NationStates Jolt Archive

So, everyone knows that the crime rate in America is sooo much higher than the rest of the world, right? Well if you want to say that in America that violent crimes are higher than most 1st world countries then you would probably be right. However, these numbers on decreasing for the U.S. but for nearly every other country those numbers are rising. Also, the overall crime rate in the U.S. is significatly lower than even its northern neighbor Canada. The overall crime rate in the U.S. is about 5% while in Canada it is about 8%. So this brings up the question, what accounts for these differences in the nature of crime in America and in the rest of the world? Many people account the greater number of violent crimes in the U.S. to legal weapons but how does that play into the lower number of non-violent crimes?

The violent crime rate in the US will soon be rising again, thanks to those satanic devil-worshippers at Microsoft (http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/xbox-360/game-centers-opened-to-quell-street-violence-211939.php).

So, everyone knows that the crime rate in America is sooo much higher than the rest of the world, right? Well if you want to say that in America that violent crimes are higher than most 1st world countries then you would probably be right. However, these numbers on decreasing for the U.S. but for nearly every other country those numbers are rising. Also, the overall crime rate in the U.S. is significatly lower than even its northern neighbor Canada. The overall crime rate in the U.S. is about 5% while in Canada it is about 8%. So this brings up the question, what accounts for these differences in the nature of crime in America and in the rest of the world? Many people account the greater number of violent crimes in the U.S. to legal weapons but how does that play into the lower number of non-violent crimes?

Got any sources for these numbers?

Got any sources for these numbers?

http://www.hamiltonpolice.on.ca/NR/rdonlyres/4B12A796-B0C9-436C-9F64-840D3EBEE09F/0/CrimeStatisticsinCanada2004.pdf
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/
http://www.crimereduction.gov.uk/statistics/statistics35.htm -the last graph shows that the U.S. is actually pretty low for burglary

I always read it as Violent crimes are increasing in other countries due to American culture

Also your statistics seems to point that whilst Canada has a higher crime rate its usually not some violent killing and this is one of the many reasons I’d rather be North of the border

edit: and go Scotland!

I always read it as Violent crimes are increasing in other countries due to American culture


Ah, that's right. Americans did invent violent crimes. If I recall correctly, the world's first murder took place in the United States. In the 1960s, I believe. Quite remarkable.

Distortion 13: The drug war has reduced crime in the US compared with other nations.
"It's interesting that, in a 2001 study, the British Home Office found that violent crime and property crime increased in the late 1990s in every wealthy country except the United States. No doubt effective drug enforcement had a part in declining crime in the United States."
Source: Asa Hutchinson, "European Experience Shows Legalizing Drugs Doesn't Work," St. Paul Pioneer Press, Oct. 11, 2002.

False. This assertion is based on a comparison of reported rates of crime in various countries, including that of the US as reported by the FBI in its Uniform Crime Reports. The research was performed for the UK's Home Office Research Development & Statistics Directorate. While it is true that the RDS performs an annual review of crime statistics data, the comparison that Hutchinson and others try to make using these annual reports is invalid. According to "International Comparisons of Criminal Justice Statistics 2000" by Gordon Barclay and Cynthia Tavares for the RDS, dated 12 July 2002:
"Although most countries collect information on the number of crimes recorded or reported by the police, absolute comparisons of crime levels are often misleading. Recorded crime levels will be affected by many factors including:
a) Different legal and criminal justice systems;
b) Rates at which crimes are reported to the police and recorded by them;
c) Differences in the point at which crime is measured. For some countries, this is the time at which the offence is reported to the police while for others recording does not take place until a suspect is identified and the papers are forwarded to the prosecutor;
d) Differences in the rules by which multiple offences are counted;
e) Differences in the list of offences that are included in the overall crime figures;
f) Changes in data quality." (p. 2)

source (http://www.drugwardistortions.org/distortion13.htm)

I do wish people of NSG would do GCSE crime and punishment it would make my life so much easier

I always read it as Violent crimes are increasing in other countries due to American culture

Also your statistics seems to point that whilst Canada has a higher crime rate its usually not some violent killing and this is one of the many reasons I’d rather be North of the border

edit: and go Scotland!

Its also not usually a violent killing in the U.S. I don't see where your goin w/ that. Anyway, the point of the thread was to see why these differences exist and to see what can be done to stop them.

