NationStates Jolt Archive

See, whatever the Americans can do, the Germans can do too. :rolleyes:

A number of photos have surfaced of German soldiers in Afghanistan "having fun" with a skeleton, presumably from a mass grave of either Muslims or Russian soldiers. They were taken three years ago.

One of the soldiers in question has apparently been found and admitted to it, the investigations are now ramping up.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,444610,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6083388.stm
http://focus.msn.de/politik/ausland/leichenschaendung_nid_38087.html
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/debatte/0,1518,444599,00.html

Idiots. The maximum penalty as far as I know for this sort of thing is three years in jail and expulsion from the military. I hope they get no less.

So far my understanding was that the Bundeswehr was quite popular in the North and their image was good. This is going to change that, I'm pretty sure.

This comes on the back of a man released from Gitmo without charges saying that German KSK troops abused him back in Afghanistan when he was detained. (the link (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,443493,00.html) is worth looking at just for his hair).

And all this while they were preparing to market their new security policy and guidelines (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,444680,00.html).

To me, this just highlights that the military needs a lot more money. Training obviously needs a lot of improvement.

This is bad.

Lets keep this conversation sensible though. No mention of Nazi's and evil germans - Hitler is no longer on the scene.

However, whilst this behaviour cannot be justified I do feel a kind of sympathy with soldiers (from any army of any country). "War is hell". (Walzer).

Can you imagine what soliders see, what they have to do to other people, who at the end of the day are in the same position as themselves. The brutality and inhumanity seen on a day to day basis must lead to psychological defence systems to numb the shock. By "playing" with bodies/skeletons they remove the human element of the enemy. However, this is an example of how difficult it is to implement the rules of war.

The Geneva convention and the internation war crimes tribunal have developed a wide ranging set of rules of war to limit the devastation of war, however war is not a game of football, where if someone commits a foul the player can be sent off. and the objective of oponents in war is to be more brutal than the other. Weapons used by the west should be outlawed under the rules of reciprocity - in fact, the only way to follow the Rules of War is to return to the methods used in WW1 (minus any gases). One man on one man fighting. - never gonna happen.

So what do we do with the soldiers that committ the crimes? Were they carrying out orders? Can they be held fully responsible for these actions?

I've asked a lot of questions, and gave no answers......

-snippage-

This comes on the back of a man released from Gitmo without charges saying that German KSK troops abused him back in Afghanistan when he was detained. (the link (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,443493,00.html) is worth looking at just for his hair).

And all this while they were preparing to market their new security policy and guidelines (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,444680,00.html).

To me, this just highlights that the military needs a lot more money. Training obviously needs a lot of improvement.
Clicks link jut for the hair.
Of course you' know all about dodgy photos now wouldn't you, Neu Leonstein?:p

This is bad.

Lets keep this conversation sensible though. No mention of Nazi's and evil germans - Hitler is no longer on the scene.

However, whilst this behaviour cannot be justified I do feel a kind of sympathy with soldiers (from any army of any country). "War is hell". (Walzer).

Can you imagine what soliders see, what they have to do to other people, who at the end of the day are in the same position as themselves. The brutality and inhumanity seen on a day to day basis must lead to psychological defence systems to numb the shock. By "playing" with bodies/skeletons they remove the human element of the enemy. However, this is an example of how difficult it is to implement the rules of war.

The Geneva convention and the internation war crimes tribunal have developed a wide ranging set of rules of war to limit the devastation of war, however war is not a game of football, where if someone commits a foul the player can be sent off. and the objective of oponents in war is to be more brutal than the other. Weapons used by the west should be outlawed under the rules of reciprocity - in fact, the only way to follow the Rules of War is to return to the methods used in WW1 (minus any gases). One man on one man fighting. - never gonna happen.

So what do we do with the soldiers that committ the crimes? Were they carrying out orders? Can they be held fully responsible for these actions?

I've asked a lot of questions, and gave no answers......


They were definitely not following orders, and I think they should be held fully responsible.
It was their decision to pick this profession, and in the case of German soldiers in Afghanistan it was even their own decision to go there in the first place.

Dehumanising the "enemy" and disregarding the Geneva convention are in no way ever excusable. Germany knows what happens if you decide to take that path, and I expect German soldiers to be aware of that even more than soldiers of any other country (and before you flame me for being anti-German, I am German myself).
If they felt that the pressure was getting to much for them to cope with, there are various options for them, ranging from simple psychological consultation to transfer. There is no way to excuse behaviour like that, and I hope they will get the punishment they deserve.

So what do we do with the soldiers that committ the crimes? Were they carrying out orders? Can they be held fully responsible for these actions?
Well, I assume that once they're found there are going to be criminal charges and punishment. Of course they're responsible for what they do, as would be anyone involved above them.

The German military doesn't do all this "Innere Führung" stuff for nothing. These guys aren't trained to be simple grunts just doing what they're told. They're supposed to have a conscience and act like proper citizens in uniform.

Of course you' know all about dodgy photos now wouldn't you, Neu Leonstein?:p
What do you mean? Seriously, I'm not sure right now. :confused:

Well, I assume that once they're found there are going to be criminal charges and punishment. Of course they're responsible for what they do, as would be anyone involved above them.

The German military doesn't do all this "Innere Führung" stuff for nothing. These guys aren't trained to be simple grunts just doing what they're told. They're supposed to have a conscience and act like proper citizens in uniform.


