NationStates Jolt Archive

Well what do you think? Time for another revolution in America? Should we rise up and fucking pillage?

No, we should reform the system from within. Besides, the mid-term elections are two weeks away, the GOP is going to be demolished.

We're not to that point yet, though if the voters persist in being unfathomly stupid it will get there.

If you're into doing mind-numbingly stupid and pointless things, then yes. If not, no.

If you're into doing mind-numbingly stupid and pointless things, then yes. If not, no.

Agreed

I'd like to stage a coup, come to power in Minnesota, secede from the Union, and create a Minnesotan republic. "Minnesotanization" would follow.

Minnesotanization would entail:

1. The renaming of all public places that are currently named after non-Minnesotans, and renaming them after Minnesotans
2. Declaring our first governor, as well as Paul Wellstone, National Heroes
3. Total ban on all public displays of the U.S. flag. Only Minnesotan flags would be allowed (on peoples' own property, however, they could display whatever they wished).
4. A new Minnesotan anthem.
5. Minnesotan English would be the official language.
6. The Minnesotan National Guard would be expanded into a large military, with an army, navy, and air force.

Not now, no - there is simply no popular basis for such a thing, nor any organization capable of bringing it about.

Uh....... no??? Revolutions are very destructive in terms of lost life and lost property. Holding one right now would be like shooting oneself in the foot as things are not bad enough now to warrant this level of atrocious destruction and that is assuming that we would be able to mount a rebellion. We would have to see a president appoint themselves king or see the 1st amendment (or other important ones) completely repealed in order for something like this to be necessary.

No, we should reform the system from within. Besides, the mid-term elections are two weeks away, the GOP is going to be demolished.

Yeah, I mean seriously why is it now two weeks from an elections the GOP could very likely lose that people seem to be poping up all over saying we should overthrow the goverment.

No, we should reform the system from within. Besides, the mid-term elections are two weeks away, the GOP is going to be demolished.

even assuming that the elections go like the polls say they will - and there is enough reason to be suspicious of that by now - the dems almost certainly won't have anywhere near the power to actually stop any of the shit that the bush movement has been pulling. we've been morally obligated to rise up against this for years now. every hour that we let this go on is a complete and utter moral failure, and it's on all of our heads.

If there's a revolution, there may well be looting. And there's nothing like a good lute, I can tell you.

even assuming that the elections go like the polls say they will - and there is enough reason to be suspicious of that by now - the dems almost certainly won't have anywhere near the power to actually stop any of the shit that the bush movement has been pulling. we've been morally obligated to rise up against this for years now. every hour that we let this go on is a complete and utter moral failure, and it's on all of our heads.

If these new Dems are anything alike any of the Dems currently in office they still won't have the backbone to stand up to Bush. Even with a majority in the House and or Senate they still may not be able to stop Bush from implementing his measures for the ever continuing terror of being thought of as weak on terror. The publics perception of the Iraq War may be changing but it may not be enough to stop the Dems kneejerk reaction of compromisng on their principles instead of standing firm againt Bush.

Yeah, I mean seriously why is it now two weeks from an elections the GOP could very likely lose that people seem to be poping up all over saying we should overthrow the goverment.
Because they recognize that it isn't the GOP that is the problem, but it is instead a broader issue of the nature of modern governments? The Democrats didn't bring us into the promised land the last time they had power, why should the next (or, rather, the same with a few superficial replacements) batch of them do us any more favors?

Because they recognize that it isn't the GOP that is the problem, but it is instead a broader issue of the nature of modern governments? The Democrats didn't bring us into the promised land the last time they had power, why should the next (or, rather, the same with a few superficial replacements) batch of them do us any more favors?

To be fair Clinton did face a GOP controlled Congress through most of his term.

there will be no revolution,there will be wars where most of you,will be actors
the rest is up to you.

Because they recognize that it isn't the GOP that is the problem, but it is instead a broader issue of the nature of modern governments? The Democrats didn't bring us into the promised land the last time they had power, why should the next (or, rather, the same with a few superficial replacements) batch of them do us any more favors?

Yeah, but a revolution isn't going to bring about a promised land either, even if it were to succeed. So I fail to see your point.

Think before you speak. Or in this case, write. If you removed the current people from power, who would replace them? The guys who lost the last 2 presidential elections? The guys who lost the last 3 congressional elections? That's democracy in action--oh wait, it isn't. It's the exact opposite of power through popularity.

