NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-ex-mideast3nov04,0,2270037.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Dozens of Palestinian gunmen holed up in a mosque ringed by Israeli troops and tanks escaped today after the Israelis opened fire toward a group of women who were rushing toward the shrine to serve as human shields. Two of the women were killed on the third day of fighting in the Gaza Strip town of Beit Hanoun.

The dramatic end to the 15-hour standoff was a setback for Israeli forces that had stormed the town Wednesday to root out stockpiles of crude Kassam rockets and the militants who launch them into Israel. With Israelis occupying most of Beit Hanoun, the militants had taken refuge Thursday in the Nasir mosque and exchanged fire throughout the day and night.

Most of the gunmen belong to the armed wing of Hamas, the Islamist movement that governs the Palestinian territories. Israeli soldiers trying to force their surrender also hurled stun and smoke grenades at the mosque and knocked down one of its outer walls with a bulldozer late Thursday, weakening the entire structure, residents of the town said.

At that point, the militants devised an escape plan, according to Abu Ubaida, a Hamas spokesman. This morning, the Hamas radio station appealed to women in the town of 37,000 to converge on the mosque to protect the fighters, who Ubaida said numbered 73.

.......Well I'm not really sure what outsiders will think of this, but its not Israels fault if these women die. If you (you= dumb arab women) are retarded enough to put yourself in front of an army to protect terrorists they're after, you need to expect the worst.

What do you guys think about this story?

Sounds like a "Darwin Awards" story to me. ;)

holy crap! a-rab women care for the safety of their brothers in arms even more than aryian women. how can this travesty against ethnic stereotypes of barbarism and low morals be?!!

Nothing new, really. Saddam did the same thing, putting arsenals under hospitals & day care centers.

It's a common tactic to run for the nearest mosque after firing upon a group of soldiers. The thought being that it's a 'safe zone', like when you're playing 'tag'.

Pretty much the definition of Asymmetical Warfare aka Guerrilla Warfare. Nothing really new.

humans dont make very good shields the break an fall apart too easy, now kevlar there's something that can stop a bullet

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-ex-mideast3nov04,0,2270037.story?coll=la-home-headlines



.......Well I'm not really sure what outsiders will think of this, but its not Israels fault if these women die. If you (you= dumb arab women) are retarded enough to put yourself in front of an army to protect terrorists they're after, you need to expect the worst.

What do you guys think about this story?

somehow if women had done this during the american revolution I dont think you'd be calling them stupid. one man's terrorist is another's freedom-fighter. I think it was admirable of the women. you can only push people so far - and the israeli's crossed the line a generation ago. no side that uses violence is right - but if it's a case of who-hit-who-first, the palestinians are on the 'justified' side.

holy crap! a-rab women care for the safety of their brothers in arms even more than aryian women. how can this travesty against ethnic stereotypes of barbarism and low morals be?!!

not even necessarily "in arms" - they could've been related.

holy crap! a-rab women care for the safety of their brothers in arms even more than aryian women. how can this travesty against ethnic stereotypes of barbarism and low morals be?!!

.....Uh...what are you talking about..."aryan" women?:confused:

.....Uh...what are you talking about..."aryan" women?:confused:

yeah, jews aren't aryan. that was kind of an issue for them. they're semetic - like the a-rabs.

somehow if women had done this during the american revolution I dont think you'd be calling them stupid. one man's terrorist is another's freedom-fighter. I think it was admirable of the women. you can only push people so far - and the israeli's crossed the line a generation ago. no side that uses violence is right - but if it's a case of who-hit-who-first, the palestinians are on the 'justified' side.
Uh.....how are the Palestinians on the justified side? You know the Arabs seek the destruction of Israel, while Israel seeks only its survival and DOESNT seek the destruction of the arab world. You know its the arab world that attacked first after Israel was created by the U.N. resolution....Dont give me this justified crap. You go on thinking its admirable that arab women are helping terrorists.....but why dont you go to Israel, see your beloved terrorists in action, and then see how admirable it is.



not even necessarily "in arms" - they could've been related.
Ah, so then you all dont have a problem with Israel killing all these brainwashed idiots helping terrorists escape, whom the media portray as "innocent women".

yeah, jews aren't aryan. that was kind of an issue for them. they're semetic - like the a-rabs.

What are you even talking about...what does this even have to do with the OP....:confused:

dieing is another downside of human sheilds, now phone books they can stop just about anything

Yeah, the Israelis were obviously out of line firing on the women, and they knew it 'cause they lied about men being in the crowd to try to give themselves justification, but it's war. What can you do? If there's a big guy mugging someone at knife point and you, with no weapons or training, are an uninvolved observer who decides to get involved, and you get stabbed to death, then perhaps you're heroic, but you're still pretty dumb.

Uh.....how are the Palestinians on the justified side? You know the Arabs seek the destruction of Israel, while Israel seeks only its survival and DOESNT seek the destruction of the arab world. You know its the arab world that attacked first after Israel was created by the U.N. resolution....Dont give me this justified crap. You go on thinking its admirable that arab women are helping terrorists.....but why dont you go to Israel, see your beloved terrorists in action, and then see how admirable it is.

my beloved terrorists? I make no distinction between the armed forces of any nation and terrorists - and I can assure you I don't like either of them. the arabs seek an end to being treated as second class citizens in a region they've occupied for 2000 years. you wouldn't be fighting any less violently if 50 years ago a bunch of cherokee had suddenly appeared in your homeland and started bulldozing houses and setting up checkpoints manned by people who didn't even speak your language, forcing you to quit your job or stop going to school. there isn't a damn thing the palestinians have done to the israelis that the israeli's haven't done right back at them - but with better funding and spin-coverage.

