NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, my mother and I finally had The Talk. Not the "Birds and the Bees" talk or the "What the Fuck are You Going to Do With Your Life" talk or even the "Holy Crap, You're Addicted to Paint Thinner" talk. The "I Disown Thou" talk.

We were out eating with family when the conversation turned metaphysical. "Is there life in the universe" was the topic, I believe. I was trying to explain why I thought we were the only intelligence in the galaxy (if the universe). To put it super-simply: Some theorize that our universe is but one out of trillions, all with different physical laws. If the anthropic principle is right and life is rare, then this explains our improbable existence; the vast majority of universes lack the conditions necessary for life, and we are in one of the only ones that have it. Since universes are separated by eleven-dimensional space, we cannot see the other universes and assume we are special.

My mother hears this and stares. "You mean you believe in the Big Bang? You don't think God created the world?"

I tried explaining that, while I did believe in the Big Bang, I did not profess to know why or how it happened -- not even our greatest scientific minds know the answer. She ignored me, hurt in her eyes. She only heard what she wanted to hear -- or what she did not want to hear, rather.

"I can't believe it," she said, staring into the middle difference and shaking her head. "I spend my life raising my children in the Christian way, and look at how he turns out." She glared at me. "We're not talking about the science of man, here! We're talking about your eternal life! I'm going to get you a new Bible for Christmas, because you've lost your way." This is in front of family, mind you. "Just wait 'till I tell your grandmother about this. It'll break her heart." And on and on and on.

Yes, it's true. Apparently, even after years of me living with her, freely expressing my disapproval of Bush and the pseudo-Christian right, my own mother did not pick up on the fact that I'm not exactly a Bible-thumper. Nada más.

So, I feel like crap now. I am confident in my beliefs, definitely... but I got a clear message tonight that my mom has lost respect for me. More than that -- it hurt her. She feels let down. Disappointed. Like her life as a mother has been a failure. Like her son is going to Hell in a handbasket. In her world, that's a certainty.

Even though I knew that my mom was more or less a Fundy, I figured she would have at least a little bit of tolerance and restraint, especially for her own son. Apparently I wasn't listening all the times she railed against church-state separation and a balanced government. And "anti-Christians". Like me.

:headbang:

This is why I don't like religion. It tears people apart. Don't believe me? Take it from the head honcho hisself:

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law — a man's enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."

--Jesus Christ, Matthew 10:34-38

Now excuse me while I go lie down for awhile.

Even though I knew that my mom was more or less a Fundy, I figured she would have at least a little bit of tolerance and restraint, especially for her own son.

Well fuck, there's another poster I figured to be female who turns out to be a guy.

Anyway, that's pretty harsh. I can't say that my dad's been a breeze, as he's gone absolutely mental numerous times, and over much more trivial issues. All I can say is, stand firm, make your opinions known, and don't take shit from anyone. Not even your parents, because they're people, too.

Damn, sorry about your situation. Sometimes people just get so STUPID when it involves matters like these.

I'm sorry.

If I told my dad all the doubts I have about God, it would break his heart. So I feel your pain.

:fluffle:

Damn. I understand a lot of the sentiment, having (accidentally!) made my Roman Catholic mother shed a tear for something I may have said about Jesus, and had an uncomfortable moment when my dad realised I'd not put a mention of Catholic or other Christian faith anywhere on the census, but I'm not sure it ever got quite so far as this...

Possibly if you just... avoid the topic from now on it'll go away, as things sometimes do in families.

(But, on the other hand I don't really know what's already set in stone in your situation, nor would I want to tell you to give-up sharing of your (if I may say, superior) understanding of the universe in any setting.)

Frustrating, difficult (not like arguing with some stranger in the distance!), and, I dunno, best of luck with it, I suppose.

This is why I don't talk to my parents!

I have the same parents up here in minnesota

The only thing I was able to do is wait it out and avoid talking to them about it.
I dont care that they are catholic why do the religous seem so intrested in the fact that I am not

Thanks for the sentiments, people. I guess I will just leave it be for now. It'll be easier for me anyway, since I'm at college now (same town, but still).

I just hope she doesn't stoop as low as spreading this around other religious family members. Especially my grandma -- she's very sweet, and I love her dearly, but I'm not sure how she would take that. Hell, it hurt her feelings when she found out (via my mom) that I was against flag-burning legislation.

TANGENT AHEAD

(Just curious: why does everybody think I'm a girl? :confused:)

I dont care that they are catholic why do the religous seem so intrested in the fact that I am not
Depends on the person I guess. Some do it for zeal, some because they believe, some because misery loves company, and some because they actually care about you.

I feel your pain. My parents were pretty much agnostic and that's what I am. But my son ... I can't discuss religion with him - he gets upset because I can't believe in creationism or intelligent design - every discussion turns into an emotional (on his side angry, on my side frustrated) argument. I don't know how it happened. I'm an agnostic, my ex-husband is an agnostic, my daughter is an agnostic - everyone in my immediate family is agnostic - except my son. Where did I go wrong?

(Just curious: why does everybody think I'm a girl? :confused:)
The nickname I guess. Rhaomi just doesn't sound like a guy's name?

Well that sucks, When I started reading it I thought she disowned you for thinking we were the only inteligent life in the universe, I mean its pretty obvious there is NO inteligent life in the universe, and I was trying to think p a crack, but than you had to turn it into something all sympathetic and ruin it.:mad: In all serious that sucks man, this is why I avoid discussing religion at home well I don't think they would do anything that drastic but it an't worth the trouble, thats why religion is one of those things your not supose to discuss in polite company, so NSG is perfectly safe,;) it can to easily cause problems. Anyway hope you work things out.

That sucks. Though if she's going to buy you a bible for christmas, I don't think she's disowning you.
Basically, you'll have to very slowly and steadily show her that even though you're going to hell, you're a really decent person, and a really decent son. Seeing you as a good person will be the most convincing way to help her gain more of an open mind. And you can do that without compromizing your beliefs.


On another note, there is a very good chance that other inteligent life (similar to ourselves) exists in this particular universe, under these particular laws of physics. It's a simple calculation. There are millions of other planets out there much like Earth. If only a tiny fraction of these happened to undergo the unusual chances that led to life here (this is discounting radically different forms of life that we can't invision) there would probably be many thousands that either sustained, or do sustain life. I always find it incredibly self-absorbed and frankly puzzling when people claim that we must be the only ones when common sense indicates otherwise.

oh - about the girl thing - I think there was a girl with a similar name here a while ago that enjoyed posting pictures of herself (she was rather pretty) and watching the snot-nosed adolescents around here fall over themselves complimenting her. I was convinced you *were* her (though I was surprised about the drastic change in style) up until this point.

I guess I'm lucky that I grew up in a fairly liberal household where it was not a problem that I was an agnostic. Neither parent ever expressed any problem with my religious choice (in fact, when it came up in discussion, my father informed me that he would be proud of me, even if I were a Satanist, so long as I was a good person). We did have some issues when I went through my "Religion sucks" phase, but they were wholey (heh) my fault.

You know what will make it better? Intentionally getting caught in bed with a girl who has too many tattoos to count. Or another guy.

Just kidding/trying to demonstrate that it could be worse.

I guess all you can really do is try to be a good person and prove that being a fundamentalist isn't necessary to being such.

I'm glad that I'm the son of religious moderates (a liberal Catholic and a Unitarian Universalist), and the grandson of atheists/agnostics. Makes it easy to be something other than Christian.

Thanks for the sentiments, people. I guess I will just leave it be for now. It'll be easier for me anyway, since I'm at college now (same town, but still).

I just hope she doesn't stoop as low as spreading this around other religious family members. Especially my grandma -- she's very sweet, and I love her dearly, but I'm not sure how she would take that. Hell, it hurt her feelings when she found out (via my mom) that I was against flag-burning legislation.

TANGENT AHEAD

That really sucks. Fortunately for me, my parents aren't exactly the religious type; the say they identify as christian, but they don't pray at meals or go to church or teach me religion. My grandmothers are much more religious, though.

I don't really discuss anything of a philosophical bent with any of them, so it doesn't really come up.

(Just curious: why does everybody think I'm a girl? :confused:)

Happens to me too ...

So, I feel like crap now. I am confident in my beliefs, definitely... but I got a clear message tonight that my mom has lost respect for me. More than that -- it hurt her. She feels let down. Disappointed. Like her life as a mother has been a failure. Like her son is going to Hell in a handbasket. In her world, that's a certainty.

Even though I knew that my mom was more or less a Fundy, I figured she would have at least a little bit of tolerance and restraint, especially for her own son. Apparently I wasn't listening all the times she railed against church-state separation and a balanced government. And "anti-Christians".

Try not to worry too much about it. What you described is similar to coming out as gay. You've had your whole life to come to terms with it, but your family hasn't (even with the obvious clues). Give them time. They'll eventually come around and accept you for who you are.

And don't pretend to be someone you aren't for family harmony. Part of becoming an adult is being true to yourself. And she will learn that part of being a parent is realizing that her children aren't mirrors for her own hopes and dreams. Give it time.

When I was married, I made sure not to even mention religion to my fundamentalist in-laws. This is probably why I never felt comfortable around them. I just couldn't be myself. It'd really suck not being yourself around your own family. :(

Well fuck, there's another poster I figured to be female who turns out to be a guy.

Anyway, that's pretty harsh. I can't say that my dad's been a breeze, as he's gone absolutely mental numerous times, and over much more trivial issues. All I can say is, stand firm, make your opinions known, and don't take shit from anyone. Not even your parents, because they're people, too.
Didn't people think you were a gal?:p

Dont you dare take your lordy's name in vain!

www.blog.delfi.ee/files/i/lordi.preview.jpg

Well, my mother and I finally had The Talk. Not the "Birds and the Bees" talk or the "What the Fuck are You Going to Do With Your Life" talk or even the "Holy Crap, You're Addicted to Paint Thinner" talk. The "I Disown Thou" talk.

