NationStates Jolt Archive

Australia's top Muslim cleric defiant over calls to resign (http://au.news.yahoo.com/061027/19/112ya.html)

I'm not sure if this has been discussed on NSG but recently Australians top Muslim cleric made a statement that Australia’s scantily clad women invited rape crimes against themselves.

What the article does not mention was that last year there were some (2 events i think) hugely publicised gang rapes committed by young men of Middle Eastern origin against white Australian females.

(Pardon the racial nature of this but I mean to influence only the cultural implications of his words)

Sheikh Taj Aldin al-Hilali has restated the original comments and is in damage control mode but do you guys think he should stand down from his posting a senior cleric or not.

I have to say yes because i live in the tropics of northern Australia where scantily clad women is a part of life and our culture to some extent and i believe they should be able to dress how they like without persecution or fear just as Muslim women can freely walk around in their burka’s.
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Hell yes he should resign. His beliefs have no place in this country.

He should resign if the Pope resigns.

Hell yes he should resign. His beliefs have no place in this planet.

Hell no he shouldn't resign. He is stating his opinion. Just because he goes against the grain doesn't make his beliefs invalid.

Hell no he shouldn't resign. He is stating his opinion. Just because he goes against the grain doesn't make his beliefs invalid.

His opinion is not acceptable. And he's FEEDING this opinion to his followers. He's like a mini-Hitler.

i think we should do bad things to him, and say well you put yourself in the public eye you brought it upon yourself

i'm thinking six homosexuals, two goats and an inflatable pool filled with rassberry flavoured jam.

His opinion is not acceptable. And he's FEEDING this opinion to his followers. He's like a mini-Hitler.

It's not the same he is not saying "Let's kill all the sluts.", or trying to create a super race or take over the world or anything like that. He simply believes that if you choose to dress like a complete tramp then you deserve what you get. Besides that he has a right to his opinion who are you to judge whose opinion is acceptable or not?

His opinion is not acceptable. And he's FEEDING this opinion to his followers. He's like a mini-Hitler.

The fact that you and I don't accept his opinion is no grounds for him to step down. He still can say whatever he likes.

His opinion is not acceptable. And he's FEEDING this opinion to his followers. He's like a mini-Hitler.

Let him say whatever he wants. That's what Freedom of Speech is, right? Now the second he tries to turns his words into actions, throw him in irons.

Lets face it.. his only crime is being about 30 years behind popular thinking. Its not like judges, priests and many other prominant members of the community didn't think and publically espouse almost identical ideas about rape and female dress sense as late as the 80s.. they have simply revised their ideas since or have kept quiet since then...

Having said that he really is way out of sync with with popular opinion. In my opinion disgustingly so. Might have something to do with being in Oz for 30 years and not learning english.. he has lead a pretty sheltered existance. I am guessing he just had no idea quite how out of touch he was till he got publically embarrassed.

I just don't think you can really punish a religious leader for being behind the times though.. most of religion today seems to be about returning or at least clinging onto to the "Good ol days". You just have to make sure that they understand that there are many elements of the "Good ol Days" that people just don't agree with anymore, and have no part to play in modern society.

Pat Roberts has said much worse and he hasn't resigned.

I think he should resign for pragmatic reasons.

He is a Muslim leader at a time when Muslims are looked upon with increasing suspicion in this country. These comments coming from a position of authority have only served to increase that suspicion and further justify it in the eyes of many non-Muslim Australians.

So aside from the fact that his opinion is a disgraceful one (though he is legally free to express it, certainly), but expressing it from a position from authority as he has done is only hurting his own people.

SYDNEY -- Australia's top Islamic cleric said Friday he will resign if an impartial panel rules that he was inciting rape in a recent sermon by suggesting that women who don't wear Islamic head scarves encourage sexual assault.

Sheik Taj Aldin al-Hilali, mufti of Australia since 1989, took indefinite leave on Monday after he fainted at his Sydney mosque, saying that the furor over his sermon had taken its toll on his health.

But he returned to the Lakemba Mosque and issued a media statement before preaching to worshippers who had gathered for Friday prayers.

The statement called for a panel of one judge and two lawyers to investigate claims in the media that the September sermon amounted to incitement to commit rape.

