NationStates Jolt Archive

...apparently by not talking about it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10482634/

Think about it: We have black history events, we even (in the UK) have "black conferences", and every time an attack happens that may have been racist, colour is mentioned (whether white or black) and there is a mention that "the police are treating it as a racially aghravated attack".

What if we stop mentioning (unless necessary for identifying attackers/victims) the colours of people in crimes. Then instead of a "a hate crime on a certain colour person", it becomes "a horrible crime on a person". People start seeing all horrible crimes as just that - horrible crimes, without thinking about the colour of the persons involved.

Of course it won't happen overnight, and it almost certainly won't eradicate racism, but is it not a good place to start?

No. It merely amounts to ignoring a problem, not solving it.

Definetely a good place to start, another good idea would be to stop lumping people into groups based on race, religion, gender, or whatever.

No. It merely amounts to ignoring a problem, not solving it.

We're not ignoring the problem, we're just not separating one group from another by saying "Today a white man attacked a black man." or "This month is Black/Hispanic/Asian/Purple history month!"

We're not ignoring the problem, we're just not separating one group from another by saying "Today a white man attacked a black man."

The issue is hate crime.

If the white man attacked the black man because of the black man's race, then to ignore this is to ignore the problem. It is to pretend it doesn't exist.

That is the worst way to solve the problem, because the first step to a solution is to acknowledge that a problem exists.

or "This month is Black/Hispanic/Asian/Purple history month!"

Oh, so we're supposed to get rid of our attempted solutions, too? We should do nothing at all about the problem, lest we draw attention to it?

Yeah, that'll work. :rolleyes:

The issue is hate crime.

If the white man attacked the black man because of the black man's race, then to ignore this is to ignore the problem. It is to pretend it doesn't exist.

That is the worst way to solve the problem, because the first step to a solution is to acknowledge that a problem exists.

Who cares what the reason is, if a man hits another man, it's called assault, and should be treated as such. Tell me, what is the difference between one man killing another man, than a black man killing a white man?


Oh, so we're supposed to get rid of our attempted solutions, too? We should do nothing at all about the problem, lest we draw attention to it?

Yeah, that'll work. :rolleyes:

How is separating people into blacks, whites, gays, straight, Catholics, Muslim a solution?

South Park summed it up beautifully.

Who cares what the reason is, if a man hits another man, it's called assault, and should be treated as such.

Really. So you're telling me that if your aim is to reduce murders, the way to go about it is to ignore the reasons people commit murders?

Or, closer to the topic, if your aim is to solve a problem, the way to solve it is to treat manifestations of it as if they weren't manifestations of it?

Tell me, what is the difference between one man killing another man, than a black man killing a white man?

This is a straw man, as I pointed out in my last post.

How is separating people into blacks, whites, gays, straight, Catholics, Muslim a solution?

People already make these separations.

Either you pretend they don't, or you acknowledge that they do, and try to solve the problems caused by hatred across the separations.

Acknowledge that race is a viable measure of people, and you compound the problem: you elevate the importance of his race to higher than the importance of the man.

Some people believe that this difference is important. Ignoring their motives is ignoring the problem.

But perpetuating these differences ourselves is compounding the problem, not helping it.

race will be an issue for as long as people think it is important.

When people stop caring about race, there will be no racism.


I knew I liked his acting.

I had no idea I liked his politics as well.

South Park summed it up beautifully.

Savage Hipocracy comes to mind, but the rest is fuzzy.

Acknowledge that race is a viable measure of people, and you compound the problem: you elevate the importance of his race to higher than the importance of the man.

"Acknowledge that murder is a viable way to treat people, and you compound the problem: you elevate the importance of his murder victim status to higher than the importance of the man."

Some people believe that this difference is important. Ignoring their motives is ignoring the problem.

But perpetuating these differences ourselves is compounding the problem, not helping it.

"Perpetuating the idea of murder is compounding the problem, not helping it. We should wipe laws against murder from the lawbooks."

race will be an issue for as long as people think it is important.

When people stop caring about race, there will be no racism.

"Murder will be an issue for as long as people think it is important.

When people stop caring about murder, there will be no murders."

Definetely a good place to start, another good idea would be to stop lumping people into groups based on race, religion, gender, or whatever.

We must innovate and find newer, better ways to lump people together into groups - ways not based on race, religion, or gender.

