NationStates Jolt Archive


Barack Obama and Abraham Lincoln.

PsychoticDan
25-10-2006, 18:20
I like James Howard Kunstler. I agree with his vague vision of the future. "What's going to happen? Who knows? But these are the tremendous challenges we face..." I don't know what's going to happen to us, either, as we face climate change, the decline of world energy supplies, a decline in world water supplies, etc... Plus, I like his writing style. It's just plain entertaining.

Anyhoo, here's an interesting take from him on Barrack Obama that compares him with Abraham Lincoln from an historical perspective.

Enter Barack Obama
October 23, 2006,
History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes, Mark Twain famously observed. A hundred and fifty years (roughly) after the civil war, the United States faces another possible political convulsion. The earlier one was over slavery, a moral contradiction so stark and awful that an emerging modern industrial polity could no longer ignore it. The coming convulsion we face in the 21st century is not so much moral but no less stark: the collapse of a faltering industrial polity in the face of depleting energy supplies. Like the earlier dilemma of slavery, our national leaders refuse to face it.

The years just preceding the Civil War, the late 1850s, have some resemblance to our politics today. They were highly polarized. They produced outcomes in politics (the Kansas Nebraska Act, the Dred Scott decision) which allowed a vicious pro-slavery minority to impose their will on the rest of the nation -- just as a fundamentalist Christian minority imposes its will on the public today.

The 1850s were also a time of disarray in the political parties. The Whig party, which had more-or-less run things since the time of Andrew Jackson, dried up and blew away because it ceased to stand for anything. The opposing Democrats of that day had sold their souls to the pro-slavery interests. In this vacuum of cravenness, the Republican Party formed and nominated a failed one-term congressman turned railroad lawyer from Illinois named Abraham Lincoln to run for president.

Now, in 2006, we have two political parties in disarray. The Republicans are hemorrhaging legitimacy in an unsuccessful military adventure and a sewer spill of scandal. The Democrats are going Whiggish -- sinking in a bog of equivocation. And now along comes a first-term senator from Illinois, Barack Obama, as the most appealing figure of authority in a looming presidential contest.

Like Lincoln, Obama is not completely formed politically. His lean face, like Lincoln's face pre-beard, needs filling out, as do his ideas and prescriptions for leadership. What he has in common with Lincoln is a gift for plain and convincing rhetoric. After decades of spin, PC euphemizing, neocon proxy speech, and similar bullshit, the public sees Obama as capable of straight talk. He told the last Democratic convention that there were no Blue or Red states but only a United States -- and after the crowd heard that they wanted to trade in John Kerry like a bad wedding present.

Obama, who is not up for re-election this fall, has cut a swath through the heartland to boost other candidates and has generated huge admiring crowds. Time Magazine columnist Joe Klein said on NBC's Meet the Press show this week that the crowds of mainly Midwestern white people seem to feel tremendous gratitude to Obama for not being Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson -- a seemingly odd point worth examining.

Obama's father was from Kenya and his mother from Kansas. He grew up mostly in Hawaii, with a four-year side-trip in Indonesia. He had a distinguished academic career at Columbia and Harvard. Though he is half-African he carries none of the baggage of stereotypical American black culture. He doesn't speak in the patois of the ghetto (or pretend to), and he appears not to possess a sense of implacable grievance for being who he is.

Since the 1960s Civil Rights project climaxed in the federal legislation of 1964-65, and then dissolved after the murder of Martin Luther King into a kind of voluntary apartheid of grievance, there have been no African-American leaders who represent unequivocally the prospect of real assimilation into mainstream American culture. Among the lies we tell ourselves is that America has become a happy multicultural kindergarten. In fact, black culture has never been so overtly and self-consciously separate -- and that separation has tragically been promoted by the white yuppie progressive establishment pandering to implacable black grievance. Below the uppermost classes of both races, there has probably never been so much mistrust seething below the surface.

The convulsion that a President Obama might be elected into would be one first of economics. Our industrial economy is going to fall on its knees when global energy scarcities gets traction. There is going to be a scramble for resources world-wide and here in North America, and we are all set up to fracture along ethnic and regional lines as that occurs. The presence of a suddenly overwhelming, non-assimilated Hispanic population will only make things more difficult.

