NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, the happy days continue in our adventure in Iraq as eight soldiers will be court-martialed for murder and two soliders will be charges with raping a 14 year old girl. Democracy on the march people!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15320226/

Interestingly it is the rape that has the death penalty charge.

Hmm 2 months of hard labour for them, like the people responsible for the other PsiOps stuff got, then?

NEWSFLASH: New scientific research provides amazing shock: Get enough people together and some of them will commit crimes!

NEWSFLASH: New scientific research provides amazing shock: Get enough people together and some of them will commit crimes!
Further study shows that those who are armed are more likely to commit crimes, due to their victims being unable to do anything about it.

Further study shows that those who are armed are more likely to commit crimes, due to their victims being unable to do anything about it.
They would be armed even in America, as I'm sure some of our more trigger happy posters would be happy to tell you.

NEWSFLASH: New scientific research provides amazing shock: Get enough people together and some of them will commit crimes!

I am quite interested in seeing if the Army will try to whitewash this whole thing. Can't let the terrorists win by suggesting there are bad apples in the United States military after all...

NEWSFLASH: New scientific research provides amazing shock: Get enough people together and some of them will commit crimes!

Further study also shows that if a bunch of people get together and they are led by an incompetent, arrogant moron they will commit more crimes and damage the image of the country they hail from beyond all repair.

I am quite interested in seeing if the Army will try to whitewash this whole thing. Can't let the terrorists win by suggesting there are bad apples in the United States military after all...
I don't think it helps to do things like that. No one is perfect, and the attempt to project an image of perfection does just lead to whitewashes, which leads to more bad feelings. I'm sure the Iraqi people would accept the 'there are bastards everywhere in the world' argument much more than 'nothing to see here people, move along now and don't ask questions.'

I am quite interested in seeing if the Army will try to whitewash this whole thing. Can't let the terrorists win by suggesting there are bad apples in the United States military after all...

No way. These guys are history.

REMINDER: Just because there are a few bad and corrupt people serving in the US Military does NOT mean that they are all bad and corrupt.

We have atleast (I say atleast since I believe these est. are from last year) 2,685,713 Total Troops. We have atleast 1,426,713 Active Troops. So, yes, there will be some bad mixed with the good.

I have said this many times......WE, THE USA AS A NATION, ARE NOT PERFECT! WE ARE, IN FACT, HUMANS!

As for the soldiers who committed these horrendous crimes, allow them to go through the Court Marshals and when they are found to be guilty, they will be punished.

As for the soldiers who committed these horrendous crimes, allow them to go through the Court Marshals and when they are found to be guilty, they will be punished.

I agree... Innocent until proven guilty - and I expect you will extend the same courtesy to suspected terrorists too? :)

I agree... Innocent until proven guilty - and I expect you will extend the same courtesy to suspected terrorists too? :)

Ha! I'll believe that when I see it.

Besides, if anything this kind of thing will happen more often what with the lowering of standards for joining the military.

The brass will face dishonorable discharge and token jail time.

The enlisted will fry.

Ha! I'll believe that when I see it.

Besides, if anything this kind of thing will happen more often what with the lowering of standards for joining the military.

(Me too ;) )

Indeed, and that's really the underlying issue: The standard of the armed services.

Haiditha serves as the worst example, because there you don't have to wait for the verdict on the individual soldiers to pass judgement on the actions of the marine core - what with the covering up / failure to investigate.

They would be armed even in America, as I'm sure some of our more trigger happy posters would be happy to tell you.
And the US has the largest amount of rape, and some of the highest for murder in the world.

And the US has the largest amount of rape, and some of the highest for murder in the world.

I wasn't defending gun use. I'm very much against it.

My point was that crimes are always going to be committed. Trying to link a small scale crime of an individual with a large scale crime of a Government is tenuous at best.

I wasn't defending gun use. I'm very much against it.

My point was that crimes are always going to be committed. Trying to link a small scale crime of an individual with a large scale crime of a Government is tenuous at best.
*sighs*

S'true.

And this stuff is always PsiOps stuff... "Yes, that's correct, the Iraqis, if you go against us, we'll come for you and shoot and rape your children" was the general idea to get across in this one methinks.

Seems to have worked, at least on us.

I am detecting more and more Vietnam-ness. Weren't there reports of soldiers in Vietnam raping local women?

And the US has the largest amount of rape, and some of the highest for murder in the world.

I hope you are smart enough to figure in the population size with these statistical suggestions.

I am detecting more and more Vietnam-ness. Weren't there reports of soldiers in Vietnam raping local women?
There are in every warzone.

War brings up a lot of testosterone due to the constant competition and danger.

Most men turn to their hands for a bit of relief, but if there's a woman around, they'll be preferred. And if said women are... 'non compliant', they might well get raped.

Obviously that was a generalisation, but it's still quite true.

I hope you are smart enough to figure in the population size with these statistical suggestions.
Damn right I am. Highest per capita, smartarse.