What do you mean? Seriously, I'm not sure right now. :confused:
Didn't you lose your old nation for posting pics of dead afghanis?:confused:
If not sorry.

Didn't you lose your old nation for posting pics of dead afghanis?:confused:
Oh, yeah. They were Iraqis and Americans though. But anyways, the guy with the hair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murat_Kurnaz) is very much alive.

Oh, yeah. They were Iraqis and Americans though. But anyways, the guy with the hair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murat_Kurnaz) is very much alive.
Yep i remember the Americans.


Night folks...

Aw man, what the hell?

Not only what brought them to do something as stupid as that? They clearly didn't think about the consequences.

I really hope that the Afghani people are sensible and will forgive those idiots involved, and not take it out on the German soldiers who are in Kabul and the North, doing a good job, having nothing to do with this scandal.

I really hope they will receive a swift and severe jail sentence. 3 years, maximum penalty.

I think i've been a bit misunderstood.

To clarify - i dispise soldiers that feel it good for a laugh to mock the enemy/dead etc. they should be punished. (not sure what a suitable punishment would be though, thats hard).

But i'm trying to see it from a soldiers position. they are away from home, in a strange land where they are the target, most might not want to be there - they are there because their govt put them there. they have been ordered to fight, they are trained killers. they have to win the 'hearts and minds' of the people, whilst cause great instability.

Its naive to say that they "chose the occupation", most soliders are uneducated (sweeping generalisation (i Know) the lower ranks out there doing the fighting anyway) and don't often have many opportunities to follow other career paths.

How do people survive the thought of killing other people simply because they are ordered to do so. they have to separate themselves from the reality.

I'm argueing that people of this mentality should not be in the army in the first place. more psychological analysis needs to be carried out in order for this behaviour to be erradicated.

I think i've been a bit misunderstood.

To clarify - i dispise soldiers that feel it good for a laugh to mock the enemy/dead etc. they should be punished. (not sure what a suitable punishment would be though, thats hard).

But i'm trying to see it from a soldiers position. they are away from home, in a strange land where they are the target, most might not want to be there - they are there because their govt put them there. they have been ordered to fight, they are trained killers. they have to win the 'hearts and minds' of the people, whilst cause great instability.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Laerod , Neu Leonstein and German Nightmare, but as far as I know most of the German troops in Afghanistan volunteered for the mission.


I'm argueing that people of this mentality should not be in the army in the first place. more psychological analysis needs to be carried out in order for this behaviour to be erradicated.

Agreed. However, I guess that the soldiers in question are mentally stable (well, as stable as you can expect someone choosing a career in the military to be), seeing as they were sent on this mission in the first place. Germany tends to be too selfconscious about its international image to send unstable soldiers abroad.

Again, I need to clarify - i'm discussing soldiers in general, not these german ones in particular.

If the german soldiers volunteered to go to Afganistan and then carried out such acts they should be jailed. letting them go home is easy.

Whenver i think of the Germans discussing war crime issues i always imagine the character in the Fast Show. ("I feel i should apologise for my nations behaviour during the years of 1938-1945").

Its a shame that the UK and USA never showed this restraint or regret or were tried at Nuremberg/Tokyo.

Victors Justice !?!?!?!?!?

Again, I need to clarify - i'm discussing soldiers in general, not these german ones in particular.

If the german soldiers volunteered to go to Afganistan and then carried out such acts they should be jailed. letting them go home is easy.

Whenver i think of the Germans discussing war crime issues i always imagine the character in the Fast Show. ("I feel i should apologise for my nations behaviour during the years of 1938-1945").

Its a shame that the UK and USA never should this restraint or regret or were tried at Nuremberg/Tokyo.

Victors Justice !?!?!?!?!?

Victors write history, losers learn. ;)

Correct me if I'm wrong, Laerod , Neu Leonstein and German Nightmare, but as far as I know most of the German troops in Afghanistan volunteered for the mission.
I don't think I'm wrong when I say that all those who serve in missions abroad volunteer for that.
Agreed. However, I guess that the soldiers in question are mentally stable (well, as stable as you can expect someone choosing a career in the military to be), seeing as they were sent on this mission in the first place. Germany tends to be too selfconscious about its international image to send unstable soldiers abroad.
Which leads me to the question who was with those guys and in charge of the bunch - and apparently didn't care to stop the desecration of a corpse.

But why am I even amazed. Most guys who volunteer to the military aren't in their sound mind to begin with.*


*(My thesis has been proven right again and again by the people I meet... It is, however, still in the statistical evaluation phase.)
Again, I need to clarify - i'm discussing soldiers in general, not these german ones in particular.
This is called threadjacking and frowned upon. :mad: Don't do it. If you want to discuss the merits of soldiery in general. Do so, in General, and make your own thread. This thread is about the German soldiers.

If the german soldiers volunteered to go to Afganistan and then carried out such acts they should be jailed. letting them go home is easy.
All German soldiers serving on missions abroad volunteer for those.
They are already being investigated. Some aren't even in the military any longer, for this incident happened in 2003. (Haven't read the articles, eh?)

Bump.

More pictures are turning up, and one of the guys involved actually gave an interview (http://www.bild.t-online.de/BTO/news/aktuell/2006/10/27/afghanistan-soldat-bericht-0/afghanistan-soldat-bericht.html) to a tabloid. He says the Afghans dug the bones up while getting building materials, and they didn't care too much when the Germans played around with them.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,445133,00.html
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,444866,00.html