NationStates Jolt Archive

It's rather simple actually. Just start a revolution in Mexico to overthrow the corrupt existing order. End the corporatist policies, promote real left-wing solutions to the problem, and unemployment goes down, real wages go up, and we don't have to worry about illegal immigration anymore.

It's rather simple actually. Just start a revolution in Mexico to overthrow the corrupt existing order. End the corporatist policies, promote real left-wing solutions to the problem, and unemployment goes down, real wages go up, and we don't have to worry about illegal immigration anymore.

caused that worked so well in Cuba.

And Panama.

And Colombia.

And it's working so well in Iraq.

It's rather simple actually. Just start a revolution in Mexico to overthrow the corrupt existing order. End the corporatist policies, promote real left-wing solutions to the problem, and unemployment goes down, real wages go up, and we don't have to worry about illegal immigration anymore.

Actually, im pretty sure that a revolution would just create a mass number of refugees pouring into the U.S.

viva la revolucion!?

howabout you try. head down to Oaxaca, they're waiting for a chasimatic leader to start a revolution. enjoy.

Mexican government needs change. Changing it won't be a simple matter.

I don't like the idea of building a fence or a wall, but undocumented immigrants is having an effect on our economy. I don't remember how much, but a large amount of Mexico's GDP comes from money people earn in the states and send back to Mexico. I just don't think the States are that good at state building.

howabout you try. head down to Oaxaca, they're waiting for a chasimatic leader to start a revolution. enjoy.

watch out though, as the state has moved beyond just shooting mexicans, and now is shooting at the occasional indymedia journalist

A Communist revolution in Mexico would fuck up their economy beyond repair. You'd have a mass exodus on your hands.

The reason that more people did not emigrate to the US from the left-wing paradise that was the Soviet Union wasn't because life was good in the USSR. We don't need another destroyed economy due to horrible "left-wing" solutions -- Cuba's bad enough as it is.

watch out though, as the state has moved beyond just shooting mexicans, and now is shooting at the occasional indymedia journalist

heh, I only found out what was going on because a bunch of freegans are protesting in front of the NYC mexican embassy...I do rather wish they'd shot someone from a major news network and not a poor little freegan...

A Communist revolution in Mexico would fuck up their economy beyond repair. You'd have a mass exodus on your hands.

it's rather difficult to share what you don't have, isn't it? communism = intended for industrialized nations. the USSR did an admirable job, considering they had nothing but cabbage to begin with...:rolleyes:

It's rather simple actually. Just start a revolution in Mexico to overthrow the corrupt existing order. End the corporatist policies, promote real left-wing solutions to the problem, and unemployment goes down, real wages go up, and we don't have to worry about illegal immigration anymore.

As the economy collapses, the drain will increase out of Mexico, this time from the higher educated middle classes, who have the keys to economic growth and success. As the problem increases, the People's Republic of Mexico will opt for the same thing as the DDR did. They'll build an "anti-fascist protection barrier" across their northern border, and eliminate the problem for us.

The reason that more people did not emigrate to the US from the left-wing paradise that was the Soviet Union wasn't because life was good in the USSR. We don't need another destroyed economy due to horrible "left-wing" solutions -- Cuba's bad enough as it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall

Hooray Socialism! Keep out the fascists!

I have a better idea.

Everyone everywhere refuses to play the game anymore, this culture collapses, & we can rebuild in a manner that will allow humans to thrive rather than mindlessly march off to its own destruction.

I have a better idea.

Everyone everywhere refuses to play the game anymore, this culture collapses, & we can rebuild in a manner that will allow humans to thrive rather than mindlessly march off to its own destruction.

good idea. now we just need to figure out how to produce enough marijuana to get people to comply...:rolleyes:

I see lemmings. All the time.

people like mindlessly marching to their own destruction. the more I look at history and politics, the more I believe that. they seem to do it deliberately.

Oh, was that sarcasm? How drole.

