NationStates Jolt Archive

Nouri al-Maliki has started flexing his political muscle. He's exercising his nation's right to sovereignty by objecting to the planned Republican time table and by forcing an early end to the search for an American soldier kidnapped by al-Maliki's ally, Muqtada al-Sadr.

Under these circumstances what are US troops doing in Iraq? Clearly the government over there thinks it can handle the situation. Isn't it time to leave?

http://www.insidebayarea.com/argus/news/ci_4584049

sure why not.

Honestly? What's Bush gonna do if the government just tells us to fuck off and then goes and does its own thing? Even farther, if it becomes a dictatorship all over again - what, are we going to re-invade?

*they're hairbumps I swear*

...inasmuch as "we" should never have been there in the first place, yes, it's time to leave.

It would depend on why the USA was in Iraq. If there were milestones that needed to be achieved before departing, it would be best if those were clarified. And if achieved, then yes, the USA should leave Iraq. But these can't be clarified without answering the question:

why is the USA in Iraq?

All this guy needs is the balls to declare himself dictator and we'd be set. The only thing we need to do is make sure he is a secular dictator and not a theocrat, and we can just leave.

why is the USA in Iraq?

I think it was over WMDs, but our leaders have given up that charade now.

It would depend on why the USA was in Iraq. If there were milestones that needed to be achieved before departing, it would be best if those were clarified. And if achieved, then yes, the USA should leave Iraq. But these can't be clarified without answering the question:

why is the USA in Iraq?

I seriously have no clue... the reason changed so much, first it was to find WMDs, then when those turned up it was to liberate Iraq, and when that went sour the focus turned back to finding WMDs, now it's kinda settled on "we just don't wanna screw it up worse than we have", which the best way to do that by now would be to just get out, considering much of the violence is coming from people who do not want to have their country controlled by the US.
The only thing I don't like about pulling out is I don't want to tell those sick freaks who use suicide bombings and beheadings that they win, but on the other hand we weren't even supposed to be there in the first place.
Hopefully once the dems take back Congress we might see some stronger support from the government to get the hell outta that place.

well considering the presence of us and uk and the rest troops is now acknowledged as doing more harm than good i think now is as good a time as any to start bowing out of the whole mess. it's quite clear that foreign involvement is not wanted, no-one knows better than the iraqis how to govern the iraqi state. stands to reason really.

I agree, it's go time.

I expect that when the Iraqi's have signed over their oil reserves in the next couple of months that America will be pulling out faster than you can say "phony war".

All this guy needs is the balls to declare himself dictator and we'd be set. The only thing we need to do is make sure he is a secular dictator and not a theocrat, and we can just leave.

Well, Saddam is available for the position...

Even after all this time I'm still fucking BAFFLED at how they lied to the public and completely ignored the search for Bin Laden completely.

Isn't it time to leave?


No.

We should never have been there in the first place.


This is, however, at LEAST as good a time to leave as any other.

Nouri al-Maliki has started flexing his political muscle. He's exercising his nation's right to sovereignty by objecting to the planned Republican time table and by forcing an early end to the search for an American soldier kidnapped by al-Maliki's ally, Muqtada al-Sadr.

Under these circumstances what are US troops doing in Iraq? Clearly the government over there thinks it can handle the situation. Isn't it time to leave?

http://www.insidebayarea.com/argus/news/ci_4584049

considering the latest timetable is when the Iraqi Government says it's ready...


*wonders if the Iraqi Security Forces got rid of all their deathsquad members*

why is the USA in Iraq?

Ask the flip-flopper-in-chief what his cause is today.

It looks like in the long-run, the iraq war will have:

Created violent anti-americanism

Turned iraq from iran's nemesis into its client state

Destroyed american prestige and legitimacy

Funneled hundreds of billions of dollars to oil companies, the venezuelans and the saudis.

We should never leave.

It looks like in the long-run, the iraq war will have:

Created violent anti-americanism

Turned iraq from iran's nemesis into its client state

Destroyed american prestige and legitimacy

Funneled hundreds of billions of dollars to oil companies, the venezuelans and the saudis.

And, I seem to remember Bush saying something like "God talked to me the other day and said that Iraq would -not- be a bloodbath. It would be relatively peaceful. It would be resolved in a decent manner.", while at the same time, Pat Robertson said "God talked to me the other day and said Iraq would be a bloodbath..."etc, etc.

I was agains the war anyway. So in my opinion the Americans should leave Iraq asap. I've always found the saying "Fighting for Peace" a bit strange. Noticing that Peace means you don't fight.. but meh

Yep. Time to pick up our toys and leave the sandbox.

(insert repetition of the phrase CUT AND RUN here)

Nouri al-Maliki has started flexing his political muscle. He's exercising his nation's right to sovereignty by objecting to the planned Republican time table and by forcing an early end to the search for an American soldier kidnapped by al-Maliki's ally, Muqtada al-Sadr.

Under these circumstances what are US troops doing in Iraq? Clearly the government over there thinks it can handle the situation. Isn't it time to leave?

I think we should either get very serious in Iraq (and start rounding up and shooting 'insurgents', starting with this Sadr fellow; I know it sounds bloody, but it worked to quell the insurgency in germany after WWII) or we should just cut our loses, pull our troops out and terminate all US funded reconstruction projects. They are sitting on some of the largest oil feilds in the world, they can afford to pay for their own reconstruction.

I was originally in favor of this war, because sadam was a inhuman monster, and I thought it might create an ally (I don't really count saudi arabia, because they just want our money, and appear to be slipping a good deal of it to terrorists under the table) in the middle east. But it's clear now that the sentiment in Iraq is, 'thanks for taking care of sadam... now get out and let us kill each other.'

Perhaps we should offer amnesty to anyone who wants to live free and escape the carnage that will ensue when we pull out, and take them with us when we do. With thorough background checks to make sure we aren't importing a bunch of terrorists, of course.

I'm sick of this silly politically correct war we are fighting over there, our fighting men and women are dieing, and we are spending billions of dollars, to prop up what is rapidly turning out to be an anti-american islamist republic.

May as well name it Iran Junior.

<end frustrated politically charged rant>

We should never leave.

So we should kick all the Iraqis out and keep the land? Maybe make it the 51st state?

It might be worthwhile to concentrate our last efforts in iraq on removing - by force if necessary, all sunnis from baghdad.

This would be both for their own protection and to stabilize the civil war raging in the capital.

All this guy needs is the balls to declare himself dictator and we'd be set. The only thing we need to do is make sure he is a secular dictator and not a theocrat, and we can just leave.

That won't work. Saddam Hussein was part of the بعث party. That party was as secular as ever.

Iraq is screwed. It has been since Saddam rose to power. The U.S can't fix it. No outside force can. The only people who can change Iraq are Iraqis and their government.

It might be worthwhile to concentrate our last efforts in iraq on removing - by force if necessary, all sunnis from baghdad.

This would be both for their own protection and to stabilize the civil war raging in the capital.


You remove Sunnis from Baghdad (Sunnis make up about 98% of Muslims), then you'll get riots from other countries outside Iraq.

Ethnic Cleansing never works.

I think we should either get very serious in Iraq (and start rounding up and shooting 'insurgents', starting with this Sadr fellow; I know it sounds bloody, but it worked to quell the insurgency in germany after WWII) or we should just cut our loses, pull our troops out and terminate all US funded reconstruction projects. They are sitting on some of the largest oil feilds in the world, they can afford to pay for their own reconstruction.

I was originally in favor of this war, because sadam was a inhuman monster, and I thought it might create an ally (I don't really count saudi arabia, because they just want our money, and appear to be slipping a good deal of it to terrorists under the table) in the middle east. But it's clear now that the sentiment in Iraq is, 'thanks for taking care of sadam... now get out and let us kill each other.'

Perhaps we should offer amnesty to anyone who wants to live free and escape the carnage that will ensue when we pull out, and take them with us when we do. With thorough background checks to make sure we aren't importing a bunch of terrorists, of course.

I'm sick of this silly politically correct war we are fighting over there, our fighting men and women are dieing, and we are spending billions of dollars, to prop up what is rapidly turning out to be an anti-american islamist republic.

May as well name it Iran Junior.

<end frustrated politically charged rant>

Sure, Sadaam is a monster, but he's a small monster compared to others we could've taken out instead. It was bad timing, bad targeting, and terrible military tactics.

That won't work. Saddam Hussein was part of the بعث party. That party was as secular as ever.

Iraq is screwed. It has been since Saddam rose to power. The U.S can't fix it. No outside force can. The only people who can change Iraq are Iraqis and their government.

Oddly enough, we put Sadaam into power there, so technically it's always been screwed because of us.

You remove Sunnis from Baghdad (Sunnis make up about 98% of Muslims), then you'll get riots from other countries outside Iraq.

Ethnic Cleansing never works.

If the americans dont escort them out, all of them will eventually be killed by the shia.

And sunnis make up significantly less than 98% of muslims. w-t-f ?

Nouri al-Maliki has started flexing his political muscle. He's exercising his nation's right to sovereignty by objecting to the planned Republican time table and by forcing an early end to the search for an American soldier kidnapped by al-Maliki's ally, Muqtada al-Sadr.

Under these circumstances what are US troops doing in Iraq? Clearly the government over there thinks it can handle the situation. Isn't it time to leave?

http://www.insidebayarea.com/argus/news/ci_4584049

If al-Maliki thinks we're unneeded, who are we to say otherwise. He's wrong, of course, but isn't Iraq a sovereign nation with a democratically elected government? I'd like to see the USAF leave several hundred thousand tons of HE in various places as a little parting gift, though.

Ask the flip-flopper-in-chief what his cause is today.

He's probably appointed a Mystic 8-Ball as Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

What happened to "Stay the Course, or the terrorists win"?

If the americans dont escort them out, all of them will eventually be killed by the shia.

And sunnis make up significantly less than 98% of muslims. w-t-f ?
I think they were referring to Muslims in Baghdad...

Oh and basically, Al-Sadr'll be in charge when the US leaves. Nice one there... he'll be MUCH worse than Saddam, you know...

why is the USA in Iraq?

We are in Iraq because Hussein violated the terms of the ceasefire he signed in 1991.

We are in Iraq because Hussein violated the terms of the ceasefire he signed in 1991.

