NationStates Jolt Archive

It seems barbaric to me to trade your teenage daughter's hand in marriage for another man's teenage daughter, but who am I to call them disgusting savages? Just because one of the daughters was so distressed by the arranged marriage that she ran away and is now in an Afghan prison as a consequence of seeking freedom and control over her own body doesn't mean that their culture is an inferior and primitive one that should be westernized. Just because they treat women as property to be sold and traded doesn't make them misogynistic scumbags. We must be culturally sensitive.
“I don't want to spend my life with this old man,” she said, scrunching her nose in disgust. And then in a burst of anger, she launched into a diatribe against her country's ancient custom of arranging marriages for young girls.

“We don't have democracy in this country if someone wants a love marriage,” she said. “My father exchanged me for another girl.”When her father gave her to the 50-year-old man, he returned the gift by offering his own teenager to Shabano's father.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061015.wxprison16/BNStory/International/home

It seems barbaric to me to trade your teenage daughter's hand in marriage for another man's teenage daughter, but who am I to call them disgusting savages? Just because one of the daughters was so distressed by the arranged marriage that she ran away and is now in an Afghan prison as a consequence of seeking freedom and control over her own body doesn't mean that their culture is an inferior and primitive one that should be westernized. Just because they treat women as property to be sold and traded doesn't make them misogynistic scumbags. We must be culturally sensitive.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061015.wxprison16/BNStory/International/home

Wow, I see American Democracy is really flourishing over there......:rolleyes:

Fuck political correctness, I know barbarism when I see it, and this is barbarism.

Wow, I see American Democracy is really flourishing over there......:rolleyes:

There's only so much the US can do, y'know, when faced with several hundred years of disgraceful practices.

Don't listen to them DCD. Because it's traditional doesn't make it right. Fuck cultural relativity.

There's only so much the US can do, y'know, when faced with several hundred years of disgraceful practices.

I'm an American, and saying that if we are having no impact on them. Hell! Stoning is still a method of execution!!!! :mad:

It seems barbaric to me to trade your teenage daughter's hand in marriage for another man's teenage daughter, but who am I to call them disgusting savages? Just because one of the daughters was so distressed by the arranged marriage that she ran away and is now in an Afghan prison as a consequence of seeking freedom and control over her own body doesn't mean that their culture is an inferior and primitive one that should be westernized. Just because they treat women as property to be sold and traded doesn't make them misogynistic scumbags. We must be culturally sensitive.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061015.wxprison16/BNStory/International/home
It is good to criticize patriarchy, no matter where it is found. It is good to criticize slavery and rape, no matter where they are found. Just don't get bogged down by trying to criticize other "cultures"...that is a vague term that includes many features of their lives and values that have nothing to do with patriarchy, slavery, and rape. Better to keep things simple, and criticize the specific things that suck (like patriarchy, slavery, and rape). Doing so will have the added benefit of helping you keep perspective so that you can recognize those same shitty things if, heaven forbid, they rear their ugly heads in your own culture.

Yes, there are barbaric cultures, and any that forces someone to marry against their will is barbaric.

It is good to criticize patriarchy, no matter where it is found. It is good to criticize slavery and rape, no matter where they are found. Just don't get bogged down by trying to criticize other "cultures"...that is a vague term that includes many features of their lives and values that have nothing to do with patriarchy, slavery, and rape. Better to keep things simple, and criticize the specific things that suck (like patriarchy, slavery, and rape). Doing so will have the added benefit of helping you keep perspective so that you can recognize those same shitty things if, heaven forbid, they rear their ugly heads in your own culture.
How do you do that voodoo that you do so well?

You said what I was thinking a bit more eloquently then I would have :)

Feh. Let them marry off teens to old geezers, no skin off my nose.

It seems barbaric to me to trade your teenage daughter's hand in marriage for another man's teenage daughter, but who am I to call them disgusting savages? Just because one of the daughters was so distressed by the arranged marriage that she ran away and is now in an Afghan prison as a consequence of seeking freedom and control over her own body doesn't mean that their culture is an inferior and primitive one that should be westernized. Just because they treat women as property to be sold and traded doesn't make them misogynistic scumbags. We must be culturally sensitive.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061015.wxprison16/BNStory/International/home

Fuck a bunch of "cultural sensitivity!" :upyours:

How do you do that voodoo that you do so well?

You said what I was thinking a bit more eloquently then I would have :)
I do what I can. :D

If any culture that includes selling one's female children into marriage is "barbaric," regardless of what other features that culture might have, then why is it so hard for some people to grasp that the problem is patriarchy and slavery (and what is, essentially, rape)? Why all this irrelevant hand-wringing about "culture"? "Cultural sensitivity" has absolutely nothing to do with the subject. But ahh well, I guess it's too much to expect that people actually criticize patriarchy itself, when it's far easier to point fingers at those evil barbarians over there who are nothing whatsoever like us...wink wink, nudge nudge...

