NationStates Jolt Archive

Cheers to all! I do wish upon you the blessings of God on this Glourious Day.

Happy Reformation Day to all!

Out of love for the truth and the desire to bring it to light, the following propositions will be discussed at Wittenberg, under the presidency of the Reverend Father Martin Luther, Master of Arts and of Sacred Theology, and Lecturer in Ordinary on the same at that place. Wherefore he requests that those who are unable to be present and debate orally with us, may do so by letter.

In the Name our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

1. Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said Poenitentiam agite, willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance.

2. This word cannot be understood to mean sacramental penance, i.e., confession and satisfaction, which is administered by the priests.

3. Yet it means not inward repentance only; nay, there is no inward repentance which does not outwardly work divers mortifications of the flesh.

4. The penalty [of sin], therefore, continues so long as hatred of self continues; for this is the true inward repentance, and continues until our entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

5. The pope does not intend to remit, and cannot remit any penalties other than those which he has imposed either by his own authority or by that of the Canons.

6. The pope cannot remit any guilt, except by declaring that it has been remitted by God and by assenting to God's remission; though, to be sure, he may grant remission in cases reserved to his judgment. If his right to grant remission in such cases were despised, the guilt would remain entirely unforgiven.

7. God remits guilt to no one whom He does not, at the same time, humble in all things and bring into subjection to His vicar, the priest.

8. The penitential canons are imposed only on the living, and, according to them, nothing should be imposed on the dying.

9. Therefore the Holy Spirit in the pope is kind to us, because in his decrees he always makes exception of the article of death and of necessity.

10. Ignorant and wicked are the doings of those priests who, in the case of the dying, reserve canonical penances for purgatory.

11. This changing of the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory is quite evidently one of the tares that were sown while the bishops slept.

12. In former times the canonical penalties were imposed not after, but before absolution, as tests of true contrition.

13. The dying are freed by death from all penalties; they are already dead to canonical rules, and have a right to be released from them.

14. The imperfect health [of soul], that is to say, the imperfect love, of the dying brings with it, of necessity, great fear; and the smaller the love, the greater is the fear.

15. This fear and horror is sufficient of itself alone (to say nothing of other things) to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror of despair.

16. Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ as do despair, almost-despair, and the assurance of safety.

17. With souls in purgatory it seems necessary that horror should grow less and love increase.

18. It seems unproved, either by reason or Scripture, that they are outside the state of merit, that is to say, of increasing love.

19. Again, it seems unproved that they, or at least that all of them, are certain or assured of their own blessedness, though we may be quite certain of it.

20. Therefore by "full remission of all penalties" the pope means not actually "of all," but only of those imposed by himself.

21. Therefore those preachers of indulgences are in error, who say that by the pope's indulgences a man is freed from every penalty, and saved;

22. Whereas he remits to souls in purgatory no penalty which, according to the canons, they would have had to pay in this life.

23. If it is at all possible to grant to any one the remission of all penalties whatsoever, it is certain that this remission can be granted only to the most perfect, that is, to the very fewest.

24. It must needs be, therefore, that the greater part of the people are deceived by that indiscriminate and highsounding promise of release from penalty.

25. The power which the pope has, in a general way, over purgatory, is just like the power which any bishop or curate has, in a special way, within his own diocese or parish.

26. The pope does well when he grants remission to souls [in purgatory], not by the power of the keys (which he does not possess), but by way of intercession.

27. They preach man who say that so soon as the penny jingles into the money-box, the soul flies out [of purgatory].

28. It is certain that when the penny jingles into the money-box, gain and avarice can be increased, but the result of the intercession of the Church is in the power of God alone.

29. Who knows whether all the souls in purgatory wish to be bought out of it, as in the legend of Sts. Severinus and Paschal.

30. No one is sure that his own contrition is sincere; much less that he has attained full remission.

31. Rare as is the man that is truly penitent, so rare is also the man who truly buys indulgences, i.e., such men are most rare.

32. They will be condemned eternally, together with their teachers, who believe themselves sure of their salvation because they have letters of pardon.

33. Men must be on their guard against those who say that the pope's pardons are that inestimable gift of God by which man is reconciled to Him;

34. For these "graces of pardon" concern only the penalties of sacramental satisfaction, and these are appointed by man.

35. They preach no Christian doctrine who teach that contrition is not necessary in those who intend to buy souls out of purgatory or to buy confessionalia.

36. Every truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without letters of pardon.

37. Every true Christian, whether living or dead, has part in all the blessings of Christ and the Church; and this is granted him by God, even without letters of pardon.

38. Nevertheless, the remission and participation [in the blessings of the Church] which are granted by the pope are in no way to be despised, for they are, as I have said, the declaration of divine remission.

39. It is most difficult, even for the very keenest theologians, at one and the same time to commend to the people the abundance of pardons and [the need of] true contrition.

40. True contrition seeks and loves penalties, but liberal pardons only relax penalties and cause them to be hated, or at least, furnish an occasion [for hating them].

41. Apostolic pardons are to be preached with caution, lest the people may falsely think them preferable to other good works of love.

42. Christians are to be taught that the pope does not intend the buying of pardons to be compared in any way to works of mercy.

43. Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the needy does a better work than buying pardons;

44. Because love grows by works of love, and man becomes better; but by pardons man does not grow better, only more free from penalty.

45. 45. Christians are to be taught that he who sees a man in need, and passes him by, and gives [his money] for pardons, purchases not the indulgences of the pope, but the indignation of God.

46. Christians are to be taught that unless they have more than they need, they are bound to keep back what is necessary for their own families, and by no means to squander it on pardons.

47. Christians are to be taught that the buying of pardons is a matter of free will, and not of commandment.

48. Christians are to be taught that the pope, in granting pardons, needs, and therefore desires, their devout prayer for him more than the money they bring.

49. Christians are to be taught that the pope's pardons are useful, if they do not put their trust in them; but altogether harmful, if through them they lose their fear of God.

50. Christians are to be taught that if the pope knew the exactions of the pardon-preachers, he would rather that St. Peter's church should go to ashes, than that it should be built up with the skin, flesh and bones of his sheep.

51. Christians are to be taught that it would be the pope's wish, as it is his duty, to give of his own money to very many of those from whom certain hawkers of pardons cajole money, even though the church of St. Peter might have to be sold.

52. The assurance of salvation by letters of pardon is vain, even though the commissary, nay, even though the pope himself, were to stake his soul upon it.

53. They are enemies of Christ and of the pope, who bid the Word of God be altogether silent in some Churches, in order that pardons may be preached in others.

54. Injury is done the Word of God when, in the same sermon, an equal or a longer time is spent on pardons than on this Word.

55. It must be the intention of the pope that if pardons, which are a very small thing, are celebrated with one bell, with single processions and ceremonies, then the Gospel, which is the very greatest thing, should be preached with a hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies.

56. The "treasures of the Church," out of which the pope. grants indulgences, are not sufficiently named or known among the people of Christ.

57. That they are not temporal treasures is certainly evident, for many of the vendors do not pour out such treasures so easily, but only gather them.

58. Nor are they the merits of Christ and the Saints, for even without the pope, these always work grace for the inner man, and the cross, death, and hell for the outward man.

59. St. Lawrence said that the treasures of the Church were the Church's poor, but he spoke according to the usage of the word in his own time.

60. Without rashness we say that the keys of the Church, given by Christ's merit, are that treasure;

61. For it is clear that for the remission of penalties and of reserved cases, the power of the pope is of itself sufficient.