A President Obama would also very probably face a geopolitical crisis as the US, China, Russia, Japan, Europe, and the Islamic nations jockey desperately over energy resources while their own populations grow restive, desperate, angry, and possibly aggressive. In other words, a President Obama would possibly face a world war, a civil war, and a great depression all at once. This is not a happy fate for any leader, and so perhaps in the public perception of Barack Obama, in the rising of his star, so to speak, the public apprehends the outlines of tragedy, just as the historical Lincoln is an incomplete picture without the tragedy of his murder a few days after the resolution of the terrible war he presided over.

Remember, history rhymes but does not necessarily repeat itself. I am not saying that a President Barack Obama would be assassinated. But he would certainly have a rough passage through a sea of troubles. This nation, and the familiar patterns of everyday life in it, might not survive the kind of convulsion I describe. Whatever happens, an Obama presidency would probably have to be improvisational, on-the-fly, as Lincoln's had to be amid the uncertainties of war. Someone on Meet the Press said Obama's wife would pressure him not to run. Well, Mary Lincoln was nervous, too, and with good reason, it turned out. But Abe did not shrink from his call. Destiny is a stranger mistress. And maybe more compelling.

http://jameshowardkunstler.typepad.com/clusterfuck_nation/2006/10/enter_barack_ob.html
Farnhamia
25-10-2006, 18:23
Bleak, Dan, very bleak. I like Obama but I think he's not got enough experience yet, not even by 2008 (he'll have to start running in '07 anyway). And Senators make terrible Presidential candidates. Someone suggested he run for Illinois governor, which is up soon, and do that job for a term or so. I think it's a fine idea.
Schull
25-10-2006, 18:28
On a related note, I feel very sorry for whoever gets elected President in '08. So many heavy issues to deal with as they are right now, and it's easy to see the new problems they'll be facing on the horizon.
Szanth
25-10-2006, 18:33
On a related note, I feel very sorry for whoever gets elected President in '08. So many heavy issues to deal with as they are right now, and it's easy to see the new problems they'll be facing on the horizon.

True, but god how easy it'll be to get the public on your side after Bush leaves.
PsychoticDan
25-10-2006, 18:41
I think there's a lot of hope out there that he'll run and win. He's a politician, but as Kunstler points out he at least sounds like he's shooting from the hip. He answers questions directly rather than resorting to "freedom is on the mrach" kinds of rhetoric, he's tuned into the energy challenges we face and he inspires people - an important quality that is often underestimated. I detect that hope in Kunstler in this article. True, we don't know him all that well, yet. But I like what I see so far and I'd like to learn more. A term in the governor's mansion in Illinois might take too long. We need inspired national leadership right now. We can't wait another 6 or ten years. Not just for our sake, but for the world's sake the US needs to return to a leadership role not because we're better than anybody else, but because we are still many times over the most powerful country in the world in terms of our economy and our military. If we could reassociate ourselves with our moral voice we may be able to help the world avoid the worst of what's to come.
PsychoticDan
25-10-2006, 20:14
bump
Rhaomi
25-10-2006, 20:44
I like James Howard Kunstler. I agree with his vague vision of the future. "What's going to happen? Who knows? But these are the tremendous challenges we face..." I don't know what's going to happen to us, either, as we face climate change, the decline of world energy supplies, a decline in world water supplies, etc... Plus, I like his writing style. It's just plain entertaining.
You ever read his article about peak oil (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/7203633/the_long_emergency)? That's some scary shit right there...
Sumamba Buwhan
25-10-2006, 20:45
Obamba would probably make an awesome President but I dont think he is allowed to run until he gets all old and wrinkley. It's in the Constitution, check it out of your local library!

The more you know.
Kecibukia
25-10-2006, 20:49
Obamba would probably make an awesome President but I dont think he is allowed to run until he gets all old and wrinkley. It's in the Constitution, check it out of your local library!

The more you know.

