NationStates Jolt Archive


No Criticism for You!

The Aeson
21-10-2006, 16:26
Or at least none for Steve Howards, who was apparentally arrested for approaching Cheney in a public mall and telling him what he thought of the war in Iraq.

teve Howards says he used to fantasize about what he’d say to President Bush or Vice President Cheney if he ever got the chance.

That opportunity arrived on June 16, the same day he says he read about U.S. fatalities in Iraq reaching 2,500.

“Initially, I walked past him. Then I said to myself, ‘I can’t in good conscience let this opportunity pass by.’ So I approached him, I got about two feet away, and I said in a very calm tone of voice, ‘Your policies in Iraq are reprehensible.’”Howards says he was taking two of his kids to their Suzuki piano camp in Beaver Creek, Colorado. They were walking across the outdoor public mall area when all of a sudden he saw Cheney there.

“I didn’t even know he was in town,” Howards says. “He was walking through the area shaking hands. Initially, I walked past him. Then I said to myself, ‘I can’t in good conscience let this opportunity pass by.’ So I approached him, I got about two feet away, and I said in a very calm tone of voice, ‘Your policies in Iraq are reprehensible.’ And then I walked away.”

Howards says he knew the Administration has a “history of making problems” for people who protest its policies, so he wanted to leave off at that.

But the Secret Service did not take kindly to his comment.“About ten minutes later, I came back through the mall with my eight-year-old son in tow,” Howards recalls, “and this Secret Service man came out of the shadows, and his exact words were, ‘Did you assault the Vice President?’ ”

Here’s how Howards says he responded: “No, but I did tell Mr. Cheney the way I felt about the war in Iraq, and if Mr. Cheney wants to be shielded from public criticism, he should avoid public places. If exercising my constitutional rights to free speech is against the law, then you should arrest me.”

Which is just what the agent, Virgil D. “Gus” Reichle Jr, proceeded to do.

“He grabbed me and cuffed my hands behind my back in the presence of my eight-year-old son and told me I was being charged with assault of the Vice President,”Howards recalls.

He says he told the agent, “I can’t abandon my eight-year-old son in a public mall.”

According to Howards, Reichle responded: “We’ll call Social Services.” Before that could happen, however, “my son ran away and found my wife,” who was nearby, Howards says.

“First of all, I was scared,” Howard recalls. “They wouldn’t tell my wife where they were taking me. Second of all, I was incredulous this could be happening in the United States of America. This is what I read about happening in Tiananmen Square. They hauled me away to Eagle County jail and kept me with my hands cuffed behind my back for three hours.”

At the jail, the charge against him was reduced to harassment, he says, and he was released on $500 bond. The Eagle County DA’s office eventually dropped that charge.

On October 3, Howards sued Reichle for depriving him of his First Amendment right of free speech and his Fourth Amendment right to be protected from illegal seizure.

Howards and his attorney, David Lane, have not demanded a specific dollar amount.

“We will go to trial and let a Colorado jury decide what type of damages are appropriate,” says Howards. “This isn’t about anything I did. This about what I said. There is a frontal assault occurring on our constitutional right to free speech. We brought this suit because of our belief that this Administration’s attempt to suppress free speech is a greater threat to the long-term integrity of this nation than ten Osama bin Ladens.”

Reichle did not return my call for comment. Nor did he respond to The New York Times in its article on this incident.

Lon Garner, special agent in charge at the Secret Service’s Denver office, says he has “no reaction” to the lawsuit. “It’s in litigation,” he says. “We have no comment.”

Before his encounter with Cheney, Howards says he had a clean record.

“I was never arrested before,” he says. “I don’t have so much as a speeding ticket.”



Just remember, you have a right to the freedom of speech. Just not around important people.

http://www.progressive.org/mag_mc100406?cheney

Links to different sources on this as I find them.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5039230,00.html

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001677.php

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2006/10/03/473/90365

Oh, and here's a link to the complaint...

http://www.talkleft.com/howardscomplaint.pdf
Similization
21-10-2006, 17:02
Fucked up, but not the least bit surprising.
Pyotr
21-10-2006, 17:05
Jesus, the classic "what has this country come to" story. Heres a hint to the Bush Admin. If you don't want to be seen as isolated from the american people, try not arresting the american people when they talk to you.
New Naliitr
21-10-2006, 17:10
Got ya Benedict Arnold masks 'ere! Get 'em while they' hot!
Southeastasia
21-10-2006, 17:33
I concur with Pyotr. That was freedom of speech not indecent assault. Unbelievable.....
The Aeson
21-10-2006, 17:38
Got ya Benedict Arnold masks 'ere! Get 'em while they' hot!