62. The true treasure of the Church is the Most Holy Gospel of the glory and the grace of God.

63. But this treasure is naturally most odious, for it makes the first to be last.

64. On the other hand, the treasure of indulgences is naturally most acceptable, for it makes the last to be first.

65. Therefore the treasures of the Gospel are nets with which they formerly were wont to fish for men of riches.

66. The treasures of the indulgences are nets with which they now fish for the riches of men.

67. The indulgences which the preachers cry as the "greatest graces" are known to be truly such, in so far as they promote gain.

68. Yet they are in truth the very smallest graces compared with the grace of God and the piety of the Cross.

69. Bishops and curates are bound to admit the commissaries of apostolic pardons, with all reverence.

70. But still more are they bound to strain all their eyes and attend with all their ears, lest these men preach their own dreams instead of the commission of the pope.

71. He who speaks against the truth of apostolic pardons, let him be anathema and accursed!

72. But he who guards against the lust and license of the pardon-preachers, let him be blessed!

73. The pope justly thunders against those who, by any art, contrive the injury of the traffic in pardons.

74. But much more does he intend to thunder against those who use the pretext of pardons to contrive the injury of holy love and truth.

75. To think the papal pardons so great that they could absolve a man even if he had committed an impossible sin and violated the Mother of God -- this is madness.

76. We say, on the contrary, that the papal pardons are not able to remove the very least of venial sins, so far as its guilt is concerned.

77. It is said that even St. Peter, if he were now Pope, could not bestow greater graces; this is blasphemy against St. Peter and against the pope.

78. We say, on the contrary, that even the present pope, and any pope at all, has greater graces at his disposal; to wit, the Gospel, powers, gifts of healing, etc., as it is written in I. Corinthians xii.

79. To say that the cross, emblazoned with the papal arms, which is set up [by the preachers of indulgences], is of equal worth with the Cross of Christ, is blasphemy.

80. The bishops, curates and theologians who allow such talk to be spread among the people, will have an account to render.

81. This unbridled preaching of pardons makes it no easy matter, even for learned men, to rescue the reverence due to the pope from slander, or even from the shrewd questionings of the laity.

82. To wit: -- "Why does not the pope empty purgatory, for the sake of holy love and of the dire need of the souls that are there, if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a Church? The former reasons would be most just; the latter is most trivial."

83. Again: -- "Why are mortuary and anniversary masses for the dead continued, and why does he not return or permit the withdrawal of the endowments founded on their behalf, since it is wrong to pray for the redeemed?"

84. Again: -- "What is this new piety of God and the pope, that for money they allow a man who is impious and their enemy to buy out of purgatory the pious soul of a friend of God, and do not rather, because of that pious and beloved soul's own need, free it for pure love's sake?"

85. Again: -- "Why are the penitential canons long since in actual fact and through disuse abrogated and dead, now satisfied by the granting of indulgences, as though they were still alive and in force?"

86. Again: -- "Why does not the pope, whose wealth is to-day greater than the riches of the richest, build just this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of poor believers?"

87. Again: -- "What is it that the pope remits, and what participation does he grant to those who, by perfect contrition, have a right to full remission and participation?"

88. Again: -- "What greater blessing could come to the Church than if the pope were to do a hundred times a day what he now does once, and bestow on every believer these remissions and participations?"

89. "Since the pope, by his pardons, seeks the salvation of souls rather than money, why does he suspend the indulgences and pardons granted heretofore, since these have equal efficacy?"

90. To repress these arguments and scruples of the laity by force alone, and not to resolve them by giving reasons, is to expose the Church and the pope to the ridicule of their enemies, and to make Christians unhappy.

91. If, therefore, pardons were preached according to the spirit and mind of the pope, all these doubts would be readily resolved; nay, they would not exist.

92. Away, then, with all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Peace, peace," and there is no peace!

93. Blessed be all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Cross, cross," and there is no cross!

94. Christians are to be exhorted that they be diligent in following Christ, their Head, through penalties, deaths, and hell;

95. And thus be confident of entering into heaven rather through many tribulations, than through the assurance of peace.

I thought I heard hammering a while back ... :D

I thought I heard hammering a while back ... :D

*hides the hammer*

Hooray! http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/monk.gif

(I just finished watching a documentary about Luther.)

But no reformation was achieved. Only a split.
.

Awwwww, do I have to read all of them? :D

But no reformation was achieved. Only a split.
.

How were the protestant/ former catholic countries not reformed?

But no reformation was achieved. Only a split.
.

Yes, quite unfortunate the Errrors of Rome couldn't be fixed. :p ;)

How were the protestant/ former catholic countries not reformed?

The nations were, but the Roman Church wasn't.

The nations were, but the Roman Church wasn't.

Thats what the thread is about though, isn't it?

The Reformation? Oh, puh-lease. :rolleyes:

I used to have the day off, but then I moved and now it's the day after that's off.. damn the Catholics for screwing up my cozy holiday schedule, but, as one of my friends pointed out, this is a more convenient schedule if you plan on big halloween parties.

Luther was a bastard.

I used to have the day off, but then I moved and now it's the day after that's off.. damn the Catholics for screwing up my cozy holiday schedule, but, as one of my friends pointed out, this is a more convenient schedule if you plan on big halloween parties.

You actually celebrate the reformation? That's so demented... and yet, so German.

Luthur was a bastard son of a whore and did a whole lot to foul up the enlightenment.

He is the Wahhab of the western world.

Happy Reformation Day to all!

Will there be gifts and booze?

Otherwise .... bleh.

You actually celebrate the reformation? That's so demented... and yet, so German.

'We' as in the Protestant Länder do, yes. Well, all state affiliated 'businesses' do (school, e.g.).

Come on, it's not like our history is brimming with at least somewhat positively, oh, we'd settle for halfway neutrally connotated major historical Germans so.. beggars can't be chosers, I guess.

You actually celebrate the reformation? That's so demented... and yet, so German.
Hey now. Reformationstag is a serious holiday! (Or used to be, at least.)

(Good to have you back here, Fass!)

At least it's a religious holiday not stolen from a previous faith to corrupt it's followers.

'We' as in the Protestant Länder do, yes. Well, all state affiliated 'businesses' do (school, e.g.).

Come on, it's not like our history is brimming with at least somewhat positively, oh, we'd settle for halfway neutrally connotated major historical Germans so.. beggars can't be chosers, I guess.

You could have celebrated Hansa day. The Reformation was such a drag, really, even if did rid us of Catholicism, for which one would be very happy about, were it not for the fact that it replaced it with Protestantism... then again, protestantism is still preferable over Catholicism.

Hey now. Reformationstag is a serious holiday! (Or used to be, at least.)


You know how I keep confusing it with Martinstag.. I actually pondered how sad I was I didn't go Martinssingen this year today when I suddenly realized I still got some time to organize something.. beats Halloween and trick-or-treating by miles.

Hey now. Reformationstag is a serious holiday! (Or used to be, at least.)

No doubt. Lutheranism is very no frills that way.

(Good to have you back here, Fass!)

Danke schön, Liebchen.

You could have celebrated Hansa day. The Reformation was such a drag, really, even if did rid us of Catholicism, for which one would be very happy about, were it not for the fact that it replaced it with Protestantism... then again, protestantism is still preferable over Catholicism.

You forgot to mention how Luther supposedly translated the bible into German, therewith making it available/understandable for a wider public audience- today, in the bible-thumpers' age, don't we all agree that had been a mistake?

Ah, yes, there's some dim recollection about the Hansa-- uh, trade union with lots of other folks? Anything/-one in particular we're supposed to worship?

You forgot to mention how Luther supposedly translated the bible into German, therewith making it available/understandable for a wider public audience- today, in the bible-thumpers' age, don't we all agree that had been a mistake?

The more people that can read the Bible, the more they can see what a crappy book it is. So it's still good.