Ah, that's right. Americans did invent violent crimes. If I recall correctly, the world's first murder took place in the United States. In the 1960s, I believe. Quite remarkable.

Don’t blame the world you’re the one with the gang culture

Don’t blame the world you’re the one with the gang culture

Haha, you think that america has a gang culture? You are obviously talking out of your ass. You must think that everyone who lives in the ghetto is in a gang or something. You really think that america is the only nation w/ criminal organizations? Just try the italian and russian mafia for a start.

Its also not usually a violent killing in the U.S. I don't see where your goin w/ that.

I'm pointing out that though in Canada you may get more crime in the U.S your more likely for this crime to be violent so you have a choice:

A) more petty crime less violence
B) less petty crime more violence

I know where I'd rather be (also there is the fact that crime may not be reported as much in the U.S)

Anyway, the point of the thread was to see why these differences exist and to see what can be done to stop them.

I suggest more social welfare to the poor coupled with better education in poor areas

Comparing crime rates transnationally doesn't work.

You get problems with definitions and classifications of crime, different laws, different ways of reporting and dealing with crime, how easily crime is reported (just because a crime hasn't been reported doesn't mean it hasn't happened).

Essentially crime rates can only be used to compare an area's progress over time, and not to compare different areas.

I'm pointing out that though in Canada you may get more crime in the U.S your more likely for this crime to be violent so you have a choice:

A) more petty crime less violence
B) less petty crime more violence

Personally, i'd rather have the U.S. model b/c petty crime occurs in better areas of a nation and thus brings down the middle class economy however the more violence occurs in areas w/o much economic potential and don't necesarily do much real damage except to the victim. These areas need to be re-built w/ an economic approach.

I know where I'd rather be (also there is the fact that crime may not be reported as much in the U.S)

Just like the crime may not be reported as much in the EU.

I suggest more social welfare to the poor coupled with better education in poor areas
Hey! your finally on task.

Haha, you think that america has a gang culture? You are obviously talking out of your ass.

it doesn't?

You must think that everyone who lives in the ghetto is in a gang or something.

Nope just a ridicules amount (and in the U.K who have the odd tower block but no Ghettos!)

You really think that america is the only nation w/ criminal organizations? Just try the italian and russian mafia for a start.

No America is the one exporting it at the moment cue mainstream rap music also Mafia is organized crime and is thus largely smuggling

No America is the one exporting it at the moment cue mainstream rap music also Mafia is organized crime and is thus largely smuggling

I don't know that rap music is that big of a problem but gangs are organized crime also. Just on a smaller scale.

Personally, i'd rather have the U.S. model b/c petty crime occurs in better areas of a nation and thus brings down the middle class economy however the more violence occurs in areas w/o much economic potential and don't necesarily do much real damage except to the victim. These areas need to be re-built w/ an economic approach.

so your saying fuck the poor there crime isn't important (failing to relise that the poorer the poor are them ore crime they tend to commit and that middle class stores tend to have insurance)

Just like the crime may not be reported as much in the EU.

exactly statistical evidence is pointless for crime

Hell, Americans have a violent culture. It's also one of the most vibrant cultures, developing all the time. Sometimes you just take the good with the bad.

I don't know that rap music is that big of a problem

when kids hear some rapper boasting about how he "popped a cap da pigs ass" you have to wonder what kind of message that gives to kids

but gangs are organized crime also. Just on a smaller scale.

not really no one in there right mind will hire a group of 12 year olds to smuggle (have to highlight the age also since youth crime is rising in every country)

No America is the one exporting it at the moment cue mainstream rap music also Mafia is organized crime and is thus largely smuggling

Rap music is corrupting your children?

so your saying fuck the poor there crime isn't important (failing to relise that the poorer the poor are them ore crime they tend to commit and that middle class stores tend to have insurance)



exactly statistical evidence is pointless for crime

No, im saying that the crime rate in poor areas is a result of them being poor and we need to approach that problem w/ economic initiatives. Afterall, this thread was supposed to be about solutions. Statistics can be used very effectively to get a general idea about crime trends about different places.