I hope you are smart enough to figure in the population size with these statistical suggestions.

Highest murder rate among the First World, industrialized countries. But hey, countries like Columbia, South Africa and Zimbabwe have higher murder rates then we do. :rolleyes:

Highest murder rate among the First World, industrialized countries. But hey, countries like Columbia, South Africa and Zimbabwe have higher murder rates then we do. :rolleyes:
And highest rape rate full stop.

The brass will face dishonorable discharge and token jail time.I hope not. They shouldn't get any time at all. At most they should maybe be demoted because their oversight was lax. What did they have to do with this? This was four guys who decided on their own and off duty to go rape and kill this girl and her family. That's like saying that if I decide to rape some girl I work with that my boss should do prison time. This is very different than the prison abuse where brass was actually giving orders or at the very least looking the other way. This was one incident that brass had absolutely nothing to do with.

The enlisted will fry.

They will and they should.

Damn right I am. Highest per capita, smartarse.

Just making sure....... ;)

And the US has the largest amount of rape, and some of the highest for murder in the world.

Source with per capita stats, please. It means nothing if you say the US has 10,000 rapes a year to Canada's 1,000 because the US has 300,000,000 people to Canada's 30,000,000 people.

Source with per capita stats, please. It means nothing if you say the US has 10,000 rapes a year to Canada's 1,000 because the US has 300,000,000 people to Canada's 30,000,000 people.

http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita#rest

According to this, Canada and Australia beat the U.S. out.

And highest rape rate full stop.

You also have to figure in what we define as rape. In many countries in the world, even in Europe, things that are prosecuted as rape here aren't defined as rape there. Age of consent, for example, is lower in most European countries and here if a 19 year old has sex with an 18 year old it's prosecuted as a rape, willing or no.

not sure how it got on, but some dude on dublin city council, wanted to bush on the wanted list. it would be gas if they tried to arrest him.

http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita#rest

According to this, Canada and Australia beat the U.S. out.

Also, spousal rape. Does any other country prosecute a husband for raping is wife? Then there's the culture of reporting it. Women here may report rape much more often than they do in other countries.

not sure how it got on, but some dude on dublin city council, wanted to bush on the wanted list. it would be gas if they tried to arrest him.

Mmm... Immunity of acting heads of state, how we love it.

Also, spousal rape. Does any other country prosecute a husband for raping is wife? Then there's the culture of reporting it. Women here may report rape much more often than they do in other countries.

Here's the source for murder.... It shows the top five you have to click on the line to show where the other countries stand.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

Well, it's good to know we have less murders per capital than
Colombia, South Africa, Jamaica, Venezuela, Russia, Mexico, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, New Guinea, Kyrgystan, Thailand, Moldova, Zimbabwe, Seychelles, Zambia, Costa Rica, Poland, Georgia, Uruguay and Bulgaria.

It's nice to know we have less per capita murders than practically bankrupt third world and post soviet nations.

Unfortunatly we're still beating out Armenia, India, yemen, Dominica, Zzerbaijan, Slovakia, Romania, Malaysia, Hungary, Macedonia, and Slovenia.

We're at 24 globally, the highest first world developed nation. Behind us is arguably portugal at 33, or france at 40. Australia is 43, canada 44, freaking CHILE is 45, and UK, italy, spain and germany are 46-49 respectively.

The brass will face dishonorable discharge and token jail time.

The enlisted will fry.
Well, for once what the enlisted did was worse by several magnitudes. For all the mistakes and errors of the US Military, I don't think: "Break into a house and rape and murder a child after making her watch you murder her entire family!" would be the order they got.

As usual, training was an issue, as usual, the US Military must be held responsible for the actions of the its personnel...but this is several levels above anything that "we were told to" could excuse!

You also have to figure in what we define as rape. In many countries in the world, even in Europe, things that are prosecuted as rape here aren't defined as rape there. Age of consent, for example, is lower in most European countries and here if a 19 year old has sex with an 18 year old it's prosecuted as a rape, willing or no.

Age of Consent in the US is 18 no?

I have a feeling such crimes would be factored out - they are not prosecuted as "Rape" but as "statutory Rape", which although it can land someine ing just as much shit it is not the same offence.

Thing is - Rape is a really crap measure of crime as it has a stupidly low report rate. In the west rape report rates are estimated at between 5% and 10%, making comparisons almost impossible as you have no idea how many rapes are actually happening with such a poor report rate.



ANYWAY: Back on topic - some peoiple are very right to say that out of this many soldiers you are bound to get some bad apples. I don't think this is the first time this has happened in Iraq, but it it one of the first times people have been caught for it. Given that if proven guilty these soldiers actions will have endangered the lives of every member of the armed forces in Iraq through increased mistrust of US soldiers I think they should be punished as harshly as possible, if convicted.

