NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20660946-2,00.html

PM'S plan for school chaplains

By Linda Silmalis and Clair Weaver

October 29, 2006 12:00am
Article from: The Sunday Telegraph

CHAPLAINS will be posted in schools across Australia under a federal Government plan to provide students with greater spiritual guidance.

Prime Minister John Howard will today unveil details of the $90 million national chaplaincy program, which also aims to give support to students during times of grief.

The initiative, which was immediately criticised for discriminating in favour of Christians, was approved by Cabinet earlier this month. Today's announcement follows last weekend's fatal car crash near Byron Bay which killed four teenagers from Kadina High School.

It also follows the tragic death of a Sydney high school student who was found dead the night before her first HSC exam.

Under the plan, government and non-government schools will be able to apply for a grant of up to $20,000 a year to employ a chaplain.

The federal Government wants to encourage schools to spend more time developing the ethical and spiritual health of students.

While not necessarily requiring to have a religious background, the chaplains will be expected to provide religious support.

The chaplains will also be required to work with existing schools counsellors in supporting students dealing with issues such as a family break-up or the death of a fellow student.

The program will leave it up to individual schools to decide on whether to employ a chaplain on a part-time or full-time basis.

Andrew Macintosh, of political think tank The Australia Institute, condemned the proposal as "ridiculous".

"The money would be far better spent on teaching resources," he said.

"And it is overtly discriminatory if you are only talking about Christian chaplains."

It would be more appropriate to appoint professional counsellors without religious affiliations to provide support to students in times of grief, he said.

Yet again, John Howard sees fit to force his beliefs on everyone else. He just loves imagining that all of Australia is made up of 25-60 year old white christian straight males who really love sports and earning more than $60,000 per annum.

I understand that chaplains do great work in the community, but why cant they provide us with counsellors in our schools who are free from any religious views? Where does the child go who is Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, or non-religious? Keep chaplains in private schools funded by churches, and give the public schools a trained professional who wont see everything through a filter of religion.

Where does the child go who is Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, or non-religious?


I guess they just "love it or leave it." Hooray fascism!

Is the chaplain in the school like a counselor and do the kids come voluntarily? Because if so, I see nothing wrong with it...

I understand that chaplains do great work in the community, but why cant they provide us with counsellors in our schools who are free from any religious views? Where does the child go who is Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, or non-religious? Keep chaplains in private schools funded by churches, and give the public schools a trained professional who wont see everything through a filter of religion.

There should be chaplains representing all major religions. just like in the US navy which has chaplains for almost any religion ready to make sure the sailors get the religious support they need and to oversee burial rights. Also I think chaplains should be versed in psychology to be able to provide psychological help as well as religious guidence.

My principals want to say im opposed to it; but really I dont feel that way. If children want the oppurtunity (especially in times of tragedies) for spiritual guidance, I really cant see a reason to oppose it.

The government is funding something spiritual, but as long as its not specific...Of course, it could be specific by practice, we'll have to see.

Im curious as to how well it will work.

I would think it makes more sense to provide a place with resources regarding spiritual and secular counseling so that students of all spiritual backgrounds could go there for help rather than just have one person who might not be able to provide the same level of guidance for every kind of spirituality and religious tradition.

Is the chaplain in the school like a counselor and do the kids come voluntarily? Because if so, I see nothing wrong with it...

There is nothng 'wrong' with it per se. What is wrong is that is overtly favours one group over all others. The christian kids have somewhere to go to when they need spiritual guidance at school. The other kids get to
just "love it or leave it."

There should be chaplains representing all major religions. just like in the US navy which has chaplains for almost any religion ready to make sure the sailors get the religious support they need and to oversee burial rights. Also I think chaplains should be versed in psychology to be able to provide psychological help as well as religious guidence.

Are there even Quaker chaplains?

Besides, schools don't have a boatload of money to throw around on rabbis, imams, and the like, so it makes sense that they accomodate the majority as best as they can.