It seems barbaric to me to trade your teenage daughter's hand in marriage for another man's teenage daughter, but who am I to call them disgusting savages? Just because one of the daughters was so distressed by the arranged marriage that she ran away and is now in an Afghan prison as a consequence of seeking freedom and control over her own body doesn't mean that their culture is an inferior and primitive one that should be westernized. Just because they treat women as property to be sold and traded doesn't make them misogynistic scumbags. We must be culturally sensitive.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061015.wxprison16/BNStory/International/home

Hey I've got a good idea! Why don't we invade and attempt to install democracy on them! Oh hang on a min....

I do what I can. :D

If any culture that includes selling one's female children into marriage is "barbaric," regardless of what other features that culture might have, then why is it so hard for some people to grasp that the problem is patriarchy and slavery (and what is, essentially, rape)? Why all this irrelevant hand-wringing about "culture"? "Cultural sensitivity" has absolutely nothing to do with the subject. But ahh well, I guess it's too much to expect that people actually criticize patriarchy itself, when it's far easier to point fingers at those evil barbarians over there who are nothing whatsoever like us...wink wink, nudge nudge...
Why is Patriarchy evil?

Actually, we can criticize their culture and we don't have to be "sensitive."

And if they don't like it, too damn bad. Cockroaches always hate the light.

Trilby63;11821218']Don't listen to them DCD. Because it's traditional doesn't make it right. Fuck cultural relativity.

What? Soooo you say that this is imorral based on your relative cultural moral standards. Yet you want to imposse yourmorality on others, and this is moral is it?

What? Soooo you say that this is imorral based on your relative cultural moral standards. Yet you want to imposse yourmorality on others, and this is moral is it?

So its OK to force young girls to marry against thier will to old men?

Why is Patriarchy evil?
I don't believe I said patriarchy was evil. If you want to know why patriarchy sucks for women (and/or for men) you're going to have to find somebody who is interested in giving you Feminism 101. If you need somebody to explain to you why it sucks to have 51% of the human population subjugated based on the genitals they are born with, then I doubt there's going to be anybody who can help you. :D

You must remember the impact of perspectives, but relativism never served me as a philosophy either. Relativism fails is many ways, especially under examples such as these.

It is good to criticize patriarchy, no matter where it is found. It is good to criticize slavery and rape, no matter where they are found. Just don't get bogged down by trying to criticize other "cultures"...that is a vague term that includes many features of their lives and values that have nothing to do with patriarchy, slavery, and rape. Better to keep things simple, and criticize the specific things that suck (like patriarchy, slavery, and rape). Doing so will have the added benefit of helping you keep perspective so that you can recognize those same shitty things if, heaven forbid, they rear their ugly heads in your own culture.

Bottle - have I reminded you lately on how much you rock?

I do what I can. :D

If any culture that includes selling one's female children into marriage is "barbaric," regardless of what other features that culture might have, then why is it so hard for some people to grasp that the problem is patriarchy and slavery (and what is, essentially, rape)? Why all this irrelevant hand-wringing about "culture"? "Cultural sensitivity" has absolutely nothing to do with the subject. But ahh well, I guess it's too much to expect that people actually criticize patriarchy itself, when it's far easier to point fingers at those evil barbarians over there who are nothing whatsoever like us...wink wink, nudge nudge...

Those are facets of their culture that need to be changed. I don't care about their traditional music, food, and style of dress, but the traditions that involve virtual slavery and rape of women, intolerance of other religions, and other unacceptable behaviors should be stamped out.

You must remember the impact of perspectives, but relativism never served me as a philosophy either. Relativism fails is many ways, especially under examples such as these.
Moral relativism, as I understand it, is the recognition that human morality is invented by humans, and (as such) is subjective rather than objective. This doesn't say anything about whether or not we should agree with people who have different concepts of morality than we do.

I freely acknowledge that every other human on the planet has as much right to define "good" and "bad" as I have. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them, or have respect for their morality, or even that I necessarily have to allow them to practice their morality. It is quite possible for me to criticize their moral systems on pragmatic grounds, or to examine it to see if it has internal consistancy.

I don't believe I said patriarchy was evil. If you want to know why patriarchy sucks for women (and/or for men) you're going to have to find somebody who is interested in giving you Feminism 101.

I just don't understand why it's ok to bash them for their traditions? Sure it's repugnant to us but to them, the way we treat women is repugnant. It just doesn't seem right to judge them.