Well, the happy days continue in our adventure in Iraq as eight soldiers will be court-martialed for murder and two soliders will be charges with raping a 14 year old girl. Democracy on the march people!

Interestingly it is the rape that has the death penalty charge.

I think this time the US forces have the opportunity to show the Iraqis they're not behaving like the Nazis... let's hope the court will ponder this, the result of this trial will have a great political impact (good or bad for the US), whatever the result will be.

I know for sure that the US have to avoid what they did couple of weeks ago, when a former member of the Allawi cabinet (imposed by invasion forces), who had just been declared guilty by an Iraqi court, was "resecued" by US armed soldiers (in the very hall of the court) and given political refuge in the US embassy. What a bad PR move...

Also it is very strange to me that rape, and not murder, has death penalty.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

Gosh! We Mafialandians get less murders per capita than:
US (so I guess free guns aren't scaring killers a lot, are they?;) )
Finnland (I thought cold climate would calm down nerves!)
Mauritius (whaaaaat?)
France (I guess they have to beat us sometimes;) )
Czech Republic (whoa! how is that possible?)
Australia (how is supposed a killer to find his quarry with such a low population density?)
Canada (WHAAAAT????)
United Kingdom (so, drinking espresso instead of tea WON'T make you more aggressive...)

I think this rules out some stereotypes... and allows me to create NEW ones! (sorry, pals...)

Well, the happy days continue in our adventure in Iraq as eight soldiers will be court-martialed for murder and two soliders will be charges with raping a 14 year old girl. Democracy on the march people!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15320226/

Interestingly it is the rape that has the death penalty charge.

The most significant part of your link to MSNBC is that they use the expression "girl" . When the news of this subject was first released by Fux News and the rest of the American MSM they all referred to her as a woman . The rest of the world's press were referring to her as a "teenager" at the same time. Her very early years became quite obvious when her ID photo card was posted on the internet back in August - I've still got that picture but don't know how to fit it into the body of this text. Her D.O.B. confirmed her to have been only 14 years old when the incident occured. Even Aljazzera said she was 15 but that was the age she would have been when the news came out : http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=12397 The Chinese got her age right straight away : http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=20&art_id=24666&sid=9245043&con_type=1&d_str=20060810

Doubtless her 5 old sister who was murdered at the same time was acting in a manner causing the troups to consider her to be a clear and present danger - what a pack of ****'s.

It was a very long time before the US MSM stated her true age.

edit - found her picture here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abeer_Qasim_Hamza

"We're still being challenged in Iraq and the reason why is a free Iraq will be a major defeat in the cause of freedom." --George W. Bush, Charlotte, N.C., April 5, 2004

ANYWAY: Back on topic - some peoiple are very right to say that out of this many soldiers you are bound to get some bad apples. I don't think this is the first time this has happened in Iraq, but it it one of the first times people have been caught for it. Given that if proven guilty these soldiers actions will have endangered the lives of every member of the armed forces in Iraq through increased mistrust of US soldiers I think they should be punished as harshly as possible, if convicted.

The only way to get any credit for this in the Middle East would be to turn them over the Iraqis upon conviction for punishment. Though, that would barely help; the damage has already been done.

The only way to get any credit for this in the Middle East would be to turn them over the Iraqis upon conviction for punishment. Though, that would barely help; the damage has already been done.

Or have them be tried by an Iraqi court according to Iraqi law--but that'll never happen either.

Or have them be tried by an Iraqi court according to Iraqi law--but that'll never happen either.

I didn't suggest that because the chance of that happening is less than Jesus descending from the sky riding a purple pig with duck wings claiming the end was yesterday and we are just too stubborn to realise it.

The most significant part of your link to MSNBC is that they use the expression "girl" . When the news of this subject was first released by Fux News and the rest of the American MSM they all referred to her as a woman . The rest of the world's press were referring to her as a "teenager" at the same time. Her very early years became quite obvious when her ID photo card was posted on the internet back in August - I've still got that picture but don't know how to fit it into the body of this text. Her D.O.B. confirmed her to have been only 14 years old when the incident occured. Even Aljazzera said she was 15 but that was the age she would have been when the news came out : http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=12397 The Chinese got her age right straight away : http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=20&art_id=24666&sid=9245043&con_type=1&d_str=20060810

Doubtless her 5 old sister who was murdered at the same time was acting in a manner causing the troups to consider her to be a clear and present danger - what a pack of ****'s.

It was a very long time before the US MSM stated her true age.

edit - found her picture here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abeer_Qasim_Hamza

It is as I thought. The US military hardly wants this information getting out to the American public. Something like this may actually get people pissed off. Regular murder somehow isn't enough, but raping and killing a 14 year old will probably get Americans blood up.

*snip*
Also it is very strange to me that rape, and not murder, has death penalty.