Ah, so then you all dont have a problem with Israel killing all these brainwashed idiots helping terrorists escape, whom the media portray as "innocent women".

if they were brainwashed, they *are* innocent. and yes, I have a problem whenever one person kills another.

What are you even talking about...what does this even have to do with the OP....:confused:

I was agreeing with you, chum.

They knew what they were getting into when they ran into the line of fire. I think they saw the guys with guns. I don't feel bad for them. Although the stupidity does make me a little :confused: :rolleyes:

If the women willingly put themselves in the line of fire, treat them as combatants.

.....Uh...what are you talking about..."aryan" women?:confused:

yeah, jews aren't aryan. that was kind of an issue for them. they're semetic - like the a-rabs.

umm yeh, i know. i wasn't making any analogy to the jews. if i was i would have said so. i was making an analogy to TAI who's about as aryan as they get. unless i got him mixed up with someone else, which i don't think i did. although i am drunk and my eyes are beginning to vibrate *shrugs and goes to bed*

umm yeh, i know. i wasn't making any analogy to the jews. if i was i would have said so. i was making an analogy to TAI who's about as aryan as they get. unless i got him mixed up with someone else, which i don't think i did. although i am drunk and my eyes are beginning to vibrate *shrugs and goes to bed*

I figured. I just felt like adding my 2 cents.

They knew what they were getting into when they ran into the line of fire. I think they saw the guys with guns. I don't feel bad for them. Although the stupidity does make me a little :confused: :rolleyes:

If the women willingly put themselves in the line of fire, treat them as combatants.

it wasn't stupidity. they probably loved men who they knew were about to die - they knowingly risked their lives to save them.

Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.

what they did is commendable. what the men they were saving did is irrelevent, as far as the value of what those women did. they were not "stupid" - I'd like to see any one of you have the balls to run unarmed in front of a hostile military to try and save someone you loved.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-ex-mideast3nov04,0,2270037.story?coll=la-home-headlines



.......Well I'm not really sure what outsiders will think of this, but its not Israels fault if these women die. If you (you= dumb arab women) are retarded enough to put yourself in front of an army to protect terrorists they're after, you need to expect the worst.

What do you guys think about this story?

1st the gunmen werent terrorists, they were fighting the IDF. 2nd those women are nothing short of Martyrs and brave to do what they did. The IDF and the other hand is always looking to shoot women(and children) and took advantage of an opportunity here. I could imagine they were eager to do so here because it allows them to use the PR to spin this.

they were not "stupid"

No, they were totally stupid. Very brave, sure, but very stupid to not even have brought a knife to a gun fight. Fortunately for them, their gambit paid off and their goal was accomplished. I disagree with their cause, but that has no real bearing on the issue.

No, they were totally stupid. Very brave, sure, but very stupid to not even have brought a knife to a gun fight. Fortunately for them, their gambit paid off and their goal was accomplished. I disagree with their cause, but that has no real bearing on the issue.

they were only stupid if they valued their lives more than the cause they were trying to further. I don't think this culture has the same delusions of self-grandeur that ours does. they probably didn't care. apathy isn't the same as stupidity.

If the women willingly put themselves in the line of fire, treat them as combatants.

Though the article seemed very biased to me, it didn't sound like they put themselves directly in the line of fire.

The soldiers turned from the mosque and opened fire.

That, and the apparent lie told by the Israeli soldiers to attempt to cover their mistake and their subsequent failure to fire on a crowd of 200 who DID put themselves in the line of fire and actually rushed the Israeli position seem to point the "shame on you" finger at the Israelis in this scenario.

Again, this is one apparently biased article written by people who obviously weren't there, and if the women HAD been armed or had a bomb on them or something (which is notoriously difficult to discern from the position the Israelis were in) then the story would be about how the IDF entered into a skirmish with suicide soldiers and what meanies those Muslims are to put their women in such a position.

they were only stupid if they valued their lives more than the cause they were trying to further. I don't think this culture has the same delusions of self-grandeur that ours does. they probably didn't care. apathy isn't the same as stupidity.

Valuing or believing in a cause has nothing to do with it. If you see a fire, and you know it's hot, and you stick your hand in it anyway, you're stupid. Plain and simple. It has nothing to do with self-grandeur or apathy or what they thought they were doing. Their desire to further their cause even at the expense of their own lives makes them brave. The extremely high-risk way in which they went about furthering their cause when it is very likely that other options were available had they been properly considered makes them stupid.

Valuing or believing in a cause has nothing to do with it. If you see a fire, and you know it's hot, and you stick your hand in it anyway, you're stupid. Plain and simple. It has nothing to do with self-grandeur or apathy or what they thought they were doing. Their desire to further their cause even at the expense of their own lives makes them brave. The extremely high-risk way in which they went about furthering their cause when it is very likely that other options were available had they been properly considered makes them stupid.

I disagree. from most perspectives it's illogical, perhaps, but that doesn't mean stupid - particularly not in a religious context.

Maybe the israelis fared so poorly in lebanon because their troops are only trained to shoot unarmed women?

If the women willingly put themselves in the line of fire, treat them as combatants.
Yup, mowing down unarmed women makes for great press. :rolleyes:

They obviously feel very strong about their cause. Perhaps finding out why, might help find a solution to the never ending violence.

The extremely high-risk way in which they went about furthering their cause when it is very likely that other options were
available had they been properly considered makes them stupid.

Question of the day. Given the resources available to the people who ended up as human shields, what would you have done? I'm assuming that they didn't have access to anything more than your average kitchen knife and/or brick. As much as weapons have been prolific around the ME, I doubt that you could find an AK or hand grenade lying on the street somewhere.

