NationStates Jolt Archive

Muslim cleric causes outrage in Australia

Thu Oct 26, 3:22 AM ET

SYDNEY, Australia - A senior Muslim cleric touched off outrage in Australia on Thursday for likening women who dress immodestly to meat that is left out for prey — a comment critics said excused rape.

Prime Minister John Howard called the remarks "appalling and reprehensible."

"The idea that women are to blame for rapes is preposterous," he told reporters.

A spokesman for Sheik Taj Aldin al Hilali said the cleric's comments in a sermon last month had been taken out of context in a report in The Australian newspaper. But the spokesman, Keysar Trad, didn't challenge the accuracy of the translation.

"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden, or in the park, or in the backyard without cover, and the cats come to eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat's," The Australian quoted Hilali as saying.

"The uncovered meat is the problem," he was quoted as saying. "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred," he said, referring to the head covering worn by some Muslim women.

Sex Discrimination Commissioner Pru Goward said Hilali, a high-profile cleric who has advised the government on Muslim issues, should now be rejected by the country's Islamic community.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061026/ap_on_re_au_an/australia_muslims_1

This reminds me of:


Political uproar after mufti's remarks

24.09.2004 Print article (IE & NS 4+)

An Islamic mufti in Copenhagen has sparked a political outcry after publicly declaring that women who refuse to wear headscarves are "asking for rape."


An Islamic mufti in Copenhagen, Shahid Mehdi, has sparked political outcry from the left-wing Unity List and right-wing Danish People's Party, after stating in a televised interview that women who do not wear headscarves are "asking for rape." Unity List equality spokesman Pernille Rosenkrantz-Theil has threatened to file suit for defamation against the mufti on behalf of herself and all the women of Denmark. The Danish People's Party has urged Justice Minister Lene Espersen and Integration Minister Bertel Haarder to stop the mufti's religious activities in Copenhagen.

Shahid Mehdi made his remarks in the DR2 programme "Talk to Gode," and reiterated his stance in daily newspaper B.T. The Danish People's Party and Unity List agree that Mehdi's remarks could incite Muslim men to rape Danish women by insinuating that women who did not cover their hair were undeserving of basic respect.

As a mufti, a jurist who interprets Islamic law, Shahi Mehdi is in a special position of authority as a Muslim scholar. Mehdi is currently affiliated with the Islamic Cultural Center in Copenhagen, but Pernille Rosenkrantz-Theil has urged officials to ban his teachings in Denmark due to his "reactionary view of women."

"The very idea that this man is authorised to teach young people in the Koran is ludicrous. It's like letting (Danish Nazi leader) Johnny Hansen teach the history of World War II," said Rosenkrantz-Theil.

The Socialist People's Party is urging Integration Minister Bertel Haarder to investigate whether Mehdi had violated Danish laws prohibiting foreign religious clerics from engaging in activity that poses a threat to public safety, health, decency and order.

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/82118.html

Finding the link between muslims and rapes is easy as 2+2=4, no?

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/62605.html
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/13/1026185124700.html



Edit: For those of you who read the 1st page and then the last page to write an answer:

Things like this do happen in all religions. All the christian church does is slap a few wrists and pretend like nothing has happened. Like I say there are nuts in all religions and all you seem to do is focus on the muslim nuts. I don't deny they don't exist I just accept that

a) They are the minority

b) All religions have them

Ok, let's compare a related issue. Violence against women. I guess noone will deny this has a link with rapes.

Norway:


"This is Norway today. This is a reality experienced by thousands of women in the privacy of their own homes. One out of six Norwegian women becomes a victim of men’s violence at one time in their life -- one out of six -- a disastrous number! This is our greatest human rights challenge. This is why Amnesty is taking action."

http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGEUR362042004

1 out of 6 = 17%

Turkey:


90% of women are subjected to violance by their bf's or husbands in Turkey


http://www.omct.org/pdf/vaw/publications/2003/eng_2003_09_turkey.pdf

I see you don't remember the endless, hot-headed threads a while ago when a good few NSers here argued that date-rape shouldn't be a crime, and that women dressing "provocatively" were at least in part to blame for getting raped....

I guess that Mufti is knocking on open doors for many in the West.

He's also apologised for it.

Yes, we all know that only muslims have that opinion.

And people wonder why there are racial tensions in Australia with the muslim community.

He later backtracked saying he was talking about adultery, but that does not really fit as he compalined that men were given long prison sentences for things that 'were not their fault' - which do not happen for adultery.

Asshole.

It's grossly insulting to men alsoo - implying they have no control. And a dangerous statement to make given a spate of gang rapes last year by Muslim youths of western women.

Does his statement count as inciting violence or racial hatred? Is he protected by freedom of speech?

I see you don't remember the endless, hot-headed threads a while ago when a good few NSers here argued that date-rape shouldn't be a crime, and that women dressing "provocatively" were at least in part to blame for getting raped....

I guess that Mufti is knocking on open doors for many in the West.

The distinction is the definition of "provocatively" though.

The distinction is the definition of "provocatively" though.

I remember that "not wearing a bra" was categorised as provocative by some back then.
Don't get me wrong here... I argued against them back then, and I'd argue against this religious leader now. He's not here, though, and I know that this attitude is very much the same among Muslim and Christian men. Hell, even among some women!

I see you don't remember the endless, hot-headed threads a while ago when a good few NSers here argued that date-rape shouldn't be a crime, and that women dressing "provocatively" were at least in part to blame for getting raped....

I guess that Mufti is knocking on open doors for many in the West.

:( :( :( :(

It's a tragic state in the west when we condem shira (spelling) law for requireing 4 male witnesses for rape when we only convict 5% of rapists, and many people complain most of those should not even be crimes.

Anyone who feels the women is to blame for their rape is admitting to being incapeable of reason and thought and is admitting to being like a reckless animal, and should be neutered accordingly.

*dons flame-retardant suit*
*Writes Extremely Flammable! No naked flamess on thread*

I remember that "not wearing a bra" was categorised as provocative by some back then.
Don't get me wrong here... I argued against them back then, and I'd argue against this religious leader now. He's not here, though, and I know that this attitude is very much the same among Muslim and Christian men. Hell, even among some women!


women who refuse to wear headscarves are "asking for rape."


