NationStates Jolt Archive

You know, there have been a lot of pundits who have wasted a lot of energy and computer space and ink talking about how brilliant the GOP spin machine is, when they really aren't. What they are, more than anything else, is willing to say the exact opposite of what they had been saying and act as though that's what they were saying all along. In short, they're utterly shameless.

Here's the latest example (http://thinkprogress.org/2006/10/23/bartlett-stay-the-course/). For the last six months, the GOP, from Bush down to bloggers, has been trying to bash the Democrats with the "Stay the course or cut and run" meme. Problem is, US voters aren't buying it and they haven't been for a while. Over 60% of the US public wants us out of Iraq--cut and run is the preferred strategy. So what's the GOP response to that?

George W. Bush (http://thinkprogress.org/2006/10/22/bush-stay-the-course/) on "This Week" yesterday said "We've never been stay the course," as though all those times he said "stay the course" over the last six months really meant "eat pie."

Mmmm. Pie.

We have never been at war with Eastasia, of course.

Don't look on them too harshly. After all, if they didn't lie, you'd hear nothing but crickets chirping at every press conference.

We have never been at war with Eastasia, of course.

Don't look on them too harshly. After all, if they didn't lie, you'd hear nothing but crickets chirping at every press conference.
I like crickets. ;)

i've been wondering for a while now - are any of them even capable of not lying at least once per time they open their mouths? i can't think of the last time i heard a republican say something without at least one lie in it - i'm not sure there has been such an occasion in my lifetime.

Ok, I think this is a misunderstanding of the message of "stay the course"

In the genral lexicon, this is refering to the American millitaries presence in Iraq at all. In this case however, it apperes to be more specific, IE the tatics used against the insurgents.

Ok, I think this is a misunderstanding of the message of "stay the course"

In the genral lexicon, this is refering to the American millitaries presence in Iraq at all. In this case however, it apperes to be more specific, IE the tatics used against the insurgents.

You're giving them a hell of a lot of room there. The GOP has never been that nuanced when using "stay the course" as a stick with which to beat their opponents. Why should we give them the benefit of the doubt now?

I always hear Jon Lovitz's Pathological Liar in the back of my mind whenever the GOP pulls something like this. Remember it was "Saddam has weapons of mass destruction ... no, wait, he was connected with al-Qaeda ... no, he was teh ebil dictator ... yeah, that's it, he was ebil ... yeah, that's the ticket." What sickens me is that they're now going to trumpet this all over the place for the next two weeks and people are going to actually believe it. You'll find people soon who will tell you with a straight face that Bush never even used the words "stay the course."

I always hear Jon Lovitz's Pathological Liar in the back of my mind whenever the GOP pulls something like this. Remember it was "Saddam has weapons of mass destruction ... no, wait, he was connected with al-Qaeda ... no, he was teh ebil dictator ... yeah, that's it, he was ebil ... yeah, that's the ticket." What sickens me is that they're now going to trumpet this all over the place for the next two weeks and people are going to actually believe it. You'll find people soon who will tell you with a straight face that Bush never even used the words "stay the course."

And they'll post it here, no doubt.

The president has never claimed that we must forevermore employ the same tactics in Iraq as we did at the beginning of our mission there. The US military is a highly flexible body which is constantly changing and adapting to new threats to the nascent Iraqi republic's stability and security. While we must remain in Iraq, we should not use less effective tactics, and that's what Bush was expounding upon. He was highlighting the necessity of using new means to combat the terrorists instead of sticking to the same old principles. Also, if you are interested, the president uttered some truly inspiring remarks upon the subject to the UN recently regarding Iraq.

Nearly 12 million of you braved the car bombers and assassins last December to vote in free elections. The world saw you hold up purple ink-stained fingers, and your courage filled us with admiration. You've stood firm in the face of horrendous acts of terror and sectarian violence -- and we will not abandon you in your struggle to build a free nation. America and our coalition partners will continue to stand with the democratic government you elected. We will continue to help you secure the international assistance and investment you need to create jobs and opportunity, working with the United Nations and through the International Compact with Iraq endorsed here in New York yesterday. We will continue to train those of you who stepped forward to fight the enemies of freedom. We will not yield the future of your country to terrorists and extremists. In return, your leaders must rise to the challenges your country is facing, and make difficult choices to bring security and prosperity. Working together, we will help your democracy succeed, so it can become a beacon of hope for millions in the Muslim world.

To learn more about the president's agenda in Iraq, you should consult the White House (http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/) web-site which deals with the situation in Iraq; it is quite informative.

And they'll buy it hook, line and sinker.

Busheviks are an even bigger hive-mind collective than they claim t3h 3b1l |\/|0zl3|\/|z ever will be.

Oh look, it's Republican projection again :D

wow this is almost as bad as saying the moon landing never happened, or the holocaust never occured. What assholes.

The only assholes are the ones that fell for the sound bite and didnt watch the whole interview or read the transcript...

Hook line and sinker all right...they thought they saw some bush chum in the water and swarmed it like dolts...:D

There was, of course, no admission that any change had taken place. Merely it became known, with extreme suddenness and everywhere at once, that Eastasia and not Eurasia was the enemy.

On a scarlet-draped platform an orator of the Inner Party, a small lean man with disproportionately long arms and a large bald skull over which a few lank locks straggled, was haranguing the crowd. The speech had been proceeding for perhaps twenty minutes when a messenger hurried on to the platform and a scrap of paper was slipped into the speaker's hand. He unrolled and read it without pausing in his speech. Nothing altered in his voice or manner, or in the content of what he was saying, but suddenly the names were different. Without words said, a wave of understanding rippled through the crowd. Oceania was at war with Eastasia!

The next moment there was a tremendous commotion. The banners and posters with which the square was decorated were all wrong! Quite half of them had the wrong faces on them. It was sabotage! The agents of Goldstein had been at work! There was a riotous interlude while posters were ripped from the walls, banners torn to shreds and trampled underfoot. One minute more, and the feral roars of rage were again bursting from the crowd. The Hate continued exactly as before, except that the target had been changed.

The thing that impressed Winston in looking back was that the speaker had switched from one line to the other actually in midsentence, not only without a pause, but without even breaking the syntax.

Oceania was at war with Eastasia: Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.

;)

The only assholes are the ones that fell for the sound bite and didnt watch the whole interview or read the transcript...

Hook line and sinker all right...they thought they saw some bush chum in the water and swarmed it like dolts...:D

why dont you enlighten us then? did bush go on to explain how HIS cut and run strategy wasnt going to be like the democrats cut and run? or how the "stay the course" he's been preaching for 3 years is suddenly NOT stay the course?

if you saw it, you must know the answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ABC News
STEPHANOPOULOS: Is the government format to your standards right now?

BUSH: The government is — look, I think the guy's been in office for about four months, Maliki. In my judgment, Maliki has got what it takes to lead a unity government.

But what you're seeing is a new form of government actually beginning to evolve after years of tyranny.

I'm patient. I'm not patient forever. And I'm not patient with dawdling. But I recognize the degree of difficulty of the task, and therefore, say to the American people, we won't cut and run.

On the other hand, we'll constantly adjust our strategy to…

STEPHANOPOULOS: Exactly what I wanted to ask you about, because James Baker said that he's looking for something between cut and run…

BUSH: Cut and run and.

STEPHANOPOULOS: … and stay the course.

BUSH: Well, listen, we've never been stay the course, George. We have been — we will complete the mission, we will do our job and help achieve the goal, but we're constantly adjusting the tactics, constantly.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Here's what I don't get.

BUSH: OK.

STEPHANOPOULOS: James Baker's a smart guy. He's got a solid group of people on that study group. But what can he come up with that you and your military commanders haven't already thought of?

BUSH: Well, why don't we wait and see? I don't — you know, we're not in collaboration with the Baker-Hamilton committee. I think this is a good idea, to get people outside to come and take a look.

That's an interesting question. I'm looking forward to seeing the answer.


Ding.....next round.

Bush is Satan ....:D


Stay tuned to the tinfoil hat crowd bolding lines and saying what he meant....was......:D

We have never been at war with Eurasia, of course.


We are allies with Eurasia and at war with Eastasia. Duh!

That is how it's always been. ;)

why dont you enlighten us then? did bush go on to explain how HIS cut and run strategy wasnt going to be like the democrats cut and run? or how the "stay the course" he's been preaching for 3 years is suddenly NOT stay the course?

if you saw it, you must know the answer.

You see, the "stay the course" was not really "stay the course" that you speak of. Someone already got the 1984 reference to Oceania always having been at war with Eastasia, so I am left with blackwhite. You see, to argue that Clinton did not perjure himself when we all know he did is ridiculous blackwhite that does no good for anyone, and you should be ashamed to think that way. However, Bush never said "stay the course" and you must know that while deeply knowing that he did actually say that. It is what's good for the Party of Oceania...I mean, the U.S. This type of blackwhite should be commended.

This is too entertaining for words.

Stay the course? Who told you that? We never said that.

Not once.

And I imagine that the giant banner on the aircraft carrier actually read "we will complete the mission, we will do our job and help achieve the goal, but we're constantly adjusting the tactics, constantly" and not "mission accomplished". How could I be so foolishly and liberally short-sighted?

Ding.....next round.

Bush is Satan ....:D


Stay tuned to the tinfoil hat crowd bolding lines and saying what he meant....was......:D

This is what--underpants gnomes reasoning?

And I imagine that the giant banner on the aircraft carrier actually read "we will complete the mission, we will do our job and help achieve the goal, but we're constantly adjusting the tactics, constantly" and not "mission accomplished". How could I be so foolishly and liberally short-sighted?

Mission...accomplished? Surely those are not the words of Dear Leader. And surely we will gladly stay in Afghanistan for 20 years. And surely we are winning in Iraq, and the insurgency is in its last throes, or something like that. And we all know Iraq never had WMD or ties to al-Qaeda, but no one ever made those claims. Saddam was taken otu for being a cruel dictator, nothing more.

Excuse me while I go become ill.

i've been wondering for a while now - are any of them even capable of not lying at least once per time they open their mouths? i can't think of the last time i heard a republican say something without at least one lie in it - i'm not sure there has been such an occasion in my lifetime.

You might want to stop your bi-partisan bullshit, because guess what, both sides lie. Welcome to politics!

You know, there have been a lot of pundits who have wasted a lot of energy and computer space and ink talking about how brilliant the GOP spin machine is, when they really aren't. What they are, more than anything else, is willing to say the exact opposite of what they had been saying and act as though that's what they were saying all along. In short, they're utterly shameless.

Here's the latest example (http://thinkprogress.org/2006/10/23/bartlett-stay-the-course/). For the last six months, the GOP, from Bush down to bloggers, has been trying to bash the Democrats with the "Stay the course or cut and run" meme. Problem is, US voters aren't buying it and they haven't been for a while. Over 60% of the US public wants us out of Iraq--cut and run is the preferred strategy. So what's the GOP response to that?

George W. Bush (http://thinkprogress.org/2006/10/22/bush-stay-the-course/) on "This Week" yesterday said "We've never been stay the course," as though all those times he said "stay the course" over the last six months really meant "eat pie."

Mmmm. Pie.Thankyou for raising the chocolate rations Big Brother! :D

Maybe he thought it was Opposite Day...

Actually, maybe he thinks *every* day is opposite day. Hmm.
I can't wait until 2008...

Maybe he thought it was Opposite Day...

Actually, maybe he thinks *every* day is opposite day. Hmm.
I can't wait until 2008...Or he lives in Bizzarro World.
http://www.evilkumquat.com/images/bizarro_bush.jpg

Come now, we know they thrive on taking things out of context. Why should this be any different?What's out of context? Teach me, O Great and Wise One. :rolleyes:

Or he lives in Bizzarro World.
http://www.evilkumquat.com/images/bizarro_bush.jpg

Bizarro Bush and Dr. Von Rove. It certainly explains a lot.

I'm not really surprised at this statement of his. I'm sure next week he'll say he's never been for detaining enemy combatants, the war was a stupid idea, and there is no such place as Iraq.