Ther are thousands of people in pockets all over this planet where this culture has yet to destroy them. They manage to live without self-destruction as their progenitors did for three million years.

Maybe they know--or remember--something we don't.

The United States is attractive, can you blame oneself?

good idea. now we just need to figure out how to produce enough marijuana to get people to comply...:rolleyes:

Legalize it.

Oh, was that sarcasm? How drole.

Ther are thousands of people in pockets all over this planet where this culture has yet to destroy them. They manage to live without self-destruction as their progenitors did for three million years.

Maybe they know--or remember--something we don't.

eh. I once met an amazonian native - he was on a promotional tour for "end of the spear", with the son of the man he killed. he seemed more interested in ice cream and christianity (inasmuch as he actually followed a religion like that completely divorced from its context...) than his own culture. it was disenheartening, as I idealise indigenous cultures a great deal - modern society is diseased, and that's the natural, healthy state we were in once. however, it's the healthy state, not the cure to the disease. healthy flesh doesn't cure cancer very well.

everybody's always been obsessed with death and rebirth - maybe we're just on a death kick, and we'll come up out of it in a bit. I'm really not trying to be rude or anything, I'm just feeling rather jaded. if you have any suggestions as to how to get the western world to revert to a "natural" state, (whatever that is), I'm all ears. unfortunately, the post-modern capitalists have candy. and ice cream.

Legalize it.

now why would the US Government do something that would make sense? you forget who we're working with here.

eh. I once met an amazonian native - he was on a promotional tour for "end of the spear", with the son of the man he killed. he seemed more interested in ice cream and christianity than his own culture. it was disenheartening. everybody's always been obsessed with death and rebirth - maybe we're just on a death kick, and we'll come up out of it in a bit. I'm really not trying to be rude or anything, I'm just feeling rather jaded. if you have any suggestions as to how to get the western world to revert to a "natural" state, (whatever that is), I'm all ears. unfortunately, the post-modern capitalists have candy. and ice cream.



now why would the US Government do something that would make sense? you forget who we're working with here.

The natural state for humanity is in an unnatural world.

now why would the US Government do something that would make sense? you forget who we're working with here.

Every once in a while, the govelnment does fuck up at fucking up.

if you have any suggestions as to how to get the western world to revert to a "natural" state, (whatever that is), I'm all ears.

I do, yes. But it's a long, arduous & highly frightening at times process. Not a voyage to be taken lightly, or by those who wish to impose their own will on the world.

Simply put, we must destroy this world to save it.

I do, yes. But it's a long, arduous & highly frightening at times process. Not a voyage to be taken lightly, or by those who wish to impose their own will on the world.

Simply put, we must destroy this world to save it.

If you try, I'll do my damndest to stop you.

If you try, I'll do my damndest to stop you.

In the world I wish to create (or rather, to return to), you wouldstill be able to live wit hthe systems put into place here if you so wished. Realize, however, that we who do not would constantly be on guard against your (this) culture's viral rampaging across the planet once again.

Please note that when I say "this culture," I do not mean America or "the West" or "capitalism" or anything of the sort.

I do, yes. But it's a long, arduous & highly frightening at times process. Not a voyage to be taken lightly, or by those who wish to impose their own will on the world.

Simply put, we must destroy this world to save it.

In the world I see, you're stalking elk through the damp canyon forest around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the vines that wrap the Sears tower, and when you look down you'll see tiny figures pounding corn and laying strips of venison in the empty carpool lane of some abandoned super-highway.

I wish. in that case, though, don't we just have to step out of the way and let it kill itself? it does that, at least, very well.

Every once in a while, the govelnment does fuck up at fucking up.

haha, true.

Please note that when I say "this culture," I do not mean America or "the West" or "capitalism" or anything of the sort.

what do you mean, then?

caused that worked so well in Cuba.

And Panama.

And Colombia.

And it's working so well in Iraq.

You forgot Vietnam and Korea.


