NationStates Jolt Archive

By SETH BORENSTEIN, AP Science Writer Thu Oct 26, 7:50 PM ET

WASHINGTON - It may be the season for vampires, ghosts and zombies. Just remember, they're not real, warns physicist Costas Efthimiou. Obviously, you might say. But Efthimiou, a professor at the University of Central Florida, points to surveys that show American gullibility for the supernatural.
ADVERTISEMENT

Using science and math, Efthimiou explains why it is ghosts can't walk among us while also gliding through walls, like Patrick Swayze in the movie "Ghost." That violates Newton's law of action and reaction. If ghosts walk, their feet apply force to the floor, but if they go through walls they are without substance, the professor says.

"So which is it? Are ghosts material or material-less?" he asks.

Zombies and vampires fare even worse under Efthimiou's skeptical microscope.

Efthimiou looked at the most prominent child-turned-zombie case that zombie aficionados cite: the 1989 case of a Haitian 17-year-old who was declared dead and then rose from the grave a day after the funeral and was considered a zombie. The boy, who never died but was paralyzed and could not communicate, had been poisoned with toxins from a relative of the deadly Japanese puffer fish, later research showed.

Efthimiou takes out the calculator to prove that if a vampire sucked one person's blood each month — turning each victim into an equally hungry vampire — after a couple of years there would be no people left, just vampires. He started his calculations with just one vampire and 537 million humans on Jan. 1, 1600 and shows that the human population would be down to zero by July 1602.

Take that Casper, Dracula and creepy friends.

All this may seem obvious, but to Efthimiou and other scientists, the public often isn't as skeptical as you might think. Efthimiou points to
National Science Foundation reports showing widespread belief in pseudosciences — such as vampires, astrology and ESP.

More than 1 in 3 Americans believe houses can be haunted, a 2005 Gallup poll showed. More than 20 percent of Americans believe in witches and that people can communicate with the dead. TV shows such as "Medium" and "Ghost Whisperer" are popular.

"We're talking about a large fraction of the public that believes in subjects that scientists believe are out of the question," said Efthimiou. His paper is in an archive awaiting publication either in the journal Physics Education or the magazine Skeptical Inquirer, he said.

University of Maryland physics professor Bob Park, author of the book "Voodoo Science," said scientists have to keep telling the public what seems all-too-obvious.

"There are things that we need to point out that are crap," Park said.

It's gotten so bad, Park has a hard time watching movies these days. Not Efthimiou, who liked the horror movie "The Ring."

"I have nothing against movies," he said. "I have nothing against people who like them, as long as they don't mix reality with fiction."

And Halloween? Both physicists will suspend disbelief when vampires, ghosts and zombies come to their doors.

"I give them candy and I feign fright," Park said. "They enjoy it, what the hell. The problem is the ones that never get over it."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061026/ap_on_sc/vampire_science

Now you notice I have the ghost part in bold. He uses Newton 3rd law, which is very good. However, how does Efthimiou explain the many cases where there are haunted houses, and people have recorded not just by words of mouth, but by video camera, tape recorder, etc. Paranormal Activity. I don't think Efthimiou is looking at the whole picture, and using a very limited view. There's still a whole lot about this world that we don't know or understand, and thats where the Paranormal is right now. What do y'all think?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061026/ap_on_sc/vampire_science

Now you notice I have the ghost part in bold. He uses Newton 3rd law, which is very good. However, how does Efthimiou explain the many cases where there are haunted houses, and people have recorded not just by words of mouth, but by video camera, tape recorder, etc. Paranormal Activity. I don't think Efthimiou is looking at the whole picture, and using a very limited view. There's still a whole lot about this world that we don't know or understand, and thats where the Paranormal is right now. What do y'all think?

I have yet to see one piece of recorded "proof" that could not be explained away by some clever lighting tricks and inventive engineering.

Case in point, when the original Blair Witch movie ran, the scifi channel ran a "documentary" on the Blair Witch to drum up buzz for the movie. It was entirely fake. THe whole thing was fake, everyone in it were actors. Except they never stated it was fake. They received THOUSANDS of letters from people who believed it, and more than a few people who had CLAIMED TO SEE THE WITCH THEMSELVES.