Is it me, or does anyone else think he may be drinking again?

You know, there have been a lot of pundits who have wasted a lot of energy and computer space and ink talking about how brilliant the GOP spin machine is, when they really aren't. What they are, more than anything else, is willing to say the exact opposite of what they had been saying and act as though that's what they were saying all along. In short, they're utterly shameless.

Here's the latest example (http://thinkprogress.org/2006/10/23/bartlett-stay-the-course/). For the last six months, the GOP, from Bush down to bloggers, has been trying to bash the Democrats with the "Stay the course or cut and run" meme. Problem is, US voters aren't buying it and they haven't been for a while. Over 60% of the US public wants us out of Iraq--cut and run is the preferred strategy. So what's the GOP response to that?

George W. Bush (http://thinkprogress.org/2006/10/22/bush-stay-the-course/) on "This Week" yesterday said "We've never been stay the course," as though all those times he said "stay the course" over the last six months really meant "eat pie."

Mmmm. Pie.
This is the problem with ambiguous phrases. I've heard the phrase "stay the course" over and over, too. It appears to take whatever meaning the listener wants to give it, doesn't it? Maybe it means that we won't pull forces out of Iraq until
1. There is a credible government,
2. Police and military forces are able to support the government's policies.

What it appears to mean is that US troops are going to stay and prevent Sunnis and Shiites from killing each other until some other conditions are met. Despite what the transcript says, I don't think the national policy has changed. Do you?

"Stay the course" certainly doesn't mean redeploy to Guam. The idea that we've "never been stay the course" is silly too. Clearly a mistake in speech -- we know that's something Bush is very good at.

Thankyou for raising the chocolate rations Big Brother! :D

Chocolate raisins? :cool:

What's out of context? Teach me, O Great and Wise One. :rolleyes:

Learn to read past what you want to read. It might help.

if they didn't lie, you'd hear nothing but crickets chirping at every press conference.

Preferable by far.

You might want to stop your bi-partisan bullshit, because guess what, both sides lie. Welcome to politics!

i'm just stating an objective fact about the world. i can recall at least one time where a democrat said something without lying or otherwise misrepresenting the truth. i cannot recall the same from a republican. it doesn't matter that "they do it too," when the issue is that one group seems to be incapable of doing otherwise.

Learn to read past what you want to read. It might help.

That's rich, coming from you. Since apparently I seem to be unable to see what you're talking about, why don't you spell it out for me? Or is that beyond your capabilities?

Ding.....next round.

Bush is Satan ....:D


Stay tuned to the tinfoil hat crowd bolding lines and saying what he meant....was......:D

do you find that to be an explanation of how bush ISNT an asshole who just denied his "stay the course" mantra?

i dont.

i do wish that stephanopoulis had followed up but he didnt so we have to take it at face value.

it seems that bush is a flipflopper after all.

Learn to read past what you want to read. It might help.

no really, its not any better in context.


i watched the interview on youtube when i was at my sisters house (i dont have enough bandwidth here for video). thats actually what he said. nothing was left out that would change the meaning.

its not pleasant when a politician you like says something stupid but there is no sense running away from it. it is what it is.

I just fucking lost my fucking mind. Thanks, Nazz. I'm off to stick a turnip up my nose while riding a bicycle through a dress shop.

I just fucking lost my fucking mind. Thanks, Nazz. I'm off to stick a turnip up my nose while riding a bicycle through a dress shop.
That's my skit, buddy!!!

i'm just stating an objective fact about the world. i can recall at least one time where a democrat said something without lying or otherwise misrepresenting the truth. i cannot recall the same from a republican. it doesn't matter that "they do it too," when the issue is that one group seems to be incapable of doing otherwise.

Apparently the GOP just assumes that the voters have lousy memory. Every GOP talking head has repeated "stay the course" and now suddenly Bush tries to exclaim "we never actually said that!"

:rolleyes:

Hopefully more voters will grow a brainstem and see what our current leadership is really about.

Hopefully more voters will grow a brainstem and see what our current leadership is really about.

'Cause it sure as Hell ain't about Leadership.

Wasnt this on the Daily Show a few weeks ago at least?

They had footage of several admin officials saying its not stay the course but some other buzzphrase.

Then theres this with Tony Snow saying that it's not stay the course...
http://nitpicker.blogspot.com/2006/09/tony-snow-who-said-cut-and-run.html\

SNOW: ...(T)he idea that somehow we're staying the course is just wrong. It is absolutely wrong.

Hey there, Su. Hangin' in there?

Wasnt this on the Daily Show a few weeks ago at least?

They had footage of several admin officials saying its not stay the course but some other buzzphrase.


I bet they're going to have a field day with this tonight.

Hey there, Su. Hangin' in there?

hey - yeah we found that she does indeed have hodgkins lymphoma :(
thanks for asking :fluffle:

luckily its one the the cancers with the best success rates when fighting it (or so I hear)

she has a good attitude about it so its helping me stay strong but I am doing all I can to keep her hopes up anyway. She is actually at work right now.


btw, here is the Daily Show clip about the administration saying its not cut and run but adapt and win - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOii8YcKyuM

"Cut and run" always sounded like a euphemism for blowing off in a phone booth or an elevator to me...

In which case, their new soundbyte would've better read, "adapt the wind". Or in a pinch, "pull my finger".

That's my skit, buddy!!!

You can join me. Its harder to bike through the gowns. Lets go!!

I bet they're going to have a field day with this tonight.

When I read this, I immediately started thinking of the montage they'll be putting together.

do you find that to be an explanation of how bush ISNT an asshole who just denied his "stay the course" mantra?

i dont.

i do wish that stephanopoulis had followed up but he didnt so we have to take it at face value.

Well, to be fair to Steph, all these interviews are carefully prepared and scripted these days. He would have had to submit all his questions for approval way before the interview and been instructed to stick to them, regardless of what Bush said.


I see they're already starting with the Eurasia doublespeak. According to a senior White House adviser, Dan Bartlett, the White House thinking had never been properly described by the phrase "stay the course".
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6078532.stm)

So it comes down to this:
Bush: Stay the course!
White House/State Dept: Stay the course!
Bushite sycophants: Stay the course!

Bush: Stay the course!
White House/State Dept: Stay the course!
Bushite sycophants: Stay the course!

Bush: Stay the course!
White House/State Dept: Stay the course!
Bushite sycophants: Stay the course!

Bush: We never said Stay the course!
White House/State Dept: Nope, not once did we use Stay the course!
Bushite sycophants: Stay the what? Dirty Liberal pinko scum accusing Dear Leader of lying! Have they no shame?

Well, to be fair to Steph, all these interviews are carefully prepared and scripted these days. He would have had to submit all his questions for approval way before the interview and been instructed to stick to them, regardless of what Bush said.


oh yeah i forgot about that part. good point.


my favorite conservative radio talk show host (local albuquerque guy, conservative but not a tool for the republican party)was ranting about this change of policy the other day. what set him off i dont know but he was very upset that the republicans are obviously pretending NOW that they are against pulling out of iraq but are going to announce something different after the elections are over.

i guess bush is setting the groundwork for 3 weeks from now.

I hate to break it to you, but the person who first used the phrase "Stay the course" was the interviewer. It was he who planted the word in Bush's mouth. The pharse "Stay the course" when Bush has used it up untill now is just refering to staying in Iraq and keeping on with the plan of democratising it. Whereas in this case, it is being manipulated to make it look like he is going back on himself. In this case, the interviewer is using the phrase stay the course to mean a certian set of tatics. The course is the end, what is being changed here is the means.

Bush isnt without his faults, but this isnt one of them

I hate to break it to you, but the person who first used the phrase "Stay the course" was the interviewer. It was he who planted the word in Bush's mouth.
Planted it months and months ago too, by the look of things.
Obviously Steph has a time machine, eh?

Which makes way more sense than Bush either made a gaff, or the Admin has changed tact and are softening the public up for their 180 after the election.
By which time, we'll have to put up with the bush sycophants on this board (and elsewhere) trumpet loudly about how it's no different to the previous policy and it's always been this way.

I hate to break it to you, but the person who first used the phrase "Stay the course" was the interviewer. It was he who planted the word in Bush's mouth. The pharse "Stay the course" when Bush has used it up untill now is just refering to staying in Iraq and keeping on with the plan of democratising it. Whereas in this case, it is being manipulated to make it look like he is going back on himself. In this case, the interviewer is using the phrase stay the course to mean a certian set of tatics. The course is the end, what is being changed here is the means.

Bush isnt without his faults, but this isnt one of them

so youre saying that as far as you are concerned bush is so weak minded that he can be led into repudiating his 3 year old mantra of "stay the course" by a simple, straightforward question that he probably had seen beforhand? (and that if he hadnt, he surely should have heard of bakers recommendation to have a policy between "stay the course" and "cut and run".)

Bush isnt without his faults
This is understatement to such an extent as to be found in a disused basement closet.
but this isnt one of them
And this is plainly wrong.

And this is plainly wrong.

Context, look at context. The phrase was used not in its original context and is a very vauge rhetorical phrase. It is not a commitment to policy

Previous uses of the phrase "Stay the course" means to stay in Iraq. Bush used that. This was an interviewer's spin on the phrase. Do you think Bush is going to step in, and demand that the English language be overspecified.

so youre saying that as far as you are concerned bush is so weak minded that he can be led into repudiating his 3 year old mantra of "stay the course" by a simple, straightforward question that he probably had seen beforhand? (and that if he hadnt, he surely should have heard of bakers recommendation to have a policy between "stay the course" and "cut and run".)

The phrase is a piece of rhetoric. The great thing about rhetoric is it is very free flowing. As a result the interviewer was easyly able to twist it. This was a media example of twisting someone elses words, nothing else.

Remove the phrasing for a second and look at this logically. When Bush said "stay the course" previously, he was refering to staying in Iraq. This statement does not undo that. Ergo he has not lied.

oh yeah i forgot about that part. good point.


my favorite conservative radio talk show host (local albuquerque guy, conservative but not a tool for the republican party)was ranting about this change of policy the other day. what set him off i dont know but he was very upset that the republicans are obviously pretending NOW that they are against pulling out of iraq but are going to announce something different after the elections are over.

i guess bush is setting the groundwork for 3 weeks from now.

feeling too. Espesh considering how everyone is suddenly saying the same thing. They're not trying to excuse his comments as a gaff - just reiterating it.

As I said b4, these interviews are carefully scripted these days. So Bush knew well in advance he was going to face that question. He invariably screws up when asked something out of the blue, not when he's had time to prepare (and have someone tell him the answer).
When taken all together, it certainly makes it feel like they've decided on a new strategy and and starting to soften the US public up for the change.
What's saddening is the number of bush hiveminds out there (and on here) who will immediately lap it up and mindlessly accept it not as proof the Bush admin has been screwing things up in Iraq for 5 years, but as 'proof' of how great their Dear Leader's leadership accumen is.

And, of course:rolleyes:, anyone who disagrees or tries to point out the flipflop obviously hates Bush and the Iraqi people.
Oh, and Freedom.
And the US flag.
And puppies.

Do you think Bush is going to step in, and demand that the English language be overspecified.

No, I think that Bush supporters will step in, and try to deflect ever-increasing amounts of flung shit from the burnished visage of Fearless Leader. ...And demand that he be treated as a Sacred Cow, inviolate and free from anything even remotely resembling scrutiny.

Context, look at context. The phrase was used not in its original context and is a very vauge rhetorical phrase. It is not a commitment to policy

Previous uses of the phrase "Stay the course" means to stay in Iraq. Bush used that. This was an interviewer's spin on the phrase. Do you think Bush is going to step in, and demand that the English language be overspecified.

I think you have the spinning backwards. The interviewer was presenting Bush the same dichotomy he has used for the last few years in a question, "cut and run" or "stay the course". Bush could easily have gone with "stay the course" as he has in the past and let it be that, but he changed the meaning of the phrase in his answer.

By saying he is not "staying the course" because he was considering changing tactics in Iraq, Bush modified the common usage of the phrase and made it specific to tactics, not overall policy as it has been used many times in the past. It may be part of an effort by the administration to divorce itself from the phrase because the public is tired of it. But the spin was undeniably from Bush's side on this one.

