NationStates Jolt Archive

I was in Government Class a few days ago. My class was discussing the Torture Bill, and whether we believed it was right or not. My teacher had us stand in various corners of the room, to show our standpoint from: Totally Wrong, Kinda Wrong, Not Sure, Why not?, and Absolutely Needs to Be Done.

When we divided ourselves up, I was the only person in the "Totally Wrong" section. Everyone else, without exception, was in the Absolutely Needs to Be Done. When asked why they believed this, one girl, of voting age, responded:

"We are at war! We can't take any risks that the terrorists might be able to hide information from us. If torture is the best way to get it out of them, lets do it! Its not like Americans are being tortured anyway, but if they were terrorists too, they deserve it!" Those words will be burned in my memory forever.

"Its not like Americans are being tortured anyway, but if they were terrorists too, they deserve it!"


When asked why I stood alone, and didn't relent, I replied, "Don't you all see what's happening? What our country is coming to? The country that is supposed to be the beacon of freedom, justice, and moral treatment, torturing a prisoner? How can that be justified ever! I believe the Constitution says that there shall be no cruel and unusual punishment."

Then another girl responded, "If you don't like it, then leave!" Everyone nodded. "Our Government is doing what needs to be done. If you Liberals don't like it, tough! You don't deserve freedom!"

.....Why can they not see it? Usually, everyone follows my beliefs on matters. But this time.....its like they are zombies. They parrot what Bush and Rice say on TV. It is like all rationality has gone.

I fear for whats happening. I truly do. These are the new generation of voters. If more young people feel this way, and over a hundred who were asked did, then I pray for this country, because our days as a free nation are numbered.

Ignorance is Strength
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery


Orwell is laughing his ass off right now.

Ach... why not try and get your point across by showing them real cases where the US has got it wrong and people have been tortured and then released, and gagged to the highest.

That might change things.

Ignorance is Strength
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery


Orwell is laughing his ass off right now.


Very true. It is so ironic. He got everything right. Maybe he should have titled it: 2014, instead of 1984

Ignorance is Strength
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery


Orwell is laughing his ass off right now.

He'd be the only one...

Then another girl responded, "If you don't like it, then leave!" Everyone nodded. "Our Government is doing what needs to be done. If you Liberals don't like it, tough! You don't deserve freedom!"

Wow. We need to earn our freedom, do we? If we don't like it then we should leave? People like her sure know how to express how much they love our country's civil liberties. Amazing that wanting our rights to be protected and not to be tortured on a whim makes you a liberal.

Damn. Its still that way? In HS I was in a class, and I was the only one against Iraq war pt2. When asked why, I said that Iraq had nothing to do wit 9-11 and terrorism against the US, and they were a stablizing point in the middle east. I also told them that invading Iraq qould lead to endless bloodshed...I was booed and all that, and everyone said that Iraq "bombed the twin towers" and all that shit. And I pointed out that WTC wasn't bombed and most of the highjackers were from Saudi Arabia, so why not invade them. No one could answer. I also asked why we should jsut be able to invade any soveriegn nation we don't like. again no one answered. Eventually I was labeled as a terorrist sympathizer. Fucking high school drama.Im so glad to be away from it all

Very true. It is so ironic. He got everything right. Maybe he should have titled it: 2014, instead of 1984

Did you explain to them that you can make anyone say anything under torture? If I pulled all your fingernails off and stuck your hands in battery acid, I could make you say that bush is osama bin laden in disguise.

Did you also explain to them that Bush is not a conservative?

Wow. We need to earn our freedom, do we? If we don't like it then we should leave? People like her sure know how to express how much they love our country's civil liberties.

Yeah. My jaw dropped to the floor man.

Wow. We need to earn our freedom, do we? If we don't like it then we should leave? People like her sure know how to express how much they love our country's civil liberties.


Yeah, I know. Its their only response. If for some reason you don't like the policy of the US then you must leave, instead of trying to stick around and change it for the better.

Did you explain to them that you can make anyone say anything under torture? If I pulled all your fingernails off and stuck your hands in battery acid, I could make you say that bush is osama bin laden in disguise.

Did you also explain to them that Bush is not a conservative?

I sure did. They merely shrugged.

Ignorance is Strength
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery

Orwell is laughing his ass off right now.

Yup, I think that sums it up quite nicely.

I thought the stupidity of the majority could no longer surprise me, but that's... yes, horrifying.

I sure did. They merely shrugged.

What does your government teacher believe? Is he/she among the sane?

Did you explain to them that you can make anyone say anything under torture? If I pulled all your fingernails off and stuck your hands in battery acid, I could make you say that bush is osama bin laden in disguise.

Hell, I could make them say that without ever physically harming them.

I sure did. They merely shrugged.

A constant with irrational people is that they are impervious to fact and to reality. You can explain reality to them as long as you like; their response will simply be to deny it. They will not use logic. They will simply go into denial. If what you say doesn't fit into their comfortingly simplistic world view, then it simply cannot be true. It would be too great a paradox for their minds to handle. Or perhaps too much of a mental effort.

It's thoroughly depressing.

What does your government teacher believe? Is he/she among the sane?

Actually, she never said. All I know is she is a registered Republican.

oh, dear god

oh, dear god

:confused:

Actually, she never said. All I know is she is a registered Republican.


more than likely supports the bill

more than likely supports the bill

Thats what I thought too....:(

:confused:

Sorry, just in absolute awe that people are so screwed up in this country.

Torture should never be used, no matter the circumstances.

Sorry, just in absolute awe that people are so screwed up in this country.

Torture should never be used, no matter the circumstances.

Well said.

No torture..... just Tortorella :D

Go Tampa Bay Lightning!

A constant with irrational people is that they are impervious to fact and to reality. You can explain reality to them as long as you like; their response will simply be to deny it. They will not use logic. They will simply go into denial. If what you say doesn't fit into their comfortingly simplistic world view, then it simply cannot be true. It would be too great a paradox for their minds to handle. Or perhaps too much of a mental effort.

I really hate groupthink. My gov't class was asked the question "Do you think the american gov't is upholding the freedoms in the constitution?"

I was one of two who said no. They weren't delusional jingos though, just really complacent they said nothing in the 1st amendment was being outright breached so its fine. I stated that the right to a fair trial, no cruel &unusual punishments, and illegal seizures were all being violated. I then stated that America is nothing more than an idea turned into a state, that idea is the constitution, when you change it you change the state of america. I said that already America was being altered, and once it starts we will be going 30 MPH down a very slippery slope. That converted about 10 or so people, i was really glad.

A constant with irrational people is that they are impervious to fact and to reality. You can explain reality to them as long as you like; their response will simply be to deny it. They will not use logic. They will simply go into denial. If what you say doesn't fit into their comfortingly simplistic world view, then it simply cannot be true. It would be too great a paradox for their minds to handle. Or perhaps too much of a mental effort.

It's thoroughly depressing.

It is not even as if it is that complicated a concept. The fact that the Torture Bill is going completely against the Bill of Rights and against everything America is supposed to stand for isn't exactly something that only the intelligent can grasp. It should be something where you roll your eyes and say "D'uh!" But apparently not... :(

Actually, she never said. All I know is she is a registered Republican.

Doesn't quite make me confident she is in my "sane" category". Though i'm not sure how the Republican rank and file really feel about the bill. Maybe they are not quite as supportive as those in Washington?

*hopes*

I really hate groupthink. My gov't class was asked the question "Do you think the american gov't is upholding the freedoms in the constitution?"

I was one of two who said no. They weren't delusional jingos though, just really complacent they said nothing in the 1st amendment was being outright breached so its fine. I stated that the right to a fair trial, no cruel &unusual punishments, and illegal seizures were all being violated. I then stated that America is nothing more than an idea turned into a state, that idea is the constitution, when you change it you change the state of america. I said that already America was being altered, and once it starts we will be going 30 MPH down a very slippery slope. That converted about 10 or so people, i was really glad.

:D

Thats why for this Government Project I have to do, I'm working on a Repeal the Patriot Act Bill. Working on my powerpoint/speech.....

Well, this is Double plus bad.

I was in Government Class a few days ago. My class was discussing the Torture Bill, and whether we believed it was right or not. My teacher had us stand in various corners of the room, to show our standpoint from: Totally Wrong, Kinda Wrong, Not Sure, Why not?, and Absolutely Needs to Be Done.