It doesn't. That's a misunderstanding of the law. In a murder trial when sentencing is being considered they look at mitigating and aggravating factors. A mitigating factor would be like what happened with that lawyer who broke into that guy's house and stabbed him to death in his kitchen. See, his wife ahd just told him that their two year old daughter said things that sounded like the guy molested her and the guy was just an all around scumbag anyways - always fighting with his neighbors and getting drunk and passing out in other people's backyards and such, so they lawyer had had enough when he heard that and he killed the guy. Doesn't excuse the murder, but they will consider it a mitigating factor when they sentence the guy.

Aggravating factors are things like commiting the murder for the sake of raping someone. In this case, they murdered these people so that they could rape and then murder their daughter. That's an aggravating circumstance than makes the murder charge a capital offense. So it's not that the rape carries the death penalty, it's the fact that the murder was commited during and for the purposes of a rape that make the murder a capital offense. If there had been just the rape and no murders there would be no death penalty in this case.

It is as I thought. The US military hardly wants this information getting out to the American public. Something like this may actually get people pissed off. Regular murder somehow isn't enough, but raping and killing a 14 year old will probably get Americans blood up.

Yeah right. I doubt it. Nobody seems to care about Iraq anymore, let alone the Iraqi civilians. You know that today saw the highest death toll for US troops in Iraq for months, and that 70 US troops have been killed in Iraq this month? There's hardly anybody caring about that, it seems...

Yeah right. I doubt it. Nobody seems to care about Iraq anymore, let alone the Iraqi civilians. You know that today saw the highest death toll for US troops in Iraq for months, and that 70 US troops have been killed in Iraq this month? There's hardly anybody caring about that, it seems...

Are you kidding? Look at the poll I just posted in the Reps in trouble thread. the war is the first thing on everyone's mind and is the leading issue in this election and I amaware of no one who doesn't know about this incident and know that it included the rape and murder of a young girl. It's been front page everytime new news about it breaks. No one is burrying this story and everyone is talking about it - at least everyone who talks about anything political and since the peope who don't won't vote anyays that's fine.

Yeah right. I doubt it. Nobody seems to care about Iraq anymore, let alone the Iraqi civilians. You know that today saw the highest death toll for US troops in Iraq for months, and that 70 US troops have been killed in Iraq this month? There's hardly anybody caring about that, it seems...

People are probably believing Bush and his cronies when they say that things are getting better in Iraq. The increased violence means that the insurgents are getting desperate or some stupid shit like that. Not that they are simply effective, oh no. Our troops and Iraqis are dying and nothing is being done to change that. Simply "stay the course" which obviously is not working. Disgusting. And there is no public outrage. Your're right. Clearly the American public simply doesn't care as long as their lives aren't effected. Or maybe they are so jaded and simply don't want to hear about it.

It is as I thought. The US military hardly wants this information getting out to the American public. Something like this may actually get people pissed off. Regular murder somehow isn't enough, but raping and killing a 14 year old will probably get Americans blood up.

The majority of the american public are happy believe what they see on the MSM news. It's not the military who control the media - it's Dimson's Administration and the GOP in general.
If you want the truth then go outside to here for example and read the news from the rest of the world and then form your own judgements allowing forthe fact that some other countries control their media too : http://www.onlinenewspapers.com/ First time in scroll down and click on the cookie request to get access.
For documentary information on the real truth of some past events go here : http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/video_cover-ups.htm

NEWSFLASH: New scientific research provides amazing shock: Get enough people together and some of them will commit crimes!

But give them guns, no sense of purpose, and an ill-defined sense of superiority and they will commit atrocities.

People are probably believing Bush and his cronies when they say that things are getting better in Iraq. The increased violence means that the insurgents are getting desperate or some stupid shit like that. Not that they are simply effective, oh no. Our troops and Iraqis are dying and nothing is being done to change that. Simply "stay the course" which obviously is not working. Disgusting. And there is no public outrage. Your're right. Clearly the American public simply doesn't care as long as their lives aren't effected. Or maybe they are so jaded and simply don't want to hear about it.

That's simply not true. According to a poll I just posted in another thread, the question, "based on what you have seen happening in Iraq over the past month, do you feel more optimistic or more pessimistic about the way things are going in Iraq?"

More optimistic: 20
Less optimistic: 68
No difference: 9
Not sure: 3

Seems like those numbers are pretty convincing. People are not happy with the way things re going over there.

People are probably believing Bush and his cronies when they say that things are getting better in Iraq. The increased violence means that the insurgents are getting desperate or some stupid shit like that. Not that they are simply effective, oh no. Our troops and Iraqis are dying and nothing is being done to change that. Simply "stay the course" which obviously is not working. Disgusting. And there is no public outrage. Your're right. Clearly the American public simply doesn't care as long as their lives aren't effected. Or maybe they are so jaded and simply don't want to hear about it.

I believe the phrase was "the insurgency is in its last throes."

Or at least that was the phrase in June of 2005 when Dick Cheney coined it.