Sorry. That's in the 'banned books' section.
Khadgar
25-10-2006, 20:50
Obamba would probably make an awesome President but I dont think he is allowed to run until he gets all old and wrinkley. It's in the Constitution, check it out of your local library!

The more you know.

Old wrinkled and white. You forgot white. Can't have a black president.
Sumamba Buwhan
25-10-2006, 20:57
Sorry. That's in the 'banned books' section.

Southern Stater eh? :p

Old wrinkled and white. You forgot white. Can't have a black president.


Shit yer right... I forgot about the preamble:

We the old, rich, white people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect old, rich, white union, establish old, rich, white justice, insure old, rich, white domestic tranquility, provide for the old, rich, white common defense, promote the old, rich, white general welfare, and secure the blessings of old, rich, white liberty to ourselves and our old, rich, white posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of old, rich, white America.
Khadgar
25-10-2006, 20:58
Old, rich, white, heterosexual, and christian.
H N Fiddlebottoms VIII
25-10-2006, 22:16
Old, rich, white, heterosexual, and christian.
But that doesn't fit into music nearly as well as "Rich, White and Republican."
Which puts me on the broader issue, if Obama takes the presidency from Bush it would completely end the 6-year period of relevancy that my musical collection has enjoyed.

Goofballing aside, there are more similarities between Lincoln and Bush than between Lincoln and any other modern figures: Linocoln was responsible for a major inflation presidential powers, had no respect for the concept of "habeas corpus", accused anyone who spoke out against his methods of being a traitor, was accused of despotism, dragged the country through a depression, and sought to claim the Human Rights high-ground to put a bit of shine on a largely unpopular war years after the war had started.
The Civil War also saw the birth of war-profiteering and of inflicting civilian damage to your enemy.
Following this logic, Bush is going to go see Jackass 2 (since I doubt he'd be caught dead in a playhouse) and get shot by Johnny Knoxville (as a stunt for the sequel, you see). This will be followed by a decrease in presidential power as increasingly dickless presidents receive office and are promptly forgotten about for the next 3-5 decades until an adventurer figure shows up and says "Bully" and "Progressive" alot.
Utracia
25-10-2006, 22:23
Goofballing aside, there are more similarities between Lincoln and Bush than between Lincoln and any other modern figures: Linocoln was responsible for a major inflation presidential powers, had no respect for the concept of "habeas corpus", accused anyone who spoke out against his methods of being a traitor, was accused of despotism, dragged the country through a depression, and sought to claim the Human Rights high-ground to put a bit of shine on a largely unpopular war years after the war had started.
The Civil War also saw the birth of war-profiteering and of inflicting civilian damage to your enemy.
Following this logic, Bush is going to go see Jackass 2 (since I doubt he'd be caught dead in a playhouse) and get shot by Johnny Knoxville (as a stunt for the sequel, you see). This will be followed by a decrease in presidential power as increasingly dickless presidents receive office and are promptly forgotten about for the next 3-5 decades until an adventurer figure shows up and says "Bully" and "Progressive" alot.

Wow. Goofballing aside, eh? :D

Those are some really good points though I don't see Bush ever taking the inititive to free slaves (never mind the selfish reasons Lincoln did so he still did it).
PsychoticDan
25-10-2006, 22:26
You ever read his article about peak oil (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/7203633/the_long_emergency)? That's some scary shit right there...

Yes, many times. He writes about it a lot.
Ultraextreme Sanity
25-10-2006, 22:27
Barack Obama and Abraham Lincoln.

Both tall males.
PsychoticDan
25-10-2006, 22:28
But that doesn't fit into music nearly as well as "Rich, White and Republican."
Which puts me on the broader issue, if Obama takes the presidency from Bush it would completely end the 6-year period of relevancy that my musical collection has enjoyed.

