NationStates Jolt Archive

Let's say that Bob starts working when he's 18 years old. He earns, say $6.00 dollars per hour. He works for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 50 weeks per year. In total, he would then earn $15,000 dollars per year. With that $15,000 dollars, let's assume that he spends $400 on food each month and $550 on rent, which means a total of $11,400 dollars in expenses each year. Hell, he can even spend another $2,800 dollars per year on miscellaneous items, which leaves him with $800 at the end of the year. Now, he invests this $800 in a mutual fund with an interest rate of 8% each year (typically, the rate is 11%, but 3% was subtracted due to inflation). That means that he will have about $362,000 dollars in his account by the time he retires at 65. If Bob starts living off his mutual fund from the time he retires, and withdraws $18,000 each year, he'll have $1,139,000 in his account at the time of his death at the age of 85. So even if you work a minimum wage job, you can still become a millionaire; if you were a savvy investor, you could easily double your income. All you need is a bit of frugality -- it's not hard. The poor have the capacity to help themselves if they so wish -- my tax money shouldn't be going to some could-be millionaires.

what an insular view of life. this naivety could only come from a kid.

when you have lived 5 minuites in the real world lecture the poor.

Let's say that Bob starts working when he's 18 years old. He earns, say $6.00 dollars per hour. He works for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 50 weeks per year. In total, he would then earn $15,000 dollars per year. With that $15,000 dollars, let's assume that he spends $400 on food each month and $550 on rent, which means a total of $11,400 dollars in expenses each year. Hell, he can even spend another $2,800 dollars per year on miscellaneous items, which leaves him with $800 at the end of the year. Now, he invests this $800 in a mutual fund with an interest rate of 8% each year (typically, the rate is 11%, but 3% was subtracted due to inflation). That means that he will have about $362,000 dollars in his account by the time he retires at 65. If Bob starts living off his mutual fund from the time he retires, and withdraws $18,000 each year, he'll have $1,139,000 in his account at the time of his death at the age of 85. So even if you work a minimum wage job, you can still become a millionaire; if you were a savvy investor, you could easily double your income. All you need is a bit of frugality -- it's not hard. The poor have the capacity to help themselves if they so wish -- my tax money shouldn't be going to some could-be millionaires.

But by the time you've saved up that much, after 4% inflation for 60 years, it will only be worth 100K.

what an insular view of life. this naivety could only come from a kid.

when you have lived 5 minuites in the real world lecture the poor.

I see. You could find no flaw in my argument, so you simply chose to insult me. This model is easily applicable to "the real world" -- hell, it should have been $3,000,000 if I didn't want to take the lowest possible bound.

How does he get around paying payroll taxes, paying for doctor visits and medicine when he's sick, how does he own a car to get him to and from work on 2,800 in miscellaneous expenses which have to cover clothing, phone bills, gas or oil and electric bills, and all the other little expenses of life which add up to a shitload of money? Do you still live with the folks? I can't understand how you wouldn't even think to take that crap into account otherwise.

But by the time you've saved up that much, after 4% inflation for 60 years, it will only be worth 100K.

His wages would also increase by a comprable amount. For the sake of simplicity, I assumed no inflation, and took 3% off the mutual bond returns to account for that. Currently, they yield around 14% -- I opted for 8% to reflect the reality of inflation.

Oops, Bob contracted a disease at age 50 that requires a $250 a month drug regimen. Working at his minimum wage job as he is, Bob no longer has 800 bucks to invest. I suppose he and Mrs. Bob could sell one of the children ...

And do you have a source for this calculation or did you just make it up?

what an insular view of life. this naivety could only come from a kid.

when you have lived 5 minuites in the real world lecture the poor.

No kidding, Ever heard of income taxes? What about life, car, and house insurance? Electricity bills, Water bills, gas money, inflation.

Maybe if Bob lived in a van down by the river he could become a millionaire...

Let's say that Bob starts working when he's 18 years old. He earns, say $6.00 dollars per hour. He works for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 50 weeks per year. In total, he would then earn $15,000 dollars per year. With that $15,000 dollars, let's assume that he spends $400 on food each month and $550 on rent, which means a total of $11,400 dollars in expenses each year. Hell, he can even spend another $2,800 dollars per year on miscellaneous items, which leaves him with $800 at the end of the year. Now, he invests this $800 in a mutual fund with an interest rate of 8% each year (typically, the rate is 11%, but 3% was subtracted due to inflation). That means that he will have about $362,000 dollars in his account by the time he retires at 65. If Bob starts living off his mutual fund from the time he retires, and withdraws $18,000 each year, he'll have $1,139,000 in his account at the time of his death at the age of 85. So even if you work a minimum wage job, you can still become a millionaire; if you were a savvy investor, you could easily double your income. All you need is a bit of frugality -- it's not hard. The poor have the capacity to help themselves if they so wish -- my tax money shouldn't be going to some could-be millionaires.