I guess they just "love it or leave it." Hooray fascism!

I don't recall the article explicitly saying there would be only christian chaplains......All it said was that "the plan was criticised for being bias towards christianity"

There should be chaplains representing all major religions. just like in the US navy which has chaplains for almost any religion ready to make sure the sailors get the religious support they need and to oversee burial rights. Also I think chaplains should be versed in psychology to be able to provide psychological help as well as religious guidence.

That would be fine if all the schools in Australia had budgets like the US Navy. Unfortunately they dont. Hence we need a single counsellor with training, first and foremost, in psychology. And preferably with access to information, and a basic knowledge, of various religions.

Is the chaplain in the school like a counselor and do the kids come voluntarily? Because if so, I see nothing wrong with it...

If the chaplain is like a counselor, then why not just have a secular counselor? Why does the position need to have a religious overtone?

I don't think the government should be funding religious/spiritual positions at all in our schools.

Are there even Quaker chaplains?

Besides, schools don't have a boatload of money to throw around on rabbis, imams, and the like, so it makes sense that they accomodate the majority as best as they can.

There are "chaplains" for any religion even satanism, scientology, and the like. There is no reason why they cannot just hire one unbiased theologist who can provide religious guidence for all the schools diverse adherants.

There is nothng 'wrong' with it per se. What is wrong is that is overtly favours one group over all others. The christian kids have somewhere to go to when they need spiritual guidance at school. The other kids get to

I understand how you can see how it is unfair, but I don't think the school has enough money to religious leaders from every different religion, so they just try to accomodate the majority.

There are "chaplains" for any religion even satanism, scientology, and the like. There is no reason why they cannot just hire one unbiased theologist who can provide religious guidence for all the schools diverse adherants.

What exactly is an "unbiased theologist"? Someone who has a degree in theology? Does that make them fit to provide spiritual guidance?

If the chaplain is like a counselor, then why not just have a secular counselor? Why does the position need to have a religious overtone?
That does seem like the best way to go. However, if the school wants a religious chaplain, it should have that right.

I understand how you can see how it is unfair, but I don't think the school has enough money to religious leaders from every different religion, so they just try to accomodate the majority.

I would rather see the money spent on teachers or equipment for the school. The government shouldn't be funding religion in our public schools, that's why we have separation of church & state. If you want chaplains in your school, go to a private school.

What exactly is an "unbiased theologist"? Someone who has a degree in theology? Does that make them fit to provide spiritual guidance?

Yes, someone who has a degree in theology, and has studied psychology who isn't bias at all. Yes I think they could provide Religious guidence, quote scripture, tell what X religion's theology says on the subject, Etc. You only need a qualified member of the religion's institution if your doing marriage services, burials, baptisms or other "welcolming" ceremonies, etc. and clearly a school doesn't do any of those.

However, if the school wants a religious chaplain, it should have that right.

In a public school i really dont think the school does have that right. A private school would be a completely different story. If parents choose and pay for their kids to attend then they can hire Bobo the pyromaniac clown to teach them about spirituality for all i care. But when its a public school where any child may attend the schools right to hire who they choose is outweighed by the students rights to freedom of religion, freedom from oppression, freedom from adverse harm, etc. Otherwise schools could hire innapropriate staff for any faculty they choose. It would be like hiring an olympic athletics scout to be a PE teacher. Sure the elite kids would excel. But the poor to average kids would probably see little of his attention and would not feel comfortable approaching him for advice.

Yeah I get it. Lets just put a chaplain there, so when something terrible happens he can take advantage of their vulnerable state to convert them to our BS religion. Fucking parasites. This is practically state instituted brainwashing.

If the chaplain is like a counselor, then why not just have a secular counselor? Why does the position need to have a religious overtone?
My school had both. The chaplain did community projects, coordinated some extracurricular activities and could be contacted when people had personal problems they wanted to talk about. She was from Africa, and pretty hot too. The "guidance counselor" helped more with academic questions and the like. She wasn't from Africa, and not very hot at all.