Proposed new & better ways to lump people together:


Height

Shoe size

Hirsuteness

Preferred libation

Number of teeth

Definetely a good place to start, another good idea would be to stop lumping people into groups based on race, religion, gender, or whatever.

If you stop doing that, how will we calculate statistics and polls?

If you stop doing that, how will we calculate statistics and polls?

We won't.

We won't.

They are important. You can't just stop.

We won't.

Tell that to those terroristic Size 12 bastards.

Tell that to those terroristic Size 12 bastards.

Being a 12 and a half, I take offence to that.

Being a 12 and a half, I take offence to that.

12½, eh? And just for the sake of argument, would you describe yourself as:

a) Hairy

b) Moderately hairy

c) Somewhat hairy

d) Not hairy, or

e) Hairless?

Soheran, I see your point of view and respect it, but rather than concentrating one the colour of a particular person who has been attacked, would it not be better to NOT publicly announce that it was a racist attack or "a white man attacked a black" man AND re-educate the offender and provide better education to discourage other people from attacking people of a differnet colour, rather than just focusing on the colours of those involved, which so far doesn't seem to have done anything except create more hatred against white people ("bad white people, they're all racist") and more hatred against black people (evidenced by comments like "why they sayin' it's racist? bet they wouldn't say that if the victim was white") ?

you don't stop it .you fight against the "rascist",the one who said this one is minder ,you smash it down,then you invite him to eat and feast.

what?

if people want to be racist, its their problem.

what?
you smash him/her,after that you invite to vote

if people want to be racist, its their problem.

Not in Canada; if people want to be racist here, it's their attorney's problem.

Acknowledge that race is a viable measure of people, and you compound the problem: you elevate the importance of his race to higher than the importance of the man.

Some people believe that this difference is important. Ignoring their motives is ignoring the problem.

But perpetuating these differences ourselves is compounding the problem, not helping it.

race will be an issue for as long as people think it is important.

When people stop caring about race, there will be no racism.


I knew I liked his acting.

I had no idea I liked his politics as well.

Me either.

"I don't want a black history month. Black history is American history."

That sums it all up nicely.


"Acknowledge that murder is a viable way to treat people, and you compound the problem: you elevate the importance of his murder victim status to higher than the importance of the man."



"Perpetuating the idea of murder is compounding the problem, not helping it. We should wipe laws against murder from the lawbooks."



"Murder will be an issue for as long as people think it is important.

When people stop caring about murder, there will be no murders."

Murder exists. Race does not.

Definetely a good place to start, another good idea would be to stop lumping people into groups based on race, religion, gender, or whatever.

I'll agree on race. Ethnicity, religion, and gender will depend on the purposes and groupings.

If you stop doing that, how will we calculate statistics and polls?

If you're talking politics, why does it matter how imagined groupings vote?

Not in Canada; if people want to be racist here, it's their attorney's problem.

canada has not heard of free speech either?

...apparently by not talking about it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10482634/

Think about it: We have black history events, we even (in the UK) have "black conferences", and every time an attack happens that may have been racist, colour is mentioned (whether white or black) and there is a mention that "the police are treating it as a racially aghravated attack".

What if we stop mentioning (unless necessary for identifying attackers/victims) the colours of people in crimes. Then instead of a "a hate crime on a certain colour person", it becomes "a horrible crime on a person". People start seeing all horrible crimes as just that - horrible crimes, without thinking about the colour of the persons involved.

Of course it won't happen overnight, and it almost certainly won't eradicate racism, but is it not a good place to start?

There is only one effective way of stopping racism, sexism or any of the other "isms". Parents have to stop teaching it to their kids and have to start setting the proper example. All the legislation and pc crap in the world won't end it if the parents don't cooperate.

Murder exists. Race does not.

Racism does. Try to talk about racism without mentioning racial classifications, however unscientific, and see how far you get.

Racism does. Try to talk about racism without mentioning racial classifications, however unscientific, and see how far you get.

And that's the whole point. The more people stop harping about race, the faster the idiocy of racism fades.

canada has not heard of free speech either?
Free speech is one aspect of a free society, but when one invokes hate speech then they can spend some time in jail.

And that's the whole point. The more people stop harping about race, the faster the idiocy of racism fades.