"Any person, whatever his position may be, who justifies the crime of rape or encourages it under any circumstances, or whoever degrades Australian women for their dress, is nothing but an ignorant, foolish and crazy person who does not deserve to hold any position of responsibility, be it public or private, in our Australian society," he said in the statement.

Among the measures the 65-year-old Egyptian-born Sunni cleric said he would take if the panel found his comments could incite rape were retiring from all religious work and positions.

If exonerated, the sheik said he would make a decision about his future which "will serve democracy" and enhance "coexistence and harmony between the Muslim community and its Australian society away from extremism and racial fanaticism."

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Well there ya go. BTW this was on the news an hour ago.

I think he should be stoned to death.
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What? Well, he's asking for it, what with being in the public eye AND being an idiot. Practically begging for a good pebble-pouding

I think he should be stoned to death.
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What? Well, he's asking for it, what with being in the public eye AND being an idiot. Practically begging for a good pebble-pouding

Yeah that's what people thought the first time I came to Earth.

PS: Im Jesus just so you know.

Well his comments are totally innappropriate in Australian society, but they are by no means isolated, even the most liberal Clerics preach stuff even more extreme than this. Plus you can't exactly ask the Mufti of Australia to step down for saying something inappropriate, I mean has the Pope?

Women are meat, men cats!

Yeah that's what people thought the first time I came to Earth.

PS: Im Jesus just so you know.

Zombie alert! *pulls out shotgun*. Tsch...some people just won't stay dead!:p

Yeah that's what people thought the first time I came to Earth.

They were right.


PS: Im Jesus just so you know.

I'm the risen Elvis. Good to meet you.

Bastards like him (and the pope & Pat Rubbishon, etc.) should be treated just like neo-Nazi bone heads. Beat them out of town if they don't run. Beat them dead if you can't move them.

Bastards like him (and the pope & Pat Rubbishon, etc.) should be treated just like neo-Nazi bone heads. Beat them out of town if they don't run. Beat them dead if you can't move them.

Wow, that does sound a little neo-Nazi-ish, don't you think? What makes your bloody methods better than an offensive statement?

I think he should resign from his position as the head of the Islamic faith in Australia. He has a responsibility, that comes with his position, to promote understanding, and he certainly shouldn't be condoning rape (which is how his statement comes across). However, he has a right to voice his opinion, so we'll see what happens.

Wow, that does sound a little neo-Nazi-ish, don't you think? What makes your bloody methods better than an offensive statement?I'm not gonna run you outta town or into the ground for being an asshole, but I will if you arrange for others to live out your sick shit, or live it out yourself. If you're man enough to encourage your followers to go-a-gang-raping, you're man enough face the music.

Violence breeds violence, and it damn well should. If you embrace it, be prepared to be eaten raw by it.

I'm not gonna run you outta town or into the ground for being an asshole, but I will if you arrange for others to live out your sick shit, or live it out yourself. If you're man enough to encourage your followers to go-a-gang-raping, you're man enough face the music.

Violence breeds violence, and it damn well should. If you embrace it, be prepared to be eaten raw by it.

I'm certainly not in favour of gang rape, but neither can I approve of your 'bloody-minded' attitude...as if it is ever right to treat a bad man badly. If you do that you have become the bad man.

Once you may have had justice and 'rightness' on your side, but the moment you force someone's own 'music' back upon them, you have become a perpetrator. Then someone else might want to do it to you. And someone else will do it to them. And then we have the self-destruction of the human race.

Just think about that for a bit.

I'm certainly not in favour of gang rape, but neither can I approve of your 'bloody-minded' attitude...as if it is ever right to treat a bad man badly. If you do that you have become the bad man.I'm not looking for your approval & I care nothing for your praise. I have, to the very best of my knowledge, never called myself a nice guy, and I'm not about to become one so you can justify your useless feel-good rethoric.Once you may have had justice and 'rightness' on your side, but the moment you force someone's own 'music' back upon them, you have become a perpetrator.My reaction will never be anything more or less than a reaction. For the sake of argument, let's assume the **** lived in my society. His words would be translated into the acts of others. If those acts threatens the wellbeing of myself or the society I am a part of, then I need to defend it.

Such a defence cannot be carried out by limiting freedom of speech or a couple of idiot lefties saying: "Shame on you!". The words will have no effect what so ever, other than perhaps making the oh so tolerant wankers feel good about themselves. Limiting freedom of speech simply forces creeps like the Rapist Preacher underground.

