NationStates Jolt Archive

So, if you think that the republicans are a threat to the U.S. and our democracy and believe that they could try to turn our nation into a facist state what are you prepared to do in order to stop that from happening? What if they had too strong a grip on congress and controlled the white house following 2008? If you don't think that they would even come close to turning the U.S. into a facist state then why do you think that?

I made you a new hat.

http://www.blogfordemocracy.org/archives/Lester%20Tin%20Foil.jpg

Now get back to watching Loose Change.

Really, I don't know what you're worried about. The liberals are overly afraid that the Republicans are going to turn this nation into a Christian theocracy (as much as I would like to see it, it isn't going to happen). And the conservatives are overly afraid that the Democrats are going to take us to social anarchy with a communist economic system (which is, in my opinion, slighty more believable than the liberals' fears).

One group is going to become so caught up with the fact that their fears are being realized (A Democratic President!!! Another Republican Congress!!!) that they will rebel and the US will fall apart into anarchy.

Fun times are coming. Just be patient.

Anyone claiming we are fascist or fears that we are turning into a fascist is an ignorant boob. :)

I made you a new hat.

http://www.blogfordemocracy.org/archives/Lester%20Tin%20Foil.jpg

Now get back to watching Loose Change.

Ok just so u know, if i would answer one of my questions it would have to be the last. I've just seen some very polarized liberals on this forum make that claim so i wanted to make a formal thread about it.

http://www.bushflash.com/swf/14.swf
.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html

Quit using sensationalist language.

Just voice your discontent about your freedoms as citizens being attacked when you go to the polls. If that doesn't work and the government still won't let you alone, consider moving overseas...these days the world is a global village, and you wouldn't stick with any other service provider if you were dissatisfied with their performance, would you.

Ok just so u know, if i would answer one of my questions it would have to be the last. I've just seen some very polarized liberals on this forum make that claim so i wanted to make a formal thread about it.

Gotcah

Really, I don't know what you're worried about. The liberals are overly afraid that the Republicans are going to turn this nation into a Christian theocracy (as much as I would like to see it, it isn't going to happen). And the conservatives are overly afraid that the Democrats are going to take us to social anarchy with a communist economic system (which is, in my opinion, slighty more believable than the liberals' fears).

One group is going to become so caught up with the fact that their fears are being realized (A Democratic President!!! Another Republican Congress!!!) that they will rebel and the US will fall apart into anarchy.

Fun times are coming. Just be patient.


Why would you want to see a Christian Theocracy?

I really wish people would learn to spell "fascist" properly.

Heh, if the U.S. gets bad, I got me guns, and I shall be in open rebellion.

Of course, I'm not expecting it to get that bad anytime soon. The Repubs have pissed to many people off recently, and they will lose power, and everything they did that was "fascist" in a sense will be rerouted, and the Democrats will have power for a while, do some things that will in turn be "fascist" in a sense, people will get pissed off and the cycle renews.

Either that, or one party will die, and the other will have full control for a short time, until it Branches off into two new parties, resembling what we have now, and the system is back on track.

http://www.bushflash.com/swf/14.swf
.

Tinfoil conspiracy bullshit. Let me guess, you're going to blame the Jews here somehow.

Why would you want to see a Christian Theocracy?

That's for another thread. Don't want to hijack this one. Especially not on the first page. :)

(as much as I would like to see it, it isn't going to happen)
And good thing, too, otherwise I'd have to go about starting a revolution. And that is way stressful, y'know?

http://www.bushflash.com/swf/14.swf
.

Okay, im gonna assume that you are an american. If you really think that you were in danger of becoming the citizen of a fascist nation what are you doing about it? Are you getting military training so that you can resist the gov't? Are you forming any voting blocs to prevent this? No you are not. I could at least respect you if you acted upon your beliefs but now there is nothing.

Why would you want to see a Christian Theocracy?
He's a hardcore Calvinist who thinks we're all going to hell except for a select few automatically saved by "grace".

There, you may return to your non-hijacked thread.

This message has been brought to you by Kryozerkia - serving up delusioned responses since... ever!

And good thing, too, otherwise I'd have to go about starting a revolution. And that is way stressful, y'know?

So proves my post.

I really wish people would learn to spell "fascist" properly.

My bad. I knew it looked weird.

I really wish people would learn to spell "fascist" properly.

i really wish that someone would start a political movement based around face from the a-team

So proves my post.
And which post was that again? Either way, the day America becomes a Christian theocracy or a corporate police state is the day I take up arms, call up my friends, and hop in my El Camino.

Really, I don't know what you're worried about. The liberals are overly afraid that the Republicans are going to turn this nation into a Christian theocracy (as much as I would like to see it, it isn't going to happen). And the conservatives are overly afraid that the Democrats are going to take us to social anarchy with a communist economic system (which is, in my opinion, slighty more believable than the liberals' fears).

One group is going to become so caught up with the fact that their fears are being realized (A Democratic President!!! Another Republican Congress!!!) that they will rebel and the US will fall apart into anarchy.

Fun times are coming. Just be patient.
You managed to be crazier than the OP.

You managed to be crazier than the OP.

How is my question crazy? I simply asked where people get the idea that the U.S. is becoming fascist. We have lowered the restrictions on laws before to deal with a specific threat and out gov't still isn't fascist.

You managed to be crazier than the OP.

I think time will see me validated.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html

Quit using sensationalist language.

Just voice your discontent about your freedoms as citizens being attacked when you go to the polls. If that doesn't work and the government still won't let you alone, consider moving overseas...these days the world is a global village, and you wouldn't stick with any other service provider if you were dissatisfied with their performance, would you.

The problem is, of course, that every other country in the world is more repressive than the US, so the dissatisfied have nowhere to flee to.

I am worried about the Centralization of government which the Republican leadership have caused throughout their 6 year dominance. I am worried about the PATRIOT Act, about warrant-less wire-tapping, about E-Voting machines, about the Military Commissions Act and so on and so forth, not to mention that I am inclined to distrust the Republican party out of hand, because I resent them for what their party did in the Civil War.

What I have to say on the matter however, is that the only way I could be talked into voting Republican, is if my alternative was Nancy Pelosi, Hilary Clinton, Harry Reid and Ted Kennedy (shudder).

The Republicans, mostly the leadership, are not true Fiscal Conservatives, they are not true Social Conservatives, they simply manipulate the Conservative base, the majority in the country, to gain votes and power. They laugh at Christian Conservatives, making noise about abortion and gays but not lifting a finger in the long run, and they spend like mad, almost as bad as Democrats. Rather than raising taxes they just put us in debt to potential enemies like China, and print more dollars. The Leadership even betrayed Conservative Americans on the issue of Illegal Immigration, merging the Republican leadership with the Liberal Minority to pass their Amnesty bill (that luckily died in the long run).

Meanwhile, the Democrats do want to raise taxes, make abortions easier, grant amnesty to anyone who ain't white (future Democrats!) and take away our guns. The Democrats ideal would be to make America mirror the Leftist-Nightmare that is Europe, stern Gun-Control, gays running rampant, Abortions for everyone, welfare-statism, encouraging the growth of huge, vocal and violent minorities and thought-Crime political Correctness laws, that can put you in prison for saying anything offensive (rather than just getting you sued for it, like it is now).


I wish there where a third party. I really do. Second best bet is to vote against incumbants every time, I suppose.

I wish there where a third party. I really do. Second best bet is to vote against incumbants every time, I suppose.
You could just move to Canada - minority governments get nothing done and give us lots to whine about! And you have a third party to vote for!

http://www.bushflash.com/swf/14.swf
.

ahaha, I love the picture of bush heiling at the end. photography + politics is a weird combination.

rampant sexism is one of those 14 catagories...how is the bush administration rampantly sexist? is Condi secretly a man? how many female elected officials are there now? we have high ranking, prominent females in all three branches of the government. even harsh outright opposition to feminism is not the same thing as sexism. I say this as a certified gone-in-drag, goddess-worshipping, traditional gender-role despising homosexual. the first person to accuse me of being a patriarchal bigot will be promptly given a bad make-over by the gay mafia.