To be honest, I never had the feeling that she was particularly eager to push religion down anybody's throat. Apart from the official name, she might as well have been a particularly engaged secular counselor. I never visited her though. The people that had a lot to do with her were already Christians, or just really good people who got a kick out of doing community projects.

That would be fine if all the schools in Australia had budgets like the US Navy. Unfortunately they dont. Hence we need a single counsellor with training, first and foremost, in psychology. And preferably with access to information, and a basic knowledge, of various religions.
Yeah, or we just don't put chaplains in schools as it is. We are never going to outgrow religion as a society if we keep cramming it down the throats of the youth.

If the chaplain is like a counselor, then why not just have a secular counselor? Why does the position need to have a religious overtone?

I don't think the government should be funding religious/spiritual positions at all in our schools.
Exactly! every school has a counsellor as it is. Why would Johnny do this other than to push his religion. Fuck! Another thing to hate christianity for.

Exactly! every school has a counsellor as it is. Why would Johnny do this other than to push his religion. Fuck! Another thing to hate christianity for.

Johnny loves Jesus. Ever since Jesus got trapped in John Howards eyebrows they've had a very special connection. Why cant they call a snap election now so we can just get the bastard out of office once and for all?

There are "chaplains" for any religion even satanism, scientology, and the like. There is no reason why they cannot just hire one unbiased theologist who can provide religious guidence for all the schools diverse adherants.
Except that it would be a waste of money and time. Plus it is illogical. Think about it, religions are generally mutually exclusive, for one to be correct, the others have to be incorrect. So the state sponsoring one religion implicates that it finds other religions to be incorrect. However if the state sponsors multiple relgions then it must be sponsoring incorrect religions (if only one can be correct). Isn't it a monumental waste of public funds to throw money at false religions?

Why cant they call a snap election now so we can just get the bastard out of office once and for all?
Because he'd win yet again?

There is no electable opposition, that's the problem. I think the best thing would probably be for Costello to take over. He's free market, but not as conservative as Johnny. Much more libertarian.

I understand how you can see how it is unfair, but I don't think the school has enough money to religious leaders from every different religion, so they just try to accomodate the majority.
Or don't accomodate them at all. What a massive waste of cash. The vast majority of Australians a somewhat a-religious anyhow. That is, they put 'christian' on the form, because they were baptised, but they haven't ever been to church.

Because he'd win yet again?

There is no electable opposition, that's the problem. I think the best thing would probably be for Costello to take over. He's free market, but not as conservative as Johnny. Much more libertarian.

hmm true.

Liberals = Conservative nutjobs
Labour = Bunch of squabbling children with no solidarity
Greens + Democrats = token gestures.

Guess we're screwed.

That does seem like the best way to go. However, if the school wants a religious chaplain, it should have that right.
Not if it is public (i.e. It will be spending my tax on hiring a professional BS weaver, we have enough of them in parliment).

I would rather see the money spent on teachers or equipment for the school. The government shouldn't be funding religion in our public schools, that's why we have separation of church & state. If you want chaplains in your school, go to a private school.
Exactly. I went to 10 different public schools and 1 private in my education. Some were rural, some metropolitan. The one thing I can tell you about public education is that it needs all of the money it can get. I would have been spewing if this had of happened when I was at school and my drama faculty couldn't afford stage lights, my maths faculty had no calculators, my science faculty was using 30 year old equipment, my geography faculty was using maps with the USSR on them, and my english faculty were photocopying books for the students with missing pages from their novels. Fuck that. I can't believe this shit.

Because he'd win yet again?

There is no electable opposition, that's the problem. I think the best thing would probably be for Costello to take over. He's free market, but not as conservative as Johnny. Much more libertarian.

I think you've summed up the political situation pretty well. I despise our current government (I vote Green), but I'd definitely prefer to see Costello in power, rather than Howard.