That's a really stupid reason.

All this guy needs is the balls to declare himself dictator and we'd be set. The only thing we need to do is make sure he is a secular dictator, like Saddam Hussein was, and not a theocrat and we can just leave.

Fixed. :D

He's probably appointed a Mystic 8-Ball as Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

What happened to "Stay the Course, or the terrorists win"?

People are finally calling bullshit on both accounts.

Heh. I wonder if when the Iraqis do tell us to leave, what do you think will happen? I'm thinking Bush's give em the finger, put a boot up their ass, and redeclare victory.

Yep...it's time for those 160,000 or so troops to leave Iraq and get sent to Afghanistan where they fucking belong.

Hey Bush! If we're going to go ahead and play the nation-building game, can we at least do it one nation at a time? :rolleyes:

We are in Iraq because Hussein violated the terms of the ceasefire he signed in 1991.

I'm thinking your a puppet.

How did he violate it, exactly?

Now, for those whoremember WAY back in '03, it was because he had WMD's. Which, as we found out, was bullshit. Then, it turned into terrorism, which as we found out was bullshit. Then it turned into "freeing" the Iraqi people, which is becoming more likable to bullshit. Now it's turned into a cross between reason 2 and reason 3, that we are "freeing" the Iraqi people, and we are "protecting" ourselves from "terrorist", which is, of course, bullshit. We're only escalating violence over there, not helping it.

Hey, Ignorance is Strength, I suppose.

Yep...it's time for those 160,000 or so troops to leave Iraq and get sent to Afghanistan where they fucking belong.

Hey Bush! If we're going to go ahead and play the nation-building game, can we at least do it one nation at a time? :rolleyes:

No, you can't, because, y'know, God told him so.

Of course, most people "God tells" to do things are sitting in cushioned rooms right now, and so should Bush, but let's not think about it.

No, you can't, because, y'know, God told him so.

Of course, most people "God tells" to do things are sitting in cushioned rooms right now, and so should Bush, but let's not think about it.

I try not to...but it's hard. :(

I try not to...but it's hard. :(

I think all the coke he snorted did something to his brain. That's my theory.

I think all the coke he snorted did something to his brain. That's my theory.

My theory is that Barbara dropped him on his head...





...at around age 12.

It was wrong for America to invade in the first place, it's wrong we're still there and I think we don't need to continue fighting a war that never needed to happen. In other words, yes we should withdraw.

My theory is that Barbara dropped him on his head...





...at around age 12.

Nice jab!

My theory is that Barbara dropped him on his head...





...at around age 12.

repeatedly.

repeatedly.

Violently.

(Let's go on with this game! It's fun!) :D

Violently.

(Let's go on with this game! It's fun!) :D

And then dumped him in a pile of cocaine.

And then dumped him in a pile of cocaine.

Laced with LSD.

It's time to leave Iraq.

Why yes it is.

We are in Iraq because Hussein violated the terms of the ceasefire he signed in 1991.

If that were true, the US military would have left as soon as he was captured.
Try again.

Nouri al-Maliki has started flexing his political muscle. He's exercising his nation's right to sovereignty by objecting to the planned Republican time table and by forcing an early end to the search for an American soldier kidnapped by al-Maliki's ally, Muqtada al-Sadr.

Under these circumstances what are US troops doing in Iraq? Clearly the government over there thinks it can handle the situation. Isn't it time to leave?

http://www.insidebayarea.com/argus/news/ci_4584049No. You messed up so you are supposed to clean up. You are supposed to leave Iraq in a better condition than you found it. Or do you want to cut and run now that the situation has become a little difficult, which is your fault. Your shitty government opened this box of Pandora, now see how to get the evils you let out back in the box.
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No. You messed up so you are supposed to clean up. You are supposed to leave Iraq in a better condition than you found it. Or do you want to cut and run now that the situation has become a little difficult, which is your fault. Your shitty government opened this box of Pandora, now see how to get the evils you let out back in the box.
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Nobody is under any obligation to do the impossible. Enough of the Iraqi people want civil war that we cannot prevent it.

Nobody is under any obligation to do the impossible. Enough of the Iraqi people want civil war that we cannot prevent it.

Yes we can. But we need to decide that the mission of the coalition troops in Iraq is to keep Iraqis from killing each other. If that's not it, then we need to leave. I believe that there is no defined mission for the forces in Iraq, hence we get this 'death by a thousand cuts' type of stalemate.

Nobody is under any obligation to do the impossible. Enough of the Iraqi people want civil war that we cannot prevent it.It was you who created the preconditions for civil war. You went into Iraq with no plan how to get out. You are very well under the obligation to secure a secure Iraq. Or were your overloud announcements of a free democratic future for Iraq only rethoric? Where are your high aspirations now? Your failure is the reason for the situation in Iraq. Bush and all who voted for him should be indicted for genocide.
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No. You messed up so you are supposed to clean up. You are supposed to leave Iraq in a better condition than you found it. Or do you want to cut and run now that the situation has become a little difficult, which is your fault. Your shitty government opened this box of Pandora, now see how to get the evils you let out back in the box.
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What makes you think we're able to do what Pandora couldn't?

What makes you think we're able to do what Pandora couldn't?You mean now that you have created a helpless situation it is no longer your responsibility? Iraq was better off under Saddam than under Bush. Does that not tell you something about how rotten your nation and its elected leadership is? You all should be in the dock with Saddam now and be punished according to your crimes just as he will be.
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It was you who created the preconditions for civil war. You went into Iraq with no plan how to get out. You are very well under the obligation to secure a secure Iraq. Or were your overloud announcements of a free democratic future for Iraq only rethoric? Where are your high aspirations now? Your failure is the reason for the situation in Iraq. Bush and all who voted for him should be indicted for genocide.
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I never backed the invasion. I always said it was stupid. As for Bush and his supporters, if you want the Iraq situation fixed, let all of them volunteer to fight and pay for the reconstruction of Iraq. Leave me and my tax dollars out of it.

You mean now that you have created a helpless situation it is no longer your responsibility? Iraq was better off under Saddam than under Bush. Does that not tell you something about how rotten your nation and its elected leadership is? You all should be in the dock with Saddam now and be punished according to your crimes just as he will be.
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Yes. It tells me just how rotten the elected leadership is. VERY.

You mean now that you have created a helpless situation it is no longer your responsibility? Iraq was better off under Saddam than under Bush. Does that not tell you something about how rotten your nation and its elected leadership is?
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I'll give you the elected leadership part, but my nation is not rotten. Of course we should try to clean it up. George McGovern and William Polk have outlined a comprehensive plan for doing just that, at a considerable savings to the American people over staying there for the next two years. Sadly, I doubt their plan will ever be implemented.

You mean now that you have created a helpless situation it is no longer your responsibility? Iraq was better off under Saddam than under Bush. Does that not tell you something about how rotten your nation and its elected leadership is? You all should be in the dock with Saddam now and be punished according to your crimes just as he will be.
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The whole nation is responsible? Ok then, problem solved. Just kill every single Iraqi and we can declare victory and go home. After all, the whole nation was responsible.

I'll give you the elected leadership part, but my nation is not rotten. Of course we should try to clean it up. George McGovern and William Polk have outlined a comprehensive plan for doing just that, at a considerable savings to the American people over staying there for the next two years. Sadly, I doubt their plan will ever be implemented.

Yes.

Yes. It tells me just how rotten the elected leadership is. VERY.As rotten as those who voted the leadership into office and those who did not prevent it. The US population all knew that GWBush would seek a way to finish the job his incompetent father began. That was clear even before 2001/9/11.
The US and its overproud oh so patriotic people are responsible for the situation on the ground and for every single dead Iraqi and should be punished accordingly, after all it is the US arrogance and disregard for other peoples' needs that have led to this. The US weeps for the lost soldiers? Well, nobody asked the US to start this war but the US though to know better and fabricated "reasons" to fool the world. If you pull out now the US will never be trustworthy again.
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I'll give you the elected leadership part, but my nation is not rotten. Of course we should try to clean it up. George McGovern and William Polk have outlined a comprehensive plan for doing just that, at a considerable savings to the American people over staying there for the next two years. Sadly, I doubt their plan will ever be implemented.If your nation does not possess the decency to bring about a positive outcome to this mess it is rotten to the core.
Why does the US always have to cause so much death and suffering before it gets a tiny idea of what it is really doing to others? Humanity has reached another low because of what you have done. And a considerable part of your people do not even recognize it. Can you even comprehend the sadness in this? Your treatment of Iraq is like stabbing a man in the back to cure his cancer.
What is the answer now to the question in the last line of the US national anthem? What land do you live in?
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they should have never come anyway.

As rotten as those who voted the leadership into office and those who did not prevent it. The US population all knew that GWBush would seek a way to finish the job his incompetent father began. That was clear even before 2001/9/11.
The US and its overproud oh so patriotic people are responsible for the situation on the ground and for every single dead Iraqi and should be punished accordingly, after all it is the US arrogance and disregard for other peoples' needs that have led to this. The US weeps for the lost soldiers? Well, nobody asked the US to start this war but the US though to know better and fabricated "reasons" to fool the world. If you pull out now the US will never be trustworthy again.
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I couldn't prevent the elections that took place. For one thing, I had misplaced my gun for the whole of that November. Both Novembers, actually.

It never fails to boggle my mind when people can admit that going to Iraq is a mistake, and that occupying it is a mistake, and that we're only hurting things as it is - yet still think we should "stay the course" lest we have our collective manhoods insulted by "cut and run" tactics.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

It never fails to boggle my mind when people can admit that going to Iraq is a mistake, and that occupying it is a mistake, and that we're only hurting things as it is - yet still think we should "stay the course" lest we have our collective manhoods insulted by "cut and run" tactics.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."What does "stay the course" mean now that the high aim of liberating Iraq has failed so terribly? To admit defeat and to admit that this "mission accomplished" thing was a little too early?
People are still dying because of US incapability.
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I greatly disagree with how Iraq has been handled, including the justifications given at the start. That being said, I do believe we should have gone into Iraq a long time ago.