Ah, yes, there's some dim recollection about the Hansa-- uh, trade union with lots of other folks? Anything/-one in particular we're supposed to worship?

You could celebrate the deep impact it had on us. It's the due to the Hansa we aren't speaking something close to Icelandic.

The more people that can read the Bible, the more they can see what a crappy book it is. So it's still good.

I wish that plan of yours were working. Maybe I'll live to see it.

You could celebrate the deep impact it had on us. It's the due to the Hansa we aren't speaking something close to Icelandic.
I wouldn't know how (un)sexy Icelandic is, so..

I wish that plan of yours were working. Maybe I'll live to see it.

Umm, hello, Stockholm? I can't believe you missed the greatest thing with this country - secularism.

I wouldn't know how (un)sexy Icelandic is, so..

Just have a listen, (mms://apollo.vortex.is/UtvarpSaga) and see your libido perish.

The more people that can read the Bible, the more they can see what a crappy book it is. So it's still good.

At least when it was in Latin and Greek and other languages the people who read it were educated enough to know what was metaphor or poetry and what wasn't.

At least when it was in Latin and Greek and other languages the people who read it were educated enough to know what was metaphor or poetry and what wasn't.

That's why education is so important today as well. It really is the antidote to religion.

But no reformation was achieved. Only a split.
.

Why do you put that extra period there?

At least when it was in Latin and Greek and other languages the people who read it were educated enough to know what was metaphor or poetry and what wasn't.

No, they really wern't.

Umm, hello, Stockholm? I can't believe you missed the greatest thing with this country - secularism.
I just might have. But, umm, even if I hadn't- bad news abound everywhere else to blacken that out. Read in the newspaper today that one of our Länders' Kultusminsterin (Secretary for Education and Culture, if you will) suggested teaching creationism alongside evolution..yo know the drill. Here!

Just have a listen, (mms://apollo.vortex.is/UtvarpSaga) and see your libido perish.
God, that's drop-dead sexy. Absolutely thrilling. I'm in awe. I'm in love. I'll have to marry Cash after all. Oh, oh. Oh.

I just might have. But, umm, even if I hadn't- bad news abound everywhere else to blacken that out. Read in the newspaper today that one of our Länders' Kultusminsterin (Secretary for Education and Culture, if you will) suggested teaching creationism alongside evolution..yo know the drill. Here!

See, no one will take her seriously and she will be laughed at. Germany isn't, *shudder*, Poland or the US.

God, that's drop-dead sexy. Absolutely thrilling. I'm in awe. I'm in love. I'll have to marry Cash after all. Oh, oh. Oh.

While that would seem to support my theory that everything which is libido poison is a turn on for lesbians, I sense just a tinge of spite in that.

Will there be gifts and booze?

Otherwise .... bleh.

Yes. While, for the most part, I subscribe to the majority of the doctrines of Calvinism, I don't recall the no booze law ever being one of the actual doctrines.

*hands out vodka*

You actually celebrate the reformation? That's so demented... and yet, so German.

I celebrate the Reformation. And yes, feel free to call me demented, your hatred for Christianity is well-hyped, therefore quite meaningless.

I celebrate the Reformation. And yes, feel free to call me demented, your hatred for Christianity is well-hyped, therefore quite meaningless.

Not as meaningless as religion, though. :)

Ugh, especially Calvinism...

Here is a very good article on the Reformation:

Preparations for the Restoration and the Second Coming:
“My Hand Shall Be over Thee” (http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2005.htm/ensign%20november%202005.htm/preparations%20for%20the%20restoration%20and%20the%20second%20coming%20%20my%20hand%20shall%20be%20o ver%20thee.htm?fn=document-frameset.htm$f=templates$3.0)

The article explains the need for the reformation in order to bring about the restoration of all things that was foretold in the New Testament, that was to take place in the last days.

Some of you will not agree with me on those points, but the article does give some very good information about the reformers, their efforts to restore the true points of Christ's doctrine, and to get the scriptures into the hands of the common man.

For those of you who's computers don't like hyperlinks, I've cut and pasted the article below, with some of my favorite portions rendered in bold:

This year we are commemorating the 200th anniversary of the birth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. To the world we testify that he was the prophet of God foreordained to bring about the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This he did under the direction of our Savior, who said to an earlier prophet, “My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee.”

I acknowledge the Lord’s hand in the Restoration of the gospel. Through the inspired sacrifices of God’s children through the ages, the foundation of the Restoration was laid, and the world is preparing for the Second Coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

His gospel was first established on the earth beginning with Adam and has been taught in every dispensation through such prophets as Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and others. Each of these prophets foretold the coming of Jesus Christ to atone for the sins of the world. Those prophecies have been fulfilled. The Savior did establish His Church. He called His Apostles and established His priesthood. Most importantly, He laid down His life and took it up that all will rise again, thus carrying out the atoning sacrifice. But that was not the end.

After the Savior’s Resurrection, He commissioned His Apostles to lead the Church and administer gospel ordinances. Faithful to this charge, they were persecuted, and some were eventually martyred. As a result, the Lord’s priesthood authority was no longer on earth, and the world fell into spiritual darkness. In the centuries that followed, God’s children had the Light of Christ, could pray, and could feel the influence of the Holy Ghost. But the fulness of the gospel had been lost. There was no one left on earth with the power and authority to lead the Church or perform sacred ordinances such as baptism, conferral of the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the saving ordinances of the temple. Almost everyone was denied access to the scriptures, and most people were illiterate.

Making the scriptures available and helping God’s children learn to read them was the first step to the Restoration of the gospel. Originally the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, languages unknown to common people throughout Europe. Then, about 400 years after the Savior’s death, the Bible was translated by Jerome into Latin. But still the scriptures were not widely available. Copies had to be written by hand, usually by monks, each taking years to complete.

Then, through the influence of the Holy Ghost, an interest in learning began to grow in the hearts of people. This Renaissance or “rebirth” spread throughout Europe. In the late 1300s, a priest named John Wycliffe initiated a translation of the Bible from Latin into English. Because English was then an emerging, unrefined language, church leaders deemed it unsuitable to convey God’s word. Some leaders were certain that if people could read and interpret the Bible for themselves, its doctrine would be corrupted; others feared that people with independent access to the scriptures would not need the church and would cease to support it financially. Consequently, Wycliffe was denounced as a heretic and treated accordingly. After he died and was buried, his bones were dug up and burned. But God’s work could not be stopped.

While some were inspired to translate the Bible, others were inspired to prepare the means to publish it. By 1455 Johannes Gutenberg had invented a press with movable type, and the Bible was one of the first books he printed. For the first time it was possible to print multiple copies of the scriptures and at a cost many could afford.

Meanwhile, the inspiration of God also rested upon explorers. In 1492 Christopher Columbus set out to find a new path to the Far East. Columbus was led by the hand of God in his journey. He said, “God gave me the faith, and afterwards the courage.”

These inventions and discoveries set the stage for further contributions. In the early 1500s young William Tyndale enrolled at Oxford University. There he studied the work of the Bible scholar Erasmus, who believed that the scriptures are “the food of [a man’s] soul; and … must permeate the very depths of [his] heart and mind.” Through his studies, Tyndale developed a love for God’s word and a desire that all God’s children be able to feast on it for themselves.

At about this time, a German priest and professor named Martin Luther identified 95 points of error in the church of his day, which he boldly sent in a letter to his superiors. In Switzerland, Huldrych Zwingli printed 67 articles of reform. John Calvin in Switzerland, John Knox in Scotland, and many others assisted in this effort. A reformation had begun.