Remember, the documentary was absolutly, totally, 100% false, it was an entirely fictitious hour long commercial for an equally fictitious movie. And people not only believed it, but claimed to be living proof OF it.

All of it nonsense.

Occams razor strikes again.

you can't apply the laws of the physical to the metaphysical. ;)

however, I don't believe in ghosts that haunt houses, even though I previously lived in a "haunted house".

Efthimiou takes out the calculator to prove that if a vampire sucked one person's blood each month — turning each victim into an equally hungry vampire — after a couple of years there would be no people left, just vampires. He started his calculations with just one vampire and 537 million humans on Jan. 1, 1600 and shows that the human population would be down to zero by July 1602.
Wasn't it supposed to be part of Dracula's deal with the town he ruled that he had to kill all his victims after consuming them, to prevent this very scenario from occuring?

And just because a ghost chooses to imitate ambulatory motion doesn't mean anything other than that old habits are harder to kill than a person.

Not that I believe this stuff, I just hate patronising jackasses like Efthimiou who, apparently, has convinced himself that he is the last beacon of reason and hope for humanity.

you can't apply the laws of the physical to the metaphysical. ;)

however, I don't believe in ghosts that haunt houses, even though I previously lived in a "haunted house".

I begin to wonder, dear Smunkee, what you have not done?

And as Arthais says, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And yes, the burden is on the person claiming a paranormal event or phenomenon to prove it, not for skeptics to disprove it.

you can't apply the laws of the physical to the metaphysical. ;)

however, I don't believe in ghosts that haunt houses, even though I previously lived in a "haunted house".

I just believe that there has to be something after this life, and that it's more complex than just Heaven or Hell. I mean if we have free will in this life, what makes anyone think we won't have free will in the next?

I begin to wonder, dear Smunkee, what you have not done?


I think the only thing left on the not-done list is a standing 69 with a giraffe. :p

I dunno. I've seen every episode of Ghost Hunters and those guys are pretty thorough - even when a few guys are convinced it was evidence, the other guys can still sometimes disprove it and they move on.

I trust those guys to be as truthful as possible and not to warp or fake anything - in fact, they've actually caught someone messing with their camera and making it look like a ghost had done something when really it was just someone manipulating the pause button and hiding while pulling a bedsheet, but they caught it and discounted it as being fake.

They catch some pretty freaky stuff sometimes.

I begin to wonder, dear Smunkee, what you have not done?
flown an airplane alone
rode a motorcycle cross country
given birth to a male child
graduated college
danced naked during an election year
cut off my own toes
dyed my hair grey
peirced my genitals

lots of stuff I haven't done.

I grew up in a house that had a lot of weird stuff happen, mostly in my room because this guy killed himself in there. I chalk 90% of it up to group hysteria, and 10% to weird EM fields. ;)

And as Arthais says, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And yes, the burden is on the person claiming a paranormal event or phenomenon to prove it, not for skeptics to disprove it.
true, you can't prove a negative, everyone knows that.

I think the only thing left on the not-done list is a standing 69 with a giraffe. :p
how tall are you smunkee?

I think the only thing left on the not-done list is a standing 69 with a giraffe. :p

She did that last week.

She did that last week.

I demand pictures! :p

how tall are you smunkee?

5 feet 2 inches :( rather short, especially standing next to my husband of 6 foot 4 inches.

I dunno. I've seen every episode of Ghost Hunters and those guys are pretty thorough - even when a few guys are convinced it was evidence, the other guys can still sometimes disprove it and they move on.

I trust those guys to be as truthful as possible and not to warp or fake anything - in fact, they've actually caught someone messing with their camera and making it look like a ghost had done something when really it was just someone manipulating the pause button and hiding while pulling a bedsheet, but they caught it and discounted it as being fake.

They catch some pretty freaky stuff sometimes.