....while the mass media in this country is irresponsible and doesn't report *real* news, it's not state controlled. it certainly does leave much to be desired, though.

of course, the other 12 I think are right on target...which is pretty sad - these two are perhaps the least important of the 14. oh well. boys will be boys...and governments will be systems for disenfranchising the general population while increasing the power and priveledge of those who already had it...

Wait, does everyone here really think that terrorism is the first threat that laws were made directly to counter that could be construed as taking away freedoms? Try almost every anti-mob law ever created. Many of which go back to the '20s. As far as i know, we havn't been a fascist state yet.

Wait, does everyone here really think that terrorism is the first threat that laws were made directly to counter that could be construid as taking away freedoms? Try almost every anti-mob law ever created. Many of which go back to the '20s. As far as i know, we havn't been a fascist state yet.

I never said that.

And wanna know what I think?


...weasels!!!!!!

The problem is, of course, that every other country in the world is more repressive than the US, so the dissatisfied have nowhere to flee to.
See, that's not actually true. I know they like to tell that to themselves in the States...but fact of the matter is that much of Europe and many of the newly industrialised countries have government institutions that work more efficiently, impede less on their citizen's freedoms and are just generally better.

Estonia in particular - flat taxes, complete freedom of the press and it wins the award for "most free country" every year.

Here is the list: http://www.freewebs.com/globalliberty/rankings.htm

So, if you think that the republicans are a threat to the U.S. and our democracy and believe that they could try to turn our nation into a facist state what are you prepared to do in order to stop that from happening? What if they had too strong a grip on congress and controlled the white house following 2008? If you don't think that they would even come close to turning the U.S. into a facist state then why do you think that?


Ummm elections happen every year...things change ...people come and go...did you just ome out of a coma or something ?

The Democrats ideal would be to make America mirror the Leftist-Nightmare that is Europe, stern Gun-Control, gays running rampant, Abortions for everyone, welfare-statism, encouraging the growth of huge, vocal and violent minorities and thought-Crime political Correctness laws, that can put you in prison for saying anything offensive (rather than just getting you sued for it, like it is now).

you can have my gun when you pry it from my child's cold, dead fingers! and we all know what gay people do when they run rampant. off-broadway hits and fashionable boutiques and the occasional well-groomed sports team. the horror! they disrespect all our traditional values, thinking like this should be a crime! how can we let them act like this in public?? oh wait...:headbang:

the democrats don't care any more about gay rights than the republicans do. like you said, it's a wedge issue. they don't actually care about abortions (thank God, I'm against that too) or the environment any more than republicans care about gay people or fiscal responsibility.

...could you run over the bit about "huge minorities" again? how is a minority huge? and heaven forbid they be vocal! they should keep quiet and stay in their little designated minority areas, the violent bastards. I know what will prevent violence, lets give everybody guns!:rolleyes:

Ummm elections happen every year...things change ...people come and go...did you just ome out of a coma or something ?

Ummm, i don't think that i ever said that elections don't happen every year. I was addressing the OP towards people who think that our country is in danger of becoming fascist.

Ummm, i don't think that i ever said that elections don't happen every year. I was addressing the OP towards people who think that our country is in danger of becoming fascist.

So vote anti facist . we do it all the time...the problem is you have people on this board that think Stop signs are facist.

See, that's not actually true. I know they like to tell that to themselves in the States...but fact of the matter is that much of Europe and many of the newly industrialised countries have government institutions that work more efficiently, impede less on their citizen's freedoms and are just generally better.

Estonia in particular - flat taxes, complete freedom of the press and it wins the award for "most free country" every year.

Here is the list: http://www.freewebs.com/globalliberty/rankings.htm

estonia? really? interesting...*brushes up his russian*

or is it estonian?

The Democrats ideal would be to make America mirror the Leftist-Nightmare that is Europe,

If by "leftist-nightmare" you mean "higher standard of living, wealthier(higher GDP per capita), socially more equal, fiscally more responsible and all that sort of thing" then I'm very glad Europe (and I'm excluding the recently joined eastern countries, just going with "old" Europe here and Scandinavia) is a "leftist-nightmare"

stern Gun-Control,

Lower crime rates.

gays running rampant

Minority rights, liberty, freedom, and equality. The very things the US is meant to stand for.

, Abortions for everyone,

Abortions for women who want abortions and who have every right to decide what to do with their own bodies.

welfare-statism,

Excellent healthcare provision for all, excellent education for all etc.

encouraging the growth of huge, vocal and violent minorities

They may be large minorities, but they have roughly similar crime rates as any other group at similar social level.

and thought-Crime political Correctness laws, that can put you in prison for saying anything offensive (rather than just getting you sued for it, like it is now).

You mean "can put you in prison for inciting violence towards an individual or group because of their race, gender, sexuality etc."? Saying something offensive is still perfectly legal in, as far as I know, the whole EU.

The concept of a fascist US is really some sort of leftist wet dream.

The Democrats ideal would be to make America mirror the Leftist-Nightmare that is Europe, stern Gun-Control, gays running rampant, Abortions for everyone, welfare-statism, encouraging the growth of huge, vocal and violent minorities and thought-Crime political Correctness laws, that can put you in prison for saying anything offensive (rather than just getting you sued for it, like it is now).
You haven't been over to Europe, have you?

estonia? really? interesting...*brushes up his russian*

or is it estonian?
Yup. :) Related to Finnish. Talking Russian, you might not be greeted too friendly in those parts ;)

Ok, You can all call the leftist "crazy", "paranoid" and "delusional", but lets look at the facts.

In the recent months the Republicans have,

1. Made it LEGAL for ANY American Citizen to be arrested and tried without Due Process, (as long as they were simply *suspected* of terrorism)AND TOURTERED! do you hear me! American citizens can now be legally tourtered! NO trail, NO jourey. If you even get a trail, it is a military one. Meaning, well, ha, it should'nt even be called a trial. Right before the election took place they signed this into bill.
2. They made it LEGAL for ANY American Citizen to be tapped, searched, and investigated, WITHOUT and suspicion of a crime, without court orders, without warrants.
3. The Government can take away your house, and your property, and give you a real weak price in return with the new eminent domian laws.
4. They put together the funding to build "Immigration Detention Centers" across America, on abandoned military bases, Prisons, and newly constructed camps out in the rural countryside. These are supposedly going to be for "an Immigration Influx" to control it. Well, hey, we've been having one of those for about 20 years now, they're not building them for that, They're building them for something else. I don't know what, but they're building camps...with trains running to them...ok dude...call me paranoid, fine, do it. Call me crazy, tell me to put my tinfoil hat on. But they've pissed all over the Constitution of the United States which MILLIONS of Americans have died to protect...They're building fucking camps...They're secreting all the power and money they can to themselves...it looks like a fucking nightmare waiting to happen....

The problem is, of course, that every other country in the world is more repressive than the US, so the dissatisfied have nowhere to flee to.

I am worried about the Centralization of government which the Republican leadership have caused throughout their 6 year dominance. I am worried about the PATRIOT Act, about warrant-less wire-tapping, about E-Voting machines, about the Military Commissions Act and so on and so forth, not to mention that I am inclined to distrust the Republican party out of hand, because I resent them for what their party did in the Civil War.

What I have to say on the matter however, is that the only way I could be talked into voting Republican, is if my alternative was Nancy Pelosi, Hilary Clinton, Harry Reid and Ted Kennedy (shudder).

