NationStates Jolt Archive

Why is it that alot of people outside the US focus their anger towards Americans and not the American Government. Some people act as if we (Americans) personally approved as a whole to wage war on Iraq, or to pass a bill on legalized torture, or to create sick scenarios such as Gitmo and Abu Ghairab. I hear many say its because nobody protests it. Like for an example, how this one Frenchman told me that Americans were too apathetic and how his people in France protested the job situation in their country. Its probably because the French military won't try and supress them like they will here in the US. If you think its BS, just look in history when Americans protested for civil rights, or against the Vietnam war. The National Guard shot tear gas at them and hosed them down with fire hoses in some cases and alot were arrested and beaten. And as for people who say "Well you people voted the current regime in", thats the biggest crock of shit ever. For those of you that think that, remember that on the popular vote, Bush lost both times, and it was thanks to a decision by the Supreme Court that he was elected, not the decision of the American people. And take a look at his approval rating, 37% according to CNN last month. So again people, i ask, why is it Americans recieve so much hate for the actions of a government that most Americans despise as well?:(

Because the American people elected the American government? Or rather, didn't protect their democratic system enough against this particular government?

Many American people loudly proclaim that they are a shining beacon of Democracy.

When you make that claim - however misguided a claim it may be - it is implicit that the people freely chose that government and are thus directly responsible for its actions.

So again people, i ask, why is it Americans recieve so much hate for the actions of a government that most Americans despise as well?:(

Because we voted them into office in the first place. Because our system was FOUNDED in the belief that the people have an inherent right, no DUTY, to overthrow a regime that we feel oppresses us, but most Americans stand idly by bitching about it, seeming to accept that the system is broken beyond repair and that there is nothing we can do. Because we are arrogant enough not to care (as a populace) about the damage our policies are doing abroad. (Yes, sure, most Americans want us out of Iraq. But it's because OUR troops are dying for no reason, not because it would be a start to righting the wrong of toppling an oppressive but stable regime we had no right to interfere in.)

[/rant] I think I violated three or four articles of the UCMJ, but damn it felt good to get it off my chest.

http://www.abestweb.com/smilies/beat_deadhorse.gif

http://www.abestweb.com/smilies/beat_deadhorse.gif


True, true, LG. But I bit my tongue the last twelve or thirteen times this came up, and my blood was already boiling over PR vs. FPTP. Forgive me?

You could send Donald Rumsfeld on a world tour without any security to draw some flak

True, true, LG. But I bit my tongue the last twelve or thirteen times this came up, and my blood was already boiling over PR vs. FPTP. Forgive me?

:fluffle:

http://www.abestweb.com/smilies/popcorn.gif

ty. candy (http://a1061.g.akamai.net/7/1061/5412/home/www.walgreens.com/dbimagecache/189257.jpg)?

Because the American people elected the American government? Or rather, didn't protect their democratic system enough against this particular government?

One question: Did you only read the topic title and completely skip through the 1st post? i gave an example on how the majority here DID NOT vote for Bush, and also a reason why most Americans don't protest out in the streets about the current state of things. Please people, read the whole post instead of just skimming through or reading only the title, jeez.

One question: Did you only read the topic title and completely skip through the 1st post? i gave an example on how the majority here DID NOT vote for Bush, and also a reason why most Americans don't protest out in the streets about the current state of things. Please people, read the whole post instead of just skimming through or reading only the title, jeez.

I did read it.
And I read an immense number of posts on this very forum by USAmericans about how lucky they are to live in the country with the best democratic system and the most freedoms in the world, and a bunch of posts about how it's important for them to be allowed to own weapons so they could overthrow a tyrannical, illegitimate government.
Well?

Because democracy means the people are responsible for everything the government does.

One question: Did you only read the topic title and completely skip through the 1st post? i gave an example on how the majority here DID NOT vote for Bush, and also a reason why most Americans don't protest out in the streets about the current state of things. Please people, read the whole post instead of just skimming through or reading only the title, jeez.

We can read the OP and understand it, but still disagree with it. You asked why people abroad hate Americans for the actions of the U.S. government. You also placed a restriction on what we can come up with for reasons, which effectively keeps us from giving you the ACTUAL reason.

They don't care that 51% of 41% of the voting age population elected Bush (or whatever the actual numbers are, you get my point). In their eyes, the other 59% who didn't vote are complicit in putting him in power, making them just as guilty as the 51% x 41%.

Those who are afraid of taking the abuse that is the price to be paid for government protest are just as complicit in their eyes as those who sit at home apathetically.

Question asked, question answered.

Because we're hypocrites. Always have been, always will be. I never swallowed the pablum the indoctrination camp called "public school" taught. 'Course I do belong to a conquered culture twice over, so I didn't grow up with the rose-white-&-blue colored glasses on as firmly as most.
If all the voting irregularities that have occured here in the US had occurred in another country, we'd be the jerks shaking our heads and rolling our eyes knowingly (like they have been for 6 yrs). But nooooo.... We TRUST our system. And if we don't, we'll just enjoy our material comforts and entertainments and sit back on our huge McFeast butts and try to ignore the problem until it goes away. Oh yeah, and whine about it when we can't ignore it. :) There, I'm an American.
sigh. I'm so typical. :(

1. Almost half the people out there are of below average intelligence. These people who can't be bothered to think make up a large portion of those who focus anger on Americans rather than the Governemnt.

2. Dispite the fact the majority of Americans did not vote for Bush in either election, Americans did elect him, and then re-elect him by a bigger margin (he actually won the popular vote the second time round) the second time.