We were out eating with family when the conversation turned metaphysical. "Is there life in the universe" was the topic, I believe. I was trying to explain why I thought we were the only intelligence in the galaxy (if the universe). To put it super-simply: Some theorize that our universe is but one out of trillions, all with different physical laws. If the anthropic principle is right and life is rare, then this explains our improbable existence; the vast majority of universes lack the conditions necessary for life, and we are in one of the only ones that have it. Since universes are separated by eleven-dimensional space, we cannot see the other universes and assume we are special.

My mother hears this and stares. "You mean you believe in the Big Bang? You don't think God created the world?"

I tried explaining that, while I did believe in the Big Bang, I did not profess to know why or how it happened -- not even our greatest scientific minds know the answer. She ignored me, hurt in her eyes. She only heard what she wanted to hear -- or what she did not want to hear, rather.

"I can't believe it," she said, staring into the middle difference and shaking her head. "I spend my life raising my children in the Christian way, and look at how he turns out." She glared at me. "We're not talking about the science of man, here! We're talking about your eternal life! I'm going to get you a new Bible for Christmas, because you've lost your way." This is in front of family, mind you. "Just wait 'till I tell your grandmother about this. It'll break her heart." And on and on and on.

Yes, it's true. Apparently, even after years of me living with her, freely expressing my disapproval of Bush and the pseudo-Christian right, my own mother did not pick up on the fact that I'm not exactly a Bible-thumper. Nada más.

So, I feel like crap now. I am confident in my beliefs, definitely... but I got a clear message tonight that my mom has lost respect for me. More than that -- it hurt her. She feels let down. Disappointed. Like her life as a mother has been a failure. Like her son is going to Hell in a handbasket. In her world, that's a certainty.

Even though I knew that my mom was more or less a Fundy, I figured she would have at least a little bit of tolerance and restraint, especially for her own son. Apparently I wasn't listening all the times she railed against church-state separation and a balanced government. And "anti-Christians". Like me.

:headbang:

well you know it yourself - your mother is being unreasonable. simple as that. i guess you could try to explain it to her once this has calmed down that you're entitled to believe what you want, and that your inquisitiveness and open-minded thinking to look past the boundaries of your upbringing is far from a failure on her part, but quite the opposite.

This is why I don't like religion. It tears people apart. Don't believe me? Take it from the head honcho hisself:

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law — a man's enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."

--Jesus Christ, Matthew 10:34-38[

well fuck that, and him. if the fictional dead-guy shows to me why he's worthy of my worship, then sure. but i will not love him more than my family or the real people in my life :upyours:

Matthew was a dickhead. *nod*

Matthew was a dickhead. *nod*

Why aren't all Christians like you?

Why aren't all Christians like you?

I wish I knew. :(

Matthew was a dickhead. *nod*

lol

This is why I don't talk to my parents!

hehe me too, but then again neither of us are deluded by religion, we find other things.

I wish I knew. :(

Maybe you should try baptising them in sanctified mud. ;)

I've been breaking my parents into it for an awful long time. It's been years, increasing reluctance to go to church, providing several very potent philosophical excuses (that actually work) and multiple other things.

Well fuck, there's another poster I figured to be female who turns out to be a guy.
iDitto.
This is why I don't talk to my parents!
I wouldn't talk to them, but I live with them 2 days a week, so it's kinda hard not to. I'm pretty good at it though.

Maybe you should try baptising them in sanctified mud. ;)

Couldn't hurt. :)

Well, my mother and I finally had The Talk. Not the "Birds and the Bees" talk or the "What the Fuck are You Going to Do With Your Life" talk or even the "Holy Crap, You're Addicted to Paint Thinner" talk. The "I Disown Thou" talk.

We were out eating with family when the conversation turned metaphysical. "Is there life in the universe" was the topic, I believe. I was trying to explain why I thought we were the only intelligence in the galaxy (if the universe). To put it super-simply: Some theorize that our universe is but one out of trillions, all with different physical laws. If the anthropic principle is right and life is rare, then this explains our improbable existence; the vast majority of universes lack the conditions necessary for life, and we are in one of the only ones that have it. Since universes are separated by eleven-dimensional space, we cannot see the other universes and assume we are special.

My mother hears this and stares. "You mean you believe in the Big Bang? You don't think God created the world?"

I tried explaining that, while I did believe in the Big Bang, I did not profess to know why or how it happened -- not even our greatest scientific minds know the answer. She ignored me, hurt in her eyes. She only heard what she wanted to hear -- or what she did not want to hear, rather.

"I can't believe it," she said, staring into the middle difference and shaking her head. "I spend my life raising my children in the Christian way, and look at how he turns out." She glared at me. "We're not talking about the science of man, here! We're talking about your eternal life! I'm going to get you a new Bible for Christmas, because you've lost your way." This is in front of family, mind you. "Just wait 'till I tell your grandmother about this. It'll break her heart." And on and on and on.

Yes, it's true. Apparently, even after years of me living with her, freely expressing my disapproval of Bush and the pseudo-Christian right, my own mother did not pick up on the fact that I'm not exactly a Bible-thumper. Nada más.

So, I feel like crap now. I am confident in my beliefs, definitely... but I got a clear message tonight that my mom has lost respect for me. More than that -- it hurt her. She feels let down. Disappointed. Like her life as a mother has been a failure. Like her son is going to Hell in a handbasket. In her world, that's a certainty.

Even though I knew that my mom was more or less a Fundy, I figured she would have at least a little bit of tolerance and restraint, especially for her own son. Apparently I wasn't listening all the times she railed against church-state separation and a balanced government. And "anti-Christians". Like me.

:headbang:

This is why I don't like religion. It tears people apart. Don't believe me? Take it from the head honcho hisself:

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law — a man's enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."

--Jesus Christ, Matthew 10:34-38

Now excuse me while I go lie down for awhile.
God: JESUS CHRIST!

Jesus: What?!

God: Get the Escalade! We're outta here!

...anyway...

I feel for yah, Rhaomi. The most I ever have to deal with is my dad finding it incredibly hard to believe I could deny any sort of spirituality in my life. (He doesn't care what: he just wants me to "accept" the spiritual part of my life. He doesn't understand the fact that people don't have to have one if they don't want to.)

Quick, tell her you're gay just to fuck with her!

My father is a born again christian, my mother, and apparently everyone on her side of the family are atheists.

Dear ol' dad has periods when he's all religious, then he's not. Depends on what scam he's working.

Thanks for the sentiments, people. I guess I will just leave it be for now. It'll be easier for me anyway, since I'm at college now (same town, but still).

I just hope she doesn't stoop as low as spreading this around other religious family members. Especially my grandma -- she's very sweet, and I love her dearly, but I'm not sure how she would take that. Hell, it hurt her feelings when she found out (via my mom) that I was against flag-burning legislation.

TANGENT AHEAD

(Just curious: why does everybody think I'm a girl? :confused:)

sorry, but if you truly want to mend fences, you need to use tact. get her talking about the big bang theory... and ask her this. Could not God, when creating light, and seperating the filament of the world, have caused what scientist call the Big Bang?

then follow up with Genesis. ask her, for a being as timeless as God, how long is a day to God? 24 hours? 24 years? 24 centures? 24 eons?

ask her about the Dinosaurs. "granted they are not mentioned in the bible, so where did they come from... Satan? he corrupts, he is less than God, right? so he cannot create.... thus either the Fossil records prove that satan is God's equal... which I don't Believe... or God used what scientist call Evolution to create life on earth." basically, you don't argue "Either or" but you argue that Science does not, and cannot disprove God but Science examines God's miracles.

then touch back on your point about intelligent life. say if we are truly alone, that makes us unique. a world that God made just for us. but if there is others out there, then all that shows is that God made other worlds for us to join in with fellowship.

you never bash the faith of a fundy. you'll have an easier time breaking rocks with a cardboard hammer. but you just give it a couple of nudges, using the Bible to show where it does not discount what science has found... and show where science does not disprove God's exsistance.

iDitto.

I wouldn't talk to them, but I live with them 2 days a week, so it's kinda hard not to. I'm pretty good at it though.

I live with my parents 24/7/365.

I hardly ever talk to them.

Though religion isn't much of a topic they talk about, even though they are catholic..

It sounds like your parents are real fundamentalists... and you didn't know.

I mean, if you knew they were the sort to think God created the earth 6000 years ago, then I think they did a really crappy job of indoctrinating you. Not only do you not share their beliefs, but you didn't even knw what they were.

Don't feel bad. This is entirely their fault.

snip

Welcome to the club. My mother and I have fights 24/7 for stupider reasons than that, though.

The fact that your mom is basing her entire self-worth on whether or not you believe in God says a lot more about her than it does about you. Then again, if I firmly believed that anybody who didn't think and do certain things was going to someplace like Hell, I'd be upset if I thought my child was also going there. At any rate, it's not your fault. Here are the characteristics of people who have reached "self-actualization" (the top of Maslow's hierarchy of needs):

1. Perceive reality accurately. Not defensive in their perceptions of the world
2. An acceptance of themselves, others, and nature. The AA Serenity prayer. Acceptance not same as happiness.
3. Spontaneity, simplicity, & naturalness. Do not live programmed lives.
4. Problem-centered. Possibly the most important characteristic. SAs have a sense of mission to which they dedicate their lives. Einstein once said "the man who regards his life as meaningless is not merely unhappy, but hardly fit for life".
5. Like privacy & detachment. Enjoy being alone; can reflect on events.
6. Freshness of appreciation. Don't take life for granted.
7. Mystic or peak experiences. A peak experience is a moment of intense ecstasy, similar to a religious or mystical experience, during which the self is transcended. More currently, Mihaly Csikzentmihalyi developed the term "flow experience" to describe times when people become so totally involved in what they are doing that they forget all sense of time and awareness of self.
8. Social Interest. Similar to Adler.
9. Profound interpersonal relationships. SAs tend to attract admirers or disciples.
10. Democratic character structure. SAs display little racial, religious, or social prejudice.
11. Creative. Especially in managing their lives.
12. Resistance to Enculturation - SAs are autonomous, independent and self-sufficient.

Other Characteristics of SAs - from different writings.