The Republicans, mostly the leadership, are not true Fiscal Conservatives, they are not true Social Conservatives, they simply manipulate the Conservative base, the majority in the country, to gain votes and power. They laugh at Christian Conservatives, making noise about abortion and gays but not lifting a finger in the long run, and they spend like mad, almost as bad as Democrats. Rather than raising taxes they just put us in debt to potential enemies like China, and print more dollars. The Leadership even betrayed Conservative Americans on the issue of Illegal Immigration, merging the Republican leadership with the Liberal Minority to pass their Amnesty bill (that luckily died in the long run).

Meanwhile, the Democrats do want to raise taxes, make abortions easier, grant amnesty to anyone who ain't white (future Democrats!) and take away our guns. The Democrats ideal would be to make America mirror the Leftist-Nightmare that is Europe, stern Gun-Control, gays running rampant, Abortions for everyone, welfare-statism, encouraging the growth of huge, vocal and violent minorities and thought-Crime political Correctness laws, that can put you in prison for saying anything offensive (rather than just getting you sued for it, like it is now).


I wish there where a third party. I really do. Second best bet is to vote against incumbants every time, I suppose.

Thank the lords of Kobol (better than god which is fiction, all the same) that i was not educated in the United States of America. I didnt realize that some americans actually believe the illusions US government is filling them with.. who ever said gays are running rampant. (wow ive seen One ( Thats 1) gay in the last year or so (well one that openly shows his sexual preference in public) so not quite rampant.. And dont start talking about gayparades thats like in 2-3 countries in europe and even then thats very minor part of the population (Theres actually more Homosexual people in the States than in EU[please note that i do not judge gay people. its their choice entirely])

And gun-control laws in the states is a laugh.. do you people actually think that if you got a gun, it makes you any safer if every wacko and his cousin has a gun too??? And to the point gun-control laws vary greatly from country to country.. (take Swiss for example, hell most people got the frikkin' guns from the military, and then theres finland where you need to apply the permission for holding personal weapons from the police..[and guess if theyre giving you one if ya got a criminal record??) Hell you got the biggest murder rates in the whole damn planet? (way to go NRA *hooray*)

Abortions.. hmm lets say 50% of european countries give them prior to 12weeks on quite "easy" reasons (like young age, psychological conditions, inherited diseases etc..) and most of the rest are almost more wackos in denieing them than your so called conservatists.

Finally i get to speak about my favorite. Social Welfare.. where have you been the last 6months or so?? Havent seen the news about the riots in france.. On most of the european soil social welfare can barely give enough for unemployed people to buy food (few exceptions are but thats only a few from Many). And in most of the countries applying for social welfare aid you have to go through a bureucracy even the pentagon hasnt seen coming. (As before there are exceptions.)

Thought-Crime political Correctness laws?.. Lets all go buy tinhats shall we?.
And no turkey or poland and the like do NOT represent the majority of the europe nor the European Union. Hell in some countries in EU the police arresting someone for stating his opinion (no matter the opinion [as long as the person is not exciting the people to riots or the like]) WILL get suspended and in most cases tried.

And for all the americans here i want to press that i dont think every american is a thoughtless drone (hell far from it) but you have to admit that you have lot of them and even more of the people whom are passive and do not try to affect politics even in the slightest way and then accuse politicos for the failure all together.. What you need is Three Brand New Partys and none of the existing ones.

(Feel free to comment any of the points above but DO it in a constructive manner as most of us really dont want to fight trolls and the like)

Ok, You can all call the leftist "crazy", "paranoid" and "delusional", but lets look at the facts.

In the recent months the Republicans have,

1. Made it LEGAL for ANY American Citizen to be arrested and tried without Due Process, (as long as they were simply *suspected* of terrorism)AND TOURTERED! do you hear me! American citizens can now be legally tourtered! NO trail, NO jourey. If you even get a trail, it is a military one. Meaning, well, ha, it should'nt even be called a trial. Right before the election took place they signed this into bill.
There have already been laws passed that have been in effect for quite a bit of time that give the gov't extroadinary power against the people and they have not been misused. I don't see any reason to believe that this will be different.
2. They made it LEGAL for ANY American Citizen to be tapped, searched, and investigated, WITHOUT and suspicion of a crime, without court orders, without warrants.
Anybody can be declared the member criminal organization w/o evidence and have the same consequences. That has been in effect since at least 1970 and still no fascism.
3. The Government can take away your house, and your property, and give you a real weak price in return with the new eminent domian laws.
That can be misused but if it was limited to taking property for road construction or another essential gov't building then it would be serving its purpose.
4. They put together the funding to build "Immigration Detention Centers" across America, on abandoned military bases, Prisons, and newly constructed camps out in the rural countryside. These are supposedly going to be for "an Immigration Influx" to control it. Well, hey, we've been having one of those for about 20 years now, they're not building them for that, They're building them for something else. I don't know what, but they're building camps...with trains running to them...ok dude...call me paranoid, fine, do it. Call me crazy, tell me to put my tinfoil hat on. But they've pissed all over the Constitution of the United States which MILLIONS of Americans have died to protect...They're building fucking camps...They're secreting all the power and money they can to themselves...it looks like a fucking nightmare waiting to happen....[/QUOTE]

That is just pot head conspiracy theory making and you know it.

Yup. :) Related to Finnish. Talking Russian, you might not be greeted too friendly in those parts ;)

ah. I've heard good things about the little baltic languages. did you know a latvian can understand spoken sanskrit?? somehow latvian didn't change very far from proto-indo-european. unless I'm thinking lithuanian, but I think it was latvian. linguistics is so very interesting...

The concept of a fascist US is really some sort of leftist wet dream.

though that's mainly from the cold sweat we wake up in when we remember once again that nobody even attempted to create a constitutional crisis when bush declared it his divine right to be able to disappear people - in fact, they went and codified it for him.

you have to admit that you have lot of them and even more of the people whom are passive and do not try to affect politics even in the slightest way

american politics is a fucking joke. the two major parties are nearly identical, and the system is rigged to the point no other party is getting into power short of a national crisis of unprecidented scale. there is very, very little hope for any kind of responsible government here. give an entire nation its freedom and they give it all away to the first person with a expensive advertising campaign. as far as I can tell from american politics, the only difference between democracy and tyrany is that american tyrants are much better at managing PR. no one thinks for themselves or takes responsibility for anything - and I don't have the faintest idea how to change that.

I really wish people would learn to spell "fascist" properly.

I'm starting to swing around to the position that if you can't be arsed learning to spell 'fascism' you probably deserve to live under it.

As far as i know, we havn't been a fascist state yet.

by those 14 definitions somebody posted early - we've been one for generations.

The problem is, of course, that every other country in the world is more repressive than the US, so the dissatisfied have nowhere to flee to.

Let me guess - you are an American and this was taught to you by the American education system, mass media and government?

Okay, im gonna assume that you are an american. If you really think that you were in danger of becoming the citizen of a fascist nation what are you doing about it? Are you getting military training so that you can resist the gov't? Are you forming any voting blocs to prevent this? No you are not. I could at least respect you if you acted upon your beliefs but now there is nothing.Your assumption is wrong.
.

by those 14 definitions somebody posted early - we've been one for generations.

Those 14 definitions were made to fit the U.S. not to fit a fascist state. They are completely idiotic.

There have already been laws passed that have been in effect for quite a bit of time that give the gov't extroadinary power against the people and they have not been misused. I don't see any reason to believe that this will be different.

Anybody can be declared the member criminal organization w/o evidence and have the same consequences. That has been in effect since at least 1970 and still no fascism.