Hooray Socialism! Keep out the fascists!

The biggest proponents of fascism were one of the best things for the European economy at the time. Right up until they really put an end to immigration by killing everyone that wasn't them.

The United States is attractive, can you blame oneself?

Being Canadian, yeah, I can. Universal Health Care is tha shiznit.

In the world I wish to create (or rather, to return to), you wouldstill be able to live wit hthe systems put into place here if you so wished. Realize, however, that we who do not would constantly be on guard against your (this) culture's viral rampaging across the planet once again.

Please note that when I say "this culture," I do not mean America or "the West" or "capitalism" or anything of the sort.

You mean the consumerist, industrial culture that has brought the greatest improvements to human life that the miserable peoples of this world have ever experienced.

You mean the consumerist, industrial culture that has brought the greatest improvements to human life that the miserable peoples of this world have ever experienced.

We've got a lot of nice things, sure. If you can afford them. And what do those things do? Not much in terms of what we've lost.

You've also touched upon one of the key myths of this culture: the idea that people--ALL people, all of humanity--are miserable, worthless, & inherently flawed. They are not. Only this one culture believes that. Only this one culture adheres to the idea of "salvation," that people are supposed to be better than what & how they actually are.

come again?

From the beginning humanity has been changing nature to suit our own purposes. We've been using tools and building houses for thousands of years.

The natural state for humanity is in an unnatural world.

come again?

You mean the consumerist, industrial culture that has brought the greatest improvements to human life that the miserable peoples of this world have ever experienced.

improvements to human life? in terms of what?

You've also touched upon one of the key myths of this culture: the idea that people--ALL people, all of humanity--are miserable, worthless, & inherently flawed. They are not. Only this one culture believes that. Only this one culture adheres to the idea of "salvation," that people are supposed to be better than what & how they actually are.

thank you.

From the beginning humanity has been changing nature to suit our own purposes. We've been using tools and building houses for thousands of years.

and we've been around for hundreds of thousands.

We've got a lot of nice things, sure. If you can afford them. And what do those things do? Not much in terms of what we've lost.

What have we lost? Smallpox? Cholera? The good work of industrialization is not yet done, but it's progressing, bit by bit.

You've also touched upon one of the key myths of this culture: the idea that people--ALL people, all of humanity--are miserable, worthless, & inherently flawed. They are not. Only this one culture believes that. Only this one culture adheres to the idea of "salvation," that people are supposed to be better than what & how they actually are.

I believe that people want to live a better life, no matter what. That they dream of not having the fear of want and worry of starvation. The opening scene of 2001: A Space Odyssey encapsulates my view.

What have we lost? Smallpox? Cholera? The good work of industrialization is not yet done, but it's progressing, bit by bit.

actually most plagues like that require massive population centers - and most of them are also mutations from diseases infecting domesticated animals. plagues didn't really exist before agriculture and urbanisation. most of the problems this civilisation has solved were ones it created in the first place.

I believe the Mexican government is supporting illegal immigration, the US should threaten to go to war with them if they don't lift a finger to stop it. Besides if America invades Mexico, it gets more oil and there's less of a reason to fight in Iraq, plus Mexico would finally show us respect and admit they lost the war over Texas.

and we've been around for hundreds of thousands.

Our ancestors were using tools well before they were even pereceptibly human. Chimps use tools.

Why we haven't been able to experience the gains of the last few milennia previously is obvious. People were just struggling to survive. Our ancestors rarely lived past 20, and all they sought to do was just to survive. But they slowly improved their ability to survive. They didn't have the time to think about luxury and comfort. They wanted to live to 20, fuck, and have as many kids as possible before they died. Technology developed slowly because people didn't have time to develop technology.

Our ancestors were using tools well before they were even pereceptibly human. Chimps use tools.