Those are facets of their culture that need to be changed. I don't care about their traditional music, food, and style of dress, but the traditions that involve virtual slavery and rape of women, intolerance of other religions, and other unacceptable behaviors should be stamped out.

FGM, too, should be stamped out. :mad:

(It's not in Afghanistan, but still, while we're on the subject...)

Those are facets of their culture that need to be changed. I don't care about their traditional music, food, and style of dress, but the traditions that involve virtual slavery and rape of women, intolerance of other religions, and other unacceptable behaviors should be stamped out.

Who get's to define "Unacceptable"? Oh... that's right... the guy with the nukes. Carry on.

What? Soooo you say that this is imorral based on your relative cultural moral standards. Yet you want to imposse yourmorality on others, and this is moral is it?

Yes it is. It's moral because it makes people equal in value and rights. That's the natural state of man. People from all kinds of situations where they have been oppressed have given up their property and risked their lives to go to places where they can attain some level of equality. The American slaves migrated North to parts of the US where they were more equal even if it wasn't totally equal. The Jews left medieval Europe for the Caliphate where some rights were guaranteed to them. Cubans brave the open sea to leave their "communist paradise" to get to Miami.

Those are facets of their culture that need to be changed. I don't care about their traditional music, food, and style of dress, but the traditions that involve virtual slavery and rape of women, intolerance of other religions, and other unacceptable behaviors should be stamped out.
Right, THOSE TRADITIONS. And, I would venture to guess, you feel the same about those kinds of traditions if they are found in other cultures, right? So why waste time yelling about "their culture," when "their culture" includes a whole pile of stuff that you actually aren't worried about?

Keep it simple. When you start attacking "culture" you are using fuzzy language that may mean different things to each person you speak to. A lot of people won't know what you're talking about. But if you criticize the abuse, enslavement, and rape of other human beings, it's damn hard for anybody to miss your point.

I just don't understand why it's ok to bash them for their traditions? Sure it's repugnant to us but to them, the way we treat women is repugnant. It just doesn't seem right to judge them.

When's the last time a woman who was fat or refused to wear a bikini was imprisoned in the US? Women here may face some discrimination, but they've got infinitely more freedom to choose the course of their lives than the virtual slaves in Afghanistan.

I'm an American, and saying that if we are having no impact on them. Hell! Stoning is still a method of execution!!!! :mad:

ahh, you are American?

wow that makes you a expert on the subject then, tanks for clarifying that in your post.

I just don't understand why it's ok to bash them for their traditions? Sure it's repugnant to us but to them, the way we treat women is repugnant. It just doesn't seem right to judge them.

In this case the girl seems to find her treatment repungant. I think it is ok to side with her on this one, moral relativism or not.

Yes it is. It's moral because it makes people equal in value and rights. That's the natural state of man. People from all kinds of situations where they have been oppressed have given up their property and risked their lives to go to places where they can attain some level of equality. The American slaves migrated North to parts of the US where they were more equal even if it wasn't totally equal. The Jews left medieval Europe for the Caliphate where some rights were guaranteed to them. Cubans brave the open sea to leave their "communist paradise" to get to Miami.

The natural state of man is also infested with parasites. Let's stop filtering our drinking water and return to nature. Huzzah!

When's the last time a woman who was fat or refused to wear a bikini was imprisoned in the US? Women here may face some discrimination, but they've got infinitely more freedom to choose the course of their lives than the virtual slaves in Afghanistan.

We treat them equally (for the most part), that's what's found repugnant.

I don't believe I said patriarchy was evil. If you want to know why patriarchy sucks for women (and/or for men) you're going to have to find somebody who is interested in giving you Feminism 101.

Hmm. It's interesting. I never needed a course in feminism to see why the effects of our patriarchal system were very negative for women and not much better for men. Maybe it's because my mother didn't raise me to be misogynistic idiot despite her being a fundamentalist Christian. ;)

If you need somebody to explain to you why it sucks to have 51% of the human population subjugated based on the genitals they are born with, then I doubt there's going to be anybody who can help you. :D

I tend to agree. It's pretty damn obvious, and it amazes me that people just don't see what's in front of their faces. And then I remember human history, and the amazement subsides. But that's another story. :)

So its OK to force young girls to marry against thier will to old men?


According to my cultral morality, no it is not okay to force young girls to marry old me.

When's the last time a woman who was fat or refused to wear a bikini was imprisoned in the US? Women here may face some discrimination, but they've got infinitely more freedom to choose the course of their lives than the virtual slaves in Afghanistan.
And I'm sure that's repugnant to someone.
In this case the girl seems to find her treatment repungant. I think it is ok to side with her on this one, moral relativism or not.

If she can get into a place where she isn't imprisoned for it, I support her wholeheartedly.

I just don't understand why it's ok to bash them for their traditions?