Meanwhile, William Tyndale had become a trained priest and was fluent in eight languages. He believed a direct translation from Greek and Hebrew into English would be more accurate and readable than Wycliffe’s translation from Latin. So Tyndale, enlightened by the Spirit of God, translated the New Testament and a portion of the Old Testament. His friends warned him that he would be killed for doing so, but he was undaunted. Once, while disputing with a learned man, he said, “If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth the plough shall know more of the scripture than thou dost.”

Eventually Tyndale, like others, was killed for his efforts—strangled and burned at the stake near Brussels. But the belief for which he gave his life was not lost. Millions have come to experience for themselves what Tyndale taught throughout his life: “The nature of God’s word is, that whosoever read it, … it will begin immediately to make him every day better and better, till he be grown into a perfect man.”

Turbulent political times brought change. Because of a disagreement with the church in Rome, King Henry VIII declared himself the head of the church in England and required that copies of the English Bible be placed in every parish church. Hungry for the gospel, people flocked to these churches, reading the scriptures to one another until their voices gave out. The Bible was also used as a primer to teach reading. Though martyrdoms continued across Europe, the dark night of ignorance was coming to an end. Declared one preacher before being burned, “We shall this day light such a candle, by God’s Grace, in England, as I trust shall never be put out.”

We express gratitude to all who lived in England and throughout Europe who helped kindle that light. By God’s grace, the light grew brighter. Aware of the divisions within his own country, English King James I agreed to a new official version of the Bible. It has been estimated that over 80 percent of William Tyndale’s translations of the New Testament and a good portion of the Old Testament (the Pentateuch, or Genesis through Deuteronomy, and Joshua through Chronicles) were retained in the King James Version. In time, that version would find its way to a new land and be read by a 14-year-old plowboy named Joseph Smith. Is it any wonder that the King James Version is the approved English Bible of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints today?

Religious persecution in England continued under James’s son Charles, and many were prompted to seek freedom in new lands. Among them were the Pilgrims, who landed in the Americas in 1620, the very part of the world Columbus had explored over 100 years earlier. Other colonists soon followed, including those like Roger Williams, founder and later governor of Rhode Island, who continued to search for Christ’s true Church. Williams said that there was no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any church ordinance, nor could there be until new Apostles were sent by the great Head of the church, for whose coming he was seeking.

Over a century later, such religious feeling guided founders of a new nation on the American continent. Under God’s hand, they secured religious freedom for every citizen with an inspired Bill of Rights. Fourteen years later, on December 23, 1805, the Prophet Joseph Smith was born. The preparation was nearing its completion for the Restoration.

As a young man, Joseph “was called up to serious reflection” on the subject of religion. Because he was born in a land of religious freedom, he could question which of all the churches was right. And because the Bible had been translated into English, he could seek an answer from the word of God. He read in the book of James, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God,” and he did as directed. In answer to Joseph’s prayer, God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to him. This humble farm boy was the prophet chosen by God to restore the ancient Church of Jesus Christ and His priesthood in these latter days. This restoration was to be the last, the dispensation of the fulness of times, restoring all the priesthood blessings which man could possess on earth. With this divine commission, his work was not to reform nor was it to protest what was already on the earth. It was to restore what had been on earth and had been lost.

The Restoration, begun with the First Vision in 1820, continued with the coming forth of the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ. On September 21, 1823, Joseph Smith was visited by the angel Moroni, who taught him of an ancient record containing “the fulness of the everlasting gospel … preparatory to the second coming of the Messiah.” Recorded on plates of gold, the Book of Mormon gives an account of Christ’s ministry in the Western Hemisphere, just as the Bible records His life and ministry in the Holy Land. Joseph received the gold plates four years later and, in December of 1827, began to translate the Book of Mormon.

While translating, Joseph Smith and his scribe Oliver Cowdery read about baptism. Their desire to receive this blessing for themselves prompted the restoration of the Aaronic Priesthood on May 15, 1829, under the hands of John the Baptist.

There followed the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood, which was bestowed on Joseph and Oliver by the Apostles Peter, James, and John, who held the keys. After centuries of spiritual darkness, the power and authority to act in God’s name, to perform sacred ordinances, and to lead His Church were once again upon the earth.

The first printed copies of the Book of Mormon were published on March 26, 1830. A few days later, on April 6, Christ’s true Church in these latter days was once again organized, at the home of Peter Whitmer Sr. in Fayette, New York. Describing the effects of these events upon the world, Elder Parley P. Pratt wrote:

The morning breaks, the shadows flee;
Lo, Zion’s standard is unfurled!
The dawning of a brighter day, …
Majestic rises on the world.

The long night was finally over, and revelation streamed forth, resulting in additional scripture. The Doctrine and Covenants was accepted by the Church on August 17, 1835. The Pearl of Great Price translation of the book of Abraham also began in that year.

Further authority to act in the name of the Lord soon followed. The Kirtland Temple was dedicated on March 27, 1836. In that temple, the Savior appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, followed by the appearances of Moses, Elias, and Elijah, who gave additional priesthood keys to the Prophet.

This gospel light would never again be taken from the earth. In 1844 Joseph Smith conferred all the keys of the priesthood upon Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and their fellow Apostles. The Prophet said: “I have lived until I have seen this burden, which has rested on my shoulders, rolled on to the shoulders of other men; … the keys of the kingdom are planted on the earth to be taken away no more for ever. … No matter what becomes of me.” Sadly, three months later, on June 27, Joseph Smith the Prophet and his brother Hyrum were martyred at Carthage, Illinois.

Elder John Taylor, who was with the Prophet when he was martyred, testified of him, “Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.”

I testify that the work of the Prophet Joseph Smith is the Savior’s work. In the Lord’s service the path is not always easy. It often requires sacrifices, and we will likely experience adversity. But in serving Him, we discover that His hand is truly over us. So it was for Wycliffe, Tyndale, and thousands of others who prepared the way for the Restoration. So it was for the Prophet Joseph Smith and all who helped usher in the restored gospel. So it is and will be for us.

The Lord expects us to be as faithful, as devoted, as courageous as those who went before us. They were called to give their lives for the gospel. We are called to live our lives for the same purpose. In these last days we have special reason to do so.

Before that sacred night in Bethlehem, the events of history and the words of the prophets of all dispensations prepared the way for the first coming of the Lord and His Atonement. Similarly, history and prophecy laid the groundwork for the Restoration of the gospel through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Do we have eyes to see that the events and prophecies of our time are preparing us for the Savior’s Second Coming?

I bear special witness that our Savior Jesus Christ lives. I testify that His hand has been over the work of the Restoration from before the foundation of this world and will continue until His Second Coming.

That each of us will prepare ourselves to greet Him is my humble prayer. In His holy name, even Jesus Christ, amen.

I would highly recommend reading the entire article, even if you have no respect for 'those Mormons and their prophet Joseph Smith', most people would find it (the article) instructive, even if only for informative/historical reasons.

See, no one will take her seriously and she will be laughed at. Germany isn't, *shudder*, Poland or the US.
Well, this *did* happen only after she was forced to make a stetement because there's an investigation in her Land about two schools having taught creationism, and one of the teachers having done so by using a "school book" in his biology lessons he wrote himself that's questioning evolution. Oh, that, and the number of creationists in Germany is at an estimated 1.3 millions. Beware.

P.S. This is an extract from another article from the same newspaper (rather mainstream): "[..]our mental/phsychological life is the product of our physical brain, which has not been created by a godly creator, but through a blind process of natural selection[...]with the exception of a small minority of philosophers and scinetists, nobody really takes this view seriously. It is immoral. It goes against the core beliefs of very religion and is in contrast to common sense. [...]

I'm scared sometimes.


While that would seem to support my theory that everything which is libido poison is a turn on for lesbians, I sense just a tinge of spite in that.