Why we haven't been able to experience the gains of the last few milennia previously is obvious. People were just struggling to survive. Our ancestors rarely lived past 20, and all they sought to do was just to survive. But they slowly improved their ability to survive. They didn't have the time to think about luxury and comfort. They wanted to live to 20, fuck, and have as many kids as possible before they died. Technology developed slowly because people didn't have time to develop technology.

again, hunter gatherers actually lived longer than their agrarian counterparts. they got more variety in their diet and worked much less - had much more leisure time, and their societies are much, much, much less stratified. I'm not against the concept of tools period...I mean, come on, I'm usuing a laptop and wireless internet to write this, but we need to look at them in a different way.

actually most plagues like that require massive population centers - and most of them are also mutations from diseases infecting domesticated animals. plagues didn't really exist before agriculture and urbanisation. most of the problems this civilisation has solved were ones it created in the first place.

Not exactly. The occurence of these dieseases has risen since the birth of civilization, but they existed and infected before then. Syphillis, for example, is documented extremely far back in human history, as well as other dieseases.

again, hunter gatherers actually lived longer than their agrarian counterparts. they got more variety in their diet and worked much less - had much more leisure time, and their societies are much, much, much less stratified. I'm not against the concept of tools period...I mean, come on, I'm usuing a laptop and wireless internet to write this, but we need to look at them in a different way.

At the time period, but since then our lifespans have more than doubled.

Diseases are necessary. There's a reason there are checks & balances in ecology. By blatantly & intentionally removing ourselves from those laws--which, I might add, we are still governed by regardless of what we might think--this culture has put itself along the path of destruction. In this case, post hoc, ergo propter hoc is a actualism.

I believe the Mexican government is supporting illegal immigration, the US should threaten to go to war with them if they don't lift a finger to stop it.
1.) kiss all credibility good bye, besides I don't think illegal immigration is a legitimate reason to go to war with a country, Iraq has already alienated most of our former and current allies. Best thing to do when your in a hole, is to stop diggin'.
2.) did you ever stop to think that maybe the dysfunctional mexican gov't can't handle the human tidal wave roaring over the Rio Grande?

Besides if America invades Mexico, it gets more oil and there's less of a reason to fight in Iraq,
We're already stuck in Iraq, regardless of oil availability.

plus Mexico would finally show us respect and admit they lost the war over Texas.
They already do, and they already have.

At the time period, but since then our lifespans have more than doubled.

no they haven't. lifespan is the same as it ever was, maybe a couple years longer.

It's rather simple actually. Just start a revolution in Mexico to overthrow the corrupt existing order. End the corporatist policies, promote real left-wing solutions to the problem, and unemployment goes down, real wages go up, and we don't have to worry about illegal immigration anymore.

i'll stick witha fence...trip wires and machine gun nests.

i dont want to get into nation building or overthrows...always backfire.

better to build a fence,shot to kill orders will discourage most,and relax legal immigration.

problem solved,no drug gangs or human trafficers,and legit people can imigrate with the relaxed rules(or expedited rules)

cant keep things as they are..it is a cancer on the country as it is now,plus many decent people are dying in the desert after being abandoned by their coyotes.

let them come legally...and prevent ms-13 and others from coming here illegally..not that complicated really.

no they haven't. lifespan is the same as it ever was, maybe a couple years longer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy

Not quite true.

Not exactly. The occurence of these dieseases has risen since the birth of civilization, but they existed and infected before then. Syphillis, for example, is documented extremely far back in human history, as well as other dieseases.

no, almost all the major killers have been diseases created by civilization. they evolved specifically because of permanent settlements, domestication, and agriculture.

no, almost all the major killers have been diseases created by civilization. they evolved specifically because of permanent settlements, domestication, and agriculture.

They've spread because of human population density, but they did not come into existence because of civilization. Increasing human interaction did this. Such things as African Hemmhoragic fevers go undetected because people in that region are so very un-interconnected.