3. On message boards there are a large number of vocal Americans who endlessly spout crap straigyht from the Bush Administration, blindly supporting torture, illegal wars, human rights abuses and decrying any who oppose them as terrorist sympathising, librul european commies. So in the contect of forums it is not hard to start to think most Americans think like this.

Because a great deal of you are armed, and are for some reason tolerating an illegal government in your own land instead of taking things into your own hands?

*edits*

And as Free Randomers says - there is a very vocal fascist element from the US on these forums.

Almost half the people out there are of below average intelligence.

:D

[/sigs]

People find it easier to vent anger at a tangible element when such is available. So, if an American comes here, proclaiming his nation to be the greatest and fails to see the flaws, people will inherently lob their frustrations at him.

Many American people loudly proclaim that they are a shining beacon of Democracy.

When you make that claim - however misguided a claim it may be - it is implicit that the people freely chose that government and are thus directly responsible for its actions.
Great--guilt by association! That's just perfect. Completely violates all standards of justice.

Great--guilt by association! That's just perfect. Completely violates all standards of justice.
It works for the Bush administration in their ...*booming voice over* WAR ON TERROR.

It works for the Bush administration in their ...*booming voice over* WAR ON TERROR.
It only works on those who've given up on thinking for themselves.

Great--guilt by association! That's just perfect. Completely violates all standards of justice.

Justice is a myth. But we're not talking courts of law here anyway. People's opinions are formed (1) by what they know and (2) generalizations of what they know on what they don't know. People hear or read the news and TV shows and magazines and see American arrogance infiltrating everything. Anger toward Americans in general is a logical conclusion with only that information.

Why is it that alot of people outside the US focus their anger towards Americans and not the American Government. Some people act as if we (Americans) personally approved as a whole to wage war on Iraq, or to pass a bill on legalized torture, or to create sick scenarios such as Gitmo and Abu Ghairab. I hear many say its because nobody protests it. Like for an example, how this one Frenchman told me that Americans were too apathetic and how his people in France protested the job situation in their country. Its probably because the French military won't try and supress them like they will here in the US. If you think its BS, just look in history when Americans protested for civil rights, or against the Vietnam war. The National Guard shot tear gas at them and hosed them down with fire hoses in some cases and alot were arrested and beaten. And as for people who say "Well you people voted the current regime in", thats the biggest crock of shit ever. For those of you that think that, remember that on the popular vote, Bush lost both times, and it was thanks to a decision by the Supreme Court that he was elected, not the decision of the American people. And take a look at his approval rating, 37% according to CNN last month. So again people, i ask, why is it Americans recieve so much hate for the actions of a government that most Americans despise as well?:(

Bush only lost the popular vote the first time. The second time he won the popular vote. It was the closest margin of victory ever, but he won it.

its americans job to fix america.

Why is it that alot of people outside the US focus their anger towards Americans and not the American Government. Some people act as if we (Americans) personally approved as a whole to wage war on Iraq, or to pass a bill on legalized torture, or to create sick scenarios such as Gitmo and Abu Ghairab. I hear many say its because nobody protests it. Like for an example, how this one Frenchman told me that Americans were too apathetic and how his people in France protested the job situation in their country. Its probably because the French military won't try and supress them like they will here in the US. If you think its BS, just look in history when Americans protested for civil rights, or against the Vietnam war. The National Guard shot tear gas at them and hosed them down with fire hoses in some cases and alot were arrested and beaten. And as for people who say "Well you people voted the current regime in", thats the biggest crock of shit ever. For those of you that think that, remember that on the popular vote, Bush lost both times, and it was thanks to a decision by the Supreme Court that he was elected, not the decision of the American people. And take a look at his approval rating, 37% according to CNN last month. So again people, i ask, why is it Americans recieve so much hate for the actions of a government that most Americans despise as well?:(

I'm a lot anti-Bush, but I'm not anti-american. This is why sometimes I spend my time trying to get the americans awake and rising against those (insert swearword or insult here) that are ruling the US nowadays.

Anyway.

Few people in the US protest. How many protested in Washington against the abuses at Guantanamo etc? Here in Italy, when Berlusconi tried to modify some of the current worker's rights bill, 3 millions people (out of 57 millions italians) marched through the streets of Rome in protest - and Berlusconi had to stop.
Ok in the US military and police are used against the protesters. So what? Look at the G8 in Genova (2001). I was there and saw a lot of interesting things. The ordinary policemen and the special police squads fired suffocating gases (HCN derivates) at the protesters, from ground and from helicopters. They beated journalists and took away the pictures they took, and jailed them on no accusation. The police charged at the protesters as they marched through the underpass of Brignole railway station, causing more panic and preventing them from escaping - and caring nothing of people risking getting stomped to death by the fleeing crowd. In 1968 and '70s, many protesters were killed by the italian police and carabinieri, by shooting or by running them over with LAVs. Same goes for France, for example.
Still italians and french protest and march through the streets, and, sometimes, something is gained through protests.

About voting, too few americans vote. Why do so few CITIZENS (as opposed to subjects) vote? In Europe (except UK) political poll turnouts are WAAAY higher, up to more than 80% in Italy. And don't tell me you don't want to choose between Dems and Reps, because you still can create new parties of your liking! US citizens care too little of big politics. It is time to get responsible and involved!

So please, americans, reclaim the streets and protest! Get rid of political apathy! After all, who are those who rose against an empire and reclaimed self-determination? Think of Benjy Franklin!

You voted for it, you take the flack for it.

When the US government is doing good things, the American people are all to quick to jump in and take the credit as an American citizen.

When it's doing wrong, you try to disown it.

You can't have it both ways.

Either you take the good and the bad, or you take neither.