Simple, the US has always had a lot of poor immigrants coming in and we have had to deal with the economic difficulty of handling masses of poor people. Europe has not had nearly as much of a massive influx of immigrants until recently, and now they have to contend with problems of assimilation that they have not had before.

Poverty is highly correlated with crime - though that is obviously a gross oversimplification.

France, to use one example, has only recently had to deal with a massive population of poor and uneducated immigrants who do not blend with society. Thus, they are now having serious problems with that immigrant population.

Crime in an ethnically homogonous nation is considerably lower than in a highly diverse nation. When you do not have strong cultural connections with your neighbors, you have high crime.

I know this is a massive generalization, but it is a contributing factor to the crime rate.

Comparing crime rates transnationally doesn't work.

You get problems with definitions and classifications of crime, different laws, different ways of reporting and dealing with crime, how easily crime is reported (just because a crime hasn't been reported doesn't mean it hasn't happened).

Essentially crime rates can only be used to compare an area's progress over time, and not to compare different areas.

Why are you trying to ruin the debate with sensible posts like this?

not really no one in there right mind will hire a group of 12 year olds to smuggle (have to highlight the age also since youth crime is rising in every country)

Gangs are probably the #1 provider of drugs in the U.S.. What the hell are you talking about?

Why are you trying to ruin the debate with sensible posts like this?

Indeed, no one listens to them. Tried it, don't work.

Don’t blame the world you’re the one with the gang culture

Again, I'm forced to agree. Gangs are absolutely unique to the United States. You'll never find gangs in the UK, for example.

Another problem comparing crime rates in different countries is the fact, that goverments tend to "adjust" the stats to their needs. If a government wants to have some harsher laws, they include more delicts in the stats. If they want to tell the voters, they were succesfull in fighting crime, they take some delicts out of the stats.

And there is a very simple way to wipe out criminality totaly. Simply allow everything. ;)

As far as I know, in Germany the most crimes are drug delicts and illegal immigration. If you would legalize both, the rate would drop immedeatly.

So: Never belive a statistic which you didn't fake yourself. ;)

Again, I'm forced to agree. Gangs are absolutely unique to the United States. You'll never find gangs in the UK, for example.

http://itn.co.uk/news/headlines_e1e6b01357e193e824f053c7eaab87c8.html

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20060104-115755-9546r.htm

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1922745,00.html

Wait, what?

As far as I know, in Germany the most crimes are drug delicts and illegal immigration. If you would legalize both, the rate would drop immedeatly.


You got the numbers on you by any chance?

Rap music is corrupting your children?

no rap music is desensitising are children and giving them poor role models (Have I become my father :eek:)

and not saying that we should censor rap just saying that maybe rappers should take some responsibility for what they say on a record and actually say to the kids that being a thug isn’t good

No, im saying that the crime rate in poor areas is a result of them being poor and we need to approach that problem w/ economic initiatives. Afterall, this thread was supposed to be about solutions. Statistics can be used very effectively to get a general idea about crime trends about different places.

I don't know how economic development would work if you have poorly educated working citizens they tend to get poor paying jobs and thus the cycles continues (of course this leaves a problem we can either try to educate in poor areas or give them all poor paying jobs)

Gangs are probably the #1 provider of drugs in the U.S.. What the hell are you talking about?

your thinking organized crime which sells drugs to drug dealers

Again, I'm forced to agree. Gangs are absolutely unique to the United States. You'll never find gangs in the UK, for example.

no you will find American copies with a British twist (I call it the Beatles affect)

I don't know how economic development would work if you have poorly educated working citizens they tend to get poor paying jobs and thus the cycles continues (of course this leaves a problem we can either try to educate in poor areas or give them all poor paying jobs)

Yup. Education is the way to go.

your thinking organized crime which sells drugs to drug dealers


I've seen it first hand. Gangs, often kids in High School get their drugs through a network stemming from mexico. Kids who would do drugs on their own join that gang for easy access. These new members get other kids to join the gang and the drug problem gets exsasperated.

The reason for all the crime in the US is the ridiculously expensive war on drugs.
It does nothing but to raise the price and profit for selling drugs, and to make the gangs more violent.