Vive la Revolución!

http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/transport024.gif

No, we should reform the system from within. Besides, the mid-term elections are two weeks away, the GOP is going to be demolished.
What's the point? The Democrats are almost the same.

If you removed the current people from power, who would replace them?

ideally, entirely new bodies in the form of local assemblies which would then freely federate as they saw fit.

more probably, given the current social facts, sovereignty would first fall to the existing state governments.

Think before you speak. Or in this case, write. If you removed the current people from power, who would replace them? The guys who lost the last 2 presidential elections? The guys who lost the last 3 congressional elections? That's democracy in action--oh wait, it isn't. It's the exact opposite of power through popularity.
Why can't Americans ever see beyond Democrats and Republicans?

If Democrats were the answer they could be elected. If Democrats aren't the answer and neither are Republicans, then revolution is needed.

Ah yes revolution just sounds dandy... until you start looking at the amount of death and destruction that comes with it.

*Insert Thoughtcrime*

The only Revolution that I could see happening is a coup from the military being sick of being used to make rich people profit.

Ah yes revolution just sounds dandy... until you start looking at the amount of death and destruction that comes with it.

Yes, much better to live under an oppressive government then to fight for your liberty. Why, people might get hurt if we take on the government!

ideally, entirely new bodies in the form of local assemblies which would then freely federate as they saw fit.

more probably, given the current social facts, sovereignty would first fall to the existing state governments.

And the state goverment will still be around after a war on the scale this would call for against the goverment they are part of how?

Ah yes revolution just sounds dandy... until you start looking at the amount of death and destruction that comes with it.

as opposed to the 600,000 excess deaths, 1.5 million refugees, and untold number torture victims this state is busy creating currently?

And the state goverment will still be around after a war on the scale this would call for against the goverment they are part of how?

what war?

what part would "pillage" play in a revolution?

Sounds more like a riot in LA after the Rodney King verdict. If you arent happy with how things go, smash some store windows and steal merchandise.
Then, burn down the store your friend's mother works in.

Maybe your team doesnt win in basketball. Or maybe they do. Turn over a few police cars and burn something.

Nah-pillage aint really part of it.

as opposed to the 600,000 excess deaths, 1.5 million refugees, and untold number torture victims this state is busy creating currently?

I wasn't condoning the war in Iraq, but I seriously doubt that overthrowing the goverment is going to stop all the problems in the Middle East right now.

I don't think things are bad enough yet to justify a total overthrow of the government. Things need to change, but it's unlikely that they will. sorry, but I'm a bit of a pessimist. (And a realist)

If you all really want a revolution, then go start one. Just don't expect me to be jumping on board.

"Sir, the people are revolting!"

"I know what you mean. They're ugly, they're stupid, they smell terrible..."

what war?

The war that would result in the case of a revolution assuming you are useing the term in the way it is being adressed in this thread, ie a Second American Revolution where the members of the populace rise up against the goverment. There are plenty of people out their who would, for whatever reason, fight to maintain the current status quo. If, however, you are refering to a revolution at the polls, meaning that the people vote for drastic changes your early comments of dissmisal as to the upcoming election are odd. If however, you think that the powers that be would stand by and peacefuly tolerate their removal, ecspecially when many in the populace would oppose said removal, I'm just not sure what to say.

America needs massive change but revolution, I would hope not. America has moved to far in controlling its businesses, to far in taxing its people, it has taken away some freedoms in order to make people feel better, it denies homosexuals the right to marry, it has a terrible public education system that wastes billions of dollars, party system(thats all that needs saying), its borders are wide open instead of sealed tightly, it is overly dependant on foreign oil while not pouring enough money into alternative fuels, fighting a way with only part of its power, and you all know that I could go on and on.

In summary America needs to make its markets freer, it needs to give its people more rights(gay marriage, full abortion rights, repeal of gun control laws except fully automatic weapons, flat income tax %, and better defended borders), it also would be better off to remove itself from the UN.

The war that would result in the case of a revolution assuming you are useing the term in the way it is being adressed in this thread, ie a Second American Revolution where the members of the populace rise up against the goverment.

that doesn't require a war. these things typically go down with some occupation of government buildings and some barricades in the roads. sometimes, you need a bit of rioting too. if the military comes out united against you and in full force, well, your revolution is fairly well screwed.

the trick is really a matter of breaking the illusion of legitimacy, mostly.