Somehow I think that someone who didn't betray their revolutionary comrades to the enemy might be a better idea...
Not bad
21-10-2006, 17:53
Somehow I think that someone who didn't betray their revolutionary comrades to the enemy might be a better idea...

Depends upon which side wins I think. That's what Benedict Arnold was thinking too I reckon, only he bet on the wrong pony.

Anyway most people here probably read the OP and thought something like "OMG they cant do that!" or "Typical Bush Cheney behavior" or even "Come the revolution Cheney and his secret service will get to know what assault really is!"

I however am not like most people apparantly. My first thought was "Suzuki piano camp in Beaver Creek? Suzuki piano camp in Beaver Creek!!!!. That phrase is absolutely pregneant with comedy potential that is going completely unused and unusable in this sad little news item.
Heikoku
21-10-2006, 17:57
That's appalling, absurd, unacceptable, wronger than anything.

But OTHER people didn't ALSO approach Cheney in the mall? o_O
Pyotr
21-10-2006, 18:01
That's appalling, absurd, unacceptable, wronger than anything.

But OTHER people didn't ALSO approach Cheney in the mall? o_O

They probably saw the Secret Service agents follow that guy out and didn't feel like getting arrested...
Ifreann
21-10-2006, 18:03
Kinda makes you wonder what would have happened if he actually tried to assault Cheney. I'm thinking he would have been shot in the face. Or whatever side of his head happened to be facing the first Secret Serviceman to draw his weapon.
Icovir
21-10-2006, 18:05
Fucked up, but not the least bit surprising.

I agree. To who does this come to as a surprise, really?
New Naliitr
21-10-2006, 18:12
Somehow I think that someone who didn't betray their revolutionary comrades to the enemy might be a better idea...

The point is is that he betrayed America, which soon enough the New Brothers of Liberty will be fighting. So he'd make a good figure head. That is if people are one-dimensional idiots. If they aren't George Washington would be good, because all GWB and his lackies have done is corrupt the original, pure idea of America. America in the beginning is like a dictator in the beginning. They absolutely postively have the people in mind, but once they get a taste of power it all goes to hell. So it's Benedict Arnold since most people are one-dimensional idiots.
Seangoli
21-10-2006, 18:23
The point is is that he betrayed America, which soon enough the New Brothers of Liberty will be fighting. So he'd make a good figure head. That is if people are one-dimensional idiots. If they aren't George Washington would be good, because all GWB and his lackies have done is corrupt the original, pure idea of America. America in the beginning is like a dictator in the beginning. They absolutely postively have the people in mind, but once they get a taste of power it all goes to hell. So it's Benedict Arnold since most people are one-dimensional idiots.

To quote the show Scrubs:

*sings*

"Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong... wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong! You're wrong!"

The revolutionary leaders did not have the people in mind when declaring independence, when supporting the revolutionary war, or when writing the Constitution. They used "freedom" and other such terms to gain public appeal. In actuality, the "Fathers of the US" were pretty much in it for personal gains, more or less. "The people" were pretty much an afterthought. Infact, in the beginning, the only actual part of the Government "the people" had any say, whatsoever, in was the House. And even that was a fairly limited field of voters(White male landowners). So, to quote again:

"You're wrong!"
Icovir
21-10-2006, 18:29
To quote the show Scrubs:

*sings*

"Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong... wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong! You're wrong!"

The revolutionary leaders did not have the people in mind when declaring independence, when supporting the revolutionary war, or when writing the Constitution. They used "freedom" and other such terms to gain public appeal. In actuality, the "Fathers of the US" were pretty much in it for personal gains, more or less. "The people" were pretty much an afterthought. Infact, in the beginning, the only actual part of the Government "the people" had any say, whatsoever, in was the House. And even that was a fairly limited field of voters(White male landowners). So, to quote again:

"You're wrong!"