Question of the day. Given the resources available to the people who ended up as human shields, what would you have done? I'm assuming that they didn't have access to anything more than your average kitchen knife and/or brick. As much as weapons have been prolific around the ME, I doubt that you could find an AK or hand grenade lying on the street somewhere.

and even if they could find those things lying around - it would only escalate the conflict (if that's even possible at this point, short of going nuclear) - I commend them for doing what they did *unarmed*, though I'm not sure if it was an act of passive resistance or just desperation and poverty...either way it's better they didn't use weapons too. the last thing this conflict needs is for even more people to grab guns and get involved that way.

and even if they could find those things lying around - it would only escalate the conflict (if that's even possible at this point, short of going nuclear) - I commend them for doing what they did *unarmed*, though I'm not sure if it was an act of passive resistance or just desperation and poverty...either way it's better they didn't use weapons too. the last thing this conflict needs is for even more people to grab guns and get involved that way.

At the expense of sounding flip, I would humbly submit that *weapons* are rather relative. That region could be bombed into the stone-age; they would throw rocks at each other.

At the expense of sounding flip, I would humbly submit that *weapons* are rather relative. That region could be bombed into the stone-age; they would throw rocks at each other.

heh. after reading the thread about the gay rights rally in jerusalem...I suggest we drop alot of gay people into the region. everyone will forget they hate eachother long enough to lynch all the gay people. if we continuously feed the gay people into the region for a long enough period of time, they'll forget they hated eachother and live in peace.

nothing like a mutual enemy to forge a friendship...

heh. after reading the thread about the gay rights rally in jerusalem...I suggest we drop alot of gay people into the region. everyone will forget they hate eachother long enough to lynch all the gay people. if we continuously feed the gay people into the region for a long enough period of time, they'll forget they hated eachother and live in peace.

nothing like a mutual enemy to forge a friendship...
I understand that they would rather Nuts from Vegan. :eek:

heh. after reading the thread about the gay rights rally in jerusalem...I suggest we drop alot of gay people into the region. everyone will forget they hate eachother long enough to lynch all the gay people. if we continuously feed the gay people into the region for a long enough period of time, they'll forget they hated eachother and live in peace.

nothing like a mutual enemy to forge a friendship...

Well, the problem I see with that...is that most gay people I know tend to avoid hostile conflict...however, if you want to recruit the 'Gay Brigade', hell, I won't stop you...Israeli Customs may, but I won't...:D

Maybe the 'Gay Brigade' could overwhelm them with a less-than-lethal weapon such as 'immobilizing hair gel' ? I mean, those Middle-Eastern types tend to have a lot of hair...could make for a rather 'sticky situation'. :)

Well, the problem I see with that...is that most gay people I know tend to avoid hostile conflict...however, if you want to recruit the 'Gay Brigade', hell, I won't stop you...Israeli Customs may, but I won't...:D

Maybe the 'Gay Brigade' could overwhelm them with a less-than-lethal weapon such as 'immobilizing hair gel' ? I mean, those Middle-Eastern types tend to have a lot of hair...could make for a rather 'sticky situation'. :)

stop fighting eachother or we'll...have tedius intellectual conversations with you and/or throw glitter at you and/or turn you into dancing art snobs!

Shame on the Israelis... for not taking the initiative and shooting those women. Welcome to war; we shoot combatants.

Shame on the Israelis... for not taking the initiative and shooting those women. Welcome to war; we shoot combatants.

welcome to ward nine. we worship orange juice.

doesn't mean it has to be that way.

doesn't mean it has to be that way.

No, it has to. That's war.

stop fighting eachother or we'll...have tedius intellectual conversations with you and/or throw glitter at you and/or turn you into dancing art snobs!

As an overtly hetero male with several gay friends, I really do see that's how it would go down...not to mention the "we'll turn you into a karokae (sic) dj" card that could be played...

Shame on the Israelis... for not taking the initiative and shooting those women. Welcome to war; we shoot combatants.

The objective of War is to kill people and break their toys. Anything else is bullshit.

Just the dominant-male-monkey-motherfucker-vet coming out in me...

Dozens of Palestinian gunmen holed up in a mosque ringed by Israeli troops and tanks escaped today after the Israelis opened fire toward a group of women who were rushing toward the shrine to serve as human shields. Two of the women were killed on the third day of fighting in the Gaza Strip town of Beit Hanoun

They were shot at as they were running away. There was no men amongst them at the time. Human shilelds dont work against people who consider you to be a legitamatae target.

.......Well I'm not really sure what outsiders will think of this, but its not Israels fault if these women die. If you (you= dumb arab women) are retarded enough to put yourself in front of an army to protect terrorists they're after, you need to expect the worst.

Putting oneself in front of an Army whose snipers have no compunction in targeting children, in order to protect others isn't "dumb", its bravery. Being an all round bigot, you presumably are unable to appreciate the fact. "No greater love hath...." etc.

Uh.....how are the Palestinians on the justified side?".

Because they were (a)thrown out of their country and then (b) brutally occupied by the people who threw them out for 40 years in a semi-apartheid state.

while Israel seeks only its survival and DOESNT seek the destruction of the arab world.".

Just a bigger country.


You know its the arab world that attacked first after Israel was created by the U.N. resolution....".

And how does this justify building colonies on Arab land some 50 years later?



Dont give me this justified crap. You go on thinking its admirable that arab women are helping terrorists.....but why dont you go to Israel, see your beloved terrorists in action, and then see how admirable it is.....".

I fail to see how distance would lessen the injustice of the occupation. From what I've heard from those who've been there, it actually only increases ones support for armed resistance.


Ah, so then you all dont have a problem with Israel killing all these brainwashed idiots helping terrorists escape, whom the media portray as "innocent women".

The men apparently escaped due to the confusion caused by the IDF bringing its military prowess to bear on the unarmed women, bravely gunning two of this deadly foe.

Why is it that you call them "brainwashed"? Are you unable to acknowledge selfless self sacrifice?