When we divided ourselves up, I was the only person in the "Totally Wrong" section. Everyone else, without exception, was in the Absolutely Needs to Be Done. When asked why they believed this, one girl, of voting age, responded:

"We are at war! We can't take any risks that the terrorists might be able to hide information from us. If torture is the best way to get it out of them, lets do it! Its not like Americans are being tortured anyway, but if they were terrorists too, they deserve it!" Those words will be burned in my memory forever.

"Its not like Americans are being tortured anyway, but if they were terrorists too, they deserve it!"


When asked why I stood alone, and didn't relent, I replied, "Don't you all see what's happening? What our country is coming to? The country that is supposed to be the beacon of freedom, justice, and moral treatment, torturing a prisoner? How can that be justified ever! I believe the Constitution says that there shall be no cruel and unusual punishment."

Then another girl responded, "If you don't like it, then leave!" Everyone nodded. "Our Government is doing what needs to be done. If you Liberals don't like it, tough! You don't deserve freedom!"

.....Why can they not see it? Usually, everyone follows my beliefs on matters. But this time.....its like they are zombies. They parrot what Bush and Rice say on TV. It is like all rationality has gone.

I fear for whats happening. I truly do. These are the new generation of voters. If more young people feel this way, and over a hundred who were asked did, then I pray for this country, because our days as a free nation are numbered.

I think New Naliitr just did something like this. But my response is the same.


It is unfortunate that we, the few intellectuals, will have to suffer for their lack of foresight.

*reference to Prometheus+Epimetheus*

I often wonder at the monumental stupidity of the people who write and pass bill like these. I reminds me of that ministerial powers bill in the UK, the governing parties are so arrogant and short sighted that they don't seem to realise that a few years down the line they won't be in power any more and these new powers will be being used against them.

Then another girl responded, "If you don't like it, then leave!" Everyone nodded. "Our Government is doing what needs to be done. If you Liberals don't like it, tough! You don't deserve freedom!"

You should have said. "Make me."

Now that they have proven themselves to be Neo-conned drones, (While you can think for yourself) You have the high ground.

Find a copy of 1984, next time you're in the class be sure to drop it loudly in plain sight. Don't say anything just makes sure it drops loudly on the floor. Then smirk at the other students as if you know how pathetic they are while picking it up. Leave it on your desk\table\whatever the rest of the class. Watch for the possible fireworks.

If the teacher kicks you out... Well you can go to whoever's in charge and get the teacher also.

I have to listen to " Of course I think gay marriage/abortion is wrong" on a semi-daily basis. Though to be honest I only think torture is wrong on to basis. 1. I don't trust the government to pick the right people and 2. is costs too much.

I often wonder at the monumental stupidity of the people who write and pass bill like these. I reminds me of that ministerial powers bill in the UK, the governing parties are so arrogant and short sighted that they don't seem to realise that a few years down the line they won't be in ower any more and these new powers will be being used against them.

Yeah. The worst part of it all is that the people won't vote the bastards out of office! We should, in the US, be voting against Republicans AND Democrats. We should elect someone else:

Libertarians, Socialists, Communists, Greens, hell, I don't care! Someone but those other jackasses. They've proven they suck. They've shown that over the past 100 years! We need to give someone else a shot! (Except the bloody Neo-Nazis. They can go to hell.)

You should have said. "Make me."

Now that they have proven themselves to be Neo-conned drones, (While you can think for yourself) You have the high ground.

Find a copy of 1984, next time you're in the class be sure to drop it loudly in plain sight. Don't say anything just makes sure it drops loudly on the floor. Then smirk at the other students as if you know how pathetic they are while picking it up. Leave it on your desk\table\whatever the rest of the class. Watch for the possible fireworks.

If the teacher kicks you out... Well you can go to whoever's in charge and get the teacher also.
I'm afraid that most of the other students wouldn't get it or not bother about noticing the title. It's hard to deliver subtle political messages in high school.

You should have said. "Make me."

Now that they have proven themselves to be Neo-conned drones, (While you can think for yourself) You have the high ground.

Find a copy of 1984, next time you're in the class be sure to drop it loudly in plain sight. Don't say anything just makes sure it drops loudly on the floor. Then smirk at the other students as if you know how pathetic they are while picking it up. Leave it on your desk\table\whatever the rest of the class. Watch for the possible fireworks.

If the teacher kicks you out... Well you can go to whoever's in charge and get the teacher also.

That is awsome. Truly awsome. I'll have to remember that.


EDIT: Sane Outcasts has a point....nobody would get the message. :(

:D

Thats why for this Government Project I have to do, I'm working on a Repeal the Patriot Act Bill. Working on my powerpoint/speech.....

Ah, the old make your own bill. I enjoyed that. The class was certainly supportive of my legalize marijuana bill, though not so much to clean up Boston Harbor...

( I was representing MA)

I guess I was lucky that when I had the class in the fall of 2001, Bush hadn't had the chance to really get his madness going so bills were more... boring.

I really hate groupthink. My gov't class was asked the question "Do you think the american gov't is upholding the freedoms in the constitution?"

I was one of two who said no. They weren't delusional jingos though, just really complacent they said nothing in the 1st amendment was being outright breached so its fine. I stated that the right to a fair trial, no cruel &unusual punishments, and illegal seizures were all being violated. I then stated that America is nothing more than an idea turned into a state, that idea is the constitution, when you change it you change the state of america. I said that already America was being altered, and once it starts we will be going 30 MPH down a very slippery slope. That converted about 10 or so people, i was really glad.

You've restored a bit of my faith in humanity. Assuming, that is, that they won't be swayed right back by the next thing they hear.

Ah, the old make your own bill. I enjoyed that. The class was certainly supportive of my legalize marijuana bill, though not so much to clean up Boston Harbor...

( I was representing MA)

I guess I was lucky that when I had the class in the fall of 2001, Bush hadn't had the chance to really get his madness going so bills were more... boring.

lol, yeah. Most people are doing: Lowering Drinking Age, Cleaning up Hazardous Waste, or Legalize Marijuana. Mine is the only different one.

That is awsome. Truly awsome. I'll have to remember that.


EDIT: Sane Outcasts has a point....nobody would get the message. :(
Still it will make you feel really good to know that you're snubbing them and they don't even notice.

lol, yeah. Most people are doing: Lowering Drinking Age, Cleaning up Hazardous Waste, or Legalize Marijuana. Mine is the only different one.

I did a bill making the state gov't do healthcare for its people, then i did one about making a cap on money to be charged against doctors in punitive damages, and also one on rehabilitating prisoners, ie instead of letting them have free time to pump up, mmake them take anger management classes, get them to finish their education, and teach them vocational skills.

That is awsome. Truly awsome. I'll have to remember that.


EDIT: Sane Outcasts has a point....nobody would get the message. :(

The silver lining to this whole event is that it shows that you are much more educated, or at least more critical, about politics than your classmates and more likely to actually vote when elections come. Apathy runs high among people that don't pay attention to politics, and they seem to be the ones that regurgitate their views. A lot of the people on the other side of the room probably went there because that's where everyone else went. Another large group would probably have taken your side if they had given it some thought, or at least cared enough to learn more about the Bill itself. You probably had only a few committed supporters of the use of torture on the other side of the room.

Ask them to imagine Hillary Clinton with those powers. It's a very, very good way to make the hardline Republicans realize why that bill is abhorrent.

Ask them to imagine Hillary Clinton with those powers. It's a very, very good way to make the hardline Republicans realize why that bill is abhorrent.

ROFL!

I did a bill making the state gov't do healthcare for its people, then i did one about making a cap on money to be charged against doctors in punitive damages, and also one on rehabilitating prisoners, ie instead of letting them have free time to pump up, mmake them take anger management classes, get them to finish their education, and teach them vocational skills.

Yeah, I wish I was a bit more politically aware back in my class. Perhaps I could have done more origional legislation. :(

Though our class congress was about 60-65% Republican so they probably would have killed some of your bills in committee.

Ask them to imagine Hillary Clinton with those powers. It's a very, very good way to make the hardline Republicans realize why that bill is abhorrent.
for some reason, I'm picturing a Sweating Bill Clinton... :p

A constant with irrational people is that they are impervious to fact and to reality. You can explain reality to them as long as you like; their response will simply be to deny it. They will not use logic. They will simply go into denial. If what you say doesn't fit into their comfortingly simplistic world view, then it simply cannot be true. It would be too great a paradox for their minds to handle. Or perhaps too much of a mental effort.