Context, look at context. The phrase was used not in its original context and is a very vauge rhetorical phrase. It is not a commitment to policy

Previous uses of the phrase "Stay the course" means to stay in Iraq. Bush used that. This was an interviewer's spin on the phrase. Do you think Bush is going to step in, and demand that the English language be overspecified.How is it a 'spin' on the phrase?
Have you read/listened to the interview?
STEPHANOPOULOS: Exactly what I wanted to ask you about, because James Baker said that he's looking for something between cut and run and stay the course.
What exactly do you feel is the interviewer's spin on 'stay the course' here?

You yourself have just said it's previously meant staying in Iraq.
How is the question (more a statement really) mean anything else but that?
And how does it not mean staying in Iraq?

I think you have the spinning backwards. The interviewer was presenting Bush the same dichotomy he has used for the last few years in a question, "cut and run" or "stay the course". Bush could easily have gone with "stay the course" as he has in the past and let it be that, but he changed the meaning of the phrase in his answer.

By saying he is not "staying the course" because he was considering changing tactics in Iraq, Bush modified the common usage of the phrase and made it specific to tactics, not overall policy as it has been used many times in the past. It may be part of an effort by the administration to divorce itself from the phrase because the public is tired of it. But the spin was undeniably from Bush's side on this one.

exactly

bush could just as easily have said "we are going to stay the course but that doesnt mean we wont vary our tactics as the situation warrants" but he didnt. and his mouthpieces arent saying it.

they are stepping away from "stay the course" and it probably means that in 3 weeks or so there will be an official change of policy.

exactly

bush could just as easily have said "we are going to stay the course but that doesnt mean we wont vary our tactics as the situation warrants" but he didnt. and his mouthpieces arent saying it.

they are stepping away from "stay the course" and it probably means that in 3 weeks or so there will be an official change of policy.
Or, "By the stay the course, you mean will we stay there until we've done our job? Definitely. Tactics may change but the overall objective won't."

exactly

bush could just as easily have said "we are going to stay the course but that doesnt mean we wont vary our tactics as the situation warrants" but he didnt. and his mouthpieces arent saying it.

they are stepping away from "stay the course" and it probably means that in 3 weeks or so there will be an official change of policy.

How much do you wanna bet the "new" policy will be described in a three word sound bite, constantly presented as the only alternative to "cut and run", and somehow avoid any meaningful change in Iraq?

You know, there have been a lot of pundits who have wasted a lot of energy and computer space and ink talking about how brilliant the GOP spin machine is, when they really aren't. What they are, more than anything else, is willing to say the exact opposite of what they had been saying and act as though that's what they were saying all along. In short, they're utterly shameless.

Here's the latest example (http://thinkprogress.org/2006/10/23/bartlett-stay-the-course/). For the last six months, the GOP, from Bush down to bloggers, has been trying to bash the Democrats with the "Stay the course or cut and run" meme. Problem is, US voters aren't buying it and they haven't been for a while. Over 60% of the US public wants us out of Iraq--cut and run is the preferred strategy. So what's the GOP response to that?

George W. Bush (http://thinkprogress.org/2006/10/22/bush-stay-the-course/) on "This Week" yesterday said "We've never been stay the course," as though all those times he said "stay the course" over the last six months really meant "eat pie."

Mmmm. Pie.
Hmmmm. Stay the course. Hmmmmm.

WASHINGTON, July 10, 2003

U.S. 'Will Stay the Course' in Iraq, Bush Says (http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jul2003/n07102003_200307101.html)

The United States "will stay the course" in Iraq, President Bush said today in Gaberone, Botswana, following a meeting with President Festus Gontebanye Mogae.

Hmmmm. Stay the course. Hmmmmm.

President Addresses the Nation in Prime Time Press Conference (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040413-20.html)

Office of the Press Secretary April 13, 2004

And my message today to those in Iraq is: We'll stay the course; we'll complete the job. My message to our troops is: We will stay the course and complete the job and you'll have what you need.

Hmmmm. Stay the course. Hmmmm Strategy for Victory. Hmmmm

President Outlines Strategy for Victory in Iraq (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/11/20051130-2.html)

Office of the Press Secretary November 30, 2005

Some critics continue to assert that we have no plan in Iraq except to, "stay the course." If by "stay the course," they mean we will not allow the terrorists to break our will, they are right. If by "stay the course," they mean we will not permit al Qaeda to turn Iraq into what Afghanistan was under the Taliban -- a safe haven for terrorism and a launching pad for attacks on America -- they are right, as well. If by "stay the course" they mean that we're not learning from our experiences, or adjusting our tactics to meet the challenges on the ground, then they're flat wrong.
Hmmmm. Stay the course. Hmmmm.

Today. October 2006.

Bush: ‘We’ve Never Been Stay The Course’ (http://thinkprogress.org/2006/10/22/bush-stay-the-course/)

Spin the tale Georgey!!

Oh. my!! :p

How much do you wanna bet the "new" policy will be described in a three word sound bite, constantly presented as the only alternative to "cut and run", and somehow avoid any meaningful change in Iraq?

"Eat my bubble-butt"?

How much do you wanna bet the "new" policy will be described in a three word sound bite, constantly presented as the only alternative to "cut and run", and somehow avoid any meaningful change in Iraq?

how about

PEACE WITH HONOR

it has a ring of history about it.

I guess the US will stay the course?

Army plans current Iraq troop levels until 2010 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15220816/)

Oct 11, 2006

WASHINGTON - The U.S. Army has plans to keep the current level of soldiers in Iraq through 2010, the top Army officer said Wednesday, a later date than Bush administration or Pentagon officials have mentioned thus far.

how about

PEACE WITH HONOR

it has a ring of history about it.

I say it should be

PULL MY FINGER

it has a ring of authenticity about it.

"Eat my bubble-butt"?
"I've fallen and I can't get up!"
or
"There's no place like home!"

"Eat my bubble-butt"?

Let's try it in a press conference:

BUSH: We aren't just going to cut and run here. We will eat my bubble-butt and do our best to insure the Iraqi people have freedom.

Not bad, but I don't think Karl Rove would approve.

Let's try it in a press conference:

BUSH: We aren't just going to cut and run here. We will eat my bubble-butt and do our best to insure the Iraqi people have freedom.

Not bad, but I don't think Karl Rove would approve.

The question is: Would Karl Rove comply?

The question is: Would Karl Rove comply?

In a heartbeat.

I'm going with Dobbsworld on this one.

Some critics continue to assert that we have no plan in Iraq except to, "pull my finger." If by "pull my finger," they mean we will not allow the terrorists to break our will, they are right. If by "pull my finger," they mean we will not permit al Qaeda to turn Iraq into what Afghanistan was under the Taliban -- a safe haven for terrorism and a launching pad for attacks on America -- they are right, as well. If by "pull my finger" they mean that we're not learning from our experiences, or adjusting our tactics to meet the challenges on the ground, then they're flat wrong.

Just sounds....right somehow.

The question is: Would Karl Rove comply?

What have the last few years been?

You know, there have been a lot of pundits who have wasted a lot of energy and computer space and ink talking about how brilliant the GOP spin machine is, when they really aren't. What they are, more than anything else, is willing to say the exact opposite of what they had been saying and act as though that's what they were saying all along. In short, they're utterly shameless.

Here's the latest example (http://thinkprogress.org/2006/10/23/bartlett-stay-the-course/). For the last six months, the GOP, from Bush down to bloggers, has been trying to bash the Democrats with the "Stay the course or cut and run" meme. Problem is, US voters aren't buying it and they haven't been for a while. Over 60% of the US public wants us out of Iraq--cut and run is the preferred strategy. So what's the GOP response to that?

George W. Bush (http://thinkprogress.org/2006/10/22/bush-stay-the-course/) on "This Week" yesterday said "We've never been stay the course," as though all those times he said "stay the course" over the last six months really meant "eat pie."

Mmmm. Pie.

Are you sure "cut-and-run" is the preferred strategy? Seems to me like most Americans don't want to just leave Iraq at the mercy of the jihadis. I suspect a phased withdrawal such as post-Tet Offensive Vietnam is the preferred strategy.

George W. Bush (http://thinkprogress.org/2006/10/22/bush-stay-the-course/) on "This Week" yesterday said "We've never been stay the course," as though all those times he said "stay the course" over the last six months really meant "eat pie."

Mmmm. Pie.

Didn't he say stay the course last week?

How much do you wanna bet the "new" policy will be described in a three word sound bite

It wasn't me/us

always good.

"What, me worry?"

Didn't he say stay the course last week?
Kerry would've been even more of a flip-flopper... allegedly.

Are you sure "cut-and-run" is the preferred strategy? Seems to me like most Americans don't want to just leave Iraq at the mercy of the jihadis. I suspect a phased withdrawal such as post-Tet Offensive Vietnam is the preferred strategy.

And I suspect Americans don't want to spend another 330 billion they don't have.

And I suspect Americans don't want to spend another 330 billion they don't have.

Suspect again.

Suspect again.

Speak for yourself. I personally think it's shameful how much money my government is spending there. Especially when the man in charge laughed off the idea that it would cost 200 billion less than two years ago.

Suspect again.

ok

if the people i talk to are any indication the preferred strategy of the american people is to pull all our people out and nuke the place. people seem very sick of having to deal with iraq and the middle east in general.

Are you sure "cut-and-run" is the preferred strategy? Seems to me like most Americans don't want to just leave Iraq at the mercy of the jihadis. I suspect a phased withdrawal such as post-Tet Offensive Vietnam is the preferred strategy.

Well, considering that the Murtha plan for phased redeployment is what's been called "cut and run" by the administration, and that that's what Limbaugh called for a few weeks ago (I started a thread on it, if you're interested), then I'd say yes, "cut and run" is the preferred strategy, since it's a phased withdrawal in the first place.

Speak for yourself. I personally think it's shameful how much money my government is spending there. Especially when the man in charge laughed off the idea that it would cost 200 billion less than two years ago.

"We are dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon." Deputy Defence Secretary , Paul Wolfowitz, MArch 2003.

The initial budgetary request for TOTAL reconstruction costs for Iraq: $2.5 Billion.

Did they get ANYTHING right about how this war was going to turn out?

"What, me worry?"


Dude he DOES look just like him...really .

"We are dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon." Deputy Defence Secretary , Paul Wolfowitz, MArch 2003.

The initial budgetary request for TOTAL reconstruction costs for Iraq: $2.5 Billion.

Did they get ANYTHING right about how this war was going to turn out?

No.

This has been another installment of easy answers to simple questions copyright Atrios 2006.

Dude he DOES look just like him...really .
I know he does:
http://www.texaschapbookpress.com/magellanslog4/bushneuman.jpg

But then, Kerry was the spitting image of Herman Munster.

Speak for yourself. I personally think it's shameful how much money my government is spending there. Especially when the man in charge laughed off the idea that it would cost 200 billion less than two years ago.
Here's an interesting snippit from Harper's index:
Ratio of the entire U.S. federal budget in 1948, adjusted for inflation, to the amount spent so far on the Iraq war: 1:1 (as of May 2006)

Her's another couple:
Percentage of U.S. soldiers in Iraq who say the war was a retaliation for Saddam Hussein's role in the 9/11 attacks: 85 (as of May 2006)


Percentage of Republicans and Democrats, respectively, in October 1994 who said they were excited to vote that year: 45, 30[Pew Research Center for the People and the Press (Washington)]

Percentage who said this in June about the 2006 midterm election: 30, 46[Pew Research Center for the People and the Press (Washington)]

Well, considering that the Murtha plan for phased redeployment is what's been called "cut and run" by the administration, and that that's what Limbaugh called for a few weeks ago (I started a thread on it, if you're interested), then I'd say yes, "cut and run" is the preferred strategy, since it's a phased withdrawal in the first place.

We should just keep it simple and call "cut and run" anything that hasn't been stamped with approval by Bush.

We should just keep it simple and call "cut and run" anything that hasn't been stamped with approval by Bush.