Maybe the israelis fared so poorly in lebanon because their troops are only trained to shoot unarmed women?".

O no. They can shoot unarmed peacekeepers, children and men too. From a helicopter or tank they can even shoot at men with small arms or in CARS!

No, it has to. That's war.

and not to be cliché, but it's good for nothing. if every single israeli or every single palestinian was killed by the opposing side, this conflict wouldn't be over. my point is that it doesn't have to be *war*, not that war doesn't have to involve killing people. there is absolutely no situation like this that doesn't have a precedent in which non-violent resistance has worked.

somehow if women had done this during the american revolution I dont think you'd be calling them stupid. one man's terrorist is another's freedom-fighter. I think it was admirable of the women. you can only push people so far - and the israeli's crossed the line a generation ago. no side that uses violence is right - but if it's a case of who-hit-who-first, the palestinians are on the 'justified' side.


One mans terrorist is NOT another mans freedom fighter. A freedom fighter will only attack those who directly opress him/her. A terrorist will kill anyone and everyone whose death would service their cause further. Its this sort of thing that encorages the horrific idea of moral equivlence between terrorists and armed forces.

and not to be cliché, but it's good for nothing. if every single israeli or every single palestinian was killed by the opposing side, this conflict wouldn't be over. my point is that it doesn't have to be *war*, not that war doesn't have to involve killing people. there is absolutely no situation like this that doesn't have a precedent in which non-violent resistance has worked.

Actually, if sanctions were applied, it could be done without anyone having to be killed.

I wish that muslims would just stop blaming israel for everything.

I wish that muslims would just stop blaming israel for everything.

That has what to do with this thread so far...?

That has what to do with this thread so far...?

well, its that the muslims will prolly blame israel.

well, its that the muslims will prolly blame israel.

Well, it wasnt the Mexicans.....and Israel is not occupied by unarmed Arab Women....

Actually, if sanctions were applied, it could be done without anyone having to be killed.

but then millenialist american lunatics wouldn't be able to use creatively-interpreted biblical prophesy as a political bargaining chip anymore! the americans care about israel not as a sovereign nation or as fellow human beings, but as prophesy-fodder.

Well, it wasnt the Mexicans.....and Israel is not occupied by unarmed Arab Women....

that made me laugh. I'm not sure if that should, but when the whole world's going to hell, laughter is as good an option as any I suppose...

Maybe the israelis fared so poorly in lebanon because their troops are only trained to shoot unarmed women?

Yeah, or maybe it had something to do with the fact the terrorists were hiding behind unarmed women, and the israeli army isnt "allowed" to shoot people, even if they are aiding terrorists...
("hiding behind unarmed women" can be substituted for anything you like, such as "firing rockets from a refugee camp")

The israeli army was *very* nice in not just leveling the cities

Yeah, or maybe it had something to do with the fact the terrorists were hiding behind unarmed women, and the israeli army isnt "allowed" to shoot people, even if they are aiding terrorists...
("hiding behind unarmed women" can be substituted for anything you like, such as "firing rockets from a refugee camp")

The israeli army was *very* nice in not just leveling the cities

I've always thought that, too. every time someone doesn't slaughter everyone I know, I pause and smile, thinking "how very kind." :)

Yeah, or maybe it had something to do with the fact the terrorists were hiding behind unarmed women, and the israeli army isnt "allowed" to shoot people, even if they are aiding terrorists...
("hiding behind unarmed women" can be substituted for anything you like, such as "firing rockets from a refugee camp")

The israeli army was *very* nice in not just leveling the cities

I've seen the footage of when the women were shot. There was nobody hiding behind them at the time. Thats because they were running......

but then millenialist american lunatics wouldn't be able to use creatively-interpreted biblical prophesy as a political bargaining chip anymore! the americans care about israel not as a sovereign nation or as fellow human beings, but as prophesy-fodder.



Or a "valuable strategic ally". Like Iraq was. Or Panama under Noriega, Chile under Pinochet...then one day they are no longer of use....

Pity we have no Arabs in Jesuites country... These women are excellent, good material!
We agree to see anyone responsible up to the front to fight the enemy, that's great.
By the way the only excuse is that the soldier who killed the women had the order to shoot these female monsters.
The guy to trial is the chief who said to kill anything who's not of our religion.
In their country they have women soldier, you can kill them, why not an enemy woman?

I prefer to fuck a woman soldier or an enemy woman, but some prefer to kill.
That's a metaphysical question I think.

Jesuites has no enemy, no war and we all are the soldiers of our Lord.
Our Lord said go and multiply, we do. A war is not the best way.

By the way they knew when killing these women they will have more trouble, why did they did it?

If the people they were defending go out and launch 10 rockets which hit Tel Aviv, do you really think that those women are not complict?

The israeli army was *very* nice in not just leveling the cities
Not completely leveling them anyway. That would probably make them look like dicks to the entire world, not just the Muslim Middle East.

If the people they were defending go out and launch 10 rockets which hit Tel Aviv, do you really think that those women are not complict?

Only in the same way any Israeli woman married to a soldier is.

Only in the same way any Israeli woman married to a soldier is.

Isralie women do not go out protecting the tanks, thats completely diffrent. They could of been women or men but the fact is they were protecting murderers.

The diffrence between the Palestinian terrorists and the Isralie millitary is that the Isralies only attempt to kill those who are trying to kill their civilians.
The Palestinian terrorists attempt to kill civilians indiscriminately in order to create fear in the Isralies which would lead to pressure on the poltical establishment in Israel

Isralie women do not go out protecting the tanks, thats completely diffrent. They could of been women or men but the fact is they were protecting murderers.