After his surrender, Saddam still had his troops attempting to shoot down and kill US and UK servicemen. The first SAM to go up should have started the war all over again.
He continued to violate the terms of his surrender by firing at American and British aircraft, other nations flagrantly ignored the sanctions, he plotted continued attacks against Americans (no, not with Al Qaeda), and most intelligence agencies were in agreement about WMDs so that wasn’t ‘an American lie’ (being an imminent threat on the other hand was a little unbelievable).

So I think there was considerable justification for invading Iraq.
The problems come with how the war was prosecuted.

Very simple military objectives should have been set. This ‘nation-building’ garbage was ludicrous. Go in, kill or capture Saddam, remove the Bathists from power, stay to give a new government a little help if asked, then leave within a year. If they couldn’t make it in a year, that’s their own problem. They are not children; we shouldn’t treat them like children.

The people of Iraq seem more interested in sectarian violence than in forming a peaceful government, and the government itself isn’t interested in actually doing anything about it.

When US troops were ordered out of Sadr City it was the point when we should have just withdrawn from the country. The government blatantly looks the other way to sectarian killings, refuses to act against militias who act as the so-called ‘death squads’, and makes no effort to stem the violence. If the Iraqis do not want US troops there, and the government does not want troops there, then we should not be there. Simple as that.

Let them handle their own mess. They shit in their own bed time and time again, when are we going to stop cleaning up their mess?

It was our mess to begin with, but we’ve rebuild that country several times over. We should have stopped rebuilding after the sabotage attacks kept destroying what we were building. No insurgency can last without the support of the general population; therefore they are responsible for allowing it to continue.

If they want to fight amongst themselves, let them go at it. We can only give them the opportunity, we cannot make them take it – time and time again they have proven they are not interested in forming a functional government so let them have the civil war they want so badly.

What does "stay the course" mean now that the high aim of liberating Iraq has failed so terribly? To admit defeat and to admit that this "mission accomplished" thing was a little too early?
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"Stay the course" means keeping American troops in Iraq so that media attention is focused on foreign problems rather than domestic political fuck-ups. It means specifically never admitting anything like defeat, and to keep shifting the goal posts so that the US is still only doing good things no matter what pesky "facts" suggest.

@Entropic Creation: Your disregard for ordinary Iraqis who just struggle to make their living somehow is appalling. This mess has been created entirely by the US. The various groups are only making use of the instability the US has caused. Prior to the US invasion there were no WMDs and no alQuaeda in Iraq, but now there are.
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Some versions of the Pandora myth have Pandora slamming the lid shut again after all the bad spirits have escaped, but hearing another voice from inside it and opening it again, releasing Hope.
Some have that she doesn't, retaining Hope. Some that Hope escaped with the bad spirits. In all cases, Hope seems to be an important consideration, a compensation for the advent of evil.

Legends are BS, of course. But I'll go right ahead and make a parallel to the Iraq situation.

What the US needs is an occupation and nation-building operation which is actually going to work, and work soon. I don't think Afghanistan fits the bill (landlocked, remote, has dangerous neighbours, is Islamic holy land, major industry is growing opium, no oil, very poor. Not a lot to work with there.)
No, what the US needs is a short sharp war with a country which doesn't hate them so much, doesn't need much nation-building, and doesn't have borders with a bunch of similar countries. Get in there, set up an innocous puppet government, so that when troops are withdrawn from Iraq there will be one example of successful annexation to point to ...
I'm sorry about this, Canada. But it's for the greater good!




:D

Iraq is soooo much better off now that Saddam Hussein is gone. We are doing a lot of good for Iraq. Go ask a soldier who has served there instead of the liberal media. Liberals make me want to puke. Liberals probably do not have any friends who are soldiers because they only hang out with gays and gays cant serve.

I'll give you the elected leadership part, but my nation is not rotten. Of course we should try to clean it up. George McGovern and William Polk have outlined a comprehensive plan for doing just that, at a considerable savings to the American people over staying there for the next two years. Sadly, I doubt their plan will ever be implemented.
From what I read of the George McGovern plan, it looks pretty good, and it would be a shame not to impliment all or most of it. It is certainly much superior to the plan that Bush doesn't have. :D

Iraq is soooo much better off now that Saddam Hussein is gone. We are doing a lot of good for Iraq. Go ask a soldier who has served there instead of the liberal media. Liberals make me want to puke. Liberals probably do not have any friends who are soldiers because they only hang out with gays and gays cant serve.
You are a funny guy. :p

Iraq is soooo much better off now that Saddam Hussein is gone. We are doing a lot of good for Iraq. Go ask a soldier who has served there instead of the liberal media. Liberals make me want to puke. Liberals probably do not have any friends who are soldiers because they only hang out with gays and gays cant serve.

You need more straw in that.

We should never leave Iraq. We never really left germany, italy, or japan. We should always have military bases there. It seems like a pretty strategic location. We really had to scramble to get military into the region in the first gulf war. Why the hurry to leave? I do not get it?

You need more straw in that.

No logical person could ever believe that we are failing in Iraq unless you only listen to the bad news. We are cleaning terrorist clocks out there and we need to keep doing it. If you do not like it, do not join the military. Nobody is asking you to.

No logical person could ever believe that we are failing in Iraq unless you only listen to the bad news. We are cleaning terrorist clocks out there and we need to keep doing it. If you do not like it, do not join the military. Nobody is asking you to.

You were serious!? My apologies.

Honestly? What's Bush gonna do if the government just tells us to fuck off and then goes and does its own thing?
Replace the government.

You were serious!? My apologies.

No need to apologize. We just need to rally behind the flag here a bit. My goodness our casualties have been so low. We are spending money but if we run ever we will send the message that America is defeated when it loses 3,000. We need to send the message that we will all fight to the death forever until victory is achieved. Otherwise we are compromising our national security. The Japs had a good attitude during WWII we need that attitude.

Iraq is soooo much better off now that Saddam Hussein is gone. We are doing a lot of good for Iraq. Go ask a soldier who has served there instead of the liberal media. Liberals make me want to puke. Liberals probably do not have any friends who are soldiers because they only hang out with gays and gays cant serve.

Iraq was orderly and secular under Saddam. Now it's devolving into warring theocracies. Iraq was the most advanced nation in the region other than Israel under Saddam. It was stable. Now it's a mess similar to what Afghanistan was after the Soviets left.

I'm Liberal and I don't know even one gay person. I do know three soldiers. I have nothing against gays, but I'm just showing how stupid your stereotypes are.

As for the Liberal media, how can you call them liberal when they helped bang the war drum for Bush? Anyone with any sense knew going into Iraq was a bad idea. The press could have made that case. Instead they backed Bush up and made the case for war. Why? Because scaring the rubes in the audience sells. Unfortunately, scared rubes tend to be bush supporters.

We should never leave Iraq. We never really left germany, italy, or japan. We should always have military bases there. It seems like a pretty strategic location. We really had to scramble to get military into the region in the first gulf war. Why the hurry to leave? I do not get it?

Because it costs billions of dollars per month to stay there. I don't want to spend that kind of money on Iraq.

No logical person could ever believe that we are failing in Iraq unless you only listen to the bad news. We are cleaning terrorist clocks out there and we need to keep doing it. If you do not like it, do not join the military. Nobody is asking you to.

That's great, but there were almost no terrorists there before, so I'd say we fucked up.

Because it costs billions of dollars per month to stay there. I don't want to spend that kind of money on Iraq.

I hate agreeing with you.

I hate agreeing with you.

Why? It's a sign that you're making some progress.

Why? It's a sign that you're making some progress.

I think it's a sign that the Vast Liberal Conspiracy is just brainwashing us both.

Iraq was orderly and secular under Saddam. Now it's devolving into warring theocracies. Iraq was the most advanced nation in the region other than Israel under Saddam. It was stable. Now it's a mess similar to what Afghanistan was after the Soviets left.

I'm Liberal and I don't know even one gay person. I do know three soldiers. I have nothing against gays, but I'm just showing how stupid your stereotypes are.

As for the Liberal media, how can you call them liberal when they helped bang the war drum for Bush? Anyone with any sense knew going into Iraq was a bad idea. The press could have made that case. Instead they backed Bush up and made the case for war. Why? Because scaring the rubes in the audience sells. Unfortunately, the rubes tend to be bush supporters.

"Orderly and secular" is not the goal. The goal is democracy and civil rights. The guy was a brute and tortured and killed political and personal opponents. You might want the land of the free and the home of the brave to sit idly by as a government rapes and tortures and kills but not I. Even had we known that there were no WMDs I would still have supported it because I think torture and political prisoners are an abomination.

The people of Iraq need to be free to choose their own government. If it is theocratic that is ok as long as minority and civil rights are respected. That is the mission. Also, it is wonderful that we have an opportunity to show the people of the region that America cares about them. We are showing the world how great we are in terms of our military and our kindness. Do not detract from that. The only real probalem is the expense. Maybe it is time to scale back in Iraq and move into Syria or North Korea or Sudan. But we should all be proud of what our military is acheiving in Iraq.

That's great, but there were almost no terrorists there before, so I'd say we fucked up.

No the terrorists moved to Iraq to fight us. Great I say bring it on Osama!

"Orderly and secular" is not the goal. The goal is democracy and civil rights. The guy was a brute and tortured and killed political and personal opponents. You might want the land of the free and the home of the brave to sit idly by as a government rapes and tortures and kills but not I. Even had we known that there were no WMDs I would still have supported it because I think torture and political prisoners are an abomination.

The people of Iraq need to be free to choose their own government. If it is theocratic that is ok as long as minority and civil rights are respected. That is the mission. Also, it is wonderful that we have an opportunity to show the people of the region that America cares about them. We are showing the world how great we are in terms of our military and our kindness. Do not detract from that. The only real probalem is the expense. Maybe it is time to scale back in Iraq and move into Syria or North Korea or Sudan. But we should all be proud of what our military is acheiving in Iraq.
You can't force people who don't want freedom and civil rights to have them. They'll just end up killing each other in a civil war. Stability is the best one can hope for at the moment.

If the USA really wanted to help they could have intervened in Darfur. There's a fucking genocide going on there. The second genocide the Sudanese government has been involved in. Where the fuck are we? You want to talk about torture, the Sudanese castrate little boys and gang rape every woman in a village. Sometimes they cut off the raped woman's breasts so if she lives gives birth she can't feed her baby. Saddam was an angel compared to the regime in Khartoum.