Really, though, who the hell cares about the Founding Fathers? What matters is how America is NOW, and what the government cares about NOW.

It wouldn't matter if the Founding Fathers didn't care about the people. They still gave us rights anyways, even if it was for their "personal gain" (which you seemto believe).

I bet you're one of those people who believe the 9/11 conspiracy theories...
Seangoli
21-10-2006, 18:49
Really, though, who the hell cares about the Founding Fathers? What matters is how America is NOW, and what the government cares about NOW.

It wouldn't matter if the Founding Fathers didn't care about the people. They still gave us rights anyways, even if it was for their "personal gain" (which you seemto believe).

I bet you're one of those people who believe the 9/11 conspiracy theories...

Well, the only reason why we have a Bill of Rights was because many of the Southern States wouldn't sign the Constitution, as they wanted home rule back the most, and a strong national government would impede "state rights". Also, it was hard to sell to the people, as the system set up appeared fairly similar to that of Britain, from which they just gained independance from. So, the Bill of Rights was pretty much a propaganda tool at the time it was written, to pass the Constitution.

Many of the most influential "founding fathers" were merchants, who were pissed off at Britain for taxes and tariffs cutting into profit. Federalists, mostly from the North, wanted a strong national government because it would best benefit them. The anti-Federalists wanted a less powerful government(and guarenteed rights) because it would best benefit them. If you were to read the original wording of the Constitution, it is very undemocratic. The Senate was chosen by the State Legislature, not elected. The President and Vice President were chosen by electoral college, and if no one candidate got a majority of the votes, it would then go to the House to choose. Basically, the people had very little say over anything, at all.

And it doesn't matter if the founding fathers cared or not about rights(most of them didn't)-it matters that it was written, and thus it is.

9/11 conspiracy theories? Such as?
Dobbsworld
21-10-2006, 18:57
Unbelievable.....

If only it were. If only it were...
Icovir
21-10-2006, 19:00
Even if the founding fathers didn't care about the people, but rather money, later presidents actually did care about the people (hence ammedmants to the constitution).

I doubt you could say that Lincoln (for example) didn't care about the people, but rather money. Slavery was the easiest way to get money, but he still abolished it (through civil war, too).

My point is is that just because the F.Fs didn't care about us doesn't mean that later presidents were the same (and since we have a free country, those later presidents could actually change the state of things, making it better for the people).

9/11 Conspiracies such as...?

All of 'em.
LazyOtaku
21-10-2006, 19:15
All of 'em.

I think that this is what really happened:

http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/2472/wtctetriset2.gif
Icovir
21-10-2006, 19:16
I think that this is what really happened:

http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/2472/wtctetriset2.gif

It's so wrong, yet sooo funny :D
Seangoli
21-10-2006, 19:18
Even if the founding fathers didn't care about the people, but rather money, later presidents actually did care about the people (hence ammedmants to the constitution).

Congress ratifies amendments...


I doubt you could say that Lincoln (for example) didn't care about the people, but rather money. Slavery was the easiest way to get money, but he still abolished it (through civil war, too).

Uh, well, I guess I get to keep on talking. You see, the Civil War was not about Emancipation of the slaves. It was about unifying the country again. The South seceeded from the Union due to fears that any Republican President would outlaw slavery, and since that was the big part of the South's economy, obviously they didn't want it. Lincoln would have gladly allowed slavery if meant keeping the Union intact. If it had been about "freeing the slaves", would you not think that the Emancipation Proclamation would have been given when the War began, not two years after it started?

Basically, the Civil War was not about ending slavery-that was an effect and an afterthought, done to actually give an advantage to the North(Slaves uprising, and possibly fighting on the North's side).


My point is is that just because the F.Fs didn't care about us doesn't mean that later presidents were the same (and since we have a free country, those later presidents could actually change the state of things, making it better for the people).

Meh, there are almost always alterior motives as to what Presidents(and Congress for that matter) do. They may have a good effect, but the effect many times is not really the intention.


Man do I love History.


All of 'em.


Okay... specifically speaking?
Icovir
21-10-2006, 19:23
But the Civil War happened (like you said) because the south seceeded from the Union. But, that happened because the south knew that if Lincoln get's elected, he will try to abolish slavery.