1. Philosophical sense of humor. SAs can laugh at the absurdities of life & don't take themselves too seriously. Compare Bob Hope or Bill Cosby with Richard Prior or George Carlin.
2. Transcendence of Culture. SAs can overcome the pathologies of their culture.
3. Personal Integrity. SAs are basically simple in psychological lives. "What you see is what you get".
4. Transcendence of Dichotomies. SAs transcend typical dichotomies such as work/play.

I'm nowhere near that, but I'm trying. One of the things is that you need to be able to detach yourself from other people's problems while not forgoing intimate relationships. Forgive your mother and reach out to her anyway. Offer your love but don't allow her to bully you into changing your way of thinking or lying to her about the way you think...you'll end up acting more "Christian" than she is right now.

The fact that your mom is basing her entire self-worth on whether or not you believe in God says a lot more about her than it does about you. Then again, if I firmly believed that anybody who didn't think and do certain things was going to someplace like Hell, I'd be upset if I thought my child was also going there. At any rate, it's not your fault. Here are the characteristics of people who have reached "self-actualization" (the top of Maslow's hierarchy of needs):

1. Perceive reality accurately. Not defensive in their perceptions of the world
2. An acceptance of themselves, others, and nature. The AA Serenity prayer. Acceptance not same as happiness.
3. Spontaneity, simplicity, & naturalness. Do not live programmed lives.
4. Problem-centered. Possibly the most important characteristic. SAs have a sense of mission to which they dedicate their lives. Einstein once said "the man who regards his life as meaningless is not merely unhappy, but hardly fit for life".
5. Like privacy & detachment. Enjoy being alone; can reflect on events.
6. Freshness of appreciation. Don't take life for granted.
7. Mystic or peak experiences. A peak experience is a moment of intense ecstasy, similar to a religious or mystical experience, during which the self is transcended. More currently, Mihaly Csikzentmihalyi developed the term "flow experience" to describe times when people become so totally involved in what they are doing that they forget all sense of time and awareness of self.
8. Social Interest. Similar to Adler.
9. Profound interpersonal relationships. SAs tend to attract admirers or disciples.
10. Democratic character structure. SAs display little racial, religious, or social prejudice.
11. Creative. Especially in managing their lives.
12. Resistance to Enculturation - SAs are autonomous, independent and self-sufficient.

Other Characteristics of SAs - from different writings.

1. Philosophical sense of humor. SAs can laugh at the absurdities of life & don't take themselves too seriously. Compare Bob Hope or Bill Cosby with Richard Prior or George Carlin.
2. Transcendence of Culture. SAs can overcome the pathologies of their culture.
3. Personal Integrity. SAs are basically simple in psychological lives. "What you see is what you get".
4. Transcendence of Dichotomies. SAs transcend typical dichotomies such as work/play.

I'm nowhere near that, but I'm trying. One of the things is that you need to be able to detach yourself from other people's problems while not forgoing intimate relationships. Forgive your mother and reach out to her anyway. Offer your love but don't allow her to bully you into changing your way of thinking or lying to her about the way you think...you'll end up acting more "Christian" than she is right now.
Wow. That sounds like me, to an extent. Of course, I'm only nineteen, so I'm hardly fully actualized. But I do believe I am somewhat close.

(Just curious: why does everybody think I'm a girl? :confused:)

I would guess because Rhaomi rhymes with Naomi, which is a girl's name. Subconscious reaction. ;-)

Wow. That sounds like me, to an extent. Of course, I'm only nineteen, so I'm hardly fully actualized. But I do believe I am somewhat close.

Wow, good for you! I don't think age matters so much on that...just whether your other needs on the hierarchy are met. However, I am wondering if I detect a disturbing loophole. Narcissism is basically the exact opposite of self-actualization...is saying that you're self-actualized a narcissistic act, thereby proving that you're NOT self-actualized?

I guess just saying it wouldn't do that, one would have to look at a person's life and actions to determine that sort of thing. Never mind! :cool:

I would guess because Rhaomi rhymes with Naomi, which is a girl's name. Subconscious reaction. ;-)

Ack!

I already went through that talk with my mom on the first anniversary of my Yaya's (grandmother's) death. I was sixteen (I think) at the time, and I told my mother flat out that I refuse to go to church. She wanted me to go with her, my aunt and cousins so that we could "honour" the memory of Yaya. The stupid this is, according to my dad, my mother is the least religious person he knows.

Anyway, so, I told her I refused to go and that I didn't believe in God. She then turns to me and tells me that this is not what I believe; I cannot believe that because it is wrong. She goes on to tell me that I am an agnostic and I need to go to church to see the truth...

Then there's my boyfriend who for three years (though finally did this in September much to his fucking credit), told his parents to shove the Judaism bullshit.

He would whine to me but refused to tell his parents and now they suspect that I influenced their little boy's beliefs and made him into an atheist.

They apparently had a big fight; I know his mom was really upset (I think she had her heart set on me converting to their religion just so her little boy could get married in a synagogue so that the grandchildren would be Jewish...)

And my dad? He doesn't give a rat's ass that I think religion is total BS; he told me himself that it is and I believe he's glad I'm an atheist...

Rhaomi, most of us have been down that road before...

Ack!Now do you understand why I'm so paranoid? :p

Now do you understand why I'm so paranoid? :p

Because it's easier to believe the world is conspiring against you simply because they are all out to get you for the single purpose of making to uber paranoid?

Now do you understand why I'm so paranoid? :p

It certainly gave me a jolt.

Wow, good for you! I don't think age matters so much on that...just whether your other needs on the hierarchy are met. However, I am wondering if I detect a disturbing loophole. Narcissism is basically the exact opposite of self-actualization...is saying that you're self-actualized a narcissistic act, thereby proving that you're NOT self-actualized?

I guess just saying it wouldn't do that, one would have to look at a person's life and actions to determine that sort of thing. Never mind! :cool:

That would be why I said I was somewhat there. I'm worried I may still be a wee bit narcissist and/or depressive in certain instances, although it might just be acceptable human nature even for self-actualized people. I dunno. I'd have to research it, as I have yet to do so.

It certainly gave me a jolt.

Like the kind of rush you can only get from Jolt Cola? :D

Like the kind of rush you can only get from Jolt Cola? :D

More like the kind of rush you get from visiting NSG without jolt being down again.

That would be why I said I was somewhat there. I'm worried I may still be a wee bit narcissist and/or depressive in certain instances, although it might just be acceptable human nature even for self-actualized people. I dunno. I'd have to research it, as I have yet to do so.

I think the only research you could do on that would be in Maslow's writings. Since the definition of self-actualization is entirely his baby, and therefore pretty freaking subjective, you won't find too many research studies on "self-actualized people."

Like the kind of rush you can only get from Jolt Cola? :D

It was like the rush I get when I hear a serial killer is on the loose in my neighborhood. The kind where you go lock the doors and close the blinds and hunker down in a corner with a bat.

I think the only research you could do on that would be in Maslow's writings. Since the definition of self-actualization is entirely his baby, and therefore pretty freaking subjective, you won't find too many research studies on "self-actualized people."
A good point there. Ah well. Right now, I'm not too worried about research anyway.

score, my parents are agnostic at best

sorry, but if you truly want to mend fences, you need to use tact. get her talking about the big bang theory... and ask her this. Could not God, when creating light, and seperating the filament of the world, have caused what scientist call the Big Bang?
While clever, this line of thought wouldn't work. She's a hardline fundy... everything the Bible says is literally true to her. So, "God said" means God spoke vocally, "seven days" means seven twenty-four hour periods, and "God made Adam from the earth" means he literally took a clod of dirt and turned it into a human. I'm surprised she hasn't contested the existence of dinosaurs, seeing as they're not mentioned in the Good Book.

It sounds like your parents are real fundamentalists... and you didn't know.
First of all, it's just my mom. My Dad is more of a lay Catholic (as lay as you can get without being agnostic, really), and she hates his guts. They're divorced, btw.

Also, I knew she was like this. I just didn't think that she'd be so intolerant and confrontational.

I would guess because Rhaomi rhymes with Naomi, which is a girl's name. Subconscious reaction. ;-)
Heh, I guess that 'splains it. Although, I always thought of it as being pronounced "ROW-mee" ("row" as in "cow"). :p

I just didn't think that she'd be so intolerant and confrontational.
She's not really being intolerant - it's not like she's standing on a street corner with a big placard. She's your mother, and she's worried about you because you're going to Hell.

Think about it. Given her beliefs (which are very strong), the only possible result of your lack of faith is eternal damnation. She doesn't want that for her son, so naturally she's upset.
Heh, I guess that 'splains it. Although, I always thought of it as being pronounced "ROW-mee" ("row" as in "cow"). :p
So like that female character in that Lisa Kudrow/Mira Sorvino movie (Romy & Michelle's something-or-other).
I'm surprised she hasn't contested the existence of dinosaurs, seeing as they're not mentioned in the Good Book.
Funny you'd mention that. When the Seattle Mariners signed Carl Everett (outspoken fundamentalist) last offseason, some fans had t-shirts made which said "Gay Paleontologists created our Designated Hitter".

So like that female character in that Lisa Kudrow/Mira Sorvino movie (Romy & Michelle's something-or-other).
:headbang:

Well, my mother and I finally had The Talk. Not the "Birds and the Bees" talk or the "What the Fuck are You Going to Do With Your Life" talk or even the "Holy Crap, You're Addicted to Paint Thinner" talk. The "I Disown Thou" talk.

We were out eating with family when the conversation turned metaphysical. "Is there life in the universe" was the topic, I believe. I was trying to explain why I thought we were the only intelligence in the galaxy (if the universe). To put it super-simply: Some theorize that our universe is but one out of trillions, all with different physical laws. If the anthropic principle is right and life is rare, then this explains our improbable existence; the vast majority of universes lack the conditions necessary for life, and we are in one of the only ones that have it. Since universes are separated by eleven-dimensional space, we cannot see the other universes and assume we are special.

My mother hears this and stares. "You mean you believe in the Big Bang? You don't think God created the world?"