It's thoroughly depressing.

It isn't a matter of irrationality; it's a matter of belief. Conservatism gives people an incredibly seductive way of framing a troubling world, whereas liberalism, or at least the contemporary version of liberalism as a source of disenchantment about the world or an exercise in technocratic procedure, does not. If that girl is lower-class, white, Southern, or any combination thereof, it's not particularly surprising that she detests liberals, because despite the fact that liberals will be slightly more compassionate about her diminishing life chances (not that most elected liberals will actually do anything about it, but they'll at least commisserate with you over your future poverty), they walk the walk and talk the talk of the "We're better than you" WASP-y elites of old. She treats them with disdain because the last time a true liberal actually cared about improving her life was during the Great Society, which she probably hasn't even heard about.

Yeah, I wish I was a bit more politically aware back in my class. Perhaps I could have done more origional legislation. :(

Though our class congress was about 60-65% Republican so they probably would have killed some of your bills in committee.


Well my bills were in the IL YMCA Youth and Government. So not only did i have to defend them on the house floor all three years from republicans, but also from those in the chicago area. See it was a political ball game. Chicago and the north Vs Mt Vernon and the south. Of course, we won governor two years in a row(i helped with campaigning of course ;)), but still, it was a hard job defending good ideas agains blood thirsty idiots.

<snip>

Wow. Powerful story. It's too bad that class isn't doing most of those students any good at all.

It is like all rationality has gone.

Yeah, it really has.

I fear for whats happening. I truly do. These are the new generation of voters. If more young people feel this way, and over a hundred who were asked did, then I pray for this country, because our days as a free nation are numbered.

Our days as a free nation are gone, if they ever really existed. We may still be freer than all or most other nations, which I'm not certain I necessarily agree with, but we aren't free at all by the definition of free. We're also obviously failing miserably to continue the legacy of the brave men and women who fought so hard to push this country into the prominence it enjoys today. I do fear what's happening, and I wonder if there is anyplace in the world where reason and the values expressed in the foundational documents of the United States remain intact.

Wow. Powerful story. It's too bad that class isn't doing most of those students any good at all.



Yeah, it really has.



Our days as a free nation are gone, if they ever really existed. We may still be freer than all or most other nations, which I'm not certain I necessarily agree with, but we aren't free at all by the definition of free. We're also obviously failing miserably to continue the legacy of the brave men and women who fought so hard to push this country into the prominence it enjoys today. I do fear what's happening, and I wonder if there is anyplace in the world where reason and the values expressed in the foundational documents of the United States remain intact.


I've heard Australia, Switzerland, and Canada are pretty good.

Yeah. The worst part of it all is that the people won't vote the bastards out of office! We should, in the US, be voting against Republicans AND Democrats. We should elect someone else:

Libertarians, Socialists, Communists, Greens, hell, I don't care! Someone but those other jackasses. They've proven they suck. They've shown that over the past 100 years! We need to give someone else a shot! (Except the bloody Neo-Nazis. They can go to hell.)

I should note that balance is important in government. You need conservatives, even extremists, to keep the extreme-lefties from passing stupid bills as well.
Unless you WANT %82 income tax and all the bloated social programs you can handle.

Our days as a free nation are gone, if they ever really existed. We may still be freer than all or most other nations, which I'm not certain I necessarily agree with, but we aren't free at all by the definition of free. We're also obviously failing miserably to continue the legacy of the brave men and women who fought so hard to push this country into the prominence it enjoys today. I do fear what's happening, and I wonder if there is anyplace in the world where reason and the values expressed in the foundational documents of the United States remain intact.

So long as one person yearns to breathe free, America still lives.

I should note that balance is important in government. You need conservatives, even extremists, to keep the extreme-lefties from passing stupid bills as well.
Unless you WANT %82 income tax and all the bloated social programs you can handle.

I agree. But also, like I asked you before:

CHECK YOUR TELEGRAMS!!!!

I've heard Australia, Switzerland, and Canada are pretty good.

Swiss won't let us in, Canada may only be marginally better, if at all, when compared overall with it's own set of failings, and Australia may be arguably worse given what I've heard from people who live there. Of course, most of them don't see anything really wrong with it beyond normal political discourse and disagreement. I guess the main advantage in those two is the large amount of wilderness area still left, so it'd be easier to go set up someplace and live off the grid. Still tough, though, since that's kinda like running away and hiding from the problem, which doesn't ever solve anything.

Good, glad to see somebody on this forum is sane :P

I dont check my TG's much, since Ive only gotten regional ads thus far. Usually I respond by copy/pasting the ads back. Its fun.
*rummages*

So long as one person yearns to breathe free, America still lives.

Word. And I'd imagine that figure is more than one at this point, just not most. So the question is, how do we get all of those people together and working together to be able to create a politically/socially viable force? Voting is only part of the answer. We're a decided minority. There has to be a way to make this work.

Word. And I'd imagine that figure is more than one at this point, just not most. So the question is, how do we get all of those people together and working together to be able to create a politically/socially viable force? Voting is only part of the answer. We're a decided minority. There has to be a way to make this work.

Get someone who is a good speaker, knows what he's talking about, and get a group like us behind him. Make rallies, get media attention, etc.

TV is an extremely powerful weapon in political campaigning.

Word. And I'd imagine that figure is more than one at this point, just not most. So the question is, how do we get all of those people together and working together to be able to create a politically/socially viable force? Voting is only part of the answer. We're a decided minority. There has to be a way to make this work.

We need something they don't have but really want...

In other words, get working, men. We have to find the replacement for oil.

Swiss won't let us in, Canada may only be marginally better, if at all, when compared overall with it's own set of failings, and Australia may be arguably worse given what I've heard from people who live there.
Can't speak about Canada.

Switzerland doesn't let anyone in, except you have a high-paying job. And if you do, it'll take you about a decade before you are eligible for citizenship. During that time you'll still be a US citizen - and for the rest of your life you'll still be asked to justify yourself for US policies. :p

Australia...well, there's better political alternatives. Labour not so much (a union party essentially, but with the unions dying it doesn't really have any political agenda anymore), but the Greens are pretty decent. They're gaining every election.
At the same time however, at the moment we have a neocon government controlling both houses of parliament. The "Sedition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_sedition_law#Seditious_Intention_2)" bill was just one of many things that get the blood pumping - provided you do care. Because sometimes I think people here aren't really any more interested than those drones from the OP's story.

As much as I would not want to quote a Nazi, this phrase works perfectly into our nations' current state.

"So fortunate for leaders that soldiers/people do not think" ~Adolf Hitler

It can be either people or soldiers, both of them work into it. :(

As much as I would not want to quote a Nazi, this phrase works perfectly into our nations' current state.



It can be either people or soldiers, both of them work into it.

You bring up a good point, one which we have been discussing. But this quote adds to it.

Well said, and nice first post! :)

I was in Government Class a few days ago. My class was discussing the Torture Bill, and whether we believed it was right or not. My teacher had us stand in various corners of the room, to show our standpoint from: Totally Wrong, Kinda Wrong, Not Sure, Why not?, and Absolutely Needs to Be Done.

When we divided ourselves up, I was the only person in the "Totally Wrong" section. Everyone else, without exception, was in the Absolutely Needs to Be Done. When asked why they believed this, one girl, of voting age, responded:

"We are at war! We can't take any risks that the terrorists might be able to hide information from us. If torture is the best way to get it out of them, lets do it! Its not like Americans are being tortured anyway, but if they were terrorists too, they deserve it!" Those words will be burned in my memory forever.

"Its not like Americans are being tortured anyway, but if they were terrorists too, they deserve it!"


When asked why I stood alone, and didn't relent, I replied, "Don't you all see what's happening? What our country is coming to? The country that is supposed to be the beacon of freedom, justice, and moral treatment, torturing a prisoner? How can that be justified ever! I believe the Constitution says that there shall be no cruel and unusual punishment."

Then another girl responded, "If you don't like it, then leave!" Everyone nodded. "Our Government is doing what needs to be done. If you Liberals don't like it, tough! You don't deserve freedom!"

.....Why can they not see it? Usually, everyone follows my beliefs on matters. But this time.....its like they are zombies. They parrot what Bush and Rice say on TV. It is like all rationality has gone.