America has moved to far in controlling its businesses

being controlled by, surely

Im all for being very "unreasonable" to enforce change, but we dont need a revolution. We should pull a France- barricade some roads, burn some coaches- enough to remind those in power we are not sheep. But the true cost of a revolution is unfathomable.

You do realize how many missles and nukes are in America, do you not? Even the UN cannot abide a country made of violent factions that each have enough offensive capability to wipe an entire continent off the map. There would be European troops on the ground within hours, and I find it unlikely that the US would ever be one solid country again.

And do not kid yourself into thinking an American Revolution could be quickly resolved. There are groups that are just waiting for the chance to autonomize themselves. Our national wealth would probably dissapear when the wealthy hop over the Canadian lines (richer banks tend to be universally accessible).

I don't want a revolution per se--I want the US to break up into about a dozen or more small nations. We're too big, and as a result, it's too easy for a monolithic government to control people. I want to be able to gather 100,000 people in a protest and have the government shit its pants over it, and in a country of 300 million, that's not going to happen. In a country of 20 million, though, 100,000 is a good sized army, especially when pissed off.

In other words, the US should become the new Europe.

I don't want a revolution per se--I want the US to break up into about a dozen or more small nations. We're too big, and as a result, it's too easy for a monolithic government to control people. I want to be able to gather 100,000 people in a protest and have the government shit its pants over it, and in a country of 300 million, that's not going to happen. In a country of 20 million, though, 100,000 is a good sized army, especially when pissed off.I couldn't agree more. Now if only China, India & Pakistan would do the same...

Would be so nice if there weren't any militaristic superpowers to worry about.

I couldn't agree more. Now if only China, India & Pakistan would do the same...

Would be so nice if there weren't any militaristic superpowers to worry about.
I would imagine that if China posed an actual threat to invade North America, not only would you have the various states join together in common defense, but you'd have Canada and Mexico doing the same. Besides, the greatest threat we face from China is an economic one, not a military one.

I don't want a revolution per se--I want the US to break up into about a dozen or more small nations. We're too big, and as a result, it's too easy for a monolithic government to control people. I want to be able to gather 100,000 people in a protest and have the government shit its pants over it, and in a country of 300 million, that's not going to happen. In a country of 20 million, though, 100,000 is a good sized army, especially when pissed off.

You could go back in time to the 1840's...I think the population was about 20 million then.

The dynamics of that situation would be very interesting; I wonder if we would function like Europe with a coherent multinational policy or if we woul pursue individual aims. Also, would we have the same currency/laws/tax structures or political systems? There's a lot of ways the situation could play out. It's an interesting thought experiment to say the least...the only way it might be more interesting is if it were to happen in reality.

In other words, the US should become the new Europe.

It would be a different world, to say the least. However, I'd be worried about it becoming the new Balkans...I could just see one nation whipping up anti-whatever sentiment and deciding to march in to another state to take it over or even worse "cleanse" its population of whatever they see as undesirable. All you'd need is a few thousand kooks and you could cause real damage.

I would imagine that if China posed an actual threat to invade North America, not only would you have the various states join together in common defense, but you'd have Canada and Mexico doing the same. Besides, the greatest threat we face from China is an economic one, not a military one.If the EU & US dissulved into their individual parts, they'd be bankrupted in a matter of years by the larger & explosively growing nations.

My quip about militaristic superpowers was more about who they/we usually abuse. I in no way meant to imply anyone poses any threat to neither the US nor the EU. There's no reason to believe all our countries wouldn't still be military allies & fully capable of pounding any & all comers into oblivion, just like we are at present.

Besides, why in the hell would anyone wage war when corporatism can accomplish the same, both faster & while making money?

You could go back in time to the 1840's...I think the population was about 20 million then.

The dynamics of that situation would be very interesting; I wonder if we would function like Europe with a coherent multinational policy or if we woul pursue individual aims. Also, would we have the same currency/laws/tax structures or political systems? There's a lot of ways the situation could play out. It's an interesting thought experiment to say the least...the only way it might be more interesting is if it were to happen in reality.