For the same reason that some people see criticism or hatred towards the American government as hatred towards the American PEOPLE: It suits an agenda. I've been called an US-hater countless times for daring to criticize the commander-in-chimp, too, so this "let's confuse people and government" thing is in BOTH sides of the spectrum.

commander-in-chimp

:p

:p

I also do weddings and bar-mitzvahs. ;)

I also do weddings and bar-mitzvahs. ;)

double ugh.

Why is it that alot of people outside the US focus their anger towards Americans and not the American Government. Some people act as if we (Americans) personally approved as a whole to wage war on Iraq, or to pass a bill on legalized torture, or to create sick scenarios such as Gitmo and Abu Ghairab. I hear many say its because nobody protests it. Like for an example, how this one Frenchman told me that Americans were too apathetic and how his people in France protested the job situation in their country. Its probably because the French military won't try and supress them like they will here in the US. If you think its BS, just look in history when Americans protested for civil rights, or against the Vietnam war. The National Guard shot tear gas at them and hosed them down with fire hoses in some cases and alot were arrested and beaten. And as for people who say "Well you people voted the current regime in", thats the biggest crock of shit ever. For those of you that think that, remember that on the popular vote, Bush lost both times, and it was thanks to a decision by the Supreme Court that he was elected, not the decision of the American people. And take a look at his approval rating, 37% according to CNN last month. So again people, i ask, why is it Americans recieve so much hate for the actions of a government that most Americans despise as well?:(

Funnily enough, most people in other countries actually believe that Americans live in a democracy, and therefore the government does what the people tell it to do.:rolleyes:

Unfortunately, it doesn't. But not everyone likes to admit that government is sliding towards dictatorship.

Why do most people focus their anger towards Americans and not the American Govt.
Because you are responsible for your government. Any power it has it has because Americans selected these people to rule. And if you feel your government has gotten out of hand, it is your responsibility to remove it - by force, if necessary.

As long as you're happy to sit back and live under it, you are responsible for it.

because they were stupid enough to elect such a government.

Why is it that alot of people outside the US focus their anger towards Americans and not the American Government. Some people act as if we (Americans) personally approved as a whole to wage war on Iraq, or to pass a bill on legalized torture, or to create sick scenarios such as Gitmo and Abu Ghairab. I hear many say its because nobody protests it. Like for an example, how this one Frenchman told me that Americans were too apathetic and how his people in France protested the job situation in their country. Its probably because the French military won't try and supress them like they will here in the US. If you think its BS, just look in history when Americans protested for civil rights, or against the Vietnam war. The National Guard shot tear gas at them and hosed them down with fire hoses in some cases and alot were arrested and beaten. And as for people who say "Well you people voted the current regime in", thats the biggest crock of shit ever. For those of you that think that, remember that on the popular vote, Bush lost both times, and it was thanks to a decision by the Supreme Court that he was elected, not the decision of the American people. And take a look at his approval rating, 37% according to CNN last month. So again people, i ask, why is it Americans recieve so much hate for the actions of a government that most Americans despise as well?:(

Qouted. For. Truth.

Why are Americans constantly whining about being blamed for the actions of the government we elected?

Why are Americans constantly whining about being blamed for the actions of the government we elected?

Probably because not all americans voted Republican or Democrat, some like myself are voters for the Independent party. So you guys have a point that the majority of people here voted these dickheads as rulers, but saying "all" Americans is nothing but a stereotype. As hard as it maybe to believe, there are some people here that have political views similar to Europe. True, we are a minority, but its just annoying as hell when i just hear "Americans are to blame", because although it maybe the majority, its not "everybody". I have tried to organize a peaceful protest back in my hometown of Lexington, North Carolina. But i was only able to gather about 90 people, and we were met with angry townspeople and shortly after, the cops told us to go back to our homes or be arrested for disturbing the peace (we were demonstrating in front of the courthouse). Anyways, i guess there really is nothing else i can say, either way, i guess you guys will always view me with disgust no matter what. Makes me almost wish my family never immigrated here in the 1930's from Italy...

Because the American people elected the American government? Or rather, didn't protect their democratic system enough against this particular government?

My my my such prejudice. :rolleyes:

Fifty-Eight million people didn't vote for him.

Because a great deal of you are armed, and are for some reason tolerating an illegal government in your own land instead of taking things into your own hands?

*edits*

And as Free Randomers says - there is a very vocal fascist element from the US on these forums.

If the people strike first then that gives the government the image of fighting against a coup, which will then draw the support of the UN. Fast forward about ten years, the rebellion is crushed, the second amendment abolished and the federal system of government replaced by a centralized one. For the conspiracy theorists out there, expect ONE to be declared within a century.

The only way Europe wouldn't complain is if the US became exactly like them. If that happens, than the only way the fucking Marxists in control would know I'm alive would be by the buildings and bodies I leave in ruin.

http://www.abestweb.com/smilies/beat_deadhorse.gif

Damn it! Such eloquence! :D

You could send Donald Rumsfeld on a world tour without any security to draw some flak

o.O

Because people who focus their anger towards Americans are idiots in the same league of the government they despise.

Why are Americans constantly whining about being blamed for the actions of the government we elected?

I didn't elect them.

Because democracy means the people are responsible for everything the government does.

Most governments, when elected, do the exact opposite of what they said they would do. Examples: "We will not send American boys 9,000 or 10,000 miles away to do what Southeast Asian boys ought to be doing to protect themselves." "Read my lips. No new taxes." Etc.

I didn't elect them.

Nor did I.

My my my such prejudice. :rolleyes:

Fifty-Eight million people didn't vote for him.

As I said, I've been told over and over again that USAmericans feel the need to own guns in case their government turns tyrannical...