It is as I thought. The US military hardly wants this information getting out to the American public. Something like this may actually get people pissed off. Regular murder somehow isn't enough, but raping and killing a 14 year old will probably get Americans blood up.

Well, that's the way conservatives get angry about things.

"It's not that he cheated on his wife, it's that he lied about it."
"It's not that Kobe raped a girl. He was cheating on his wife."
"It's not that these soldiers raped a 14 year old. It's that they were having intercourse before marriage."
"It's not that the war has caused hundreds of thousands of deaths. It's that that some of those deaths were preceded by sex."

If you want to convict a suspect of stabbing someone to death in a conservative court, don't charge them with murder, charge them with attempting to make the 2nd amendment look obselete by showing people how good a job you can do killing someone without a gun.

Are you kidding? Look at the poll I just posted in the Reps in trouble thread. the war is the first thing on everyone's mind and is the leading issue in this election and I amaware of no one who doesn't know about this incident and know that it included the rape and murder of a young girl. It's been front page everytime new news about it breaks. No one is burrying this story and everyone is talking about it - at least everyone who talks about anything political and since the peope who don't won't vote anyays that's fine.
Oh they're talking about it - everybody knows it but they're not outraged. And it really doesn't seem like people care. Not about some Iraqi's anyway.

People seem to mind their own business and grumble under their breath, but I don't think we'll see anything being done before... Well, maybe on election day.

People are probably believing Bush and his cronies when they say that things are getting better in Iraq. The increased violence means that the insurgents are getting desperate or some stupid shit like that. Not that they are simply effective, oh no. Our troops and Iraqis are dying and nothing is being done to change that. Simply "stay the course" which obviously is not working. Disgusting. And there is no public outrage. Your're right. Clearly the American public simply doesn't care as long as their lives aren't effected. Or maybe they are so jaded and simply don't want to hear about it.
Indeed.

And oh how I hate how some people say you can't critizise because you have to "support the troops". Makes me furious that they don't see that it's possible to do both at once! *Shakes fist*

Oh they're talking about it - everybody knows it but they're not outraged. And it really doesn't seem like people care. Not about some Iraqi's anyway.

People seem to mind their own business and grumble under their breath, but I don't think we'll see anything being done before... Well, maybe on election day.

Which is a couple weeks away and, according to the polls, they plan to do something about it. Aside form "throwing the bums out," what would you have them do? People care. Everyone has an opinion on it. It's not in our nature to shove our opinions in everyone's face, but I guarentee if you go around asking people their opinions on the war you'll find almost no one that doesn't have a very strong opnion on it and they'll be expressing that opinion at the polls Nov. 7.

Oh they're talking about it - everybody knows it but they're not outraged. And it really doesn't seem like people care. Not about some Iraqi's anyway.

People seem to mind their own business and grumble under their breath, but I don't think we'll see anything being done before... Well, maybe on election day.

Exactly! People know about and want it to end but there is no public outcry. No one wants to demand for our government to do something different in how we are running the war. Perhaps though it is silent outrage, and on Election Day, the American people will vote that the Iraq war is not going fine at all. That a change is needed. Hopefully.

But I'm sure this case of these murdering, raping soldiers will fade from the publics memory. No one will remember and Bush can go right back to saying how noble we are helping those poor Iraqis. How we can do no wrong.

Question: Would such atrocities be less likely to occour with a much, much larger military force. Like, send in 1/2 a mill, kick the shit out of them (Git-R-Done) so there won't be any time for soldiers to go wacko?

"Saying anything but 'stay the course' hurts our efforts in Iraq. Paedophilic rape after collective murder, on the other hand, should be hidden and doesn't." - Fox News, Republicans...

Question: Would such atrocities be less likely to occour with a much, much larger military force. Like, send in 1/2 a mill, kick the shit out of them (Git-R-Done) so there won't be any time for soldiers to go wacko?

Well, let me put it this way. the question of whether we should have gone in at all aside, certainly if the war had been run competently things like this would be less likely because Iraq would be more stable, our troops and teh population would be under far less stress and we would have far less troops there now for lack of need. And, yes, having more troops initially would have been part of running the war competently.

Well, the happy days continue in our adventure in Iraq as eight soldiers will be court-martialed for murder and two soliders will be charges with raping a 14 year old girl. Democracy on the march people!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15320226/

Interestingly it is the rape that has the death penalty charge.

That's right ... every soldier rapes and pillages and plunders, all in the name of democracy. I lost count of the number of women I raped in Vietnam. I mean, what the hell, they were all going to die anyway, right? Besides, it was fun forcing myself on women who were terrified. Not only that, but I could steal any money they had laying around. Rape for fun and profit! Yayyy!

You are so incredibly disengenuous. I would call you all the nasty names I can think of ( which are a LOT! ), but I'd rather stay on General until I die from my exposure to Agent Orange while fighting for your freedom. Regardless of what you think, that was my intent at the time.

You are seriously in need of a major attitude adjustment.