:rolleyes: Ok...

Yes, we all know that only muslims have that opinion.
LOL

http://www.submission.org/women/rape.html

Rape is a sexual, social, and violent crime that has been continuously on the rise as the morals of the society decline and the religious values deteriorate. The religion of Submission (Islam in Arabic), like all the monotheistic religions, looks down with disgrace on all kinds of crimes, including of course sexual crimes. Rape, being a combination of several kinds of crimes wrapped in one name is therefore, one of the worst.
As we all know, rape is different than adultery or fornication where there is a consensual agreement on having sex. It is also different than prostitution where sex out of marriage is paid for. Rape involves an attempt to empower a weaker or a threatened person to accept unwillingly the sexual advance of the attacker. Most sociologists look at rape as a violent crime based on oppression of another person. God in the Quran , condemns all the elements that constitute the crime of rape, i.e. Sex, violence, and oppression.

God strongly condemns any kind of sexual relationships out side of marriage


Every religion is against rape. Just because some crackpot decides to blame the victim istead of the perpatraitor doesn't mean ALL of them do. Thats like saying the KKK represent all of christianity.(To the OP) Please stop trying to peddle your anti muslim agenda, its getting old

He's also apologised for it.
It's not sincere. He's only apologised because of the uproar.

This guy should be deported.

I do always say "They're asking for it.", if they dress something like short-shorts, midriff exposed, shoulder strap kind of thing, even when it's winter. I never say they're the cause of it.

:( :( :( :(

It's a tragic state in the west when we condem shira (spelling) law for requireing 4 male witnesses for rape when we only convict 5% of rapists, and many people complain most of those should not even be crimes.

Anyone who feels the women is to blame for their rape is admitting to being incapeable of reason and thought and is admitting to being like a reckless animal, and should be neutered accordingly.

The point is tho, I believe, the ratio of muslims who believe women deserve rape is higher than the ration of westerners.

The point is tho, I believe, the ratio of muslims who believe women deserve rape is higher than the ration of westerners.

Whats your point? What are you getting at? I don't understand why you keep making threads like this condeming muslims?

Is it to promote anti-imigration laws? Is it more then that?

The point is tho, I believe, the ratio of muslims who believe women deserve rape is higher than the ration of westerners.

I've only got personal experience to go by, and that leads me to think that this isn't the case. However, if you do have data on it, don't be shy to post it.

I see you don't remember the endless, hot-headed threads a while ago when a good few NSers here argued that date-rape shouldn't be a crime, and that women dressing "provocatively" were at least in part to blame for getting raped....

Yup. I went back and forth with numerous non-Muslim posters here who insisted that if a girl wears a short skirt or a tight tee-shirt then she has given up the right to say "no." They insisted that guys have the right to touch women who dress certain ways even if the women don't like it and don't want it. They insisted that such harlots don't have the right to complain when men harass, threaten, or assault them.

Treating women like meat is not unique to Islam. It's very, very popular in America. It's just that here the rapists try to use terms like "empowerment" and "choice" to justify their rapes. They insist that women "choose" to be abused because they dressed that way. They insist that women are "empowered" here in the US, which means that nothing men do to women can ever be the fault of the MEN. They insist that women have it so good here (why, we let them vote and everything!!!) that women's complaints about assault, rape, and abuse are silly and petty.

It's just like the abusive asshole who insists that he's a good guy because he only gave his girlfriend a black eye. Some bitches get their arms broke, but he's nicer than that so she oughta be thankful.

LOL

http://www.submission.org/women/rape.html



Every religion is against rape. Just because some crackpot decides to blame the victim istead of the perpatraitor doesn't mean ALL of them do. Thats like saying the KKK represent all of christianity.(To the OP) Please stop trying to peddle your anti muslim agenda, its getting old

What's getting old is that people like you, being unable to understand that no christian or jewish leaders would make such statements as the two above examples. Not to mention that muslims get away with lots of provacative statements like this one or "behead anyone who insults islam" example in London, but when someone says something bad about Islam, they go into hiding because of death threats, not to mention world wide protests.

I've only got personal experience to go by, and that leads me to think that this isn't the case. However, if you do have data on it, don't be shy to post it.

I've got personal experience as well. For imperfect data, read the links at the OP.

What's getting old is that people like you, being unable to understand that no christian or jewish leaders would make such statements as the two above examples. Not to mention that muslims get away with lots of provacative statements like this one or "behead anyone who insults islam" example in London, but when someone says something bad about Islam, they go into hiding because of death threats, not to mention world wide protests.

No? I distincly remember a Catholic priest back home in Germany preaching something along those lines.... but since Catholics are old news, it never made the papers.

It's not sincere. He's only apologised because of the uproar.

This guy should be deported.

Why? In Australia there is such a thing a freedom of speech. As disgusting as what he said is, it is nonetheless a right and freedom to do so, just as some say girls wearing miniskirts invites rape.

I've got personal experience as well. For imperfect data, read the links at the OP.

So you've got one Muslim.
And already one non-Muslim in this very thread who says "they're asking for it", self-confessed.

The point is tho, I believe, the ratio of muslims who believe women deserve rape is higher than the ration of westerners.

you got a source for that. i don't think that's true at all.

Whats your point? What are you getting at? I don't understand why you keep making threads like this condeming muslims?

Is it to promote anti-imigration laws? Is it more then that?

I guess I'm venting. This is hardly a RL conversation topic I'd make.

I do always say "They're asking for it.", if they dress something like short-shorts, midriff exposed, shoulder strap kind of thing, even when it's winter. I never say they're the cause of it.

If "it" is a nasty chill, then yes.
Otherwise, I've successfully not raped anyone wearing clothing like that for the last 25 years and I'm not desperately likely to start now... Although I am guilty of looking at them, rolling my eyes and thinking "she'll catch her death of cold".

I do always say "They're asking for it.", if they dress something like short-shorts, midriff exposed, shoulder strap kind of thing, even when it's winter. I never say they're the cause of it.

You mean, they are crying out: "Please rape me!"?!