It would certainly fit in with the current Republican thinking to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ABC News
STEPHANOPOULOS: Is the government format to your standards right now?
* begins talking about the make up of the Iraqi government *
BUSH: The government is — look, I think the guy's been in office for about four months, Maliki. In my judgment, Maliki has got what it takes to lead a unity government.

But what you're seeing is a new form of government actually beginning to evolve after years of tyranny.

I'm patient. I'm not patient forever. And I'm not patient with dawdling. But I recognize the degree of difficulty of the task, and therefore, say to the American people, we won't cut and run.* explains you have to give the guy a chance he's new at the democracy business but he cant and wont wait forever until they get it...but just because its hard he wants the people to know HE wont cut and run *

On the other hand, we'll constantly adjust our strategy to…* here he further puts the conversation INTO CONTEXT by starting to say we will adapt our strategy to meet changing tactics and conditions

STEPHANOPOULOS: Exactly what I wanted to ask you about, because James Baker said that he's looking for something between cut and run…
* NOW Stepho puts the conversation FURTHER into the context of new strategy for winning and interupts the president to inject the phrase " cut and run " and to bring up Bakers commision ... in case your are wondering it is looking into strategy changes and recomendations on winning the war ..so NOW.. the context is cemented and the conversation is about strategy to win the war , not staying or leaving ...NOT ..POLICY..an important distinction for the mentaly impaired among us
BUSH: Cut and run and.* Bush the tactic of cut and run

STEPHANOPOULOS: … and stay the course. * Stepho injects stay the course...when taken into the whole context of the conversation can only mean CONTINUE DOING THE SAME THINGS / USING THE SAME TACTICS AND METHODS NOT Support for iraq

BUSH: Well, listen, we've never been stay the course, George. We have been — we will complete the mission, we will do our job and help achieve the goal, but we're constantly adjusting the tactics, constantly.* really JUST to cement it further Bush explains to him we were never stuck on the same tactics and methods we will do whats needed , etc.

Now that should be enough for a typical first grader who can read to understand . He would just need some background on who Baker is and what he is doing to understand the two persons involved are talking about strategy and tactics to win the war .

So really the only way you can mistake the usual stay the course ..that means "we will stay until we win we have an unwavering commitment to Iraq and the war on terror"

You have to deliberately empty your head and take a line out of a conversation and ignoring the subject matter make yourself believe it means something else entirely .....


STEPHANOPOULOS: Here's what I don't get. AND Stepho being a very smart fella further illustrates our point by NOT saying " excuse me ? you mean stay the course is not our policy...because if he did he would have been laughed at like an idiot and reminded " we are not talking policy Midget we are talking tactics ..two seperate conversations you boob .

BUSH: OK.

STEPHANOPOULOS: James Baker's a smart guy. He's got a solid group of people on that study group. But what can he come up with that you and your military commanders haven't already thought of?** again further cementing the context of the conversation about war strategy and tactics ** For the really dense ones ...

BUSH: Well, why don't we wait and see? I don't — you know, we're not in collaboration with the Baker-Hamilton committee. I think this is a good idea, to get people outside to come and take a look. * Bush wants fresh Ideas on how to win becuse the old crew suck and have gotten him to this point and stalled

That's an interesting question. I'm looking forward to seeing the answer.


*** so am I and everyone else *****


So go ahead be as dumb as dirt if that what floats your boat .



Provided as a public service by Ultraextreme sanity.

Here's the more likely scenario--whether you choose to believe it or not, Ultraextreme Sanity, is up to you. "Stay the course," which has been the Republican mantra for at least a year since Murtha came out with his phased redeployment plan, wasn't selling anymore. The poll numbers have been increasingly in the shitter and the "Dems are weak on national security" card has been shown for the bullshit it is, and the White House sees itself in deep doodoo if the Dems win one or both Houses of Congress. So they're going to try this hail mary play--deny that they ever were for "stay the course."

It ain't working. The public sees this for what it is--desperation from a group that needs fear, that needs people like you pissing themselves over the big bad Muslims, in order to stay in power. But you can only scare people with phantoms for so long, and US voters aren't convinced that the threat is as real as Bush makes it out to be.

And I suspect Americans don't want to spend another 330 billion they don't have.



I suspect American do not want to leave iraq a Jihadi playground.

I suspect Americans want the Iraqi's to be able to take care of themselves before we leave.

I suspect Americans want to WIN .


I suspect the American people want to see continued Progress and get something for the effort we are giving and are pissed it has taken so fucking long to train an Iraqi army and that the current government of Iraq seems a bit slow to improve things .

I will never expect the American people to support cut and run or leaving until and unles the job is over.
And as long as the SOLDIERS doing the fighting are convinced we are doing the right thing and the threat of radical Islamic terrorist exist I expect the government to succeed in Iraq and continue to take the fight to the terrorist and not wait in guam for the bomb to go off or plane to crash or train to explode . Just like the rest of the American people .

I suspect American do not want to leave iraq a Jihadi playground.

I suspect Americans want the Iraqi's to be able to take care of themselves before we leave.

I suspect Americans want to WIN .


I suspect the American people want to see continued Progress and get something for the effort we are giving and are pissed it has taken so fucking long to train an Iraqi army and that the current government of Iraq seems a bit slow to improve things .

I will never expect the American people to support cut and run or leaving until and unles the job is over.
And as long as the SOLDIERS doing the fighting are convinced we are doing the right thing and the threat of radical Islamic terrorist exist I expect the government to succeed in Iraq and continue to take the fight to the terrorist and not wait in guam for the bomb to go off or plane to crash or train to explode . Just like the rest of the American people .
Polls say you're in the minority on most of that--and not like a 52-48 minority either. More like a 65-35.

Here's the more likely scenario--whether you choose to believe it or not, Ultraextreme Sanity, is up to you. "Stay the course," which has been the Republican mantra for at least a year since Murtha came out with his phased redeployment plan, wasn't selling anymore. The poll numbers have been increasingly in the shitter and the "Dems are weak on national security" card has been shown for the bullshit it is, and the White House sees itself in deep doodoo if the Dems win one or both Houses of Congress. So they're going to try this hail mary play--deny that they ever were for "stay the course."

It ain't working. The public sees this for what it is--desperation from a group that needs fear, that needs people like you pissing themselves over the big bad Muslims, in order to stay in power. But you can only scare people with phantoms for so long, and US voters aren't convinced that the threat is as real as Bush makes it out to be.


I doubt it . But I will give you this they waited an awfull long fucking time to " change strategy " .

The policy of " stay the course " means to stick with and win in Iraq and continue to support democracy in the region . Something he said way before murtha lost his marbles.

Or do you need the server to be brought to its knees with the examples of this being the definition of the " PHRASE " that the president has used countless times before you further twist into a pretzel trying to twist the words around to mean something they do not ?

Bush has two years to solve Iraq ...no matter what happens in november..

So stay the course it will be ..with some changes in course to avoid ice bergs .

If Iraq is NOT solved ...we are beyond fucked...and it wont really matter who gets the blame. We are way beyond blame ...blame is a luxury for when the games over .

I suspect American do not want to leave iraq a Jihadi playground.

I suspect Americans want the Iraqi's to be able to take care of themselves before we leave.

I suspect Americans want to WIN .


I suspect the American people want to see continued Progress and get something for the effort we are giving and are pissed it has taken so fucking long to train an Iraqi army and that the current government of Iraq seems a bit slow to improve things .

I will never expect the American people to support cut and run or leaving until and unles the job is over.
And as long as the SOLDIERS doing the fighting are convinced we are doing the right thing and the threat of radical Islamic terrorist exist I expect the government to succeed in Iraq and continue to take the fight to the terrorist and not wait in guam for the bomb to go off or plane to crash or train to explode . Just like the rest of the American people .
Yes, most Americans (like most humans in general) like to win instead of losing. Most Americans would prefer that Iraqis be able to run a safe, just, happy nation by themselves. Most Americans aren't fond of the notion of a jihadist state festering with anti-American sentiments. Those are all true.

However, the majority of the American people already want to leave Iraq. The majority of Americans don't think what we're doing is working. The majority of Americans may WANT to win, but they know that wanting to win doesn't mean you're going to win.

What we want, in the ideal, is not always possible in reality. Most Americans have already put this together. Check the polls.

Polls say you're in the minority on most of that--and not like a 52-48 minority either. More like a 65-35.



Polls said Kerry would be President too and about thirty million other examples where they were wrong....

What the POLLS reflect is a dissatisfaction with the Iraqi war and the way it is being waged .
The polls do not support the US leaving Iraq with the job not done .

Show me a poll that askes the direct question " DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD JUST LEAVE IRAQ BEFORE WE COMPLETE THE MISSION " .

You would have to have cement for a brain at this point to think the effort in Iraq is going as planned ...( I use the term plan with some wonder )...
So if you asking the average American if he is satified with the effort in Iraq this pissed off American is going to say HELL FUCKING NO ! Why is it taking so fucking long ? You took over the country in a month ! WTF are you doing and when is it over ?

It seems the administration has FINALLY gotten this point and is now talking about "bench" marks and other ways to show progress and changing strategy to meet new tactics.

At the same time our own news station CNN in the US is showing terrorist snuff films and propaganda to the American people .

Our own news agengecy showing the terrorist Propaganda...WTF is up with that ?

Bush has two years to fix it and it had better not take that long .


Since FUCKING when do you fight a war by polls ?

We should all be speaking German and be part of the third Reich or we should all be living under communist Stalinist rule if wars were ever run by polls .

snip
Provided as a desperate attempt to cling to my beliefs that Bush & co haven't royally screwed up and I'm left with either facing up to the fact that I've been supporting clueless douchebags for the last 5 years or go the cog diss route of ignoring reality and just continue on trying to shout everyone else down, by Ultraextreme sanity.
fixed.

Hamster you need to be fixed ...now your welcome to change my " quote ' back to the way it was or we can deal with this in others ways .

I suspect American do not want to leave iraq a Jihadi playground.

I suspect Americans want the Iraqi's to be able to take care of themselves before we leave.

I suspect Americans want to WIN .

I suspect the American people want to see continued Progress and get something for the effort we are giving and are pissed it has taken so fucking long to train an Iraqi army and that the current government of Iraq seems a bit slow to improve things .
It is so messed up over there that Iraqis are reluctant to join and are reluctant to go into certain areas.

The majority of Iraqis want the US to leave.

I will never expect the American people to support cut and run or leaving until and unles the job is over.
US troops presence exacerbates the problem. No US troops means that the terrorists lose their target, and reason to fight.

"Do you think the U.S. should keep military troops in Iraq until the situation has stabilized, or do you think the U.S. should bring its troops home as soon as possible (http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm)?"

Keep Troops Bring Home Unsure

9/21 - 10/4/06 47 47 6

Hmmmm. 50/50 :eek:

Check out the rest of the poll results. Very interesting indeed.

And as long as the SOLDIERS doing the fighting are convinced we are doing the right thing and the threat of radical Islamic terrorist exist I expect the government to succeed in Iraq and continue to take the fight to the terrorist and not wait in guam for the bomb to go off or plane to crash or train to explode . Just like the rest of the American people .
The majority of US troops want to come home within 6 months to a year.

Poll: Troops signal desire to come home (http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0301/dailyUpdate.html)

Maybe Bush and some of the pro Iraq war people here on NS can fill in? Maybe those people can "stay the course"?

Maybe Bush and some of the pro Iraq war people here on NS can fill in? Maybe those people can "stay the course"?
Eminem said it a couple of years ago.Strap him with an AK-47
Let him go
Fight his own battles
Let him impress Daddy that way.
Of course, it'll never happen. He had his chance to face the realities of war and booked out on it. I don't blame him--I never served either--but then again, I don't try to be Mister American Ass Kicker either. I don't pretend to be something I'm not. Bush does, and we all pay the price for it.

Eminem said it a couple of years ago.
Of course, it'll never happen. He had his chance to face the realities of war and booked out on it. I don't blame him--I never served either--but then again, I don't try to be Mister American Ass Kicker either. I don't pretend to be something I'm not. Bush does, and we all pay the price for it.