1) Criticizing =/= "bashing."

2) Even if it did, I am not bashing them for their traditions, I'm bashing their traditions. It's perfectly possible for very nice and well-meaning people to do shitty things.


Sure it's repugnant to us but to them, the way we treat women is repugnant.

So? I don't agree with them. What's wrong with that? Yes, they have their opinions. And I have mine. Are we just supposed to never talk to anybody who has opinions different from ours? If we encounter different opinions, should we never discuss them or examine them or think critically about them?


It just doesn't seem right to judge them.
How do you figure? I expect them to judge me, and I'm judging them. Judgment is one of the most useful and adaptive functions of the marvelous human neocortex. It is, quite literally, what separates humans from other forms of animal life.

According to my cultral morality, no it is not okay to force young girls to marry old me.

But because it's acceptable in theirs, we shouldn't question rape an slavery?

I just don't understand why it's ok to bash them for their traditions? Sure it's repugnant to us but to them, the way we treat women is repugnant. It just doesn't seem right to judge them.

Personally, the only reason I don't think we should be passing judgement on them is that we have a nice log in our own eye, and we should get that out before attacking the log cabin in theirs.

The natural state of man is also infested with parasites. Let's stop filtering our drinking water and return to nature. Huzzah!

No, the natural state of man is to try to get rid of parasites. When we itch we scratch. It's your philosophy that leaves people behind, infested with old cultural afflictions that the modern world has reduced significantly. Freedom is good for Europeans, Americans and some Asians, but it's no good for those backward Afghan women. Let's leave them to suffer. They're happier that way.

1) Criticizing =/= "bashing."

2) Even if it did, I am not bashing them for their traditions, I'm bashing their traditions. It's perfectly possible for very nice and well-meaning people to do shitty things.
... I actually can't argue with that.


So? I don't agree with them. What's wrong with that? Yes, they have their opinions. And I have mine. Are we just supposed to never talk to anybody who has opinions different from ours? If we encounter different opinions, should we never discuss them or examine them or think critically about them?
Never said that, just don't see why everyone has decided to declare that "They are wrong." as if it's a undeniable fact.

How do you figure? I expect them to judge me, and I'm judging them. Judgment is one of the most useful and adaptive functions of the marvelous human neocortex. It is, quite literally, what separates humans from other forms of animal life.
Other animals judge things. Weakness of prey, attractiveness of mates, whether or not they can eat something...

And I'm sure that's repugnant to someone.


If she can get into a place where she isn't imprisoned for it, I support her wholeheartedly.

But if she's caught and imprisoned then returned to her slave master husband who will rape and beat her, well, fuck it. She doesn't matter.

If she can get into a place where she isn't imprisoned for it, I support her wholeheartedly.

How can you blame a victim of persecution?

Your comment is like saying the Jews were morally repugnant living in Nazi germany, and they should not have been supported until they got out of there.

Godwin be dammed. 6million Jews were killed and millions more persecuted. Hundreds of millions of women, if not billions, since have faced horrors equal to anything faced by the Jews in Nazi Germany. If anything a comparison to Nazi germany understates the persecution faced by women in third world countries around the world. And even a few first world ones.

Wow, I see American Democracy is really flourishing over there......:rolleyes:



Since when did you lose track of what democracy means ? Or is making throw away comments, your ironic way of expressing your rights under a democracy ?

You do see if the entire CULTURE is based on a system then the democracy will also REFLECT that ...or dont you ? If it did not than it would not be a democracy would it ?


Didn't have a thought or a dictionary before the post I guess ?

American democracy works for Americans ...Afghanistans democracy works for the people of afghanistan...you do understand THATS the whole concept behind democracy ?

How can you blame a victim of persecution?

Your comment is like saying the Jews were morally repugnant living in Nazi germany, and they should not have been supported until they got out of there.

Godwin be dammed. 6million Jews were killed and millions more persecuted. Hundreds of millions of women, if not billions, since have faced horrors equal to anything faced by the Jews in Nazi Germany. If anything a comparison to Nazi germany understates the persecution faced by women in third world countries around the world. And even a few first world ones.

Were there ever a billion Jews?

No, the natural state of man is to try to get rid of parasites. When we itch we scratch. It's your philosophy that leaves people behind, infested with old cultural afflictions that the modern world has reduced significantly. Freedom is good for Europeans, Americans and some Asians, but it's no good for those backward Afghan women. Let's leave them to suffer. They're happier that way.

Well that's the system that has evolved there. If they rise up and oppress their opressors, I have no problem with that either.

But if she's caught and imprisoned then returned to her slave master husband who will rape and beat her, well, fuck it. She doesn't matter.
Is she in my country? Will this hurt me? Then I don't see why I should care.