The diffrence between the Palestinian terrorists and the Isralie millitary is that the Isralies only attempt to kill those who are trying to kill their civilians.
The Palestinian terrorists attempt to kill civilians indiscriminately in order to create fear in the Isralies which would lead to pressure on the poltical establishment in Israel

http://web5.maktoob.com/blog_maktoob/user_files/Donia_elhob/images/israeli-girls-bombs3_580x435.jpg

those bombs look really capable of discerning the difference between a combatant and a civilian.

http://web5.maktoob.com/blog_maktoob/user_files/Donia_elhob/images/israeli-girls-bombs3_580x435.jpg

those bombs look really capable of discerning the difference between a combatant and a civilian.

And where does the intellegence order them sent.

Is it the Isralies fault if the combatants hide amoung civilians to avoid being hit. What do you expect Israel to do? Ignore them

Isralie women do not go out protecting the tanks, thats completely diffrent.

They marry men who do. They stay married to men who do. There are also women in the Israeli army.


They could of been women or men but the fact is they were protecting murderers.

Same as one could say about Israelis.


The diffrence between the Palestinian terrorists and the Isralie millitary is that the Isralies only attempt to kill those who are trying to kill their civilians..

This did not happen inside Israel.


The Palestinian terrorists attempt to kill civilians indiscriminately in order to create fear in the Isralies which would lead to pressure on the poltical establishment in Israel

Almost exactly like - but not as violently effective as - the 200 plus killed by Israel in its raids on Gaza in the last few months.

And where does the intellegence order them sent.

Is it the Isralies fault if the combatants hide amoung civilians to avoid being hit. What do you expect Israel to do? Ignore them

What makes you think that Israel is trying to hit "combatants" all the time?

And where does the intellegence order them sent.

Is it the Isralies fault if the combatants hide amoung civilians to avoid being hit. What do you expect Israel to do? Ignore them

perhaps israel could stop their flagrant human right's abuses and maybe people wouldn't be upset enough to strap bombs to themselves and go crazy? the israeli's aren't doing themselves any favours, killing civilians like that. how many brothers would you watch die before trying to retaliate against the people who did it?

umm yeh, i know. i wasn't making any analogy to the jews. if i was i would have said so. i was making an analogy to TAI who's about as aryan as they get. unless i got him mixed up with someone else, which i don't think i did. although i am drunk and my eyes are beginning to vibrate *shrugs and goes to bed*


Oh....really? So please, explain to me how I am as "aryan as they get"....is it because I have blond hair?:rolleyes:

There's nothing wrong with acting as human shields, but it's hardly Israel's fault if those people are killed or injured. What's the point here, exactly?

They marry men who do. They stay married to men who do. There are also women in the Israeli army.

Marrying somone is not the same as acting as their human shield


Same as one could say about Israelis.

No it couldnt. The diffrence is that the Isralies are only trying to kill those who want to kill them (IE the terrorists). The terrorists want to kill anyone and everyone whose death advances their cause


This did not happen inside Israel.

It happened in response to the acts that those who they were protecting commited against Israel


Almost exactly like - but not as violently effective as - the 200 plus killed by Israel in its raids on Gaza in the last few months.

It is not the fault of the Isralies if the terrorists would seek to protect themselves by going about hiding amoung civilians.

They marry men who do. They stay married to men who do. There are also women in the Israeli army.

Marrying somone is not the same as acting as their human shield


Same as one could say about Israelis.

No it couldnt. The diffrence is that the Isralies are only trying to kill those who want to kill them (IE the terrorists). The terrorists want to kill anyone and everyone whose death advances their cause


This did not happen inside Israel.

It happened in response to the acts that those who they were protecting commited against Israel


Almost exactly like - but not as violently effective as - the 200 plus killed by Israel in its raids on Gaza in the last few months.

It is not the fault of the Isralies if the terrorists would seek to protect themselves by going about hiding amoung civilians.

There's nothing wrong with acting as human shields, but it's hardly Israel's fault if those people are killed or injured. What's the point here, exactly?
Well you and I, and any sane person would think that, but you'd be suprised what the arabs and the pro-arabs response to this is....simply scan Nodinas respones if you want a quick look....though be careful, it may make you sick to your stomach.

somehow if women had done this during the american revolution I dont think you'd be calling them stupid. one man's terrorist is another's freedom-fighter. I think it was admirable of the women. you can only push people so far - and the israeli's crossed the line a generation ago.



actually yes i still would, leave the fighting to the soldiers, no need for bloodshed that can avoided. Thos woman are selfish now their kids dont have a mommy and husbands dont have wifes and so on.

And none of the sh!t would happen if they would listen to the UN and put down their weapons and stop shelling the jewish state, hell i hate people does not mean i am goin to shoot at them.

somehow if women had done this during the american revolution I dont think you'd be calling them stupid. one man's terrorist is another's freedom-fighter. I think it was admirable of the women. you can only push people so far - and the israeli's crossed the line a generation ago. no side that uses violence is right - but if it's a case of who-hit-who-first, the palestinians are on the 'justified' side.

nah, during the Revolutionary war, the women were tending the soldiers wounds, intercepting British communications, and some even fought along side soldiers against the British. http://userpages.aug.com/captbarb/femvets.html

Is it the Isralies fault if the combatants hide amoung civilians to avoid being hit. What do you expect Israel to do? Ignore them

Israeli doctrine has been for quite some time heavily influenced by the concept of communal punishment. Since a suicide bomber cannot be punished or fought, IDF reprisals take the form of levelling the community from where the bomber supposedly came from regardless of guilt or association. Fatalities have been noted to occur during these punitive strikes, and it is AFTER the fact.

To put it in another example, it would be like having the police torch your neighborhood because some nutjob from there killed one of theirs and shot himself before they could apprehend him.