Yeah, truly. What did George McGovern say all those many years ago? I'm sick and tired of old men thinking up wars for young men (and now women) to die in. Let Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld put on the body armor and go save Iraq for democracy. They wouldn't last a week.

You know, there have been a lot of pundits who have wasted a lot of energy and computer space and ink talking about how brilliant the GOP spin machine is, when they really aren't. What they are, more than anything else, is willing to say the exact opposite of what they had been saying and act as though that's what they were saying all along. In short, they're utterly shameless.

Here's the latest example (http://thinkprogress.org/2006/10/23/bartlett-stay-the-course/). For the last six months, the GOP, from Bush down to bloggers, has been trying to bash the Democrats with the "Stay the course or cut and run" meme. Problem is, US voters aren't buying it and they haven't been for a while. Over 60% of the US public wants us out of Iraq--cut and run is the preferred strategy. So what's the GOP response to that?

George W. Bush (http://thinkprogress.org/2006/10/22/bush-stay-the-course/) on "This Week" yesterday said "We've never been stay the course," as though all those times he said "stay the course" over the last six months really meant "eat pie."

Mmmm. Pie.

They do this sort of thing all the time.

Remember the "nuclear option?" Bill Frist coined the term to make the Republicans sound manly and unbeatable. When it became clear that it only made them seem like dickholes he said "that's the Democrats term for making it sound bad. We call it the 'Constitutional Option."

Republican politicians aren't brilliant. Republican voters are retards.

It is so messed up over there that Iraqis are reluctant to join and are reluctant to go into certain areas.

The majority of Iraqis want the US to leave.


US troops presence exacerbates the problem. No US troops means that the terrorists lose their target, and reason to fight.

"Do you think the U.S. should keep military troops in Iraq until the situation has stabilized, or do you think the U.S. should bring its troops home as soon as possible (http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm)?"

Keep Troops Bring Home Unsure

9/21 - 10/4/06 47 47 6

Hmmmm. 50/50 :eek:

Check out the rest of the poll results. Very interesting indeed.


The majority of US troops want to come home within 6 months to a year.

Poll: Troops signal desire to come home (http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0301/dailyUpdate.html)

Maybe Bush and some of the pro Iraq war people here on NS can fill in? Maybe those people can "stay the course"?


Thanks for the web site . Its interesting and its really proves you should never fight a war by polls . And proves without a doubt that showing resolve and commitment is the only way to ever win at anything.....unless you need to take a poll on that ? just so you can make up your mind .

BTW The majority of US troops want to come home tommorow...provided the job is done .


that the poll of 944 US troops in Iraq,The poll was funded by Le Moyne College's Center for Peace and Global Studies, which received money for the project from an anonymous antiwar activist. John Zogby, the president of Zogby International, said the donor had no imput on the content of the poll, or how it was conducted. Of those surveyed, 75 percent had served multiple tours in Iraq, 63 percent were under 30 years of age, and 25 percent were women.

944 out of 150,000 ......

Here is where US says that a majority opinion is important in policy decision:
I suspect American do not want to leave iraq a Jihadi playground.

I suspect Americans want the Iraqi's to be able to take care of themselves before we leave.

I suspect Americans want to WIN .


I suspect the American people want to see continued Progress and get something for the effort we are giving and are pissed it has taken so fucking long to train an Iraqi army and that the current government of Iraq seems a bit slow to improve things .

And here is where US say that a majority opinion is not important in policy decision:
Thanks for the web site . Its interesting and its really proves you should never fight a war by polls . And proves without a doubt that showing resolve and commitment is the only way to ever win at anything.....unless you need to take a poll on that ? just so you can make up your mind .

And here is where I say that US is contradictiong himself. :p

So the Republicans are calling for what the Democrats have always been calling for - which, in any other scenario would put us on the same side of the fence - but we're so freaked out by this that now we are arguing over semantics and whether Republicans have always been saying what the Democrats had been saying... is that what we're saying?



Goo goo gajoob.

Here's a snippet of a longer article (http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/us-says-iraqis-may-control-security/20061024081609990013?ncid=NWS00010000000001):

U.S. officials said Tuesday Iraqi leaders have agreed to develop a timeline by the end of the year for progress in stabilizing Iraq, and Iraqi forces should be able to take full control of security in the country in the next 12 to 18 months with "some level" of American support.

Even as October marked the deadliest month for U.S. forces in Iraq this year, with 89 American servicemembers killed in combat so far, the top U.S. commander in Iraq said he felt the United States should continue to focus on drawing down American forces in the country.

Regardless, Gen. George Casey said he would not hesitate to ask for more troops if he felt they were necessary.

He appeared at a rare joint news conference with U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad in the heavily fortified Green Zone in Baghdad. A power failure in the Green Zone briefly cut off the broadcast of the remarks.

I especially like the power failure cutting off the broadcast.

In today's news, the White House has officially dropped "stay the course" in order to avoid giving the "wrong impression".

Bush Abandons Phrase 'Stay the Course' on Iraq (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/24/world/middleeast/24policy.html)

Here is where US says that a majority opinion is important in policy decision:


And here is where US say that a majority opinion is not important in policy decision:


And here is where I say that US is contradictiong himself. :p



And here is where I say ask the US military person of your choice what he thinks all by yourself instead of insulating yourself in this nice atmosphere of left wing and mostly liberal opinion .

In fact I'll give you a start http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=3&nav=messages&webtag=ab-usmilitary&tid=73762

http://military-forums.net/eve

Ask them what they think...or just read ...

I dont contradict myself at all...I live in the real world and get my opinions from people not polls . And when I read a poll I consider the source and the context and the sampling and who is taking it.

Then I compare it the the real world comments from actual human contact and forums other than a Conservative or liberal slanted forum...in fact when I want to know what the liberal thinking is I often just come here.. I can turn on the radio and listen to any number of conservatives from idiots to decent to insane fanatics .

You must not have a clue about the point I made on the polls that I read from that site and how they changed and to what extremes and how it would affect real world performance if everyone thought polls are meaningfull and should be used as a tool for something other than entertainment or to get a sense of how people MAY be thinking at some particular point in time .

I can see a general any day now taking a poll before he orders his troops to blow up a bunker.

You vote for Kerry the pancake if you want to be lead by polls .

Leadership pays no attention to polls . A leader gets the job done once he commits himself .


now go back and read all the polls and really look at the numbers and see if you can geet the point .

What do you do when the polls you read do not reflect the real world ?

Go with the polls or what you see feel and hear ?

Ask again how the polls could say kerry would win and Bush ended up with 52 percent of the vote .

Eminem said it a couple of years ago.
Of course, it'll never happen. He had his chance to face the realities of war and booked out on it. I don't blame him--I never served either--but then again, I don't try to be Mister American Ass Kicker either. I don't pretend to be something I'm not. Bush does, and we all pay the price for it.
Bolding mine. Apparently and sadly true.

You can't just dismiss the validity of a poll because it contradicts your position, not unless you want to look like an uninformed douche that is. But if you're okay with that....

And here is where I say ask the US military person of your choice what he thinks all by yourself instead of insulating yourself in this nice atmosphere of left wing and mostly liberal opinion .

In fact I'll give you a start http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=3&nav=messages&webtag=ab-usmilitary&tid=73762

http://military-forums.net/eve

Ask them what they think...or just read ...

I dont contradict myself at all...I live in the real world and get my opinions from people not polls . And when I read a poll I consider the source and the context and the sampling and who is taking it.

Then I compare it the the real world comments from actual human contact and forums other than a Conservative or liberal slanted forum...in fact when I want to know what the liberal thinking is I often just come here.. I can turn on the radio and listen to any number of conservatives from idiots to decent to insane fanatics .

You must not have a clue about the point I made on the polls that I read from that site and how they changed and to what extremes and how it would affect real world performance if everyone thought polls are meaningfull and should be used as a tool for something other than entertainment or to get a sense of how people MAY be thinking at some particular point in time .

I can see a general any day now taking a poll before he orders his troops to blow up a bunker.

You vote for Kerry the pancake if you want to be lead by polls .

Leadership pays no attention to polls . A leader gets the job done once he commits himself .


now go back and read all the polls and really look at the numbers and see if you can geet the point .

What do you do when the polls you read do not reflect the real world ?

Go with the polls or what you see feel and hear ?

Ask again how the polls could say kerry would win and Bush ended up with 52 percent of the vote .
see if I care about your polls. You posted that the majority of americans thought "this" so we should do "this", then later, you said that the majority doesn't matter.

In clear: you like polls only when they back your views. When they contradict your views, they are not to be trusted.

Take a good long look in the mirror and come back to us. Nobody likes a flip-flopper.

You can't just dismiss the validity of a poll because it contradicts your position, not unless you want to look like an uninformed douche that is. But if you're okay with that....

He's a Bushevik; it's pretty much a standard option with these folks.

see if I care about your polls. You posted that the majority of americans thought "this" so we should do "this", then later, you said that the majority doesn't matter.

In clear: you like polls only when they back your views. When they contradict your views, they are not to be trusted.

Take a good long look in the mirror and come back to us. Nobody likes a flip-flopper.

Bushevik Projectionism at its finest and usual. They called Kerry a flip-flopper and look what happened. They call Democrats child molesters and look what happened. They say Democrats want to cut and run and look what's happening. They call the left intolerant and look at them.

Bushevik Projectionism at its finest and usual. They called Kerry a flip-flopper and look what happened. They call Democrats child molesters and look what happened. They say Democrats want to cut and run and look what's happening. They call the left intolerant and look at them.


If your an American and want to know what the troops think ...go ask them ..

Posted 13 July 2006 20:42 The good general would be very much disappointed by the American public lack of support to the war on terror. Less than 2,000 Americans died during the attack in Pearl Harbour yet the US at that time mobilize almost 16 million troops. More tha 400,000 Americans sacrifice their lives to win against Japan. Todays terrorist killed more tha 3,000 Americans at the World Trade Center yet sad to say today, this new American generation shamefully very apathetic in winning this war on terror!

But prepare yourself to be overwhelmed by this setiment.

Go ahead take yourself out of this comfy little cocoon and venture into the real world where you dont have The times and your other support groups and dont all stand around congratulating each other on how right you are.:D

It must be nice to be able to create your own little world where everyone agrees with each other and slaps each other on the back..:D

But fortunately there is life outside this little cocoon...you should vissit it and broaden your perspective.

In fact take a poll !


BTW when do I cite polls as an example to back up my arguments unless they are ones that count ...like elections ?

Please point it out to me .

You made the statement ...show me .

Okay. Sick to the eyeballs of the comparison to Pearl Harbor. It doesn't work, and is basically a shameful appeal to emotion with no foundation in reality.

Japan, A NATION with an organized MILITARY and political STRUCTURE attacked the US in 1941. In 2001, SOME GUYS with disjunct sleeper-cell RELIGIOUS motivation and tactics attacked the US. If you honestly cannot see the difference, not to mention the reap-what-we've-sown foreign policy blowback that caused the latter attack, then you're beyond disingenuous and dangerously close to blind. To squeeze political juice from the tear-soaked handkerchiefs of mourning soldier families and friends and disguise it as patriotism is disgusting...and consequently not very surprising when you consider the source.

If your an American and want to know what the troops think ...go ask them ..



But prepare yourself to be overwhelmed by this setiment.

Go ahead take yourself out of this comfy little cocoon and venture into the real world where you dont have The times and your other support groups and dont all stand around congratulating each other on how right you are.:D

It must be nice to be able to create your own little world where everyone agrees with each other and slaps each other on the back..:D

But fortunately there is life outside this little cocoon...you should vissit it and broaden your perspective.

In fact take a poll !


BTW when do I cite polls as an example to back up my arguments unless they are ones that count ...like elections ?

Please point it out to me .

You made the statement ...show me .You're the one in the cocoon--you go find people who share your point of view and discount all others. You act as though other points of view are absurd and impossible, and then you accuse us of being closed off. I have no doubt there are soldiers who are in favor of staying in Iraq--we get to see them paraded around everyday by apologists for the war. It's the other side that gets no play, and according to that poll, is the dominant sentiment.