The people of the region don't see this as "America cares" they see this as America wants to burn the Koran and enslave their people. That's why this is a stupid idea. You can't eliminate an evil culture through war. You need to do it through trade and cultural imperialism.

No the terrorists moved to Iraq to fight us. Great I say bring it on Osama!

So you support "liberating" Iraq by encouraging terrorism there?

Interesting.

The US are responsible for the mess down there - simply back off is not a solution. Many more Iraquis will die otherwise.

Well, they could give over the command to the UN or an Arabic coalition. Perhaps this could stabalize the situation.

And you mentioned the money - well, how many billion Dollars did the Iraqui people lose because of this senseless war? Why they have to pay the bill?

No the terrorists moved to Iraq to fight us. Great I say bring it on Osama!

No, less than ten percent of the people our military is fighting in Iraq are foreign. Most of them are local Shiite or Sunni terrorists who want to establish their particular type of terrorist-supporting Muslim theocracy. Guess what? The US helped them come into power. Isn't that neat? We've laid the foundation for the next al qaeda.

The US are responsible for the mess down there - simply back off is not a solution. Many more Iraquis will die otherwise.

Well, they could give over the command to the UN or an Arabic coalition. Perhaps this could stabalize the situation.

And you mentioned the money - well, how many billion Dollars did the Iraqui people lose because of this senseless war? Why they have to pay the bill?
The UN don't want it and the other Arabs would end up fighting Iran over Iraq and they don't want that kind of war.

The guy is flexing his muscles and trying to show the IRAQI people who is in charge in IRAQ.



Well DUH...isn't that what he's supposed to do ?:rolleyes:

Why is it such a big deal...let him do his thing and hope it works. In the Middle east YOU NEVER BARGAIN FROM A POSITION OF WEAKNESS

Being seen as a puppet of the US is being WEAK....ergo sum ...well DUH..

You guys amaze me at times .

We break his balls to get shit under controll he tells us how he is going to do it...he goes out and trys to pull it off...

Bang ...lets run home and take our ball with us ...he aint playing fair...

Like he didn't tell the US EXACTLY wwhat he was going to do and they didnt agree to go along with him ..for a while ..:rolleyes:

The guy is flexing his muscles and trying to show the IRAQI people who is in charge in IRAQ.



Well DUH...isn't that what he's supposed to do ?:rolleyes:

Why is it such a big deal...let him do his thing and hope it works. In the Middle east YOU NEVER BARGAIN FROM A POSITION OF WEAKNESS

Being seen as a puppet of the US is being WEAK....ergo sum ...well DUH..

You guys amaze me at times .

We break his balls to get shit under controll he tells us how he is going to do it...he goes out and trys to pull it off...

Bang ...lets run home and take our ball with us ...he aint playing fair...

Like he didn't tell the US EXACTLY wwhat he was going to do and they didnt agree to go along with him ..for a while ..:rolleyes:

That's a good point. Glorious Freedonia, pay attention. That's how you make an intelligent argument.

It was you who created the preconditions for civil war. You went into Iraq with no plan how to get out. You are very well under the obligation to secure a secure Iraq. Or were your overloud announcements of a free democratic future for Iraq only rethoric? Where are your high aspirations now? Your failure is the reason for the situation in Iraq. Bush and all who voted for him should be indicted for genocide.
.

We failed. We fucked up. Sorry.

What more do you want? We've been beaten by the one kind of army we could never fight. We look terrible to the world, we have bankrupted ourselves, and we are weakening our armed forces.

Blame our incompetant leaders for the current situation, if you must, but truly even they never thought that things could get this bad. The greatest problem with fighting any insurgency is that its members disguise themselves as members of a community. If that community does not target and remove them, there is little that an invader can do.

We failed, but what we truly failed to do was win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people.

Seriously though…
We need to stay to help clean things up, but the last few years are going to be completely wasted if we cannot get a good government in place. I would have thought that lesson would have been learned in Vietnam.

The Iraqi government has to start taking responsibility. The Iraqi people have to start taking some responsibility too. The US cannot stop a civil war and end the insurgency without the active participation of the populace.

Then just focus your efforts on building up and developing the safer areas. Once they are well established and safe, with a good local government and an effective police force, move on to the next area.

No sense wasting out resources in an area where the people are actively fighting against us. Eventually they will see their neighbors so much better off that they might realize we are trying to make things better. Maybe.

At the very least we can try to keep our soldiers out of areas where everybody wants them dead.

The US has been asking for international assistance from the beginning – it would be nice if other countries actually tried to help rather than just sitting on their asses and bitching about how badly the US is screwing up.

As far as the money goes, I’m going to have to do a cost/benefit analysis and say it isn’t worth the money. It just gets thrown away as the insurgents keep sabotaging infrastructure – until the insurgency goes, the money is just pissed away. And the insurgency isn’t going to end until the people want it to.

Hmmm, I guess no one here has served In Iraq have you? I talk to vetrans who were there everyday and NONE of them EVER talk about it being as bad as people think. That is because of the dirty stinking media. They never tell us anything except the bad things. If you talk to a Vetran and ask him if we are making progress in Iraq, he will not just say yes, but he will tell you about how there are building projects finishing all over the place. We aren't fixing what we destroyed this time around, we are fixing what Saddam never even set up the entire time he was in power. They have Running water that is put through treatment facilities. They have electricity. They have Television. They have schools. They have so many things that the media NEVER talks about, because no one wants to read about how a bunch of 5 year olds get to go to school for the first time in their lives, they would rather read about how Bush's plan (or lack there-of) is failing miserably. And yes, Iraq was a big terrorist factory before we even set foot in there. It was one of the worst ones in the region. So no, we have not done more harm than good. We have done much more good in these past few years than Saddam did in his, what, 20?

The pageant begins.

Hmmm, I guess no one here has served In Iraq have you? I talk to vetrans who were there everyday and NONE of them EVER talk about it being as bad as people think. That is because of the dirty stinking media. They never tell us anything except the bad things. If you talk to a Vetran and ask him if we are making progress in Iraq, he will not just say yes, but he will tell you about how there are building projects finishing all over the place. Acutally we start projects then the money seems to disappear. There are numerous incomplete and wasteful projects over there. We aren't fixing what we destroyed this time around, we are fixing what Saddam never even set up the entire time he was in power. They have Running water that is put through treatment facilities. They have electricity. They have Television. They have schools. They have so many things that the media NEVER talks about, because no one wants to read about how a bunch of 5 year olds get to go to school for the first time in their lives, they would rather read about how Bush's plan (or lack there-of) is failing miserably. And yes, Iraq was a big terrorist factory before we even set foot in there. It was one of the worst ones in the region. So no, we have not done more harm than good. We have done much more good in these past few years than Saddam did in his, what, 20?
Fact is that under Saddam Iraq was the most modern nation other than Israel in the region. They had schools. They had electricity and clean running water. They lost those things to the wars and the sanctions.

Also, Saddam's iraq was a secular nation. They didn't breed terrorists before. They do now that the islamofascists can operate out in the open.

I don't know where you're getting your misinformation from, but I'd suggest you get your head out of your ass and into a book.

Thank you, DCD:fluffle:

Hmmm, I guess no one here has served In Iraq have you? I talk to vetrans who were there everyday and NONE of them EVER talk about it being as bad as people think. That is because of the dirty stinking media. They never tell us anything except the bad things. If you talk to a Vetran and ask him if we are making progress in Iraq, he will not just say yes, but he will tell you about how there are building projects finishing all over the place. We aren't fixing what we destroyed this time around, we are fixing what Saddam never even set up the entire time he was in power. They have Running water that is put through treatment facilities. They have electricity. They have Television. They have schools. They have so many things that the media NEVER talks about, because no one wants to read about how a bunch of 5 year olds get to go to school for the first time in their lives, they would rather read about how Bush's plan (or lack there-of) is failing miserably. And yes, Iraq was a big terrorist factory before we even set foot in there. It was one of the worst ones in the region. So no, we have not done more harm than good. We have done much more good in these past few years than Saddam did in his, what, 20?

So you've got a new name. I still can't take your ranting seriously, Glorious Freedonia.

Hmmm, I guess no one here has served In Iraq have you? I talk to vetrans who were there everyday and NONE of them EVER talk about it being as bad as people think. That is because of the dirty stinking media. They never tell us anything except the bad things. If you talk to a Vetran and ask him if we are making progress in Iraq, he will not just say yes, but he will tell you about how there are building projects finishing all over the place. We aren't fixing what we destroyed this time around, we are fixing what Saddam never even set up the entire time he was in power. They have Running water that is put through treatment facilities. They have electricity. They have Television. They have schools. They have so many things that the media NEVER talks about, because no one wants to read about how a bunch of 5 year olds get to go to school for the first time in their lives, they would rather read about how Bush's plan (or lack there-of) is failing miserably. And yes, Iraq was a big terrorist factory before we even set foot in there. It was one of the worst ones in the region. So no, we have not done more harm than good. We have done much more good in these past few years than Saddam did in his, what, 20?

You are exactly right. But the ones that we are helping are an ungrateful lot. Either that, or they think they are ready to maintain their own security. We need a clear mission and a clear agreement with the democratically elected Iraqi government before we agree to stay. If the democratically elected Iraqi government decides that it wants to call all the shots, we should thank them for their hospitality and bid them goodbye.

If the democratically elected Iraqi government decides that it wants to call all the shots, we should thank them for their hospitality and bid them goodbye.

... you forgot to add "and bomb the shit out of them as we leave, LOL" addendum you had earlier. Trying to look PC now?

... you forgot to add "and bomb the shit out of them as we leave, LOL" addendum you had earlier. Trying to look PC now?

Well, we do have most of the world's evil-doers in one or two places. Why waste that opportunity.

And I spit on you for accusing me of attempting to be politically correct.

isn't Iraq a sovereign nation with a democratically elected government? Yeah.. and so is Afghanistan [/UBERsarcasm]

Yeah.. and so is Afghanistan [/UBERsarcasm]

Irrelevant. Are the Afghanis making unreasonable demands on our forces?

Well, we do have most of the world's evil-doers in one or two places.Wall-street and Pentagon.