The IDF stated reasoning is that by conducting communal punishments like these, they will discourage future suicide bombers. Note, this whole concept relies entirely on the state of fear and terror in order to achieve their goals, making the IDF conduct not all that very much different from a terrorist.

"I have a nuclear bomb in your city. If even one person misbehaves, I will detonate it and let all 1,500,000 of you die."

A bit more extreme of version of their message, but it is sufficiently graphic to get my point across.

...Or, perhaps IDF is trying to make the cost (to the arabs) of a suicide bombing so unbearable, that terrorists think twice before trying to "save"* their people.


*Save would refer to gettng them all killed, should the terrorist carry out an act of terror.

.........Makes perfect sense to me.

It still uses the doctrine of terror and fear to achieve goals. Fear of loss of homes, family, life and livelihood. Terrorism throughout history has almost always worked by creating fear on any or all of the four aspects. As such, one can state that the IDF DOES use terrorism to achieve its goals. Saying otherwise is simply so much meaningless blather.

To put it simply, if you would agree that the method works, you would also have to agree to the use of excessive police force in controlling areas with high criminal instances. This could mean anything from mass arrests to complete destruction of the area.

Otherwise, you would be a hypocrite.

Nevertheless, evidence has proven that the doctrine either does not work, or has an extremely limited effect. If you continue to support a doctrine that has failed, it would appear that you have a learning impediment no?

I wish that muslims would just stop blaming israel for everything.
I do too, Swila. Unfortunatly, Islamic hatred of Israel is rooted VERY deep in the Muslim world/soceity, and I doubt we will be seeing a change soon.

To put it simply, if you would agree that the method works, you would also have to agree to the use of excessive police force in controlling areas with high criminal instances. This could mean anything from mass arrests to complete destruction of the area.

Otherwise, you would be a hypocrite.
...Uh..yeah we should police areas with high crime more than areas with low crime. DUH!
Nevertheless, evidence has proven that the doctrine either does not work, or has an extremely limited effect. If you continue to support a doctrine that has failed, it would appear that you have a learning impediment no?

Please..this method works MUCH better than, oh, say, letting the terrorists activities go on unpunished.

I've always thought that, too. every time someone doesn't slaughter everyone I know, I pause and smile, thinking "how very kind." :)

Well, maybe if that someone was holding a semi-automatic and being kicked by everyone you know, maybe you should

Not completely leveling them anyway. That would probably make them look like dicks to the entire world, not just the Muslim Middle East.

But terrorist groups supplied by the Muslim Middle East are free to launch missiles at purely civilian targets :) they're not democratic, they dont know any better, Lebanon is a democracy though, but it doesnt have any control, so we should let them off that

I've seen the footage of when the women were shot. There was nobody hiding behind them at the time. Thats because they were running......
It was later revealed that there were two of the men in women's clothes in the crowd.


What makes you think that Israel is trying to hit "combatants" all the time?
Cause Israel LOVEs wasting ammo and million dollar bombs on people that have nothing to do with it.


I just wish the sucide bombers would just give up. They will NEVER get their nation. NEVER. Especially the way they act.

To put it simply, if you would agree that the method works, you would also have to agree to the use of excessive police force in controlling areas with high criminal instances. This could mean anything from mass arrests to complete destruction of the area.

Otherwise, you would be a hypocrite.

...Uh..yeah we should police areas with high crime more than areas with low crime. DUH!
I can't see how you could have missed the point. To summarise your earlier point "If people do something wrong (suicide bombing), punish their entire community, so they accept it is too expensive to do such actions, and will stop doing it."

The Non Aligned States is saying, well if that's your position, then that solution should apply for crime. So if a criminal comes from your area, destroy the entire area. Your solution isn't more police, as you replied in a degoratory fashion, it is destroy the community. If you think that Dahmer's entire state shouldn't be all killed, explain how you aren't being hypocritical? :confused:

Please..this method works MUCH better than, oh, say, letting the terrorists activities go on unpunished.
How? For every terrorist killed, you create more terrorists. For every innocent person killed, who the invading powers thought was a terrorist, you create more terrorists. That persons brother, father, sister, mother, etc will take up arms. You're dealing with suicide bombers here. The only way to make them stop, is to give them something to live for. If you take away peoples reason for living, you'll create even more suicide bombers. Look at a few video clips of parents with parts of their children, and you'll hopefully get a better understanding. Think how you would feel, and what you would do if you had to bury your children.

I was going to suggest that we move all the Arabs from the lands they are currently being persecuted in, and give them a state of their very own in their ancestral homeland where they wouldn't have to worry about somebody shooting them in the back.

Then I rembered that their in their ancestral homeland, and current events are the latest result of an effort to do that.

Also, the biblical promise to abraham promises lands to his descendants. The Arabs are sons of abraham, through his son ishmael (if I recall correctly). Therefore they have a claim to the promised land to.

Marrying somone is not the same as acting as their human shield.

The person made the point that these women were complicit with the men by going to their aid. Thats what I was referring to


No it couldnt. The diffrence is that the Isralies are only trying to kill those who want to kill them (IE the terrorists). The terrorists want to kill anyone and everyone whose death advances their cause.

Yet when Israel attacked Lebanon amongst those who were killed was a university lecturer who had voiced support for Hezbollah.....and killing "terrorists" advances the Israeli cause....


It happened in response to the acts that those who they were protecting commited against Israel.

Which were in turn a response to the illegal occupation and settlements.


And none of the sh!t would happen if they would listen to the UN and put down their weapons and stop shelling the jewish state, hell i hate people does not mean i am goin to shoot at them.

Why doesnt Israel listen to the UN and withdraw?


Or, perhaps IDF is trying to make the cost (to the arabs) of a suicide bombing so unbearable, that terrorists think twice before trying to "save"* their people..

There were no suicide bombings involved here. Nor are mass punishments confined to responding to such attacks.