I think you've summed up the political situation pretty well. I despise our current government (I vote Green), but I'd definitely prefer to see Costello in power, rather than Howard.

Can we do write-in votes for Boony?

Johnny loves Jesus. Ever since Jesus got trapped in John Howards eyebrows they've had a very special connection. Why cant they call a snap election now so we can just get the bastard out of office once and for all?
Does that mean Jonh, his eyebrows,and jesus count as one homogenous unit? If not, does that count as election fraud or something? Surely John would have to split the votes he gets into 3.

Well I really don't want to get into this decision by Howard, but I wouldn like to say I am an atheist yet my parents put me through Catholic education my entire life, so I am used to (especially in College) having talks with the campus chaplains, you kinda had to. And not once did one of them ever say a word about God or religion, the guy was basically a councellor who just asked me what I wanted to do in life etc. What Howard has put foward maybe different but this is Australia, the multicultural land of the free!

I understand how you can see how it is unfair, but I don't think the school has enough money to religious leaders from every different religion, so they just try to accomodate the majority.

The state shouldn't be funding anyone's religion, even if it is that of the majority.

The state shouldn't be funding anyone's religion, even if it is that of the majority.

Spot on. That's my objection to the plan.

Johnny loves Jesus. Ever since Jesus got trapped in John Howards eyebrows they've had a very special connection.

Oh those evil Australian eyebrows...!!!!111 :p

I'm a teacher in NSW, and if my school does this, I'm walking.

Why spend thousands of dollars on a religious counselor when every school already has a secular one?!

Why spend thousands of dollars on religion when schools can't even afford suitable resources?!

The time has come for Howard and his cronies to fuck off and let a government that won't turn Australia into a theocracy run things.

Seems like a wise use of $90 million of Australian tax payers' money.

Seems like a wise use of $90 million of Australian tax payers' money.

Exactly - which means atheists, occultists, UUists, etc, will have to pay for this too?

I'd refuse.

I understand that chaplains do great work in the community, but why cant they provide us with counsellors in our schools who are free from any religious views? Where does the child go who is Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, or non-religious? Keep chaplains in private schools funded by churches, and give the public schools a trained professional who wont see everything through a filter of religion.

I dont think you understand what "chaplin" means. It is not an exclusively Christian term, and refers to the collective religious institutions & activities of a place, eg a hospital, a unviersity, a school. For example, at my university (university of Kent @ Canterbury) there is a university Chrisitian union, Cathsoc, Muslim prayer meeting and Buddisit meditiation group all under the 'univieristy chaplin' office .

Why do you assume that chaplains will only talk to christians? And that non chrisitans will not talk to chaplains?

Seems like a wise use of $90 million of Australian tax payers' money.
It is from John Howard's perspective ... he has to keep the support of the Christian right somehow.

Why do you assume that chaplains will only talk to christians? And that non chrisitans will not talk to chaplains?

That's not the issue. The issue is whether taxpayers should be funding the religious activities of one particular religion. The issue is whether the money would be better spent on someone whose activities were non-denominational or secular, or better spent on something else entirely.

I'm a teacher in NSW, and if my school does this, I'm walking.
Why spend thousands of dollars on a religious counselor when every school already has a secular one?!

Why spend thousands of dollars on religion when schools can't even afford suitable resources?!

The time has come for Howard and his cronies to fuck off and let a government that won't turn Australia into a theocracy run things.

Glad I'm not the only one. :D

In Queensland (I don't know about the other states) we already have part-time chaplains in most schools, funded by the churches. I see nothing wrong with this as it is funded by the church and not by my tax dollars (Though I would be interested to see what would happen if a mosque or a synagogue wanted to fund a religious counselor of it's own.). What I do have a problem with is my government spending my money on something which I believe is unnecessary, discriminatory and oppressive.

Spend the money on ensuring that English departments have enough books for each student in the class, or that Maths departments have enough calculators or Science departments have enough of whatever they need. If students want spiritual guidance, they can go to church and Sunday School.