Irrelevant.relevancy is on the eye of the beholder.

We failed, but what we truly failed to do was win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people.
I honestly believed from the very start, that that would not happen.

When the bombs started to fall in 2003, that was the second time in 12 years that the US had bombed Iraq.

Also, remember Bush the Elder telling the Iraqis to revolt?

Well, we do have most of the world's evil-doers in one or two places.

That's pretty laughable. We have 2 million convicted criminals here in US prisons and you're naively blurting out how "most of the world's evil-doers" are in Iraq. And of course you believe those "evil doers" will just happen to be underneath when the bombs fall. Har.


And I spit on you for accusing me of attempting to be politically correct.

Spade = spade.

Irrelevant. Are the Afghanis making unreasonable demands on our forces?

Maybe and maybe not, but your forces are making unreasonable demands of our forces. Just sayin'.

Its over, we lost, get over it.

Thats all that has to happen, the majority of the most powerful part of the Insurgency is Iraqi nationals that are only there to fight Americans, because they believe they are infedels. If America left tommorow. The Insurgency would end. However the secular fighting/civil war would continue. But that so isnt an American Job..just like the war isnt anyways.

It looks like in the long-run, the iraq war will have:

Created violent anti-americanism

Turned iraq from iran's nemesis into its client state

Destroyed american prestige and legitimacy

Funneled hundreds of billions of dollars to oil companies, the venezuelans and the saudis.

whats so bad about funneling money to the venezuelans? if I had to pick my lunatic world-leader, it would be hugo chavez...he may be a little crazy and heavy handed, but given the other ones we're dealing with here, he starts to look pretty good.

Wall-street and Pentagon.

*chuckles* thank you.

He is the PM, and thus holds the same powers as any other PMs in the world, sure why not. However, it should be explained the consequences of the United States leaving Iraq, and anything that happens after the withdraw will not be blamed on the United States.

That's a really stupid reason.

It is, however, the reason.

Hussein agreed to certain things to get us to stop killing his troops.

Once he breaks that agreement, the killing resumes.

I'm thinking your a puppet.

Think what you like.

How did he violate it, exactly?

He had 15 days to produce -

All his WMDs
Proof of their destruction
All research documentation to make WMDs

He failed to do so.

He also violated the ceasefire everytime his AA batteries locked on to one of our aircraft.

Say what you will, but the fact remains, Hussein violated the terms of the ceasefire he agreed to.

If you violate the terms of - oh, say, your mortgage - your bank will gleefully not do a thing, right?

If that were true, the US military would have left as soon as he was captured.

Really.

Tell us all about the US troops that are not in Europe or Japan.

Thanx.

Try again.

I believe I just did.

Well, nobody asked the US to start this war but the US though to know better and fabricated "reasons" to fool the world.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe it was Iraq that invaded and occupied Kuwait, not the US.

If you pull out now the US will never be trustworthy again.

As soon as some cowering nation wants some other nation to stop attacking them, they'll come running to the US to do their dirty work for them - we're still in Bosnia - and complain about it as sooon as it's done.

Iraq is soooo much better off now that Saddam Hussein is gone. We are doing a lot of good for Iraq. Go ask a soldier who has served there instead of the liberal media. Liberals make me want to puke. Liberals probably do not have any friends who are soldiers because they only hang out with gays and gays cant serve.

My best friend growing up is in Baghdad right now.

My current close friend and roomate is at drill in Florida right now.

I wish neither of them were never put in danger because of one stupid man. How is that not supporting them? I wish I could go to the funerals of soldiers and wait outside for people who DARE to protest the war at such a place so I could hit them in the face with a bat.

Hating and fearing your government, and protesting the war, does NOT mean I don't support my friends. I just want them to be safe.

I want Mark to come home so he can spend time with his wife.

Way to spout what the radio told you to.

@Entropic Creation: Your disregard for ordinary Iraqis who just struggle to make their living somehow is appalling.

Prior to Hussein's capture, Iraqis were enemy nationals.

Think what you like.



He had 15 days to produce -

All his WMDs
Proof of their destruction
All research documentation to make WMDs

He failed to do so.

He also violated the ceasefire everytime his AA batteries locked on to one of our aircraft.

Say what you will, but the fact remains, Hussein violated the terms of the ceasefire he agreed to.

If you violate the terms of - oh, say, your mortgage - your bank will gleefully not do a thing, right?


So - NOT presenting the evidence to prove that you DON'T have the things you keep saying you DON'T have... is a grounds for war?

If I'm not mistaken, I believe it was Iraq that invaded and occupied Kuwait, not the US.


Iraq occupied Kuwait because Kuwait would not allow Iraq to be released from 'war-debt' they incurred protecting Kuwait from Iranian aggression.

So - NOT presenting the evidence to prove that you DON'T have the things you keep saying you DON'T have... is a grounds for war?

You are in error.

Hussein admitted to having WMDs.

By the way, what was it that killed the Kurds in the 80s? Particularly virulent camel flatulence?

Iraq occupied Kuwait because Kuwait would not allow Iraq to be released from 'war-debt' they incurred protecting Kuwait from Iranian aggression.

Irrelevant.

Even so, why should Kuwait release oil-rich Iraq? It is still no reason or justification to invade and occupy.

Iraq started the war.

We finished it.

You are in error.

Hussein admitted to having WMDs.

By the way, what was it that killed the Kurds in the 80s? Particularly virulent camel flatulence?

Show me your evidence if you feel the need to call me 'wrong'. Is the chemical weaponry used in tests in the 80's, the WMD's you think Hussein was hiding later?

Or - are you just blowing smoke up my donkey?

Irrelevant.

Even so, why should Kuwait release oil-rich Iraq? It is still no reason or justification to invade and occupy.

Iraq started the war.

We finished it.

Why should Kuwait release Iraq? Because Iraq became indebted to Kuwait, bailing Kuwait's nuts out of the fire?

I'm not saying they SHOULD have released Iraq from their debts - but Iraq sure as hell thought so.

As for your mantric "Iraq started the war. We finished it"... they didn't start a war with US... they had diplomatic issues in the Middle East, and we stepped in because we wanted to make sure the oil didn't stop flowing.

You are in error.

Hussein admitted to having WMDs.No he didn't. At least not as is relevent to this war.

By the way, what was it that killed the Kurds in the 80s? Particularly virulent camel flatulence?

What does that have to do with anything? You do realize that these weapons have short shelf lives, right? Any weapons that he had in the 80s expired over a decade ago.

The US had three choices in '03.

A. Don't invade and start a war in Iraq.
B. Invade and start a war in Iraq and have an intelligent post war plan for occupation, rebuilding and withdrawal.
C. Invade and start a war in Iraq and be obstinantly stupid in the face of advice on how to handle post invasion Iraq and have no plan for rebuilding and withdrawal.

Now, I'll conceed option B to you and say that that would have been the best choice just for the sake of argument, but the fact is we did not choose option B. Which do you think the second best choice was?

Anyone who thinks we can leave Iraq without another terrorist group taking control is retarded, and obviously doesn't understand Krapistan politics

No he didn't. At least not as is relevent to this war.



What does that have to do with anything? You do realize that these weapons have short shelf lives, right? Any weapons that he had in the 80s expired over a decade ago.

The US had three choices in '03.

A. Don't invade and start a war in Iraq.
B. Invade and start a war in Iraq and have an intelligent post war plan for occupation, rebuilding and withdrawal.
C. Invade and start a war in Iraq and be obstinantly stupid in the face of advice on how to handle post invasion Iraq and have no plan for rebuilding and withdrawal.

Now, I'll conceed option B to you and say that that would have been the best choice just for the sake of argument, but the fact is we did not choose option B. Which do you think the second best choice was?

Even if hussein DIDN'T have WMDS, would it be better for then insane dictator to still be in power? You seem to forget the terror he caused....

Anyone who thinks we can leave Iraq without another terrorist group taking control is retarded, and obviously doesn't understand Krapistan politics

So what's your proposal? Stay there forever? A couple of terrorist attacks would be cheaper in terms of money and lives than another year or two of occupation. If terrorists do take over Iraq, and if they do launch an attack against us, we can bomb the place to shit in retaliation. The longer we stay, however, the more American lives WILL be lost and the more American dollars WILL be wasted.

Even if hussein DIDN'T have WMDS, would it be better for then insane dictator to still be in power? You seem to forget the terror he caused....

Saddam wasn't insane. He was a thug and a criminal. That's why the US should have kept him in power. A thug respects those who can kick his ass and is always willing to help out if the price is right. He could have been a useful tool against Iran.

Anyone who thinks we can leave Iraq without another terrorist group taking control is retarded, and obviously doesn't understand Krapistan politics

They already do have control. Do you really think we'd be there if they weren't?

Saddam wasn't insane. He was a thug and a criminal. That's why the US should have kept him in power. A thug respects those who can kick his ass and is always willing to help out if the price is right. He could have been a useful tool against Iran.
Amen.

Even if hussein DIDN'T have WMDS, would it be better for then insane dictator to still be in power? You seem to forget the terror he caused....

That doesn't matter. The point is that it was much worse to do it stupidly and incompetently than to not do it at all. Our country and the world are going to be much more dangerous places not because we invaded Iraq, but because of the gross incompetence with regards to running the war and the occupation. It was possible to do this without creating the disaster we have created. We didn't have to dissolve the regualr army and the regular police force as Rmusfeld was advised not to do by his hired advisor. We did not have to invade with a force that Rumsfeld was told would be too small to occupy the country afterwards. We did not have to dissolve the civil infrastructure of the government as Rumsfeld was advised not to do before the invasion by his own staff. He fired all teh people who told him not to do those things, BTW. Given the situation in Iraq now and it's inflamation of Islamist sentiment throughout the greater Middle East it is inarguable, in my opinion, that we and the world would have been better off with Saddam in power than we are and probably will be in the not so distant future.

Really.

Tell us all about the US troops that are not in Europe or Japan.

Thanx.



I believe I just did.

Now you are begininng to approach the real issue. Do the US troops in Europe and Japan maintain their presence solely to bridle the former Axis powers? No. That would be as stupid as saying that the USA is still in Iraq because 'Hussein violated the terms of the ceasefire he signed in 1991.'
US forces may have entered Iraq because of Iraqi aggression, but the Iraqi armed forces are no longer capable of violating any ceasefire, especially against their US sponsors.