Sorry, I know some people with the same opinion - and they all aren't Muslims. And I find it disgusting to accuse the victims. Rational humans shouldn't think with their sexual instincts!

So you've got one Muslim.
And already one non-Muslim in this very thread who says "they're asking for it", self-confessed.

If you think there are only two links in the article, you gotta get your eyes checked.

The point is tho, I believe, the ratio of muslims who believe women deserve rape is higher than the ration of westerners.
And the statistical study you have to back this up is....?

Oh, there it is! Right up your butt where you pull all your 'stats' n 'facts'!

No? I distincly remember a Catholic priest back home in Germany preaching something along those lines.... but since Catholics are old news, it never made the papers.

No links then huh?

I guess I'm venting. This is hardly a RL conversation topic I'd make.

It just seems that this is the only topic you tend to make posts about.

Why? In Australia there is such a thing a freedom of speech. As disgusting as what he said is, it is nonetheless a right and freedom to do so, just as some say girls wearing miniskirts invites rape.
I can't speak for the Aussies but I know that if someone like him said something like that in this country, I'd want him deported. He's born in Egypt, so just send him back there. If he has citizenship, strip it. I don't see why scum like that should be given free reign.

No links then huh?

For the village priest in Memmelsdorf??? Hardly.

I can't speak for the Aussies but I know that if someone like him said something like that in this country, I'd want him deported. He's born in Egypt, so just send him back there. If he has citizenship, strip it. I don't see why scum like that should be given free reign.

And what do you do when someone born in, say, Stowmarket says something similar?

If "it" is a nasty chill, then yes.
Otherwise, I've successfully not raped anyone wearing clothing like that for the last 25 years and I'm not desperately likely to start now... Although I am guilty of looking at them, rolling my eyes and thinking "she'll catch her death of cold".
The entire "they're asking for it" line of thinking is pathetic.

What they're "asking for" is for other people to behave as if they've completed kindergarten. You know, that place where you learnt to keep your hands to yourselves?

It doesn't matter what she's wearing, she's not "asking for" anybody to touch her, harass her, or abuse her.

If some other person happens to be a pathetic twit who can't master basic rules of human conduct that are easily understood by toddlers, that's not her fault. That's the twit's fault. And HE is asking to be treated like the infant he is. He should be put in Time Out until he learns to control himself.

It just seems that this is the only topic you tend to make posts about.

So?

For the village priest in Memmelsdorf??? Hardly.

Ahh...you are comparing village priests with country muslim leaders.

Ahh...you are comparing village priests with country muslim leaders.

Leaders? Where does it say that? And I would assume that village priests have a far more direct impact on the minds of their congregation than "country leaders" have.

The distinction is the definition of "provocatively" though.

A man or woman ought to be able to fuck someone in the middle of the street, say no to some stranger trying to butt in and have it be respected. If she's only 'dressed like a slut', well, that's not a good enough reason to suggest she might of meant otherwise.

No always means no. Unless banana means no, and you agreed beforehand on it.

I am just wondering why this little piece of shit thinks men are animals who can't control themselves?

I can't speak for the Aussies but I know that if someone like him said something like that in this country, I'd want him deported. He's born in Egypt, so just send him back there. If he has citizenship, strip it. I don't see why scum like that should be given free reign.

So, would you deport someone who said women with miniskirts were 'asking for it?'

The entire "they're asking for it" line of thinking is pathetic.

[SNIP for brevity]

If some other person happens to be a pathetic twit who can't master basic rules of human conduct that are easily understood by toddlers, that's not her fault. That's the twit's fault. And HE is asking to be treated like the infant he is. He should be put in Time Out until he learns to control himself.

Indeed.
Although a knee to the bollocks works better.

And what do you do when someone born in, say, Stowmarket says something similar?
Unfortunately there's not much you can do in those cases. If they're born abroad there is always somewhere to send them to. I'd sooner see action taken in some cases than none at all.

A man or woman ought to be able to fuck someone in the middle of the street, say no to some stranger trying to butt in and have it be respected. If she's only 'dressed like a slut', well, that's not a good enough reason to suggest she might of meant otherwise.

No always means no. Unless banana means no, and you agreed beforehand on it.

I agree. Unfortunately that's not a position everyone could have evolved to yet.

The entire "they're asking for it" line of thinking is pathetic.


I think you have misunderstood what the term "they're asking for it" means. It doesn't literally mean they want people to rape them, anyone should know that. It's just a more provacative way of saying that if you wear clothes like that, you are more at risk.

Leaders? Where does it say that? And I would assume that village priests have a far more direct impact on the minds of their congregation than "country leaders" have.

"As a mufti, a jurist who interprets Islamic law, Shahi Mehdi is in a special position of authority as a Muslim scholar."


You are comparing *this* with a village priest?

I fail to see how this is to blame on the 'muslim-ness' of the orator, more than, say, on his patriachism. Could someone please enlighten me?
Until then, I prefer to stick to the old 'most people are assholes' instead of jumping on the flashy, brightly lit bandwagon of 'muslims are uncivilized towel-heads', thank you very much.

"As a mufti, a jurist who interprets Islamic law, Shahi Mehdi is in a special position of authority as a Muslim scholar."


You are comparing *this* with a village priest?

So a village priest is not interpreting scripture? He gets his sermons written and printed byhis bishop???

So?

So there must be something more behind it, it cannot just be coincedence that all your threads are about this sort of thing.

What's getting old is that people like you, being unable to understand that no christian or jewish leaders would make such statements as the two above examples. Not to mention that muslims get away with lots of provacative statements like this one or "behead anyone who insults islam" example in London, but when someone says something bad about Islam, they go into hiding because of death threats, not to mention world wide protests.

Things like this do happen in all religions. All the christian church does is slap a few wrists and pretend like nothing has happened. Like I say there are nuts in all religions and all you seem to do is focus on the muslim nuts. I don't deny they don't exist I just accept that

a) They are the minority

b) All religions have them

So there must be something more behind it, it cannot just be coincedence that all your threads are about this sort of thing.