I tried explaining that, while I did believe in the Big Bang, I did not profess to know why or how it happened -- not even our greatest scientific minds know the answer. She ignored me, hurt in her eyes. She only heard what she wanted to hear -- or what she did not want to hear, rather.

"I can't believe it," she said, staring into the middle difference and shaking her head. "I spend my life raising my children in the Christian way, and look at how he turns out." She glared at me. "We're not talking about the science of man, here! We're talking about your eternal life! I'm going to get you a new Bible for Christmas, because you've lost your way." This is in front of family, mind you. "Just wait 'till I tell your grandmother about this. It'll break her heart." And on and on and on.

Yes, it's true. Apparently, even after years of me living with her, freely expressing my disapproval of Bush and the pseudo-Christian right, my own mother did not pick up on the fact that I'm not exactly a Bible-thumper. Nada más.

So, I feel like crap now. I am confident in my beliefs, definitely... but I got a clear message tonight that my mom has lost respect for me. More than that -- it hurt her. She feels let down. Disappointed. Like her life as a mother has been a failure. Like her son is going to Hell in a handbasket. In her world, that's a certainty.

Even though I knew that my mom was more or less a Fundy, I figured she would have at least a little bit of tolerance and restraint, especially for her own son. Apparently I wasn't listening all the times she railed against church-state separation and a balanced government. And "anti-Christians". Like me.

:headbang:

This is why I don't like religion. It tears people apart. Don't believe me? Take it from the head honcho hisself:

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law — a man's enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."

--Jesus Christ, Matthew 10:34-38

Now excuse me while I go lie down for awhile.

WTF!??

I gotta feel for you, man. Personally I hate religious people, especially Christian fundies. But your own mom disowned you!?? Just for that?? God damn, what's the world coming to??

Take your anger out on the nearest heavy bag.

Or me.

OP snipped

ach, don't worry about it, she'll take you back. how old are you btw? and how alone is your mum? cuz when you move away from home, if you're still disowned she'll start to blame herself and beg to see you again. my mum's disowned me loads of times. the first time for renouncing her religion. the second time for telling her i was bi (well actually she tried to persuade me i was confused that time, but she recently challenged me as to why i didn't have a girlfriend, asking me "do you even liked girls?" with such venom in her eyes i had to leave the house and get drunk). the third time for telling her that my only ambition was to be a drifter. the fourth time for telling her i was going to move to NZ at the earliest oppotunity, because everyone she knows who moved there did so to avoid specific family members. Even fundy mothers feel love. you just have to make them realise once you move out that they've invested too much emotion in you to disown you.

I'm actually the most religious person in my family, so I don't have this kind of problem. How about you suggest to her that G-d set off the Big Bang?

While clever, this line of thought wouldn't work. She's a hardline fundy... everything the Bible says is literally true to her. So, "God said" means God spoke vocally, "seven days" means seven twenty-four hour periods, and "God made Adam from the earth" means he literally took a clod of dirt and turned it into a human. I'm surprised she hasn't contested the existence of dinosaurs, seeing as they're not mentioned in the Good Book.

if you knew that and you still said what you said.... sorry, but it's your own fault.

if you knew that and you still said what you said.... sorry, but it's your own fault.
That is rather insensitive don't you think?

Rhaomi, I hope your mother and the rest of your family comes around. I've known families where similar situations have occurred. Sometimes, there is never any reconciliation, but other times the family moves past it, mostly anyway. It is very hard for people to hate their family, to hate people they've loved their whole lives.

Food for thought, though:
The great mysterious and joys of life lie not in its realization, but in its experience.
The origins of life mean nothing if, in seeking them, you create a life not worth living.

sorry, but if you truly want to mend fences, you need to use tact. get her talking about the big bang theory... and ask her this. Could not God, when creating light, and seperating the filament of the world, have caused what scientist call the Big Bang?
Techincally speaking, The universe is merely energy; matter is just energy that has been converted (E/c^2=m)

However, I don't think the soluation to this issue is to just lay down and say "Blah god didit" just to apses someone.

Personally, I think this concept of creation is a bit silly; want makes use think that the universe we live in is just the current version of infinity other universes, before and after ours? What makes you think that time has to be a stright arrow?

Think out side the box; before it folds you out of extesence

That is rather insensitive don't you think?

Rhaomi, I hope your mother and the rest of your family comes around. I've known families where similar situations have occurred. Sometimes, there is never any reconciliation, but other times the family moves past it, mostly anyway. It is very hard for people to hate their family, to hate people they've loved their whole lives.

Food for thought, though:
The great mysterious and joys of life lie not in its realization, but in its experience.
The origins of life mean nothing if, in seeking them, you create a life not worth living.yes, it may seem insensitive, but also realize, if he knew this of his mother, then any percieved challange to the wonder's of God's work will be met with a return challange.

you can open dialogue but realise that his parents has the right to be firm in their beliefs as Rhaomi can be with his.

the question is, Will Rhaomi test the bonds of family? and how does he go about it. he can assume that his mother will be pig headed and not listen to him, or he can attempt, not to confront their beliefs, but show them that he is taking the lessions in the bible seriously. by countering their beliefs with scriptures in the bible, (not necessarily showing off the conflicts within the Bible... a no no but showing that he is studing the bible) he may find that some fears will be removed from his mother. which is why I encouraged Rhaomi to discuss the bible with his mother.

However, his reply...
While clever, this line of thought wouldn't work. She's a hardline fundy... everything the Bible says is literally true to her. So, "God said" means God spoke vocally, "seven days" means seven twenty-four hour periods, and "God made Adam from the earth" means he literally took a clod of dirt and turned it into a human. I'm surprised she hasn't contested the existence of dinosaurs, seeing as they're not mentioned in the Good Book.
placed her in the position that she is unmoving in her views. and if he knew this, then any challange he makes is his fault (intentional or not.)

which is why I suggested, ok "God said 'Let there be light' and there was, and the light is good." now... (discuss with her) in what manner did this light come into being? a slow gradual glow? or a flash and there it is? neither method is said, but later, God does create twilight and Dawn... hinting that the light he brought forth was indeed, a sudden flash... or bang. discuss this simple process that brought light forth in a non confrontational way and you start the process of getting a fundy out of fundimentalism...

and how Rhaomi presents it will either encourage discussion or an argument... that is the important part. Rhaomi does need to take responsibility as well as the consiquences of what he says. Just like we expect his mother to take responsibility and the consiquensces of what she says.

Tact and understanding is Rhaomi's greatest weapons right now. what he needs is suggestions and encouragement right now.

Techincally speaking, The universe is merely energy; matter is just energy that has been converted (E/c^2=m) and how does that prove that God didn't cause it to be?

Gunpowder is saltpeter, potassium nitrate or sodium nitrate charcoal and sulfur... that just proves what it is, it doesn't prove that a maker is or is not involved.

However, I don't think the soluation to this issue is to just lay down and say "Blah god didit" just to apses someone.that's up to Rhaomi. However, can you prove through science that God didn't create the universe, and all that we are unraviling is the 'how' and not the 'who'?

Personally, I think this concept of creation is a bit silly; want makes use think that the universe we live in is just the current version of infinity other universes, before and after ours? What makes you think that time has to be a stright arrow?Creationism... not ID, but literal biblical creationism is rather silly. but Belief is close to a person's heart. to challange that takes Tact and understanding. a wrong move and a irreparable rift will form between people. and that is truely sad.

Think out side the box; before it folds you out of extesenceand what is outside the box? how do you know that the step you're taking is not acutally deeper into the box?

for something dealing with Philosophy, metaphysical, and super natural, the box isn't as clearly defined as you percieve it to be. ;)

Well, my mother and I finally had The Talk. Not the "Birds and the Bees" talk or the "What the Fuck are You Going to Do With Your Life" talk or even the "Holy Crap, You're Addicted to Paint Thinner" talk. The "I Disown Thou" talk.

We were out eating with family when the conversation turned metaphysical. "Is there life in the universe" was the topic, I believe. I was trying to explain why I thought we were the only intelligence in the galaxy (if the universe). To put it super-simply: Some theorize that our universe is but one out of trillions, all with different physical laws. If the anthropic principle is right and life is rare, then this explains our improbable existence; the vast majority of universes lack the conditions necessary for life, and we are in one of the only ones that have it. Since universes are separated by eleven-dimensional space, we cannot see the other universes and assume we are special.

My mother hears this and stares. "You mean you believe in the Big Bang? You don't think God created the world?"

I tried explaining that, while I did believe in the Big Bang, I did not profess to know why or how it happened -- not even our greatest scientific minds know the answer. She ignored me, hurt in her eyes. She only heard what she wanted to hear -- or what she did not want to hear, rather.

"I can't believe it," she said, staring into the middle difference and shaking her head. "I spend my life raising my children in the Christian way, and look at how he turns out." She glared at me. "We're not talking about the science of man, here! We're talking about your eternal life! I'm going to get you a new Bible for Christmas, because you've lost your way." This is in front of family, mind you. "Just wait 'till I tell your grandmother about this. It'll break her heart." And on and on and on.

Yes, it's true. Apparently, even after years of me living with her, freely expressing my disapproval of Bush and the pseudo-Christian right, my own mother did not pick up on the fact that I'm not exactly a Bible-thumper. Nada más.

So, I feel like crap now. I am confident in my beliefs, definitely... but I got a clear message tonight that my mom has lost respect for me. More than that -- it hurt her. She feels let down. Disappointed. Like her life as a mother has been a failure. Like her son is going to Hell in a handbasket. In her world, that's a certainty.

Even though I knew that my mom was more or less a Fundy, I figured she would have at least a little bit of tolerance and restraint, especially for her own son. Apparently I wasn't listening all the times she railed against church-state separation and a balanced government. And "anti-Christians". Like me.

:headbang:

This is why I don't like religion. It tears people apart. Don't believe me? Take it from the head honcho hisself:

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law — a man's enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."

--Jesus Christ, Matthew 10:34-38

Now excuse me while I go lie down for awhile.