Yea. I watched the episode when they went to the OK Corral in Arizona. They decide to cancel because it was too windy. I really like the way T.A.P.S does their investigation. Really, they actually do try to disprove the hauntings rather than prove one. If anyone can prove that ghost are real, it's T.A.P.S.

http://www.the-atlantic-paranormal-society.com/

Using science and math, Efthimiou explains why it is ghosts can't walk among us while also gliding through walls, like Patrick Swayze in the movie "Ghost." That violates Newton's law of action and reaction. If ghosts walk, their feet apply force to the floor, but if they go through walls they are without substance, the professor says.

"So which is it? Are ghosts material or material-less?" he asks.

Hypothesis: ghosts have a material body, but also possess the ability to control the vibrations of that body, such that they can chose to physically interact with other material things or to pass through them by realigning their constituent parts.

Heaven and Earth, Horatio, Heaven and Earth.

Ghosts always seem to have superpowers like going through walls and invisibility, but never have fun stuff like heat vision and superstrength. Maybe that's why they always seem so frustrated...

Yea. I watched the episode when they went to the OK Corral in Arizona. They decide to cancel because it was too windy. I really like the way T.A.P.S does their investigation. Really, they actually do try to disprove the hauntings rather than prove one. If anyone can prove that ghost are real, it's T.A.P.S.

http://www.the-atlantic-paranormal-society.com/

Yeah; I know there's a good many paranormal investigation groups who would've continued investigating and used the wind as evidence despite it just being wind - they often use superstition and intuition more than they use science and logic. TAPS is the opposite of that, and I respect them for it.

5 feet 2 inches :( rather short, especially standing next to my husband of 6 foot 4 inches.
is that mostly neck? :)

is that mostly neck? :)

no....no it's not. :cool:

It's all thighs.

I don't like the assumption that a vampire would always create a new vampire by drinking their blood.

Vampire: The Masquerade is completely believable, though I don't believe it a bit :P

I don't get it...I don't believe in ghosts, for example, but I thought the whole point of the supernatural was that the laws of nature didn't apply to it. So in theory you can't "prove" the supernatural to not exist using the laws of science. I hope the good doctor didn't invest too much time in this pet project. :rolleyes:

I don't like the assumption that a vampire would always create a new vampire by drinking their blood.

Vampire: The Masquerade is completely believable, though I don't believe it a bit :P

Meh. They could drink animal blood and keep from turning anyone into vamps. Or they could hibernate every few months for years to conserve energy or something. Lots of semilogical explanations.

I don't like the assumption that a vampire would always create a new vampire by drinking their blood.

Vampire: The Masquerade is completely believable, though I don't believe it a bit :P

There are legends that say that an exchange of blood is required.

Meh. They could drink animal blood and keep from turning anyone into vamps. Or they could hibernate every few months for years to conserve energy or something. Lots of semilogical explanations.

Well generally in communities which used to beleive in vampires if you died in mysterious circumstances they'd nail you to the bottom of the coffin with a wooden stake.

Well generally in communities which used to beleive in vampires if you died in mysterious circumstances they'd nail you to the bottom of the coffin with a wooden stake.

I never understood the wooden part. Why not a metal stake? Seems it would be more effective considering you could hammer it in harder.

flown an airplane alone
rode a motorcycle cross country Me neither
given birth to a male child Me neither
graduated college Did that
danced naked during an election year Did that
cut off my own toes Nope
dyed my hair grey Put powder in it for a costume but dyed? no
peirced my genitals *shudder*

lots of stuff I haven't done.

I grew up in a house that had a lot of weird stuff happen, mostly in my room because this guy killed himself in there. I chalk 90% of it up to group hysteria, and 10% to weird EM fields. ;)


true, you can't prove a negative, everyone knows that.

:cool:

I never understood the wooden part. Why not a metal stake? Seems it would be more effective considering you could hammer it in harder.

It was probably the thing most easily available at the time but became part of the legand

It was probably the thing most easily available at the time but became part of the legand

Also, people often associate vampires with Satan and hell and devil-worship and such, but I wonder if the original legend even had them incorporated into any religion at all.

There are legends that say that an exchange of blood is required.

The reason I brought up V:TM, is because in it, to sire a vampire, you have to drink all of the blood of the person, then give the person some of your own blood. Just drinking, some or all, won't do it.