Well, the happy days continue in our adventure in Iraq as eight soldiers will be court-martialed for murder and two soliders will be charges with raping a 14 year old girl. Democracy on the march people!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15320226/

Interestingly it is the rape that has the death penalty charge.
do you believe ,this is going to change anything?

Question: Would such atrocities be less likely to occour with a much, much larger military force. Like, send in 1/2 a mill, kick the shit out of them (Git-R-Done) so there won't be any time for soldiers to go wacko?

In 1968 there were US 536,100 troups in Vietnam. Maybe you remember what subsequently happened that year at My Lai when up to 500 unarmed civilians were massacred:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mylai/Myl_intro.html

Does that answer you question about troup numbers ?

In 1968 there were US 536,100 troups in Vietnam. Maybe you remember what subsequently happened that year at My Lai when up to 500 unarmed civilians were massacred:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mylai/Myl_intro.html

Does that answer you question about troup numbers ?

I don't have any "questions about troop numbers." The soldiers at My Lai were the exception to the rule. I have actually seen American soldiers die while trying to protect civilians. Why not talk about those soldiers too?

That's right ... every soldier rapes and pillages and plunders, all in the name of democracy. I lost count of the number of women I raped in Vietnam. I mean, what the hell, they were all going to die anyway, right? Besides, it was fun forcing myself on women who were terrified. Not only that, but I could steal any money they had laying around. Rape for fun and profit! Yayyy!

You are so incredibly disengenuous. I would call you all the nasty names I can think of ( which are a LOT! ), but I'd rather stay on General until I die from my exposure to Agent Orange while fighting for your freedom. Regardless of what you think, that was my intent at the time.

You are seriously in need of a major attitude adjustment.

He pointed out a piece of news and that things in Iraq aren't fine and dandy. You freaked out and went "OMGxxor! He's badmouthing rapists while they were in an UNIFORM! SCUUUUUUUUUUM!!!". You didn't fight for anyone's freedom in Vietnam, you fought for jack shit, the sooner you realize that, the better.

In 1968 there were US 536,100 troups in Vietnam. Maybe you remember what subsequently happened that year at My Lai when up to 500 unarmed civilians were massacred:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mylai/Myl_intro.html

Does that answer you question about troup numbers ?

But would that have happened if all 536,100 would have all been deployed on day 1?

But would that have happened if all 536,100 would have all been deployed on day 1?
Wow!
may be the viets could have put 2 millions zombies of their own intop the fight, who knows?

He pointed out a piece of news and that things in Iraq aren't fine and dandy. You freaked out and went "OMGxxor! He's badmouthing rapists while they were in an UNIFORM! SCUUUUUUUUUUM!!!". You didn't fight for anyone's freedom in Vietnam, you fought for jack shit, the sooner you realize that, the better.

About what I would have expected from you. It was his editorializing that was the problem:
Well, the happy days continue in our adventure in Iraq .... Democracy on the march people!

Being able to actually quote someone is a big advantage, don't you think? [ smile ]

Wow!
may be the viets could have put 2 millions zombies of their own, who knows?

What are you ... about eight years old? :rolleyes:

About what I would have expected from you. It was his editorializing that was the problem:


Being able to acually quote someone is a big advantage, don't you think? [ smile ]

You still fail to provide any evidence whatsoever that he claimed that "all/most soldiers are like this", like you seemed to imply. Care to try again, little buddy?

What are you ... about eight years old? :rolleyes:
Actualy 30 more,but that is not the point, what is your?

That's right ... every soldier rapes and pillages and plunders, all in the name of democracy. I lost count of the number of women I raped in Vietnam. I mean, what the hell, they were all going to die anyway, right? Besides, it was fun forcing myself on women who were terrified. Not only that, but I could steal any money they had laying around. Rape for fun and profit! Yayyy!

You are so incredibly disengenuous. I would call you all the nasty names I can think of ( which are a LOT! ), but I'd rather stay on General until I die from my exposure to Agent Orange while fighting for your freedom. Regardless of what you think, that was my intent at the time.

You are seriously in need of a major attitude adjustment.

I am aware that not all troops are like these soldiers here. However Bush and Co. are acting like our troops can do no wrong, that we are angels sent from heavan to protect the Iraqi people or some such foolishness. When talking about the things that our soldiers do wrong is somehow unpatriotic. That abuses occur and the nation doesn't give a shit. Here we have another example of those rare occurances but I have to wonder if again there will be no national outrage. If no one cares the government could try to pretend this isn't that big a deal and sweep it under the rug.

I am aware that not all troops are like these soldiers here. However Bush and Co. are acting like our troops can do no wrong, that we are angels sent from heavan to protect the Iraqi people or some such foolishness. When talking about the things that our soldiers do wrong is somehow unpatriotic. That abuses occur and the nation doesn't give a shit. Here we have another example of those rare occurances but I have to wonder if again there will be no national outrage. If no one cares the government could try to pretend this isn't that big a deal and sweep it under the rug.

