NationStates Jolt Archive

Simple little question:

Is material wealth (ie being a multi-millionaire) a real measure of success?

Simple little question:

Is material wealth (ie being a multi-millionaire) a real measure of success?

In business, anyway.

Success at what?

Simple little question:

Is material wealth (ie being a multi-millionaire) a real measure of success?

It depends with what you start with as well as what your goals are. For some people, yes, for me, no.

In business, anyway.

Is business all there is to life? That's what your answer implies...

Success at what?

Life.

It's a measure, but there is no one and only measure. Odds are that if you don't have to worry about money you've got time and resources to straighten out the rest of your life, so it is a good indicator of success.

The real question is whether or not it is important to you and those who you care about. Now, there are real benefits to material success, but if they cost you more to obtain than you get from them then they are most definitely not worth it.

Life.

So, your simple little question is only asking, "What is the point of life." Since you can't have success without defining a goal to achieve.

Not so simple at all. :p

No.
It's no measure for anything, except your bank account.

Simple little question:

Is material wealth (ie being a multi-millionaire) a real measure of success?

In combonation with other things, a millionaire who is a virgin would just be sad.

Simple little question:

Is material wealth (ie being a multi-millionaire) a real measure of success?
no. It's a good way to keep score, but not a real measure of success.

In combonation with other things, a millionaire who is a virgin would just be sad.

Usually, if you've got the money you can always get the sex...

It means being successful at having lots of money.
Whether that kind of success has any value to you is the question.

Personally, doesn't have much value to me. I want enough to survive, want to be able to support a family (money would play a part I guess in being successful at raising children and looking after my family, though it's only part of a much wider thing) and having enough to live comfortably would be nice. But it's not really my aim to get lots of money, and it wouldn't make me proud, or make me feel worthwhile or successful. And it doesn't make me respect other people any more.

It could be the side effect of something I value, but it'd never be the root of my admiration or pride or anything.

Is business all there is to life? That's what your answer implies...

I guess it does, but that's not what I meant. I think that people who are gung-ho, self-starting, go-get-'em business types should be sedated. Having a great deal of money can make life very pleasant (it can buy happiness).

Usually, if you've got the money you can always get the sex...

Indeed. But he asked if being a millionaire was a proper measure. You could be the world's only castrado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrado), make millions, and I'd feel sorry for you.

it says on my wall

When I die, it won't matter what kind of car I drove, or how big my house was, or how much money I made... but because I stopped and helped, I made a difference in the life of a child, and that is what matters.

I think a true measure of success isn't what you have, but what you do with what you have.

You know they say, you never see a hearse followed by a u-haul, and there's a reason for that.

for some, not for others

There is no success at life. You DIE at the end. You can have all the money, all the squalling infants, all the lovers, and all the beauty in the world and you'll still end up corpsified and gross while your lovers and kin bicker about who gets your precious wealth.

Indeed. But he asked if being a millionaire was a proper measure. You could be the world's only castrado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrado), make millions, and I'd feel sorry for you.

Yeah, but, IIRC, castrati didn't really have a choice about that one.

i
You know they say, you never see a hearse followed by a u-haul, and there's a reason for that.

That's cause we're not allowed to build pyramids anymore...

When we die, we'll see everybody just hanging around with nothing because we forgot to equip them with burial provisions...

There is no success at life. You DIE at the end. You can have all the money, all the squalling infants, all the lovers, and all the beauty in the world and you'll still end up corpsified and gross while your lovers and kin bicker about who gets your precious wealth.

I would argue that since we all die, enjoying most of the time you're here counts as a win. We all break even, but it's nice to win most of the hands.

No, absolutely not.

If I ever become a multi-millionaire, I hope I see it as a profound failure.

It's a measure, but there is no one and only measure. Odds are that if you don't have to worry about money you've got time and resources to straighten out the rest of your life, so it is a good indicator of success.

It is also possible that you'll have to work so hard to earn the money that you don't have time for the more important things in life, like a social life etc.
It could also be that you can't trust anyone because you constantly think the only thing they want is you money.

I think money only makes one happy to a certain degree. once you have most things you need, more money wont make you more happy.

