NationStates Jolt Archive

It's a sad day when a school bus driver (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15532553/) loses her job over a political expression.

That’s when the driver gave the president the finger, according to Reichert and Issaquah superintendent Janet Barry.

“The congressman hadn’t seen it, but the president turned to him and said, ‘That one’s not a fan,”’ said Reichert spokeswoman Kimberly Cadena.

Reichert later called Barry to tell her about the incident, but the bus driver had already been fired. District officials learned about the incident after the driver boasted to colleagues about it, Cadena said.
The Superintendent claimed she fired the driver because "she made an obscene gesture in front of the students." Huh? Is there a person here who didn't know what the finger meant by the time they were in Middle school? Hell, I was using it in elementary. (Explains a bit, don't it? ;))

To his credit, it didn't sound like Bush got too exercised over it, if at all. I'm sure a casual single finger salute is nothing these days. That congressman probably needs to get the pole out of his ass, though.

Anyways, the reason I posted the story was because there's a poll at the link that asks if the driver should get her job back. She's losing 61-39 right now, and I'd appreciate it if you guys could help even that out some. I mean, I think all politicians ought to be given the single finger salute at some point, just to let them know we're paying attention.

This happened almost in my back yard. I live about 5 mi from where it happened. It was all over the talk shows and the overwhelmingly response was she should have been fired. Even the lib talk show hosts here in the Seattle area were condeming her for doing it in front of the kids.

I can almost see it, at the very least I can see her getting in trouble for it. All that position of authority etc...if she had been fired for doing that on her own time then it would be pitchfork and torches time, but I can almost see their point, though firing seems extreme.

It's a sad day when a school bus driver (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15532553/) loses her job over a political expression.


The Superintendent claimed she fired the driver because "she made an obscene gesture in front of the students." Huh? Is there a person here who didn't know what the finger meant by the time they were in Middle school? Hell, I was using it in elementary. (Explains a bit, don't it? ;))

To his credit, it didn't sound like Bush got too exercised over it, if at all. I'm sure a casual single finger salute is nothing these days. That congressman probably needs to get the pole out of his ass, though.

Anyways, the reason I posted the story was because there's a poll at the link that asks if the driver should get her job back. She's losing 61-39 right now, and I'd appreciate it if you guys could help even that out some. I mean, I think all politicians ought to be given the single finger salute at some point, just to let them know we're paying attention.
i've seen customer service people fired for swearing at their customers. adults mind you, with words they also hear.

It doesn't matter if the gesture is known or not known, or who it's given to. the fact that she did something rude infront of her customers (the kids) and BOASTED about it later.

i've seen customer service people fired for swearing at their customers. adults mind you, with words they also hear.

It doesn't matter if the gesture is known or not known, or who it's given to. the fact that she did something rude infront of her customers (the kids) and BOASTED about it later.

Man, did I misread this crowd. I don't get it. She's a bus driver for middle school kids--I'd be willing to bet the bird flies all over that bus on a daily basis, and not from the driver. Do parents really think that their kids are pristine or something?

when is the last time anyone actually paid attention to a bus driver?

Man, did I misread this crowd. I don't get it. She's a bus driver for middle school kids--I'd be willing to bet the bird flies all over that bus on a daily basis, and not from the driver. Do parents really think that their kids are pristine or something?
It doesn't matter if her passengers were deliquents or not. what she did was wrong.

now another question is, is this her first offense or just the latest of a string of offenses? We don't know but the fact is, she did flip the bird and she BOASTED about it later. Had she not said anything, most likely no one would've known and she would still have her job.

It sucks but at the same time its understandable. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you're going to get fired, what a good way to go about it. I'd be proud.

It doesn't matter if her passengers were deliquents or not. what she did was wrong.

now another question is, is this her first offense or just the latest of a string of offenses? We don't know but the fact is, she did flip the bird and she BOASTED about it later. Had she not said anything, most likely no one would've known and she would still have her job.

I still don't get it. What did she do that was so wrong? There's not a particularly high bar to be a bus driver, as far as I'm concerned. Don't get into wrecks. Don't let the kids tear the bus up. Don't let the kids tear each other up. Outside of that, what else is there? Did bus driver suddenly have to start taking etiquette lessons in the 20 years I've been out of school?

It sucks but at the same time its understandable. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you're going to get fired, what a good way to go about it. I'd be proud.