Trust me, Licoln did NOT want a Civil War. After seeing that documentary on the History Channel, I would stay at that mindset.

Man do I love history.

We all do :)
Icovir
21-10-2006, 19:26
Okay... specifically speaking?

The one LazyOtaku posted :D

Nah, but seriously, I forget the name of it. But it's on the same theory that Maddox murderized and that had the "9/11 predicted on the dollar" crap.
Seangoli
21-10-2006, 19:29
But the Civil War happened (like you said) because the south seceeded from the Union. But, that happened because the south knew that if Lincoln get's elected, he will try to abolish slavery.

Trust me, Licoln did NOT want a Civil War. After seeing that documentary on the History Channel, I would stay at that mindset.



We all do :)

They thought he would, but they did not know. Lincoln would have much rather let the South have slavery than go to war. But the South really didn't give a damn, went to the good ol' days of Confederacy(Which failed the first time eighty years earlier-that didn't stop em).

But meh. Whatever, it happened, it's good, that's all that really matters. Guess I just like to bring up random, meaningless, and pointless arguments.:confused:
Icovir
21-10-2006, 19:31
Guess I just like to bring up random, meaningless, and pointless arguments.:confused:

That's the whole point of a messageboard.

Except you succeeded in summing it up into a sentence, I could never.
Seangoli
21-10-2006, 19:33
The one LazyOtaku posted :D

Hey, if you slow the tapes down real slow, you can actually see the "Level 99" in the top right corner. And as we all know in Tetris, you can't see the blocks moving, pretty much at all, at Level 99... I FIGURED IT OUT! The Game Industry was behind it... now all we need is a motive...


Nah, but seriously, I forget the name of it. But it's on the same theory that Maddox murderized and that had the "9/11 predicted on the dollar" crap.
Jesus, I remember hearing that one. Not sure of the specifics, but it was utter bunk.

I'm more along the lines of "negligent actions" than actual conspiracy. There is evidence that the people who were supposed to take care of issues such as this knew of this occurring long before the crashes(something like an hour, I think), and did nothing or did not take it seriously enough.

But hey, I'm a pessimist. Better than a Conspiracy nut.
Johnny B Goode
21-10-2006, 20:47
Or at least none for Steve Howards, who was apparentally arrested for approaching Cheney in a public mall and telling him what he thought of the war in Iraq.



Just remember, you have a right to the freedom of speech. Just not around important people.

http://www.progressive.org/mag_mc100406?cheney

Links to different sources on this as I find them.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5039230,00.html

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001677.php

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2006/10/03/473/90365

Oh, and here's a link to the complaint...

http://www.talkleft.com/howardscomplaint.pdf

WHAT THE FUCK!!!

My class has a trip to Washington, and I was thinking of throwing cheese at Bush for a while.

Un-fucking-believable.
Gauthier
21-10-2006, 20:48
Somehow I think that someone who didn't betray their revolutionary comrades to the enemy might be a better idea...

I've always said John Brown would be a great mask for an American V for Vendetta campaign.
Kyronea
21-10-2006, 20:59
Not surprising in the least. Still, even knowing what will happen, if I had a chance to do what that guy did, I'd do it too, as would moist of us, I believe.
Multiland
21-10-2006, 21:04
Now do all you skeptics believe there's something sinister going on? You gotta get rid of Bush NOW.
RockTheCasbah
21-10-2006, 21:10
The article mentioned Tianmien Square. Was this guy run over by a tank? No.

Was he locked up in a jail cell for days? No.

Was he beat over the head with a baton? No.

Did the Security guys go too far? Yes, probably.

There's no way you can say that OHNOES!!AMERIKKA IS TEH DICTATORSHIP!!!11 because of a minor incident like this.
Kyronea
21-10-2006, 21:16
The article mentioned Tianmien Square. Was this guy run over by a tank? No.

Was he locked up in a jail cell for days? No.

Was he beat over the head with a baton? No.

Did the Security guys go too far? Yes, probably.

There's no way you can say that OHNOES!!AMERIKKA IS TEH DICTATORSHIP!!!11 because of a minor incident like this.

Of course.

That said, it wasn't something that should have happened.
Liberal Yetis
21-10-2006, 21:20
That guy should have known not to approach the bear.
The Aeson
21-10-2006, 21:33
That guy should have known not to approach the bear.