It would be a different world, to say the least. However, I'd be worried about it becoming the new Balkans...I could just see one nation whipping up anti-whatever sentiment and deciding to march in to another state to take it over or even worse "cleanse" its population of whatever they see as undesirable. All you'd need is a few thousand kooks and you could cause real damage.

In order for something like this to happen, I think there would have to be some manner of apocalyptic event where it became clear that the centralized government couldn't handle the nation anymore--that or a bomb that, say, took out Congress and most of the executive branch and the Supreme Court at the same time, where a governor or two would declare a state of emergency and then declare autonomy, etc. It would really have to be a severe situation. And if you're in a situation like that, anything goes. There's no telling what will happen.

I say that because the federal government will not allow a secession, and no single state can stand against the power of the feds--there's no way. California would have the best shot, and even they would be no match for the US military, not even if they seized all the assets there and had the loyalty of the on-site commanders.

Trust me, I would love to live in the Republic of South Florida.

If the EU & US dissulved into their individual parts, they'd be bankrupted in a matter of years by the larger & explosively growing nations.

My quip about militaristic superpowers was more about who they/we usually abuse. I in no way meant to imply anyone poses any threat to neither the US nor the EU. There's no reason to believe all our countries wouldn't still be military allies & fully capable of pounding any & all comers into oblivion, just like we are at present.

Besides, why in the hell would anyone wage war when corporatism can accomplish the same, both faster & while making money?

I certainly believe that corporations are a greater threat to national identity than anything else right now.

Yeah man! Revolution Calling!

For a price I'd do about anything
Except pull the trigger
For that I'd need a pretty good cause
Then I heard of Dr. X
The man with the cure
Just watch the television
Yeah, you'll see there's something going on

Got no love for politicians
Or that crazy scene in D.C.
It's just a power mad town
But the time is ripe for changes
There's a growing feeling
That taking a chance on a new kind of vision is due

I used to trust the media
To tell me the truth, tell us the truth
But now I've seen the payoffs
Everywhere I look
Who do you trust when everyone's a crook?

Revolution calling
Revolution calling
Revolution calling you
(There's a) Revolution calling
Revolution calling
Gotta make a change
Gotta push, gotta push it on through

I'm tired of all this bullshit
They keep selling me on T.V.
About the communist plan
And all the shady preachers
Begging for my cash
Swiss bank accounts while giving their
Secretaries the slam

They're all in Penthouse now
Or Playboy magazine, million dollar stories to tell
I guess Warhol wasn't wrong
Fame fifteen minutes long
Everyone's using everybody, making the sale

I used to think
That only America's way, way was right
But now the holy dollar rules everybody's lives
Gotta make a million doesn't matter who dies

Revolution calling
Revolution calling
Revolution calling you
(There's a) Revolution calling
Revolution calling
Gotta make a change
Gotta push, gotta push it on through

I used to trust the media
To tell me the truth, tell us the truth
But now I've seen the payoffs
Everywhere I look
Who do you trust when everyone's a crook?

Revolution calling
Revolution calling
Revolution calling you
(There's a) Revolution calling
Revolution calling
Gotta make a change
Gotta push, gotta push it on through

That's not what you meant? Damn... It's a good song, though.

However, I'd be worried about it becoming the new Balkans...I could just see one nation whipping up anti-whatever sentiment and deciding to march in to another state to take it over or even worse "cleanse" its population of whatever they see as undesirable. All you'd need is a few thousand kooks and you could cause real damage.

Trade would prevent that from happening - just as it does today for Europe and most of the developed world.

The big problem would be preventing the units from ignoring the interests of the others on questions like environmental regulation.

Trade would prevent that from happening - just as it does today for Europe and most of the developed world.

That's true; I'd still be concerned about flare-ups but I'd have to agree the possibility is fairly remote.

The big problem would be preventing the units from ignoring the interests of the others on questions like environmental regulation.

I think any problems would be more motivated by things like this rather than by ethnic or religious tensions; you could end up having a new version of the "nullification crisis" all over again, only this time there is no true central government to enforce it.

Environmental regulation would be particularly bad.

I certainly believe that corporations are a greater threat to national identity than anything else right now.That makes two of us.