Never said that, just don't see why everyone has decided to declare that "They are wrong." as if it's a undeniable fact.

I don't think I've said "they are wrong, objectively speaking." I don't think I've even said they're wrong, just that patriarchy sucks no matter where you find it.


Other animals judge things. Weakness of prey, attractiveness of mates, whether or not they can eat something...This is not judgment, it is instinct. The higher executive functions involved in human judgment cannot be performed in most other animal species because they don't have the brain regions that perform these functions. There are a few other species that may have analogous structures, such as some of the other great apes, but research suggests that they have only the most rudamentary beginnings of what we term judgment. The ability to make critical evaluations of abstract concepts is, as far as we can tell, unique to humans. At least on this planet. :D

How can you blame a victim of persecution?


I'm not. It's not her fault she can't fight back, it's just not my responsibility to do it for her.

Well that's the system that has evolved there. If they rise up and oppress their opressors, I have no problem with that either.


Is she in my country? Will this hurt me? Then I don't see why I should care.

Well, I think you've just come out as a sociopath incapable of empathizing with other humans. Congratulations, you're defective.

I'm not. It's not her fault she can't fight back, it's just not my responsibility to do it for her.Fair enough. I'm not one to try to tell other human beings that they are obligated to serve one another in any particular manner. If you want to decide that this topic is none of your business, then that's up to you.

However, you seem quite capable of forming and expressing your opinions. That seems to be the point of this thread: to share opinions about this situation.

Yes it is. It's moral because it makes people equal in value and rights. That's the natural state of man. People from all kinds of situations where they have been oppressed have given up their property and risked their lives to go to places where they can attain some level of equality. The American slaves migrated North to parts of the US where they were more equal even if it wasn't totally equal. The Jews left medieval Europe for the Caliphate where some rights were guaranteed to them. Cubans brave the open sea to leave their "communist paradise" to get to Miami.

Good points and good examples, but this is people moving voluntaryly into a place where the normal morality is differant. It is not an example of people forcing their morality onto others.

Which is immoral.

Fair enough. I'm not one to try to tell other human beings that they are obligated to serve one another in any particular manner. If you want to decide that this topic is none of your business, then that's up to you.

However, you seem quite capable of forming and expressing your opinions. That seems to be the point of this thread: to share opinions about this situation.

And I shared mine. *quietly goes back to lurking.*

Well, I think you've just come out as a sociopath incapable of empathizing with other humans. Congratulations, you're defective.
I can empathize, I just choose not to. But... mind if I put this in my sig?

Wait they have political prisoners there?

Well, I think you've just come out as a sociopath incapable of empathizing with other humans. Congratulations, you're defective.

Yes, yes, shep is damaged goods, fine and dandy, however...

Actually, Bottle has said everything you need to be responding to, nevermind me.

Good points and good examples, but this is people moving voluntaryly into a place where the normal morality is differant. It is not an example of people forcing their morality onto others.

Which is immoral.

My point is that people are not blank slates that can be written upon by their culture. People are born desiring freedom. A culture (or cultural practice for bottle) that enslaves people is a crime against humanity. The morality of these Afghans is forcing itself upon their women's natural desire for freedom.

And I shared mine. *quietly goes back to lurking.*


I can empathize, I just choose not to. But... mind if I put this in my sig?

Anyone can feel free to put anything I post into their sig. I believe in freedom of speech.

And I shared mine. *quietly goes back to lurking.*

Hey, I think you made some interesting points. Lurk if you must, but pipe up from time to time, too!

But because it's acceptable in theirs, we shouldn't question rape an slavery?

Yes of course we should. What we shouldn't do though, is force our morality onto others. Which was what my original reply was to the chap who say that we should.

Hey look at me, Im a stupid American. Im unable to understand why anyone wouldnt want democracy and Christianity, I mean they are so great! Organised marriages are soooooo evil even if this is all they've known for generations. How can you not have the same exact culture as the US!? Bunch of savages.:rolleyes:

Hey look at me, Im a stupid American. Im unable to understand why anyone wouldnt want democracy and Christianity, I mean they are so great! Organised marriages are soooooo evil even if this is all they've known for generations. How can you not have the same exact culture as the US!? Bunch of savages.:rolleyes:
So do you actually have anything to contribute?

BTW, your caricature of me is flawed. I wouldn't want to force democracy on them, though I would want to use economic incentives to nudge them that way as well as influence their culture through media and trade so that it modernizes. I am an atheist who doesn't support any religion, and I'm not stupid. I don't claim to be the brightest bulb on NS, but I'm far from dumb.

