NationStates Jolt Archive


America's New Proxy-Fatah...and why it's a mistake

RockTheCasbah
28-10-2006, 16:26
One of the oldest sayings when it come to strategy is `the enemy of my enemy is my friend.'

And it's generally true - unless the enemy of your enemy is also your enemy, might demand an impossible price for some very limited assistance, and constitute a strategic error of major proportions.

Kind of like using a shotgun to deal with a splinter in your hand - it's the wrong tool for the job and the cure might be worse than the disease!

I'm convinced that this is the new position the Bush Administration is taking regarding Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah.

In the last month, we've seen a major racheting up of the clashes between the elected Hamas government of the Palestinian Authority and the armed wing of Abbas' Fatah. We've seen President Bush and Condi Rice lionize Mahmoud Abbas, reiterate their call for a second Arab Palestinian state, appear at pro-Palestinian functions in Washington, block congressional legislation designed to cut off most American aid to the Palestinians for the very good reason that there's little or no accountability on where the money is spent, provide training, fresh arms and ammunition to Abbas private army of terrorists, Force 17.

On the other hand, we've seen Iran and Syria increase their support militarily and financially for Hamas, providing money, arms and tactical training.

Abbas went public today that `the time of dialogue is ended' as far as a unity government is concerned. Both Abbas and Hamas have been gathering forces in the others' territory, with Abbas ordering the deployment of thousands of Fatah gunmen and PA policemen in the streets of the Gaza Strip and Hamas marshalling troops in Judea and Samaria.

There have been a number of rumors floating around about Abbas making an attempt dissolving the Hamas government, and of a `Black Saturday' battle between the the two factions.

It's obvious that we're looking at the beginnings of a proxy war with the US backing Abbas and Fatah and Iran and Syria backing Hamas.

Even assuming Abbas wins (something that's by no means certain), it's a severe mistake for the US to back a dog in this fight on several levels.

First of all, we should make no mistake that an American attempt to destroy a popularly elected Arab government, no matter how loathsome, racist and violent it might be does not go unnoticed by the Muslim world, and feeds into the Islamic fantasy world of Zionist driven conspiracies and Crusader interference.

Second, even if Abbas wins, he's going to want a reward that the US in no position to guarantee.

A democratic, prosperous peace loving Arab Palestinian state next door to Israel might have worked at the time of the Oslo Accords, when people were prepared for a new start and a whole generation of Palestinians hadn't yet been poisoned and brainwashed by their mosques, schools and media. At this point, it's not going to be possible for years. And `moderate' Abbas, who's graduate thesis at Moscow University was on how the Holocaust was a myth and who was along for the entire Arafat ride has done nothing to make it so.

The best deal the Palestinians could expect at this point in terms of a settlement with Israel is something considerably less than Arafat turned down at Camp David.

Unless the US is planning to attack, invade and defeat Israel, deport the surviving Jews elsewhere and hand over all of Israel to Abbas and the Palestinians, there's no cultural, historical or economic basis for a viable second Palestinian Arab state - which means that `Palestine'will remain an economic basket case for the forseeable future.

The main `export' of Palestine for many years now has been terrorism, along with sidelines of weapons smuggling, prostitution and human trafficking, and drug sales. People reared on that lifestyle are not exactly going to have much incentive to change. Some goombah used to carrying the romantic aura of a `freedom fighter' along with his AK47 and making a comfortable living smuggling or shaking down shopkeepers is not going to go to work at the Palestinian equivalent of McDonalds anytime soon.

In addition, one thing Fatah has proven itself efficient at is corruption. The Palestinians themselves estimate that at least 60% of the humanitarian aid that was supposed to go to the Palestinian people ended up being diverted and stolen. Other estimates are even higher.

Part of the reason, aside from the basic venality of the Palestinian leaders is that the Palestinians clans and `families' have first call on the loyalty of their `soldiers' and affiliates in an almost feudal sense, and any loyalty they might have to a centralized Palestinian government is based strictly on patronage, criminal fiefdoms and territory and insider deals. Arafat bought their loyalty by parceling the spoils out and it's a given that Abbas is going to have to do the same.

Also, if we help someone like Abbas depose the Hamas government, we will be committed to helping an Abbas led state survive against the will of a majority of its own people, with all the baggage that implies, something is guaranteed to come back and bite us at some point just as it has done elsewhere.

The majority of Palestinians are already Islamist and anti-American, as proven by the recent elections. Imagine how anti-American they'll be if we're helping to support a dictator they'll view as a tool of the Zionists and Crusaders!

Abbas, of course, will have to deflect the frustration with the corruption, the lack of freedom and the economic dysfunction just as Arafat did...by using all those weapons we've given him and those soldiers we're training for him in a war against the hated Jews..which puts everything back to square one again, except for those Israeli and Palestinian civilians unlucky enough to be caught in the crossfire.