I fear for whats happening. I truly do. These are the new generation of voters. If more young people feel this way, and over a hundred who were asked did, then I pray for this country, because our days as a free nation are numbered.

Were you sleeping on 9/11? You still have the mentality of September 10. How many terrorist attacks will it take to convince you that these people deserve no compassion?

And do you seriously think political activists are being thrown in jail?

I was in Government Class a few days ago. My class was discussing the Torture Bill, and whether we believed it was right or not. My teacher had us stand in various corners of the room, to show our standpoint from: Totally Wrong, Kinda Wrong, Not Sure, Why not?, and Absolutely Needs to Be Done.

When we divided ourselves up, I was the only person in the "Totally Wrong" section. Everyone else, without exception, was in the Absolutely Needs to Be Done. When asked why they believed this, one girl, of voting age, responded:

"We are at war! We can't take any risks that the terrorists might be able to hide information from us. If torture is the best way to get it out of them, lets do it! Its not like Americans are being tortured anyway, but if they were terrorists too, they deserve it!" Those words will be burned in my memory forever.

"Its not like Americans are being tortured anyway, but if they were terrorists too, they deserve it!"


When asked why I stood alone, and didn't relent, I replied, "Don't you all see what's happening? What our country is coming to? The country that is supposed to be the beacon of freedom, justice, and moral treatment, torturing a prisoner? How can that be justified ever! I believe the Constitution says that there shall be no cruel and unusual punishment."

Then another girl responded, "If you don't like it, then leave!" Everyone nodded. "Our Government is doing what needs to be done. If you Liberals don't like it, tough! You don't deserve freedom!"

.....Why can they not see it? Usually, everyone follows my beliefs on matters. But this time.....its like they are zombies. They parrot what Bush and Rice say on TV. It is like all rationality has gone.

I fear for whats happening. I truly do. These are the new generation of voters. If more young people feel this way, and over a hundred who were asked did, then I pray for this country, because our days as a free nation are numbered.

What torture bill :D

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_cong_bills&docid=f:s3930enr.txt.pdf


Point out the torture sections.....:D


Dont they at least make you read the thing before they attempt to teach about it ?:D


I hope your tuition isn't that high...your being robbed .

Were you sleeping on 9/11? You still have the mentality of September 10. How many terrorist attacks will it take to convince you that these people deserve no compassion?

And do you seriously think political activists are being thrown in jail?

Nope, on 9/11 I was sick at home, watching in horror as terrorists attacked the country I love. I have no problem with fighting terrorism. I do, however, think that I should not have to lose my freedom in order to combat it. There are plenty of other ways to do this. Besides, it doesn't matter how much security you have. Terrorists will always be able to hit us. We'll never destroy terrorism, thinking we will is naive. We can only show them that we won't stand for what they do, and we will hit back. But the worst thing we can do is let it affect our lives in this way. They are laughing their asses off right now, as this is what they want! They wanted to destroy America, and God damnit, THEY ARE DOING IT!

OPEN YOUR EYES MAN! Should my Great great (However many Greats) Grandfather have fought in the Revolutionary War, for this? He risked his life so that we would be free. He fought again in 1812 at the battle of Baltimore. Should my other relative in World War One have taken nine bullets, and two gassings for this? No! We aren't doing him justice! What about my Great Uncle, who was shot in the head in Korea. He lived, but he nearly died to defend freedom. All my scores of other relatives who fought and lived, or fell for this nation, are we doing their sacrifices justice by surrendering freedom they and their friends paid in blood for? They lost their youth, and in many cases, their life, so that we could live free.

But now these acts wish to take that away. We CAN NOT LET THEM.

I think if George Wahabi Bush or a future president (?) decides to go nuts with the MCA and create a big concentration camp (Gitmoschwitz can only hold so many) it would end up CREATING more terrorists than it would contain.

You thought Timothy McVeigh was bad? Think a federal building going up in smoke every week. Think the other federal buildings so clogged with US Marshal security detachments that entire city blocks around the federal buildings are shut down. Think paying a "September 11th Security Fee" (I'm not making this up, it actually appeared on an airplane ticket from AirTran Airways) to enter Washington D.C. or other high-value targets. Think the taxes climbing so high to combat terrorism that it breaks the economy.

That is what will prevent widespread abuse of the MCA. If the Supreme Court is smart, they'll strike it down before the world points the finger at the US as being the source of terrorism it would become. They haven't exactly been rational before, but I think they will do the right thing this time, and save American citizens from torture, and save good people from becoming terrorists, and save other good people from being their victims.

My point is... I think it should be struck down, but I think popular resistance will contain it, keep it from going out of hand. The MCA is a cancer on this country, and if it cannot be destroyed, it must be contained. The conservatives would say I hate America because I'm a liberal. It is because I care enough about America that I can't bear to see it become a dictatorship that views like mine are condemned. The conservatives led by Bush are destroying this country, and in true Orwellian fashion, claim that the liberals are the ones destroying America from within.

That whole thing with your class is just plain creepy. Seriously - it's not just that the concept of torturing people, even terrorists, is a bad one - it puts us down at nearly their level - it also doesn't work. You've got me on your side on this issue... this is just sad.

You see? I'm not a fascist nut-job - I just RP one on NationStates...

Were you sleeping on 9/11? You still have the mentality of September 10. How many terrorist attacks will it take to convince you that these people deserve no compassion?

Slow down, please. Without condoning in the slightest what they did, without suggesting that the Muslim world in general is or isn't doing a whole lot to help their case, without attempting to excuse any immature, violent or harmful actions on the part of Arabs or Muslims in recent times, I can say with certainty that nowhere exists a people undeserving of compassion. Don't be so quick to give yours up. It helps make you a better person.

That whole thing with your class is just plain creepy. Seriously - it's not just that the concept of torturing people, even terrorists, is a bad one - it puts us down at nearly their level - it also doesn't work. You've got me on your side on this issue... this is just sad.

You see? I'm not a fascist nut-job - I just RP one on NationStates...

Haha! I know man, I know. I can tell too, when you were really hesistant with that Khornate tribes genocide thing....

anyway, yeah, it was. The disturbing thing about it was the vigor they had. The assurance they seemed to possess that this was not wrong, but merely a part of war....

I gotta admit, I was afraid.

Sadly, ever since 9/11, this nation has been going downhill.

If the next presidents continue Bush's policies, America's fate will be just like that of Rome, and dare I say Byzantium.

Sadly, ever since 9/11, this nation has been going downhill.

If the next presidents continue Bush's policies, America's fate will be just like that of Rome, and dare I say Byzantium.

I've been seeing alot of the same pattern that led to the fall of Rome in the US....

Sadly, ever since 9/11, this nation has been going downhill.

If the next presidents continue Bush's policies, America's fate will be just like that of Rome, and dare I say Byzantium.

Which is why everyone needs an escape America plan after the shit hits the fan. I have relatives in Germany that would help us out. (Well, me, anyway.)

But in a more serious tone, history repeats itself, all to often. We need to convert the masses that watch Fox News (Government-approved news), and try to get people to actually think, before we all die from nuclear winter.

Sorry for the rant, it just pisses me off at the amount of ignorant people in this country.

What torture bill :D

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_cong_bills&docid=f:s3930enr.txt.pdf


Point out the torture sections.....:D


Dont they at least make you read the thing before they attempt to teach about it ?:D


I hope your tuition isn't that high...your being robbed .

‘‘(1) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT.—(A) The term ‘unlawful
enemy combatant’ means—
‘‘(i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who
has purposefully and materially supported hostilities
against the United States or its co-belligerents who is
not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who
is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces);
or
‘‘(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of
the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006,
has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant
by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent
tribunal established under the authority of the
President or the Secretary of Defense.
‘‘(3) ALIEN.—The term ‘alien’ means a person who is not
a citizen of the United States.
‘‘(g) GENEVA CONVENTIONS NOT ESTABLISHING SOURCE OF
RIGHTS.—No alien unlawful enemy combatant subject to trial by
military commission under this chapter may invoke the Geneva
Conventions as a source of rights.
In short, any noncitizen does not receive Geneva Convention rights.

‘‘(b) EXCLUSION OF STATEMENTS OBTAINED BY TORTURE.—A
statement obtained by use of torture shall not be admissible in
a military commission under this chapter, except against a person
accused of torture as evidence that the statement was made.
In short, anyone accused of torture may be legally tortured into a confession.