And damn.. Privatization is pissing me off as well. Recently a public power company was sold. That's 60 years of investments, infrastructure & innovation, sold for little immediate gain. And now we taxpayers will have to pay more for our power.
Same thing happened to the old phone company. Same thing will probably happen to our sanitation. And somewhere over the horizon, I think I can make out the privatization of our waterworks..

*Sighs*

I'll prolly end up having to move again. This country's turning to shit.

Ah yes revolution just sounds dandy... until you start looking at the amount of death and destruction that comes with it.

Only if you fight against it.

In order for something like this to happen, I think there would have to be some manner of apocalyptic event where it became clear that the centralized government couldn't handle the nation anymore--that or a bomb that, say, took out Congress and most of the executive branch and the Supreme Court at the same time, where a governor or two would declare a state of emergency and then declare autonomy, etc. It would really have to be a severe situation. And if you're in a situation like that, anything goes. There's no telling what will happen.

Shit would have to hit the fan on an unprecedented scale for that to happen. The only way it might happen otherwise is if a group of states like California, New York, Texas, and Florida all seceded together and used their economic resources to gain independence from the rest of the country, and once they left it would probably cascade out of control from there.

I say that because the federal government will not allow a secession, and no single state can stand against the power of the feds--there's no way. California would have the best shot, and even they would be no match for the US military, not even if they seized all the assets there and had the loyalty of the on-site commanders.

That's true. You'd need something big like the aformentioned Cal/Fla/Tex/Ny combo to have a real shot.

Trust me, I would love to live in the Republic of South Florida.

Hey, I wouldn't mind having the Republic of Southern Ohio...maybe we could finally start spending our money on our own needs rather than having to prop up the rest of the state. After all, we're responsible for almost all the economic growth in the state...

I don't want a revolution per se--I want the US to break up into about a dozen or more small nations.

Yes!

I call dibs on Minnesota! :D

I think any problems would be more motivated by things like this rather than by ethnic or religious tensions; you could end up having a new version of the "nullification crisis" all over again, only this time there is no true central government to enforce it.

Environmental regulation would be particularly bad.

The problem is soluble; the solution is simply not as straightforward as it is with a centralized government.

As long as all the states know who the violators are, they can refuse to accede to the demands of the violating states on other questions; this provides a strong disincentive to screw over everyone else.

Though that kind of solution requires approximate power parity; if you have powerful and powerless states, the retaliation of the powerless states will be negligible, and the powerful states will ignore it. This is the problem in international relations - that, and the fact that national governments don't really care as much about these things as they pretend.

Shit would have to hit the fan on an unprecedented scale for that to happen. The only way it might happen otherwise is if a group of states like California, New York, Texas, and Florida all seceded together and used their economic resources to gain independence from the rest of the country, and once they left it would probably cascade out of control from there.



That's true. You'd need something big like the aformentioned Cal/Fla/Tex/Ny combo to have a real shot.I don't think it would work even then. I's not economic power that'll make the break--it's military power. So in order for this to happen, there has to be a complete collapse of the central power structure, and it has to stay collapsed long enough for a local power figure or ten to make a grab "in the interests of the people" of course.



Hey, I wouldn't mind having the Republic of Southern Ohio...maybe we could finally start spending our money on our own needs rather than having to prop up the rest of the state. After all, we're responsible for almost all the economic growth in the state...
Same thing here--north Florida has shit, except for the capital, a couple of universities, and the majority of the state legislative districts, which means they have a disproportionate amount of power. Florida's a 50-50 state, but the legislature is 3-1 Republican in the House and almost as bad in the Senate. Talk about gerrymandering. And we can't win enough back to even it out any, so the south gets fucked.

Yes!

I call dibs on Minnesota! :D

I think someone beat you to it on the first page. Maybe you can work out a power-sharing arrangement or something. ;)

No, we should reform the system from within. Besides, the mid-term elections are two weeks away, the GOP is going to be demolished.

:rolleyes:

absolutly, but, sadly, i don't think it is feasible at the moment.

I don't want a revolution per se--I want the US to break up into about a dozen or more small nations.

There was a book written about hypothetical national divisions in North America.

Nine Nations of North America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Nations_of_North_America)

Anyway, I've had just such an opinion for some time. What divisions would be made are a different story. I'd imagine that the lower peninsula of Michigan would be seperate, although possibly part of a larger Great Lakes confederation or alliance.

There was a book written about hypothetical national divisions in North America.