Fortunately for her, she's in a union. She's got a decent shot at getting her job back, I'd wager, as long as her record's clean otherwise.

It was a stupid thing to do, to be fired for it seems excessive, but I think the penalty would have been the same regardless of who she had flipped off.

I still don't get it. What did she do that was so wrong? There's not a particularly high bar to be a bus driver, as far as I'm concerned. Don't get into wrecks. Don't let the kids tear the bus up. Don't let the kids tear each other up. Outside of that, what else is there? Did bus driver suddenly have to start taking etiquette lessons in the 20 years I've been out of school?
until you work in customer service (or any other service related field) you won't 'get it'.

until you work in customer service (or any other service related field) you won't 'get it'.

I was a waiter and a bartender all through college. I was a salesman before that. I've done more than enough service related work to last a lifetime. A school bus driver is not a customer service job. It's a transportation job.

I think an official warning would be appropriate. Sacking is too extreme though.
Regardless of whether the students already know the gesture school employees (teachers, secretaries, janitors, drivers) are expected to show a bit of professionalism and decorum around students. For eg. back in NZ every other word coming out of my students mouth was, "fuck"*. However, I went great lengths not to utter any swears in front of students cause I felt I should show a bit of professionalism and respect for my job and towards my students.



*my favourite was, "fuck you, sir" which was usual response to one of my facetious comments. The more one thinks about that statement, the more paradoxical it becomes: 1st part no respect, 2nd part lots of respect. I would tell them it basically evened out, which was fine with me.

Fortunately for her, she's in a union. She's got a decent shot at getting her job back, I'd wager, as long as her record's clean otherwise.

I hope she does. It'd be unfair if this were her only offence.

I was a waiter and a bartender all through college. I was a salesman before that. I've done more than enough service related work to last a lifetime. A school bus driver is not a customer service job. It's a transportation job.

Did you flip people off as a waiter in full view of the customers, then openly brag about it?

Did you flip off customers in full view of other shoppers in the mall, then openly brag about it?

wrong, it's a Service related job. she's providing a transportation service and is being paid by the school. so she needs to follow their rules and procedures.

Did you flip people off as a waiter in full view of the customers, then openly brag about it?

Did you flip off customers in full view of other shoppers in the mall, then openly brag about it?

wrong, it's a Service related job. she's providing a transportation service and is being paid by the school. so she needs to follow their rules and procedures.

As a bartender, yes. As a waiter, no. And the only way it's a service job is if you stretch the term to where it has no real meaning or definition.

I think an official warning would be appropriate. Sacking is too extreme though.
Regardless of whether the students already know the gesture school employees (teachers, secretaries, janitors, drivers) are expected to show a bit of professionalism and decorum around students. For eg. back in NZ every other word coming out of my students mouth was, "fuck"*. However, I went great lengths not to utter any swears in front of students cause I felt I should show a bit of professionalism and respect for my job and towards my students.and indeed it does show professionalism and respect.

again tho. we don't know if her record is clean or if this is her first and only offense. the fact that she bragged about it might indicate that it's not.

also the fact that the Union made no comment... yet.

fools...














(not you guys, the parents/employers/people saying she should be fired)

As a bartender, yes. As a waiter, no. And the only way it's a service job is if you stretch the term to where it has no real meaning or definition.
then you are lucky, i've seen bartenders fired on the spot for doing that and their manager/owner caught them in the act.

What she did showed a lack of professionalism in her job.

and yes, they are in a service field. they provide a service and are being paid to do so. their customer is the school that they take the students to.

This wouldn't even be debated if it wasn't a politician she flipped off.

The fact that this woman was employed by the school district means a great deal. She chose to use an offensive gesture in public, on the clock, and in the presence of children. The school district has every right to fire her, and if they didn't of their own accord there would undoubtedly be parents demanding it later. Do all middle schoolers know what the middle finger means and use it themselves? Probably. Does that make it okay for an employee of the school system to use it herself during school hours. Of course not, and it's ludicrous to believe otherwise. That's akin to saying it's all right if a teacher's an exhibitionist, because all the kids know about what's between his legs anyway.

Like I said, this has nothing to do with the right to political expression - employers can make their own rules for their employees regardless. You're more than welcome to dress, speak, and for the most part act how you like in public, but that doesn't guarantee your right to keep your job.