That can be misused but if it was limited to taking property for road construction or another essential gov't building then it would be serving its purpose.
4. They put together the funding to build "Immigration Detention Centers" across America, on abandoned military bases, Prisons, and newly constructed camps out in the rural countryside. These are supposedly going to be for "an Immigration Influx" to control it. Well, hey, we've been having one of those for about 20 years now, they're not building them for that, They're building them for something else. I don't know what, but they're building camps...with trains running to them...ok dude...call me paranoid, fine, do it. Call me crazy, tell me to put my tinfoil hat on. But they've pissed all over the Constitution of the United States which MILLIONS of Americans have died to protect...They're building fucking camps...They're secreting all the power and money they can to themselves...it looks like a fucking nightmare waiting to happen....

That is just pot head conspiracy theory making and you know it.[/QUOTE]



What the fuck are you talking about? Nothing you said is true, and for that "pot head conspiracy" try looking up things like THE NEWS. I dont get this shit from 3rd rate conspiracy theory BS websites. Its on TV, its in the Newspaper, its all over credible news,

When arguing points, when someone makes one, don't just throw out, thats just nonsense, argue a valid point.

First of all,

That can be misused but if it was limited to taking property for road construction or another essential gov't building then it would be serving its purpose.

Correct however, They have changed the eminent domain law, This isnt some random misuse of power, this is an all out change of the situation. They take your place for a weak price, and then, they dont have to build a government structure any more, it could be a freaking shopping mall or a damn wal-mart,

Anybody can be declared the member criminal organization w/o evidence and have the same consequences. That has been in effect since at least 1970 and still no fascism.

Thats just plain not true, I am well into history at all levels and the only thing similar to what you said is things that have happened WITHOUT the governments consent. Those took place under the vise of individuals. Unless you are counting when Japanese citizens were put into concentration camps, and I'm pretty sure thats not looked at as a bright spot on American history. What has happened it unprecedented. The Government has made it Legal for not only the executive branch, but Bush himself, to declare ANY American Citizen a terrorist, and have the arrested, no due process, no trial, and tourtered for info. Which means, if he really wanted to push it, he could declare that any Person that speaks out against him and the Admin. Is helping the Terrorists by weakening the Administrations power, because they need as much as they can to win the war. Therfore, anyone who speaks out is now a traitor, and can be arrested and tourtered, If he wanted to, he could now do it, legally. Will he? I dont know, I have to go do more important shit than this now....

Those 14 definitions were made to fit the U.S. not to fit a fascist state. They are completely idiotic.

no they weren't. Did you just make that statement up in your head? probably.

Your assumption is wrong.
.

then why do you even care?

no they weren't. Did you just make that statement up in your head? probably.

Did they make that list before or after 9/11? How did they come up w/ 14 characteristics? Why did they leave out that most fascist states are born b/c of a need for strong leadership after a military defeat or out of a military coup. Neither of which happened in the U.S. Why did they leave out that most fascist gov't limit the amount of education their citizens get while this gov't implements new laws to try to better public education?

then why do you even care?Because unfortunately US politics have a global impact.
.

What the fuck are you talking about? Nothing you said is true, and for that "pot head conspiracy" try looking up things like THE NEWS. I dont get this shit from 3rd rate conspiracy theory BS websites. Its on TV, its in the Newspaper, its all over credible news,
Actually, you took a little bit of truth and then made your own theory off of it.


First of all,



Anybody can be declared the member criminal organization w/o evidence and have the same consequences. That has been in effect since at least 1970 and still no fascism.

Thats just plain not true,st him and the Admin.

Actually, it is true. I forget which exact section it is but it is in the RIOC act of i believe 1970. Mabye you don't know as much as you think.

Because unfortunately US politics have a global impact.
.

I'm sure that you don't want us meddling in other nations internal affairs so don't meddle in ours.

...Your government spies on you and has cut back many civil liberties for "homeland security". One of the main characteristics of fascism is the sacrifice of the individual or his/her freedom for the "greater aim".
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I'm sure that you don't want us meddling in other nations internal affairs so don't meddle in ours.The US is constantly meddling in other countries' internal affairs. E.g. your government is abducting foreign citizens to torture them, just because they look Middle Eastern. Your government is using Gestapo methods.
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Democrats are the problems not Republicans!

Your government spies on you and has cut back many civil liberties for "homeland security". One of the main characteristics of fascism is the sacrifice of the individual or his/her freedom for the "greater aim".
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That's one of the basic characteristics of government and the social contract.

Democrats are the problems not Republicans!Well, Democrats have not set up concentration camps for alleged political opponents yet. Republicans have.
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Unless the "Government" somehow removes the right to vote, or holds the electoral college at gunpoint and forces them to vote one way, we will not become a fascist nation until the people make it one.

Your government spies on you and has cut back many civil liberties for "homeland security". One of the main characteristics of fascism is the sacrifice of the individual or his/her freedom for the "greater aim".
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Thats hyperbole to the highest degree. There is no difference in the daily lives of any american due to "civil liberties being repealed." The gov't wire tapping program is done by impersonal computers looking for keywords. I don't exactly think of it as an invasion of privacy.

The US is constantly meddling in other countries' internal affairs. E.g. your government is abducting foreign citizens to torture them, just because they look Middle Eastern. Your government is using Gestapo methods.
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Oh ok, so two wrongs make a right.

I've read this thread and clearly extreme right or left destroys freedom and causes hell for everyone which is the reason I'm a centrist. In fact radicals throughout history ruin democracy, check out these nations. Philipines, 1930 Germany, and now the U.S itself! Radicals destroy! And I especially don't want America to fall to the left side because I live in a liberal state which causes hell for me everyday, I've seen enough commie madness and I hope it never engulfs the whole U.S.

Oh ok, so two wrongs make a right.

Not only Foriegn citizens, but also AMERICAN citizens.

Those 14 definitions were made to fit the U.S. not to fit a fascist state. They are completely idiotic.

They're heavily politically motivated, designed as a specific attack on a certain political opponent.

That's one of the basic characteristics of government and the social contract.Intercepting phone calls is one of the basic characteristics of government? Or putting someone in prison without charges and without defense is one of the basic characteristics of the social contract?
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That's one of the basic characteristics of government and the social contract.

Nope. Not in America. Our social contract says you are not to be bullied by your own government or you have to right to overthrow it.

by those 14 definitions somebody posted early - we've been one for generations.

Virtually all of those definitions are representative of any state, or of the human psychological condition in general.

Nope. Not in America. Our social contract says you are not to be bullied by your own government or you have to right to overthrow it.

Why don't you just respond to post 55?

Intercepting phone calls is one of the basic characteristics of government? Or putting someone in prison without charges and without defense is one of the basic characteristics of the social contract?
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No, the generalities built into the 14 points of fascism thing.

I'm not defending those things, I think they're totally idiotic, but I think you folks are pulling something shocking Godwin-esque.

Intercepting phone calls is one of the basic characteristics of government? Or putting someone in prison without charges and without defense is one of the basic characteristics of the social contract?
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Not to mention tourtering them.

Why don't you just respond to post 55?

I'm not here to play games with children.

They're heavily politically motivated, designed as a specific attack on a certain political opponent.Your country is obsessed with national symbols, with the military, and with religion. That is an indicator for something. The criteria for calling a group or a nation fascist have been around for a long time, but recently your country managed to fit into more and more of them. That does not make the criteria politically motivated.
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Not to mention tourtering them.

Once again, the charge that is being made is that the US Government is fascist, a claim which this charge does not prove at all. Sure, the Bush Administration sucks really hard, and they've instituted some really bad policies, but the US is clearly not fascist.

I'm not here to play games with children.

1st- I'm not a child

2nd- You fucked up when you said that there was no law that said that and now that you have been proven wrong you are ignoring it. That my friend is one of the most childish things that you can do. Just admit that you were wrong.