He might be a Muslim in denial. Still in the closet, so to speak. ;)

I fail to see how this is to blame on the 'muslim-ness' of the orator, more than, say, on his patriachism. Could someone please enlighten me?
Until then, I prefer to stick to the old 'most people are assholes' instead of jumping on the flashy, brightly lit bandwagon of 'muslims are uncivilized towel-heads', thank you very much.

Exactly. As far as I am concerned, a person said women were to blame for rapes. Despite being quite disgusting, he has the right to say it. The fact he is a muslim is neither here nor there, as other posters have put it, other non-muslims have said things to the same effect.

I fail to see how this is to blame on the 'muslim-ness' of the orator, more than, say, on his patriachism. Could someone please enlighten me?
Until then, I prefer to stick to the old 'most people are assholes' instead of jumping on the flashy, brightly lit bandwagon of 'muslims are uncivilized towel-heads', thank you very much.

Well, you gotta connect this kind of statements with the fact that women are treated much much worse in Islamic world than in the West.

Well, you gotta connect this kind of statements with the fact that women are treated much much worse in Islamic world than in the West.

No you don't.

I think you have misunderstood what the term "they're asking for it" means. It doesn't literally mean they want people to rape them, anyone should know that. It's just a more provacative way of saying that if you wear clothes like that, you are more at risk.
And, as hard as this may be for some people to accept, wearing a short skirt does not actually increase the chances of being raped.

The vast majority of rapes are committed by men who know the woman in question. They are relatives or lovers or friends. They aren't raping because the bitch was dressed for sex, they're raping because they want to rape somebody and she was convenient. It's about power and humiliation, not sex. The sex is just the way to demonstrate what they think is dominance and power (though it really just marks them as a pathetic loser).

Countless studies have shown that attractiveness doesn't correlate with likelihood of being raped. Old women get raped, and tiny little girls get raped. "Ugly" women get raped. Fat women, skinny women, tall women, short women. Hotties get raped, and non-hotties get raped. Girls get raped when they dress "sexy," and they get raped when they're in the frumpiest clothes they own.

It is a total myth that being "sexy" increases a woman's chance of getting raped. And it's a myth that is perpetuated by men who want to have an excuse for harassing and abusing women. They can hide behind their supposed concern for women's welfare, and pretend like they're just an honest chap pointing out that the poor dears are asking for something bad to happen.

Sorry, but no. If they actually were interested in helping or protecting their fellow human beings, they'd trouble themselves to learn a little bit about the real causes of rape, and the real risk factors that women should worry about.

So there must be something more behind it, it cannot just be coincedence that all your threads are about this sort of thing.

Maybe I'm not interested at talking about much of the other topics online because I already talk about them in RL?

Well, you gotta connect this kind of statements with the fact that women are treated much much worse in Islamic world than in the West.

I personally think it's up to the women in the Islamic world to change that, then.
Again, if that guy was here, I'd give him an earful for what he said. But I would do the exact same with every other little would-be-macho here and in RL.

Finding the link between muslims and rapes is easy as 2+2=4, no?
No.


http://www.cphpost.dk/get/62605.html

You keep using this link. It does not mean what you think it means...

Nor does it say what you think it says.
But we've been through that a gazillion times, and it's been so thoroughly debunked as an arguement against muslims that I can't be arsed to do it once more.

And, as hard as this may be for some people to accept, wearing a short skirt does not actually increase the chances of being raped.

The vast majority of rapes are committed by men who know the woman in question. They are relatives or lovers or friends. They aren't raping because the bitch was dressed for sex, they're raping because they want to rape somebody and she was convenient. It's about power and humiliation, not sex. The sex is just the way to demonstrate what they think is dominance and power (though it really just marks them as a pathetic loser).

Countless studies have shown that attractiveness doesn't correlate with likelihood of being raped. Old women get raped, and tiny little girls get raped. "Ugly" women get raped. Fat women, skinny women, tall women, short women. Hotties get raped, and non-hotties get raped. Girls get raped when they dress "sexy," and they get raped when they're in the frumpiest clothes they own.

It is a total myth that being "sexy" increases a woman's chance of getting raped. And it's a myth that is perpetuated by men who want to have an excuse for harassing and abusing women. They can hide behind their supposed concern for women's welfare, and pretend like they're just an honest chap pointing out that the poor dears are asking for something bad to happen.

Sorry, but no. If they actually were interested in helping or protecting their fellow human beings, they'd trouble themselves to learn a little bit about the real causes of rape, and the real risk factors that women should worry about.

I agree with you mostly. However, what I disagree with is when people try to compare that to saying that women who do that deserve to get raped.

Things like this do happen in all religions. All the christian church does is slap a few wrists and pretend like nothing has happened. Like I say there are nuts in all religions and all you seem to do is focus on the muslim nuts. I don't deny they don't exist I just accept that

a) They are the minority

b) All religions have them

Ok, let's compare a related issue. Violence against women. I guess noone will deny this has a link with rapes.

Norway:


"This is Norway today. This is a reality experienced by thousands of women in the privacy of their own homes. One out of six Norwegian women becomes a victim of men’s violence at one time in their life -- one out of six -- a disastrous number! This is our greatest human rights challenge. This is why Amnesty is taking action."

http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGEUR362042004

1 out of 6 = 17%

Turkey:


90% of women are subjected to violance by their bf's or husbands in Turkey


http://www.omct.org/pdf/vaw/publications/2003/eng_2003_09_turkey.pdf

No.



You keep using this link. It does not mean what you think it means...

Nor does it say what you think it says.
But we've been through that a gazillion times, and it's been so thoroughly debunked as an arguement against muslims that I can't be arsed to do it once more.

That's subjective. Especially considering that you had expected me to proove 100% which is rather stupid given the fact that most scientific facts we use today havent been proven 100%.

Maybe I'm not interested at talking about much of the other topics online because I already talk about them in RL?

I don't believe you.

I dunno....I go away for one week and find that Ny Nordland has been upgraded to Nordligmark

At least the content of the threads remain the same:(

That's subjective. Especially considering that you had expected me to proove 100% which is rather stupid given the fact that most scientific facts we use today havent been proven 100%.

I have no idea what you're talking about...