Only racism isn't going to fade because the anti-racists stop talking about race; it will only fade when the racists stop talking (more precisely, thinking) about race.

To stop racism, one needs to figure out the cause?

It is impossible to stop racism, you might as well stop idiocy.
There will always be at least one racist idiot out there.

"Acknowledge that murder is a viable way to treat people, and you compound the problem: you elevate the importance of his murder victim status to higher than the importance of the man."



"Perpetuating the idea of murder is compounding the problem, not helping it. We should wipe laws against murder from the lawbooks."



"Murder will be an issue for as long as people think it is important.

When people stop caring about murder, there will be no murders."

That's the worst argument ever. There is clearly a fundamental difference between racism and murder. Racism is a meme, a socially-transmitted thought pattern. Murder is a primal act, emphasis on act, as an act does not cease to exist when you don't think about it, but thoughts do cease to exist when you stop thinking them.



(Argh. I lost the Game.)

Only racism isn't going to fade because the anti-racists stop talking about race; it will only fade when the racists stop talking (more precisely, thinking) about race.

Exactly, infact ignoring the racism will only make them scream louder.

That's the worst argument ever. There is clearly a fundamental difference between racism and murder. Racism is a meme, a socially-transmitted thought pattern. Murder is a primal act, emphasis on act, as an act does not cease to exist when you don't think about it, but thoughts do cease to exist when you stop thinking them.

As I have been throughout most of this thread, I was using racism to reference acts of racism - discrimination, hate crimes, etc.

It is true that there is a "thought pattern" behind racism, but there is a "thought pattern" behind murder as well - it requires thinking of another human being as a person who should be killed.

"Acknowledge that murder is a viable way to treat people, and you compound the problem: you elevate the importance of his murder victim status to higher than the importance of the man."



"Perpetuating the idea of murder is compounding the problem, not helping it. We should wipe laws against murder from the lawbooks."



"Murder will be an issue for as long as people think it is important.

When people stop caring about murder, there will be no murders."



you completely ignore the part where race is used in more than just hate crimes.

Black History Month is racist just as much as someone getting fired because they're Arabian.

removing the first is as important as removing the second.

That's the worst argument ever. There is clearly a fundamental difference between racism and murder. Racism is a meme, a socially-transmitted thought pattern. Murder is a primal act, emphasis on act, as an act does not cease to exist when you don't think about it, but thoughts do cease to exist when you stop thinking them.

exactly.

Black History Month is racist just as much as someone getting fired because they're Arabian.

No, it isn't.

Firstly, it's a corrective to existing biases in the treatment of history.

Secondly, "history months" need not be exclusive. There is no reason someone could not start an Irish History Month, or a Latino History Month, or something to that effect.

It is true that there is a "thought pattern" behind racism, but there is a "thought pattern" behind murder as well - it requires thinking of another human being as a person who should be killed.

Except that every guy who gets fired and dreams of shooting the office building up the next day is not a murderer, no matter how much he thinks about it.

Only the ones who act upon those beliefs are murderers.

racism is a belief, murder is an action.

Except that every guy who gets fired and dreams of shooting the office building up the next day is not a murderer, no matter how much he thinks about it.

Only the ones who act upon those beliefs are murderers.

racism is a belief, murder is an action.

The distinction is in semantics, not in substance.

I don't care if people have the occasional racist thought, any more than I care if they have the occasional homicidal thought. What I care about is when they act on such thoughts.

No, it isn't.

Firstly, it's a corrective to existing biases in the treatment of history.

Secondly, "history months" need not be exclusive. There is no reason someone could not start an Irish History Month, or a Latino History Month, or something to that effect.

It's not "corrective" at all.


I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

what part of that means posting a big neon sign every month saying "Black people here, look at the black people! If you're black, feel proud, if you're not, just watch the rest of us feel proud"


every time the ocean wipes the beach clean, people like you come back and redraw the lines in the sand, saying that somehow "Black" or "White" are important, and that they are distinctions that should be celebrated.

"Black history month" and "Affirmative Action" do nothing but perpetuate the "us vs. them" attitude, on both sides, that keep racism alive.

you want to end racial discrimination in hiring policies? don't do it be enforcing quotas, do it by eliminating the little "What race are you" check mark on the application slip.

If race really doesn't matter, they why are you making such a big deal about it?