By the way, Ultra, I'll ask my friend of 28 years, Captain Steven R. Hobbs US Army, ret. He made his way up from private to captain in ten years in the Infantry. He served in Kosovo and Iraq. He came back less than two years ago and is running for state senator in Washington as a Democrat. He agrees with the disgruntled generals. So take your "ask any" crap and stuff it.

You're the one in the cocoon--you go find people who share your point of view and discount all others. You act as though other points of view are absurd and impossible, and then you accuse us of being closed off. I have no doubt there are soldiers who are in favor of staying in Iraq--we get to see them paraded around everyday by apologists for the war. It's the other side that gets no play, and according to that poll, is the dominant sentiment.

Nazz if I didn't give a shit what others think I wouldn't subject myself to this forum .

I am obviously not in a cocoon far from it...BTW how many democrats ...registered voters ..did YOU speak to this week and ask if they would be voting and would they support your candidate ?

What did they tell you ..:D

After the election I'll tell you what they are saying in Pennsylvania ..Philadelphia specifically.

Gotta go back to my cocoon...

Okay. Sick to the eyeballs of the comparison to Pearl Harbor. It doesn't work, and is basically a shameful appeal to emotion with no foundation in reality.

Japan, A NATION with an organized MILITARY and political STRUCTURE attacked the US in 1941. In 2001, SOME GUYS with disjunct sleeper-cell RELIGIOUS motivation and tactics attacked the US. If you honestly cannot see the difference, not to mention the reap-what-we've-sown foreign policy blowback that caused the latter attack, then you're beyond disingenuous and dangerously close to blind. To squeeze political juice from the tear-soaked handkerchiefs of mourning soldier families and friends and disguise it as patriotism is disgusting...and consequently not very surprising when you consider the source.


So discount the opinion of an American soldier in Iraq because thats the source...in fact dont go to the web site and have a discourse with the soldiers fighting the war...go look up a poll . Dont go to the web site and listen to what soldiers have to say...they dont count because they think differently than you do .
Do you fear going to a website forum for soldiers and their familly and supporters ? Are you that afraid of reality ?

Its much more comforting.:D

By the way, Ultra, I'll ask my friend of 28 years, Captain Steven R. Hobbs US Army, ret. He made his way up from private to captain in ten years in the Infantry. He served in Kosovo and Iraq. He came back less than two years ago and is running for state senator in Washington as a Democrat. He agrees with the disgruntled generals. So take your "ask any" crap and stuff it.

I'll ask My nephew who is serving his second tour as a .50 gunner running convoy duty he volunteered for , Joseph Andreachio JR. what he thinks and LT. Colonel Donald Perrotta USAF intelligence My brother in Law what they think and you can stuff it back . Unless of course you think HIS opinion and the disgruntled generals outweigh the opinions of the other non gruntled generals and Actual soldiers on the ground getting shot at .

Any questions ?


BTW http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=504195&page=7 if you look Intangelon I am NOT that far off what the " disgruntled" generals have to say...as I am a bit disgruntled myself about the situation and how its been poorly handled from the beginning. And since I have an almost 17 year old son dead set on the Marines I am VERY interested in getting it RIGHT. But leaving without accomplishing the mission is NOT IMO right .

I'll ask My nephew who is serving his second tour as a .50 gunner running convoy duty he volunteered for , Joseph Andreachio JR. what he thinks and LT. Colonel Donald Perrotta USAF intelligence My brother in Law what they think and you can stuff it back .

Any questions ?

Yeah, I got a few.

- What do you plan to tell your descendants when they ask where you were and what you did when the President stripped away everybody's rights in order to whitewash all of his lies and wrongdoing?

- How will you explain that it's in the interests of your descendants that President Bush spent all the money they'll ever make - and all the money their children's children make, in eight short years - on bringing Democracy to people who never asked for it, and who hate you to boot?

And my last question for you is,

- How long are you willing to fiddle while Rome burns all around you?

So the Republicans are calling for what the Democrats have always been calling for - which, in any other scenario would put us on the same side of the fence - but we're so freaked out by this that now we are arguing over semantics and whether Republicans have always been saying what the Democrats had been saying... is that what we're saying?



Goo goo gajoob.

Sadly conservatism is a childish and immature philosphy these days. Even when reality gets it in a choke hold and gives it a swirly it will hand over its lunch money, but claim that it was gonig to do so all along.

I was watching this documentary about Evangelical Environmentalists a while back. I thought "great, radical right-wingers are finally coming around." It focused on the polution that results from poorly regulated coal mining in Virginia.

I was horribly disappointed when I heard them talking. If they had listened to liberals 30 years ago they'd have seen this shit coming. But they didn't. Now their drinking water is undrinkable. Their air is full of coal dust. Asthma rates as well as a series of mystery ailments are soaring. This is leading them to finally start protecting the environment.

But still, they insist that liberals were wrong to do so 30 years ago. "Liberals care about the Earth. We care about people." Those arrogant sons of bitches! Even when reality threatens to kill them if they don't admit they were wrong, they still have to argue that the people who were right were wrong for being right so early. I started watching the documentary hopeful that at least one enclave of the Conservative movement was finally becoming enlightened, but instead they're just scrambling to save whatever piece of their toxic philosophy they can, like a smoker who just had a lung transplant switching to low-tar cigarettes.

So discount the opinion of an American soldier in Iraq because thats the source...in fact dont go to the web site and have a discourse with the soldiers fighting the war...go look up a poll . Dont go to the web site and listen to what soldiers have to say...they dont count because they think differently than you do .
Do you fear going to a website forum for soldiers and their familly and supporters ? Are you that afraid of reality ?

Its much more comforting.:D

The thing is, there have been plenty of troop blogs that have been pulled down because the serviceman in question was making it sound like serving in Iraq was a bad thing.

Pointing to one website that's self selecting for people who think it's a good thing is not reality. Reality is all the stuff that the Administration won't leave on the internet.

Yeah, I got a few.

- What do you plan to tell your descendants when they ask where you were and what you did when the President stripped away everybody's rights in order to whitewash all of his lies and wrongdoing?

- How will you explain that it's in the interests of your descendants that President Bush spent all the money they'll ever make - and all the money their children's children make, in eight short years - on bringing Democracy to people who never asked for it, and who hate you to boot?

And my last question for you is,

- How long are you willing to fiddle while Rome burns all around you?

Well Dobbs if it were ever to happen I would tell them the story as it happened in reality .

Sadly conservatism is a childish and immature philosphy these days. Even when reality gets it in a choke hold and gives it a swirly it will hand over its lunch money, but claim that it was gonig to do so all along.

I was watching this documentary about Evangelical Environmentalists a while back. I thought "great, radical right-wingers are finally coming around." It focused on the polution that results from poorly regulated coal mining in Virginia.

I was horribly disappointed when I heard them talking. If they had listened to liberals 30 years ago they'd have seen this shit coming. But they didn't. Now their drinking water is undrinkable. Their air is full of coal dust. Asthma rates as well as a series of mystery ailments are soaring. This is leading them to finally start protecting the environment.

But still, they insist that liberals were wrong to do so 30 years ago. "Liberals care about the Earth. We care about people." Those arrogant sons of bitches! Even when reality threatens to kill them if they don't admit they were wrong, they still have to argue that the people who were right were wrong for being right so early. I started watching the documentary hopeful that at least one enclave of the Conservative movement was finally becoming enlightened, but instead they're just scrambling to save whatever piece of their toxic philosophy they can, like a smoker who just had a lung transplant switching to low-tar cigarettes.

It's amazing, isn't it? Did they think the mine owners were making donations to the Democratic Party all these years? And out in Kansas and Nebraska and the Dakotas, do they think the CEO of ConAgra, which just drove them off the family farm, is a big John Kerry fan? But Lord! the GOP keeps them gay Islamofascist suicide bombers from forcing the local pastor to marry them before they stroll downtown (past all the boarded up stores) to blow themselves up on the steps of City Hall.

The thing is, there have been plenty of troop blogs that have been pulled down because the serviceman in question was making it sound like serving in Iraq was a bad thing.

Pointing to one website that's self selecting for people who think it's a good thing is not reality. Reality is all the stuff that the Administration won't leave on the internet.

Count how many web sites I put up. Do you want more ?


How many ?

Well Dobbs if it were ever to happen I would tell them the story as it happened in reality .

So, you'll just gloss over it all and not answer the questions they ask of you. How patriotic.

It's amazing, isn't it? Did they think the mine owners were making donations to the Democratic Party all these years? And out in Kansas and Nebraska and the Dakotas, do they think the CEO of ConAgra, which just drove them off the family farm, is a big John Kerry fan? But Lord! the GOP keeps them gay Islamofascist suicide bombers from forcing the local pastor to marry them before they stroll downtown (past all the boarded up stores) to blow themselves up on the steps of City Hall.

The campaign rhetoric is a sad take on the UPS ads: What can Brown (people) do to you?

Yeah, I got a few.

- What do you plan to tell your descendants when they ask where you were and what you did when the President stripped away everybody's rights in order to whitewash all of his lies and wrongdoing?

- How will you explain that it's in the interests of your descendants that President Bush spent all the money they'll ever make - and all the money their children's children make, in eight short years - on bringing Democracy to people who never asked for it, and who hate you to boot?

And my last question for you is,

- How long are you willing to fiddle while Rome burns all around you?

Good on you Dobbs, Stick to your guns and don't let a Freeper wear you out . Give it time and Der Shrubben Fuhrer will be in the dock at the Hague.

I've been reading through this site, http://military-forums.net/eve and frankly I don't see all that much difference in opinion with the stuff I see on NS daily. It has probably the reverse conservative to liberal ratio but really I see people talking about the same issues with a lot of the same arguments. I don't see this one-mind-all-for-Iraq war that is being implied. Just for instance:

ssa2204 "Well I have to greatly disagree with this thread as I strongly believe that going to Iraq has been a huge mistake

1.) The war took valuable needed resources away from the real fight, Afghanistan which after 5 years is still unstable. The Afghan central government has virtually no control outside of Kabul. In the past few months we have seen a resurgent Taliban, resurgent because they were never trully defeated in the first place.

2.) Special forces desperetely needed to hunt down Al Queda in Afghanistan were pulled in 2003 to be used in Iraq.

3.) Iraq provided Al Queda with the absolute best propoganda they could ever have imagined. For years Bin Laden had been claiming that the US really wants to invade an oil rich Arab country. So, what did we do....

4.) The unilateral approach has had a serious negative impact on US relations around the world. World opinian of the US has dropped like never before, with the result being that more and more nations are less willing to work with the US on numerous international issues.

5.) The effect of being bogged down in Iraq has given Iran and North Korea the oppurtunity they would not otherwise have had to basically be as beligerent as possible. Mind you these are two nations that have WMD programs

6. Due to the complete incompetence of the civilian leadership right after the end of the ground war in securing Iraq, we now have a complete training ground and recruitment center for thousands of new Jihadis, many of whom would not have been involved if not for the invasion. As a result of not securing the ammo depots shortly after we now have an insurgency with a vast stockpile of weapons for which they can use against us.

7.) By publicly using discredited information to build a case that Iraq had WMDs, the US credibility has dropped to zero. Even more so, large populations of people now have very little faith and trust in the US. It does not matter what we know or think, but the perception of US intentions in Iraq have had a devastating impact on our security

8.) Ironically Saddam was just as much, if not more of an enemy to Al Queda than the US. What really burns these people are secular Arab leaders. To them they are even worse than a moderate democratically elected leader. One reason why even Hafaz Assad, as beligerent as he is, has helped in combating Al Queda. For Assad typifies what Al Queda believes is the worst to happen to Islam=Secularist leaders.