My point is that people are not blank slates. People are born desiring freedom. A culture (or cultural practice for bottle) that enslaves people is a crime against humanity. The morality of these Afghans is forcing itself upon their women's natural desire for freedom.
What do you mean,desiring freedom?
Wich freedom would it be?
they don't like women?
They don't care, at least the west recognize the difference between,having it or not.
Tell me if a communist world of rich arsehole better is than an other one?

Yes of course we should. What we shouldn't do though, is force our morality onto others.
If it's okay, can we look at this "should" and "shouldn't" a bit more closely?

Why? And why not?

My own answer is one of pragmatism rather than morality: I simply don't think it will work if we try to force another culture to adopt our values.

I'm not. It's not her fault she can't fight back, it's just not my responsibility to do it for her.

But you have an objection to people judging/critizing the people and attitude that makes her a piece of property. You object to the opinion that she should not be treated this way, as it is not out place to say what is right or wrong for another culture. Which would be like saying people who did not live in Nazi Germany should not critizise the Nazis for rounding up Jews, Homosexuals, Gypsies and others and exterminating them - as it is not our culture.

It's true people only have rights when they are in a land that gives them rights and protects those rights. But that does not mean they should not have those rights if they don't live in such a land.

What do you mean,desiring freedom? For one thing, freedom to decide who they will reproduce with. Women who are raped suffer more psychological trauma when the rape might result in a pregnancy. This little girl is basically being forced into a lifetime of rape and procreation with a man she doesn't like.
Wich freedom would it be? Personally I think people should have the maximum ammount of freedom that doesn't infringe on the equal rights of others.
they don't like women? Sure they like them. As slaves. Unfortunately women are born as human beings, not obedient robots
They don't care, at least the west recognize the difference between,having it or not.
Tell me if a communist world of rich arsehole better is than an other one?OK, this last part I don't understand.

It's true people only have rights when they are in a land that gives them rights and protects those rights. But that does not mean they should not have those rights if they don't live in such a land.

Which is subjective. I'm saying she doesn't have the right to escape under law, so it's wrong. Just as he doesn't have the right to kill her. (I am assuming he doesn't have the right to kill her...)

Personally I think people should have the maximum ammount of freedom that doesn't infringe on the equal rights of others.
Well apperently the Afghanistani Government doesn't agree with you. I'm slightly more inclined to listen to them on issues of their own soveirgnty.

This is a really difficult argument. Aside from religion entirely, this practice is barbaric. There is a very big difference that I feel it is important to make between arranged and forced marriages the latter of which is not condoned culturally or religiously in Islam or in Hinduism (world religions in which arranged marriages feature).

As to the definition of 'force' as opposed to 'arranged', well herein lies one of the issues at hand.

The second is that of applying Western cultural beliefs as defined by the UK/US etc to countries in Asia/Africa/Eastern Europe. Well this is something that troubles me deeply. I disagree with patriarchal social constructs and practices like this or female circumsicion but do we have the right to tell others how to run their countries? I definitely think in a globalised world such as ours it is our business. By the same token, of course, things happening in our countries are their business.

But what makes us so great? What have we done to deserve this moral high ground?

I'm playing devil's advocate slightly but this thread has made me think quite a lot....

What have we done to deserve this moral high ground?
In one sentence you surpassed what I wanted to say in a more eloquent way then I ever could of said it.

it's the cold war fucked up region. Before American and Soviet intervention they had started a democracy and took example of secular-republic example of Turkiye. Later constant war turned them back into stone age.

Same for many middle eastern, african and asian countries. The reason they are in such a bad shape is first colonisation and then cold war. The number of intellectuals, reformists and revolutionists killed in those countries by Europeans, Americans and Russians are countless. Someone takes a socialist stance and Usa shoots him, someone struggles for free trade and Russia shoots him. Someone wants human rights and a share from oil coming from their land, British-French-German-etc. shoots him. For the last 100 years 3rd world countries have been pushed constantly into dirt, corrupt politicians are supported by their strong enemies keeping them down and continiung to opress intellectuals.

In one sentence you surpassed what I wanted to say in a more eloquent way then I ever could of said it.


Probably the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me on this board - considering I normally get people called Fascist Yankee shouting at me about being a 'liberal' idiot....

For one thing, freedom to decide , this last part I don't understand.
i knew that

it's the cold war fucked up region. Before American and Soviet intervention they had started a democracy and took example of secular-republic example of Turkiye. Later constant war turned them back into stone age.

Same for many middle eastern, african and asian countries. The reason they are in such a bad shape is first colonisation and then cold war. The number of intellectuals, reformists and revolutionists killed in those countries by Europeans, Americans and Russians are countless. Someone takes a socialist stance and Usa shoots him, someone struggles for free trade and Russia shoots him. Someone wants human rights and a share from oil coming from their land, British-French-German-etc. shoots him. For the last 100 years 3rd world countries have been pushed constantly into dirt, corrupt politicians are supported by their strong enemies keeping them down and continiung to opress intellectuals.