How about teaching children that its wrong. I think I was in grade 5 when I learned what racism was and it was because a dance group was doing a dance about anti-racism.

...apparently by not talking about it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10482634/

Think about it: We have black history events, we even (in the UK) have "black conferences", and every time an attack happens that may have been racist, colour is mentioned (whether white or black) and there is a mention that "the police are treating it as a racially aghravated attack".

What if we stop mentioning (unless necessary for identifying attackers/victims) the colours of people in crimes. Then instead of a "a hate crime on a certain colour person", it becomes "a horrible crime on a person". People start seeing all horrible crimes as just that - horrible crimes, without thinking about the colour of the persons involved.

Of course it won't happen overnight, and it almost certainly won't eradicate racism, but is it not a good place to start?

Another way is to...well...kill every freakin member of the KKK. Kill them,followers, and any one who thinks racism is good. THATS a place to start. Get racist on the racists.

No, it isn't.

Firstly, it's a corrective to existing biases in the treatment of history.

Secondly, "history months" need not be exclusive. There is no reason someone could not start an Irish History Month, or a Latino History Month, or something to that effect.

Tell me why the blacks got the shortest month in the year? I'm hungry. Go away.:D J/K Whatever. I'm bored. Dont,stop,eat. I hunger.:fluffle:

Well duh. Thats why affirmative action is complete bullshit because the only people who keep bringing race up and making it an issue are those who claim they are trying to stop racism.

you completely ignore the part where race is used in more than just hate crimes.

Black History Month is racist just as much as someone getting fired because they're Arabian.

removing the first is as important as removing the second.

The only way in which Black History Month is racist is in the way that we only focus on 'black history' for one month a year.

If that's what you mean then I agree with you; the concept is disgusting: does it mean we teach white history for eleven out of twelve months of the year and black history for one?

Racism exists and to end the discussion is self-destructive. If a white man kills an asian man because he is asian, a black man attacks a white man because he is white or an asian vocally abuses a Jew for the fact that he is Jewish then a discussion MUST be had about hatred within society, how to better educate people and remove ignorance and social divides along the lines of colour.

To ignore it doesn't remove it or solve it. Check out this website (concerned about putting the link up as it is a fascist organisation, but oh well) and tell me we can get rid of this without having an open discussion:

www.natfront.com

canada has not heard of free speech either?

We understand the need for such, quite well. We also understand that there is a reasonable limitation upon it. We enjoy the freedom of not having to endure racist crap simply to satisfy someone's right to be a boorish, contempible twat.

Don't like it? Well, your like like or dislike moves me not one iota. The people who are very concerned with preserving their right to be boorish, contempible twats are free to pursue that option wherever they choose - I would personally suggest the USA in these matters - but no, they aren't free to pursue that option here. They'll either have to learn to shut up and cope, or they'll simply have to emigrate to wherever it is that will allow them to be braying jackasses in public.

the only people who keep bringing race up and making it an issue are those who claim they are trying to stop racism.

what are you, retarded? that's so divorced from reality that it's just silly.

The only way in which Black History Month is racist is in the way that we only focus on 'black history' for one month a year.

If that's what you mean then I agree with you; the concept is disgusting: does it mean we teach white history for eleven out of twelve months of the year and black history for one?

almost.

I'm sure history is taught intact for the rest of the year, but the problem I have with it is that celebrating just the blacks is a re-affirmation that the race of these people is important in any way.

If you want a colorless society, why do you deliberately bring attention to people depending on what race they are?

If race really doesn't matter, they why are you making such a big deal about it?

Race doesn't matter: racism does.

what are you, retarded? that's so divorced from reality that it's just silly.

I'm sure they're not the only people who make race an issue, but they do make the problem worse.

If you want a colorless society, why do you deliberately bring attention to people depending on what race they are?

because in our current society, if you do not specifically go out to include various other groups we default back to white males reflexively. when that stops happening, then we can talk.

what part of that means posting a big neon sign every month saying "Black people here, look at the black people! If you're black, feel proud, if you're not, just watch the rest of us feel proud"

"By their content of their character" - not by how the dominant culture decides to treat them.

The dominant culture marginalizes them. Thus, Black History Month - people who "by the content of their character" should be included in history get included in history.