Was Saddam bad? Sure, but so is the regime in Syria, Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Myanmar, Pakistan, etc..I have nothing against taking out Saddam per se, but the manner in which it was done and the timing could not have been any worse for the US. Secure and stabilise Afghanistan first, then go into Iraq with a real plan. What seems so impervious to many is that the sectarian warfare going on should have been expected. That is why we should have armed and covertly support an uprising from within, and accepted the fact that Iraq may very well fall into 3 pieces. Instead we are dealing with the ghost of colonialism, and even through we were not the imperialists who made up the idiotic map of the Middle East, we are now the ones paying for it."
http://military-forums.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9871064/m/3481071141

rppearso "I believe it will be like vietnam when Nixson took office he stopped the war and pulled out. Iraq is a mirror image of vietnam, with maybe some small differences but the big picture is the same. I am no longer in the guard now by the way.

Blood is the catalyst required to build a nation. No nation has ever risen from anything less.

Sure thats true, but it can be iraq's blood not ours, we had our civil war and our revolutionary war and we did not have whole armys supporting our cause. We had help but not to the extent that we are in iraq.

If the american people dont support it anymore, it doesnt matter how noble it is, it should not be happening but thats what elections are for"
http://military-forums.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9871064/m/866102707

I could find more but the cutting and pasting is annoying. I just don't see how this reinforces your argument unless it was expected that nobody would actually go to these sites and read through them.

- How long are you willing to fiddle while Rome burns all around you?

at least for one more chorus

It has probably the reverse conservative to liberal ratio but really I see people talking about the same issues with a lot of the same arguments. I don't see this one-mind-all-for-Iraq war that is being implied. Just for instance: *Snip*


There is no one mind on the war in iraq nor one mindset . The Pro " stay until we are done argument is in a reverse proportion to this site "

The arguments about the war are genuine and expected in a Democracy and healthy to discuss .

The difference is instead of complaining they are arguing on the best way to WIN.


But read on I give you credit .

There is no one mind on the war in iraq nor one mindset . The Pro " stay until we are done argument is in a reverse proportion to this site "

The arguments about the war are genuine and expected in a Democracy and healthy to discuss .

The difference is instead of complaining they are arguing on the best way to WIN.


But read on I give you credit .

I can't think of anything else for soldiers to discuss in terms of waging war but how to win. They really have no other options that aren't illegal or harmful to their fellow soldiers. I'm just saying that a lot of soldiers have the same attitude as voiced by liberals and democrats and your link to that site could be made to prove that as well.

Well Dobbs if it were ever to happen I would tell them the story as it happened in reality .
Well, that'd certainly make a huge departure from your usual ramblings.

So discount the opinion of an American soldier in Iraq because thats the source...in fact dont go to the web site and have a discourse with the soldiers fighting the war...go look up a poll . Dont go to the web site and listen to what soldiers have to say...they dont count because they think differently than you do .
Do you fear going to a website forum for soldiers and their familly and supporters ? Are you that afraid of reality ?

Its much more comforting.:D
Well if we're just going to go on the opinions of soldiers who have fought in Iraq, maybe you'd like to explain why, out of the 11 ex-servicemen who served in Iraq over the last 5 years and are standing for congress only ONE of them is running under the GOP banner. The rest are running as Dems.
Care to explain how that fits into your cosy little world view that soldiers are supportive of the Bush Admin and it's handling of the war?

Or will you just dismiss them out of hand, like you do with everything else that attempts to drag you into the thing the rest of us call reality?

A day after George FF Bush declares that it was never "stay the course", this General has some great news!!

Iraq may control security in a year, general says (http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/TopStories/ContentPosting.aspx?newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20061024%2firaq_general_061024&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V2&showbyline=True)

Iraqi forces should be able to take command of security in the country within the next 12 to 18 months, the U.S. military commander in Iraq said Tuesday.
How magical is that? And timely too? :p

Reagan was the Gipper and now we have Bush the Flipper

I can't think of anything else for soldiers to discuss in terms of waging war but how to win. They really have no other options that aren't illegal or harmful to their fellow soldiers. I'm just saying that a lot of soldiers have the same attitude as voiced by liberals and democrats and your link to that site could be made to prove that as well.


People tend to forget those " soldiers are us . We are the soldiers , meaning they are no different from us except they are commited to a life and death struggle. So the fact that they think like us shouldnt be a suprise... Some soldiers may have a liberal attitude towards almost everything but war.

Like you said a liberal attitude during a war will just get you shot :D But sure just like most of us they have different opinions on everything from abortion to gun controll to how bad the boss is running the current war they happen to be fighting in .

But they want to stay and win . it cant be much more plain than that .
they are not being beaten . They have never lost one battle in Iraq to anyone . EVER...The only ones being beaten are here in the US .

Well if we're just going to go on the opinions of soldiers who have fought in Iraq, maybe you'd like to explain why, out of the 11 ex-servicemen who served in Iraq over the last 5 years and are standing for congress only ONE of them is running under the GOP banner. The rest are running as Dems.
Care to explain how that fits into your cosy little world view that soldiers are supportive of the Bush Admin and it's handling of the war?

Or will you just dismiss them out of hand, like you do with everything else that attempts to drag you into the thing the rest of us call reality?


Maybe the same reason I am a registered Democrat ? Whats your point ?
The Democrats went and tried deliberately to recruit as many former soldiers to bolster their "pussy " image ? You have to ask them ...maybe they were always Democrats. I sure as hell wont speak for their reasons ...only my own .

Maybe the sight of a bunch of Republican jerkoffs all standing around and Salivating and drooling like maniac druids over terry Shiavo's bed and trying to pass laws to remove even more of her dignity in congress and making more intrusions into someones privacy than is decent , finally..... like it did to me..... make them take their republican voters registration card and burn it . Or maybe it was the sight of an American veterans house being taken away from him because of the fucking eminent domain law that finally made them snap. maybe it was a combination of a whole bunch of things .
The way the idiots are fighting the war included . I hope they are good men and make good candidates and the democrats dont toss them aside like they did lieberman . They may actually be the hope for the future of the Democratic party . You never KNOW .

Maybe the same reason I am a registered Democrat ?
Is this the beginning of Watergate the Sequel? :p

they are not being beaten . They have never lost one battle in Iraq to anyone . EVER...The only ones being beaten are here in the US .

Uh huh. So all those dead bodies that come back draped in flags, which of course no images can be taken of because it's "ebil propoganda" are really just fakes? No bigger way to lose a battle than to get your personal self ventilated.

Uh huh. So all those dead bodies that come back draped in flags, which of course no images can be taken of because it's "ebil propoganda" are really just fakes? No bigger way to lose a battle than to get your personal self ventilated.


Do you even have a clue what a battle is ? From what you just posted I doubt it .

Casualties are a fact of war.

The final casualty figures for the 2d Marine Division in Operation Galvanic were 997 Marines and 30 sailors (organic medical personnel) dead; 88 Marines missing and presumed dead; and 2,233 Marines and 59 sailors wounded. Total casualties: 3,407. The Guadalcanal campaign had cost a comparable amount of Marine casualties over six months; Tarawa's losses occurred in a period of 76 hours. Moreover, the ratio of killed to wounded at Tarawa was significantly high, reflecting the savagery of the fighting. The overall proportion of casualties among those Marines engaged in the assault was about 19 percent, a steep but "acceptable" price. But some battalions suffered much higher losses. The 2d Amphibian Tractor Battalion lost over half the command. The battalion also lost all but 35 of the 125 LVT's employed at Betio.


Who won that battle ?

Is this the beginning of Watergate the Sequel? :p


Your Canadian and a good person unused to the sewers of Pennsylvania politics and heaven forbid Philadelphia... so you have a soul and cant understand politics in the city .:D

Santorum is a senator ...a very evil senator ....to defeat him you must make a sacrifice at the political altar of a worthy measure..and You must work to get a democrat elected in his place because the primary was a joke.
Not to mention to work on a Democrats campaign they want you to be like a registered democrat..not an independent or a ...god forbid SATANIC Republican...they dont even care if you bring a gun to work as long as you make the phone calls and canvass the neighborhood to get the lazy bastards out to vote.
Casey just happens to be a good man a will make a good Senator...unlike Santorum ....the evil one ...;)


Building Sustainable National Security
Bob Casey believes that our nation must be committed to crushing the threat of terrorism. At the same time, our armed forces must have a clear mission and the resources to do the job. In the U.S. Senate, Bob Casey will ask the tough questions and demand truthful answers from this or any other administration that puts our troops in harm's way. He will also push for restoring relationships with our allies and re-establishing the international respect and goodwill that the current administration has largely squandered.

Defeating Terrorism
Our original military actions to destroy Al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan were correct and effective steps to take. But Osama bin Laden is still on the loose.

As Pennsylvania's Senator, Bob Casey will push the White House and the Pentagon to redouble efforts to capture or kill bin Laden and crush the terrorist threat. Our troops at home and abroad should be honored for their dedicated work and their sacrifice. Bob Casey will make sure that same kind of relentless commitment to stamping out terrorism exists in Washington.

The Struggle in Iraq
The situation in Iraq has no easy solutions. Our troops are doing an outstanding job in battling insurgent forces. But the administration's misconceived and badly executed strategies have been turning Iraq into a worldwide haven for terrorists and endangering hope for a stable democracy to emerge.

We now know that the Bush administration's rationale for its rush to war was horribly flawed. The supposedly imminent threat posed by the Hussein regime's possession of weapons of mass destruction did not exist. And it has become evident that the administration did not have a real plan for keeping the peace after our military's rout of Hussein and his military forces. Thus our soldiers have suffered more loss of life and limb from terrorist guerilla warfare after the toppling of Hussein's dictatorial regime.

Too many Washington politicians continue to shirk their duty to press the hard and necessary questions about our involvement in Iraq. Bob Casey will push for a clear exit strategy and real plans for the Iraqi forces to take care of their own security, and development of a government structure that is widely seen as legitimate among Iraq's various ethnic groups. This year should be a year of transition for the Iraqis to take responsibility for their own security and governance.

Keeping Our Homeland Safe
The threat of another deadly terrorist attack hangs over our nation. But Hurricane Katrina demonstrated that this administration is still not ready to handle any kind of major disaster.

Bob Casey will help lead the effort in Washington to make sure that all the homeland security recommendations of the independent and bipartisan 9/11 Commission are effectively implemented. In its recent report detailing lack of progress on the homeland security front, the Commission awarded the Bush administration and Congress with five Fs and twelve Ds. The American people deserve straight As and nothing less.

Bob Casey knows that Pennsylvania's ports, railways, and nuclear plants still remain particularly vulnerable to attacks that could result in significant loss of life. Thus a primary focus for him as Pennsylvania's Senator will be to accelerate and enhance homeland security efforts pertaining to critical infrastructure throughout our state and nation.

Maintaining the Strongest and Best Military in the World
The United States military is the best in the world and we must continue to maintain that standard. That means our military must be equipped for the challenges of today - not of the Cold War. Our nation faces a different type of enemy today. Our forces must be configured to respond to terrorist threats and that of rogue nations.

Pennsylvania is one of the largest contributors of National Guard and reservist troops in the country. The Defense Department's planning and protections for all our troops in Iraq have been remarkably deficient. But the Department's failure to provide even minimally adequate body armor for National Guard and reservist troops has been especially shocking. Bob Casey will be committed to making sure that inexcusable treatment of our troops does not occur again.

Rebuilding Respect Around the World
Bob Casey believes that our position in the world must be one of leadership, not brinkmanship. We cannot win the war on terrorism alone, and we cannot possibly expect our troops to carry the entire burden of the free world. It is in our own self-interest and the world's interest for the United States to re-engage with our foreign allies. The Bush administration has burned up a lot of our goodwill around the world. Bob Casey knows that we must make a serious commitment to restoring it.

In particular, the United States needs alliances to stop nuclear proliferation. Rogue states and terrorism go hand in hand. Congress has under-funded the Nunn-Lugar program designed to control Cold War nuclear weapons. It is critical to the safety of the United States and the rest of the world that nuclear weapons do not fall into terrorist hands.

The United States should use every tool it has - diplomatic, economic, political, and even leaving all military options on the table - to stop Iran's nuclear ambitions. For too long, the Bush administration failed to exhibit a serious hard-line attitude against North Korea's nuclear program. We cannot afford to repeat such mistakes anywhere else in the world.