Because god forbid anyone speak honestly to someone in power!!
Not bad
21-10-2006, 21:38
Now do all you skeptics believe there's something sinister going on? You gotta get rid of Bush NOW.


Jeez, you act as if this is a new thing with this administration.

http://192.80.61.73/WebVAX/other/Kelly13Dec95.html


William Kelly: That is not accurate, and it's certainly not the entire story. Back in July of '93 I was 27 years old. Bill Clinton had just been elected president. He had made a promise of a middle- class tax cut. I had heard that he was coming to Chicago for one of these so-called town meetings, so I decided to attend. I thought that I would go, in the spirit of the American town hall meeting and ask him about his broken campaign promise of a middle-class tax cut. I got there. You'll recall, this was pre-Republican revolution, this was '94. He was proposing the widest tax increase in American history at the time...

And I stood up and said, "Excuse me, Mr. President, but during the campaign you promised a middle-class tax CUT. Now you are proposing the largest tax increase in American history. What you need to do is abide by your original campaign promise of a middle-class tax CUT. Well, the president blew his stack, pounded the podium, turned red, chastised me, and a Secret Service agent came over to me at that point and said okay sir, you got to ask your question; would you mind leaving now? And I said, "Yes sir." I turned around as the president was lecturing my back. I was leaving the grand ballroom of the Sheraton Hotel - there were about 650 other people there, the national press corps.

I was behind the rope; I wasn't in any way threatening; I left the hotel unescorted. I thought the entire incident was behind me. I was not arrested. I was not in any way under the impression that I was in any kind of trouble. Three hours later, federal agents came to my home, knocked on the door and told me that I was under arrest. At that time I asked them what the charges were. They said that they had no charges but they were looking into it, and they guaranteed me that they would find something and that I was coming with them. They put me in handcuffs, brought me down to the metropolitan correctional center. I asked them if I could call my lawyer - they said no. And the following day, true to their word, they charged me with a federal crime.
Dobbsworld
21-10-2006, 21:38
That guy should have known not to approach the bear.

That "bear" will soon learn to have known better than to have tried mauling that human. They put those bears down, you see.
Dobbsworld
21-10-2006, 21:40
Jeez, you act as if this is a new thing with this administration.

http://192.80.61.73/WebVAX/other/Kelly13Dec95.html

That story you've linked to is about a different administration...
Not bad
21-10-2006, 21:50
That story you've linked to is about a different administration...

Yes. The thing is not new. It is older than this administration. It was new with some other administration (Im not sure which one) but it is not new with this one.
Fartsniffage
21-10-2006, 21:53
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4292342.stm

This kind of thing happens everywhere. People have this funny idea that we as the public have free speech, an incredibly naive idea.
Not bad
21-10-2006, 22:02
That "bear" will soon learn to have known better than to have tried mauling that human. They put those bears down, you see.

They have plenty of secret service agents and they have all sworn that they are expendable. These bear cubs can and do go down to protect the bear when the situation warrants. Physically and legally the big bears are insulated from the less powerful forest critters by the secret service cubs. Cheney will claim no knowlege of the arrest. The secret service will claim national security rights in protecting the VP. If it comes down to it because of media pressure or some desperate candidate in the election needing to make noise, then the head of some poor mid level bastard in the secret service will roll to placate the situation. And they will be nicer for a short time before they continue doing it just like they do now for Bush and his successor in the presidency no matter who he or she is.
New Naliitr
21-10-2006, 22:35
I've always said John Brown would be a great mask for an American V for Vendetta campaign.

Meh. I think the beard would get in the way.
New Naliitr
21-10-2006, 22:36
The article mentioned Tianmien Square. Was this guy run over by a tank? No.

Was he locked up in a jail cell for days? No.

Was he beat over the head with a baton? No.

Did the Security guys go too far? Yes, probably.

There's no way you can say that OHNOES!!AMERIKKA IS TEH DICTATORSHIP!!!11 because of a minor incident like this.

Dude. Read. The. Article.

Secret Service guy arrests a guy for excerising his freedom of speech. That's not minor.
Ifreann
21-10-2006, 22:50
I think that this is what really happened:

http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/2472/wtctetriset2.gif

Those look like Al-Qaeda blocks to me.