The US needs to think very, very carefully about this course of action. It strikes me as a lose-lose situation no matter what, and I think we'd be much better off simply admitting that supporting a second Arab Palestinian state was a mistake and an obstacle to real peace in the region.
Yootopia
28-10-2006, 16:29
More to the point - it's completely undermining democracy. Not that it's anything new, mind.
Nodinia
28-10-2006, 16:41
A democratic, prosperous peace loving Arab Palestinian state next door to Israel might have worked at the time of the Oslo Accords, when people were prepared for a new start and a whole generation of Palestinians hadn't yet been poisoned and brainwashed by their mosques, schools and media..

Millenia ago, in the 1990's...when the excuse was the same with a different name attached. As the US blocked Barghouti from running, it severly weakened Fatah as a party. Hamas's victory owes much to that intervention, ironically. A big child, playing with fire, in somebody elses house.
RockTheCasbah
28-10-2006, 16:45
Millenia ago, in the 1990's...when the excuse was the same with a different name attached. As the US blocked Barghouti from running, it severly weakened Fatah as a party. Hamas's victory owes much to that intervention, ironically. A big child, playing with fire, in somebody elses house.

That's why I think it's better to let the Palestinians to elect whoever they want, even if that person happens to be an Islamist, and let Israel deal with it-it is fully capable of doing so. This will make it obvious who wants peace and who wants war.
Nodinia
28-10-2006, 16:46
That's why I think it's better to let the Palestinians to elect whoever they want, even if that person happens to be an Islamist, and let Israel deal with it-it is fully capable of doing so. This will make it obvious who wants peace and who wants war.

O the irony of that statement....
RockTheCasbah
28-10-2006, 16:58
O the irony of that statement....

Think about it. If Israel put down their weapons, they would be over-run. If the Palestinians put down theirs, there would be peace.

Don't forget who celebrated after 9/11.
Yootopia
28-10-2006, 17:20
Don't forget who celebrated after 9/11.
Probably both.

Palestine : Huzzah, the US got attacked.
Israel : Excellent! No holds barred on the Muslim-killing front! Ready the white phosphorous!
Nodinia
28-10-2006, 20:03
Think about it. If Israel put down their weapons, they would be over-run. If the Palestinians put down theirs, there would be peace.

Don't forget who celebrated after 9/11.

I don't advocate that Israel should put down its weapons - just fuck off back over to its side of its border and bringing its bearded buddies with it.

What would occur if the Palestinians put down their weapons would be more of the same with less news coverage and quicker completion time on building projects.

And why do I give a fuck who celebrated after "9/11" ? Probably more than a few in south east Asia gave an chuckle as well as the mid-east. The occupation has been going on since 1967 with indirect or direct US aid along the way. What the fuck do you want off them? A christmas card?
Gauthier
28-10-2006, 20:09
And why do I give a fuck who celebrated after "9/11" ? Probably more than a few in south east Asia gave an chuckle as well as the mid-east. The occupation has been going on since 1967 with indirect or direct US aid along the way. What the fuck do you want off them? A christmas card?

Rocky would join IDF in throwing a "The sand n*****s are killing each other, hooray!" party the moment a Palestinian civil war became official so it's a bit disingenuous for him to bring up the 9-11 dancers as a morally objectionable point.

Of course, their mindset is "Never Again doesn't apply to brown people."
Dobbsworld
28-10-2006, 20:16
Don't forget who celebrated after 9/11.

I thought this thread was to do with the middle east, not Karl Rove.
Ultraextreme Sanity
28-10-2006, 20:55
One of the oldest sayings when it come to strategy is `the enemy of my enemy is my friend.'

And it's generally true - unless the enemy of your enemy is also your enemy, might demand an impossible price for some very limited assistance, and constitute a strategic error of major proportions.

Kind of like using a shotgun to deal with a splinter in your hand - it's the wrong tool for the job and the cure might be worse than the disease!

I'm convinced that this is the new position the Bush Administration is taking regarding Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah.

In the last month, we've seen a major racheting up of the clashes between the elected Hamas government of the Palestinian Authority and the armed wing of Abbas' Fatah. We've seen President Bush and Condi Rice lionize Mahmoud Abbas, reiterate their call for a second Arab Palestinian state, appear at pro-Palestinian functions in Washington, block congressional legislation designed to cut off most American aid to the Palestinians for the very good reason that there's little or no accountability on where the money is spent, provide training, fresh arms and ammunition to Abbas private army of terrorists, Force 17.

On the other hand, we've seen Iran and Syria increase their support militarily and financially for Hamas, providing money, arms and tactical training.