Well, Democrats have not set up concentration camps for alleged political opponents yet. Republicans have.
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yo gimme some of what your smokin dude ....:D

Why don't you just respond to post 55?

Well ok, if you seriously believe, that American Citizens, can, and should be arrested with out suspicsion warning, with out due process, Then tourtered, fucking tourtered with out a trial, and that US citizens, can and should be tapped without court order, visualy and audioly, and that the government can take your house for a wal-mart, and restrict what you say in public, then you certainly have a warped Idea of what America stands for.

Your country is obsessed with national symbols, with the military, and with religion. That is an indicator for something. The criteria for calling a group or a nation fascist have been around for a long time, but recently your country managed to fit into more and more of them. That does not make the criteria politically motivated.
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Wow, you have obviously never been to america. Out of every 200 houses mabye one has a U.S. flag outside. There are many more people who would never join the military and are anti-war than otherwise. And the vast majority is against the abandoning of the seperation of church and state. B/c of your ignorance, you are wrong on every count. Better luck next time.

1st- I'm not a child

2nd- You fucked up when you said that there was no law that said that and now that you have been proven wrong you are ignoring it. That my friend is one of the most childish things that you can do. Just admit that you were wrong.

See post 79. You sick child.

Once again, the charge that is being made is that the US Government is fascist, a claim which this charge does not prove at all. Sure, the Bush Administration sucks really hard, and they've instituted some really bad policies, but the US is clearly not fascist.However you are only one tiny tiny step away from that.
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Well ok, if you seriously believe, that American Citizens, can, and should be arrested with out suspicsion warning, with out due process, Then tourtered, fucking tourtered with out a trial, and that US citizens, can and should be tapped without court order, visualy and audioly, and that the government can take your house for a wal-mart, and restrict what you say in public, then you certainly have a warped Idea of what America stands for.

They should not have those things done to them. However, the gov't has had the power to do so for many years but has not. That proves that the gov't is not the big bad guy that you make it out to be.

Democrats are the problems not Republicans!

Well, that's certainly swayed me. Your carefully constructed and impressively put argument has blown away all the convictions I've held for years and turned me into a Republican.

Thank you for opening my eyes and allowing the light in.

Your country is obsessed with national symbols, with the military, and with religion. That is an indicator for something. The criteria for calling a group or a nation fascist have been around for a long time, but recently your country managed to fit into more and more of them. That does not make the criteria politically motivated.
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Dr. Britt's criteria are considered to be fundamentally flawed, and designed with a specific bias in mind. Being fascist is far more complex than 14 generalities that can be easily applied to virtually any state.



From what I can tell we are far from obsessed with any of those. Religion gets attention from a minority of extremely vocal Christian Fundamentalists. They are a minority, and not the primary policy setter in the US.

The emphasis on the military is nowhere near as strong as one would think. Rarely since before the Second World War has the military taken up a smaller portion of the economy than it does now.

The American emphasis on national symbols is a result of our poorly defined sense of national identity. Many of the things that define other nations cannot be so easily applied to the US. We have no common religion, language or ethnicity. Most all of our foods are imported and adapted, most all of our styles are imported and adapted. We focus on the things that we can identify with our nation to fill in this gap. It's an important psychological factor.

Well ok, if you seriously believe, that American Citizens, can, and should be arrested with out suspicsion warning, with out due process, Then tourtered, fucking tourtered with out a trial, and that US citizens, can and should be tapped without court order, visualy and audioly, and that the government can take your house for a wal-mart, and restrict what you say in public, then you certainly have a warped Idea of what America stands for.

I am against the "arresting without due process" but fine with the "spying" on my conversations and whatnot. Most of what people do these days is no longer private anyhow, what with the internet and crazy h4x0rz. I do not plan on doing anything incriminating/illegal and therefore do not fear someone spying on a phone conversation to a telemarketer or a post on NSG...

They should not have those things done to them. However, the gov't has had the power to do so for many years but has not. That proves that the gov't is not the big bad guy that you make it out to be.

Well yes, the government has had and used this power threwout history in the wrong way. But in-doing so threwout history they have not had consent of the congress and or the other branches of government to do so, it has technically been illegal what they have done in the past, (example: Napalming the shit out Cambodian civilians during Vietnam) however what has happened now is that congress has made it a priority to do these things, AGAINST the wishes of the people. Or at least from what I see it is against the wishes of the people. And do it legally. Which is sick.

I am against the "arresting without due process" but fine with the "spying" on my conversations and whatnot. Most of what people do these days is no longer private anyhow, what with the internet and crazy h4x0rz. I do not plan on doing anything incriminating/illegal and therefore do not fear someone spying on a phone conversation to a telemarketer or a post on NSG...

Well true, you may not have anything to hide...but are you really going to trust someone with that much power? and sure you may not intentionally commit a crime, but if you slip up one to many times and have an outburst or two, its off you go...

Well yes, the government has had and used this power threwout history in the wrong way. But in-doing so threwout history they have not had consent of the congress and or the other branches of government to do so, it has technically been illegal what they have done in the past, (example: Napalming the shit out Cambodian civilians during Vietnam) however what has happened now is that congress has made it a priority to do these things, AGAINST the wishes of the people. Or at least from what I see it is against the wishes of the people. And do it legally. Which is sick.

Whoa, no you are going into a completely different arena. That is our policy of waging war, not our internal policies and our form of gov't. We are talking about offenses against U.S. citizens, not cambodians. Being at war doesn't make a country fascist.

What's even worse is that the video with the 14 points is extremely selective when it picks the photos it chose to display. It cherry picked images that supported it's argument, ignoring things that would run contrary to their argument.

Well true, you may not have anything to hide...but are you really going to trust someone with that much power? and sure you may not intentionally commit a crime, but if you slip up one to many times and have an outburst or two, its off you go...

Unfourtunately for you, the gov't has had this power for quite a bit and has not abused it as of yet.

Dr. Britt's criteria are considered to be fundamentally flawed, and designed with a specific bias in mind. Being fascist is far more complex than 14 generalities that can be easily applied to virtually any state.



From what I can tell we are far from obsessed with any of those. Religion gets attention from a minority of extremely vocal Christian Fundamentalists. They are a minority, and not the primary policy setter in the US.

The emphasis on the military is nowhere near as strong as one would think. Rarely since before the Second World War has the military taken up a smaller portion of the economy than it does now.

The American emphasis on national symbols is a result of our poorly defined sense of national identity. Many of the things that define other nations cannot be so easily applied to the US. We have no common religion, language or ethnicity. Most all of our foods are imported and adapted, most all of our styles are imported and adapted. We focus on the things that we can identify with our nation to fill in this gap. It's an important psychological factor.OK, for Godwin's sake, Germany's population after WW1 was not fascist at all, nevertheless somehow a fascist regime managed to establish itself. It seems it is sufficient that one group that has a fascist mindset and is elevated to power can turn the entire country fascist, mainly because of people's laziness. Tell me, why was Bush elected for a second term although you could have known what he was doing and planning? Weren't you concerned about the bills he proposed all aimed at giving the government more powers to act unchecked?

@Barbaric Tribes: throughout

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Those 14 definitions were made to fit the U.S. not to fit a fascist state. They are completely idiotic.

I wasn't saying they were accurate.

I wasn't saying they were accurate.

I really don't even remember when i posted that so can you either drop it or tell me where i posted it?

What's even worse is that the video with the 14 points is extremely selective when it picks the photos it chose to display. It cherry picked images that supported it's argument, ignoring things that would run contrary to their argument.Don't dwell too much on the video. Even without the video one could suspect fascistoid tendencies in the government just from following the news each day. And I am not forgetting the two (unsuccessful) wars your country started to allegedly enhance your security.
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Wow wow wow, no you are going into a completely different arena. That is our policy of waging war, not our internal policies and our form of gov't. We are talking about offenses against U.S. citizens, not cambodians. Being at war doesn't make a country fascist.