And that's only in the first eight pages.

And that's only in the first eight pages.

Amazing. And people try to argue that all that is perfectly acceptable in a country like America that crows about its freedoms. Yeah. I can see how our government is real freedom loving.

‘‘(a) SESSIONS WITHOUT PRESENCE OF MEMBERS.—(1) At any
time after the service of charges which have been referred for
trial by military commission under this chapter, the military judge
may call the military commission into session without the presence
of the members for the purpose of—
‘‘(A) hearing and determining motions raising defenses or
objections which are capable of determination without trial
of the issues raised by a plea of not guilty;
‘‘(B) hearing and ruling upon any matter which may be
ruled upon by the military judge under this chapter, whether
or not the matter is appropriate for later consideration or
decision by the members;
‘‘(C) if permitted by regulations prescribed by the Secretary
of Defense, receiving the pleas of the accused; and
‘‘(D) performing any other procedural function which may
be performed by the military judge under this chapter or under
rules prescribed pursuant to section 949a of this title and
which does not require the presence of the members.

The "members", by the way, are the equivalent of the jury in a criminal court. By one reading of this, it is legal to not provide the jury with evidence that would render a verdict of "not guilty".

It's slow going on these, by the way. Legalese is difficult to read, because of the whole "letter of the law thing". The only reason that I've managed this is that I know enough grammar to figure out what the sentences actually say, instead of what they appear to say.

‘‘(e) EXCLUSION OF ACCUSED FROM CERTAIN PROCEEDINGS.—
The military judge may exclude the accused from any portion of
a proceeding upon a determination that, after being warned by
the military judge, the accused persists in conduct that justifies
exclusion from the courtroom—
‘‘(1) to ensure the physical safety of individuals; or
‘‘(2) to prevent disruption of the proceedings by the accused.

Oh holy Christ.

And of page 12 and the beginning of page 13, by way. Nice trick. Put the monstrous stuff in the middle area, where no one will bother to read.

Actually, she never said. All I know is she is a registered Republican.

Yeah, well, so was my eighth grade social studies teacher, and he believed (or at least taught us) that the war in Iraq was wrong, Bush was horrible, and Wal-Mart was the ultimate evil.

Oh holy Christ.

And of page 12 and the beginning of page 13, by way. Nice trick. Put the monstrous stuff in the middle area, where no one will bother to read.

Yeah, when I read these things for my Class Bill, I almost puked.

Yeah, well, so was my eighth grade social studies teacher, and he believed (or at least taught us) that the war in Iraq was wrong, Bush was horrible, and Wal-Mart was the ultimate evil.

And he is right in all regards.

(If you've read any of my Communism Threads, you'd know why I hate Wal-Mart so much....)

Yeah, when I read these things for my Class Bill, I almost puked.

Apparently democracy is marching in Iraq but retreating here in America. :(

Apparently democracy is marching in Iraq but retreating here in America. :(

Nope, its retreating in Iraq too. I've heard that we're holding on by a thread there and in Afghanistan. Actually, the war in Afghanistan is going even worse than in Iraq. In Afghanistan, 11 Soldiers are killed every day....that is absolutely terrible. That is almost Vietnam daily figures....

‘(b) EXCLUSION OF STATEMENTS OBTAINED BY TORTURE.—A
statement obtained by use of torture shall not be admissible in
a military commission under this chapter, except against a person
accused of torture as evidence that the statement was made.

In short, anyone accused of torture may be legally tortured into a confession.

Thats not what that paragragh says, read it again and you'll find that it allows the use of statements extracted using torture by the accused not from the accused as evidence that said torture happened.

People need to start reading this bill more dispassionatly, stupid statements harm the position of people opposed to the bill.

‘‘(b) SCOPE OF TRIAL.—No proceeding in which the accused
has been found guilty by military commission under this chapter
upon any charge or specification is a trial in the sense of this
section until the finding of guilty has become final after review
of the case has been fully completed.

And now the few restrictions placed don't even apply, since it wasn't legally a trial at the time.

‘‘(b) FINDING OF GUILT AFTER GUILTY PLEA.—With respect to
any charge or specification to which a plea of guilty has been
made by the accused in a military commission under this chapter
and accepted by the military judge, a finding of guilty of the
charge or specification may be entered immediately without a vote.
The finding shall constitute the finding of the commission unless
the plea of guilty is withdrawn prior to announcement of the sentence,
in which event the proceedings shall continue as though
the accused had pleaded not guilty.

Remember when torturing of anyone accused of torture was allowed? This is why.

Nope, its retreating in Iraq too.

I know, I was using a Bushim for my quote. Apparently people are so focused on how democracy is doing in Iraq they forget that it is being attacked at home as well. Perhaps we need to have our attention somwhere a tad more important?

Remember when torturing of anyone accused of torture was allowed? This is why.

The torture of people accused of torture is not allowed and the paragraph you quote is the same one used for regular courts, if a person pleads guilty the the jury doesn't have to vote on it, the plea is accepted as the outcome of the trial.

‘‘(c) PROTECTION OF CLASSIFIED INFORMATION.—(1) With respect
to the discovery obligations of trial counsel under this section,
the military judge, upon motion of trial counsel, shall authorize,
to the extent practicable—
‘‘(A) the deletion of specified items of classified information
from documents to be made available to the accused;
‘‘(B) the substitution of a portion or summary of the
information for such classified documents; or
‘‘(C) the substitution of a statement admitting relevant
facts that the classified information would tend to prove.
‘‘(2) The military judge, upon motion of trial counsel, shall
authorize trial counsel, in the course of complying with discovery
obligations under this section, to protect from disclosure the sources,
methods, or activities by which the United States acquired evidence
if the military judge finds that the sources, methods, or activities
by which the United States acquired such evidence are classified.
The military judge may require trial counsel to provide, to the
extent practicable, an unclassified summary of the sources, methods,
or activities by which the United States acquired such evidence.
Double whammy. The accused can now not be supplied anything that has been arbitrarily declared classified and torture is now legal as long as it is classified.

Ugh. That's disgusting. EVEN THE VIET CONG HAD AN OFFICIAL POLICY OF FOLLOWING THE GENEVA CONVENTION. WE DON'T EVEN HAVE THAT!

Anyway. So let's pretend you're a terriost/insurgent or heck, just a pro-american Iraqi. One of your buddies gets kidnapped, beaten, raped, forced to urinate on himself, been cut up, forced to appear naked, been simulated drowning, force-fed, insulted, been menaced with dogs, and imprisoned with no charges. You are likely to:

(Terriost/Iraqi)
A. Continue treating your prisoners reasonably/Continue supporting americans.
B. Cast down your arms to bask in the love of america/Become american's servant.
C. Shoot as many americans as humanly possible/Insult americans
D. Beat, Rape, Force to urinate on self, cut up, parade through streets naked, simulate drowning upon, menace with dogs, and insult your prisoners/Begin resisting americans.

Which will you honestly choose? Many people love a Vigilante (Excluding police), such as V, Zorro, Robin Hood, Daredevil, and Batman, seeing them as heroic figures who do things the police can't. Why is it when otherwise nice people are exposed to the sort of atrocities american troops commit, and decide to fight against it, they are considered terriosts instead of champions of the people?

NOTE: I AM NOT SAYING ALL INSURGENTS ARE CHAMPIONS OF THE PEOPLE.

The torture of people accused of torture is not allowed and the paragraph you quote is the same one used for regular courts, if a person pleads guilty the the jury doesn't have to vote on it, the plea is accepted as the outcome of the trial.
Sadly, it is. It looks like it isn't, but grammatically it is. And the letter of the law matters more than anything else. It also lacks any mechanism for the plea to be thrown out if evidence of coercion appears.

Disgusting. This is all getting rather depressing. Seeing the bill laid out makes it all more real.

Sadly, it is. It looks like it isn't, but grammatically it is. And the letter of the law matters more than anything else. It also lacks any mechanism for the plea to be thrown out if evidence of coercion appears.

No, it isn't. Unless you're using some form of grammar as yet unheard of on Earth, all that paragraph allows for is the inclusion of the record of a torture session as proof that said session occured. If a prosecution counsel wanted to use that clause than they'd really shoot themself in the foot, all they could say is we tortured the defendent, and here is his testimony under duress as proof that it happened.