To draw an example (and don't you DARE godwin me, I'm not comparing Bush with Hitler, I'm comparing democracies and way they can fail), the NSDAP never gained a majority either. And yet it was indeed the fault of the German people for not standing up to them and for letting them get away with simply taking over.
Sure, there were people in the resistance, and I for one would stereotype neither my own country nor the US to the extend of ignoring those. However, the question was why many others regard the USA unfavourably, and I was trying to explain why.
Take it or leave it.

Because you are responsible for your government. Any power it has it has because Americans selected these people to rule. And if you feel your government has gotten out of hand, it is your responsibility to remove it - by force, if necessary.

As long as you're happy to sit back and live under it, you are responsible for it.
That won't work. I ain't got no tank.

The only way Europe wouldn't complain is if the US became exactly like them. If that happens, than the only way the fucking Marxists in control would know I'm alive would be by the buildings and bodies I leave in ruin.

Do you think Marxists are in control in Europe?
Is Tony Blair a Marxist? (no, he's right-wing of labour party)
or Romano Prodi? (no, he's a centre-left christian democrat)
or Angela Merkel? (no, she's a centre-right christian democrat)
or Jacques Chirac? (no, he's a Gaullist centre-right-winger)
or Zapatero? (no, he's a left-wing social democrat)
also the right wing is in power is Sweden and Portugal, as far as I remember...
and the EU chief commissioner is a right-winger...

No Americans are too busy getting fat watching reality TV.

You could send Donald Rumsfeld on a world tour without any security to draw some flak
Which type? 40mm, 88mm, or 155mm?

Do you think Marxists are in control in Europe?
Is Tony Blair a Marxist? (no, he's right-wing of labour party)
or Romano Prodi? (no, he's a centre-left christian democrat)
or Angela Merkel? (no, she's a centre-right christian democrat)
or Jacques Chirac? (no, he's a Gaullist centre-right-winger)
or Zapatero? (no, he's a left-wing social democrat)
also the right wing is in power is Sweden and Portugal, as far as I remember...
and the EU chief commissioner is a right-winger...

And this is the liberal-leftie Europe everyone likes to have a go at...

http://www.abestweb.com/smilies/popcorn.gif
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Popcornklau.gif

Here we go again with that topic. Like so many have said before, it probably is because the people are somewhat responsible for the government they have, either because they voted for them or didn't care enough not to vote for them (or do something else with it). Hence the reaction. Plus the influence the U.S. and their decisions have in/on the world.

Which type? 40mm, 88mm, or 155mm?
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/AchtAchter.jpg should suffice.

One question: Did you only read the topic title and completely skip through the 1st post? i gave an example on how the majority here DID NOT vote for Bush, and also a reason why most Americans don't protest out in the streets about the current state of things. Please people, read the whole post instead of just skimming through or reading only the title, jeez.

You stated that the average US citizen doesn't go out an protest the corruption or incompetence or bad decision-making of the government because they could get tear-gassed or fire-hosed-- essentially, "we don't take a stand because it could be uncomfortable, it might hurt." Personally I think that's a key part of why some non-Americans feel disdain. It would be one thing if everyone else thought your government sucked, but everyone in the US thought it was doing a great job-- it's scary enough now, that *any* common person can continue to support such a degenerate administration. But the fact that so many Americans presently disapprove, and yet still there are no HUGE protests or riots or even civil disobedience, because "well, it would be hard." Even if you feel no responsibility to oppose a bad domestic government for the sake of the rest of the world that is so effected by your leaders, but that you don't even take action to help yourselves... what do you expect other than some contempt? And of course it would be "hard" to oust such a gang of power-hungry baseling facists, but if you do nothing then you're complicit, and if you sit back and allow it to continue long enough then eventually you become comfortable-- and with time, supportive-- of the status quo, until those who once at least spoke out no longer do so. And at that point, every last fast, lazy, complacent one of you is culpable, and deserving of the lousy regime you've allowed to go on.

And before you think I'm specifically bashing the US alone, the same goes for any corrupt regime where the citizens sit back and whine and bitch and complain and yet do nothing more substantative to effect a change. ANY self-respecting electorate that feels utterly failed by its leaders *ought* to be rioting. And anyone whose sole reason for not doing so is "well I could get arrested," well how long does that continue to be a valid excuse? Until your government starts rounding up minority groups and sending them to internment or extermination camps? Until secret police are given the power to dissappear you for being caught outside past curfiew? Give them an inch and they'll take a mile, so if you're *ever* going to get angry enough to take action you should do it sooner rather than later, now rather than never.

To draw an example (and don't you DARE godwin me, I'm not comparing Bush with Hitler, I'm comparing democracies and way they can fail), the NSDAP never gained a majority either. And yet it was indeed the fault of the German people for not standing up to them and for letting them get away with simply taking over.
They did, in fact. We just didn't (and don't) have a two-party system. 43% is a majority if the other parties all have less than 20%.

And at that point, most Germans weren't just letting them get away with seizing the power...

because american people Can be so holier-than-thou in their expression of views (and defendant against a system that is faulty and actions that is horrible), and as stated here the elected this government, but my main anger is focused on the am. gov.

To draw an example (and don't you DARE godwin me, I'm not comparing Bush with Hitler, I'm comparing democracies and way they can fail), the NSDAP never gained a majority either. And yet it was indeed the fault of the German people for not standing up to them and for letting them get away with simply taking over.
Sure, there were people in the resistance, and I for one would stereotype neither my own country nor the US to the extend of ignoring those. However, the question was why many others regard the USA unfavourably, and I was trying to explain why.
Take it or leave it.

In fact, the NSDAP didn't take control over Germany - it was a present of an insane old president. (Hindenburg).