You should have seen the look on my mothers face and then the tongue lashing I received when I suggested that perhaps gays being able to get married is not such a bad thing. That there may be a bit of a contradiction between the vengeance of God and the mercy of God. And so on and so on.

It certainly gave me a jolt.Oh, you should have seen me on Monday. I set my Facebook status on "is a statistic" to be funny on Sunday. Then I read my horoscope in the college newspaper on Monday: "Who wants to be a statistic..." :eek:

that's up to Rhaomi. However, can you prove through science that God didn't create the universe, and all that we are unraviling is the 'how' and not the 'who'?

You cannot prove the existence of god ether; and occam's razor applies; there is no God.

Surely you realize that God is just a Deux Machina for people?

Cause god did it.

Creationism... not ID, but literal biblical creationism is rather silly. but Belief is close to a person's heart. to challange that takes Tact and understanding. a wrong move and a irreparable rift will form between people. and that is truely sad.
You shouldn't have lie about what you believe just because someone else believes differentally and they can't handle it.

and what is outside the box? how do you know that the step you're taking is not acutally deeper into the box?

for something dealing with Philosophy, metaphysical, and super natural, the box isn't as clearly defined as you percieve it to be. ;)
The Box is a metaphor for the ideas and 'theories' that still live on into the 21th century, like Flat Earth, creationism, Supersetions, ghosts, and everything else from the dark ages.

What's outside the box? the truth. and possibly many higher dimensions.

Cheers.

It's always a good day when your parents disown you. It means you don't have to feel obligated to see them anymore.

Sorry to hear about this, but it is not really surprising at all (which you believe as well, I think, since you call it "The Talk", making it a less coincidental concept). Let me quote a few parts of your post in order to clarify my reflections on it.

"I can't believe it," she said, staring into the middle difference and shaking her head. "I spend my life raising my children in the Christian way, and look at how he turns out." She glared at me. "We're not talking about the science of man, here! We're talking about your eternal life! I'm going to get you a new Bible for Christmas, because you've lost your way." This is in front of family, mind you. "Just wait 'till I tell your grandmother about this. It'll break her heart." And on and on and on.

The good news: your mother spend her life raising her child in the Christian way, and look how you turned out! As a non-believer of what your parents thought you! That means that other more or less fundamental beliefs are by no means absolutely hereditary. (So sons and daughters of nazis won't be automatically inclined to gas particular peoples, sons of fundamental muslims won't automatically feel justified to rape girls because they look sexy, etc.) I know it doesn't feel too good for you given the context in which this happened, but think about the repercussions. It's a testament to the free will you accumulated through your life experience (education, friends, things you read, etc.) In effect, she paid you a compliment on how you reflect on the world.
The bad news: for the moment, she's not mad at you, but as you rightly put it, disappointed. That always happens between parents and children at one time (mostly more than one time). And, as other posters rightly pointed out, it mostly automatically solves itself as the both of you grow older. She has to recognize at some point that the values she taught you are not lost forever because you don't implicitly believe in her metaphysical point of view. If, however, she insists in this disappointed point of view, if she insists that the definition of "your value" is directly linked to your belief system, then the fault lies with her and not with you. I would advise against trying to argue with her on a metaphysical level, as it will only make things worse I think, but I would however advise that you go about your way using the values you hold dear (and which were also "socialised" upon you by your parents). Chances are that she'll eventually recognise her values in you again later on. After all, what parents basically should want for their children is that they turn out to be "good" people - beliefs are irrelevant. If one of the two parties insists on beliefs to be more important than values, then that party makes a faulty assumption on the parent-child equation and that party is "wrong", implying that the other party cannot blame itself for the "fault". I hope you know what I mean by all this, I'm not exactly in a "clear channel" mood today, it seems :p

So, I feel like crap now. I am confident in my beliefs, definitely... but I got a clear message tonight that my mom has lost respect for me. More than that -- it hurt her. She feels let down. Disappointed. Like her life as a mother has been a failure. Like her son is going to Hell in a handbasket. In her world, that's a certainty.

Even though I knew that my mom was more or less a Fundy, I figured she would have at least a little bit of tolerance and restraint, especially for her own son. Apparently I wasn't listening all the times she railed against church-state separation and a balanced government. And "anti-Christians". Like me.

Like I said above, if she insists in putting her beliefs before the values that the both of you still share, then that's her problem, not yours. Don't feel overly guilty for that, accept the fact that parents have issues too and that these issues most probably have roots that go way back in time, far beyond your moment of birth.

Just one last advice: if your mother (and maybe grandmother) push it too far and clearly renounce your way of life, and maybe even want to burn all bridges... don't give them the matches to light the fire, if you know what I mean. The Rashomon-principle dictates that the last word said is always the one that'll be remembered - and if that last word is offensive or destructive, make sure you didn't say it. You'll (hopefully) outlive both your mother and grandmother, and you'll be better off growing beyond this hurting experience as a whole than regretting in particular "that last word" you said for the rest of your life, and thereby not integrating the lessons of the experience in your personality.

You cannot prove the existence of god ether; and occam's razor applies; there is no God.

Surely you realize that God is just a Deux Machina for people?

Cause god did it.


You shouldn't have lie about what you believe just because someone else believes differentally and they can't handle it.


The Box is a metaphor for the ideas and 'theories' that still live on into the 21th century, like Flat Earth, creationism, Supersetions, ghosts, and everything else from the dark ages.

What's outside the box? the truth. and possibly many higher dimensions.

I love aetheists like you and how you think you're so ****ing enlightened.

Now that I have gotten that off my chest.

Rhaomi, your mother did act irrationally. Hopefully this won't sour your opinion of religion or even just organised religion as a whole. Not all of us are like that.

Remember that her reaction is largely based out of concern for you. As previous posters have stated, the only logical conclusion she can draw from your actions through her beliefs is that you're going to hell and it scares her.

However, you also have a right to your own beliefs. May I suggest simply TRYING to talk it over with her alone? Don't simply say "but she is so grounded in her beliefs etc etc". That attitude is assumptive and from what I have seen from many real cases has caused more problems than it is worth.

Simply ask her that she doesn't have to think your beliefs are correct but to simply tolerate your differences, especially in front of family and friends. This alone would be a step up.

Yes, it's true. Apparently, even after years of me living with her, freely expressing my disapproval of Bush and the pseudo-Christian right, my own mother did not pick up on the fact that I'm not exactly a Bible-thumper. Nada más.

So, I feel like crap now. I am confident in my beliefs, definitely... but I got a clear message tonight that my mom has lost respect for me. More than that -- it hurt her. She feels let down. Disappointed. Like her life as a mother has been a failure. Like her son is going to Hell in a handbasket. In her world, that's a certainty.

Even though I knew that my mom was more or less a Fundy, I figured she would have at least a little bit of tolerance and restraint, especially for her own son. Apparently I wasn't listening all the times she railed against church-state separation and a balanced government. And "anti-Christians". Like me.

I am sorry to hear that she had such a reaction, but I think that she will forget about it in time from my experience. I am pretty lucky as far as my parents go, my mom is a lapsed Catholic and my dad is rather agnostic, though raised Episcopalian. I am myself a Unitarian Universalist. Some of my mom's family is pretty Catholic, but they don't really discuss religion, I think partly because some are married to Protestants. So I don't usually have issues with them unless politics comes up.

However, it is different story with my dad's dad. The worst one I can remember with him as a conversation between my mom, him and me. My dad and my grandma went the store so it was just the 3 of us. Anyway, the topic of religion came up because the topic of my master's dissertation was secularism in France. He got really annoyed when my mom and I agreed that isn't necessary to go to church to pray. He said that he was very disappointed that only one of his grandchildren goes on a regular basis. The argument only went downhill from there. He blamed my mom and my grandma, who apparently doesn't believe in Hell, for corrupting me, and he was worried about where I was going because of that. Fortunately, the return of my dad and grandma put a stop to whole thing because my dad wanted to tell us about something that happened at the store. But my grandpa still talks to me and is impressed that I am doing my PhD even though he thinks I am misguided. The subject doesn't come up much, and when it does, it isn't very civil. But eventually, everyone forgets about it because it is more important that we are family and I am sure after your mom will be after sometime. If she was in denial until now, it will come as a shock for a bit, but she'll adjust to the idea over time.

So, I feel like crap now. I am confident in my beliefs, definitely... but I got a clear message tonight that my mom has lost respect for me. More than that -- it hurt her. She feels let down. Disappointed. Like her life as a mother has been a failure. Like her son is going to Hell in a handbasket. In her world, that's a certainty.


I can totally sypathise with you. My mother stopped speaking to me for a year when I revealed that i had no love for the upper-class (which I was born into) or the class sytem. And when I did a my hero back in lycee (I live in Luxembourg) I chose the Sufragettes. I was banned from coming with my mother to my sister's house in Monaco. I was left behind, with my great-grandmother. And later on in life, when I decided to go and take mymoney and help people in Uganda, Congo etc, she screamed the roof down. she told the neighbours. she isolated me. I sometimes wonder how a mother could do that to her only child - when I said sister I actually meant step-sister, but we're close and call eachother sister instead of step-sister.

But, back to the point. she will forget about it soon - my mother took a year, but when I arrived home she screamed the house down and practically killed me with a huge hug - which, considering it was in public, was a massive display for my mother.

I love aetheists like you and how you think you're so ****ing enlightened.

As opposed to you, who's so enlightened that you can't spell the word that refers the people you're attacking correctly. :rolleyes:

Follow your heart...

(Just curious: why does everybody think I'm a girl? :confused:)
You think you've got it bad? People from this forum who have met me still claim to think I'm female. :(

As for the whole parent situation, I can't really relate. My parents seemed to believe that it wasn't their place to try to teach me anything about religion until I was about 16 at which point I had a very short discussion with my mum which went something along the lines of 'Rob, are you religious at all? Do you believe in God or anything like that?'. 'No'.

Its always uncomfortable when there is nuclear family disharmony. I was lucky enough to be raised by a bunch of athiests, so they didnt care.