Goofballing aside, there are more similarities between Lincoln and Bush than between Lincoln and any other modern figures: Linocoln was responsible for a major inflation presidential powers, had no respect for the concept of "habeas corpus", accused anyone who spoke out against his methods of being a traitor, was accused of despotism, dragged the country through a depression, and sought to claim the Human Rights high-ground to put a bit of shine on a largely unpopular war years after the war had started.
The Civil War also saw the birth of war-profiteering and of inflicting civilian damage to your enemy.
Following this logic, Bush is going to go see Jackass 2 (since I doubt he'd be caught dead in a playhouse) and get shot by Johnny Knoxville (as a stunt for the sequel, you see). This will be followed by a decrease in presidential power as increasingly dickless presidents receive office and are promptly forgotten about for the next 3-5 decades until an adventurer figure shows up and says "Bully" and "Progressive" alot.

The comparison here is more along the lines of the points in history that the two emerged than between the kinds of presidents they were and would be, after all Obama has never been president. ;)
PsychoticDan
25-10-2006, 22:29
Both tall males.

Ditto above.
Utracia
25-10-2006, 22:30
Both tall males.

They are also both human. Don't forget that part.
Ultraextreme Sanity
25-10-2006, 22:33
H N Fiddlebottoms VIII



My favorite liberal ! aside from Bill Mahre...where have you been ?
H N Fiddlebottoms VIII
25-10-2006, 22:34
Those are some really good points though I don't see Bush ever taking the inititive to free slaves (never mind the selfish reasons Lincoln did so he still did it).
In this case, Slaves=Iraqis, both of which are being "freed" into an environment that is hostile and unsure.
It's actually pretty astonishing the number of similarities you can find between the two of them, which just further proves that Machiavelli was right: In the lens of history, the ends will always justify the means.
H N Fiddlebottoms VIII
25-10-2006, 22:38
They are also both human. Don't forget that part.
And they both had wives! OMG, it's like they're practically brothers!

My favorite liberal ! aside from Bill Mahre...where have you been ?
Liberal?
PsychoticDan
25-10-2006, 22:40
And they both had wives! OMG, it's like they're practically brothers!


Liberal?

Again, the article is not comparing the two men. It's the times in which they emerged.
Bunnyducks
25-10-2006, 22:46
Ha Ha

You spellt it all wrong! It's Clinton, not "Lincoln".

It's supposed to be: "Obama and Hillary Clinton"
PsychoticDan
25-10-2006, 22:50
Ha Ha

You spellt it all wrong! It's Clinton, not "Lincoln".

It's supposed to be: "Obama and Hillary Clinton"

That was a stupid thing to say. Why would you say that? Your reading comprehension skills leave a lot to be desired. The times that Hillary Clinton and Obama rose to prominence are exactly teh same time so there is no reason to make a comparison. :confused:
Utracia
25-10-2006, 22:51
And they both had wives! OMG, it's like they're practically brothers!

Stating the obvious can be so fun! :)
Bunnyducks
25-10-2006, 23:02
That was a stupid thing to say. Why would you say that? Your reading comprehension skills leave a lot to be desired. The times that Hillary Clinton and Obama rose to prominence are exactly teh same time so there is no reason to make a comparison. :confused:
Really?

Clinton and Lincoln sound the same to us barbarians. You just have to deal with my bad sense of humour, I guess.

Also, could you sound more tight-assed?!?
Fleckenstein
25-10-2006, 23:31
Neat.

When will he grow a beard on the whim of an 11 year old?
Vetalia
25-10-2006, 23:37
Ahh, JHK. I saw him in End of Suburbia yesterday. Rather interesting viewpoints, to say the least; I can't say I agree with him on everything, but he is very thought-provoking to say the least.

I've always like Barack Obama, and I think he could be an excellent presidential candidate if he were elected (not to mention a break from the past 200+ years of rich white presidents), and I see him as a really just all-around competent guy. All the more power to him if he runs; I'd vote for him.

Of course, it doesn't help that he has to clean up the mess that W has made...that's a tall order to say the least.
Kinda Sensible people
26-10-2006, 00:35
Heh. I get to see Obama speak tommorrow morning (assuming I can get a ride). It should be great. :)
Ultraextreme Sanity
26-10-2006, 00:38
And they both had wives! OMG, it's like they're practically brothers!


Liberal?


Private joke...think beer and guns :D