So the reason the US forces are in Iraq can not be attributable to Hussein. Perhaps the reason has something to do with why US forces are still in Europe and Japan. Since you're so smart, I'll ask you:

Why are US forces still stationed in Japan and Europe?

Anyone who thinks we can leave Iraq without another terrorist group taking control is retarded, and obviously doesn't understand Krapistan politics

Since you invented 'krapistan', I feel little need to work on comprehending 'their' politics.

If we leave Iraq... what?

It will degenerate into civil war? It already has.

It will become a playground for the religious extremes? It already has.

It will be hostages to militants and militias? It already is.

Assassination will become the tool-du-jour of the political process? It already has.

The banks will flee en masse? They already are.

The ministries will become corrupt? They already are.

The government will become factional and sectarian? It already is.


The difference, if we withdraw, is that ALL the same things will STILL happen, except OUR boys and girls will no longer be finishing their tours in plastic and ice.

Since you invented 'krapistan', I feel little need to work on comprehending 'their' politics.

If we leave Iraq... what?

It will degenerate into civil war? It already has.

It will become a playground for the religious extremes? It already has.

It will be hostages to militants and militias? It already is.

Assassination will become the tool-du-jour of the political process? It already has.

The banks will flee en masse? They already are.

The ministries will become corrupt? They already are.

The government will become factional and sectarian? It already is.


The difference, if we withdraw, is that ALL the same things will STILL happen, except OUR boys and girls will no longer be finishing their tours in plastic and ice.
That, and the loss of prestige. Tough choice.

That, and the loss of prestige. Tough choice.

Exactly... we can suck it up and admit we were stupid... and, incidentally, stop losing the lives of five of our children every day trying to draw lines in a sandbox...

Or, we can pretend our 'balls' are just too big, and 'stay the course' (whatever the hell THAT means this week), and continue pouring the blood of our children into the desert sands.

We broke it; it's still our obligation to fix it. I'm becoming increasingly hardened to say "Iraq: go fuck yourselves." But that's just me...

Exactly... we can suck it up and admit we were stupid... and, incidentally, stop losing the lives of five of our children every day trying to draw lines in a sandbox...

Or, we can pretend our 'balls' are just too big, and 'stay the course' (whatever the hell THAT means this week), and continue pouring the blood of our children into the desert sands.

Kindly don't refer to the military men and women over there as children. They're not kids and they don't appreciate the comparison.

We broke it; it's still our obligation to fix it. I'm becoming increasingly hardened to say "Iraq: go fuck yourselves." But that's just me...

How do you sugget we fix it when so many of the people over there like it better broken?

How do you sugget we fix it when so many of the people over there like it better broken?

Splitting the country into three separate nations.

But we've all ready stated we won't do that (it'll screw out one, if not two of the countries of oil--which they'll bitch about)....which is why I'm sliding into the bitterness of "Iraq: go fuck yourselves. We've offered you freedom, but you don't want it. Sucks to you; rot in this hell we've all made."

Splitting the country into three separate nations.

But we've all ready stated we won't do that (it'll screw out one, if not two of the countries of oil--which they'll bitch about)....which is why I'm sliding into the bitterness of "Iraq: go fuck yourselves. We've offered you freedom, but you don't want it. Sucks to you; rot in this hell we've all made."

The Sunnis will pitch a fit because their part has no oil and the Turks will pitch a fit because there will be a Kurdish homeland on their border. Iran will love it though. It will have a rich Shi'ite nation on it's border relying on it's military protection.

Isn't it time to leave?

That's how you left Afghanistan and look what happened.

Exactly... we can suck it up and admit we were stupid... and, incidentally, stop losing the lives of five of our children every day trying to draw lines in a sandbox...

Or, we can pretend our 'balls' are just too big, and 'stay the course' (whatever the hell THAT means this week), and continue pouring the blood of our children into the desert sands.
Well, I'd hate to say "I said so", cos I didn't. I was sure it would me more horrible than it is today.

I have great confidence on the US as an entity though... They'll find the right way after they have exhausted all other options. Bless you.

Kindly don't refer to the military men and women over there as children. They're not kids and they don't appreciate the comparison.

They are OUR children. That doesn't mean they are shitting their diapers.

That's how you left Afghanistan and look what happened.

Meh, what are you going to do? Got to leave sometime.

Well, I'd hate to say "I said so", cos I didn't. I was sure it would be more horrible than it is today.


It still might.


I have great confidence on the US as an entity though... They'll find the right way after they have exhausted all other options. Bless you.

Hopefully, they'll find the right way BEFORE all other options are exhausted. :(

The Sunnis will pitch a fit because their part has no oil and the Turks will pitch a fit because there will be a Kurdish homeland on their border. Iran will love it though. It will have a rich Shi'ite nation on it's border relying on it's military protection.

Sucks to the Iraqi people then, it looks. Sorry guys and gals: we've tried...we really have. We gave it a good run, but you just don't want us to succeed.

Or....the "impossible" will happen and the people of Iraq will actually come to running their own nation by themselves.

Or....we will leave and a military dictator takes over and sets up Ba'athist Iraq 2: Electric Boogaloo.

Or...we find out Saddam was the good guy. Then we wake up and realize the last few years have all been a dream. "What a double twist!" ~ M. Night Shyamalan.

They are OUR children. That doesn't mean they are shitting their diapers.

Most soldiers I know get rather irritated when someone refers to them as "children" and the never-popular "kids." I know the intention behind the statement; I'm telling you how it sounds to them (based on my experience).

Hopefully, they'll find the right way BEFORE all other options are exhausted. :(
Well, obviously. I just think it might be too late. The next/last option IS (might be) to leave, unfortunately for the Iraqis.

I mean, sadly, nobody can make it undone now; it is your protectorate.

You are in error.

Hussein admitted to having WMDs.

By the way, what was it that killed the Kurds in the 80s? Particularly virulent camel flatulence?

Yeah you see... He was BLUFFING! He had 0 WMD's and he said he had them so he could keep the Middle East from going to war with him.

The Kurds? Well, that's how you keep a unified Iraq stable.

Most soldiers I know get rather irritated when someone refers to them as "children" and the never-popular "kids." I know the intention behind the statement; I'm telling you how it sounds to them (based on my experience).

And, I'm saying I'm not going to worry about whether every soldier is braced not to cry before I state something that is very true in just about every case.

Every one of those soldiers is someone's baby.

When we say it is time to leave Iraq, it is because we feel we have accomplished our goals. Obviously the people who decide the deployment of US troops feel that those goals have not been met.

Who are these people? What are their goals?

Another way of looking at it is by seeing who profits from the status-quo. Now, the Iraq War costs several billion a month, correct?
Where does this money go? Into whose pockets?
These people definitely want to stay the course.

Well, obviously. I just think it might be too late. The next/last option IS (might be) to leave, unfortunately for the Iraqis.

I mean, sadly, nobody can make it undone now; it is your protectorate.

They haven't tried nuking it yet. :(

They haven't tried nuking it yet. :(Let us not go there.

No he didn't. At least not as is relevent to this war.

Since 1991, there's been only one war. The one Hussein started by invading and occupying Kuwait.

Hussein claimed to have WMDs and that he'd use them to give the US the "mother of all wars."

What does that have to do with anything? You do realize that these weapons have short shelf lives, right? Any weapons that he had in the 80s expired over a decade ago.

By the terms of the ceasefire, he was to turn these over to the inspectors.

There's a reason Iraq had sanctions placed on it after the Ceasefire.

He violated the ceasefire.

The US had three choices in '03.

Your choices presuppose a falsehood; that the US started the war.

We will leave when we are done.

We will leave when we are done.

Okay. What does being 'done' mean?

Why are US forces still stationed in Japan and Europe?

To counter a threat that is no longer imminent.

If I had the power, I'd remove all US troops from Europe. I might leave them in Japan as a frontline against China, but that may not be necessary.

and, incidentally, stop losing the lives of five of our children every day trying to draw lines in a sandbox...

*snort*

They are not children.

This is how you condescend to our fighting forces? To call them children?

To counter a threat that is no longer imminent.

If I had the power, I'd remove all US troops from Europe. I might leave them in Japan as a frontline against China, but that may not be necessary.

So you are saying we are keeping US troops in Iraq to counter a threat that is no longer imminent, and you would remove them all? Or are you saying that the reasons for US presence in Irag have nothing to do with Europe and Japan? In which case, why did you make the comparison?

Yeah you see... He was BLUFFING!

Perhaps.

So, what to do about the man in the overcoat, pointing something at you in his pocket?

He says it's a gun and he's going to kill you.
Last week, he beat up a smaller kid and you pulled him off, breaking his nose in the process.
You know that he has been brought up to seek revenge and has killed before.
So, he says he's pointing a gun at you and that he intends to shoot you.
What do you do?

For me, I'm gonna put a hole in him as fast as possible.

When his corpse is examined and found to not have a gun in his pocket - well, he shouldn't've tried that sort of bluff.

Every one of those soldiers is someone's baby.

They stopped being that when they got out of their diapers.

*snort*

They are not children.

This is how you condescend to our fighting forces? To call them children?The brave soldiers aren't referred to as 'children' in the saga of USA? Stop dissin' the troops!

Perhaps.

So, what to do about the man in the overcoat, pointing something at you in his pocket?

He says it's a gun and he's going to kill you.
Last week, he beat up a smaller kid and you pulled him off, breaking his nose in the process.
You know that he has been brought up to seek revenge and has killed before.
So, he says he's pointing a gun at you and that he intends to shoot you.
What do you do?

For me, I'm gonna put a hole in him as fast as possible.

When his corpse is examined and found to not have a gun in his pocket - well, he shouldn't've tried that sort of bluff.
Saddam wasn't dumb enough to threaten the USA. He wasn't like a guy pointing a gun at you on the street, he was like a guy hiding in his house and bluffing that if you come in to kick the shit out of him he'll shoot you.

So you are saying we are keeping US troops in Iraq to counter a threat that is no longer imminent, and you would remove them all?

No. The threat from Iraq is still imminent. That's why people are dying over there.

Once that threat is gone, I would remove the troops.