Come again? *is still listening to it via headphones, swooning*

Yes. While, for the most part, I subscribe to the majority of the doctrines of Calvinism, I don't recall the no booze law ever being one of the actual doctrines.

*hands out vodka*

*GASP* You're gonna burn!

Gimme that. Oh, wait I'm 18 and have to respect the civil establishment. Crap.

Well, this *did* happen only after she was forced to make a stetement because there's an investigation in her Land about two schools having taught creationism, and one of the teachers having done so by using a "school book" in his biology lessons he wrote himself that's questioning evolution. Oh, that, and the number of creationists in Germany is at an estimated 1.3 millions. Beware.

P.S. This is an extract from another article from the same newspaper (rather mainstream): "[..]our mental/phsychological life is the product of our physical brain, which has not been created by a godly creator, but through a blind process of natural selection[...]with the exception of a small minority of philosophers and scinetists, nobody really takes this view seriously. It is immoral. It goes against the core beliefs of very religion and is in contrast to common sense. [...]

I'm scared sometimes.

Don't be. 1,3 million just means about 1.5% of you are stupid. This is where marginalisation and ridicule comes in.

Come again? *is still listening to it via headphones, swooning*

Swooning? This should teach you. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2uGiKZSqwU)

Don't be. 1,3 million just means about 1.5% of you are stupid. This is where marginalisation and ridicule comes in.
Again, I hope your theories are right. But I fear not, as they tend to.

Swooning? This should teach you. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2uGiKZSqwU)
Cute, that one. But (makes sure her feminist flatmate ain't listening) I think women shouldn't talk - at least not on Icelandic - it seems to be a language made for the male voice range. *resumes being enchanted by the guys you linked to first*

Again, I hope your theories are right. But I fear not, as they tend to.

You question my theories? Oh, how much lip you've gained over the non-skypey period.

Cute, that one. But (makes sure her feminist flatmate ain't listening) I think women shouldn't talk - at least not on Icelandic - it seems to be a language made for the male voice range. *resumes being enchanted by the guys you linked to first*

Don't play faux-heterosexual with me, please. It's disturbing.

You question my theories? Oh, how much lip you've gained over the non-skypey period.
It's okay; I bit it so much it's a wee bit swollen now, is all.

Don't play faux-heterosexual with me, please. It's disturbing.
I'm just, uh, linguo-sexual? Don't pretend this is the first time you noticed, now, please. You've been catering to it rather well, after all.

It's okay; I bit it so much it's a wee bit swollen now, is all.

Well, it's not called labium for nothing...

I'm just, uh, linguo-sexual? Don't pretend this is the first time you noticed, now, please. You've been catering to it rather well, after all.

I cater to none of your sexual whims. I'm a proper homo, as opposed to you.

Well, it's not called labium for nothing...

I cater to none of your sexual whims. I'm a proper homo, as opposed to you.

Good to hear you've lost neither that certain eewww edge nor your ultra-swift edit abilities.

How were the protestant/ former catholic countries not reformed?

erm, have you ever been to the cloisters museum in new york city? it's a collection of christian religious art. most of it ended up in new york because the protestant "reformation" involved crazed mobs burning down churches and slaughtering clergy and all those who had taken holy orders, thus freeing religious art from the rubble of the ancient holy places. it was more of a bloodbath than anything.

there were a few actual reformers - like the quakers, the menonites, and the bretheren, but the rest were mostly failures. luther did not say anything new - he just said it with enough disgruntled peasents within earshot. he wrote in german, not latin - even in the celebratory movie about his life Luther (one of my favorites - with Josephn Fiennes in the title role and Sir Peter Ustinov as his prince) there are scenes in which luther rides out to find churches full of the rotting bodies of his former congregation...and he acknowledges that because he chose to rouse the people and not address his concerns within the church, this was the result. as well intentioned as he may be (in that movie, he's my hero and a saint...in historical accounts in addition to a mediocre theologian and reformer, he's an obese oath-breaker who advocated slaughtering all jews and melting down their gold for *reformed* church use...great guy, eh?), his movement caused a great deal of bloodshed and torment - did *not* substantially alter life in europe and the americas in any terribly possitive way (except, perhaps, to take the practice of usury from an abhorred sin to the highest of virtues - business! how a "christian" can charge "interest" when christ blatently commands them to give twice what they're asked for without expecting any repayment is beyond me)...and he opened up the door to calvinism. calvinism is masturbatory, perverted, revolting, disgusting...I really can't think of a single redeeming quality.

total depravity - has one thing right...this idea itself is depraved. historically christianity never had this idea. in the eastern church, which has theologically changed the least since the patristic era, there is no doctrine of origional sin at all. that's not to say they don't think sin exists - but they would never call humanity "totally depraved" - people will rise only as far as their own conception of themselves. if this is as totally depraved, that's as high as they'll ever get.

unconditional election - salvation by lottery? this is just idiotic - though possibly the least arrogant of the 5 points

limited atonement - :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: ugh. I might also point out that the fuedal judicial concept of "Satisfaction" was never how the ancient church understood salvation. one might read "On The Incarnation" by Athanasius to get a view slightly less...totally depraved? the ancient church and the modern eastern church never viewed salvation as salvation from justice, or from wrath - justice is not the opposite of mercy in the eastern church. to the ancients, salvation was accomplished when christ joined the nature of god with the nature of man in hypostatic union. "God became man, that man might become God". X = X, and christ through his birth, life, death, and descending into hell joined *all* of the human experience with His divinity. the ancients sing of His tomb, calling the bridal chamber - the last and total union of the human experience with divinity. it's not salvation from judgement - it's salvation from disease, by grafting the withering branch of humanity with the perfect vine of divinity. "I am the vine, and you are the braches" - the concept of limited atonement and the older roman catholic error of Satisfaction make God out to be a harsh, petty judge - not the cosmic fount of life and the Lover of all mankind. the idea of salvation changed for the worse in fuedal western europe (perhaps satisfaction was a decent metaphor for uneducated serfs - but it was never meant to a theological assertation) - and the reformation did not *reform* this most grevious of errors - but rather made it even worse! every atheist I've ever met thinks christians conceive of god as judgemental and condemning. this is because of the errors of the medieval west - it is not ancient christian doctrine and it is not even logically coherent.

I don't really take issue with the last two points, "irresistable grace" and "perseverence of the saints" - though I would like to point out another of the great arrogances of the west. I could go down and ask my parents right now, "are you saved?" and they would reply "yes!" without thinking. salvation means total union with God through Christ. to answer yes to that question implies every bit of your nature has been redeemed - you are an extension of the very will of God. this is, of course, completely absurd...though I've known plenty of "christians" who certainly think they *are* an extention of God's will. who can blame them, if they think calvinism is the only way? implicit in this worldview is that you are either not really christian, or that you are a living saint. if I were to ask, however, an ancient christian - or a modern eastern christian, they would reply, as per Philippians 2:12, "I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling".


the reformation ultimately gave birth to modern secularism. and forgive me secularists - but this is not a good thing. it paved the way for all the abuses of capitalism - the debt and interest based economy we now have - and the absurd logical incoherence of many of its doctrines simply *Begged* for christianity to die to the rational world - which it practically has. everyone knows institutions of higher learning nowadays are almost diametrically opposed to religion. when the only religion they've seen is so called "reformed" christianity (and to a lesser extent, the old abuses of the roman catholic church), who can blame them? I see in most modern "reformed" churches no more of charity, no more of faith, no more of prayer, no more of reverence, much *less* of humility - and far more of gluttony. the reformation was a failure.

Just have a listen, (mms://apollo.vortex.is/UtvarpSaga) and see your libido perish.