It was later revealed that there were two of the men in women's clothes in the crowd...

By who and is there photgraphic proof?


Cause Israel LOVEs wasting ammo and million dollar bombs on people that have nothing to do with it....

Or, as was put earlier by Non-aligned states, its a tactic to inflict mass punishment and create a state of terror. Its tactic that was common in colonial times when trying to subdue the "natives".

You previously challenged my figures for percentage of landownership in 1945/6/7 in the Palestinian mandate, and were to revert with alternative numbers. I still await your response. Feel free to post here or start a new thread.

...Uh..yeah we should police areas with high crime more than areas with low crime. DUH!

Since you appear to be having a mental block, allow me to give you a much more personal experience.

Let us say that your neighbor went and shot up a supermarket. He gets killed.

The next day, police SWAT vans arrive, place you under arrest and demolish your home. Later, when you are released, there is no compensation, no apology, not even a criminal charge. Your life was ruined simply because you happened to live in the same region as the criminal.

Now obviously you must have missed the point. Or you are suffering from some kind of mental deficiency that would make me wonder how you are capable of stringing together words to make a coherent sentence. Or performing basic maths.


Please..this method works MUCH better than, oh, say, letting the terrorists activities go on unpunished.

And how does it work better? Does it deter further bombings? No, it does not. Does it make the guerilla attacks any less frequent? No, it does not.

Does it give more incentive to recruit disaffected and displaced people into a martyrs cause? Yes

Does it waste munitions and ordnance on a doctrine that is effectively defunct? Yes.

Does it look good on TV for brainless idiots who are either unwilling or unable to think of an effective method other than "blow em all up...we don't care who, as long as somebody gets blown up....durrrr"

Sadly, yes.

Said idiots don't believe in, or deserve, justice. Why? Because such a concept is beyond them, and they often construe revenge to be the same thing.

Should have killed every last one of them. No question.

Should have killed every last one of them. No question.

thats what I say about Israelis.

How? For every terrorist killed, you create more terrorists. For every innocent person killed, who the invading powers thought was a terrorist, you create more terrorists. That persons brother, father, sister, mother, etc will take up arms. You're dealing with suicide bombers here. The only way to make them stop, is to give them something to live for. If you take away peoples reason for living, you'll create even more suicide bombers. Look at a few video clips of parents with parts of their children, and you'll hopefully get a better understanding. Think how you would feel, and what you would do if you had to bury your children.

Yep, that explains all those Israeli terrorists. Every time innocent Israelis are killed, Islamic savages create more terrorists. Right.

You have just rehashed the biggest myth in modern international relations.

I would call those women enemy combatants. They are trying to protect those who are killing the Israelis, and if it is necessary, I would shoot. However, if the Israelis had pinned a group of women into a corner, with the terrorists fled, the Israelis would be prohibited from killing them.

I oppose the Israeli operations in Gaza chiefly because I think Israel is making a big mistake. All this is doing is making people angry at Israel.

Personally, I would offer the following prisoner exchange: Give us back our soldiers, and we will free ALL Palestinians held without charges. Gets the soldiers back, and eliminates one argument against Israel.

Oh, and regarding the claims that Israel is an illegitimate state? The initial settling was done either on unoccupied land, or land bought at exorbiant prices from Arab landlords. Then, in 1947, the UN voted to partition what Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state. The Jews accepted the plan; the Arabs did not. During the war that ensued, most of the Arab population decided that living in a war zone is bad for your health, so they left, planning to return once the Jews had lost. They left of their own free will.
Then the Jews won. The abandoned Arab homes were mostly used to house new immigrants - in particular, Jewish refugees fleeing Arab nations that had suddenly become anti-Semetic.
Had the Arabs accepted the partition plan, or at least created a reasonable alternative (given that the UN partition plan was obviously drawn up while the writers were on acid), the whole war would never have happened.

At this time, I predict that the Palestinians will probably get a nation in most of the West Bank and Gaza, as a result of either negotiations or simply Israel withdrawing from most of the West Bank. However, as both the Israeli and Palestinian governments are beset with internal troubles (corruption scandals in Israel and the Fatah-Hamas feud in Palestine), don't expect anything soon.

Given how Islamic women are treated, I wonder at what they did. I know that there are countries in the Middle East where women are respected and have a great deal of freedom (Egypt comes to mind), but, by and large, they are treated abyssmally; and the more fundamentalist the men are, the more oppressed the women are.

In any case, in a situation where the women are non-combatants, I think it's unacceptable to ask them to put themselves in that kind of situation. It's just the sort of mentality that would put an arsenal in a school.

I was impressed.

Yep, that explains all those Israeli terrorists. Every time innocent Israelis are killed, Islamic savages create more terrorists. Right.

You have just rehashed the biggest myth in modern international relations.

You have just restated the most comon spin in international relations. Have you heard about the Israeli settlers' death sqads?
Also you are less likely to take up arms if someone, say the IDF, is doing it for you. :sniper:
Finally, the Israeli's have some hope for a future. The Palestinians have none. They can't get a decent job, a home, a life, anything. This drives them towards terrorism.

I do too, Swila. Unfortunatly, Islamic hatred of Israel is rooted VERY deep in the Muslim world/soceity, and I doubt we will be seeing a change soon.

yes, it runs back to israel's ancient founding...in the misty ancient past of 1948. before that they were fine.

...Uh..yeah we should police areas with high crime more than areas with low crime. DUH!


Please..this method works MUCH better than, oh, say, letting the terrorists activities go on unpunished.

and doesn't create motive for further attacks at all...:headbang:

Well, maybe if that someone was holding a semi-automatic and being kicked by everyone you know, maybe you should

the fact someone has greater ability to maim and kill does not make their mercy any more merciful.