Or are you saying that the reasons for US presence in Irag have nothing to do with Europe and Japan? In which case, why did you make the comparison?

The threat in Europe is gone, so, as I would when the threat from Iraq is gone, I would remove the troops.

Saddam wasn't dumb enough to threaten the USA.

He was going to give us the "mother of all wars."

His words.

He wasn't like a guy pointing a gun at you on the street

No, because the "gun" was hidden.

he was like a guy hiding in his house and bluffing that if you come in to kick the shit out of him he'll shoot you.

And, because he had taken his neighbors house last week and had to be forcibly removed on the condition that he turn over all his guns, a claim that he will shoot you, is an admission that he has guns and has not done as he was told; to turn them over.

So, he violated probation and the cops break in and arrest him.

He was going to give us the "mother of all wars."

His words.
Yeah, if we invaded. He was scared and trying to bluff us into backing down. Saddam wasn't dumb enough to attack the USA. He was never any kind of threat to us. In fact, he could have been a more useful and dependable ally than the Saudis.


No, because the "gun" was hidden.
actually it didn't exist, but yeah, he said he was armed because he was scared shitless. He never wanted to tangle with the USA.


And, because he had taken his neighbors house last week and had to be forcibly removed on the condition that he turn over all his guns, a claim that he will shoot you, is an admission that he has guns and has not done as he was told; to turn them over.

So, he violated probation and the cops break in and arrest him.It wasn't necessary. He invaded and got smacked down by having his military decimated and sanctions and no fly zones imposed on his country. Invading has made nothing better and everything worse. The invasion wasn't necessary and it was a truly stupid move.

-SNIP-
So, he violated probation and the cops break in and arrest him. Except for this; You were way out of off your jurisdiction... can WE have your badge, please..?
Of course we can't, so at least bear the bitching.

Except for this; You were way out of your jurisdiction...

Nope.

He was targeting our aircraft.

It was our business.

Nope.

He was targeting our aircraft.

It was our business.Was that no-fly-zone UN sanctioned? If not, I don't think it was your business.

You just made it your business.
EDIT: I'll brake here. This has nothing to do with the OP...

No. The threat from Iraq is still imminent. That's why people are dying over there.

Once that threat is gone, I would remove the troops.

Okay. So the troops are in Iraq because of an imminent threat? What is this imminent threat? Who is threatened? Who is being threatening?

To me, it seems like you are confused.

Meh, what are you going to do? Got to leave sometime.

yeah, but not at this juncture.

A withdrawal would mean open war between sunnis and shias with Iran and Jordan/KSA/Syria moving in. This sectarian warfare would spread to Lebanon with Hezbollah and sunni groups fighting it out. Might spread to Pak which also has a sizeable shia population fighting targetted killings by deobandi and ahle hadith militant sunni groups. There would be mass killings on a much larger scale than what we are seeing now.

google about how Hazara shias were killed when taliban came to power. A US withdrawal would mean such things every day by both the sides. And this would spread across many countries with shia-sunni tensions.

Every possible outcome from the point of a US withdrawal now will be a disaster even when compared to the present situation. You thought the current situation is a disaster? You haven't seen nothing yet.

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/nov-2006/4/image/max.jpg

Guess the country of origin of this cartoon.

They stopped being that when they got out of their diapers.

You have no children?

No, because the "gun" was hidden.


And, as it happens, it was hidden because...? It was non-existant.

yeah, but not at this juncture.

A withdrawal would mean open war between sunnis and shias with Iran and Jordan/KSA/Syria moving in. This sectarian warfare would spread to Lebanon with Hezbollah and sunni groups fighting it out. Might spread to Pak which also has a sizeable shia population fighting targetted killings by deobandi and ahle hadith militant sunni groups. There would be mass killings on a much larger scale than what we are seeing now.

google about how Hazara shias were killed when taliban came to power. A US withdrawal would mean such things every day by both the sides. And this would spread across many countries with shia-sunni tensions.

Every possible outcome from the point of a US withdrawal now will be a disaster even when compared to the present situation. You thought the current situation is a disaster? You haven't seen nothing yet.

Muslims killing each other indiscriminately. So how come IDF, New Mitanni and Deep Kimchi aren't all for the pullout?

You mean now that you have created a helpless situation it is no longer your responsibility? Iraq was better off under Saddam than under Bush. Does that not tell you something about how rotten your nation and its elected leadership is? You all should be in the dock with Saddam now and be punished according to your crimes just as he will be.
.

Do not blame all Americans for Bush and the foolish people that helped him get "elected".
I never voted for him and have spoke out against this war to anyone who would listen since before it started.
Don't tar all Americans with the same brush.

Iraq is soooo much better off now that Saddam Hussein is gone. We are doing a lot of good for Iraq. Go ask a soldier who has served there instead of the liberal media. Liberals make me want to puke. Liberals probably do not have any friends who are soldiers because they only hang out with gays and gays cant serve.

I have a friend of mine serving in Iraq right now.
He knows my views on the war and he is cool with it because he knows that I respect him and all of our military personnel.
Being against the war does not mean you harbor any ill will to our men and women in uniform.

No logical person could ever believe that we are failing in Iraq unless you only listen to the bad news. We are cleaning terrorist clocks out there and we need to keep doing it. If you do not like it, do not join the military. Nobody is asking you to.

The Pentagon (http://thinkprogress.org/2006/11/01/pentagon-war-room/) disagrees with your rosy painting of Iraq.
Why aren't you in Iraq right now?
Maybe if you join up my friend can come home!
Sign up (http://www.goarmy.com/flindex.jsp) today if you are so gung ho to kill or be killed!

Oddly enough, we put Sadaam into power there, so technically it's always been screwed because of us.

No, we didn't. We provided substantial support, but he put himself into power.

Don't tar all Americans with the same BUSH.

Pun-fixed! :D

Do not blame all Americans for Bush and the foolish people that helped him get "elected".
I never voted for him and have spoke out against this war to anyone who would listen since before it started.
Don't tar all Americans with the same brush.

"Elected", "redistricting"... same difference, really. I wonder when the Dems are going to get the "fresh from teh grave" vote again, though. That would probably turn the tide for them.

But heh, two wrongs don't make a right to some, with voter fraud so easy these days.

Gah, sometimes I had how our system is set up.

Nouri al-Maliki has started flexing his political muscle. He's exercising his nation's right to sovereignty by objecting to the planned Republican time table and by forcing an early end to the search for an American soldier kidnapped by al-Maliki's ally, Muqtada al-Sadr.

Under these circumstances what are US troops doing in Iraq? Clearly the government over there thinks it can handle the situation. Isn't it time to leave?

http://www.insidebayarea.com/argus/news/ci_4584049

yes we should leave them to their own devices.


but if we dont get our boy back...we should waste the country to glass.

fuck them..hate to be shitty,but they kill their own on a daily basis....we should destroy that shit hole to get our boy back..if that is un pleasent to the world...fuck them...they behead people...so we should bomb them into the stone age, to get our boy back..just my uneducatwed opinion.

lol

we can basically reduce anyone to dirt...and if they have showed anything...they only respond to brute force....sucks for them...seeing as we have brute force..

if i was king for a day....they would release the israili soldier,get in fucking line with us..release our boy with an apology...or get smashed....but thats just me.
go pray to who ever...beat your women stupid...like you like to do...
blame the horrid circumsion you will perform on your daughter.....on the west,dont worry...you will have apologists...lol...


you understand,all we want is the oil...you can fuck over your wives and kids...no matter..as long as the dems can get political hay from it...no matter.


it cracks me up...all the bright bulbs here are clueless as to it's all the same....money!

yeh...vote dem...gonna change shit...lol..vote rub...thats a difference...


fucking dems and repubs are all whores....
ask an iraqi who he wants in charge...hate to say it..but probably a repub..cause dems suck,and they know it.

dems suck,repubs suck..vote for me..lol

Seriously, guys, the Iraq War?

Long over due for ret-conn ;)

but if we dont get our boy back...we should waste the country to glass.

fuck them..hate to be shitty,but they kill their own on a daily basis....we should destroy that shit hole to get our boy back..if that is un pleasent to the world...fuck them...they behead people...so we should bomb them into the stone age, to get our boy back..just my uneducatwed opinion.

lol

Not funny, and not logical.

In the USA, people kill people every day.

By your logic, you think we should 'waste' the US 'to glass' and 'bomb them into the stone age'. I don't think this is a very sensible policy for us to be arguing.

I think there are dangerous elements in EVERY society, and we shouldn't be judging ANY society by it's worst element, unless we are willing to point the same finger at ourselves.

That's how you left Afghanistan and look what happened.who left Afghanistan?
and what happened?

but if we dont get our boy back...we should waste the country to glass.

fuck them..hate to be shitty,but they kill their own on a daily basis....we should destroy that shit hole to get our boy back..if that is un pleasent to the world...fuck them...they behead people...so we should bomb them into the stone age, to get our boy back..just my uneducatwed opinion.

You're one of the reasons why the world should fear the US - not because of our strength, but because you're fucking crazy and stupid.

God Help us all if someone like you ever gets into a position of power.


if i was king for a day....they would release the israili soldier,get in fucking line with us..release our boy with an apology...or get smashed....but thats just me.

This is the United States of America, we don't have Kings. Wake up and smell the 21st century. Frankly, I'm beginning to wonder if you're American at all.

"Orderly and secular" is not the goal. The goal is democracy and civil rights. The guy was a brute and tortured and killed political and personal opponents. You might want the land of the free and the home of the brave to sit idly by as a government rapes and tortures and kills but not I. Even had we known that there were no WMDs I would still have supported it because I think torture and political prisoners are an abomination.

The people of Iraq need to be free to choose their own government. If it is theocratic that is ok as long as minority and civil rights are respected. That is the mission. Also, it is wonderful that we have an opportunity to show the people of the region that America cares about them. We are showing the world how great we are in terms of our military and our kindness. Do not detract from that. The only real problem is the expense. Maybe it is time to scale back in Iraq and move into Syria or North Korea or Sudan. But we should all be proud of what our military is achieving in Iraq.

Funny you say that, because throughout the 80's the land of the free was busy making Saddam its b**ch in the war against fundamentalist Iran, to worry about such trivial matter as mass killings and the like. You do know that
a lot of the atrocities Saddam i being charged with occurred in the 80's.