You do realize that King said this as a leader of a movement mostly composed of Blacks that aimed at the liberation of Blacks? By your logic, shouldn't he have ignored the racism and discrimination that was targeted against him and other Blacks, and hoped it would just magically disappear as a result?

"Black history month" and "Affirmative Action" do nothing but perpetuate the "us vs. them" attitude, on both sides, that keep racism alive.

Affirmative action and "Black History Month" do not create racism. They counter it.

If you really believe that racism would not exist without affirmative action and Black History Month, you are either incredibly ignorant or utterly bigoted.

you want to end racial discrimination in hiring policies? don't do it be enforcing quotas, do it by eliminating the little "What race are you" check mark on the application slip.

So the employer gets to discriminate in other ways, and nobody can tell.

If race really doesn't matter, they why are you making such a big deal about it?

Because racism does.

what are you, retarded? that's so divorced from reality that it's just silly.

I don't know, are you retarded? You could answer yes to the question if A) you really are retard or B) your a bleeding heart liberal.

I'm sure they're not the only people who make race an issue, but they do make the problem worse.

No. Views as obviously deluded as the notion that ignoring a problem will somehow "solve" it are the ones that make the problem worse.

I'm sure they're not the only people who make race an issue, but they do make the problem worse.

no. racist motherfuckers make the problem exist. the fact that racist motherfuckers don't like the fact that we're trying to undo their racist motherfuckitude, doesn't make it any less their racist motherfucking responsibility that they are racist motherfuckers.

B) your a bleeding heart liberal.

I don't know about "liberal," but "bleeding heart" seems obviously complimentary. Why some people seem to think it should be used as an insult is beyond me.

almost.

I'm sure history is taught intact for the rest of the year, but the problem I have with it is that celebrating just the blacks is a re-affirmation that the race of these people is important in any way.

If you want a colorless society, why do you deliberately bring attention to people depending on what race they are?

Because people shouldn't be afraid to embrace multi-culturalism and multi-racial societies. I don't distinguish between black and white etc but I defend the rights of minorities/or any peoples to express pride in their heritage. I'm in a relationship with a black woman who is proud of her Caribbean heritage: I don't give a shit if she's black or not but why shouldn't she celebrate a history that has not always allowed black people to be proud of the colour of their skin?

Similarly, I'm a secular Jew. Hate the religion but I'm proud of my ancestory, so I talk about it: it doesn't define me but it's a part of me regardless.

No. Views as obviously deluded as the notion that ignoring a problem will somehow "solve" it are the ones that make the problem worse.

come on, everybody knows that the best way to fix anything is to let the problem fester. if it's good enough for gangrene, it's good enough for society.

Another way is to...well...kill every freakin member of the KKK. Kill them,followers, and any one who thinks racism is good. THATS a place to start. Get racist on the racists.

Wrong. Perpetuating Hate with Hate will not bring it to an end, it'll only lead to both sides being violent. Think a little on their side. They commite crimes against people who've never really done anything to them. You think they'll stop? NO, they'll finally have a reason to commit the crimes they've been committing. They'll become reactionary.

The only permanent solution I see takes a hell of a lot longer, but it can actually work. It's called befriending.

No, I'm not about to go "after-school special" on you all, but unlike all your hypothesiis, mine has proof.

http://www.collegiatetimes.com/news/1/ARTICLE/3234/2004-03-30.html

Hell, he's even friends with the Grand-Wizard of his home state, but it wasn't mentioned in the article.

because in our current society, if you do not specifically go out to include various other groups we default back to white males reflexively. when that stops happening, then we can talk.

I don't

I don't

that's nice. doesn't change the truth of my statement.

Only racism isn't going to fade because the anti-racists stop talking about race; it will only fade when the racists stop talking (more precisely, thinking) about race.

Racism can only fade away when the non-existance of race is accepted. The racist and many of the anti-racist perpetuate the myth of race.

come on, everybody knows that the best way to fix anything is to let the problem fester. if it's good enough for gangrene, it's good enough for society.

I'd liken it more to hypochondria. If you continually reinforce a hypochondriac's idea that they actually have a disease, they cannot deal with the real underlying factors.

If people keep reinforcing the idea that race exists, we will be unable to deal with the real social and cultural issues.

Racism can only fade away when the non-existance of race is accepted. The racist and many of the anti-racist perpetuate the myth of race.

No. The anti-racists are concerned with racism, not race.