And making more vampires without the permission of a prince is grounds for killing both the vampire and its created vampire.

I think you're an idiot if you believe in crap like ghosts or vampires.

RPGs =/= reality.

RPGs =/= Reality, true. However, most of that stuff was picked from different versions of the vampire mythology. Besides, I think the point was that White Wolf had been able to think of an explanation for mankind not being wiped out by blood-suckers, so why can't scientists? That being said, I do not believe in vampires, zombies, werewolves, or anything like that.

Science bites myth of vampires, ghosts...

also demonstrates that heavy and light objects fall at same rate in vacuum

danced naked during an election year
Why on earth not? ;)


The reason I brought up V:TM, is because in it, to sire a vampire, you have to drink all of the blood of the person, then give the person some of your own blood. Just drinking, some or all, won't do it.
That's also the method Anne Rice describes in her Vampire Chronicles.

Why on earth not? ;)

I don't know, I just never have.

I don't know, I just never have.
Ever danced naked when it's not an election year?

Vampires, werewwolves, ghosts. I have the same belief in them as Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
I suppose that when you get to old to believe in one you switch to the other. It's all silly.

next thing going to be said by him is he worked out the bermude triangle and big foot

Ever danced naked when it's not an election year?

well, yeah! everyone does!

Yeah, whatever. All I know is that I'm not going to be the one yelling, "No! Thats scientifically impossible!" as a horde of zombies comes running at me.

I hate Medium and I've never seen Ghost Whisperer but I don't think I'd like it either.

Zombies still make good cannon fodder in horror movies though.:D

Hypothesis: ghosts have a material body, but also possess the ability to control the vibrations of that body, such that they can chose to physically interact with other material things or to pass through them by realigning their constituent parts.

i think you'd still have issues with electromagnetic interactions. ghosts would probably have to be based around some form of dark matter that just interacts differently than normal matter.

Wasn't it supposed to be part of Dracula's deal with the town he ruled that he had to kill all his victims after consuming them, to prevent this very scenario from occuring?

Killing the victims is what causes them to rise as vampires, in traditional myths. Blood drinking wasn't what turned people into vampires. Getting their life force drained was.

I don't know; I imagine if a ghost were the spirit of a dead being then they could conceivably manipulate the physical world and then simply become incorporeal when they wanted to do things that violate the rules of physics. However, isn't it possible to walk through walls if certain things happen on the quantum level? It's infinitesimally small but nonzero, so maybe ghosts are just capable of manipulating the physical world at that level. It's strange, but the very nature of the supernatural is, after all, to be supernatural.


But then again, what kind of ghost would want to haunt a place for years, decades, or even centuries? If you're a conscious spirit, why wouldn't you just stay in the afterlife or be reborn in to someone else? It seems kind of lousy to be stuck on Earth when you can pretty much do whatever since you're not constrained by the laws of physics. Of course, I personally don't know what ghosts are; I think these events do happen, but what exactly caused them is a mystery. Maybe it's a punishment or a curse...

Maybe even spirits need a break from the afterlife...I'm sure it's great and all, but it has to be dull once in a while. Those spirits are still conscious beings, after all I guess by being a ghost you get the benefits of being on Earth without the drawbacks of a mortal body. I don't know, though...the afterlife is hopefully 70 or more years away. Although living a really long time might be nice too, maybe 500 years or so...however, I'd have to also possess longevity and have my friends/family alive with me. I'm not exactly dying to get in yet (bad pun ftw).

i think you'd still have issues with electromagnetic interactions. ghosts would probably have to be based around some form of dark matter that just interacts differently than normal matter.

I'm wondering if ghosts are really just beings capable of manipulating the physical world at a higher state than us.

Maybe that's what the soul really is; our physical bodies are the machines through which the spirit operates, and the only way the soul can interact with the physical world is through a physical body. In other words, all the soul can interact with is with what its body has. It provides an interesting view on the mind-body problem...it makes both eliminative materialism and a soul possible, and does account for things like brain damage and the like.

After all, if a computer's hard drive is damaged it won't run properly no matter who the operator is.