You have no children?

Correct.

And, as it happens, it was hidden because...? It was non-existant.

Isn't 20/20 hindsight wonderful?

Too bad it can't be utilized prior to the fact...

What about this?

============================
Nevertheless, it now appears that the person most responsible for the end of Ms. Plame's CIA career is Mr. Wilson. Mr. Wilson chose to go public with an explosive charge, claiming -- falsely, as it turned out -- that he had debunked reports of Iraqi uranium-shopping in Niger and that his report had circulated to senior administration officials.
============================
-- Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/31/AR2006083101460_pf.html)

False charge?

Which one?


The charge that Iraqi uranium-shopping was debunked?
The charge that his report debunking it had been circulated?


If #1, then it seems that Iraq WAS trying to buy uranium in Niger - much to the chagrin of the nay-sayers.

If #2, then it would appear that the decision-makers never received his report debunking the Iraqi shopping, thus the administration did not have that piece of intelligence available to them when deciding what to do about Iraq. So, as best as Bush knew from intel available to him, Iraq WAS trying to buy Nigerian uranium, as he was not aware of any intel to the contrary.

Again, much to the chagrin of the nay-sayers.

Myseneum:

You claim that the US forces are in Iraq to counter an imminent threat. I would like to know who is threatening whom, and how, and how US forces are countering it.

Thanks.

who left Afghanistan?
and what happened?

1989. The US left Afghanistan. Power vacuum happened -> Taliban happened -> AQ happened -> 9/11 happened.

1989. The US left Afghanistan. Power vacuum happened -> Taliban happened -> AQ happened -> 9/11 happened.so 911 happened because of Afghanistan? [/UBERsarcasm]

BTW #2 Silly me.. I always beleived it was the Soviets leaving those years. ;)
BTW #3 we Created/founded AQ..

so 911 happened because of Afghanistan? [/UBERsarcasm]

BTW #2 Silly me.. I always beleived it was the Soviets leaving those years. ;)
BTW #3 we Created/founded AQ..



Since this is complete and utter bullshit , you may want to back it up with some facts and explain yourself.

About the only CORRECT thing you left here is that the Soviets left Afghanistan.

Its been said " a Little knowledge is a dangerous thing "

Ummm your like the poster boy .

I cannot believe any decent person is against the Iraq war except for the Amish and Quakers. We are fighting a war against EVIL people. These EVIL people hate America and Israel. We are fighting them and kicking their butts. These EVIL people are against democracy. We defeated an EVIL regime headed by an EVIL tyrant.

That being said, it would be nice if we could spend significantly less money. We are certainly not paying a high price in blood as a country, although it seems that my county is taking it bad.

I cannot believe any decent person is against the Iraq war except for the Amish and Quakers. We are fighting a war against EVIL people. These EVIL people hate America and Israel. We are fighting them and kicking their butts. These EVIL people are against democracy. We defeated an EVIL regime headed by an EVIL tyrant.

That being said, it would be nice if we could spend significantly less money. We are certainly not paying a high price in blood as a country, although it seems that my county is taking it bad.

Again I see this meme of an evil enemy, but no one is telling me who this is. It's not Saddam. He's near the end of his rope. It's not Al-Qaeda, as UN forces are fighting AQ in Afghanistan, and the USA is no longer involved. Is it the Iraqi insurgency? I thought the war was over.

If the USA is in Iraq to fight 'EVIL people', we need to know who these people are and how they threaten the USA.

Again I see this meme of an evil enemy, but no one is telling me who this is. It's not Saddam. He's near the end of his rope. It's not Al-Qaeda, as UN forces are fighting AQ in Afghanistan, and the USA is no longer involved. Is it the Iraqi insurgency? I thought the war was over.

If the USA is in Iraq to fight 'EVIL people', we need to know who these people are and how they threaten the USA.

It is the Iraqi insurgency made up of pro-Iranian style whackos, jihadists, and Baathists, also there are some corrupted Iraqis who are being duped by the above into thinking that the US is an imperialist occupier instead of peacekeepers helping to provide security for the new democracy until it is able to take care of its own security.

This is pretty much just a mop up operation. It is necessary though. We cannot have another South Vietnam or Nationalist China where one of our allies is overrun.

The good guys need to hang together so none of us hang separately.

It is the Iraqi insurgency made up of pro-Iranian style whackos, jihadists, and Baathists, also there are some corrupted Iraqis who are being duped by the above into thinking that the US is an imperialist occupier instead of peacekeepers helping to provide security for the new democracy until it is able to take care of its own security.

So, why are these people evil, and how do they pose an imminent threat to the USA?

So, why are these people evil, and how do they pose an imminent threat to the USA?


Because they are murderers who commit their murders to try to undermine a democratic government. The USA is the friend of all democracies everywhere. When you mess with a democracy you mess with the USA.

Because they are murderers who commit their murders to try to undermine a democratic government. The USA is the friend of all democracies everywhere. When you mess with a democracy you mess with the USA.

Tell it to any Iranians who were around before we imposed the shah. Tell it to Central Americans. The US hasn't backed democracy, it's only opposed it's enemies.

Tell it to any Iranians who were around before we imposed the shah. Tell it to Central Americans. The US hasn't backed democracy, it's only opposed it's enemies.

Ok ok there were some shinannigans in the Cold War, but this is a new America.

Ok ok there were some shinannigans in the Cold War, but this is a new America.

Right. A new America that started a war in Iraq to instal an Iranian-friendly regime instead of using our resources to fight Al Qaeda and the taliban or to weaken Iran's bargaining position. A new, stupid America. Thanks Dubya.

Right. A new America that started a war in Iraq to instal an Iranian-friendly regime instead of using our resources to fight Al Qaeda and the taliban or to weaken Iran's bargaining position. A new, stupid America. Thanks Dubya.

Ever think that we could somehow use developments in Iraq as a pretense to invade Iran or Syria? We just have to stay the course and see if we can have a little spillover.

Ever think that we could somehow use developments in Iraq as a pretense to invade Iran or Syria? We just have to stay the course and see if we can have a little spillover.

Nope. We can't. If we attack Iran through Iraq then we'll be hit by insurgents in Iraq while our forces drive back the Iranian military. We'd put ourselves in a situation where we're attacked from all sides. Iran knows we can't do it. Why do you think they're laughing at us while their centrifuges crank out weapons grade uranium?

Because they are murderers who commit their murders to try to undermine a democratic government. The USA is the friend of all democracies everywhere. When you mess with a democracy you mess with the USA.

Your platitudes do not answer my questions. How do the insurgents comprise an imminent threat against the USA?

The good guys need to hang together so none of us hang separately.this is a new America.We just have to stay the course and see if we can have a little spillover.We are fighting a war against EVIL people. These EVIL people hate America and Israel. We are fighting them and kicking their butts. These EVIL people are against democracy. We defeated an EVIL regime headed by an EVIL tyrant.
They having a sale down at the Party Line (http://www.georgewbushstore.com/party_packs_line.htm) store, or do you just have the platform stapled to the inside of your eyelids?

Your platitudes do not answer my questions. How do the insurgents comprise an imminent threat against the USA?

The biggest threat is to stop killing them like we are doing. We need to show he world that we are not afraid to suffer casualties. Bill Clinton showed them the opposite and we need to clean up his mess with blood.

These guys are a threat because they are armed and want to kill our guys. How is this not obvious?

The biggest threat is to stop killing them like we are doing. We need to show he world that we are not afraid to suffer casualties. Bill Clinton showed them the opposite and we need to clean up his mess with blood.

These guys are a threat because they are armed and want to kill our guys. How is this not obvious?

I'll start from the beginning. The OP talks about local Iraqis telling the US soldiers to stop doing their duty. Since this has begun, the question was asked: if the Iraqis are so self-reliant, why are the US forces still there?

I have yet to find a satisfactory answer to this question.

Your answers were just slogans, or were poorly written. What does 'The biggest threat is to stop killing them like we are doing' mean, anyway?

The Iraqi insurgents are a threat to US armed forces. This is obvious. Bring the troops home and the threat is gone. Therefore this is not a reason to keep troops in Iraq.

You now claim that we have to keep US forces in Iraq so that the Iraqis know they can keep killing those men and women and the current US regime will not order them home. What is the strategy in that?

And you did not answer my other question: How do the insurgents comprise an imminent threat against the USA? Please remember, I don't mean the soldiers.

Let's roll! [Right outta Iraq]

In response to the OP,

I think its past time for US to leave Iraq. If the majority of Iraqis don't want us there, and haven't wanted us there from the start, then I think we should leave. Because that's the funny thing about democracy.

hmmmm....I wonder where they are getting the armor piercing rounds

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/11/01/world/02medic600.1.jpg
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/02/world/middleeast/02medic.html?_r=1&ei=5094&en=eca8a08d94515012&hp=&ex=1162530000&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&partner=homepage&adxnnlx=1162953171-PDsgf0UVCE3RN+f0jvRMuQ
“It was 7.62 millimeter,” he continued. “Armor piercing.”

so 911 happened because of Afghanistan? [/UBERsarcasm]

BTW #2 Silly me.. I always beleived it was the Soviets leaving those years. ;)


Well, history is a continuum and not snapshots that you can seperate to favor your own biases.

US and USSR leaving created the power vaccum. USSR withdrawal was not exactly voluntary. They did not have much of a choice in that.

You had. You chose to abandon the region to your minions KSA and Pak.

Read "Ghost wars".

BTW #3 we Created/founded AQ..

BS.

The US outsourced the actual operations to Zia whose ISI controlled where the money and arms given to them by CIA went. US can be accused of negligence and short-sighted policy, indirectly creating conditions leading to the creation of AQ.

I am no fan of US policies in that region, but you are again BSing with huge extrapolations suiting your biases.

Again, I would strongly recommend reading "Ghost wars" - the best book to date on this subject.

Ever think that we could somehow use developments in Iraq as a pretense to invade Iran or Syria? We just have to stay the course and see if we can have a little spillover.

Great, attack Syria and remove another bulwark against fundamentalism. Syria is strongly anti-al Qaeda and strongly anti-Islamic extremism. If anything, we should ally with them.