All of which rings entirely true - you'd be hardpushed to deny that we all have to take the blame for radical Islamist governments in the region: look who the CIA were training there in the 80s, or at the consequence of a British mandate in Palestine etc...

But you haven't answered the question: So we fucked up their countries: Do we now have the right to try and de-fuck-them-up ? Or is it a question of laissez-faire international policies as well - if not then I'd like to propose a movement toward diplomatic lines of international movements against Sharia law. But that may just be me...

My point is that people are not blank slates that can be written upon by their culture. People are born desiring freedom. A culture (or cultural practice for bottle) that enslaves people is a crime against humanity. The morality of these Afghans is forcing itself upon their women's natural desire for freedom.

Yes I agree, but my point was only in answer to this:

[NS]Trilby63

Don't listen to them DCD. Because it's traditional doesn't make it right. Fuck cultural relativity.

Specificaly the last 3 words.

If it's okay, can we look at this "should" and "shouldn't" a bit more closely?

Why? And why not?

My own answer is one of pragmatism rather than morality: I simply don't think it will work if we try to force another culture to adopt our values.

You are right I think.

Probably the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me on this board - considering I normally get people called Fascist Yankee shouting at me about being a 'liberal' idiot....


Ohhh is that you is it......;)

My own answer is one of pragmatism rather than morality: I simply don't think it will work if we try to force another culture to adopt our values.

And even if it would, what's the payoff? A barely stable country that kinda sort of likes us, or even resents us for tampering with them? A warm fuzzy feeling when we get up in the morning?

And even if it would, what's the payoff? A barely stable country that kinda sort of likes us, or even resents us for tampering with them? A warm fuzzy feeling when we get up in the morning?


Shit man was drunk right about you? Have you no empathy for your fellow man then?

Shit man was drunk right about you? Have you no empathy for your fellow man then?

We have our own problems. Why spend 100 billion dollars to move troops to some Godforsaken country when we can spend that same 100 million dollars fixing ourselves? It's not like that country is going to help us. There is no payoff. I empathize with my fellow man, but I empathize with my fellow Americans more.

And even if it would, what's the payoff? A barely stable country that kinda sort of likes us, or even resents us for tampering with them? A warm fuzzy feeling when we get up in the morning?
In my opinion, morality requires conscious agency. You cannot force somebody to "be moral" according to a code they either don't understand or don't accept. You can force somebody to display a certain set of behaviors, and to refrain from displaying other behaviors, but if they're simply complying to receive reward or avoid punishment then that's not morality. That's obedience training.

Which, to be sure, has its purposes. But it's still not morality.

Shit man was drunk right about you? Have you no empathy for your fellow man then?

I'm not sure that's the point else they wouldn't be posting...

I understand that PoV because it is a tricky situation. There is empathy for the little girl but you have to be (going to get shouted at for fuzzy language) culturally sensitive. That doesn't mean approve or condone what they do, but how on earth do we change the way they do stuff?

Just because some Islamist radicals in Afghanistan don't understand others and try and force their way of thinking onto others doesn't mean we should play the same game: exactly why war with the Taliban was misadvised.

John Simpson (a BBC reporter) did a piece on "post-Taliban" Afghanistan which demonstrated that the majority of people hated this kind of practice but that post-invasion they hated the US/British more....Shows that we need a new kind of tool to stop this kind of atrocity I feel...

We have our own problems. Why spend 100 billion dollars to move troops to some Godforsaken country when we can spend that same 100 million dollars fixing ourselves? It's not like that country is going to help us. There is no payoff. I empathize with my fellow man, but I empathize with my fellow Americans more.


And to think I defended you. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN AFGHANI AND AN AMERICAN.

How dare you put one human being above another, who gives you that right? I'm saddened that the one compliment I've ever received on this board came from you.

And to think I defended you. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN AFGHANI AND AN AMERICAN.

How dare you put one human being above another, who gives you that right? I'm saddened that the one compliment I've ever received on this board came from you.
stop!
We all agree it can better

And to think I defended you. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN AFGHANI AND AN AMERICAN.

How dare you put one human being above another, who gives you that right? I'm saddened that the one compliment I've ever received on this board came from you.

Nothing gives me that right I suppose. But it's more cost effective to help an American. It's a cold hard fact. *shrug* Would you like me to insult you now to make up for it or something?

Nothing gives me that right I suppose. But it's more cost effective to help an American. It's a cold hard fact. *shrug* Would you like me to insult you now to make up for it or something?


No. You just used the words 'cost effective' pertaining to human beings. That'll do as an insult to all people living in non-'cost effective' countries/regions in this world...