I was going to suggest that we move all the Arabs from the lands they are currently being persecuted in, and give them a state of their very own in their ancestral homeland where they wouldn't have to worry about somebody shooting them in the back.

Then I rembered that their in their ancestral homeland, and current events are the latest result of an effort to do that.

Also, the biblical promise to abraham promises lands to his descendants. The Arabs are sons of abraham, through his son ishmael (if I recall correctly). Therefore they have a claim to the promised land to.

incidentally, christian theology for the first 1850 years or so *never* considered the Jewish people to be "israel" - it has been standard theology across all denominations to refer to the universal Church as "Israel". even were we to turn this into a theological debate - the overwhelming majority and historical precedent says that "Israel" as a Jewish nation-state has nothing to do with christian theology.

Given how Islamic women are treated, I wonder at what they did. I know that there are countries in the Middle East where women are respected and have a great deal of freedom (Egypt comes to mind), but, by and large, they are treated abyssmally; and the more fundamentalist the men are, the more oppressed the women are.

In any case, in a situation where the women are non-combatants, I think it's unacceptable to ask them to put themselves in that kind of situation. It's just the sort of mentality that would put an arsenal in a school.

you know, in christian countries women historically haven't been treated much better. the same truth "the more fundamentalist the men..." applies to christians. living in the american bible belt, I can't say that female independance is a highly valued commodity in the churches around here.

Well, at least they're creative.

No pictures? How am I supposed to know if these women were hot enough for me to care?

I would call those women enemy combatants. They are trying to protect those who are killing the Israelis, and if it is necessary, I would shoot. However, if the Israelis had pinned a group of women into a corner, with the terrorists fled, the Israelis would be prohibited from killing them..

...if they felt like it. In Lebanon they let the Falangists at them


Oh, and regarding the claims that Israel is an illegitimate state? The initial settling was done either on unoccupied land, or land bought at exorbiant prices from Arab landlords. ..

Which amounted to a total of 7% of the area of the Palestinian mandate by 1946. Go look it up.

Then, in 1947, the UN voted to partition what Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state. The Jews accepted the plan; the Arabs did not.
..

True.

During the war that ensued, most of the Arab population decided that living in a war zone is bad for your health, so they left, planning to return once the Jews had lost. They left of their own free will...

Untrue. The vast majority fled because of Israeli violence or fear of Israeli violence. There was no organised exodus. See Benny Morris "the Palestinian refugee problem".


Then the Jews won. The abandoned Arab homes were mostly used to house new immigrants - in particular, Jewish refugees fleeing Arab nations that had suddenly become anti-Semetic....

True, though many Arab villages were actually just ploughed into the ground.


Had the Arabs accepted the partition plan, or at least created a reasonable alternative (given that the UN partition plan was obviously drawn up while the writers were on acid), the whole war would never have happened.....

Firstly it was the neighbouring Arab states that attacked. not the Palestinians, who had been disarmed in the Aftermath of the great Arab revolt of 1936. Secondly, as the UN plan required the Arabs to essentially give a vast tract of the Area without much reward for their trouble, it was never going to be accepted.


At this time, I predict that the Palestinians will probably get a nation in most of the West Bank and Gaza, as a result of either negotiations or simply Israel withdrawing from most of the West Bank. However, as both the Israeli and Palestinian governments are beset with internal troubles (corruption scandals in Israel and the Fatah-Hamas feud in Palestine), don't expect anything soon.

And having lost one country, why should they have "most" of the West Bank? There is now a Jewish state. For fairness there should be a palestinian one, including all of the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem and Gaza, the Golan going to either Syria or the new state, to be decided by plebisicite of the Arab population in that Area.

the fact someone has greater ability to maim and kill does not make their mercy any more merciful.

Actually it does, a very weak nation might not do anything only out of fear, the fact is, Israel has as much right to hate the terrorists as the terrorists have to hate Israel. Im sure there would be a lot more maiming and killing if everyone had the ability to commit mass-murder. The jews and muslims have hated each other since as far back as i care to research, but Israel is the one being merciful, if the rest of the middle east had nukes then im sure they would destroy Israel...

Actually it does, a very weak nation might not do anything only out of fear, the fact is, Israel has as much right to hate the terrorists as the terrorists have to hate Israel. Im sure there would be a lot more maiming and killing if everyone had the ability to commit mass-murder. The jews and muslims have hated each other since as far back as i care to research, but Israel is the one being merciful, if the rest of the middle east had nukes then im sure they would destroy Israel...

apperently "as far back as I care to remember" means about 60 years. jews and muslims have NOT been at odds until very, very recently. european christians were dozens of times harsher to jews than muslims ever were, until europeans started this whole mess by giving away someone else's homeland.

apperently "as far back as I care to remember" means about 60 years. jews and muslims have NOT been at odds until very, very recently. european christians were dozens of times harsher to jews than muslims ever were, until europeans started this whole mess by giving away someone else's homeland.

Actually they've been fighting in the middle east for thousands of years, especially over jerusalem which is a holy site for jews, muslims and christians
The israelites escaped egypt, invaded canaan and driving out lots of arabs, in turn jerusalem was sacked by arabs, as well as hundreds of smaller conflicts between jewish and arab settlers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah

http://mediaguidetoislam.sfsu.edu/intheworld/06a_conflict.htm

A few links there, although its easier to pick out info in the second one

Strange to me how unarmed, non-violent, passive resistance is considered "dumb"... I guess some people would be happier if they had engaged the soldiers in a firefight. :rolleyes:

I think it's sad that the women got killed, but I shan't blame the israeli troops for this one even if they shouldn't have killed unarmed women.

I commend the women, and hope to see more non-violent acts of protest in the future.

Oh, and the guys in the mosque was members of Hamas, yes, but they were militants - and there is no indication they were terrorists.