I went to Iceland a year or so ago (check the fares to europe via there - they're cheaper than straight, PLUS you get to stop in Iceland and go to the Blue Lagoon) and enjoyed the random icelandic people we met. Listening to them chatter was just great. But sexiness is mostly in the specific voice. Even German can be sexy in the right voice.

(On the other hand, one of our single male friends who was with us made a good deal of effort at flirting with cute icelandic girls though. I think they enjoyed being able to use their wonderfully accented english on him, and he thought the accent was sexy.)

erm, have you ever been to the cloisters museum in new york city? it's a collection of christian religious art. most of it ended up in new york because the protestant "reformation" involved crazed mobs burning down churches and slaughtering clergy and all those who had taken holy orders, thus freeing religious art from the rubble of the ancient holy places. it was more of a bloodbath than anything.

there were a few actual reformers - like the quakers, the menonites, and the bretheren, but the rest were mostly failures. luther did not say anything new - he just said it with enough disgruntled peasents within earshot. he wrote in german, not latin - even in the celebratory movie about his life Luther (one of my favorites - with Josephn Fiennes in the title role and Sir Peter Ustinov as his prince) there are scenes in which luther rides out to find churches full of the rotting bodies of his former congregation...and he acknowledges that because he chose to rouse the people and not address his concerns within the church, this was the result. as well intentioned as he may be (in that movie, he's my hero and a saint...in historical accounts in addition to a mediocre theologian and reformer, he's an obese oath-breaker who advocated slaughtering all jews and melting down their gold for *reformed* church use...great guy, eh?), his movement caused a great deal of bloodshed and torment - did *not* substantially alter life in europe and the americas in any terribly possitive way (except, perhaps, to take the practice of usury from an abhorred sin to the highest of virtues - business! how a "christian" can charge "interest" when christ blatently commands them to give twice what they're asked for without expecting any repayment is beyond me)...and he opened up the door to calvinism. calvinism is masturbatory, perverted, revolting, disgusting...I really can't think of a single redeeming quality.

total depravity - has one thing right...this idea itself is depraved. historically christianity never had this idea. in the eastern church, which has theologically changed the least since the patristic era, there is no doctrine of origional sin at all. that's not to say they don't think sin exists - but they would never call humanity "totally depraved" - people will rise only as far as their own conception of themselves. if this is as totally depraved, that's as high as they'll ever get.

unconditional election - salvation by lottery? this is just idiotic - though possibly the least arrogant of the 5 points

limited atonement - :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: ugh. I might also point out that the fuedal judicial concept of "Satisfaction" was never how the ancient church understood salvation. one might read "On The Incarnation" by Athanasius to get a view slightly less...totally depraved? the ancient church and the modern eastern church never viewed salvation as salvation from justice, or from wrath - justice is not the opposite of mercy in the eastern church. to the ancients, salvation was accomplished when christ joined the nature of god with the nature of man in hypostatic union. "God became man, that man might become God". X = X, and christ through his birth, life, death, and descending into hell joined *all* of the human experience with His divinity. the ancients sing of His tomb, calling the bridal chamber - the last and total union of the human experience with divinity. it's not salvation from judgement - it's salvation from disease, by grafting the withering branch of humanity with the perfect vine of divinity. "I am the vine, and you are the braches" - the concept of limited atonement and the older roman catholic error of Satisfaction make God out to be a harsh, petty judge - not the cosmic fount of life and the Lover of all mankind. the idea of salvation changed for the worse in fuedal western europe (perhaps satisfaction was a decent metaphor for uneducated serfs - but it was never meant to a theological assertation) - and the reformation did not *reform* this most grevious of errors - but rather made it even worse! every atheist I've ever met thinks christians conceive of god as judgemental and condemning. this is because of the errors of the medieval west - it is not ancient christian doctrine and it is not even logically coherent.

I don't really take issue with the last two points, "irresistable grace" and "perseverence of the saints" - though I would like to point out another of the great arrogances of the west. I could go down and ask my parents right now, "are you saved?" and they would reply "yes!" without thinking. salvation means total union with God through Christ. to answer yes to that question implies every bit of your nature has been redeemed - you are an extension of the very will of God. this is, of course, completely absurd...though I've known plenty of "christians" who certainly think they *are* an extention of God's will. who can blame them, if they think calvinism is the only way? implicit in this worldview is that you are either not really christian, or that you are a living saint. if I were to ask, however, an ancient christian - or a modern eastern christian, they would reply, as per Philippians 2:12, "I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling".


the reformation ultimately gave birth to modern secularism. and forgive me secularists - but this is not a good thing. it paved the way for all the abuses of capitalism - the debt and interest based economy we now have - and the absurd logical incoherence of many of its doctrines simply *Begged* for christianity to die to the rational world - which it practically has. everyone knows institutions of higher learning nowadays are almost diametrically opposed to religion. when the only religion they've seen is so called "reformed" christianity (and to a lesser extent, the old abuses of the roman catholic church), who can blame them? I see in most modern "reformed" churches no more of charity, no more of faith, no more of prayer, no more of reverence, much *less* of humility - and far more of gluttony. the reformation was a failure.

You really misundrestand Calvinism.

You really misundrestand Calvinism.

how, exactly? I don't give a rat's ass what they *believe* so much as the effect that belief has on how they interact with the world. by that I mean, I wasn't trying to explain how a calvinist would self-identify - I was trying to charactorise the ideological tendencies that it leads to. I'm full aware that an individual calvinist would not describe it the same way I do - but the effect it would have on his/her political persuasions and self-perceptions is substantially different from what they actually would charactorise the belief-system as consisting of. when pious calvinists have ambivelent children, what secondary charactoristics of calvinist belief and praxis outlast the actual piety? I'm speaking less of calvinist worship than of calvinist *culture* - I have no right to speak of how another interacts with God - but after they leave church, what are the repurcussions of their theology? for example, there's a marked tendency in protestant countries to have higher production rates than catholic ones. it's these kinds of secondary charactoristics I'm interested in. you could worship a flying pink unicorn for all I care - I'm a pantheist, I don't think it's possible for worship to be misplaced, I'm only critical of the non-religious implications of calvinism...which are myriad. calvin said relatively little about economics - but that's still an area calvinism has had a massive impact on.

how, exactly? I don't give a rat's ass what they *believe* so much as the effect that belief has on how they interact with the world. by that I mean, I wasn't trying to explain how a calvinist would self-identify - I was trying to charactorise the ideological tendencies that it leads to. I'm full aware that an individual calvinist would not describe it the same way I do - but the effect it would have on his/her political persuasions and self-perceptions is substantially different from what they actually would charactorise the belief-system as consisting of. please, though, how have I misunderstood it?

Read the Westminster Confession of Faith. It is the most succinct (sp?) summary of Reformed theology (commonly called Calvinism, though Calvinism is actually a division within Reformed theology). The attitudes you are against are the perversion of Reformed theology.

Also, you speak about how wrong Reformed theology is, but then you only talk about what the EO says. Really, I don't care what they say. I look at Scripture and see that Augustine, Luther, and Calvin's explanation fits with the whole of Scripture the best.

If you would like me to explain Reformed theology fully, I will.

Read the Westminster Confession of Faith. It is the most succinct (sp?) summary of Reformed theology (commonly called Calvinism, though Calvinism is actually a division within Reformed theology). The attitudes you are against are the perversion of Reformed theology.

Also, you speak about how wrong Reformed theology is, but then you only talk about what the EO says. Really, I don't care what they say. I look at Scripture and see that Augustine, Luther, and Calvin's explanation fits with the whole of Scripture the best.