I know this, I was using that as an example. And I don't believe the US is a fascist state right now. But the fact that the US congress has made these things legal, and preferable for the executive branch to do discusts me as an Ameican citizen and as a soldier sword to defend the US constitution. I know the US has done plenty of things in the past against many different peoples and places including are own. But the way they are doing this makes it look like they are trying to slide the US into a police state. Not Fascism in my opinion, but a police state. There can be large differences. And another thing, about the current congress and administration putting all these things into effect: Even if the Bush Admin, and the current members of the Executive branch use this power completley benevolently *ha* Whats to stop Future admins from doing so?

OK, for Godwin's sake, Germany's population after WW1 was not fascist at all, nevertheless somehow a fascist regime managed to establish itself. It seems it is sufficient that one group that has a fascist mindset and is elevated to power can turn the entire country fascist, mainly because of people's laziness. Tell me, why was Bush elected for a second term although you could have known what he was doing and planning? Weren't you concerned about the bills he proposed all aimed at giving the government more powers to act unchecked?

@Barbaric Tribes: throughout

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However, the german people felt that the entire world was against them (and they were largely right) which led to an extremely deep feeling of nationalism. Bush isn't planning anything. No we weren'n concerned. Where have you been?

OK, for Godwin's sake, Germany's population after WW1 was not fascist at all, nevertheless somehow a fascist regime managed to establish itself. It seems it is sufficient that one group that has a fascist mindset and is elevated to power can turn the entire country fascist, mainly because of people's laziness. Tell me, why was Bush elected for a second term although you could have known what he was doing and planning? Weren't you concerned about the bills he proposed all aimed at giving the government more powers to act unchecked?

@Barbaric Tribes: throughout

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The US-Weimar Republic analogy is deeply flawed, because their situations are not even remotely similar. The people of Weimar Germany were in desperate straits, recently suffered a humiliating defeat, torn by civil strife and in an immense economic slump. They allowed Hitler to come to power because he seemed to be better than the chaos they'd been experiencing since 1918.

And yes, I am concerned about the bills allowing the government increasing powers, but there's a difference between a mild authoritarian shift and fascism. You know why it's tolerable? Because there's going to be a shift to more liberal policies in the next two elections. Just like how the democratic system has worked in the US for two centuries.

Unfourtunately for you, the gov't has had this power for quite a bit and has not abused it as of yet.

So? they haven't abused it yet? what kind of statement is that? Thats like saying, well we've had nukes for so long and haven't had a nuclear war yet so its never going to happen. AndThis technology has only been around for about 10-15 years...and its only getting more advanced, You just can't trust someone with so much power. Thats why America built something called Democracy. Because theres only one thing a person with a large amount of power wants, more power. And Absolute power corrupts absolutley.

I know this, I was using that as an example. And I don't believe the US is a fascist state right now. But the fact that the US congress has made these things legal, and preferable for the executive branch to do discusts me as an Ameican citizen and as a soldier sword to defend the US constitution. I know the US has done plenty of things in the past against many different peoples and places including are own. But the way they are doing this makes it look like they are trying to slide the US into a police state. Not Fascism in my opinion, but a police state. There can be large differences. And another thing, about the current congress and administration putting all these things into effect: Even if the Bush Admin, and the current members of the Executive branch use this power completley benevolently *ha* Whats to stop Future admins from doing so?

Personally? I despise torture, it's a totally despicable act, not to mention useless as an intelligence gathering tool. But, I'd far rather it be codified and legalized, than just having it happening in back corners and closets, where it is unaccountable to the elected representatives of the people.

I know this, I was using that as an example. And I don't believe the US is a fascist state right now. But the fact that the US congress has made these things legal, and preferable for the executive branch to do discusts me as an Ameican citizen and as a soldier sword to defend the US constitution. I know the US has done plenty of things in the past against many different peoples and places including are own. But the way they are doing this makes it look like they are trying to slide the US into a police state. Not Fascism in my opinion, but a police state. There can be large differences. And another thing, about the current congress and administration putting all these things into effect: Even if the Bush Admin, and the current members of the Executive branch use this power completley benevolently *ha* Whats to stop Future admins from doing so?

1st- The use of Napalm is against U.S. law so just stfu.

2nd- Do you expect me to believe that you are a U.S. soldier?

3rd- The thing that will stop them is congress, the supreme court, every U.S. citizen, and the fact that the majority of our officials don't act in a corrupt way like you have been brain washed to believe.

4th- Your entire argument is slippery-slope. I thought that liberals hated this logic and left it for conservatives.

Mild authoritarian shift? Does that include Guantanamo? And starting a war on Iraq for no reason?
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So? they haven't abused it yet? what kind of statement is that? Thats like saying, well we've had nukes for so long and haven't had a nuclear war yet so its never going to happen. AndThis technology has only been around for about 10-15 years...and its only getting more advanced, You just can't trust someone with so much power. Thats why America built something called Democracy. Because theres only one thing a person with a large amount of power wants, more power. And Absolute power corrupts absolutley.

Do you really think that we are going to get into a nuclear war? I would argue that level of power that the gov't has humbles you and makes you realize that you need to act responsibly. It is not corrupting.

Do you really think that we are going to get into a nuclear war?I guess that is why Bush ordered dirty bombs and small nukes. I call that nuclear, don't you?
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Mild authoritarian shift? Does that include Guantanamo? And starting a war on Iraq for no reason?
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Yeppers on Guantanamo.

And while I think their reasoning on invading Iraq sucked, it wasn't without reason. There is sufficient evidence that they viewed Saddam Hussein as a threat to the US and US interests, and they looked for evidence that supported that view. They made several key psychological errors when they did what they did, but it wasn't without reason.

I guess that is why Bush ordered dirty bombs and small nukes. I call that nuclear, don't you?
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Are you nuts?

No one, NO ONE, in the US government is even remotely thinking about using nuclear weapons in a first strike against anyone.

I really don't even remember when i posted that so can you either drop it or tell me where i posted it?

drop it? I never picked it up...I said by the definition of those 14 points, america had been fascist for generations - you said they were bullshit (I'm paraphrasing) and I replied "I never said they were accurate".

No one, NO ONE, in the US government is even remotely thinking about using nuclear weapons in a first strike against anyone.I do not share your faith in the mental sanity of your leadership. Folks who have no problem dehumanizing alleged political opponents and putting them into concentration camps and who have no problem invading a country on the grounds of a remotely possible threat (if at all, since Saddam surely didn't care enough for the distant US (of which he had only recently been such a close ally)) surely have no problem with using nuclear material on considered threats as well and sell it to the US public as reasonable.
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I do not share your faith in the mental sanity of your leadership. Folks who have no problem dehumanizing alleged political opponents and putting them into concentration camps and who have no problem invading a country on the grounds of a remotely possible threat (if at all, since Saddam surely didn't care enough for the distant US (of which he had only recently been such a close ally)) surely have no problem with using nuclear material on considered threats as well and sell it to the US public as reasonable.
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Ally is a really strong word to describe the US-Saddam relationship.

Furthermore, the US government is not suicidal.

Ally is a really strong word to describe the US-Saddam relationship.What? Do you not remember when Saddam was USAmerica's darling as he fought against Iran and when Rumsfeld was the US special envoy to Saddam to provide him with the best possible weaponry? Or when Saddam asked the US if he could do something against the Kuwaitis?

Furthermore, the US government is not suicidal.I think they would very well use dirty bombs or small nukes against guerillas that would have no means to strike back in the same way. Like against Iraqi insurgents or against Afghanis hiding bin Laden. As soon as you government has such weapons they will surely find a way to use them.
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Do you really think that we are going to get into a nuclear war? I would argue that level of power that the gov't has humbles you and makes you realize that you need to act responsibly. It is not corrupting.