There's two alternatives left, and both are usually illegal. One is to get the entire community together & besiege the wanker untill he's so damn unpopular he'll leave the country of his own free will. Unfortunately people are too disinterested & often too scared to take that kind of stand.
Another is to get a crew together for some aggro. It's not "right" or anything of the sort, but it's what's left when you'd rather stick to bitching to your husband/wife about the headlines & elect xenophobic politicians that'll judge a major demographic on the actions of a handful.Then someone else might want to do it to you. And someone else will do it to them. And then we have the self-destruction of the human race.

Just think about that for a bit.I already said violence breeds violence & that it should. Some of us realise this & understands what it means. I don't do vendettas, nor will anyone engage in psycho shit on my behalf. Apart from having no desire to disclose my identity in a major public forum, I'm fully prepared to deal with the consequences of my actions & that's the end of it. I don't start cycles of violence, I end them.

If you want to stop people like me, criminalizing my behaviour isn't the solution. Help resolve the situations that otherwise end up requiring a violent solution. Organise. Take action. It's much more effective than violence will ever be & a fucking brilliant thing for any community to do, since it affirms shared values. And if politicians have made that illegal, besiege them too.

Couple of years ago, a naked, bleeding woman stumbled from the toilets into a full restaurent near the place I lived. When she got to the sidewalk, someone finally called the cops. No one saw or heard a fucking thing. People with followers, encouraging them to do shit like that in a society so apathetic/scared, simply cannot be accepted. It's like dumping your three year old in a lionpen. When we cannot lock up wankers responsible for creating that kind of insane violence, and you can't be arsed to take an interest, what's left to do?

I'm not looking for your approval & I care nothing for your praise. I have, to the very best of my knowledge, never called myself a nice guy, and I'm not about to become one so you can justify your useless feel-good rethoric.My reaction will never be anything more or less than a reaction. For the sake of argument, let's assume the **** lived in my society. His words would be translated into the acts of others. If those acts threatens the wellbeing of myself or the society I am a part of, then I need to defend it.

Firstly, in a discussion forum, it isn't about winning my approval, or anyone else's. It's about sharing your opinions, and presenting reasons for or against them.

But here is why I don't approve of your opinion: if I disagree with what the Muslim said, I would disagree even more if someone like you went in an stirred up a mob and had him lynched. If there is something to be done about this senior cleric, it must be done in a legal way. Your way is lawless, barbaric, and could result in more innocent people getting killed. Your way actually threatens the wellbeing of the society in which you live with an even greater violence than that of the mufti. As far as I'm concerned, I'm more opposed to actions like yours than I am of the words of the mufti's, even though I certainly would not agree with what he said.



Such a defence cannot be carried out by limiting freedom of speech or a couple of idiot lefties saying: "Shame on you!". The words will have no effect what so ever, other than perhaps making the oh so tolerant wankers feel good about themselves. Limiting freedom of speech simply forces creeps like the Rapist Preacher underground.

Obviously, freedom of speech needs to have some sort of limitation. It should never be complete freedom of speech. And it generally isn't anyway. In Australia, it is illegal to make racist remarks. A few years ago, it was all over the newspapers, and particularly over the Aussie footballers.


There's two alternatives left, and both are usually illegal. One is to get the entire community together & besiege the wanker untill he's so damn unpopular he'll leave the country of his own free will. Unfortunately people are too disinterested & often too scared to take that kind of stand.
Another is to get a crew together for some aggro. It's not "right" or anything of the sort, but it's what's left when you'd rather stick to bitching to your husband/wife about the headlines & elect xenophobic politicians that'll judge a major demographic on the actions of a handful.

I don't like your illegal alternatives. They sound quite stupid, actually. In a democracy, it is important to find the voice of the people, and to bring about justice through that. In your scenario, it looks more like an angry mob with the angriest of all leading them into wanton acts of violence, rage, and revenge. History if full of it, and this is why we have law--to avoid it.


I already said violence breeds violence & that it should. Some of us realise this & understands what it means. I don't do vendettas, nor will anyone engage in psycho shit on my behalf. Apart from having no desire to disclose my identity in a major public forum, I'm fully prepared to deal with the consequences of my actions & that's the end of it. I don't start cycles of violence, I end them.

I pity anyone who crosses you, or who even is mistaken for crossing you. They can expect no justice from you, only white anger and violence.