No. You just used the words 'cost effective' pertaining to human beings. That'll do as an insult to all people living in non-'cost effective' countries/regions in this world...

Nothing against the people. Simply against what I can get from the people. I'm a ruthless capitalist, I admit it.

Nothing against the people. Simply against what I can get from the people. I'm a ruthless capitalist, I admit it.

Just winding me up now...I'll leave it although my anti-capitalist "Let's be altruistic people: God it's so much better to care about people more than money" rant switch is twitching from off to on....lol

Just winding me up now...I'll leave it although my anti-capitalist "Let's be altruistic people: God it's so much better to care about people more than money" rant switch is twitching from off to on....lol

Ah, I'll leave. I seem to have killed this thread anyway.:(

No. You just used the words 'cost effective' pertaining to human beings. That'll do as an insult to all people living in non-'cost effective' countries/regions in this world...
Not really, since it's factually true in many ways. Facts often are unkind, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily insults.

It seems barbaric to me to trade your teenage daughter's hand in marriage for another man's teenage daughter, but who am I to call them disgusting savages? Just because one of the daughters was so distressed by the arranged marriage that she ran away and is now in an Afghan prison as a consequence of seeking freedom and control over her own body doesn't mean that their culture is an inferior and primitive one that should be westernized. Just because they treat women as property to be sold and traded doesn't make them misogynistic scumbags. We must be culturally sensitive.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061015.wxprison16/BNStory/International/home

i'm intrigued by why you think that abolishing arranged marriages is an example of 'westernising'. considering it happened in the west not long ago, and probably still does in many western countries. i would say it's more an example of improving human rights, western cultures didn't invent compassion or human rights.

Yes it is. It's moral because it makes people equal in value and rights. That's the natural state of man. People from all kinds of situations where they have been oppressed have given up their property and risked their lives to go to places where they can attain some level of equality. The American slaves migrated North to parts of the US where they were more equal even if it wasn't totally equal. The Jews left medieval Europe for the Caliphate where some rights were guaranteed to them. Cubans brave the open sea to leave their "communist paradise" to get to Miami.

I would have to disagree with you about "people equal in value and rights" being a natural state of man. I do not have any knowlege of it ever having been observed anywhere at any time among a large group of people. Even though I dont consider it a natural or base state I do believe it is something we should strive for, but I also think that if we do ever achieve it we shall have to tend to it constantly and carefully or it will crumble and fall. The same holds true I fear of any part of it which we achieve.

We have our own problems. Why spend 100 billion dollars to move troops to some Godforsaken country when we can spend that same 100 million dollars fixing ourselves? It's not like that country is going to help us. There is no payoff. I empathize with my fellow man, but I empathize with my fellow Americans more.Oh, but it has paid off! Afghanistan is in the coalition of the willing! :p

I'll criticize any culture and religion that prohibits the drinking of alcohol. That's just pure evil there. Only way to repent is to have a massive booze-fest, and lift that curse off of their shoulders.

When's the last time a woman who was fat or refused to wear a bikini was imprisoned in the US? Women here may face some discrimination, but they've got infinitely more freedom to choose the course of their lives than the virtual slaves in Afghanistan.

Mhhh... In some places in the US you can be jailed because of your clothing.

In the town of Opelousas (LA), wearing saggy pants is considered a misdemeanor and carries a maximum penalty of a $500 fine and up to 6 months in prison.

And it could be extended to the whole of Luisiana:
Louisiana House Bill 1626 (http://www.legis.state.la.us/leg_docs/04RS/CVT6/OUT/0000LE3D.PDF)
La. lawmakers weigh banning belly-baring, bottom-peeking pants (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4963512/?GT1=3391)

I agree that there is no discrimination involved here since this law applies to both males and females. But to me it looks awfully similar to enforcing the burqa.

The ability to make critical evaluations of abstract concepts is, as far as we can tell, unique to humans. At least on this planet. :D

And cats ;)
And dolphins ;)
And white laboratory mice ;)

saddly afhganistan isnt the only country that still does this.

Just because one of the daughters was so distressed by the arranged marriage that she ran away and is now in an Afghan prison as a consequence of seeking freedom and control over her own body doesn't mean that their culture is an inferior and primitive one that should be westernized.



I think you're going too far. One thing is having the Afghan people abandon such horrible habits like force-marrying women - and that would be right. Forcing them to westernise their culture is a different thing - and it would be wrong. If you do that, the very moment NATO soldiers will leave Afghanistan, they'll start again with oppression of women as a symbol of their regained self-determination and of freedom from western invaders.
Let's try to better the world without exasperating too much people, shall we?

western cultures didn't invent [...] human rights.

We didn't? Interesting. Who did, then?