WOW. Just WOW. You Don't think a Nuclear war is possible? what kind of moron are you? And the fact that you believe this.. I would argue that level of power that the gov't has humbles you and makes you realize that you need to act responsibly. Is absolutley just....weird? yeah, weird, You can go ahead and live in a nation like that but as long as I'm here, and as long as the constitution is here. I'm fighting for my rights as long as yours.

And btw your comment about Napalm, and the US not using it, IS UTTER BULLSHIT. We Napalmed the living hell out Vietnam, you know nothing about history. And if you think we're not using it now you're wrong. The US doesn't obey any more rules of war the communist China does. For good reason too however, some of those rules are just plain stupid. But we have used Napalm, and continue to use it, this I swear to you, however much you don't believe a word I say.

What? Do you not remember when Saddam was USAmerica's darling as he fought against Iran and when Rumsfeld was the US special envoy to Saddam to provide him with the best possible weaponry? Or when saddam asked the US if he could do something against the Kuwaities?
You do realize that the US was providing weapons to both sides in that war, right? It was a cynical ploy to get two enemies to destroy each other.

Furthermore, the Kuwait problem is the result of a lot of mistakes, by a lot of people. Hussein did not ask the US for permission, and the response was that Kuwait wasn't that important.

I think they would very well use dirty bombs or small nukes against guerillas that would have no means to strike back in the same way. Like against Iraqi insurgents or against Afghanis hiding bin Laden. As soon as you government has such weapons they will surely find a way to use them.
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There's more to the world than just Afghan and Iraqis. There's economic ties and economic trade with Europe, losing that would hurt, a lot.

[QUOTE=East Pusna;11889308]

3rd- The thing that will stop them is congress, the supreme court, every U.S. citizen, and the fact that the majority of our officials don't act in a corrupt way like you have been brain washed to believe.

[QUOTE]

Hey, that congress HAS GIVEN THEM THE AUTHORITY TO DO ALL OF THIS. CONGRESS WILL NOT STOP THIS.

"problem dehumanizing alleged political opponents and putting them into concentration camps" (East of Eden is Nod)
hrm.. 'dehumanizing'.. certainly...

Concentration camps?
Link please.

The US is constantly meddling in other countries' internal affairs. E.g. your government is abducting foreign citizens to torture them, just because they look Middle Eastern. Your government is using Gestapo methods.
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Dont worry people we always have the chance to ambush american officials in europe by sniping them from tall buildings. If some american authorities (police or military) were doing something other than escorting Diplomats i would gladly take out my .338 Sniper rifle and shoot the living hell out of them. (Which would be the quite the same they are doing every few years to foreign officials guards/assistants etc. Wonder why those cases very rarely break the news in the US or Rest of the World media???)

*CIA tracks you:sniper: * :p

Thank the lords of Kobol (better than god which is fiction, all the same) that i was not educated in the United States of America. I didnt realize that some americans actually believe the illusions US government is filling them with.. who ever said gays are running rampant. (wow ive seen One ( Thats 1) gay in the last year or so (well one that openly shows his sexual preference in public) so not quite rampant.. And dont start talking about gayparades thats like in 2-3 countries in europe and even then thats very minor part of the population (Theres actually more Homosexual people in the States than in EU[please note that i do not judge gay people. its their choice entirely])


Gay Rights laws are stronger in Europe than America, I'm pretty sure the Big Three, France Germany and Britain allow Gay Marriage (pr Civil Unions) and allow gays to join the military. Political Correctness laws are more stringent in the Big Three also. The only reason there's more Gays in America than the EU is because the EU includes so many Conservative eastern and southern European Countries. Britain, France, Germany, Scandinavia, are all as I describe them.

And gun-control laws in the states is a laugh.. do you people actually think that if you got a gun, it makes you any safer if every wacko and his cousin has a gun too???

Yes. Yes I do. If the wacko realizes everyone around him has a gun, he'll be less likely to use his, and more likely to be incapacitated before using his if he does.

And to the point gun-control laws vary greatly from country to country.. (take Swiss for example, hell most people got the frikkin' guns from the military, and then theres finland where you need to apply the permission for holding personal weapons from the police..[and guess if theyre giving you one if ya got a criminal record??)

The biggest and richest countries in Europe still apply to the stereotype I pointed out above.

Hell you got the biggest murder rates in the whole damn planet? (way to go NRA *hooray*)

I am afraid that is factually incorrect. We are not number one for generic crimes, we are number 8, I believe, behind 7 third-world countries. Australia and England have banned personal ownership of guns, and Australia's crime rate has risen steadily since then, rising 6.7% from 1997-99. England, of course, is ranked second for murders amongst Industrialized nations, also despite banning firearms.

Switzerland, with the highest per capita firepower in the world, on the other hand, is well below New Zealand, England, Australia and Canada, all of whom have liberal gun control laws.

In America, firearms ownership has more than doubled since 1991, and crime rates have steadily lowered from then to now. Murder is down 43 percent, Rape down 22%, Aggravated Assault down 28% and Robbery down 47%. About 99.8% of Firearms and more than 99.6% of Handguns in America will not be used in a given year to commit a crime.

Gun-Control only serves to remove responsibility from Mankind at large, and place it in the hands of the government, thereby paving the way for Totalitarianism. By disarming the people, you ensure that they cannot rebel against an unjust government.

How can you honestly say that you don't think people should be able to rebel against a tyrannical government? Or do you honestly believe that no government could ever become tyrannical?

Furthermore, by removing the means of self-defense from the public you emasculate, them, resulting in a people incapable of defending themselves, whether they work for the government or not. Case in point, the ongoing violence in France caused by "Youths" IE Middle-Eastern Muslim Immigrants and Descendants of such.

The French public lacks the equipment and mental means to defend itself, and the government wont let the police defend them.

Abortions.. hmm lets say 50% of european countries give them prior to 12weeks on quite "easy" reasons (like young age, psychological conditions, inherited diseases etc..) and most of the rest are almost more wackos in denieing them than your so called conservatists.

Once more, I am referring to the largest and richest European countries, not Poland and Bulgaria.

Finally i get to speak about my favorite. Social Welfare.. where have you been the last 6months or so?? Havent seen the news about the riots in france.. On most of the european soil social welfare can barely give enough for unemployed people to buy food (few exceptions are but thats only a few from Many). And in most of the countries applying for social welfare aid you have to go through a bureucracy even the pentagon hasnt seen coming. (As before there are exceptions.)

The richest and largest nations of Europe universally are welfare states. The fact that France can no longer afford to buy off the Arabs only shows one of the many reasons welfare states are no good.

Thought-Crime political Correctness laws?.. Lets all go buy tinhats shall we?.
And no turkey or poland and the like do NOT represent the majority of the europe nor the European Union. Hell in some countries in EU the police arresting someone for stating his opinion (no matter the opinion [as long as the person is not exciting the people to riots or the like]) WILL get suspended and in most cases tried.

A certain historian was recently extradited from Austria to Germany, tried and convicted for denying the Holocaust. Various musicians in Germany have been jailed for "Inciting Racial Hatred", and recently this (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=410150&in_page_id=1770) happened in England. A 14 year old girl was thrown in prison for three hours because she asked to be transferred from a study group of five Middle Eastern persons, because four of them couldn't speak English. She was harassed by the teacher for this, then arrested by the School's policeman. The charge was, quote: "Suspicion of Committing a Section 5 Racial Public Order Offense". Tin hat indeed.

And for all the americans here i want to press that i dont think every american is a thoughtless drone (hell far from it) but you have to admit that you have lot of them and even more of the people whom are passive and do not try to affect politics even in the slightest way and then accuse politicos for the failure all together.. What you need is Three Brand New Partys and none of the existing ones.