If "it" is a nasty chill, then yes.
Otherwise, I've successfully not raped anyone wearing clothing like that for the last 25 years and I'm not desperately likely to start now... Although I am guilty of looking at them, rolling my eyes and thinking "she'll catch her death of cold".

I always think that too. :p

There have been times where I've been out at night in the middle of winter, and you see these girls wandering about with nothing on but a belt round the tits and another round the hips. Then there's me, wrapped up as tightly as possible and still freezing cold. I never work out how they don't just turn into blocks of ice on the spot.

I always think that too. :p

There have been times where I've been out at night in the middle of winter, and you see these girls wandering about with nothing on but a belt round the tits and another round the hips. Then there's me, wrapped up as tightly as possible and still freezing cold. I never work out how they don't just turn into blocks of ice on the spot.
Yeah... You'd've thought they'd've worn a coat, wouldn't you? I can understand the skimpier things for a club or party, where it's warm, but a coat for outdoors would seem The Thing To Do.
Maybe they're warmed by their inner glow. Or just so shitfaced they can't feel anything any more ;)

And, as hard as this may be for some people to accept, wearing a short skirt does not actually increase the chances of being raped.

The vast majority of rapes are committed by men who know the woman in question. They are relatives or lovers or friends. They aren't raping because the bitch was dressed for sex, they're raping because they want to rape somebody and she was convenient. It's about power and humiliation, not sex. The sex is just the way to demonstrate what they think is dominance and power (though it really just marks them as a pathetic loser).

Countless studies have shown that attractiveness doesn't correlate with likelihood of being raped. Old women get raped, and tiny little girls get raped. "Ugly" women get raped. Fat women, skinny women, tall women, short women. Hotties get raped, and non-hotties get raped. Girls get raped when they dress "sexy," and they get raped when they're in the frumpiest clothes they own.

It is a total myth that being "sexy" increases a woman's chance of getting raped. And it's a myth that is perpetuated by men who want to have an excuse for harassing and abusing women. They can hide behind their supposed concern for women's welfare, and pretend like they're just an honest chap pointing out that the poor dears are asking for something bad to happen.

Sorry, but no. If they actually were interested in helping or protecting their fellow human beings, they'd trouble themselves to learn a little bit about the real causes of rape, and the real risk factors that women should worry about.


I think "she deserved it" line comes mostly from loosers who cant get dates themselves so they get angry with girls...

I think "she deserved it" line comes mostly from loosers who cant get dates themselves so they get angry with girls...Actually, it comes from a lot of Christians that are angered that someone isn't conforming with their strict moral codes.

Actually, it comes from a lot of Christians that are angered that someone isn't conforming with their strict moral codes.

90% of this country is christian, yet we are ranked #1 country in women freedom index....
By your logic, Czech Rep. or one of those baltic countries should have scored higher.

90% of this country is christian, yet we are ranked #1 country in women freedom index....
By your logic, Czech Rep. or one of those baltic countries should have scored higher.

He said "strict Christians"... as in, obeying every letter in the book. Or trying to. And being angry at others for having more fun than they do.
You find some of them in Germany, you find more in Italy, but my guess is you'll find most of them in the US.

"Discussions" and "debates" over "who's fault it is" have been had many times on this board. And no matter what anyone has come up with to try to put the blame on women for MEN'S PERSONAL BEHAVIOUR (for which they are responsible), there has always been one or more brilliant arguments to refute such stupidity. So whatever anyone has written on this thread (and due to previous sentence, there doesn't seem to be much point in me reading it), I suggest you simply read the other threads.

But re: muslim clerics: There are dodgy "religious" "leaders" in just about every religion. Doesn't change the fact most are peaceful (except in the cults like scientology) and would never condone such a stupid statement as the said cleric made.

Oh him again, he's always getting into trouble in Australia - always saying things like that. He's on my ignore list.

He said "strict Christians"... as in, obeying every letter in the book. Or trying to. And being angry at others for having more fun than they do.
You find some of them in Germany, you find more in Italy, but my guess is you'll find most of them in the US.

I was going to say "that should be your American side talking" but I bit my tongue.

Edit: And he didnt say strict christians. He might have also implied all christians have strict moral codes and the rape comments are coming from a lot of them

Actually, it comes from a lot of Christians that are angered that someone isn't conforming with their strict moral codes.

90% of this country is christian, yet we are ranked #1 country in women freedom index....
By your logic, Czech Rep. or one of those baltic countries should have scored higher.Are you that incapable of understanding what I said or are you trying to bait me with such an idiotic assumption?

For NN:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4453820.stm

Give it up, Kiddo. There ain't no vast Muslim conspiracy here.

For NN:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4453820.stm

Give it up, Kiddo. There ain't no vast Muslim conspiracy here.

Now find such a poll in a majority muslim country for comparison.

*snip*

So what?

As long as the rapist pays the father fifty shekels everything should be fine.

This isn't a muslim thing, no...

The brits...
MORE than a third of people believe that a woman is totally or partially responsible for being raped if she has behaved in a flirtatious manner, a survey has found.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1880976,00.html
http://images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/picture/0,,245243,00.gif

The Danes...
New study reveals that 31 percent of 15-20-year-olds thing women are self to blame for being raped, if they wear skimpy clothing
http://www.cphpost.dk/get/86607.html

The Americans...
Afterwards, they said that the 22-year-old woman was bound to attract attention. She was wearing a white lace miniskirt, a green tank top, and no underwear. At knife-point, she was kidnapped from a Fort Lauderdale restaurant parking lot by a Georgia drifter and raped twice. But a jury showed little sympathy for the victim. The accused rapist was acquitted. "We all feel she asked for it [by] the way she was dressed," said the jury foreman.
http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v3n2/justworld.html

It happens all over...
(2-minute google search, links from 2005 x 2 and one from 1990)

Now find such a poll in a majority muslim country for comparison.Find such a poll in a more morally conservative Christian country in Africa for comparison.

For NN:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4453820.stm

Give it up, Kiddo. There ain't no vast Muslim conspiracy here.

I'm not taking sides here but:

1. It's a poll of only 1000 people

2. It's a poll done by amnesty international

Now find such a poll in a majority muslim country for comparison.