Abbas went public today that `the time of dialogue is ended' as far as a unity government is concerned. Both Abbas and Hamas have been gathering forces in the others' territory, with Abbas ordering the deployment of thousands of Fatah gunmen and PA policemen in the streets of the Gaza Strip and Hamas marshalling troops in Judea and Samaria.

There have been a number of rumors floating around about Abbas making an attempt dissolving the Hamas government, and of a `Black Saturday' battle between the the two factions.

It's obvious that we're looking at the beginnings of a proxy war with the US backing Abbas and Fatah and Iran and Syria backing Hamas.

Even assuming Abbas wins (something that's by no means certain), it's a severe mistake for the US to back a dog in this fight on several levels.

First of all, we should make no mistake that an American attempt to destroy a popularly elected Arab government, no matter how loathsome, racist and violent it might be does not go unnoticed by the Muslim world, and feeds into the Islamic fantasy world of Zionist driven conspiracies and Crusader interference.

Second, even if Abbas wins, he's going to want a reward that the US in no position to guarantee.

A democratic, prosperous peace loving Arab Palestinian state next door to Israel might have worked at the time of the Oslo Accords, when people were prepared for a new start and a whole generation of Palestinians hadn't yet been poisoned and brainwashed by their mosques, schools and media. At this point, it's not going to be possible for years. And `moderate' Abbas, who's graduate thesis at Moscow University was on how the Holocaust was a myth and who was along for the entire Arafat ride has done nothing to make it so.

The best deal the Palestinians could expect at this point in terms of a settlement with Israel is something considerably less than Arafat turned down at Camp David.

Unless the US is planning to attack, invade and defeat Israel, deport the surviving Jews elsewhere and hand over all of Israel to Abbas and the Palestinians, there's no cultural, historical or economic basis for a viable second Palestinian Arab state - which means that `Palestine'will remain an economic basket case for the forseeable future.

The main `export' of Palestine for many years now has been terrorism, along with sidelines of weapons smuggling, prostitution and human trafficking, and drug sales. People reared on that lifestyle are not exactly going to have much incentive to change. Some goombah used to carrying the romantic aura of a `freedom fighter' along with his AK47 and making a comfortable living smuggling or shaking down shopkeepers is not going to go to work at the Palestinian equivalent of McDonalds anytime soon.

In addition, one thing Fatah has proven itself efficient at is corruption. The Palestinians themselves estimate that at least 60% of the humanitarian aid that was supposed to go to the Palestinian people ended up being diverted and stolen. Other estimates are even higher.

Part of the reason, aside from the basic venality of the Palestinian leaders is that the Palestinians clans and `families' have first call on the loyalty of their `soldiers' and affiliates in an almost feudal sense, and any loyalty they might have to a centralized Palestinian government is based strictly on patronage, criminal fiefdoms and territory and insider deals. Arafat bought their loyalty by parceling the spoils out and it's a given that Abbas is going to have to do the same.

Also, if we help someone like Abbas depose the Hamas government, we will be committed to helping an Abbas led state survive against the will of a majority of its own people, with all the baggage that implies, something is guaranteed to come back and bite us at some point just as it has done elsewhere.

The majority of Palestinians are already Islamist and anti-American, as proven by the recent elections. Imagine how anti-American they'll be if we're helping to support a dictator they'll view as a tool of the Zionists and Crusaders!

Abbas, of course, will have to deflect the frustration with the corruption, the lack of freedom and the economic dysfunction just as Arafat did...by using all those weapons we've given him and those soldiers we're training for him in a war against the hated Jews..which puts everything back to square one again, except for those Israeli and Palestinian civilians unlucky enough to be caught in the crossfire.

The US needs to think very, very carefully about this course of action. It strikes me as a lose-lose situation no matter what, and I think we'd be much better off simply admitting that supporting a second Arab Palestinian state was a mistake and an obstacle to real peace in the region.



It's obvious that we're looking at the beginnings of a proxy war with the US backing Abbas and Fatah and Iran and Syria backing Hamas.


IF ....big if ........you are right and the US is supporting Abbas...and they have for years since Abbas began to cooperate somewhat in the peace process..the US alos asked hamas to back off its Israel must be destroyed stance and negotiate ..the US felt that obligation as Hamas was elected by the palestinian people..AS WAS THE PRESIDENT ABBAS whom the US does support, and if you want to be honest when the US decided it would stop sending aid the the Palestinian government ...because it would not refute terrorism...thats what started the crisis..no one is being paid and Hamas is not raising the money to replace the US aid hose it turned off.

They want to rule the country but are failing at it and the opposition who if you recall went on a war footing when Hamas decided to start kidnapping and killing its members as if they were Jews or something has decided they must do whats best for the people of Palestine.

The question is are they the best of two bad chioces ? And do they have any legitamacy ? If you are right about the majority of Palestinians being anti American and anti Abbas ...Abbas will lose . The only support he will get from the US is moral support and a return to the aid and fundding pre Hammas .