Indeed, Eut's reaction ("OMGZXXOR, SOLDIER-HATER!!!") shows this...

You still fail to provide any evidence whatsoever that he claimed that "all/most soldiers are like this", like you seemed to imply. Care to try again, little buddy?

1. I can't be arsed to respond to idiocy.

2. I have little time to spare for dweebs.

3. I am not your "buddy," little or otherwise.

I don't have any "questions about troop numbers." The soldiers at My Lai were the exception to the rule. I have actually seen American soldiers die while trying to protect civilians. Why not talk about those soldiers too?

I didn't say you did have any questions. My answer was to Dragontide's question concerning the effect of troup numbers.

1. I can't be arsed to respond to idiocy.

2. I have little time to spare for dweebs.

3. I am not your "buddy," little or otherwise.

Funny, because you showed time to respond to him with a knee-jerk reaction, but can't seem to come up with a decent explanation for the fact that he did not claim, as you implied, that all/most soldiers do this kind of thing. And I'm aware you're not my buddy, but your behavior allows me to be facetious.

Oh, and question for you in the Update thread.

I don't have any "questions about troop numbers." The soldiers at My Lai were the exception to the rule. I have actually seen American soldiers die while trying to protect civilians. Why not talk about those soldiers too?

We should be talikng about them too - but unfortunately, it is expected of them to do so. And the soldiers raping and killing children they should be protecting is an outrageous story, and albeit an uncommon event it is still warranted to ask how this could happen in the first place. And also, what consequences, if any, will this incident have in the long run? (Apart from the soldiers being punished, of course)

(about the brass getting time)

I hope not. They shouldn't get any time at all. At most they should maybe be demoted because their oversight was lax. What did they have to do with this? This was four guys who decided on their own and off duty to go rape and kill this girl and her family. That's like saying that if I decide to rape some girl I work with that my boss should do prison time. This is very different than the prison abuse where brass was actually giving orders or at the very least looking the other way. This was one incident that brass had absolutely nothing to do with.
.

I just had to answer this because it kinda outraged me. It would appear that you have no concept of the function of any armed forces. I myself am an NCO and among the first things taught to me about leadership is that if this kind of stuff happens and I know about it, it's my damned fault, and if it happens and i dont know about it, it's even MORE my damned fault.

If you put a lot of young men with guns in an enviroment where they might be killed any time, you cannot expect them to behave. Instead they must be held in check by their superiors, whose first and most important duty is to hold the unit together as a responsible entity. (for example, if captured in battle by an enemy adhering to the geneva conventions these people AND THEIR ENTIRE UNIT wouln't qualify for a status of a war prisoner and could be treated as common criminals. And be summarily shot.) At least the respective NCO's and their platoon leader have proven their utter incapability to lead people, and thus should be dishonorably discharged, and also receive some jailtime for utter negligence. The company commander's case is not as clear-cut, probably he should just be demoted.

Fried Tuna;11830701'](about the brass getting time)



I just had to answer this because it kinda outraged me. It would appear that you have no concept of the function of any armed forces. I myself am an NCO and among the first things taught to me about leadership is that if this kind of stuff happens and I know about it, it's my damned fault, and if it happens and i dont know about it, it's even MORE my damned fault.

If you put a lot of young men with guns in an enviroment where they might be killed any time, you cannot expect them to behave. Instead they must be held in check by their superiors, whose first and most important duty is to hold the unit together as a responsible entity. (for example, if captured in battle by an enemy adhering to the geneva conventions these people AND THEIR ENTIRE UNIT wouln't qualify for a status of a war prisoner and could be treated as common criminals. And be summarily shot.) At least the respective NCO's and their platoon leader have proven their utter incapability to lead people, and thus should be dishonorably discharged, and also receive some jailtime for utter negligence. The company commander's case is not as clear-cut, probably he should just be demoted.

Sound like you know something about the chain of command, but I question your understanding of the law. As I said in my post, demotions, discharges for dereliction of duty or incompetence, fine. But you can't put someone in jail for a murder they didn't commit, didn't order and had no knowledge of. The brass in this may deserve whatever punishment they get from the military for their lack of oversite, but to give them time for the crimes of people in their unit who did this while they were off duty and who did everything they could to conceal it is ridiculous.

But you can't put someone in jail for a murder they didn't commit, didn't order and had no knowledge of.

Which i'm not advocating.

...demotions, discharges for dereliction of duty or incompetence, fine.
You do realize that the maximun penalty for dereliction of duty is six months in jail?

What I'm saying is that the brass shouldn't get jailtime for the murder, they should get jailtime for criminal negligence. I gotta admit I don't know the US military code well enough, but back in this neck of woods an officer allowing that among his troops in wartime gotta face a whole lot more than just a discharge.