If you want to stop people like me, criminalizing my behaviour isn't the solution.

I think it is, actually, and then catching you and locking you up and keeping you away from all the other innocent people out there in our communities. Let people with a more legal and lawful approach keep law and order and stability in our communities.


Help resolve the situations that otherwise end up requiring a violent solution. Organise. Take action. It's much more effective than violence will ever be & a fucking brilliant thing for any community to do, since it affirms shared values. And if politicians have made that illegal, besiege them too.

That means, Mr. Mufti, that we had better remove you from your job, or people like Similization are going to come to your place and beat you to a bleeding pulp.

Heck, what if the guy actually publically denounces rape, and threatens people who commit it with being thrown out of the Muslim community, and informing the police on them. Would you still go around and beat him up?


Couple of years ago, a naked, bleeding woman stumbled from the toilets into a full restaurent near the place I lived. When she got to the sidewalk, someone finally called the cops. No one saw or heard a fucking thing. People with followers, encouraging them to do shit like that in a society so apathetic/scared, simply cannot be accepted. It's like dumping your three year old in a lionpen. When we cannot lock up wankers responsible for creating that kind of insane violence, and you can't be arsed to take an interest, what's left to do?

If I found someone raping a woman, I would everything in my power (within the law), including getting violent, in order to prevent that wicked act from continuing. I'm an athlete, and played Aussie rules in several clubs for over ten years, and I could just about take on anyone I met in the street. But even if I couldn't, I would still do what I could to help the poor woman.

However, I value the values that make our society a safe place to live. That means that any punishment must come from the community, not my individual reaction, from the law, not my arsenal of private weapons, from justice, not revenge.

The fact that you and I don't accept his opinion is no grounds for him to step down. He still can say whatever he likes.

He can say that he believes that scantaly clad women call rape upon themselves

If however in a court of law, it is the judges decision that publicsing such an opinon is an encitement to commit a crime, then yes his views can be considered unaceptable

And who exactly should make him resign?

The state? Surely it is not acceptable that religious authorities should be subservient to politicians, that's a recipe for disaster.

The mob? Oh yeah, that'd be fun, we all want to violently diposed from our jobs by the armed public...

Bah Hilaly is just a fuckwit. What more could you expect from a person dedicated to the propagation and peddling of iron age fairy tales? Just ignore him, let the leftists hang him out to dry.

He can say that he believes that scantaly clad women call rape upon themselves

If however in a court of law, it is the judges decision that publicsing such an opinon is an encitement to commit a crime, then yes his views can be considered unaceptable

it's not saying just that they invite rape but suggesting it's their fault, some perpetrators might think this absolves them from blame in the eye's of their god and this can not be a good thing.

Lets face it.. his only crime is being about 30 years behind popular thinking. Its not like judges, priests and many other prominant members of the community didn't think and publically espouse almost identical ideas about rape and female dress sense as late as the 80s.. they have simply revised their ideas since or have kept quiet since then...

Having said that he really is way out of sync with with popular opinion. In my opinion disgustingly so. Might have something to do with being in Oz for 30 years and not learning english.. he has lead a pretty sheltered existance. I am guessing he just had no idea quite how out of touch he was till he got publically embarrassed.

I just don't think you can really punish a religious leader for being behind the times though.. most of religion today seems to be about returning or at least clinging onto to the "Good ol days". You just have to make sure that they understand that there are many elements of the "Good ol Days" that people just don't agree with anymore, and have no part to play in modern society.

Agreed I find his brand of swill detestable but its not like its not something spouted by a whole slew of people around here even ... we had a campus atempted rape a few months ago and some of thoes crazy baptists that visit campus were hyping up that she was probably dressing like a whore walking to her car and was asking for it

I hear this sort of things out of all kinds of peoples mouths, I dont know why this guy is geting any more special treatment then the local priest who announced almost the same thing to the whole town

As far as I have seen, the Muslim community has dealt with him quite well. There was a lot of outrage with groups trying to foster understanding and so on, because he's made their work a lot harder.

So the Muslim community sent a delegation to him to talk about what happens next (presumably his resignation), and he conveniently had heart trouble and had to go to hospital, meaning that for the time being he's on leave until further notice.

It's not like his position is still tennable anyways. His church and community should know fully well that they can't have someone so despised by the community as their representative.