That's completely irrelevant. Whether their figure who believe it be 10% or 100%, it hardly makes us saints. Face it; this happens everywhere, all the time.

This isn't a muslim thing, no...

The brits...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1880976,00.html
http://images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/picture/0,,245243,00.gif

The Danes...

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/86607.html

The Americans...

http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v3n2/justworld.html

It happens all over...
(2-minute google search, links from 2005 x 2 and one from 1990)


And where is a muslim majority country?

For NN:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4453820.stm

Give it up, Kiddo. There ain't no vast Muslim conspiracy here.

This is quite obviously evidence of a mass Fith Column of Muslim agents, ready to rise up and overthrow the government.

That's completely irrelevant. Whether their figure who believe it be 10% or 100%, it hardly makes us saints. Face it; this happens everywhere, all the time.

Noone's denying that. Read the edit part in OP.

And where is a muslim majority country?NM claims that a muslim country will have a larger proportion of people claiming that the woman deserved it. He asks us to prove it for him. The hypocrisy comes in buckets.

Noone's denying that. Read the edit part in OP.

Sorry, you mean the edit part where you try to pretend that this isn't anything to do with rape at all but violence towards wives in Turkey?

I heard about this on the radio this morning. But guess what; he apologised. Yes, rather than Christians apologising for offences against Muslims, we have a Muslim cleric apologising for something he said and now regrets. Shock-horror!

http://au.news.yahoo.com/061025/2/11255.html

Guess they don't love their rape after all, do they?

I heard about this on the radio this morning. But guess what; he apologised. Yes, rather than Christians apologising for offences against Muslims, we have a Muslim cleric apologising for something he said and now regrets. Shock-horror!

http://au.news.yahoo.com/061025/2/11255.html

Guess they don't love their rape after all, do they?

I think he fully meant it as it came out the first time. He claimed later it was about adultery, but in his comparison between women and pieces of meat he mentioned unfair jail terms for 'animals' who 'eat' the 'meat. What does jail have to do with adultery.

It is very clear his origional intent, and it was a preplanned sermon, not an off-the-cuff remark that came out the wrong way - he had this sermon well planned out and knew exactly what he was doing when he did it.

I'm not taking sides here but:

1. It's a poll of only 1000 people

2. It's a poll done by amnesty international

1) That's a large enough sample to give a pretty good indication, if they selected it properly.

2) So? They have no agenda to make stupidity seem more apparent than it is...

Can I just point out that Hilali is a public joke. The bureaucratic excrement of a misguided plan to create an official government affiliated board of Islam.

Typical... from a lot of cultures I must add.

Italian culture until some 20 years ago for example (yea, I'm italian).
In Italy, rape wasn't considered a crime against a person, it was a crime against "public ethics" until then! And some people used to think that the raped women somehow "showed" they "wanted" to be raped, by a lack of modesty in dressing, for example.
I'm talking of Italy! A western, civilised, culturally christian country.

And in Italy, until the '70s, expecially in the South, there was the "honour murder" thing. That is, if the father, husband, brother, cousin, uncle (or any other man holding a "legal claim" on a woman's "honour") killed an "adultrous" woman and/or the man she was with, such murder was held (even by law!) a "lesser" sort of murder, because he killer was defending "familiy's honour".

Yeeech.:(

Typical... from a lot of cultures I must add.

Italian culture until some 20 years ago for example (yea, I'm italian).
In Italy, rape wasn't considered a crime against a person, it was a crime against "public ethics" until then! And some people used to think that the raped women somehow "showed" they "wanted" to be raped, by a lack of modesty in dressing, for example.
I'm talking of Italy! A western, civilised, culturally christian country.

And in Italy, until the '70s, expecially in the South, there was the "honour murder" thing. That is, if the father, husband, brother, cousin, uncle (or any other man holding a "legal claim" on a woman's "honour") killed an "adultrous" woman and/or the man she was with, such murder was held (even by law!) a "lesser" sort of murder, because he killer was defending "familiy's honour".

Yeeech.:(

Seems 'we' have been undermined by muslims for quite some time. There cannot possibly be another explanation for this - like one with a bit of reasoning involved.

And where is a muslim majority country?

Well, according to Unifem (http://www.unifem.org/gender_issues/violence_against_women/facts_figures.php?page=2)


In no country in the world are women safe from this type of violence. Out of ten counties surveyed in a 2005 study of the World Health Organization (WHO), more than 50 per cent of women in Bangladesh, Ethiopia, Peru and Tanzania reported having been subjected to physical or sexual violence by intimate partners, with figures reaching staggering 71 per cent in rural Ethiopia. Only in one country (Japan) did less than 20 per cent of women report incidents of domestic violence [5]. An earlier WHO study puts the number of women physically abused by their partners or ex-partners at 30 per cent in the UK, and 22 per cent in the US [6].

Based on several surveys from around the world, half of the women who die from homicides are killed by their current or former husbands or partners. Women are killed by people they know and die from guns violence, beatings and burns among numerous other forms of abuse [7]. A study conducted in Sao Paulo, Brazil reported that 13 per cent of deaths of women of reproductive age were homicides, of which 60 per cent were committed by the victims’ partners [8].

In the USA, 700,000 women are raped or sexually assaulted each year [9], with 14.8 per cent of women reporting having been raped before the age of 17 [10]. In a randomly selected study of nearly 1,200 ninth-grade students in Geneva, Switzerland, 20 per cent of girls revealed they had experienced at least one incident of physical sexual abuse [11]. This form of sexual violence also extends beyond the domestic domain.



Need I point out that of the four worst offenders listed, only Bangladesh is predominantly Muslim. Ethiopia is about 40% Muslim, Tanzania 30%, and Peru is not at all Muslim.

So what do these countries REALLY have in common?

Poverty and poor education.


And if you go look to domestic stats you can clearly see the correlation between abuse and education/income as well.

Well, you gotta connect this kind of statements with the fact that women are treated much much worse in Islamic world than in the West.

Since it seems you are trying to make some kind point here, shouldn't you be the one establishing a connection? And while we're at it, a connection that actually holds if tested?