But then again, what kind of ghost would want to haunt a place for years, decades, or even centuries?

Maybe they enjoy their soap operas.

Maybe they enjoy their soap operas.

Maybe. I'm convinced the afterlife is just a somewhat better version of the physical world...I bet ghosts just get bored and decide to see what's happening on Earth, but since they don't have the same perception of time they end up staying for 600 years instead of 60 minutes. When people see them, they're really just getting up to go get a Coke or something and don't even notice the people.

And as Arthais says, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And yes, the burden is on the person claiming a paranormal event or phenomenon to prove it, not for skeptics to disprove it.


That is true if you have one observer of a singular event.

On the other hand there have been literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of claimed sightings of ghosts made over many many centuries. Even if 3/4 of these claims are lies conspiracies and halucinations that leaves 1/4 of them as genuinely observed "somethings". That is a lot of evidence to just sweep under a carpet and dismiss by telling the observer to "prove it" when the observers dont even know exactly what they've seen or how exactly they might prove it to your satisfaction in a way that fits our current grasp of the workings of reality.

I don't like the assumption that a vampire would always create a new vampire by drinking their blood.

Vampire: The Masquerade is completely believable, though I don't believe it a bit :P
Malkavians FTW!
That is true if you have one observer of a singular event.

On the other hand there have been literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of claimed sightings of ghosts made over many many centuries. Even if 3/4 of these claims are lies conspiracies and halucinations that leaves 1/4 of them as genuinely observed "somethings". That is a lot of evidence to just sweep under a carpet and dismiss by telling the observer to "prove it" when the observers dont even know exactly what they've seen or how exactly they might prove it to your satisfaction in a way that fits our current grasp of the workings of reality.

Indeed. I'm sure there is a huge amount of people who have seen something they cannot explain and would greatly like to.

On the other hand there have been literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of claimed sightings of ghosts made over many many centuries. Even if 3/4 of these claims are lies conspiracies and halucinations that leaves 1/4 of them as genuinely observed "somethings". That is a lot of evidence to just sweep under a carpet and dismiss by telling the observer to "prove it" when the observers dont even know exactly what they've seen or how exactly they might prove it to your satisfaction in a way that fits our current grasp of the workings of reality.

That's true. I mean, we're talking events that have almost universal historical and contemporary documentation and which show some striking cross-cultural similarities, even between temporally disparate civilizations. I think the sheer body of evidence necessitates more investigation than simply demanding proof or discarding it. We may need to develop the tools to investigate it before we can investigate it.

Remember, you can only prove things if you have the tools to prove them; our primitive scientific instruments are far from capable of discerning all of the secrets of our planet, let alone those of the universe or the paranormal. I think we might be too willing to accept what we currently know as the be-all and all and sweep those things that don't fit under the rug.

The simple fact is that we don't know everything, and we are nowhere near capable of reducing phenomena to physical causes, if that can be done at all. Maybe we need to investigate these things to see if we can find proof, rather than just eliminating them because we have no falsifiable proof.

Killing the victims is what causes them to rise as vampires, in traditional myths. Blood drinking wasn't what turned people into vampires. Getting their life force drained was.
In retrospect, I only remember reading about it in the prequel that some crazy woman wrote to Dracula, but, in said prequel, the good Count was required by oath to decapitate all his victims after he was through and scatter their remains.

Yea. I watched the episode when they went to the OK Corral in Arizona. They decide to cancel because it was too windy. I really like the way T.A.P.S does their investigation. Really, they actually do try to disprove the hauntings rather than prove one. If anyone can prove that ghost are real, it's T.A.P.S.

http://www.the-atlantic-paranormal-society.com/
We can trust the guys at TAPS because they're plumbers. If anybody can figure out what's making that noise or where that smell is coming from, it's a plumber. Working for Roto-Rooter must be the best paranormal investigation training in the world.

I don't get it...I don't believe in ghosts, for example, but I thought the whole point of the supernatural was that the laws of nature didn't apply to it. So in theory you can't "prove" the supernatural to not exist using the laws of science. I hope the good doctor didn't invest too much time in this pet project. :rolleyes:
Oh, I'm sure he had a grant.