The German Reichstag hadn't had any function since 1930, where the last normal government broke. From then, the chancellors were nominated by the president, who was already very old. He changed the chancellors regulary. But At the beginning at 1933, the situation became better. The unemployment rate decreased, and the NSDAP lost influence. In the last democratic elections, they fell down to around 30%. And as the NSDAP was bancrupt, normaly she would have disapeared soon.

But then the German persident nominated Hitler as chancellor - and he was so clever, that he got enough power to establish a dictatorship.

The Weimarer republic didn't end because a mad dictator came around - it ended because the parliament became useless three years ago, so that nobody could control the government.

They did, in fact. We just didn't (and don't) have a two-party system. 43% is a majority if the other parties all have less than 20%.

And at that point, most Germans weren't just letting them get away with seizing the power...

I am German, honey.
They got 43%, which per se didn't allow them to govern the country alone. But that's what they did, anyway. And that's what they got away with because nobody reacted.

In fact, the NSDAP didn't take control over Germany - it was a present of an insane old president. (Hindenburg).

The German Reichstag hadn't had any function since 1930, where the last normal government broke. From then, the chancellors were nominated by the president, who was already very old. He changed the chancellors regulary. But At the beginning at 1933, the situation became better. The unemployment rate decreased, and the NSDAP lost influence. In the last democratic elections, they fell down to around 30%. And as the NSDAP was bancrupt, normaly she would have disapeared soon.

But then the German persident nominated Hitler as chancellor - and he was so clever, that he got enough power to establish a dictatorship.

The Weimarer republic didn't end because a mad dictator came around - it ended because the parliament became useless three years ago, so that nobody could control the government.


It ended because it was allowed to end.

You stated that the average US citizen doesn't go out an protest the corruption or incompetence or bad decision-making of the government because they could get tear-gassed or fire-hosed-- essentially, "we don't take a stand because it could be uncomfortable, it might hurt." Personally I think that's a key part of why some non-Americans feel disdain.And as usual, you nailed it. Howcome you don't post more often?

Do you think Marxists are in control in Europe?
Is Tony Blair a Marxist? (no, he's right-wing of labour party)
or Romano Prodi? (no, he's a centre-left christian democrat)
or Angela Merkel? (no, she's a centre-right christian democrat)
or Jacques Chirac? (no, he's a Gaullist centre-right-winger)
or Zapatero? (no, he's a left-wing social democrat)
also the right wing is in power is Sweden and Portugal, as far as I remember...
and the EU chief commissioner is a right-winger...

Marxist, by my definition, is anyone that's in favor of welfare, progressive income taxes, anti-religion (Marx said that they should be destroyed because, and I quote, "They are the opium of the masses"), or any other of the ideas in the Communist Manifesto. So that includes quite a large blanket.

As for the EU. . . I don't give a damn if Europe becomes a single county (though I doubt that'll happen) as long as they don't start anything with the US. Afterall, Washington once wrote to Touqeville, "One day a United States of Europe will rise and look across to our United States of America."

Marxist, by my definition [...] Here's something you might want to look at. To be blunt; you don't get to define what's Marxism & what's not, especially when you present it as the socio-political system of any first-world country on this planet. By the way, when you quote, try getting it right, or write that you're paraphrasing.

As for the EU. . . I don't give a damn if Europe becomes a single county (though I doubt that'll happen) as long as they don't start anything with the US. Outside your paranoid fantasy land, there's not a chance in hell any EU country, or EU in it's totality, would "start something" with the US. We're both political & economic allies, and neither one of us can stand without the other. Not as we currently do anyway.Afterall, Washington once wrote to Touqeville, "One day a United States of Europe will rise and look across to our United States of America."Oh Dog...

That won't work. I ain't got no tank.
You don't have to win - you just have to fight. Plus, you underestimate guerrila tactics.

The US is powerful largely because of its industrial capacity. If the workers running that industry will not cooperate, the US government is rendered powerless pretty quickly.

It only works on those who've given up on thinking for themselves.

Some days it seems like there are may Americans who fit that description sadly.

I thought I was quoting Marx. If it wasn't exact, my mistake and apologies, but he still said something to that effect.

Is the US and all NATO European members allies now? Yes, but that can always change. Friends can become enemies and enemies can become friends. There are no guarantees in this world, so I like to keep knowledgeable of all options.

I think a contributing factor American voting apathy is that the Supreme Court ruled that most campaign funds cannot be used to promote the candidate (there was an exception, but that revenue is minuscule compared to the others), so they just us it to tar the other. When given the choice between Devil A and Devil B I say, "Screw it, I'm not even bothering."

I'm an American, I love my country, I support my government (I may not agree with everything it does, it's natural not to), I voted for Bush both in 2000 and again in 2004. Do I regret it? Hell no. Kerry would have destroyed us, would have had us bowing down to the demands of the UN and turned us into Europe II. The only reason he came as close of winning as he did was for a few large cities which include NY city, LA, Boston. (Just shows you how out of touch to reality they are)

I personally, do NOT care what the rest of the world thinks of me. If you want to crucify me for saying "God Bless America" then so be it. I am NOT ever going to stop saying that. I speak the truth. If you want to crucify me for having respect for our authority figures then so be it. Some of you say you don't like us because we don't protest and speak out against our government. Well, you're right, we don't usually get out of control, rioting, burning vehicles, if that's the way you want to speak out, then so be it.

Tell you what, you speak out against your government, deal with your own governments. We'll deal with ours in the way we see fit. If you think that we're going to bow down to the demands of the world, you best think again. The only one we'll be answering to is God.

Yes, us Americans, we are spoiled compared to the rest of the world. Every American is spoiled by the Grace of God. Even the ones who don't believe and they don't realize how blessed we are and have been.