This one is the kicker. Hidden on page 32, this paragraph uses slightly different language. This is the reason why MCA is called the torture bill.

(a) IN GENERAL.—No person may invoke the Geneva Conventions
or any protocols thereto in any habeas corpus or other civil
action or proceeding to which the United States, or a current
or former officer, employee, member of the Armed Forces, or other
agent of the United States is a party as a source of rights in
any court of the United States or its States or territories.

No, it isn't. Unless you're using some form of grammar as yet unheard of on Earth, all that paragraph allows for is the inclusion of the record of a torture session as proof that said session occured. If a prosecution counsel wanted to use that clause than they'd really shoot themself in the foot, all they could say is we tortured the defendent, and here is his testimony under duress as proof that it happened.

You're right. It's my fault for not supplying the surrounding paragraphs, because the context changes the meaning.

You're right. It's my fault for not supplying the surrounding paragraphs, because the context changes the meaning.

What about the context changes the meaning? The paragraph before reafirmed the defendents 5th amendment rights and the two after state that the judge can only allow statements where the level of coercion used is disputed if the facts obtained can be independantly proved, meaning that the evidence is superfluous anyway.

Edit: Anyway, this is a law not a novel, the paragraphs before and after can't be take to change context unless the paragraph in question directly references them.

Then another girl responded, "If you don't like it, then leave!" Everyone nodded. "Our Government is doing what needs to be done. If you Liberals don't like it, tough! You don't deserve freedom!"
It's at this point I'd knock them out and drive them down to Mexico. If anyone doesn't deserve freedom, it's someone who'd trade "safety" for it...

Actually, I don't need the context. Something very important is missing from that paragraph. There is nothing to say that the statement referred to has to be from the person that the person accused of torture was accused of torturing. That omission changes things ever so slightly. Not that it matters, since none of the regulations apply anyways, since they only apply to the trial, which the trial is not considered to be until after its conclusion, meaning that they effectively do no apply at all.

Oh holy Christ.

And of page 12 and the beginning of page 13, by way. Nice trick. Put the monstrous stuff in the middle area, where no one will bother to read.


You are so far out of touch with reality it amazes even me.


You just showed STANDARD CIVIL LAW PRATICE and called it MONSTEROUS stuff....:D


If someone acts up ..spits at the judge becomes disruptive the can be bound and gagged or thrown out of the court room and chained to a chair and watch their trial on TV...

IT HAPPENS EVERY DAY ALL OVER THE US IN EVERY COURTROOM .

You need to go find a clue.....your reading a document you cant even begin to comphrehend and commenting on it like you actually understand what your reading.

Its actually quite astonishing .:D

You are so far out of touch with reality it amazes even me.


You just showed STANDARD CIVIL LAW PRATICE and called it MONSTEROUS stuff....:D


If someone acts up ..spits at the judge becomes disruptive the can be bound and gagged or thrown out of the court room and chained to a chair and watch their trial on TV...

IT HAPPENS EVERY DAY ALL OVER THE US IN EVERY COURTROOM .

You need to go find a clue.....your reading a document you cant even begin to comphrehend and commenting on it like you actually understand what your reading.

Its actually quite astonishing .:D

Nice to see you ignored how the person does not have to be made aware of the progress of the trial. Continue smiling. Maybe it'll make hell seem more bearable.

Also, the last time someone spit on the judge, they just put a mask on him so he couldn't do it again.

Have you ever considered that you are wrong and they are right? You are displaying the symptoms which many crazy people exhibit, namely their faith that "I'm not crazy, it's all of you who are crazy!" If liberals such as yourself want to aid terrorists, so be it. The rest of your class won't allow themselves to be dragged down with you.

It's at this point I'd knock them out and drive them down to Mexico. If anyone doesn't deserve freedom, it's someone who'd trade "safety" for it...

Anyone who thinks we shouldn't have freedom of speech, that no one should criticize the government are the ones we need to get rid of. Those kids need a rude awakening about what America is supposed to stand for.

Wow. MTAE supports you. That should be a sign.

Many people love a Vigilante (Excluding police), such as V, Zorro, Robin Hood, Daredevil, and Batman.
What about Pie-Man? (www.animatedtv.about.com/library/graphics/eppieman.jpg)

Anyone who thinks we shouldn't have freedom of speech, that no one should criticize the government are the ones we need to get rid of. Those kids need a rude awakening about what America is supposed to stand for.
Are you... agreeing with me or something? Wait... more importantly, did someone just notice one of my posts?!

Have you ever considered that you are wrong and they are right? You are displaying the symptoms which many crazy people exhibit, namely their faith that "I'm not crazy, it's all of you who are crazy!" If liberals such as yourself want to aid terrorists, so be it. The rest of your class won't allow themselves to be dragged down with you.


I may be a Liberal, but at least I'm sane. o_0

Are you... agreeing with me or something? Wait... more importantly, did someone just notice one of my posts?!

Sure, agreement! What's wrong with having daydreams about kicking out all the Bill O'Reilly's of America? It could be the Republican "Trail of Tears" as we forcibly lead them to the border and give a big heave...

Then I remember that the 1st amendment means they can say whatever they want no matter how stupid.

I may be a Liberal, but at least I'm sane. o_0

I'm certainly not insinuating that you are insane -- I am just stating that people like yourself display classic symptoms which are also exhibited by insane people who refuse to believe that they are crazy.

Sure, agreement! What's wrong with having daydreams about kicking out all the Bill O'Reilly's of America? It could be the Republican "Trail of Tears" as we forcibly lead them to the border and give a big heave...

Then I remember that the 1st amendment means they can say whatever they want no matter how stupid.
Exactly. I was just saying that if anyone were deserving to be kicked out, it would be them. Because they pose a threat to the rest.

I'm certainly not insinuating that you are insane -- I am just stating that people like yourself display classic symptoms which are also exhibited by insane people who refuse to believe that they are crazy.
You also display syptoms exhibited by the isane, y'know?

You also display syptoms exhibited by the isane, y'know?

Would you care to expound upon that?

How does anyone actually know if they are sane ?

Would you care to expound upon that?
BAHAHAHAHAHA.
Extreme paranoia, for starters...

she would not like if she bering tortured

BAHAHAHAHAHA.
Extreme paranoia, for starters...

Whom do I believe is out to get me?

I'm certainly not insinuating that you are insane -- I am just stating that people like yourself display classic symptoms which are also exhibited by insane people who refuse to believe that they are crazy.

I know you are insane: You condone Genocide, suggest Slavery should be legal, and believe that killing Native Americans was good to bring them European Culture, as you once told me. I quote "Aren't you glad that the Europeans brought technology to your culture? If they hadn't, you would still be hunting with bows and arrows in the forest."


'Nuff said. You sir, are insane.

Would you care to expound upon that?

A continued belief in the idea you've won an arguement in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

Reposting similar threads only to get your arse handed to you again? I heard the repeating the same act over and over but expecting different results was a classic symptom of insanity.

Have you ever considered that you are wrong and they are right? You are displaying the symptoms which many crazy people exhibit, namely their faith that "I'm not crazy, it's all of you who are crazy!" If liberals such as yourself want to aid terrorists, so be it. The rest of your class won't allow themselves to be dragged down with you.

I could say you are insane but you are not. You are simply manipulative, twisting things around to suit your agenda. Suddenly wanting to protect the rights of the people who are ACCUSED terrorists is somehow "aiding" them. Well, yeah, I guess instead of letting the government grab people and shoot them we are "aiding" them. It is a shame that people like you see the allowances being made in the name of "safety" all the while losing what we are supposively fighting to keep. It is people like you who are letting the terrorists win, everytime you accept a trim in our civil liberties. Perhaps you are just blind, I don't know. But we will never be totally safe anyway and even if we could be if we must give up what makes our country great to acheive it then it is definately not worth it.

A quart short for an oil change ?



:) J/K


Although the slavery thread had me wondering how you can type wearing a straight jacket ...:D


really that was some nuts stuff .

I think I may have figured out why I interpret certain paragraphs in the MCA differently than some of you. I honestly doubt any of you have the mind of a monster.

I think I may have figured out why I interpret certain paragraphs in the MCA differently than some of you. I honestly doubt any of you have the mind of a monster.

ROFLMAO!

