NationStates Jolt Archive

Fact #1 (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/16/iraq.poll/index.html): 64% of Americans oppose the war in Iraq.

Fact #2 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/26/AR2006092601721.html): A majority (65-71%) of Iraqis want US forces to pull out at once.

Fact #3: Bush claims that he supports the spread of democracy around the world (which would include, I assume, America and Iraq).

So, Bush says he wants to spread democracy, but does so by ignoring the majority opinion both in his own country and in the country he's trying to "liberate". Somebody please explain this. Don't even justify, just explain. I'd love to find at least a little logic behind this apparent paradox.

Fact #1 (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/16/iraq.poll/index.html): 64% of Americans oppose the war in Iraq.

Fact #2 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/26/AR2006092601721.html): A majority (65-71%) of Iraqis want US forces to pull out at once.

Fact #3: Bush claims that he supports the spread of democracy around the world (which would include, I assume, America and Iraq).

So, Bush says he wants to spread democracy, but does so by ignoring the majority opinion both in his own country and in the country he's trying to "liberate". Somebody please explain this. Don't even justify, just explain. I'd love to find at least a little logic behind this apparent paradox.

Isn't that "cognitive dissonance"?

Obviously it's only a democracy for the people that agree with them.

<snip>


He's trying to spread the IDEA of democracy, not the actual thing.
It sorta works anyway.

It's called "New NEW Imperialism". You see, this time around we aren't saying "Fuck you. Your land is ours now.". Instead we say "We are liberating you! Oh, you don't like it? Well you have to like it!", and we keep acting like we are there for peace. I liked the old imperialism better. At least the old imperalists were honest.

And before the war the majority supported it. That’s the problem with the people. They’re fickle.

And before the war the majority supported it.
That's because the majority was lied to.

Fact #1 (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/16/iraq.poll/index.html): 64% of Americans oppose the war in Iraq.

Fact #2 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/26/AR2006092601721.html): A majority (65-71%) of Iraqis want US forces to pull out at once.

Fact #3: Bush claims that he supports the spread of democracy around the world (which would include, I assume, America and Iraq).

So, Bush says he wants to spread democracy, but does so by ignoring the majority opinion both in his own country and in the country he's trying to "liberate". Somebody please explain this. Don't even justify, just explain. I'd love to find at least a little logic behind this apparent paradox.


You know it wouldn't have been this bad if they would have left the Iraqi Republican Guard intact...But anyways, yeah its a double standard thing, and since God chose bush to run the world, he can do such things. Its in the bible -nods-

That's because the majority was lied to.

There was plenty of reasonable doubt. The fact that the people didn’t realize that is due exclusively to laziness and just not giving a shit about brown people.

That's because the majority was lied to.

I don't know about that. I was against this war from the beginning. Not because I'm some kind of pacifist or something, because it was clearly a dumb thing to do. There was too much to lose and too little to gain to justify the odds against success. Other people had access to the same information as me. They just chose not to think. Can't blame lies for this. Laziness and willful ignorance are to blame.

That's because the majority was lied to.

I supported it at first, but back then I was a stupid 11 year old and it was EONS before NSG.. :( I regret that now, and I regret going Republican during the 2004 elections. :(:(:( I totally regret all of that... :(

I supported it at first, but back then I was a stupid 11 year old and it was EONS before NSG.. :( I regret that now, and I regret going Republican during the 2004 elections. :(:(:( I totally regret all of that... :(

How did you manage to vote?

Firstly, he should be calling it a Republic.

I'll move on to secondly if we can agree on that.

How did you manage to vote?

By saying "going Republican" I meant supporting Bush/Republican Party. I never voted though.

And I'm so glad I didn't... :(

I don't know about that. I was against this war from the beginning. Not because I'm some kind of pacifist or something, because it was clearly a dumb thing to do. There was too much to lose and too little to gain to justify the odds against success. Other people had access to the same information as me. They just chose not to think. Can't blame lies for this. Laziness and willful ignorance are to blame.


Agreed. I remember at HS I was at an after school rally against it, and people called us Al-Qaeda supporters, and what not. They were, and probably still are, under the impression that Iraq and Al Qaeda worked together to do 9-11, yadda yadda. And thats because they are fricking idiots.

If only we would have left Saddam in power, damnit.

Agreed. I remember at HS I was at an after school rally against it, and people called us Al-Qaeda supporters, and what not. They were, and probably still are, under the impression that Iraq and Al Qaeda worked together to do 9-11, yadda yadda. And thats because they are fricking idiots.
Exactly, and the only reason they want to leave now is because Americans are being killed. They don't give a fuck about being lied to, no matter how much they pretend to be.

Fact #1 (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/16/iraq.poll/index.html): 64% of Americans oppose the war in Iraq.

Fact #2 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/26/AR2006092601721.html): A majority (65-71%) of Iraqis want US forces to pull out at once.

Fact #3: Bush claims that he supports the spread of democracy around the world (which would include, I assume, America and Iraq).

So, Bush says he wants to spread democracy, but does so by ignoring the majority opinion both in his own country and in the country he's trying to "liberate". Somebody please explain this. Don't even justify, just explain. I'd love to find at least a little logic behind this apparent paradox.

Throw in the "many neocons are so pro-democracy that they want to quash dissent regarding it, even MAJORITY dissent" part as well, why don't you? It doesn't have to make sense, Bush has made doublethink into an ACTUAL policy.

It's weasel stomping day, everyone!

At first, I was dead set against the war. But then I realized that regardless of whether or not my opinion was a good one, I had chosen that point of view because that was what everyone around me believed. So, I decided to take a closer look. Now, my views are essentially the same, but at the same time... different.

*Note: I'm passing over the issue of why we went there in the first place. That's a whole 'nother can of worms.

Getting rid of Saddam was a good idea. After all, his regime did (and was doing up to the time of invasion) countless terrible things to the general populace. If the US would have been better organized, efficient, and educated about what they were getting into, and stabalized the region in a reasonable amount of time for withdrawal, then I believe most Iraqi people would have been happy and truly grateful. Many were at first, until things kept going from bad to worse.

I believe all of us are familiar with the situation in Baghdad and other big cities today. Speaks for itself the success of the US, doesn't it?

In Saddam's regime, crime was extremely low. After all, in a dictatorship none of that is allowed- except by the government. You really had to watch what you said, if you didn't want to be arrested and, ahhhh, never be seen again, unless in the form of a mutilated body stashed away somewhere. Unless, of course, you lived in Kurdistan during the late 1980s- then the violence was a little less discrete.

The difference now is that you can't walk down the streets of Baghdad without risking getting openly blown up or shot. And you still have to watch what you say to whom.

Parts of Iraq truly benefitted from the US presence. They are thankful for what has been done there, though they still ask when the troops will leave. But, does this make up for the hundreds of violent deaths that occur each week? Unless something really changes- which, it doesn't look like it's going to- I don't believe so.