There is no success at life. You DIE at the end. You can have all the money, all the squalling infants, all the lovers, and all the beauty in the world and you'll still end up corpsified and gross while your lovers and kin bicker about who gets your precious wealth.

while i (sadly) think this is true to an extent, i think it is also possible to have some succes in life (even though it is in vain in the end).

Usually, if you've got the money you can always get the sex...

But what a humiliating way to get it, though.

Hardly an indicator of "success."

Maybe you will not have attained your full personal "success," but your wealth represents how much you have contributed to society. I deem those hwo have given the most back to society the most "successful."

But what a humiliating way to get it, though.

Hardly an indicator of "success."

Definitely not a sign of success by any stretch...what good is it to be unable to find someone who truly loves you?

I'd rather have love and community than all the money in the world.

Definitely not a sign of success by any stretch...what good is it to be unable to find someone who truly loves you?

I'd rather have love and community than all the money in the world.

What good is it to be able to find someone who truly loves you? Both of you will die still. You'll grieve for your love if they happen to go first, they for you if it's the other way around.

People who look for meaning in life, and a way to "win" are deluding themselves.

Maybe you will not have attained your full personal "success," but your wealth represents how much you have contributed to society. I deem those hwo have given the most back to society the most "successful."

drug dealers have a lot of money, the contribute a lot to society, the local priests take a vow of poverty and have little money yet contribute a lot...

But what a humiliating way to get it, though.

Hardly an indicator of "success."

you don't really have to pay for it (like in prostitution).
a lot of money = a good father (more in the biological "can take care of most of a family's needs, like food and shelter) = sex

Why is financial sucess such a bad thing?

:confused:

while i (sadly) think this is true to an extent, i think it is also possible to have some succes in life (even though it is in vain in the end).

That's assuming it is vain. Even if there is no God(s) and we are nothing more than the interaction of matter in a material universe, we still have the purpose of propagating our genes to the next generation and success is the main way to maximize that purpose. We're maximizing God's utility function and all that...

Now, I personally feel we have some purpose, but that purpose is so esoteric and removed from contemporary understanding that we will not be able to deal with it until we've achieved a higher state of being than we currently possess.

Why is financial sucess such a bad thing?

:confused:

Because according to Commie Economics (the proud sponsors of the Collapse of the Soviet Union), one man's financial success is another man's oppression by Evil Corporate Overlords.

Why is financial sucess such a bad thing?

:confused:

I don't think financial success is a bad thing

me <---- capitalist!

I think using it as a measure of your own success in life is misguided

I think it being your #1 goal in life is sad

I think using it to catagorize other people as "those who contribute to society" and "those who don't" is disgusting.

That's assuming it is vain. Even if there is no God(s) and we are nothing more than the interaction of matter in a material universe, we still have the purpose of propagating our genes to the next generation and success is the main way to maximize that purpose. We're maximizing God's utility function and all that...

Now, I personally feel we have some purpose, but that purpose is so esoteric and removed from contemporary understanding that we will not be able to deal with it until we've achieved a higher state of being than we currently possess.

i don't know what is so great about propagating our genes. it makes me feel like a machine only driven by some biological needs. while i sure like to maximize God's utility function I don't even know if i want children. (and my genes aren't all that great to begin with)

on the second part: I don't believ in God or 'a higher stae of being', wich is kind of sad i think.

It makes having a happy life quite a bit easier, and makes things a lot easier and safer for your family and your descendants.

A person with a lot of money can do a lot of good in the world if he wants to, and I cannot think of a better measure of 'success' than securing a good future for your family and doing good works.

Money facilitates this like nothing else.

What good is it to be able to find someone who truly loves you? Both of you will die still. You'll grieve for your love if they happen to go first, they for you if it's the other way around.

That's true; death is painful, but we can still draw hope from the reality

People who look for meaning in life, and a way to "win" are deluding themselves.

Oh, there's still some meaning...we have to survive and pass our genes and traits on to the next generation of humans. Evolution is still a purpose, as heartless and as brutal as it can be.

However, I'd say there is a lot of evidence that mankind has a broad consensus of certain moral and spiritual concepts, and those concepts have not died despite the rise of rationality and philosophical scepticism. There are some things we cannot know, and for that reason I think it is pointless to try and logically argue one way or another.

The meaning of life is really one of the "fourteen unanswerable questions" from Buddhist thought...