Just out of curiosity, are there any (other) Daniel Quinn advocates around here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy

Not quite true.

span =/ expectancy

and in terms of expectancy, it took us 10,000 years to get our life expectancies back up to what they were before the rise of agriculture. and even longer when we look outside of the richest societies on the planet - where some still haven't gotten back there.

They've spread because of human population density, but they did not come into existence because of civilization.

yes, they did. they evolved because of the new conditions of stationary living in large groups in close contact with domesticated animals. they did not exist before then.

It's rather simple actually. Just start a revolution in Mexico to overthrow the corrupt existing order. End the corporatist policies, promote real left-wing solutions to the problem, and unemployment goes down, real wages go up, and we don't have to worry about illegal immigration anymore.

*dies of laughter*

It's rather simple actually. Just start a revolution in Mexico to overthrow the corrupt existing order. End the corporatist policies, promote real left-wing solutions to the problem, and unemployment goes down, real wages go up, and we don't have to worry about illegal immigration anymore.

Meh, annexing Mexico would be more fun.

Meh, annexing Mexico would be more fun.

That's just what Winfield Scott said!

Just out of curiosity, are there any (other) Daniel Quinn advocates around here?

i've read his stuff. but i was already an anarchist with an anthropology degree at the time.

That's just what Winfield Scott said!

He's my hero

Mexico just had an election, are you kidding me, they narrowly rejected liberalism. You're right, changing the existing order for a government that cares about the welfare of its people would do a lot to reduce the number of people trying to immigrate from Mexico to the United States. But you know what? They just had an election, and the United States backed the far right Calderon. As a country that claims to care about democracy we should support democratic governance, and as much I think Calderon will be bad for Mexico, he is their elected leader, and the best thing for that country is stability. If the democratic order succeeds in Mexico (as it appears to be heading towards) and the people accept that democratic order then we'll start to see the positive changes that are needed develope. But overthrowing a democratically elected government would just create massive instability and show the United States to be the bully that it has been time and time again. Furthermore this is slightly hillarious since the United States backed Calderon, so the guy we want is in power anyway. Where did you get this hairbrained idea? Silly person.

Mexican government needs change. Changing it won't be a simple matter.

I don't like the idea of building a fence or a wall, but undocumented immigrants is having an effect on our economy. I don't remember how much, but a large amount of Mexico's GDP comes from money people earn in the states and send back to Mexico. I just don't think the States are that good at state building.

Their top two sources of income are money from immigrants (legal and otherwise) in the US (Tens of Billions of $) and Drug Money (also tens of billions).

Their top two sources of income are money from immigrants (legal and otherwise) in the US (Tens of Billions of $) and Drug Money (also tens of billions).

Mexico exports 1.8 million barrells of oil a day, their top industries are food and beverages, tobacco, chemicals, iron and steel, petroleum, mining, textiles, clothing, motor vehicles, consumer durables, and tourism. Sure, there is some drug money, and sure a lot of money gets shipped back from the United States, but its not a top source of income, it helps some very poor people, but that's it.

Mexico has a 3% real growth rate, prices are climbing by 4% annually, and the GINI index measuring social inequality is extremely high at 54, that's one of the highest GINI index numbers in the world, Lesotho tops the charts at 63. If you compare the real GDP of the United States and Mexico its no wonder people want to come, and with the United States offering precious few legal visas people have no real choice but to come to the United States with a much lower GINI index (though still high, 45) and a hell of a lot more jobs and opportunities that pay a much higher wage.

These people ride north with some of the worst most exploitive people on the planet, they cross rivers and deserts, they dodge law enforcement. To leap through all the hurdles one must truly be dedicated to finding a niche in the United States. That is not good for Mexico, for its most hard working citizens, those most driven to succeed economically are fleeing that country for the United States. This was a silly post to start the thread, but he was right about one thing, Mexico needs reforms for illegal immigration to be reduced, it needs growth and it needs equality in opportunities. Until that happens people will continue to come north into the United States and there's nothing the Mexican government can do about it.