The U.S.-Israel Partnership
The United States and Israel share a deep, unshakable bond based on common values and mutual interests.

The United States must use its power and resources to protect Israel from terrorist threats, pressure Arab states to halt any support or tolerance for terrorism, provide Israel with sufficient military and economic aid, and remain committed to Israel's quest for peace with security.

As a United States Senator, Bob Casey will insist on a strong U.S.-Israel relationship and diplomatic support for peace in the Middle East based upon Israel's security needs.


Wouldn't you vote for this guy ?

I bet a Bunch of you think he's a Republican.

I bet most Democrats would hate him if they didnt want to win so bad.

This is the kind of guy you want running for President....



The Bush Administration's failed commitment to fiscal responsibility is damaging the future of Pennsylvania's working families. Bob Casey is committed to stimulating the economy through innovation especially in the small business sector, fair trade policies, enhancing educational opportunities, and providing greater economic security.

Taking an Honest Look at Our Economy
These days we often hear two extreme and contradictory views of our economy: either the sky is falling or a great recovery is underway.

But most ordinary people who Bob Casey meets on the campaign trail express a third view - one which is still hopeful but very anxious about the economy.

People are not overly impressed by news about the recent up-tick in aggregate economic growth or job creation. They instinctively know that these numbers are mainly looking up because they had fallen so dramatically. They also know that these macro-numbers disguise a lot of the painful churning at the micro-level where they actually live. Their family finances demonstrate that wages remain flat while health coverage and other expenses are still shooting up.

But they also know that it has always been a bad bet to think the American economy will not remain number one in the world. Their common sense tells them what our most optimistic economists predict: our economy has all the ingredients necessary for another unprecedented productivity take-off that leaves all others far in the dust.

What makes people very anxious, however, is they do not see leadership from Washington bringing the nation together to get the job done. Instead Washington seems to be engaging in a massive spend-down of all our inherited capital. That's what our deficits in the federal budget and international trade signify.

Bob's Economic Plan
From the very first days of his campaign for the U.S. Senate, Bob Casey has been emphasizing the need to get our country back on track and restore the economic confidence of the American people. And in October 2005, before the Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce, Bob Casey unveiled his seven-point plan to stimulate economic growth:

Restore and Enhance Crucial Support for the Small Business Sector
Numerous presidential speeches continue to tell us that small businesses are our greatest sources of breakthrough innovation and new jobs. But Washington continues to slash budgets for crucial technological and capital assistance to the small-business sector. Since 2001, the Bush administration and the Republican Congress have cut the Small Business Administration (SBA) budget by 41 percent.

Bob Casey's plan emphasizes the need to restore and enhance funding for the SBA as well as such related federal initiatives as Small Business Development Centers and Manufacturing Extension Partnerships.

Stimulate Small Business Innovation
In 1982, the Small Business Innovation Research (SBIR) program was created as a response to the loss of American competitiveness in global markets. Federal agencies with a significant R&D budget were mandated to allocate a small percentage of their annual budgets to fund small firms developing innovative products and services.

The SBIR program awards about $1.5-2.0 billion in grants to small businesses each year. It emphasizes early-stage financing, which is generally ignored by private venture capital. Some of our nation's most innovative companies received early-stage financing from SBIR, including Apple Computer, Compaq, and Intel.

Studies have shown that SBIR funding changes the behavior of knowledge workers. For example, researchers have found that SBIR funding significantly helps scientists starting biotechnology firms to leave an academic path or a career with a large pharmaceutical corporation.

Bob Casey's plan calls for increasing the percentage from the current 2 percent level in R&D agency budgets. As Casey emphasized in his Chamber of Commerce speech, the amount of SBIR funding can be doubled or tripled without Congress having to appropriate any additional new dollars to agency budgets. The resulting boost in innovation will greatly benefit federal agency research and significantly stimulate the economy.

Improve the Workforce Investment Act
The purpose of the federal Workforce Investment Act (WIA) is to provide the best workforce training that can possibly be designed in local communities across the nation. Yet too few business owners and workers - especially in the small business sector - are involved in or even know about the WIA's local training programs.

Bob Casey's plan thus calls for a revamping of WIA to make sure that employers and workers are at the center of designing local WIA training initiatives. Their active participation will improve WIA's responsiveness to the needs of local economic markets and help develop new economic partnerships throughout those markets.

Invest in Math and Science Education Plus Research and Development
Our public education system remains the bedrock of our economic growth. More of our students must pursue math and science education in order to have the high-paid skills needed to fuel the 21st century economy. Bob Casey's plan calls for targeted incentives and scholarships, especially for women and minority students, to help steer students onto the high-road career paths in the math and science fields. Bob Casey also supports enhanced funding for the National Science Foundation and the National Institutes of Health as well as making the R&D tax credit permanent.

Make a Strong Commitment to Hybrid and Alternative Fuel Technology
Bob Casey's plan features the kind of strong commitment to hybrid and alternative fuel technologies that is now lacking in federal energy legislation. Greater reliance on these technologies will decrease our dependence on foreign oil, spur new industry, and improve the environment.

Bolster Retirement Security
In the increasingly global economy where most workers no longer spend a career with one employer, Bob Casey believes workers need "portable" pensions that seamlessly follow them from job to job. His plan endorses development of portable pensions that will be open to Americans of all income levels and that will encourage workers to better protect their savings through diversification of their investments.

Reduce the cost of Health Care
Bob Casey knows that we can't fix the economy without fixing health care. That's why he has proposed the creation of a nationwide purchasing pool so that small businesses can join together and negotiate more affordable private health insurance coverage.



WOW he is even sane FISCALLY !!! OMG.....

are you sure this guys a Democrat....he makes Joe Lieberman look like a communist...:eek:

But this is what the Democrats need to win on a national level.

Too bad the radicals and the kook base wont let a guy like this live .

they are not being beaten . They have never lost one battle in Iraq to anyone . EVER...The only ones being beaten are here in the US .
You keep saying the Bush soundbytes, but I don't think you are paying attention to what is going on? If you really care about your troops, you will bring them home as soon as possible.

We've Lost Battle for Baghdad, US Admits (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/1020-02.htm)

The title might be a bit over the top, but perhaps you might get a sense what is going on over there?

Your Canadian and a good person unused to the sewers of Pennsylvania politics and heaven forbid Philadelphia... so you have a soul and cant understand politics in the city .:D[

Santorum is a senator ...a very evil senator ....to defeat him you must make a sacrifice at the political altar of a worthy measure..and You must work to get a democrat elected in his place because the primary was a joke.
Not to mention to work on a Democrats campaign they want you to be like a registered democrat..not an independent or a ...god forbid SATANIC Republican...they dont even care if you bring a gun to work as long as you make the phone calls and canvass the neighborhood to get the lazy bastards out to vote.
Casey just happens to be a good man a will make a good Senator...unlike Santorum ....the evil one ...;)

Wouldn't you vote for this guy ?

I bet a Bunch of you think he's a Republican.

I bet most Democrats would hate him if they didnt want to win so bad.

This is the kind of guy you want running for President....

WOW he is even sane FISCALLY !!! OMG.....

are you sure this guys a Democrat....he makes Joe Lieberman look like a communist...:eek:

But this is what the Democrats need to win on a national level.

Too bad the radicals and the kook base wont let a guy like this live .
I don't see anything too radical about this guy. I would certainly vote for him over the Republican Santorum.

He wants to go after Bin Laden, and exit Iraq.

Getting Bin Laden used to be priority one? Bush forgot that when he went to Iraq.

You keep saying the Bush soundbytes, but I don't think you are paying attention to what is going on? If you really care about your troops, you will bring them home as soon as possible.

We've Lost Battle for Baghdad, US Admits (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/1020-02.htm)

The title might be a bit over the top, but perhaps you might get a sense what is going on over there?

Cannuck I get e-mails from over there from family..its no way near as bad as the media makes it....good news and pacified areas dont sell news ....

There is a battle going on right now...a critical one to establish the government ...its the last chance for the insurgents and they are throwing everything they have into it ...in the small areaas they can operate or the Government is unable to stop them from operating. The Sunni will not except anything but almost equal influence and a guarantee of oil revenues as part of the federal system along with a break of the influence of iran ..they in their own way are fighting for their country too. And then you have the bathist and sadan loyalist that still think they can create chaos and come in as strongmen and rule again...they need killing along with the shiite death squads going around hunting every Saddam related person in Iraq and chopping them into little pieces. Thats why the ARMY is so damm important second only to the reconciliation with the main Sunni group. The current government cant disband all the militia because the police force is still scewed up and the militia have infiltrated much of it...you have pro Iran Shiite and anti Iran shiite and...the Sadi Army to deal with..the young Shiite cleric thats a bit Wahabbi for his own good.
Its not easy but it can be done . The insurgents know they are so close to losing it all ...and yet a inch away from the chaos they need to win .

The US leaves you get chaos. They win . The US stays you get a shot at a democratic Iraq if you and the Iraqi's do the right things...like RERALLY crack down on the Militia's running wild and Weed out and reform the police force..the biggest Bush administration failure no one mentions .

You need to show Iraq's leaders you have their backs so they can do the tough things needed to stabilise the country ...and scaring the shit out of them by saying we are splitting ..fend for your self ..is NOT going to grow them any balls .

So all the wishy washy bullshit here in the US does effect the way the Iraqi government operates.

Can they trust us to take their back when they taake on the Militia ?

Or will they be hanging on a rope with their balls cut off while we watch from our redeployment in GUAM ?


Debate away ...

really I cant do Bush sound bites . We just both want the same thing and dont aggree on how to do it . And Focusing on hating a guy instead of issues is what lost the last election ..along with that asshole Kerry for a candidate.

I don't see anything too radical about this guy. I would certainly vote for him over the Republican Santorum.

He wants to go after Bin Laden, and exit Iraq.

Getting Bin Laden used to be priority one? Bush forgot that when he went to Iraq.

Casey was and is for the war in Iraq but not for the way its being fought or how it was done from the beginning. He is very clear on that.

But he still has to face the fact that Bush is dealing with...to get Bin Laden you have to go to Pakistan...and say goodbye to that place after you get him that way . Pakistan has lots of nukes and MANY radical Islamic jihadist who just would love to kill all the infidels on earth.....how would you like a Taliban with NUKES ???:D

Thats the only reason Bin Laden is alive . That and he's a tough old buzzard who wont just friggin die and solve that problem .


Canuck go to Joe Liebermans web site and compare the two...remember the dems destroyed him....and the lament guy is going to lose to him badly so now they got to kiss lieberman ass...and its costing them a seat . forever.:D

People tend to forget those " soldiers are us . We are the soldiers , meaning they are no different from us except they are commited to a life and death struggle. So the fact that they think like us shouldnt be a suprise... Some soldiers may have a liberal attitude towards almost everything but war.

Like you said a liberal attitude during a war will just get you shot :D But sure just like most of us they have different opinions on everything from abortion to gun controll to how bad the boss is running the current war they happen to be fighting in .

But they want to stay and win . it cant be much more plain than that .
they are not being beaten . They have never lost one battle in Iraq to anyone . EVER...The only ones being beaten are here in the US .
But that is putting everything into a confusion. Soldiers on a mission cannot change their mission. At least not with the same freedoms that a civilian can. I'd rather see our soldiers out of harms way than in it. But if they are going to be in harms way, I'd rather they perform well. Obviously the US military is good at getting at least a satisfactory performance from our soldiers and that is got by a certain curtail on their freedoms. By necessity.

But that doesn't change what should be every civilians job of pressuring politicians to put our soldiers where we feel that they are needed most and to take them out of harms way in places where we feel they may be doing more harm than good. Whether that means pulling them out immediately or getting a strategic withdrawal plan possibly lasting another couple years or more is certainly up for debate. I'm more for the latter, seeing as how the mess has already been made. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that you can support the troops without being blind and possibly save troops lives by changing minds of politicians (or changing the politicians themselves).

They want to finish their mission successfully. They don't want to stay and kill every last person who decides to pick up a rifle against them. I'd rather do what I can to see that the mission gets changed.