If you would like me to explain Reformed theology fully, I will.

the perversion of reformed theology is much more common than the origional. as I tried to communicate above (forgive me, I've edited it at least 5 times) I'm not interested in the actual devotional aspect. I am not a christian, I don't take the bible as any sort of authority. I would like to note, however, that the ancient church called the bible the "canon" (the Rule) for a reason. they did not call it the *foundation* of doctrine - the way they conceived of it was more like a "fence". I'm sorry, but millions of people look to the bible as the highest authority, and there are at least thousands of different doctrinal results. if the bible were really a self-explanatory base for the religion, the millions of well intentioned people who use it as such would produce worldviews that were at least compatable with eachother. as it is they've produced thousands upon thousands of bickering sects. I could exchange verses about tradition and quibble semantics with you, but you could find plenty of catholics who actually care to. if I converted you to the sort of christianity I'm advocating, I still wouldn't actually agree with you, so it's somewhat pointless. I'm not playing devil's advocate here, so much as making the case for the more logical of two fallacies, in my mind. orthodox culture has much healthier implications than protestant culture does - which is the main reason I defend it. a half-assed orthodox christian would come away with notions of semi-socialism, environmentalism, and a healer-God...a half assed calvinist more closely resembles an Orc from lord of the rings...

the pious, origional reformers (and I'm sorry, I do not think of john calvin with anything but revulsion, but for your sake I'll pretend he was everything you think he was) did not influence the world anywhere near as much as the sunday-christians, the people in church because everyone else was there, the children who were raised protestant but don't really care. they outnumber the pious 10 to 1, at very least, and that is the greatest legacy of the reformation - the great apostacy of the western world, and all the cultural tendencies within it. I judge a tree by its fruits - and when I look to the end result of protestantism, I see this country, this war, this american mindset. america is arguably the nation most influenced by protestantism in the world - and whatever people say on surveys, the result was secularism, apostacy, and the endemic greed and corruption of this nation.

I'm sorry, but when I see people perverting other belief-systems it's never half so horrible as what happens with calvinism. the qausi-secularisation of other christian groups results in harmless fluffy-bunny love-fests with no theological integrity...when that happens with calvinism we still have the "Elect" running around.

the perversion of reformed theology is much more common than the origional.

Sadly.

I would like to note, however, that the ancient church called the bible the "canon" (the Rule) for a reason. they did not call it the *foundation* of doctrine - the way they conceived of it was more like a "fence".

I can agree with that. It's the fence for our doctrine also. Or rather ought to be.

if the bible were really a self-explanatory base for the religion, the millions of well intentioned people who use it as such would produce worldviews that were at least compatable with eachother. as it is they've produced thousands upon thousands of bickering sects.

The problem is that we are all sinners (all totally depraved :) ) and do not consistently look to Scripture, the whole of Scripture, and nothing but the Scripture to inform our doctrine.

the pious, origional reformers (and I'm sorry, I do not think of john calvin with anything but revulsion, but for your sake I'll pretend he was everything you think he was) did not influence the world anywhere near as much as the sunday-christians, the people in church because everyone else was there, the children who were raised protestant but don't really care.

I agree about who influences the world more.

they outnumber the pious 10 to 1, at very least, and that is the greatest legacy of the reformation - the great apostacy of the western world, and all the cultural tendencies within it. I judge a tree by its fruits - and when I look to the end result of protestantism, I see this country, this war, this american mindset. america is arguably the nation most influenced by protestantism in the world - and whatever people say on surveys, the result was secularism, apostacy, and the endemic greed and corruption of this nation.

I would (and am) argue that such is not the result of Protestantism. It is the result of that group which you call the Sunday-Christians: those who don't care, but claim the label. The apostasy is the natural result of not caring for the Church. And secularism is what took its place: the oh-so most attractive god: Me. And we're back to total depravity. And the greed and corruption are the result of the "I will do what I want" attitude adopted by there apostate secularists. The problem isn't Protestantism or Reformed theology. The problem is the apostasy itself.

I'm sorry, but when I see people perverting other belief-systems it's never half so horrible as what happens with calvinism. the qausi-secularisation of other christian groups results in harmless fluffy-bunny love-fests with no theological integrity...when that happens with calvinism we still have the "Elect" running around.

Again, you misunderstand who the elect are if you think that is what Reformed Christians believe. And I would say the Reformed Christians (not Reformed churches, because they are infected with your Sunday-Christians) are the least affected by secularism because they fear total depravity so much.

The problem isn't Protestantism or Reformed theology. The problem is the apostasy itself.

an orthodox friend of mine was once talking with me about the common protestant criticism of the ancient liturgical churches (one I myself, back when I was a child and still parroting my parent's protestantism, which a goodly ammount of my own arrogance thrown in) is that it's just dead ritual. it's entirely likely that there are many catholics who are baptised at birth and live their whole lives without ever really caring passionately about the church. she responded, "well yeah...would you rather have those people sitting in church where they're at least theoretically able to come back to the faith at any time, or would you want to drive them out with pitchforks?" while there are scads of ambivelent "ethnic" catholic/orthodox, there are much, much fewer within the more zealous of the protestant churches. when I left my parents church, it was kicking and screaming as an arch-atheist...and most of the people I know who've left similar backgrounds have been extremely reactionary as well. had I been raised catholic, with their different attitude towards devotion and theology, I don't think it would have been nearly so dramatic. I did eventually ease back into religion, and even come to respect many kinds of christianity, but I think there's a case to be made that full-scale apostacy is rather more likely (and spectacular) in certain protestant denominations.

haha, weither you interpret this to mean the fold is purer, less lukewarm, (and thus a good thing) or not, I think it can be said that it is slightly more conducive to apostacy.

because they fear total depravity so much.

indeed. they certainly do that. I'm somewhat of the opinion that spiritual hypochondria is as much a catalyst as anything. they fear it, and their (zealotry, piety - take your pick) drives the lukewarm majority of the population away...and if the majority is like me, when they leave they throw the baby out with the bathwater, and in the end end up more secular than they would have been without church in the first place. their fear of it could be a catalyst towards it, I think.

I don't agree with you, really, but you've been kind enough. prior to my own apostacy, I was ever-rabid in my "defense" of the faith, so I certainly appriciate you being more reasonable about it. a gentle heart is far more convincing than the sharpest mind.

haha, weither you interpret this to mean the fold is purer, less lukewarm, (and thus a good thing) or not, I think it can be said that it is slightly more conducive to apostacy.

Actually, my fold is less pure than most right now, but that's a different story. I disagree with the relationship you've gleaned, but...

indeed. they certainly do that. I'm somewhat of the opinion that spiritual hypochondria is as much a catalyst as anything. they fear it, and their (zealotry, piety - take your pick) drives the lukewarm majority of the population away...and if the majority is like me, when they leave they throw the baby out with the bathwater, and in the end end up more secular than they would have been without church in the first place. their fear of it could be a catalyst towards it, I think.

You're too much of an anthropologist in my opinion. Or maybe I'm not enough of one.

I won't get into the theology behind this (unless you want), but I think that if piety scares them away, they will either be back, or they were never really part to begin with.

I don't agree with you, really, but you've been kind enough. I was ever-rabid in my "defense" of the faith, so I certainly appriciate you being more reasonable about it.

Confession: ask most people here. I can be quite rabid. I'm just tired. Though, I try always to be reasonable.

You're too much of an anthropologist in my opinion. Or maybe I'm not enough of one.

haha, I'm an anthropology major. or at least, I will be when I'm back in school.

haha, I'm an anthropology major. or at least, I will be when I'm back in school.

Hmmm...so, is it a good or bad thing that I could tell?

Hmmm...so, is it a good or bad thing that I could tell?