Fried Tuna;11830889']What I'm saying is that the brass shouldn't get jailtime for the murder, they should get jailtime for criminal negligence. I gotta admit I don't know the US military code well enough, but back in this neck of woods an officer allowing that among his troops in wartime gotta face a whole lot more than just a discharge.

Doesn't criminal negligence require some kind of knowledge that the soldiers were a risk to people and that the brass did nothing to take steps to prevent it? I don't think it can be proven that they knew there was a potential for those soldiers to do something like they did.

That's right ... every soldier rapes and pillages and plunders, all in the name of democracy.
Please show me where he said anything remotely of the sort.

You are seriously in need of a major attitude adjustment.
Considering you freaked out over someone posting a news story, I could say the same to you.

I have actually seen American soldiers die while trying to protect civilians. Why not talk about those soldiers too?
For the same reason we don't talk about firefighters who die in fires. They were doing their job.

For the same reason we don't talk about firefighters who die in fires. They were doing their job.

This is Forrest after all, General in the NS Bushevik Brigade who thinks anyone questioning Iraqnam is a soldier-spitting hippy.

In fact, there's a damn good reason that soldiers dying to save civilians isn't reported. If it is, that means that it's news, and stuff that's news isn't commonplace. It's rare. If the military reaches the point where dying to save civilians is the exception, rather than the rule, something has gone terribly, terribly wrong.

What these soldiers did was despicable. It undoes all the good that we've been doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. For every 100 good things that we do, some idiot does something like this. It pisses me off and makes me want to kill them myself. However, you don't hear about this kind of thing everyday for a reason. 99.9% of us are doing our jobs correctly and lawfully.

Doesn't criminal negligence require some kind of knowledge that the soldiers were a risk to people and that the brass did nothing to take steps to prevent it? I don't think it can be proven that they knew there was a potential for those soldiers to do something like they did.

You are not undrestanding. Stopping this kind of thing from happening is their duty. They have failed it. it doesn't matter if they knew or not because they should have known. When you are put in command of men you are responsible for everything they did as if you had done it yourself, because it's your job to stop them from doing stuff like this. In the military you are never responsible for just your own hide, it's not the same way as in civilian life.

Fried Tuna;11831817'] *snipshould have known.

That's where you lose me. Should they have maintained the kind of moral atmosphere hat would make something like this unthinkable? Sure. Should they have maintained a level of discipline that could have prevented it? Sure. Should they have inspired their men to maintain the kind of integrity that would stop them from doing something like this? Sure. Should they have noticed these guys were head cases and maybe done something to get rid of them? Sure. Should they have known what these guys were thinking? Of course not. That's not even possible.

That's where you lose me. Should they have maintained the kind of moral atmosphere hat would make something like this unthinkable? Sure. Should they have maintained a level of discipline that could have prevented it? Sure. Should they have inspired their men to maintain the kind of integrity that would stop them from doing something like this? Sure. Should they have noticed these guys were head cases and maybe done something to get rid of them? Sure. Should they have known what these guys were thinking? Of course not. That's not even possible.

It's the officers job to make sure that they don't have these thoughts. Besides, idk what part of the country they were in b/c either it is very calm or their officers are all morons. How could you have 2 soldiers sneak off in the middle of a war zone?

I don't have any "questions about troop numbers." The soldiers at My Lai were the exception to the rule. I have actually seen American soldiers die while trying to protect civilians. Why not talk about those soldiers too?

Or put their lives at risk for those civillians. What treatment did the guy from the copter who intervened in my lai get for his trouble?

But would that have happened if all 536,100 would have all been deployed on day 1?

I used that as an analogy but in answer to your question I asked one of my friends with a far more extensive knowledge of the subject than anyone this site is likely to have. The answer was " probably not. the Viets were better at jungle war than we were from the beginning. as ho chi minh said, for every one of you we kill, you will kill ten of us, but we will still prevail."

I can see that maybe the ananlogy wasn't fair but it was the only one I could think of.

It's the officers job to make sure that they don't have these thoughts. Besides, idk what part of the country they were in b/c either it is very calm or their officers are all morons. How could you have 2 soldiers sneak off in the middle of a war zone?

I agree for all the reasons I said in my post, I just don't think they should be held criminally liable for the acts of these soldiers. Professionally liabls, sure. Morally liable, sure.

I agree for all the reasons I said in my post, I just don't think they should be held criminally liable for the acts of these soldiers. Professionally liabls, sure. Morally liable, sure.

I think he should be criminally liable to reinforce those morals. If every officer, no matter how pure, sees that there are no consequences for letting this kind of thing slip by, then mark my words, more of these incidents will occur.

I think he should be criminally liable to reinforce those morals. If every officer, no matter how pure, sees that there are no consequences for letting this kind of thing slip by, then mark my words, more of these incidents will occur.

They should obviously pay some kind of negligence penalty but not anything worse. My main concern is that the actual soldiers who commit the crime actually be punished as they should be. In the current climate I can't really believe that will happen with these particular soldiers.