I never understood the wooden part. Why not a metal stake? Seems it would be more effective considering you could hammer it in harder.
Wood is cheaper. Plus, there's magic involved. In many parts of the world, only certain kinds of wood will do.

We can trust the guys at TAPS because they're plumbers. If anybody can figure out what's making that noise or where that smell is coming from, it's a plumber. Working for Roto-Rooter must be the best paranormal investigation training in the world.

I imagine you get a lot of experience with the acoustics and wiring of a house working with plumbing...I could see it being pretty beneficial.

Also, people often associate vampires with Satan and hell and devil-worship and such, but I wonder if the original legend even had them incorporated into any religion at all.
At the risk of sounding like a total vamp-nerd, I've actually studied this because I write horror stories and I like to base them on the real folklore, not on that crappy Victorian nonsense.

Here's the deal with vampires:

1) Many cultures have a myth about a supernatual critter that drinks the blood or drains the life of living creatures, both people and animals. In some places, these are a kind of demon or evil spirit. In many places, particularly in Asia, these are "hungry ghosts," spirits of the dead who have no grave and no one to remember them and take care of them. China has a whole festival dedicated to placating them. It involves buns and is quite entertaining. The vampires we know from pop culture come from Europe via Bram Stoker and are based in ancient European ancestor worship. In particular, Eastern European cultures were very big on this, and the word "vampire" comes from the Slavic languages.

2) The Slavic vampire is associated with ancient Slavic ancestor worship. This was the primary form of religion among the pagan Slavs and is still a strong influence in traditional Slavic culture to this day.

3) The Slavic vampire is what happens when a dead spirit "goes wrong" somehow. Like its Asian counterparts, it is a ghost, but rather than wandering, the Slavic vampire either cannot or refuses to let go of its physical remains. The belief was that the spirit would not be completely free of this world until the body was completely decomposed. A vampire occurs when something happens that disturbs the natural process of decomposition of the body. Either the body fails to decay and the spirit cannot leave, or the spirit refuses to leave and tries to keep the body whole by feeding it with the blood of living things.

4) Any dead person can become a vampire. No magic is necessary. All you have to do is die. The Slavs believed that the dead remained actively interested in the doings of their descendants, and routinely visited them in this world in the form of ghosts or spirits. But it is the nature of death to diminish life, so hanging around with the dead is not a healthy thing to do. It's not a question of whether they mean to be evil or not. It's just the way things are. Even the ghosts of saints can have a vampiric, death-spreading effect.

5) However, even though all dead people can be vampires, the vampire only becomes a problem when he fails to leave this world and haunts the living, spreading death among them. This is thought to happen if, as said above, the person's body fails to decompose, or if the person died under mysterious or terrible circumstances, or if the person was evil, or very powerful, or even just very famous (even for good things!) during his life.

6) The wooden stakes do not kill the vampire, but merely pin it to the ground so it cannot leave its grave to haunt people until its body is completely decomposed. This is usually done to prevent vampire hauntings, if trouble is expected for some reason.

7) If a vampire haunting is already believed to be happening (usually during epidemics), then the suspected vampire must be exorcised by being dug up and whatever is left intact of its body being destroyed, preferably by fire. Sometimes the whole body must be destroyed, sometimes just the heart or other major organs because this is where the soul is believed to be. The idea is to destroy the body so the soul will move on.

8) Interestingly, to cure people who are believed to be dying from vampire-induced illnesses, they must be fed either the boiled heart or cooked blood of the vampire's body, and this was believed to break the curse of the dead and cure the disease caused by the dead.

For more on this, I recommend Vampires, Burial and Death: Folklore and Reality by Paul Barber, Fowler Museum of Cultural History, UCLA. His thesis is that ancient beliefs about how vampires work were based on accurate observations of the processes of death and decomposition but without the science to understand what was really happening. He goes into extensive detail about those processes, so don't read it on a full stomach.