My father was convinced I was gay for a while though, and that got him very upset because he couldnt "talk about girls" with me. Just give it time though, they will eventually accept that you hold different beliefs. Its really hard as a parent to stay mad at your child.

Plus, when they finally do come to their senses, it makes you feel real happy inside. I remeber my fathers talk about how "I can talk to him about my boyfriends" and that its okay that I was gay, even if I wasnt ready to come out of the closet to him :rolleyes:.

^^ True story, and I am still not gay too.

As opposed to you, who's so enlightened that you can't spell the word that refers the people you're attacking correctly. :rolleyes:
Poor spelling aside, atheists can't really make a claim to be any more enlightened than religious people.

well fuck that, and him. if the fictional dead-guy shows to me why he's worthy of my worship, then sure. but i will not love him more than my family or the real people in my life :upyours:
I don't know what your problem with Christianity is, PM. Jesus spent his time helping the poor, reaching out to the outcasts, and teaching peace (that one quote notwithstanding), tolerance and forgiveness. And all you can say is "fuck him"?

So, I feel like crap now. I am confident in my beliefs, definitely... but I got a clear message tonight that my mom has lost respect for me. More than that -- it hurt her. She feels let down. Disappointed. Like her life as a mother has been a failure. Like her son is going to Hell in a handbasket. In her world, that's a certainty.

Even though I knew that my mom was more or less a Fundy, I figured she would have at least a little bit of tolerance and restraint, especially for her own son. Apparently I wasn't listening all the times she railed against church-state separation and a balanced government. And "anti-Christians". Like me.

Be understanding of her and she will probably be understanding of you. She will probably forgive you and be cool with it eventually.

Also try using that Bible; Christianity is not inherently against the Big Bang.

Poor spelling aside, atheists can't really make a claim to be any more enlightened than religious people.
I never made such a claim.

As opposed to you, who's so enlightened that you can't spell the word that refers the people you're attacking correctly. :rolleyes:

Whoever said I thought I was enlightened? And yes I made a spelling mistake. I'm human after all.

And as to you making no such claim: You have made it indirectly by denouncing religion as mere superstition, simply because of an increase in scientific discoveries.

See, there can be good and bad atheists and good and bad theists.

Good theists and atheists are very much alike. They have their views, believe in them and may debate them with others, but are happy for others to have their own beliefs.

Bad theists and atheists are also very much alike. They think for some odd reason the two cannot coexist and must be stamped out.

Bad theists shreik at the idea of new discoveries that are beneficial to humanity which are against their religion. Bad atheists, such as yourself, think that in this era of discovery and information, religion is an old outdated concept.

Neither understands the other properly.

Also try using that Bible; Christianity is not inherently against the Big Bang.
Bingo.

And even though it would probably be wiser to avoid the topic from now on, if Rhaomi ever finds himself in the uncomfortable position of having to argue about it - that's where one should sit.

I mean, unless his mom is a total Bible literalist (in which case no one can help her), it should be quite possible to show how seeing and accepting the evidence for the Big Bang doesn't exclude religion and doesn't require denying a god.

I mean, unless his mom is a total Bible literalist (in which case no one can help her), it should be quite possible to show how seeing and accepting the evidence for the Big Bang doesn't exclude religion and doesn't require denying a god.
"Bingo" yourself.

I tried explaining that, while we know that the Big Bang happened, we don't know how it happened or why. She simply shook her head and said that the Bible didn't mention a Big Bang, ergo it didn't happen. She then asked me if I believed that God created the world in seven days. Obviously I shook my head "no", considering that every scrap of geologic evidence points otherwise, and tried to say that perhaps the Bible didn't mean a literal 24-hour day, but she didn't accept that either.

It's almost pitiable...

"Bingo" yourself.

I tried explaining that, while we know that the Big Bang happened, we don't know how it happened or why. She simply shook her head and said that the Bible didn't mention a Big Bang, ergo it didn't happen. She then asked me if I believed that God created the world in seven days. Obviously I shook my head "no", considering that every scrap of geologic evidence points otherwise, and tried to say that perhaps the Bible didn't mean a literal 24-hour day, but she didn't accept that either.

It's almost pitiable...
What's her justification for believing that He meant 24-hour days?

If she's a Bushevik, why doesn't she take the words of Jesus literally when He spoke of compassion for the poor, tolerance and peace?

"Bingo" yourself.

She simply shook her head and said that the Bible didn't mention a Big Bang, ergo it didn't happen.

"Let there be light" and lo - there was a hella lot of light.

Poor spelling aside, atheists can't really make a claim to be any more enlightened than religious people.

Can you quickly define 'athiest' so I know which groups you are talking about?

Well, my mother and I finally had The Talk. Not the "Birds and the Bees" talk or the "What the Fuck are You Going to Do With Your Life" talk or even the "Holy Crap, You're Addicted to Paint Thinner" talk. The "I Disown Thou" talk.

We were out eating with family when the conversation turned metaphysical. "Is there life in the universe" was the topic, I believe. I was trying to explain why I thought we were the only intelligence in the galaxy (if the universe). To put it super-simply: Some theorize that our universe is but one out of trillions, all with different physical laws. If the anthropic principle is right and life is rare, then this explains our improbable existence; the vast majority of universes lack the conditions necessary for life, and we are in one of the only ones that have it. Since universes are separated by eleven-dimensional space, we cannot see the other universes and assume we are special.

My mother hears this and stares. "You mean you believe in the Big Bang? You don't think God created the world?"

I tried explaining that, while I did believe in the Big Bang, I did not profess to know why or how it happened -- not even our greatest scientific minds know the answer. She ignored me, hurt in her eyes. She only heard what she wanted to hear -- or what she did not want to hear, rather.

"I can't believe it," she said, staring into the middle difference and shaking her head. "I spend my life raising my children in the Christian way, and look at how he turns out." She glared at me. "We're not talking about the science of man, here! We're talking about your eternal life! I'm going to get you a new Bible for Christmas, because you've lost your way." This is in front of family, mind you. "Just wait 'till I tell your grandmother about this. It'll break her heart." And on and on and on.

Yes, it's true. Apparently, even after years of me living with her, freely expressing my disapproval of Bush and the pseudo-Christian right, my own mother did not pick up on the fact that I'm not exactly a Bible-thumper. Nada más.

So, I feel like crap now. I am confident in my beliefs, definitely... but I got a clear message tonight that my mom has lost respect for me. More than that -- it hurt her. She feels let down. Disappointed. Like her life as a mother has been a failure. Like her son is going to Hell in a handbasket. In her world, that's a certainty.

Even though I knew that my mom was more or less a Fundy, I figured she would have at least a little bit of tolerance and restraint, especially for her own son. Apparently I wasn't listening all the times she railed against church-state separation and a balanced government. And "anti-Christians". Like me.

:headbang:

This is why I don't like religion. It tears people apart. Don't believe me? Take it from the head honcho hisself:

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law — a man's enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."

--Jesus Christ, Matthew 10:34-38

Now excuse me while I go lie down for awhile.

Tell her that she needs to accept that those beliefs are not for you. That it is not her right to tell you that you're beliefs are wrong, just because she wants to stick by what something some person wrote a thousand years ago. The bible is not, I repeat, IS NOT, right in 90% of what it says. Certain things are factual, and are known to have happened, such as the existance of Jesus, which is proven, the fact that Moses did cross a sea (the Reed Sea, which is north of the Red Sea, because there is a natural phenominon which causes the "parting" of the ocean), etc.

Say something along those lines.

Can you quickly define 'athiest' so I know which groups you are talking about?

An Athiest is someone who doesn't believe that god exists.

An Athiest is someone who doesn't believe that god exists.

It is derived from ancient Greek.

A - none
theos - God

Bad atheists, such as yourself, think that in this era of discovery and information, religion is an old outdated concept.

Neither understands the other properly.
Religion is an outdated concept, whether you realize that or not.

Look at history: their have been dozens of religions that have came and fallen; why should Christianity be any different? In fact, the only difference between Christianity, and say, the Roman pathilon, is that it's not limited to a nation, or group of people; making it very hard to stamp out.

What you term 'bad atheists' are just those who try to 'enlighten' people like you, who believe that 'god-didit'

In my perious post, I stated that God is nothing more then a Deux Machina: look it up.

When something can't be explaned at first glance, people turn to religion to give them 'answers.' that's how it's been for hundreds of years, the common folk lived in daily fear that if they did'nt kiss butt with their masters that god was going to smite them. That is, until the Age of Enlightenment/reason (oh, irony!) during which people started to ask questions, the church's power fell.

I 'understand' religion perfectly; it's A) a tool of fear, designed for control. B) A source of Power (IE pope has large polical influcene) and C) a safety blanket for people scaried of what they don't understand.*

That's the way I see it, like it or not.


*there are a few religions that are not like this, such as buddism.

sorry, but if you truly want to mend fences, you need to use tact. get her talking about the big bang theory... and ask her this. Could not God, when creating light, and seperating the filament of the world, have caused what scientist call the Big Bang?

then follow up with Genesis. ask her, for a being as timeless as God, how long is a day to God? 24 hours? 24 years? 24 centures? 24 eons?

ask her about the Dinosaurs. "granted they are not mentioned in the bible, so where did they come from... Satan? he corrupts, he is less than God, right? so he cannot create.... thus either the Fossil records prove that satan is God's equal... which I don't Believe... or God used what scientist call Evolution to create life on earth." basically, you don't argue "Either or" but you argue that Science does not, and cannot disprove God but Science examines God's miracles.

then touch back on your point about intelligent life. say if we are truly alone, that makes us unique. a world that God made just for us. but if there is others out there, then all that shows is that God made other worlds for us to join in with fellowship.

you never bash the faith of a fundy. you'll have an easier time breaking rocks with a cardboard hammer. but you just give it a couple of nudges, using the Bible to show where it does not discount what science has found... and show where science does not disprove God's exsistance.

Someone write this thing down!

Religion is an outdated concept, whether you realize that or not.

Look at history: their have been dozens of religions that have came and fallen; why should Christianity be any different? In fact, the only difference between Christianity, and say, the Roman pathilon, is that it's not limited to a nation, or group of people; making it very hard to stamp out.