Because according to Commie Economics (the proud sponsors of the Collapse of the Soviet Union), one man's financial success is another man's oppression by Evil Corporate Overlords.
Aha! Oppress the little people!
I don't think financial success is a bad thing

me <---- capitalist!

I think using it as a measure of your own success in life is misguided

I think it being your #1 goal in life is sad

I think using it to catagorize other people as "those who contribute to society" and "those who don't" is disgusting.
Oh, I think I get it.

I'd see it as only being sucessful in my line of work.

Definitely not a sign of success by any stretch...what good is it to be unable to find someone who truly loves you?

I'd rather have love and community than all the money in the world.

Absolutely.

What good is it to be able to find someone who truly loves you? Both of you will die still. You'll grieve for your love if they happen to go first, they for you if it's the other way around.

Because otherwise my life will be empty and lonely.

you don't really have to pay for it (like in prostitution).
a lot of money = a good father (more in the biological "can take care of most of a family's needs, like food and shelter) = sex

Economic security ("can take care of most of a family's needs") is not the same thing as having millions of dollars.

That's assuming it is vain. Even if there is no God(s) and we are nothing more than the interaction of matter in a material universe, we still have the purpose of propagating our genes to the next generation and success is the main way to maximize that purpose. We're maximizing God's utility function and all that...

That is not a "purpose," that is merely what we have been designed evolutionarily to do.

from a business perspective, there have been many hugely "successful" people with little or no money - hell, i think Donald Trump's gone bankrupt a few times despite owning entire city blocks!

some (most, you could argue) of the world's greatest artists/poets/sculpters have died dirt-poor, diseased, and/or crazy.

some of the most sincere people you could ever meet had little money or voluntarily gave it up.

on the other hand, there have been philanthropists that have donated billions for charity, and live happy, productive, sincere lives.


in the end, i'm of the opinion that money is not an indicator of success or failure; it is simply a tool towards one's ends, whatever they may be.

/soapbox

Because otherwise my life will be empty and lonely.

As long as you understand that in the end, it really doesn't matter. You're just trading your loneliness for the knowledge that when you die you'll be mourned horribly by someone. Trading your happiness for theirs, unless you have the grace to live longer than them.

i don't know what is so great about propagating our genes. it makes me feel like a machine only driven by some biological needs. while i sure like to maximize God's utility function I don't even know if i want children. (and my genes aren't all that great to begin with)

I think we have a purpose; whatever it is can't really be truly understood by us, but I think it is possible to know when we are on the right path. Perhaps our purpose is nothing more than evolution, but it seems odd that we would develop such extensive philosophical and religious concepts despite the rapid changes in technology and social structure since the dawn of man.

on the second part: I don't believ in God or 'a higher stae of being', wich is kind of sad i think.

The term "God's utility function" was a term coined by (I think) Richard Dawkins in The Selfish Gene, and he most definitely doesn't believe in God. At least one as conceived by man, as far as I know...you're not alone in that regard.

Why is financial sucess such a bad thing?

:confused:

I have two reasons.

1. Its pursuit requires needless self-sacrifice (hard work, etc.) for something that is ultimately illusory.
2. It necessarily denies resources to others so that someone already economically secure and well-off can prosper even more.

As long as you understand that in the end, it really doesn't matter. You're just trading your loneliness for the knowledge that when you die you'll be mourned horribly by someone. Trading your happiness for theirs, unless you have the grace to live longer than them.

I have no real problem with that. My happiness > other peoples happiness.

And yes, nothing "really" matters, as in the "grand scheme" of things, as in one million years from now even my genetic material will be more or less irrelevant. To say nothing of my bank account.

Still, it matters to *me*, in *my* grand scheme, as I imagine there are things you care about even despite the yawning, inevitably face of the void of death.

As long as you understand that in the end, it really doesn't matter. You're just trading your loneliness for the knowledge that when you die you'll be mourned horribly by someone. Trading your happiness for theirs, unless you have the grace to live longer than them.

Unless, perhaps, they think the same way I do?

My aunt went to Brown, then to Harvard law. She now works in a big Boston law firm and has many wealthy and somewhat famous clients. She earns a ton of money, has four huge houses. She also has three children by two different husbands, and is currently divorced. All of her children have been screwed up, to a degree, cause they were really nasty divorces.