I imagine you get a lot of experience with the acoustics and wiring of a house working with plumbing...I could see it being pretty beneficial.
Definitely. You'd be surprised, too, at the weird effects old pipes can have, especially in the winter time or on windy nights, and at how old buildings can act up when the temperature and humidity levels are shifting about. I'll take those guys from TAPS as ghosthunters any day of the week over those gullible rubes on the BBC show "Most Haunted." That's my second favorite ghosthunting show. I just love watching them scream and curse and cry every time some piece of dried out wood creaks in a 700-year-old building in freaking dripping wet Britain.

Maybe. I'm convinced the afterlife is just a somewhat better version of the physical world...I bet ghosts just get bored and decide to see what's happening on Earth, but since they don't have the same perception of time they end up staying for 600 years instead of 60 minutes. When people see them, they're really just getting up to go get a Coke or something and don't even notice the people.
Cool notion. :cool:

Definitely. You'd be surprised, too, at the weird effects old pipes can have, especially in the winter time or on windy nights, and at how old buildings can act up when the temperature and humidity levels are shifting about. I'll take those guys from TAPS as ghosthunters any day of the week over those gullible rubes on the BBC show "Most Haunted." That's my second favorite ghosthunting show. I just love watching them scream and curse and cry every time some piece of dried out wood creaks in a 700-year-old building in freaking dripping wet Britain.

That show makes me want to go on a murdering rampage of genocidal proportions, personally snapping the necks of any moron stupid enough to believe in that shit. That orange stained bastard of a "medium" on it is the crappiest actor ever, and anyone who buys into his money spinning scam should be shot.

I don't get it...I don't believe in ghosts, for example, but I thought the whole point of the supernatural was that the laws of nature didn't apply to it. So in theory you can't "prove" the supernatural to not exist using the laws of science. I hope the good doctor didn't invest too much time in this pet project. :rolleyes:

You can't prove new theorys with with existing laws. You might have to rewrite one or make a new one. Remember, everyone use to think that the universe revolved around Earth.. We don't know everything about life. Mabey they do exist, but if so, we will need correction to our current theorys.

That show makes me want to go on a murdering rampage of genocidal proportions, personally snapping the necks of any moron stupid enough to believe in that shit. That orange stained bastard of a "medium" on it is the crappiest actor ever, and anyone who buys into his money spinning scam should be shot.
Hey, I appreciate your zeal and all, but back off, Jack. That's good TV you're talking about.

Though it's not as good as my all-time fave, that "Scariest Places" show where they'd take the most dumb-fuck family they could find (usually Americans, yes, dammit), dress them up in unweildy ghostbuster outfits, blindfold them, twist them around a few times, and then leave them to stagger about in darkened UK castles (where people actually live and which were entirely wired for sound and video, with the crew usually set up in the kitchen). They'd get them all worked up with the most ridiculous camp stories, and then have interns hidden in the closets to flick paperclips at the walls behind the morons' backs, and we all watched the merriment ensue.

Cool notion. :cool:

I always figured that since these ghosts were once people they still retain their humanity. They probably get bored just like us, and need new experiences like we do...I think we probably continue to learn after death as well.

It would really suck if the afterlife pretty much stripped you of your humanity and left you some spirit incapable of feeling sensory information...

You can't prove new theorys with with existing laws. You might have to rewrite one or make a new one. Remember, everyone use to think that the universe revolved around Earth.. We don't know everything about life. Mabey they do exist, but if so, we will need correction to our current theorys.

That's true. I always recall Haldane's Law:

"the Universe is not only stranger than we imagine, but stranger than we can imagine."

I always figured that since these ghosts were once people they still retain their humanity. They probably get bored just like us, and need new experiences like we do...I think we probably continue to learn after death as well.

It would really suck if the afterlife pretty much stripped you of your humanity and left you some spirit incapable of feeling sensory information...
Same here. I have absolutely no idea whether there such a thing as a ghost or not -- I've yet to see any evidence that convinces me one way or another -- but I do believe that there probably is an afterlife and my instinctive notion is that it's pretty much exactly the same as this life.

Maybe its because of this dream my mom had once. She had a super shitty job at the time, and she dreamed that she died but still had to go to work because life carries on exactly the same when you're dead as when you were alive. She quit that job the next day.