I don't know why the crime is rising in the rest of the world and not America, but I have a clue as to why... Here's an anecdote:

In Norway, where I live, we had a reform a few years back. Among other things, it renamed the prison system from "fengselsvesenet", the Norwegian word for "prison administration", a perfectly fine word in my opinion, into "kriminalomsorgen". The new word is hard to translate, but it is a mix of the words "kriminal", meaning "criminal", and "omsorg". "Omsorg" is a word used for "care".
That in itself doesn't sound to bad, but when translating "omsorg" into "care" the word loses a few nuances... You see, "omsorg" is a very "kind" word... It is what mothers do for their babies, what nurses do for sick people, what a gentle embrace does... It can't be used as in "taking care of these motherf'ers". The meaning of "Omsorg" can be said to be a mix of "compassion" and "care".

My intent with this post was not to explain to you about the finer nuances of the Norwegian language, but rather to explain that outside of the US (at least in Norway), the criminal is not looked upon as someone who can actually choose to be or not to be a criminal. He is not supposed to be jailed, he is supposed to be cared for compassionately. The criminal is a purely logical consequence of a set of societal factors, not a person who were actively engaged in the act.

This attitude has grave consequences: 1. as an unspoken rule, you can't moralize over the criminal and tell him he is a person of low moral 2. people, especially the young generation, has this "not my fault"-attitude 3. morale in itself becomes a little... Old fashioned.

The intellectuals having embraced this attitude, it has heavily influenced the legal system. Not only are prison years over here only 2/3 of a normal year (originally it was because prison was a stricter punishment than other institutions due to the harsh standards), but aggravated assault and rape gains you only 4 of those mini-years. "Normal" murder, about 9. Prisoners get "vacation" from prison while doing their time to visit their friends and plot new crimes. Norwegian prisoners have a "fuck-room" in which they can hump their wives or girlfriends when they visit.

Whenever I read about a rape case, or a pedophilia case, a small sentence at the end of the article reads: the person has earlier been convicted of X earlier.
This is because we are allowing the underwhelming minority of people who are actually inflicting pain upon the rest of the population on a regular and planned basis to go free, letting them inflict more pain.

The most obvious example of Europe's prison policy gone wrong, is the case of a Finnish tae-kwon-do trainer whom the radio reported of some time ago. He were jailed for having raped three girls about 13-17 years old... And had [i]three years earlier been convicted of over 600 cases of sex crimes and sexual assault. Tell me, why wasn't this person in jail?

The point in this somewhat cohorent rant is:
Europe isn't punishing it's criminals. The US is. Therefore, less crime in the US, more so in Europe.

Surely there must be a middle ground between coddling them and brutalizing them. American prisons are lovely criminal training grounds.

no rap music is desensitising are children and giving them poor role models (Have I become my father :eek:)

and not saying that we should censor rap just saying that maybe rappers should take some responsibility for what they say on a record and actually say to the kids that being a thug isn’t good

Maybe we can try and have kids who realize the rapper with the three mansions, two in Cali-one in Miami, doesn't really live in the ghetto.

The reason for all the crime in the US is the ridiculously expensive war on drugs.
It does nothing but to raise the price and profit for selling drugs, and to make the gangs more violent... -snip-

http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/cri_dru_off-crime-drug-offences&nofb=1

According to this your Norway leads in the number of drug offences per capita.

So, everyone knows that the crime rate in America is sooo much higher than the rest of the world, right?

Not if you compare crime rates per capita. We went through this just a week ago.

Not if you compare crime rates per capita. We went through this just a week ago.

I havn't been here for a week.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11873854&postcount=41

Sorry, I didn't mean that you and I had gone through this a week ago -- I meant that the topic of the US having "the highest crime rate in the world" was brought up earlier, and using the same website that poster cited, I showed that per capita, the US isn't even in the top five in any of the criteria designated -- rape, assault, car theft, et cetera.

The above link will show you what I mean.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11873854&postcount=41

Sorry, I didn't mean that you and I had gone through this a week ago -- I meant that the topic of the US having "the highest crime rate in the world" was brought up one week ago, and using the same website that poster cited, I showed that per capita, the US isn't even in the top five in any of the criteria designated -- rape, assault, car theft, et cetera.

The above link will show you what I mean.

Wherer the hell is Montserrat? I believe that my point was that the U.S. does not have as high a crime rate as many first world countries so you are supporting my position. Thank you. But those charts have non-first world in them.