I was in Government Class a few days ago. My class was discussing the Torture Bill, and whether we believed it was right or not. My teacher had us stand in various corners of the room, to show our standpoint from: Totally Wrong, Kinda Wrong, Not Sure, Why not?, and Absolutely Needs to Be Done.

When we divided ourselves up, I was the only person in the "Totally Wrong" section. Everyone else, without exception, was in the Absolutely Needs to Be Done. When asked why they believed this, one girl, of voting age, responded:

"We are at war! We can't take any risks that the terrorists might be able to hide information from us. If torture is the best way to get it out of them, lets do it! Its not like Americans are being tortured anyway, but if they were terrorists too, they deserve it!" Those words will be burned in my memory forever.

"Its not like Americans are being tortured anyway, but if they were terrorists too, they deserve it!"


When asked why I stood alone, and didn't relent, I replied, "Don't you all see what's happening? What our country is coming to? The country that is supposed to be the beacon of freedom, justice, and moral treatment, torturing a prisoner? How can that be justified ever! I believe the Constitution says that there shall be no cruel and unusual punishment."

Then another girl responded, "If you don't like it, then leave!" Everyone nodded. "Our Government is doing what needs to be done. If you Liberals don't like it, tough! You don't deserve freedom!"

.....Why can they not see it? Usually, everyone follows my beliefs on matters. But this time.....its like they are zombies. They parrot what Bush and Rice say on TV. It is like all rationality has gone.

I fear for whats happening. I truly do. These are the new generation of voters. If more young people feel this way, and over a hundred who were asked did, then I pray for this country, because our days as a free nation are numbered.

I woulda called them all stupid bitches who deserved to get raped because it "needs to be done." God, stupid people piss me off. Stupid fucking goose-stepping brownshirts who don't know jack shit about what freedom means, or anything about history for that matter, piss me off even more.

I guess you fared better than I in that case.

But the country will not.

I woulda called them all stupid bitches who deserved to get raped because it "needs to be done." God, stupid people piss me off. Stupid fucking goose-stepping brownshirts who don't know jack shit about what freedom means, or anything about history for that matter, piss me off even more.

I guess you fared better than I in that case.

But the country will not.

I'm guessing now wouldn't be a good time to start a debate about smoking :D

I'm guessing now wouldn't be a good time to start a debate about smoking :D

Well, I'm a bit more cool and collected about that one - it's not really a major issue in the grand scheme of things. If they criminalize smoking, I'll just become one of probably about 60 million criminals.

But it would be a threadjack. :p

I'm certainly not insinuating that you are insane -- I am just stating that people like yourself display classic symptoms which are also exhibited by insane people who refuse to believe that they are crazy.

You mean like your desire to revive slavery with stupid people being enslaved?

Talk to me when you're a slave.

Unless you're the altruist activist type, you're better off moving to Canada just to stay away from these Cons.

I'm certainly not insinuating that you are insane -- I am just stating that people like yourself display classic symptoms which are also exhibited by insane people who refuse to believe that they are crazy.

And now we have the "yossarian situation"

If 1 man who was sane was in a room with 25 people who were identically insane(same psychosis/pathology) wouldn't the insane people believe the sane man to be insane?

Would you care to expound upon that?
Have you ever considered you are wrong and everyone else is right?

Have you ever considered that you are wrong and they are right? You are displaying the symptoms which many crazy people exhibit, namely their faith that "I'm not crazy, it's all of you who are crazy!" If liberals such as yourself want to aid terrorists, so be it. The rest of your class won't allow themselves to be dragged down with you.Hey MTAE. I see you disagree with New Naliitr. :p Cool. TG me, I want to know more...

Hey MTAE. I see you disagree with New Naliitr. :p Cool. TG me, I want to know more...

Same here, I want in on this scheme.

Have you ever considered that you are wrong and they are right? You are displaying the symptoms which many crazy people exhibit, namely their faith that "I'm not crazy, it's all of you who are crazy!" If liberals such as yourself want to aid terrorists, so be it. The rest of your class won't allow themselves to be dragged down with you.

I did. However, when all the other people refuse to or simply cannot back their viewpoint up with reasoning one is in my opinion justified to question them.
After all, the majority is often wrong.

Yeah. Like about slavery. The majority once backed that. But I guess that won't help when talking to MTAE.

Wanderjar, come down to california. People are just as stupid down here, but at least they are on the right side of the spectrum with their idiocy(voting for a good thing is good, no matter what reasons... Yes, voting against bush because you think he is the next hitler is a good reason!)

How for fuck's sake can you be all for this bill? Unless of course you like how it sounds. What is to stop the government from wrongfully accusing or accidently accusing a person of being a terrorist or such? What if you were labeled as a terrorist or hell even maybe worse, put on a terrorist watch list? I listened to a story (NPR) about one man who lives in Canada and was put on a watch list by Canada because he was Arabic of Palistinian or such. Obviously he lost his job almost instantly and had no way to feed his wife and two kids. Canada handed him over to the US which-as you can guess-torchured him into confessing he was a terrorist. Later in a trial it was found that he was infact Not a terrorist but only coerced into saying he was. Even after his name has been cleared in court neither the US or Canada is apologizing to him in anyway and this computer engineer still can't find a job to support his family after being put on a 'watch list'.

Woo War on Terror!! If They are terrorists let'em have it! I don't care who told us or what makes them a terrorist. They're Arab/Muslim.. put em on the list and torchure them! I dont give a crap if they are totally innocent peace loving Americans; if we can make them confess we're doing our job to stay safe. And if they were innocent by such a degree a Chimpanzee couldn't have told you otherwise, Tough! it's the price for freedom! Those damned Arabic Muslims! Let's go ahead and nuke Mecca oh yeah that would be good. Then every Muslim (now of course ALL Muslims are Arabs, durr!) would know that we are teh free and teh brave and the champions of freedom! Oh yes that would be the day.

There should be a Law against Stupid...

A bit of torture is necessary sometimes unfortunately, and the terrorists who are willing to kill and maim innocent people, pretty much deserve all we can think of.
This could be happening right now for instance, some arab is happily walking into a heavily populated part of some city, with a backpack full of sarin, meanwhile one of his arab friends is being held under heavy suspicion of having alot to do with the other arab, who authoritys are desperately trying to locate before he dumps his deadly cargo into various airconditioning systems in the targeted area.
Unfortunately the police dont get the info in time because all they are allowed to do is yell at the arab in custody.

Meanwhile hundreds of people start to convulse heavily on the ground, women, children, babies. Within five agony filled minutes they are dead from complete respirtory breakdown.
Would you like to be one of these people?
In case you hadn't worked it out yet, you are in a war that targets everyone, and if a little torture used to stop these bastards makes you feel squemish and self righteous, then perhaps the sight of a friend or family member dying in agony in front of you from an act of terrorism that could have been easily prevented, may make you realise whats more important.

Oh, let me extrapolate (ooo big word :p ) I was just ranting out my dissentment for the violent blind justice that so many are trying to put through. You know what, and it actually makes me laugh to think about it, I bet you if you showed what they actually did to accused terrorists durring torchure to that girl (& anyone supporting the bill for that matter) holy shit, there would be such a state of uproar over this bill.

Really it's bad. I had a teacher last year who was in the Marines for 7 years who would tell stories to the class about some of the things he saw.

Lol what the US Political scene needs is a full torchure video uploaded on youtube.

Bur seriously, my main point is that it is so easy to think torchure on such shaky grounds is acceptable in the name of freedom because to the person hearing it, it is nothing more than a word. But when you witness what is being done and the reality of it all...that is when you open your eyes.

Heh, Wanderjar you should tell your teacher to get her hands on some real torchure videos. I hear the Russians have a ton if you can get'em.

Bur seriously, my main point is that it is so easy to think torchure on such shaky grounds is acceptable in the name of freedom because to the person hearing it, it is nothing more than a word. But when you witness what is being done and the reality of it all...that is when you open your eyes.


Maybe when you witness some people being blown up by some arab fuckwit, you will open yours.

Yeah. The worst part of it all is that the people won't vote the bastards out of office! We should, in the US, be voting against Republicans AND Democrats. We should elect someone else:

Libertarians, Socialists, Communists, Greens, hell, I don't care! Someone but those other jackasses. They've proven they suck. They've shown that over the past 100 years! We need to give someone else a shot! (Except the bloody Neo-Nazis. They can go to hell.)