Amen. At least three parties.

What the heck is a "Facist?" Someone who believes in faces?

And btw your comment about Napalm, and the US not using it, IS UTTER BULLSHIT. We Napalmed the living hell out Vietnam, you know nothing about history.

Yea, 60 years ago. It is now against the law to use it.

Are you nuts?

No one, NO ONE, in the US government is even remotely thinking about using nuclear weapons in a first strike against anyone.

I do recall reading about bush pushing for funding to develope tactical "battlefield nukes"

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/11/07/MNGO12SD981.DTL

america is not democratic. 2-party systems don't count in my opinion.

You do realize that the US was providing weapons to both sides in that war, right? It was a cynical ploy to get two enemies to destroy each other..

America only supplied weapons to Iran in the hope of gaining Iranian aid in securing hostage releases in Lebanon. However the US provided funds, a greater range of weaponry, funding, satellite data and intelligence intercepts to Iraq at the same time. Iraq was always favoured as a means of re-establishing control of Iran and eventually Iran was dropped entirely. It was never a case of trying to get "two enemies to destroy each other".

Gay Rights laws are stronger in Europe than America, I'm pretty sure the Big Three, France Germany and Britain allow Gay Marriage (pr Civil Unions) and allow gays to join the military. Political Correctness laws are more stringent in the Big Three also. The only reason there's more Gays in America than the EU is because the EU includes so many Conservative eastern and southern European Countries. Britain, France, Germany, Scandinavia, are all as I describe them.



Yes. Yes I do. If the wacko realizes everyone around him has a gun, he'll be less likely to use his, and more likely to be incapacitated before using his if he does.



The biggest and richest countries in Europe still apply to the stereotype I pointed out above.



I am afraid that is factually incorrect. We are not number one for generic crimes, we are number 8, I believe, behind 7 third-world countries. Australia and England have banned personal ownership of guns, and Australia's crime rate has risen steadily since then, rising 6.7% from 1997-99. England, of course, is ranked second for murders amongst Industrialized nations, also despite banning firearms.

Switzerland, with the highest per capita firepower in the world, on the other hand, is well below New Zealand, England, Australia and Canada, all of whom have liberal gun control laws.

In America, firearms ownership has more than doubled since 1991, and crime rates have steadily lowered from then to now. Murder is down 43 percent, Rape down 22%, Aggravated Assault down 28% and Robbery down 47%. About 99.8% of Firearms and more than 99.6% of Handguns in America will not be used in a given year to commit a crime.

Gun-Control only serves to remove responsibility from Mankind at large, and place it in the hands of the government, thereby paving the way for Totalitarianism. By disarming the people, you ensure that they cannot rebel against an unjust government.

How can you honestly say that you don't think people should be able to rebel against a tyrannical government? Or do you honestly believe that no government could ever become tyrannical?

Furthermore, by removing the means of self-defense from the public you emasculate, them, resulting in a people incapable of defending themselves, whether they work for the government or not. Case in point, the ongoing violence in France caused by "Youths" IE Middle-Eastern Muslim Immigrants and Descendants of such.

The French public lacks the equipment and mental means to defend itself, and the government wont let the police defend them.



Once more, I am referring to the largest and richest European countries, not Poland and Bulgaria.



The richest and largest nations of Europe universally are welfare states. The fact that France can no longer afford to buy off the Arabs only shows one of the many reasons welfare states are no good.



A certain historian was recently extradited from Austria to Germany, tried and convicted for denying the Holocaust. Various musicians in Germany have been jailed for "Inciting Racial Hatred", and recently this (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=410150&in_page_id=1770) happened in England. A 14 year old girl was thrown in prison for three hours because she asked to be transferred from a study group of five Middle Eastern persons, because four of them couldn't speak English. She was harassed by the teacher for this, then arrested by the School's policeman. The charge was, quote: "Suspicion of Committing a Section 5 Racial Public Order Offense". Tin hat indeed.



Amen. At least three parties.

I suppose im going to have to buy you a flying ticket to europe after our debate just to let you see how things are in person but lets get to business shall we.

The big three are on average more conservative yes but it still doesnt rebuke the fact that the strictness laws actually have no effect in persons sexual direction and gays will go around publicly anyway unless you want to throw them in jail (hopefully not). Therefore wether you enact more openminded laws to gay people isnt really going to make the difference about how much gay people you have (I repeat myself but i do not judge people on their sexual preference wether it be heterosexual or gay/bisexual)

As for the gun-control laws.. it is the peoples psychological conditions that affect how likely he is to use a gun not wether your every neighbour has one or not.. the countries in europe that have high crime inspite of strict gun-control laws isnt actually about the control of the weapons itself but repeatedly it points to social inequality. (and having strict laws about guns doesnt mean you cant have one.. most people in europe just dont think its necessary because people generally dont have weapons and they dont feel threatened or the need to own a personal defence weapon.) The purpose of those laws is to prohibit weapons from people uncapable of carrying the responsibility of owning one which means no one with unstable mental conditions may carry or own a weapon / And tried criminals can not own nor carry weapons for obvious reasons. (in most countries criminal record entries go old after 10years from the crime except for murder and manslaughter) I for one own a .22 caliber Walther P22 Target (target has 5.5cm longer barrel.. additionally i have a lasersight and a silencer for it) and also L115A1 lapua chambered sniper rifle's civilian version (in finland meaning no bigger than 3round clips.) It still doesnt make me a criminal but what about known criminals carrying weapons, you think they must have the right to weapons for defence against and oppressive gov (ie police coming to arrest them).

As for Switzerland they have compulsory military service and get their personal guns to home. Again its about the mentality not the guns it self. and even in switzerland the application for a gun is not an automatic approval process.

Generic crimes have dropped in states no doubt but the amount of gun compared to population has been so out of proportion that theres several civilian owned weapon REGISTERED toward every citizen that it really isnt the personal ownership of the guns that has gotten you crime rates down. (lets not even talk about the amount of unregisted guns in the states :mp5: ) And the murder rates are among if not biggest in the world.

And more guns to the french hooray lets start the civilwar today shall we?
Whats a few more dead people anyways? and the problems in france are mostly because of a totally disastrous management of economy, sure theyre economy is big but its highly inefficient and the french never tried to buy off the arabs as theyre keeping the minority on the edge of starvation (hence the crime rates go up because of failed social programs.) The french goverment is treating minorities like Class two citizens and criminals. What they fail to see is that poverty creates crime they try to combat with more strict laws. and the police forces most likely would refuse if they were ordered to use more harsh methods than their current riot authorizations are.


And the ability to defend against tyranny? Think of a country that has general population of 5million and the country has compulsory military service with way over half the male population with basic infantry training and their advanced training ( they dont get salary for the time they serve ) and each soldier has awowed to uphold the constitution and democracy individually. ( basically this would give any soldier the right to arrest and detain politicos or military personnel trying a coup or the like.) with active wartime personnel of 400000 (each one a civilian when not in times of war) what do you think, is tyranny likely or even possible to happen (by the way finnish army has wartime equipment reserves twice the amount of soldiers so we got guns too)

And sorry to say this but in here police officers are almost 100% dedicated to the safety of the people not their personal greed.

As for the violations on freedom of speech those are few individual cases and certainly dont represent the EU at large (theres still 25 countries and 450+ million residents in EU) especially when its the countries that have other social problems at the same time that violate those freedoms and i dare say that thats just a few cases since in here press acts like a pack of hellhounds the second they sniff something wrong with the way authorities are acting.

Im running out of time now but please point out if i forgot to answer something and may i say its a pleasure to debate with you as you do it in very constructive way and try to be polite (which is a lot more than you can say about most americans when you critizise the way United States works.). Im looking forward on debating with you more.