Oh, and for the 'one village priest versus a muslim official'-thingy: Me, too, heard a lot of that stuff, growing up in a strictly catholic community, by priests as well as teachers as well as random people. Besides, could it be that if there is only this one priest saying such nonsense, while it is in no way official dogma of the oh-so-very-progressive catholic church, said catholic church would clamp down on this guy? Or is my amnesia striking once again, obliterating from my mind the tolerance shown through-out time of the catholic church re dissidents in their ranks?

This just in: Senior NSG Troll Implies All Muslims Are Evil.

No one deserves to be raped due to how they were or were not dressed. PERIOD.

And where is a muslim majority country?
My point is that it happens everywhere. Do you disagree?

Well, according to Unifem (http://www.unifem.org/gender_issues/violence_against_women/facts_figures.php?page=2)

Need I point out that of the four worst offenders listed, only Bangladesh is predominantly Muslim. Ethiopia is about 40% Muslim, Tanzania 30%, and Peru is not at all Muslim.

So what do these countries REALLY have in common?

Poverty and poor education.

And if you go look to domestic stats you can clearly see the correlation between abuse and education/income as well.

Thank you for putting it clearly. I do believe you have hit the heart of the matter :)

It's not sincere. He's only apologised because of the uproar.

This guy should be deported.
And how do you know how sincere he was?

Worth noting that he's been expelled from the Victorian Muslim council and roundly condemned by both Islamic and non-Islamic authorities nationwide. I guess it must all be some clever muslim plot to conceal their true evil, right? :rolleyes:

Since it seems you are trying to make some kind point here, shouldn't you be the one establishing a connection? And while we're at it, a connection that actually holds if tested?

Oh, and for the 'one village priest versus a muslim official'-thingy: Me, too, heard a lot of that stuff, growing up in a strictly catholic community, by priests as well as teachers as well as random people. Besides, could it be that if there is only this one priest saying such nonsense, while it is in no way official dogma of the oh-so-very-progressive catholic church, said catholic church would clamp down on this guy? Or is my amnesia striking once again, obliterating from my mind the tolerance shown through-out time of the catholic church re dissidents in their ranks?
I must suffer the same memory problem, because I grew up in a half-Protestant, half-Catholic, zero-Muslim neighborhood in NYC in the 1960s/70s and had to listen to religious leaders talking about how women should dress and behave and stay home for their own good, and how we didn't really need jobs or educations since we had men to take care of us, and how going out to work or leaving home to go to college just invited trouble because only "loose" women walked around by themselves in places where men were, and thus if we got raped it was our own fault. Yet not one of those religious leaders was a Muslim. Or maybe they were -- in disguise.

*dons flame-retardant suit*
*Writes Extremely Flammable! No naked flamess on thread*

Yes, please. No naked flames. All flames MUST wear pants, shirt, shoes and socks. A jacket and tie, while not required, are preferable.

Afterwards, they said that the 22-year-old woman was bound to attract attention. She was wearing a white lace miniskirt, a green tank top, and no underwear. At knife-point, she was kidnapped from a Fort Lauderdale restaurant parking lot by a Georgia drifter and raped twice. But a jury showed little sympathy for the victim. The accused rapist was acquitted. "We all feel she asked for it [by] the way she was dressed," said the jury foreman.


I lived in Ft. Lauderdale when this happened (early 90's) and it pissed my off to no end.

I don't care if she's running around naked, that's no excuse. She was also blamed because she'd been lured out by offering her some coke. Yeah, all drug users need to be raped.:rolleyes:

This just in: Senior NSG Troll Implies All Muslims Are Evil.

In other news: scientific study concludes that 99% of bears defecate in heavily wooded areas.

And how do you know how sincere he was?

Obviously I can't read the guy's mind, but you shouldn't believe a word he says. Usually if someone says something like that and apologies as soon as there's furore, they don't mean it. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume he doesn't mean a word he says. Particularly after his initial comments.

Well its because they are not men ! Mr. Muslim cleric dude is a bit off his rocker...or he is blaming them for not covering up and tempting men who are not likely to have any controll over themselves once they se a well turned ankle or forearm in public .:rolleyes:

Frankly, if I were a Muslim man I'd be grossly offended by this guy's comments. I'm not a beast; I'm a rational agent.

Unless he's actually arguing that Muslim men aren't rational agents. But if that's the case, I don't think they should be allowed to do things like own property or vote.

Here is my idea: That guy gets deported within the week.

What a dickhead! He always seemed like a bit of a questionable character, I think, but this just too much. "Extramarital sex" my arse...this guy was talking about judges and 65 year jail terms: he was talking about those gang rapes.

He needs to go, he can't be a public figure and say things like that.

By the way, am I the only one who is annoyed by this idea that men can't control themselves? Like "cats that will go for fresh meat"?

Here is my idea: That guy gets deported within the week.

What a dickhead! He always seemed like a bit of a questionable character, I think, but this just too much. "Extramarital sex" my arse...this guy was talking about judges and 65 year jail terms: he was talking about those gang rapes.

He needs to go, he can't be a public figure and say things like that.

By the way, am I the only one who is annoyed by this idea that men can't control themselves? Like "cats that will go for fresh meat"?
Deportation? Or are you being sarcastic? :)

By the way, am I the only one who is annoyed by this idea that men can't control themselves? Like "cats that will go for fresh meat"?
Clearly not, given that I just said that.

Clearly not, given that I just said that.
Some men cannot and should be dealt with like the animals they are. :)

What's getting old is that people like you, being unable to understand that no christian or jewish leaders would make such statements as the two above examples. Not to mention that muslims get away with lots of provacative statements like this one or "behead anyone who insults islam" example in London, but when someone says something bad about Islam, they go into hiding because of death threats, not to mention world wide protests.

Cardinal George Pell, our Catholic Archbishop? made statements very similar to these a while back. I'll see if I can find a link.

I never knew that John Howard was such a crusader for Women's rights.

And in case anyone was wondering, I use the term "crusader" with a full understanding of the irony. I can see John Howard smiting Muslims, and then cutting women's programs with the very same sword.