I can see the legitimacy for firing her. She flipped someone off while she was on the job. When I flip people off at work, I do it in secret, and only towards my friends.

and yes, they are in a service field. they provide a service and are being paid to do so. their customer is the school that they take the students to.
Like I said, by that definition, practically every job in existence is a service job. You've stretched the meaning beyond all reason.

This wouldn't even be debated if it wasn't a politician she flipped off.

The fact that this woman was employed by the school district means a great deal. She chose to use an offensive gesture in public, on the clock, and in the presence of children. The school district has every right to fire her, and if they didn't of their own accord there would undoubtedly be parents demanding it later. Do all middle schoolers know what the middle finger means and use it themselves? Probably. Does that make it okay for an employee of the school system to use it herself during school hours. Of course not, and it's ludicrous to believe otherwise. That's akin to saying it's all right if a teacher's an exhibitionist, because all the kids know about what's between his legs anyway.

Like I said, this has nothing to do with the right to political expression - employers can make their own rules for their employees regardless. You're more than welcome to dress, speak, and for the most part act how you like in public, but that doesn't guarantee your right to keep your job.

Wow--build that straw man in your own factory?

Yes. My factories are more than competent. If you have straw to export, we will gladly manufacture it into men, women, or any gender you prefer.

Otherwise, obviously my example is hyperbole. But saying that "oh, the kids know what that profanity means, so it makes it okay for anyone around them to do it" is pretty amazing to me.

She was not fired for flipping off Bush, she was fired for shooting the bird in front of children

Silly censorship? Maybe.

Legitimate? Probably

This is a school..., and for ten year olds (at their youngest). Wheather or not the kids used it every second (which by the way they probably should be caught and punished for) she is in front of a bunch of kids, if I was a parent (which I'm not) I would be pretty pissed if a staff member flipped somebody the bird, especially if that person was a guest speaker (no matter how stupid or idiotic said speaker is). So while firing is a bit severe (though not at all if she has any kind of record) A severe punishment is deserved.

when is the last time anyone actually paid attention to a bus driver?

Ok thats funny :D
Yet saddly true.

Like I said, by that definition, practically every job in existence is a service job. You've stretched the meaning beyond all reason.

nope. wrong again.

Executive positions are not in the service field.
Military is not in the service field.
Artists/writers/musicians etc are not service jobs. (unless they solely work on commission.)
Teaching isn't (unless you do stretch it beyond reason) it's the educational field unless the teacher is only providing Private lessions.
Farming/Fishing/Animal raising isn't a service occupation.
Science and research isn't a service job.
Actors, both on stage or film, are not service jobs.

Man, did I misread this crowd. I don't get it. She's a bus driver for middle school kids--I'd be willing to bet the bird flies all over that bus on a daily basis, and not from the driver. Do parents really think that their kids are pristine or something?

Some parents of kids that my wife teaches do think their kids are that naive. The real problem is that the school system can't condone acts like that. Maybe the real solution would have been a suspension?

and indeed it does show professionalism and respect.

And that's the whole point. I didn't swear not because I thought it would upset my students, but because I respected my profession.

It'd be similar to if I ever met Bush, regardless of my personal feelings towards him, I'd still call him "Mr. President" or "Sir". Using any other phrase (like 'Mr Douchebag' for eg) is not showing the proper amount of respect towards his position.
I may dislike Bush, but I still respect the position of President of the United States.

you still have a chance to save the nation....Vote

Wow. That does indeed suck.

Not in front of the kids. She should not be re-hired. And it makes it even worse to show disrespect for an elected official in front of children. Put your bumper sticker on your car, a sign in your yard and send money to your favorite candidates like everybody else. Sure most of these kids have probably seen the finger before, that dosn't mean they need to see it by their school bus driver.

you still have a chance to save the nation....Vote

Somehow I'm flashing on the Lady Galadriel telling the Fellowship not to despair.

:)

As a teacher, if I swear in front of my students and their parents complain, I would probably be fired. Bearing in mind that many of these parents phone conversations constist of several swear words separated by the occasional conjunction or article.

When you accept a job as part of a school community, you are agreeing to abide by a code of conduct. Part of that is to set an example of appropriate behaviour, whether or not the clientele adheres to that.

Man, did I misread this crowd. I don't get it. She's a bus driver for middle school kids--I'd be willing to bet the bird flies all over that bus on a daily basis, and not from the driver. Do parents really think that their kids are pristine or something?