Nine Nations of North America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Nations_of_North_America)

Anyway, I've had just such an opinion for some time. What divisions would be made are a different story. I'd imagine that the lower peninsula of Michigan would be seperate, although possibly part of a larger Great Lakes confederation or alliance.

I got my version of it more from the world described in Heinlein's Friday, only it's corporate divisions of nations as opposed to a breakdown in civil authority.

If you want a good revolution, you need a good song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVHuFuyFoUI)

I don't want a revolution per se--I want the US to break up into about a dozen or more small nations. We're too big, and as a result, it's too easy for a monolithic government to control people. I want to be able to gather 100,000 people in a protest and have the government shit its pants over it, and in a country of 300 million, that's not going to happen. In a country of 20 million, though, 100,000 is a good sized army, especially when pissed off.

In other words, the US should become the new Europe.

I support this fully. Long live The Republic of New England!

Yeah man! Revolution Calling!

For a price I'd do about anything
Except pull the trigger
For that I'd need a pretty good cause
Then I heard of Dr. X
The man with the cure
Just watch the television
Yeah, you'll see there's something going on

Got no love for politicians
Or that crazy scene in D.C.
It's just a power mad town
But the time is ripe for changes
There's a growing feeling
That taking a chance on a new kind of vision is due

I used to trust the media
To tell me the truth, tell us the truth
But now I've seen the payoffs
Everywhere I look
Who do you trust when everyone's a crook?

Revolution calling
Revolution calling
Revolution calling you
(There's a) Revolution calling
Revolution calling
Gotta make a change
Gotta push, gotta push it on through

I'm tired of all this bullshit
They keep selling me on T.V.
About the communist plan
And all the shady preachers
Begging for my cash
Swiss bank accounts while giving their
Secretaries the slam

They're all in Penthouse now
Or Playboy magazine, million dollar stories to tell
I guess Warhol wasn't wrong
Fame fifteen minutes long
Everyone's using everybody, making the sale

I used to think
That only America's way, way was right
But now the holy dollar rules everybody's lives
Gotta make a million doesn't matter who dies

Revolution calling
Revolution calling
Revolution calling you
(There's a) Revolution calling
Revolution calling
Gotta make a change
Gotta push, gotta push it on through

I used to trust the media
To tell me the truth, tell us the truth
But now I've seen the payoffs
Everywhere I look
Who do you trust when everyone's a crook?

Revolution calling
Revolution calling
Revolution calling you
(There's a) Revolution calling
Revolution calling
Gotta make a change
Gotta push, gotta push it on through

That's not what you meant? Damn... It's a good song, though.

Actually, that's where I got the thread name. I'm a big Queensryche fan.

I'm not for pillaging, but I am for a revolution.

Burn it.

I'd like to stage a coup, come to power in Minnesota, secede from the Union, and create a Minnesotan republic. "Minnesotanization" would follow.

Minnesotanization would entail:

1. The renaming of all public places that are currently named after non-Minnesotans, and renaming them after Minnesotans
2. Declaring our first governor, as well as Paul Wellstone, National Heroes
3. Total ban on all public displays of the U.S. flag. Only Minnesotan flags would be allowed (on peoples' own property, however, they could display whatever they wished).
4. A new Minnesotan anthem.
5. Minnesotan English would be the official language.
6. The Minnesotan National Guard would be expanded into a large military, with an army, navy, and air force.

Heyo, I'm from Minnesota. Greatest state in the Union. Unfortunately, "Fargo" was filmed here(I. Hate. That. Movie.), and put a stain upon us all. I would definately support a revolution, as long as it involved destroying every last copy of this Godforsaken movie.

I like your plan. May I write the Anthem? Plenty of "Glorious Minnesota!"'s iin it.

Well what do you think? Time for another revolution in America? Should we rise up and fucking pillage?

I'd do it like Gandhi did it. Without striking a person.

I'm not for pillaging, but I am for a revolution.

A revolution without pillaging isnt any sort of a revolution at all, same with dancing :D

I'd do it like Gandhi did it. Without striking a person.

Good luck with that. Western nations are not weak and war-exhausted like Britain was post-WW2. Pacifistic revolution has its merits, but it's only ever effective in certain situations. Otherwise the powers at be have too much at stake to just "give up", especially when they have access to the force necessary to preserve their position.