What you term 'bad atheists' are just those who try to 'enlighten' people like you, who believe that 'god-didit'

In my perious post, I stated that God is nothing more then a Deux Machina: look it up.

When something can't be explaned at first glance, people turn to religion to give them 'answers.' that's how it's been for hundreds of years, the common folk lived in daily fear that if they did'nt kiss butt with their masters that god was going to smite them. That is, until the Age of Enlightenment/reason (oh, irony!) during which people started to ask questions, the church's power fell.

I 'understand' religion perfectly; it's A) a tool of fear, designed for control. B) A source of Power (IE pope has large polical influcene) and C) a safety blanket for people scaried of what they don't understand.*

That's the way I see it, like it or not.


*there are a few religions that are not like this, such as buddism.

You got my feelings Religion down to a tee, one thing I would add is that while it maybe an out dated concept for more and more people there are still a lot of people out there that need the "safety blanket" that religion provides, and trying to force them to believe in anything other than God will just result in them holding on even tighter to said blanket.

I 'understand' religion perfectly; it's A) a tool of fear, designed for control. B) A source of Power (IE pope has large polical influcene) and C) a safety blanket for people scaried of what they don't understand.
As Marx wrote about it that religion "is the opium of the masses".

I also find that people who practice tend to think that those who don't are "lost" and need their "prayers"...

As Marx wrote about it that religion "is the opium of the masses".
Sorry to nitpick, but it's "opiate". ;)

Sorry to nitpick, but it's "opiate". ;)

Same thing. :p Plus, opium indicates addiction. Think about it; if people are addicted to religion as they are to opium, we can take it away and rehabilitate them!

Think about it; if people are addicted to religion as they are to opium, we can take it away and rehabilitate them!

But would still take willpower and a conscious wanting for the people to under take it. Other wise they would just go back to it. But I think that maybe taking the metaphor too far.

But would still take willpower and a conscious wanting for the people to under take it. Other wise they would just go back to it. But I think that maybe taking the metaphor too far.

Not if they are given something greater than what they had.

Not if they are given something greater than what they had.

What, replace one addiction with another 'better' addiction? When they are ready the people will realise and come round but until then any attempts to force them will just prolong the process.

What, replace one addiction with another 'better' addiction? When they are ready the people will realise and come round but until then any attempts to force them will just prolong the process.
No, no... think about it. You're addicted to cigarettes and you quit by using the patch because it's a well-proven method. You are using one drug to end your dependance on another...

No, no... think about it. You're addicted to cigarettes and you quit by using the patch because it's a well-proven method. You are using one drug to end your dependance on another...

But how do you apply that to religion? And what is the insentive. With cigarettes its easy, because you'll die.

(Sorry to play Devils Advocate, I do agree I just like to fully explore the idea :p )

You got my feelings Religion down to a tee, one thing I would add is that while it maybe an out dated concept for more and more people there are still a lot of people out there that need the "safety blanket" that religion provides, and trying to force them to believe in anything other than God will just result in them holding on even tighter to said blanket.
Sadly what you say is true.

Oh, I'm so sorry. It's difficult living in a family which does not share your beliefs. My family gets into arguments over "little" stuff, so I can't imagine what you must be experiencing. I hope things get better and your relationship with your family stays intact.

I'm praying for you.

Religion is an outdated concept, whether you realize that or not.


What you term 'bad atheists' are just those who try to 'enlighten' people like you, who believe that 'god-didit'

In my perious post, I stated that God is nothing more then a Deux Machina: look it up.

When something can't be explaned at first glance, people turn to religion to give them 'answers.' that's how it's been for hundreds of years, the common folk lived in daily fear that if they did'nt kiss butt with their masters that god was going to smite them. That is, until the Age of Enlightenment/reason (oh, irony!) during which people started to ask questions, the church's power fell.


And yet you would find it wrong for Christian, or other religious groups to proleytize? It's fine for you to 'enlighten' me just because you are so sure you are correct?

Whatever you may think, there is proof to the existence of God, or most other religions. Millions, if not billions of spiritually siginficant occurances have taken place throughout history, ranging from the life of Jesus to gremlins in the backyard. Any one of these can point towards the vaildity of divine forces. Of course, it goes without saying that many of these may be false. But the way in which these are investigated, and "plausible explanations" are given are an insult to scientific integrity most of the time.

Even if you don't believe this, thre are plenty of people willing to use modern methods, including mathematics and physics to prove that there is some sort of divine force. The question of "Does God exist?" and the supporters who say yes cannot be tackled as if tackling the members of the Flat earth society.

Despite what you may think, Christians and other religious followers are not stupid people. I myself have questioned my faith at times and found that my best choice was to stick with Christianity. The smartest people I know are either Christians or Agnostics who truly believe the existance of God is plausible. [/QUOTE]





I 'understand' religion perfectly; it's A) a tool of fear, designed for control. B) A source of Power (IE pope has large polical influcene) and C) a safety blanket for people scaried of what they don't understand.*

That's the way I see it, like it or not.


*there are a few religions that are not like this, such as buddism.

Ah, so quick with the blanket generalisations.

A) I have never claimed a person is going to hell because they don't believe what I do, nor do I think that if I don't follow Christianity I'll go to hell. There are millions of people like me.

B)Funny, I could swear there was a post the other day that stated "when did the Vatican lose all power?". As well as not being stupid, religious followers are not all mewling sheep. Many ordinary people and even priests or nuns have challenged the Pope's statements, just as muslim followers challenged the mufti in Australia who claimed women were responsible for their own rapes.

C)You mean like Atheism? I've found that many people go to atheism because rather than look seriously at their own beliefs and acknowledge it requires you to have *gasp* faith in something you don't understand, they find it much easier to turn around and say "it doesn't exist".

Religion, Faith, Knowledge you assume to be right whilst not having checked the facts yourself from a truly reliable source.

LIES

ALL LIES

If there is a hell you are living in it now, self delusion, the happy comfort of your heroic course, to save the environment, to save animals, to save sinners. Your save excuse for why youve failed to live up to the american dream, because of the man, the companies, or gods will.

Ignorance of the truth does not make it any less true, and beseaching someone to have faith on any subject is always wrong.

No exceptions.

These generalizations were brought to you by me, i cannot be held responisble for any meaning derived from them, thoughts detected within the random assemblege of words is purely coincidence which may and should be discarded.

Religion, Faith, Knowledge you assume to be right whilst not having checked the facts yourself from a truly reliable source.

LIES

ALL LIES

If there is a hell you are living in it now, self delusion, the happy comfort of your heroic course, to save the environment, to save animals, to save sinners. Your save excuse for why youve failed to live up to the american dream, because of the man, the companies, or gods will.

Ignorance of the truth does not make it any less true, and beseaching someone to have faith on any subject is always wrong.

No exceptions.

These generalizations were brought to you by me, i cannot be held responisble for any meaning derived from them, thoughts detected within the random assemblege of words is purely coincidence which may and should be discarded.


Okay, first of all, I don't wish to live up to the 'American dream' both because I'm not American and because people who believe the American dream is the height of morals and good living are deluded.

Secondly, you really sound like one of those people who need to crawl in a corner somewhere and die, so you can stop suffering. Having no faith in ANYTHING (even atheists have faith in something) points to a needless existance.

Third, why do people assume we theists believe what we believe because it will grant us some exclusive 'save' and protection from 'hell'? In my belief, all you atheists are going to join me in heaven, whatever that may be. I'll have a good natured 'I told you so' before we go off and enjoy the fruits of the afterlife together.

Same thing. :p Plus, opium indicates addiction. Think about it; if people are addicted to religion as they are to opium, we can take it away and rehabilitate them!

I believe the popular term with communists is "re-educate."

"Bingo" yourself.

I tried explaining that, while we know that the Big Bang happened, we don't know how it happened or why. She simply shook her head and said that the Bible didn't mention a Big Bang, ergo it didn't happen. She then asked me if I believed that God created the world in seven days. Obviously I shook my head "no", considering that every scrap of geologic evidence points otherwise, and tried to say that perhaps the Bible didn't mean a literal 24-hour day, but she didn't accept that either.

It's almost pitiable...

Okay if she sends you a Bible... Send her a Fossil that's older than 6000 years.
Another thing God hadn't created the Earth yet. How could there be "Days".
Ask her that. No earth no day\night.

Personally I believe that something intervened somehow, started it, Guided it or something.

Damn, Rhaomi, I really feel for you, man. I had to go through something similar with my elder sister - and we've always been very close. The only thing that made it a little better is that she's Mormon, and their generally not quite so fundamentalist (on the other hand, I was telling her I was an Atheist, while from the sounds of it you're more agnostic).

The only thing I can say, is love comes through. My sister and I still don't see eye to eye on religious issues, but we've worked through the upset and hurt. Time does heal all wounds, and today I get along with her as well as we always did.

I live with my parents 24/7/365.

I hardly ever talk to them.

Though religion isn't much of a topic they talk about, even though they are catholic..

Oh Ruffy, you're my hero. *swoons*

And yet you would find it wrong for Christian, or other religious groups to proleytize? It's fine for you to 'enlighten' me just because you are so sure you are correct?

I'm not the one useing Hell houses to scary people into joinning my 'religion'.

Whatever you may think, there is proof to the existence of God, or most other religions. Millions, if not billions of spiritually siginficant occurances have taken place throughout history, ranging from the life of Jesus to gremlins in the backyard. Any one of these can point towards the vaildity of divine forces. Of course, it goes without saying that many of these may be false. But the way in which these are investigated, and "plausible explanations" are given are an insult to scientific integrity most of the time. And I suppose Roswell really happened?

THe problem with people like you is that you're willing to jump right to a out of this world expanation for simple stuff. I read about a new technology that creates words in water. Magic? Divine interventation? No, Standing waves.

As far as I can see, no emperual eveidence has ever been produced that God exists, nor does it appear the God, Jesus, or anyone else, left so much as a foot print to follow.