I love ya, man.

Seriously, though, I agree with you completely. It's utterly horrifying that that happened. I had to deal with the same kind of shit in my classes at school, as much as I tried to convince everyone otherwise. 'Course, I had to deal with master Silvertongue, aka Mr. Brown(whom we all called Browner) neo conservative jackass who actually managed to even turn ME into a neo-con drone for a short time till I returned to NS and managed to get rid of it in a hurry. (Though it wasn't immediate. I'm sure that at least some of you remember me insulting liberals when I first came here.)

But Browner does have some uses, like being smart enough to get everyone into his classroom when Duane Morrison stormed Platte Canyon.

As for who to vote into office...lemme have a shot. At something small, like county seat, maybe. I think I might be half-way decent.

I was in Government Class a few days ago. My class was discussing the Torture Bill, and whether we believed it was right or not. My teacher had us stand in various corners of the room, to show our standpoint from: Totally Wrong, Kinda Wrong, Not Sure, Why not?, and Absolutely Needs to Be Done.

When we divided ourselves up, I was the only person in the "Totally Wrong" section. Everyone else, without exception, was in the Absolutely Needs to Be Done. When asked why they believed this, one girl, of voting age, responded:

"We are at war! We can't take any risks that the terrorists might be able to hide information from us. If torture is the best way to get it out of them, lets do it! Its not like Americans are being tortured anyway, but if they were terrorists too, they deserve it!" Those words will be burned in my memory forever.

"Its not like Americans are being tortured anyway, but if they were terrorists too, they deserve it!"


When asked why I stood alone, and didn't relent, I replied, "Don't you all see what's happening? What our country is coming to? The country that is supposed to be the beacon of freedom, justice, and moral treatment, torturing a prisoner? How can that be justified ever! I believe the Constitution says that there shall be no cruel and unusual punishment."

Then another girl responded, "If you don't like it, then leave!" Everyone nodded. "Our Government is doing what needs to be done. If you Liberals don't like it, tough! You don't deserve freedom!"

.....Why can they not see it? Usually, everyone follows my beliefs on matters. But this time.....its like they are zombies. They parrot what Bush and Rice say on TV. It is like all rationality has gone.

I fear for whats happening. I truly do. These are the new generation of voters. If more young people feel this way, and over a hundred who were asked did, then I pray for this country, because our days as a free nation are numbered.

Wow when I'm in a situation like that I just feel like killing everyone....

I love ya, man.

Seriously, though, I agree with you completely. It's utterly horrifying that that happened. I had to deal with the same kind of shit in my classes at school, as much as I tried to convince everyone otherwise. 'Course, I had to deal with master Silvertongue, aka Mr. Brown(whom we all called Browner) neo conservative jackass who actually managed to even turn ME into a neo-con drone for a short time till I returned to NS and managed to get rid of it in a hurry. (Though it wasn't immediate. I'm sure that at least some of you remember me insulting liberals when I first came here.)

But Browner does have some uses, like being smart enough to get everyone into his classroom when Duane Morrison stormed Platte Canyon.

As for who to vote into office...lemme have a shot. At something small, like county seat, maybe. I think I might be half-way decent.

The neocons have got their hold.

PREPARE THE SPACE CRUISERS! WE MUST PREPARE TO GO TO A NEW PLANET AND START AGAIN!

I was in Government Class a few days ago. My class was discussing the Torture Bill, and whether we believed it was right or not. My teacher had us stand in various corners of the room, to show our standpoint from: Totally Wrong, Kinda Wrong, Not Sure, Why not?, and Absolutely Needs to Be Done.

When we divided ourselves up, I was the only person in the "Totally Wrong" section. Everyone else, without exception, was in the Absolutely Needs to Be Done. When asked why they believed this, one girl, of voting age, responded:

"We are at war! We can't take any risks that the terrorists might be able to hide information from us. If torture is the best way to get it out of them, lets do it! Its not like Americans are being tortured anyway, but if they were terrorists too, they deserve it!" Those words will be burned in my memory forever.

"Its not like Americans are being tortured anyway, but if they were terrorists too, they deserve it!"


When asked why I stood alone, and didn't relent, I replied, "Don't you all see what's happening? What our country is coming to? The country that is supposed to be the beacon of freedom, justice, and moral treatment, torturing a prisoner? How can that be justified ever! I believe the Constitution says that there shall be no cruel and unusual punishment."

Then another girl responded, "If you don't like it, then leave!" Everyone nodded. "Our Government is doing what needs to be done. If you Liberals don't like it, tough! You don't deserve freedom!"

.....Why can they not see it? Usually, everyone follows my beliefs on matters. But this time.....its like they are zombies. They parrot what Bush and Rice say on TV. It is like all rationality has gone.

I fear for whats happening. I truly do. These are the new generation of voters. If more young people feel this way, and over a hundred who were asked did, then I pray for this country, because our days as a free nation are numbered.
Those sorts of people thoroughly and deeply disgust me. They have become un-American.

It's amazing how much alike the US and Orwell's dystopia are. :eek:

Next thing you know there will be the Party with execution chambers for anyone who commits a thoughtcrime, and a Junior Anti-Sex League. :(

And the even sadder thing is, my county is the same way. Yes, torture is totally justifiable in America, but we can't have a gay/straight alliance in the highs school because gayness is just plain icky and totally unAmerican! :rolleyes:

Whoa, that sounds pretty bad. At this point, I'm begining to think that it might actually be a good idea to do as they say and leave the US. It's a sad day when even the average people are so unrepentently for torture. You expect me to lay down my life for the US? Why the hell should I feel patriotic in a nation that so enthusiastically embraces torture?

Those sorts of people thoroughly and deeply disgust me. They have become un-American.

Hey, the "ends justify the means" crowd seems to be quite popular. Believing whatever Bush and his cronies say is easier then actually thinking for yourself anyway.





Man, I went by 7,000 posts without even knowing. :(

It is people like you who are letting the terrorists win, everytime you accept a trim in our civil liberties.

That's funny, because I didn't the the item "enact measures which will allow for the defeat of international terrorism" on the list of demands of the terrorists. I didn't see "pass laws so you can defend yourself against us" on there, either. Every time we don't trim civil liberties, we are allowing the terrorist to win because we'll be making their task easier. If that's not aiding terrorism, I don't know what is.

That's funny, because I didn't the the item "enact measures which will allow for the defeat of international terrorism" on the list of demands of the terrorists. I didn't see "pass laws so you can defend yourself against us" on there, either. Every time we don't trim civil liberties, we are allowing the terrorist to win because we'll be making their task easier. If that's not aiding terrorism, I don't know what is.

Nope, but Bush tells us that the terrorists hate freedom so by passing these laws that hurt freedom we are doing exactly what the terrorists want us to do.

Nope, but Bush tells us that the terrorists hate freedom so by passing these laws that hurt freedom we are doing exactly what the terrorists want us to do.

Exactly.

Ach... why not try and get your point across by showing them real cases where the US has got it wrong and people have been tortured and then released, and gagged to the highest.

That might change things.

two ex-detainees were suppose to come to my collage for a talk, but they missed thier plane.

to ex-detainees were suppose to come to my collage, but they missed thier plane.

Any takers on a conspiracy?

Perhaps they were told not to come?

Any takers on a conspiracy?

Perhaps they were told not to come?

they sent a letter saying sorry and they would come over to debate islam(i dont know what that means). they were supose to be at a debate about bush. i'm assuming they are goint to say something like this, "sure the food sucked, but i didnt mind being torrtured, so they know if a terrorist or not. freedom is freedom".

It's amazing how much alike the US and Orwell's dystopia are. :eek:

Next thing you know there will be the Party with execution chambers for anyone who commits a thoughtcrime, and a Junior Anti-Sex League. :(

And the even sadder thing is, my county is the same way. Yes, torture is totally justifiable in America, but we can't have a gay/straight alliance in the highs school because gayness is just plain icky and totally unAmerican! :rolleyes:

While I can't say much about the extremity of the exagerrations made here on NSG (they are quite the norm, why even bother combatting them?), I can say that my school did indeed have a gay straight alliance.

While I can't say much about the extremity of the exagerrations made here on NSG (they are quite the norm, why even bother combatting them?), I can say that my school did indeed have a gay straight alliance.

You're from Florida too eh?

We certainly do live in interesting times... :(