No, but (fortunately or unfortunately) as the adult, she is supposed to be modeling mature behavior for the children. She did not. She reinforced a rude and immature behavior (one I have been guilty of myself, truth be told).

If I were to do that in front of my classroom, I would be in trouble too -- might even be fired.

She reinforced a rude and immature behavior (one I have been guilty of myself, truth be told).

You rock.

She reinforced a rude and immature behavior (one I have been guilty of myself, truth be told).

You rock.

Why? Because I have given people the bird? Or because I admit to it?

Why? Because I have given people the bird? Or because I admit to it?

...Can't it be both?

...Can't it be both?

I suppose.

I tell my students when they use inappropriate language in the classroom that while I have used the same language on occasion, that there is an appropriate time and place for it -- and one's place of business is neither. As they are in the process of interviewing for/holding jobs and interviewing for colleges, it's important that they be aware of where they are and what behavior the situation calls for... as it can cost a job or a placement.

While I don't think she should have been fired, it's pretty common knowledge that doing things like that at work can get you in trouble.

i've seen customer service people fired for swearing at their customers. adults mind you, with words they also hear.


Yeah, well, it's not easy being in that position; where you have to smile as people are treating you as they would excrement that must be wiped from their footwear of choice. I've come close to letting a "Go fuck yourself" out myself, i'll tell you that much.

I suppose it depends where you work. I'm constantly muttering "fuckin' goddamn son of a monkey-humping dumbassed fuck!" and variants thereof under my breath, particularly after dealing directly with clients or with untimely, intrusive requests for project updates from higher-ups. Of course, I'm also prone to quoting Captain Haddock from the old Tintin comics...

"Billions of blistering blue barnacles!"

And I'm held in high regard at my workplace.

Another thing that profanity teaches children is laziness. Retorting in a debate with the finger dosn't show a whole lot of research on the child's part. Does it? Children need to learn constructive ways to get their points across. It is a difficult endevour (a lot more difficult than flipping the bird) but well worth the effort.

We don't need the school bus driver, teacher or any adult for that matter to undermine what a child needs to be taught in order to be the best that they can be.

Of course, I'm also prone to quoting Captain Haddock from the old Tintin comics...

"Billions of blistering blue barnacles!"

When I was a kid, I thought Captain Haddock was the shit. I think I successfully emulated his whiskey habit. :)

Psh, this is clever and all, but my father in law ups this quite a bit...

When he was in the army (back in the 80's) he had the words "Fuck You" tatooted on his right arm...so every time he raised his hand to salute and officer...BAM. And they couldnt do a damn thing about it. He still has the tatoo, its so cool :cool:

She was fired for flipping the bird, not the political statement. Get over it.
I am certainly no fan of Bush or the neocons, but I don’t need to play their game and create false indignation. I have plenty of actual indignation.

Good. Political dissidents in all reality deserve death, so she should thank Buddha she only got fired.

nope. wrong again.

Executive positions are not in the service field.
Military is not in the service field.
Artists/writers/musicians etc are not service jobs. (unless they solely work on commission.)
Teaching isn't (unless you do stretch it beyond reason) it's the educational field unless the teacher is only providing Private lessions.
Farming/Fishing/Animal raising isn't a service occupation.
Science and research isn't a service job.
Actors, both on stage or film, are not service jobs.

Executive positions are service jobs. Their customers are the shareholders.
The military is a service job. Their customer is the government.
Artists/writers/musicians are service jobs. Their customers are their fans.
Teaching is a service job. Their customers are the parents of the students.
Farming/fishing/animal raising are service jobs. Their customers are the people who purchase their products.
Science and research positions are service jobs. Their customers are the people providing them their research grants.
Actors are service jobs. Their customers, again, are their fans.

The Nazz is right. You've stretch the definition until it has no more meaning, until it can be stretched to every imaginable profession. Driving a school bus is a service occupation in the same way as pilot of an commercial jet or captain of a cruise ship are.

It doesn't matter if her passengers were deliquents or not. what she did was wrong.

actually I think she should get a medal.

actually I think she should get a medal.

And I think you should be given a swift roundhouse kick to the face, but thats just me.

but thats just me.

No it's not.

actually I think she should get a medal.

I can understand believing that she shouldn't have been punished, but why on earth should she be rewarded? For acting juvenile and immature? I see the middle finger almost daily on my commute to work and not a single one of those people deserve a medal for acting like jackasses, so why does this woman?