My mother went to an art school and got a degree in painting. She met my dad there, and they have been married for 23 years (since they were 22). She now works for a not-for-profit, low income housing company. She has a lot of friends, and sells hand-made hats in her free time (my aunt dosn't even have time for her kids). My parents saved enough money to buy a small, crappy, dark apartment in Brooklyn, and we live cheaply.

Which of them has the better life? It's impossible to judge. Neither of them would be willing, ever, to switch places with each other.

I have no real problem with that. My happiness > other peoples happiness.

And yes, nothing "really" matters, as in the "grand scheme" of things, as in one million years from now even my genetic material will be more or less irrelevant. To say nothing of my bank account.

Still, it matters to *me*, in *my* grand scheme, as I imagine there are things you care about even despite the yawning, inevitably face of the void of death.

Certainly, I just understand it's fleeting and utimately pointless. Even if humans were immortal and lived until we opted to die it'd still be pointless. Everything eventually ends. Love is an interesting example, we're just fortunate enough to occasionally die before it wears off.

That is not a "purpose," that is merely what we have been designed evolutionarily to do.

Well, our purpose in that case would be to adhere to what evolution has designed us to do and nothing more. I just see much more than what can be justified solely according to evolutionary psychology or biology.

What advantage is there in developing philosophy of the self, or composing works of art? I just can't shake the feel that there is more than we can understand behind the cosmos...but whatever it is, it does exist.

Well, our purpose in that case would be to adhere to what evolution has designed us to do and nothing more. I just see much more than what can be justified solely according to evolutionary psychology or biology.

What advantage is there in developing philosophy of the self, or composing works of art? I just can't shake the feel that there is more than we can understand behind the cosmos...but whatever it is, it does exist.

Self awareness and enlightenment are always noble goals. I'm quite certain I'm a long way from enlightened.

I have two reasons.

1. Its pursuit requires needless self-sacrifice (hard work, etc.) for something that is ultimately illusory.
It's life.

You need to work hard to get anywhere.
2. It necessarily denies resources to others so that someone already economically secure and well-off can prosper even more.
Says the taxes.

Self awareness and enlightenment are always noble goals. I'm quite certain I'm a long way from enlightened.

I think we all are...

Indeed. But he asked if being a millionaire was a proper measure. You could be the world's only castrado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrado), make millions, and I'd feel sorry for you.

Given how amazing a good countertenor sounds, I suspect a real and talented castrato would be a "success" in my book. Being a great lover is nice and all, but you'll never get to impress as many people as you do by being a great musician. ;)

I think we have a purpose; whatever it is can't really be truly understood by us, but I think it is possible to know when we are on the right path. Perhaps our purpose is nothing more than evolution, but it seems odd that we would develop such extensive philosophical and religious concepts despite the rapid changes in technology and social structure since the dawn of man.

i think we just do what makes people feel best at that time. all the things you named came out of the need of the people who invented them. technology for instance isn't here for a purpose, its just to make our life more comfortable (although that is questionable). the same goes for philosophical and religious concepts. they are just 'invented' to protect us against fear, explain stuff, control the people, etc., so they only purpose these things have is to try to make our lifes more pleasant. i also think that most people make children, not because it is their purpose, but just because they are happy with it.
so since everything we do has no purpose other than making us more happy (happy might be the wrong word, but it is really hard to explain, especially when you're not that good in English), i think that is the only purpose in life.

Well, our purpose in that case would be to adhere to what evolution has designed us to do and nothing more.

How would that constitute a purpose?

It tells us what the function of our physical characteristics are; it doesn't tell us a thing about why we are here.

I just see much more than what can be justified solely according to evolutionary psychology or biology.

What advantage is there in developing philosophy of the self, or composing works of art?

Most likely, they are both accidents of evolution - activities that evolutionarily beneficial traits can lead to under the right circumstances.

I just can't shake the feel that there is more than we can understand behind the cosmos...but whatever it is, it does exist.

There's definitely something missing in the materialist worldview, but I don't know if that's indicative of some higher truth or whether it's just an aspect of human psychology under present conditions.

It's life.

You need to work hard to get anywhere.

And work harder to get further (well, unless your parents are rich or you get lucky in some other way, but I digress.)

Says the taxes.

No, says Soheran. The moral level of economic inequality is far lower than the current level, or the level that may be practically necessary in a modern society.