There has been some reasonibly evidence for the lack of Jesus existing: for example, Around the time of Jesus, some very well known People liked to comment and write about religous movements, and cults; but Jesus and christiaity where never writen about.


Even if you don't believe this, thre are plenty of people willing to use modern methods, including mathematics and physics to prove that there is some sort of divine force. The question of "Does God exist?" and the supporters who say yes cannot be tackled as if tackling the members of the Flat earth society.
Really? I'm sorry, but 'intelligent falling down' was a joke.

I'd like to see this 'math'



Ah, so quick with the blanket generalisations.

[QUOTE]A) I have never claimed a person is going to hell because they don't believe what I do, nor do I think that if I don't follow Christianity I'll go to hell. There are millions of people like me. Then you are miss-reading your own bible. Un-baptaised Babies are sometimes sentenced to hell.

B)Funny, I could swear there was a post the other day that stated "when did the Vatican lose all power?". As well as not being stupid, religious followers are not all mewling sheep. Many ordinary people and even priests or nuns have challenged the Pope's statements, just as muslim followers challenged the mufti in Australia who claimed women were responsible for their own rapes. I was speaking from a historical view point, but that's not the only example: Religious groups have pressured Governments around the world to ban stuff like the HPV vaccine; or the fact they teach Abascence only in America Schools.

C)You mean like Atheism? I've found that many people go to atheism because rather than look seriously at their own beliefs and acknowledge it requires you to have *gasp* faith in something you don't understand, they find it much easier to turn around and say "it doesn't exist".
*laughs* Ahh, a Classic arguement. 'Atheists are lazy'.

I'm found that Many people go to religion in hopes that it will solve their problems. I pity them.

It also takes faith to believe in the toothfairy, or Santa; both are lies.
Just a small example of how Faith can be missplaced.

I'm not the one useing Hell houses to scary people into joinning my 'religion'. [QUOTE]

No, instead you're ridiculing people's heartfelt beliefs and condemning them to a eternity of emptiness and meaningless instead.


[QUOTE=Xomic;11883457]And I suppose Roswell really happened?

THe problem with people like you is that you're willing to jump right to a out of this world expanation for simple stuff. I read about a new technology that creates words in water. Magic? Divine interventation? No, Standing waves.

Are you suggesting I can't tell the difference between fiction and reality? I know where lightning comes from and the meteorological reasons for earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunamis. I did not necessarily say that every possibly spiritual occurence is true, nor am I a conspiracy theorist.

But just because I understand the difference between fact and fiction doesn't mean I'm going to accept it when a guy in a lab coat or sitting in front of a bookcase, with hardly any evidence to work with and tells me something can't have possibly happened that way.


As far as I can see, no emperual eveidence has ever been produced that God exists, nor does it appear the God, Jesus, or anyone else, left so much as a foot print to follow.

There has been some reasonibly evidence for the lack of Jesus existing: for example, Around the time of Jesus, some very well known People liked to comment and write about religous movements, and cults; but Jesus and christiaity where never writen about.

There is also exceptional evidence for Jesus existing. They're called 'Roman records', written by a people who could be considered anal for that sort of thing.



Really? I'm sorry, but 'intelligent falling down' was a joke.

I'd like to see this 'math'

Hey ask them, not me. I personally believe God cannot be measured through mortal means. But smarter men than you or I have put their faith in methods such as these


Then you are miss-reading your own bible. Un-baptaised Babies are sometimes sentenced to hell.

Ah of course, because I'm a Christian I have to believe everything a book written by humans tells me.

I was speaking from a historical view point, but that's not the only example: Religious groups have pressured Governments around the world to ban stuff like the HPV vaccine; or the fact they teach Abascence only in America Schools.

Indeed some people have misused faith over the ages. However, this does not make it bunk. Nuclear technology has caused both great harm some people and saved others. Never let a few bad apples spoil the lot.




*laughs* Ahh, a Classic arguement. 'Atheists are lazy'.

I'm found that Many people go to religion in hopes that it will solve their problems. I pity them.

It also takes faith to believe in the toothfairy, or Santa; both are lies.
Just a small example of how Faith can be missplaced.

No more classic than your 'religious followers are simply looking for a safety net' argument.

Faith has saved many people and brought them through difficult times, family tragedies and personal ordeals. I'm one of those people. Faith is a powerful thing.

And of course faith can be misplaced. That's why I believe in giving people a choice rather than shoving my ideas down people's throats.

She simply shook her head and said that the Bible didn't mention a Big Bang, ergo it didn't happen.
The bible doesn't mention Superbowl XXIII, either. Does that mean it didn't happen?

No, instead you're ridiculing people's heartfelt beliefs and condemning them to a eternity of emptiness and meaningless instead.
No, just uncertainty. Their lives may well be empty and meaningless.
Faith is a powerful thing.
So is misinformation.

Faith's power does not impact whether it is unreasonable, which it is.

No, just uncertainty. Their lives may well be empty and meaningless.

So is misinformation.

Faith's power does not impact whether it is unreasonable, which it is.

Why is faith in something you can't explain unreasonable?

Why is faith in something you can't explain unreasonable?
By definition. You can't have reached it through reason. Ergo, unreasonable.

By definition. You can't have reached it through reason. Ergo, unreasonable.

No, I said can't explain it. That doesn't mean I haven't used reason to justify my faith in it.

My mother hears this and stares. "You mean you believe in the Big Bang? You don't think God created the world?"

God could have done the big bang...


"I can't believe it," she said, staring into the middle difference and shaking her head. "I spend my life raising my children in the Christian way, and look at how he turns out." She glared at me. "We're not talking about the science of man, here! We're talking about your eternal life! I'm going to get you a new Bible for Christmas, because you've lost your way." This is in front of family, mind you. "Just wait 'till I tell your grandmother about this. It'll break her heart." And on and on and on.

You can understand her pain though right?


So, I feel like crap now. I am confident in my beliefs, definitely... but I got a clear message tonight that my mom has lost respect for me. More than that -- it hurt her. She feels let down. Disappointed. Like her life as a mother has been a failure. Like her son is going to Hell in a handbasket. In her world, that's a certainty.

Well duh she lost a little respect for you you pretty much said "hey you know think ive been beleiveing? yeah well i havent, i beleive the opposite"


"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law — a man's enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."

--Jesus Christ, Matthew 10:34-38


Thats the second time youve taken that out of context.. its not a literal meaning

I'm not the one useing Hell houses to scary people into joinning my 'religion'.

No, instead you're ridiculing people's heartfelt beliefs and condemning them to a eternity of emptiness and meaningless instead.
Why do you have to have 'god' to have a meaningfull life?

What makes you think the 'meaning' of life isn't just to reproduce?




Are you suggesting I can't tell the difference between fiction and reality? I know where lightning comes from and the meteorological reasons for earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunamis. I did not necessarily say that every possibly spiritual occurence is true, nor am I a conspiracy theorist.
Ether has solid evidence to support they, and yet people believe in them, faithfully.

But just because I understand the difference between fact and fiction doesn't mean I'm going to accept it when a guy in a lab coat or sitting in front of a bookcase, with hardly any evidence to work with and tells me something can't have possibly happened that way.But you will accept what someone behind a alter tells you. Curious.



Hey ask them, not me. I personally believe God cannot be measured through mortal means. But smarter men than you or I have put their faith in methods such as these
IF it can't be measured, it's just a theory; and in science, theories are always overturning old ones.


Indeed some people have misused faith over the ages. However, this does not make it bunk. Nuclear technology has caused both great harm some people and saved others. Never let a few bad apples spoil the lot.
What makes it 'bunk' is their is hundreds of religions that all claim to explane the world.


No more classic than your 'religious followers are simply looking for a safety net' argument.

Faith has saved many people and brought them through difficult times, family tragedies and personal ordeals. I'm one of those people. Faith is a powerful thing. 'faith as saved' no one.

I always love it when a person comes out of surgery and proclaims his or her thankfulness to god(s).

Excuse me? God wasn't the one who's done all the research, or trainning. Start crediting those who did.

But really, if faith is 'so powerful', I don't see why you need Doctors at all. Maybe, the next time you get cancer, or really sick, you should just pray, and not waste resources you *don't* need if your god is going to heal you.

see this is why the uk rocks religion is a private thing here which you dont parade about and force down others throats.
im an agnostic person, my mate is christian, it doesnt mean i shout at him or argue about religion, it just means i go to his house on christmas day after he returns from church

not everyone is goin to believe what you want them to, you cant control how they think (no matter how much you try) ooh unless you've got the red flashy thingfrom men in blacj

Why do you have to have 'god' to have a meaningfull life?

What makes you think the 'meaning' of life isn't just to reproduce?




Ether has solid evidence to support they, and yet people believe in them, faithfully.

But you will accept what someone behind a alter tells you. Curious.




IF it can't be measured, it's just a theory; and in science, theories are always overturning old ones.



What makes it 'bunk' is their is hundreds of religions that all claim to explane the world.


'faith as saved' no one.

I always love it when a person comes out of surgery and proclaims his or her thankfulness to god(s).

Excuse me? God wasn't the one who's done all the research, or trainning. Start crediting those who did.

But really, if faith is 'so powerful', I don't see why you need Doctors at all. Maybe, the next time you get cancer, or really sick, you should just pray, and not waste resources you *don't* need if your god is going to heal you.

Why are you getting so upset about this? He's obviously not a fundamentalist, and is helluva lot more tolerant than you. I'm atheist, and I see no need to be confrontational with all religion.

No, I said can't explain it. That doesn't mean I haven't used reason to justify my faith in it.
But then you're using reason to justify it as opposed to using reason to reach it in the first place.

If you had reached it through reason, you would be able to explain it. Since you didn't reach it through reason, it is unreasonable.

Why are you getting so upset about this? He's obviously not a fundamentalist, and is helluva lot more tolerant than you. I'm atheist, and I see no need to be confrontational with all religion.


Thank you.

What I've been trying to explain is that there is no reason to shove your beliefs in another person's face-whether you're a jehova's witness who annoys people door to door and won't take no for an awnser or an atheist who sneers because someone wears a cross around their neck (I've seen both happen).