I was somewhat flattered. I think. social work/anthropology double major, I think. or social work/sociology. I haven't taken any classes in either one, so while I know I want to do the social work, I'm not sure which would give me the research training I'd want. I figure get a grant to go to some third world country and study some obscure religious ideology, and then make them less third-world while I'm at it. for all my bluster about asserting my ideological independance from my parents (christian non-profit workers) I'm going to end up doing more or less exactly the sort of thing they do.:rolleyes: if there's nothing else to be said for the reformed churches - they sure as hell know how to organise a non-profit. I'd put my money on campus crusade if it was between them and the government of a small country...(not that I'd ever actually donate to them...haha)

I was somewhat flattered. I think. social work/anthropology double major, I think. or social work/sociology. I haven't taken any classes in either one, so while I know I want to do the social work, I'm not sure which would give me the research training I'd want. I figure get a grant to go to some third world country and study some obscure religious ideology, and then make them less third-world while I'm at it. for all my bluster about asserting my ideological independance from my parents (christian non-profit workers) I'm going to end up doing more or less exactly the sort of thing they do.:rolleyes: if there's nothing else to be said for the reformed churches - they sure as hell know how to organise a non-profit. I'd put my money on campus crusade if it was between them and the government of a small country...(not that I'd ever actually donate to them...haha)

What year are you? Have you considered religious studies? I hate it, but it might fit what you're looking for.

What year are you? Have you considered religious studies? I hate it, but it might fit what you're looking for.

haha, a major in religious studies would almost be redundant for me. I spend the majority of my free time reading on the subject. I'm a freshman...went to this lunatic assylum of dominionist loons (I say that affectionately)

www.tkc.edu

and quit. since I was 4 or 5 I assumed I'd be going to seminary - but then I left the church and there's no such thing as a pantheist seminary...haha. I'd like to do something that lets me actually help people, though. I have a tendency to turn theology into intellectual masturbation that I don't think I need to encourage. I'm tempted to ignore the anthropology/sociology leaning entirely and go with linguistics instead - it would give me something to occupy my mind without being so critical all the time - and being binlingual/trilingual/polyglot never hurts your employability either. all my interests are so esoteric I'm trying to reign myself in to something at least marginally useful - I'm off in my own little world so much I'm trying to get formal training in something that will keep me grounded. it's tempting to force myself through an engineering degree or something, because I'm sure I'd manage to turn even that into some theoretical bit of flightyness.

haha, a major in religious studies would almost be redundant for me. I spend the majority of my free time reading on the subject. I'm a freshman...went to this lunatic assylum of dominionist loons (I say that affectionately)

www.tkc.edu

and quit. since I was 4 or 5 I assumed I'd be going to seminary - but then I left the church and there's no such thing as a pantheist seminary...haha. I'd like to do something that lets me actually help people, though. I have a tendency to turn theology into intellectual masturbation that I don't think I need to encourage. I'm tempted to ignore the anthropology/sociology leaning entirely and go with linguistics instead - it would give me something to occupy my mind without being so critical all the time - and being binlingual/trilingual/polyglot never hurts your employability either. all my interests are so esoteric I'm trying to reign myself in to something at least marginally useful - I'm off in my own little world so much I'm trying to get formal training in something that will keep me grounded. it's tempting to force myself through an engineering degree or something, because I'm sure I'd manage to turn even that into some theoretical bit of flightyness.

You knew what semenary was at age 5? That's impressive.

I'm a linguistics/German major. It's fun.

I've been considering seminary, but it's very limiting. I don't feel called to be a minister. An elder, maybe, but not a minister. And there's not much you can after seminary but become a minister.

Don't sell your soul to engineering unless you are sure that's really what you're supposed to do. Unless you have the mind for it, it will be purgatory (if such a place were to truly exist).

You knew what semenary was at age 5? That's impressive.

I'm a linguistics/German major. It's fun.

I've been considering seminary, but it's very limiting. I don't feel called to be a minister. An elder, maybe, but not a minister. And there's not much you can after seminary but become a minister.

Don't sell your soul to engineering unless you are sure that's really what you're supposed to do. Unless you have the mind for it, it will be purgatory (if such a place were to truly exist).

haha, I was precocious - fat lot of good it does me now. as far as engineering...something about environmentally sustainable archetecture perhaps. I don't know. I'm sure I'll end up studying the humanities. the nice thing about linguistics is that it allows me my pretention and academic interests, but I'd actually have to work at it. also if I ever wanted to work for a non-profit like the heifer project, or something else of international importance, I'd be able to do so. I loved the movie "the interpreter", though I've been interested in languages since I was little. I know some latin and even less spanish, and I *love* etymology...old english is the bomb.

haha, I was precocious - fat lot of good it does me now. as far as engineering...something about environmentally sustainable archetecture perhaps. I don't know. I'm sure I'll end up studying the humanities. the nice thing about linguistics is that it allows me my pretention and academic interests, but I'd actually have to work at it. also if I ever wanted to work for a non-profit like the heifer project, or something else of international importance, I'd be able to do so. I loved the movie "the interpreter", though I've been interested in languages since I was little. I know some latin and even less spanish, and I *love* etymology...old english is the bomb.

I know German, French, some Irish, and then random bits of Spanish, Latin, Welsh, Ancient Greek, and Finnish. Tolkien got me interested.

I know German, French, some Irish, and then random bits of Spanish, Latin, Welsh, Ancient Greek, and Finnish. Tolkien got me interested.

oooo welsh. I'm part welsh - my dad's parents still have welsh bibles and stuff lying around. I can't wrap my head around the pronunciation. I'm trying for ancient greek - I can read the script but that's about it. spanish is what I need to learn right now, I think. my eventual goal is to be fluent in spanish, russian, arabic, latin, and greek...though I have a bit of a fetish for dead languages...which is a very nearly useless thing to have. I lack dedication, but I'd started to teach myself both Nahuatl and Egyptian before. I'd love to learn Yoruba and Kreyol, too...but I think I need to get the basic ones down first.

oooo welsh. I'm part welsh - my dad's parents still have welsh bibles and stuff lying around. I can't wrap my head around the pronunciation. I'm trying for ancient greek - I can read the script but that's about it. spanish is what I need to learn right now, I think. my eventual goal is to be fluent in spanish, russian, arabic, latin, and greek...though I have a bit of a fetish for dead languages...which is a very nearly useless thing to have. I lack dedication, but I'd started to teach myself both Nahuatl and Egyptian before. I'd love to learn Yoruba and Kreyol, too...but I think I need to get the basic ones down first.

Oh, you have that fetish, too?

They should revert back to the Proper Faith.
Catholic PWNS.

They should revert back to the Proper Faith.
Catholic PWNS.

I'd rather worship Fass.

I'd rather worship Fass.

Oh, you just love kneeling before me.

Oh, you just love kneeling before me.

Yeah, but if I claim it as a tenet of my religion, when I get arrested for doing it in public, I can sue.

Oh, you have that fetish, too?

regretable, isn't it? something about being able to swear at a telemarketer in latin just makes me happy.

regretable, isn't it? something about being able to swear at a telemarketer in latin just makes me happy.

Regreatble? Not at all.

I was rather surprised to discover that Reformation Day actually counts as a holiday in some parts of Germany.
"We're not in Bavaria, why do we get All Saints' Day off? It's Reformation Day? They CELEBRATE that here?"

Regreatble? Not at all.

haha, I just wish I had an interest in something a bit more useful. being obsessed with spanish language would have gotten me a much better job...

haha, I just wish I had an interest in something a bit more useful. being obsessed with spanish language would have gotten me a much better job...

You could translate for the Vatican. :)

Really, if you love it enough, you can find something to do with it.

You could translate for the Vatican. :)

Really, if you love it enough, you can find something to do with it.

ahaha, I don't think the vatican would enjoy my translations. I've thought about archaeology as a career, but I'd feel bad desecrating tombs and temples and the like...