Deportation? Or are you being sarcastic? :)
Well, either that or a jail term for incitement to commit rape.
It's the same as with these firebrand clerics in Europe who preach jihad and stuff...it's not on. And there is two choices for them IMHO - leave or go to jail.

These guys are actually doing something wrong - when I say that people should have the right to go wherever they want, then I'm of course talking about people who aren't criminals or preaching crime.

Well, either that or a jail term for incitement to commit rape.
It's the same as with these firebrand clerics in Europe who preach jihad and stuff...it's not on. And there is two choices for them IMHO - leave or go to jail.

These guys are actually doing something wrong - when I say that people should have the right to go wherever they want, then I'm of course talking about people who aren't criminals or preaching crime.
I agree. I've always been ambivalent on the incitement bit... I suppose broadly publicized incitement should be punished though.

Here is my idea: That guy gets deported within the week.

What a dickhead! He always seemed like a bit of a questionable character, I think, but this just too much. "Extramarital sex" my arse...this guy was talking about judges and 65 year jail terms: he was talking about those gang rapes.

He needs to go, he can't be a public figure and say things like that.

By the way, am I the only one who is annoyed by this idea that men can't control themselves? Like "cats that will go for fresh meat"?

Sounds good to me!

"...women who do not wear headscarves are "asking for rape.""




Thats like saying...
- Hockey players who don't wear visors are asking for the puck to hit their eyes.
- Kids who don't wash their hands before dinner are asking for teh evul jermzzz to infect their bodies.
- or... Mating rabbits are asking for babies.

:rolleyes:

I hate extremist clerics. He needs to get sodomized by a couple of gay men for punishment. In fact whenever a cleric spouts out this sort of hatred crap a large gay man walks up behind him and makes him "drop the prison soap".

"Death to all who disagree with us, murder their husbands and rape their whores!!!" "No what are you doing, no that does not go there, No AHHHHH!"

Actually we should do that to solve all problems caused by religious extremists. Make them have gay sex, then (According to them) they have a one way ticket to hell.

Typical... from a lot of cultures I must add.

Italian culture until some 20 years ago for example (yea, I'm italian).
In Italy, rape wasn't considered a crime against a person, it was a crime against "public ethics" until then! And some people used to think that the raped women somehow "showed" they "wanted" to be raped, by a lack of modesty in dressing, for example.
I'm talking of Italy! A western, civilised, culturally christian country.

And in Italy, until the '70s, expecially in the South, there was the "honour murder" thing. That is, if the father, husband, brother, cousin, uncle (or any other man holding a "legal claim" on a woman's "honour") killed an "adultrous" woman and/or the man she was with, such murder was held (even by law!) a "lesser" sort of murder, because he killer was defending "familiy's honour".

Yeeech.:(

Yeah, well, the Italians were always fucked up. I've seen "I'm Not Scared."

Here is my idea: That guy gets deported within the week.

What a dickhead! He always seemed like a bit of a questionable character, I think, but this just too much. "Extramarital sex" my arse...this guy was talking about judges and 65 year jail terms: he was talking about those gang rapes.

He needs to go, he can't be a public figure and say things like that.

By the way, am I the only one who is annoyed by this idea that men can't control themselves? Like "cats that will go for fresh meat"?

Looks like Leonstein has looked into his pants and found something wonderful; his fucking TESTICLES.

Or am I speaking too early?

Looks like Leonstein has looked into his pants and found something wonderful; his fucking TESTICLES.
Hmmm, would you like to point out to me where I ever agreed with or tried to protect people who did something like this guy?

Hmmm, would you like to point out to me where I ever agreed with or tried to protect people who did something like this guy?

You never stood against them.

Being a women and living in Australia I am appaled at the statements of somone who is suppose to be a leader of his people. when these statements first showed up on the news there were several members of the muslim community who said they felt no reason for him to be removed because its there right as a community to have there own beleifs. they said that because they were muslim it was okay for them to rape women who dress provocitavly.

I admit i am a young women and on ocasion i do dress rather provocatively and let me make it clear i am not asking to be assaulted, it is an actually instinct for single women to dress more out going if they are looking for a boy friend, they are not concously saying "oh i hope that guy fucks me" they want attention but controlled attention they are hoping that men can control them selves and all those people who feel it is there right as a religous group to treat women like that should be kicked out of this country. because as a multicutural country that means somtimes you may have to disregard an arcaic belief in order to live with others who do not hold that belif.

sorry that was long and prolly repeated heaps of what people had said by i was sooo pised by all that stuff i had to vent. so thank you all for reading :)

Looks like Leonstein has looked into his pants and found something wonderful; his fucking TESTICLES.
Naw, they just mine. I haven't had much use for them lately, so I lent them to Leo for a while.

Mind, Leo: I do want them back in good working condition! No playing kicksy with LG! His nads can handle punishment, mine cannot.

Sorry, but this thread just reminds me of a bit from Family guy. It's one of those university induction things.

"ladies, look to you left and right. At least one of those men will rape you."

Girl looks fearfully at both men.

"Oh, I'm not going to rape you"
"I might"

Reactions:

Australia's top Muslim cleric has been barred from preaching for up to three months, after comparing immodestly dressed women to "uncovered meat".
Sheikh Hilali has since apologised for his comments, which he said had been misinterpreted and taken out of context.

"I unreservedly apologise to any woman who is offended by my comments. I had only intended to protect women's honour," he said in a statement published in The Australian.

"Women in our Australian society have the freedom and the right to dress as they choose," he added.

Muslim leaders decided to accept his apology and said that no action would be taken against the cleric.

Mosque Association president Tom Zreika said the board was "basically satisfied with the notion that certain statements made by the mufti [were] misrepresented".

"We felt the three months away would give him time to mull over what's been said," Mr Zreika told reporters.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6090136.stm

*Waits to see if any further legal action is taken*

You never stood against them.
I'm pretty sure I never condoned this sort of thing. I have just always been careful to differentiate between idiots like this guy and other Muslims, like the ones I tend to meet.

This guy is an idiot, regardless of which religion he claims to belong to. He should be treated accordingly.

*Waits to see if any further legal action is taken*

I doubt it, and I don't think there should be. Stupidity is covered by freedom of speech.