Yes our Government has done a lot of stupid things and things that us Americans are ashamed of but we move on. We don't dread on the mistakes that we've made. We learn from them and move on. We aren't going to focus on the past, we're going to look forward to a prosperous future.

I feel that all the hate you (generalization) have could be put to a much greater use, you're creative. Turn all that negative energy into something good for society. You guys are focusing too much on America and the bad we may have done but the time is now to move on. To go forward.

Americans are the focus of ridicule, not hate. The american government is the focus of hate, not ridicule. However, the hate and ridicule splashes a little ether way, due to the close affiliation between the two (being a democratic country with unusually high nationalism). As such, I'd say the general attitude on Americans (or at least mine) is 80%Ridicule/20%Hate and the inverse for the government. To contrast, I don't think one could reasonably hold the chinese as responsible for the reprehensible actions of their government as much as one could do so for Americans.

I'm an American, I love my country, I support my government (I may not agree with everything it does, it's natural not to), I voted for Bush both in 2000 and again in 2004. Do I regret it? Hell no. Kerry would have destroyed us, would have had us bowing down to the demands of the UN and turned us into Europe II. The only reason he came as close of winning as he did was for a few large cities which include NY city, LA, Boston. (Just shows you how out of touch to reality they are)
I would have highlighted the straw men, bit I thought bolding that entire paragraph would make it look more than a little silly. So moving on...

I personally, do NOT care what the rest of the world thinks of me.
The rest of the world generally does not have an opinion of you, just a few nerds on a political forum. Which is in the grand scheme of things irrelavent. What the rest of the world does have an opinion on is your government. The two are not the same. When we, being the 99.9% of non Americans who loathe Bush and the Republican administration, criticise the US government we are criticsing just that, not the American people.

If people remembered that Politicians don't always provide an accurate one-stop generalisations-about-XYZ-race stop this would would be a better place.

If you want to crucify me for saying "God Bless America" then so be it. I am NOT ever going to stop saying that. I speak the truth.
I won't deny it sounds a little silly, but noone's going to stop you saying that.

If you want to crucify me for having respect for our authority figures then so be it. Some of you say you don't like us because we don't protest and speak out against our government. Well, you're right, we don't usually get out of control, rioting, burning vehicles, if that's the way you want to speak out, then so be it.
What gave you the impression that to protest or to speak out is to burn cars? Either you actually believe that, in which case you are grossly misinformed; or it's just another straw man. You can choose which.

Tell you what, you speak out against your government, deal with your own governments. We'll deal with ours in the way we see fit.
We do, (unless you, like me, live in the UK where the so-called Labour government is cracking down on dissent wherever possible) but people speak out against your government too because your government, being the world's most powerful, has far-reaching effects in almost every other nation on the globe. Just as Bush can criticise Venezuela, Iran and Cuba, other nations can criticise him back.

If you think that we're going to bow down to the demands of the world, you best think again. The only one we'll be answering to is God.
So, you use religion as an excuse to rid yourself of your earthly responsibilities? A poor argument, by any means.

Yes, us Americans, we are spoiled compared to the rest of the world. Every American is spoiled by the Grace of God. Even the ones who don't believe and they don't realize how blessed we are and have been.
And spare me the religious tirade, while we're at it.

Yes our Government has done a lot of stupid things and things that us Americans are ashamed of but we move on. We don't dread on the mistakes that we've made. We learn from them and move on. We aren't going to focus on the past, we're going to look forward to a prosperous future.
So, at least you learned from the mistake that was, say, Vietnam and didn't invade Iraq, hmm?

I feel that all the hate you (generalization) have could be put to a much greater use, you're creative. Turn all that negative energy into something good for society. You guys are focusing too much on America and the bad we may have done but the time is now to move on. To go forward.
Who said anything about hating America?

blah blah blah

Tell you what, you speak out against your government, deal with your own governments. We'll deal with ours in the way we see fit.

blah blah blah.

Deal! From now on, I do not want to see any post of yours criticizing, ridiculing or even talking about any other government than your own and I'll do the same.

When you slip up, I'll be there and I will be sure to point out that you break your deals and are hypocritical.

Why is it that alot of people outside the US focus their anger towards Americans and not the American Government. Some people act as if we (Americans) personally approved as a whole to wage war on Iraq, or to pass a bill on legalized torture, or to create sick scenarios such as Gitmo and Abu Ghairab. I hear many say its because nobody protests it. Like for an example, how this one Frenchman told me that Americans were too apathetic and how his people in France protested the job situation in their country. Its probably because the French military won't try and supress them like they will here in the US. If you think its BS, just look in history when Americans protested for civil rights, or against the Vietnam war. The National Guard shot tear gas at them and hosed them down with fire hoses in some cases and alot were arrested and beaten. And as for people who say "Well you people voted the current regime in", thats the biggest crock of shit ever. For those of you that think that, remember that on the popular vote, Bush lost both times, and it was thanks to a decision by the Supreme Court that he was elected, not the decision of the American people. And take a look at his approval rating, 37% according to CNN last month. So again people, i ask, why is it Americans recieve so much hate for the actions of a government that most Americans despise as well?:(

Doesn't matter that 63% of the US population disapproves of his behavior. Less than half of us bothered to vote at all, and not even half of them voted against him. Most Americans simply don't care what the government is doing in our name. The blood of 600,000 innocent Iraqi's is on our hands and while only about a fifth of us think that's a good thing, most the rest of us are prepared to think that it's not really our fault, or literally won't take a drive down the street to vote to stop it.

If American's really wanted this shit to stop, it would have stopped already, but too many of us think that the important matters are things like repealling the estate tax and preventing gay people from getting married.