That wont help him win a war .
Ultraextreme Sanity
28-10-2006, 20:58
I thought this thread was to do with the middle east, not Karl Rove.


Whats Rove got to do with the Palestinians having a party to celibrate 9/11 and the attack on America ?
Ultraextreme Sanity
28-10-2006, 21:04
I don't advocate that Israel should put down its weapons - just fuck off back over to its side of its border and bringing its bearded buddies with it.

What would occur if the Palestinians put down their weapons would be more of the same with less news coverage and quicker completion time on building projects.

And why do I give a fuck who celebrated after "9/11" ? Probably more than a few in south east Asia gave an chuckle as well as the mid-east. The occupation has been going on since 1967 with indirect or direct US aid along the way. What the fuck do you want off them? A christmas card?


I do recall though the occupation was brought on and perpetuated by Israel being attacked and Invaded by every Arab country in the region...

Just to be fair...its not like they just woke up one day and said " Hey real estate lets go get some ! " like some other countries around the world have been known to do on occasion.

They have been at almost contstant threat of being over run by the countries that surround them since 1948 .

At least they ..UNLIKE.... some other countries..... have negotiated the return of land for guarantees of peace...sometimes it actually works like with Siani ...but not so good with Hamas and Lebanon would you not say ?
Dobbsworld
28-10-2006, 21:05
Whats Rove got to do with *snips*

* F w o o o o o o s h h h *





- yet another throwaway quip goes right over Ultra's head, apparently...
MeansToAnEnd
28-10-2006, 21:07
We should encourage Fatah to fight with Hamas so that Israel can steamroll over all of Palestine under the pretext of saving the people from the bloodshed.
Ultraextreme Sanity
28-10-2006, 21:11
* F w o o o o o o s h h h *





- yet another throwaway quip goes right over Ultra's head, apparently...


Yep sailed over...right over...Saturday ...brains on low function...brain cell depletion problems...
Nodinia
28-10-2006, 22:55
I do recall though the occupation was brought on and perpetuated by Israel being attacked and Invaded by every Arab country in the region...

No, it was Jordan, Egypt and Syria. In 1967. As the people in the areas effected by the occupation are largely palestinians previously expelled from what is now Israel in 1948, its a bit hard to see why you point that out.


Just to be fair...its not like they just woke up one day and said " Hey real estate lets go get some ! " like some other countries around the world have been known to do on occasion. ...

Putting "Hey, now we have an opportunity...." doesnt make it much better.


They have been at almost contstant threat of being over run by the countries that surround them since 1948 ....

They have treaties with Egypt and Jordan.


At least they ..UNLIKE.... some other countries..... have negotiated the return of land for guarantees of peace...sometimes it actually works like with Siani ...but not so good with Hamas and Lebanon would you not say ?

But dont seem in a rush where it doesnt suit them.
Ultraextreme Sanity
28-10-2006, 23:09
But dont seem in a rush where it doesnt suit them.

It doesn't suit them to be attacked from the very land they give up for the sake of peace and lose their security and lesson their ability to defend themselves .there are those that deny they have a right to exist remember ?
Thats the reality .


You need to read up on the six day war ..you have the roster wrong.

http://www.adl.org/ISRAEL/Record/67War.asp


They have treaties with Egypt and Jordan.

They had a treaty with lebanon too ...look how well that worked out.

And Syria and Iraq and Iran and Libia all form a group that doesnt recognise Israel and wish to destroy it.

See the Yom Kippur war 1973 for further reference.
Nodinia
28-10-2006, 23:33
It doesn't suit them to be attacked from the very land they give up for the sake of peace and lose their security and lesson their ability to defend themselves .there are those that deny they have a right to exist remember ?
Thats the reality ...

But the French, who had to fight Germany twice (3 times if you count the Prussians), today have not got the Ruhr...

And what has building civillian housing got to do with defence? Will egyptian tanks balk at the thought of destroying semi-detatched housing?


You need to read up on the six day war ..you have the roster wrong..

Egypt, Jordan, Syria..attacked Israel....Wheres Iran? Wheres Lebanon?


They had a treaty with lebanon too ...look how well that worked out..

There was never a final peace treaty signed with Lebanon. Not that lebanese Government forces were involved in those recent incidents either, or pose a threat to anyone....


And Syria and Iraq and Iran and Libia all form a group that doesnt recognise Israel and wish to destroy it.


This has what to do with building civillian housing in the occupied terrtories? How are civillian colonies supposed to deter attackers?

By the way, Iraq isn't really a threat to anybody anymore....and Libya - spare me.
Becket court
29-10-2006, 00:06
More to the point - it's completely undermining democracy. Not that it's anything new, mind.

Democracy involves a respect for human rights, as well as being elected. Hammass are about as democratic as the Nazis.