No. The anti-racists are concerned with racism, not race.

Wrong. Some anti-racists oppose racism on the grounds that race does not exist, but some buy into the myth. Those that buy into the myth are self-defeating, as they perpetuate the idea that race exists, thus perpetuating the grounds from racism.

No. The anti-racists are concerned with racism, not race.

A great way to dismantle the institution of racism, would be to dismantle the institution its built on, Race.

Wrong. Some anti-racists oppose racism on the grounds that race does not exist, but some buy into the myth.

Which ones?

A great way to dismantle the institution of racism, would be to dismantle the institution its built on, Race.

You have it backwards. Dismantling race requires dismantling racism. As long as there are racists, there will be people thinking in racial terms.

You have it backwards. Dismantling race requires dismantling racism. As long as there is race, there will be people thinking in racial terms.

fixed

You have it backwards. Dismantling race requires dismantling racism. As long as there are racists, there will be people thinking in racial terms.

Without race, you cannot have racism; without racism, you can have race.

A great way to dismantle the institution of racism, would be to dismantle the institution its built on, Race.

Indeed.

Which ones?

I'm not sure what you're asking. If you want to know which anti-racists buy into the myth if race, chech out the multitudinous threads on the existance of race that seem to pop up here every couple of months. You'll find lots of people who belive race exists but racism is wrong.

How ironic is this? I just had an argument today with a guy I work with about whether or not it matters that there's a lot of Jews in high places...
You know, I used to think that eliminating a view of race was a good idea too. Certainly I don't think we should be publishing the race of criminals unless it's important in apprehending them. For example, I live in Hamilton, Ontario, which is close to a recent land claim by the Natives who live just outside nearby Caledonia. There was a lot of racism coming out of Caledonia, and that mildly spilled over into Hamilton. Not long after, the local paper reported a spree of grand theft auto by young men "from Six Nations of the Grand River" (the reserve). My already racist stepfather pointed this out as another case of Natives being naturally criminal and lazy. So, I definitely think it's unnecessary to point out or give clues to race when it's not important to the story.
On the other hand, I certainly can see why Blacks, Hispanics, etc. would want to have "history months". Is that any different than having Oktoberfest outside of Germany? Nobody makes a big deal about that, but nobody could argue that the Germans and, say, the Russians are of a different ethnicity. Nobody considers it a barrier, because Russians are free to participate in Oktoberfest, just as Whites and everyone else can celebrate Black History Month with our Black brothers and sister.
I also don't have a problem with, say, Black campus groups at universities. Whether we like it or not, Blacks have a common heritage and interest, and I fail to see how it's different than a hobby group. There are Irish, Italian, and Jewish community groups in my immediate neighbourhood, and I have never felt excluded just because I have no reason to go to them. Quite the contrary, the diversity that I see around me (I live in a white-bred suburb, so that diversity IS limited, although I go to school in a more diverse neighbourhood in the city) is inspiring and I use it to get more familiar with cultures around the world.
To eliminate racism, I think we need to become more concious of our differences, but to celebrate them. Having Days of Unity festivals like they have in my area, for example, are very much effective in bringing together these groups.
I have to level some criticism at my own race (white guys) for this: nothing seems good enough for us ever. Growing up in a more diverse area as I have, I saw how non-whites were always under so much more pressure than white guys and girls. If they don't succeed to our level, they're lazy. If they surpass us, we're jealous of them for making us look bad (case in point, Natives and Jews respectively). We judge men and women by the size of their wallets, and it's strange that there's both too small AND too big. Want to eliminate racism? Just change your damn attitude and look beyond the skin colour or region of origin, but don't let it disappear into an oblivion. Cherish our differences, don't let them get in the way. Few acts of government can change that.
Oh, and one final note: hate crimes should receive the same sentence as any other crime, but with the added stipulation of rehabilitation. I mean, if you just throw someone in a jail for attacking a black guy he hates, he'll grow even more resentful at Black people for putting him away for a longer time. We gotta have more safe racial mingling at our correctional facilities, like having behind-the-glass visitors. It takes time to heal, and an effort from all sides. Punishment won't do the trick.

Without race, you cannot have racism; without racism, you can have race.

But you will never eliminate race without eliminating racism.

-snip-

Soheran, there's a prime example of an anti-racist buying into the myth of race. :D