We deserve their anger.

1. Almost half the people out there are of below average intelligence. These people who can't be bothered to think make up a large portion of those who focus anger on Americans rather than the Governemnt.

2. Dispite the fact the majority of Americans did not vote for Bush in either election, Americans did elect him, and then re-elect him by a bigger margin (he actually won the popular vote the second time round) the second time.

3. On message boards there are a large number of vocal Americans who endlessly spout crap straigyht from the Bush Administration, blindly supporting torture, illegal wars, human rights abuses and decrying any who oppose them as terrorist sympathising, librul european commies. So in the contect of forums it is not hard to start to think most Americans think like this.

1. Where's your source?
2. The electorial vote is there for a reason. It's to give the rural communities a much needed voice in this country.
3. Excuse me, what? You are sadly mistaken, if you are talking about NSG. There is a much louder voice of people that Hate America, our government, and our values. So, with the few, you're damn right, we have a right to voice our support whether you like it or not. Deal with it. We aren't going anywheres. America is here for the long haul.

Because a great deal of you are armed, and are for some reason tolerating an illegal government in your own land instead of taking things into your own hands?

*edits*

And as Free Randomers says - there is a very vocal fascist element from the US on these forums.

Damn straight we're armed. If we were to outlaw arms, do you really think that the criminals are going to obey that law? Are you saying we should ban our right to bear arms? Why not hand them right over to the criminals? Our government hasn't gone infront of any courts to determine it as "illegal". Where's your source? I'll need to see proof from a legitimate source.

People find it easier to vent anger at a tangible element when such is available. So, if an American comes here, proclaiming his nation to be the greatest and fails to see the flaws, people will inherently lob their frustrations at him.

Again, most Americans Do realize that we are NOT perfect. Most do know we have many flaws. Just because you only want to hear us say "God Bless America" and we have the greatest country in the world, is your problems not mine.

Us, Americans, for the most part, are very ashamed of certain events in our history. We move on, we try to learn from our past mistakes. We, Americans, have every right in the world to claim to be the best, this is our home. We have faith, generosity, rights, we are Free, we are America and because America is our home, we have every right to respect her, to love her, to cherish her, regardless of what the world wants us to do.

The best part about America, is that we are NOT the rest of the world. We are America. As my homeland, I pledge allegence to the flag of the United States of America, I salute you.

Damn straight we're armed. If we were to outlaw arms, do you really think that the criminals are going to obey that law? Are you saying we should ban our right to bear arms? Why not hand them right over to the criminals? Our government hasn't gone infront of any courts to determine it as "illegal". Where's your source? I'll need to see proof from a legitimate source.
No, I'm saying that you could have unseated Bush in 2000 and bloody well should have done.

No, I'm saying that you could have unseated Bush in 2000 and bloody well should have done.

2004, actually, but yes, and many of us thought we had. Funny about that.

Again, most Americans Do realize that we are NOT perfect. Most do know we have many flaws. Just because you only want to hear us say "God Bless America" and we have the greatest country in the world, is your problems not mine.

Us, Americans, for the most part, are very ashamed of certain events in our history. We move on, we try to learn from our past mistakes. We, Americans, have every right in the world to claim to be the best, this is our home. We have faith, generosity, rights, we are Free, we are America and because America is our home, we have every right to respect her, to love her, to cherish her, regardless of what the world wants us to do.

Yes - though you are, of course, completely wrong. America isn't the best, not by a long shot. It's actually quite far down on the list.

And not the greatest at all. It's scores poor in too many respects. Violence, drugs, unemplyment, the corruption in the government, the corruption in private enterprise, the poor healthcare system and the horrendous educational system. No, give me Canada or France any day.
I think Canada is the greatest nation on earth.





...





Now, feel for some anger inside of you because of this post. Did you feel any indignation? If you didn't feel any bad feelings at all: Good on ya! :) :fluffle: Please disregard what I've written above - I wasn't serious.

However, if you DID feel something - a touch of anger perhaps, or resignation due to my ignorance - welcome to the feelings many have when some people go around shouting "We are the greatest". It's not that the world don't want you to love your country, but the world wants you to respect the love others have for their countries as well. Me saying "we are the best" implies that you aren't. Not all people like that.

Again, most Americans Do realize that we are NOT perfect. Most do know we have many flaws. Just because you only want to hear us say "God Bless America" and we have the greatest country in the world, is your problems not mine.

Us, Americans, for the most part, are very ashamed of certain events in our history. We move on, we try to learn from our past mistakes. We, Americans, have every right in the world to claim to be the best, this is our home. We have faith, generosity, rights, we are Free, we are America and because America is our home, we have every right to respect her, to love her, to cherish her, regardless of what the world wants us to do.

The best part about America, is that we are NOT the rest of the world. We are America. As my homeland, I pledge allegence to the flag of the United States of America, I salute you.


*lol

Ladies and gentlemen, another fine example underlining the theory that patriotism in its final stages makes coherent thought nearly impossible.

They're the same uninformed and oversimplifying mentality as people who are incapable of seeing Muslims as anything but Taliban grade 3b1l 7err0r1z7z 80rgz who want to assimilate everyone into a "World Caliphate". In other words, they see and hear what they want to hear without bothering to look at the nuances.

*lol

Ladies and gentlemen, another fine example underlining the theory that patriotism in its final stages makes coherent thought nearly impossible.

I never did like patriotism much... Not nationalism either.

I never did like patriotism much... Not nationalism either.

Neither did I ... but that rant was involuntarily funny. Any comedian would be happy to come up with an overboard, absurd and desultory monologue like this. :D

Neither did I ... but that rant was involuntarily funny. Any comedian would be happy to come up with an overboard, absurd and desultorily monologue like this. :D
http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/gen148.gif

:D You're right about that ;)

Why do most people focus their anger towards Americans and not the American Govt.

Because America does have an objectionable culture, which it often imposes on many others.

1. Almost half the people out there are of below average intelligence.


1. Where's your source?

Your stupidity makes me very sad. :(

2004, actually, but yes, and many of us thought we had. Funny about that.
*sighs*

I mean in a non-voting manner, to be honest.

He stole the election in 2000. An armed populace shouldn't just stand for that.

People hate us because it's the obnoxious right wingers blindly chanting "USA! USA!" that are talking the loudest. They're all anyone can hear, so the rest of the world either forgets or is not aware of those of us that can actually think for ourselves.


"That's why we have leaders. So we don't have to think."

People hate us because it's the obnoxious right wingers blindly chanting "USA! USA!" that are talking the loudest. They're all anyone can hear, so the rest of the world either forgets or is not aware of those of us that can actually think for ourselves.
Correct!

*sighs*

I mean in a non-voting manner, to be honest.

He stole the election in 2000. An armed populace shouldn't just stand for that.

Overthrowing the government wouldn't resolves the differences people in this country have. It'd just make it worse. Overthrowing Bush (fun as that sounds) wouldn't result in a new demcratic government, it would result in civil war and chaos. Face it, we're stuck with the chimp for another two years.

And as for people who say "Well you people voted the current regime in", thats the biggest crock of shit ever. For those of you that think that, remember that on the popular vote, Bush lost both times, and it was thanks to a decision by the Supreme Court that he was elected, not the decision of the American people. of Course the War party cheated at Florida.. but still close to 50% voted for them..

more important.. Most US voters aproved the War all along (yes.. most have changed their minds.. lately)

but before you ask "why? why all the hate? we do not deserve the hate.. only half of US voted for the chimp.."

ask yourself how many of the half-a-million killed in Iraq voted for Saddam?

just keep in mind.. You are talking about words.. I am talking about death.

You don't have to win - you just have to fight.

And what exactly do you think McVeigh was doing? If we don't successfully overthrow the government, nothing changes, and we just have one more "terrorist" on the list.

Plus, you underestimate guerrila tactics.

The US is powerful largely because of its industrial capacity. If the workers running that industry will not cooperate, the US government is rendered powerless pretty quickly.

You're assuming a level of popular support for revolution far exceeding the actual support existing. If every worker stopped cooperating, that'd be an army large enough to conquor a continent.

The US is powerful largely because of its industrial capacity. If the workers running that industry will not cooperate, the US government is rendered powerless pretty quickly.Revolution sans AK47s.
"If all workers stop working.. the Gov falls"..
sounds nice.. but its just a pipe dream.

How many hated dictators have actually fallen.. withoud armed insurgence, what percentage?

Revolution without blood. "If all workers stop working.. the Gov falls"..
true.. in theory.

How many hated dictators have actually fallen.. withoud blood, what percentage?

Honecker comes to mind....

(Marx said that they should be destroyed because, and I quote, "They are the opium of the masses")
Proof? He regarded religion as "the opium of the masses" but he didn't say it should be destroyed. Very few people in the west think that religion should be destroyed.

Honecker comes to mind....this is not a case of a Dictator falling because "Workers stopped working"..

this is more a case of East Germany going the way of the dodo.

and.. the USSR cracking down.

ask yourself how many of the half-a-million killed in Iraq voted for Saddam?

It's about 50,000 (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/), not 500,000 killed.

It's about 50,000 (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/), not 500,000 killed.
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1084

Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

--60 Minutes (5/12/96)

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1084

Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

--60 Minutes (5/12/96)
Oceandrive was talking about the war since 2003. It's a well established, but separate fact that sanctions killed 600,000 Iraqis during the 1990s and put Hussein in the top ten world rich list.

Someone should murder Albrights kids and then ask her again. It's fairly easy to decide what price is right...if you're not the one paying.

this is not a case of a Dictator falling because "Workers stopped working"..

this is more a case of East Germany going the way of the dodo.

and.. the USSR cracking down.

Right... nobody in Eastern Germany ever did anything to bring about a change of government. Nobody ever took to the street in protest, nobody ever raided the Stasi archives, nobody ever forced free elections. It all just happened miraculously. :rolleyes:

Oceandrive was talking about the war since 2003. It's a well established, but separate fact that sanctions killed 600,000 Iraqis during the 1990s and put Hussein in the top ten world rich list.
I don't think they can be separated, really. One is just a continuance of the other by different means.

It's about 50,000 (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/), not 500,000 killed.
iraqbodycount is only about the death in Baghdad and the other Iraq towns accesible by the media.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442_pf.html
A team of American and Iraqi epidemiologists estimates that 655,000 more people have died in Iraq since coalition forces arrived in March 2003 than would have died if the invasion had not occurred.

The estimate, produced by interviewing residents during a random sampling of households throughout the country, is far higher than ones produced by other groups, including Iraq's government.

It is more than 20 times the estimate of 30,000 civilian deaths that President Bush gave in a speech in December. It is more than 10 times the estimate of roughly 50,000 civilian deaths made by the British-based Iraq Body Count research group.

The surveyors said they found a steady increase in mortality since the invasion, with a steeper rise in the last year that appears to reflect a worsening of violence as reported by the U.S. military, the news media and civilian groups. In the year ending in June, the team calculated Iraq's mortality rate to be roughly four times what it was the year before the war.

Of the total 655,000 estimated "excess deaths," 601,000 resulted from violence and the rest from disease and other causes...

If everyone just did what we ask of them their would be no problems.
Bush would be happy America would be happy and you would be safe!