It's kind of cute that you think in 47 years there'll be zero inflation. In planning for my retirement I put 25% away, and I doubt I'll have enough.

Let's say that Bob starts working when he's 18 years old. He earns, say $6.00 dollars per hour. He works for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 50 weeks per year. In total, he would then earn $15,000 dollars per year. With that $15,000 dollars, let's assume that he spends $400 on food each month and $550 on rent, which means a total of $11,400 dollars in expenses each year. Hell, he can even spend another $2,800 dollars per year on miscellaneous items, which leaves him with $800 at the end of the year. Now, he invests this $800 in a mutual fund with an interest rate of 8% each year (typically, the rate is 11%, but 3% was subtracted due to inflation). That means that he will have about $362,000 dollars in his account by the time he retires at 65. If Bob starts living off his mutual fund from the time he retires, and withdraws $18,000 each year, he'll have $1,139,000 in his account at the time of his death at the age of 85. So even if you work a minimum wage job, you can still become a millionaire; if you were a savvy investor, you could easily double your income. All you need is a bit of frugality -- it's not hard. The poor have the capacity to help themselves if they so wish -- my tax money shouldn't be going to some could-be millionaires.

A dead millionaire;)

His wages would also increase by a comprable amount. For the sake of simplicity, I assumed no inflation, and took 3% off the mutual bond returns to account for that. Currently, they yield around 14% -- I opted for 8% to reflect the reality of inflation.

except that wage increases haven't kept up with inflation for years.

except that wage increases haven't kept up with inflation for years.

He should learn to never assume wages will keep up with inflation.

No kidding, Ever heard of income taxes?

They are not applicable to those who live below the poverty line.

His wages would also increase by a comprable amount. For the sake of simplicity, I assumed no inflation, and took 3% off the mutual bond returns to account for that. Currently, they yield around 14% -- I opted for 8% to reflect the reality of inflation.

except that wage increases haven't kept up with inflation for years.

He should learn to never assume wages will keep up with inflation.

And anyway, MTAE, in your ideal world, would there even be a minimum wage?

They are not applicable to those who live below the poverty line.

But FICA is, an that is roughly 10% of someone's paycheck. And then State Income tax, and sales tax and...

I shudder to think what would become of this "millionaire" if he ever decides to have kids too. They're a money pit.

But FICA is, an that is roughly 10% of someone's paycheck. And then State Income tax, and sales tax and...

And assuming Bob even gets benefits, he's probably contributing to those, too.

They are not applicable to those who live below the poverty line.

ever think why it's called a poverty line?

except that wage increases haven't kept up with inflation for years.

No. That's why I subtracted 6% from the amount he would make on his mutual account.

And assuming his rent doesn't go up, he doesn't have to pay any taxes, has no transportation, doesn't get sick, doesn't pay any utilities, never gets involved w/ anyone of the opposite (or same, let's be fair) sex, never does anything but sit at home in the dark, nothing of his ever wears out, etc.

Also minimum wage is $5.25 which is an income of $10,920 annually, that's 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year.

Now shave off Uncle Sam's slice, which for simplicity's sake we'll say is a nice even 25% (which is fairly accurate) and you're down to $8,190 a year to survive on. Now presume this guy spend absurdly little on food at $30 a week, that's $1,560 a year just to eat, which is apparently oatmeal. Down to $6,630. Let's assume his rent is $550 monthly, that's a grand total of $6,600 for a year's housing. Net income for a year? $30.

So tell me how is Mr. Minimum wage supposed to be a millionaire?

SNIP.

So this is how you justify your views? With bullshit economics?

The minimum living wage in New Jersey is around $28,000 per year. In most states Bob is broke, unhealthy, and definitely won't live to see 85.

They are not applicable to those who live below the poverty line.

They still get taken out. You just get them back at the end of the year, unless you know how to fill out the paperwork exactly. Then there's fica, etc.

And by the time you retire, a million dollars is worth...oh, about $100,000 or so. That's enoughto live off of for, say, seven years if you're continually frugal. OK, maybe $200,000, but still...people don't become millionaires off of minimum wage jobs.

Let's run through this here.

Bob makes $6/hr - for 40 hours a week, that's $240. Even with ten hours of overtime, he's earning $330/week. At 50 weeks a year, he's earning $16,500 per year. If he never runs his air conditioner, he dies of heat stroke and never sleeps, so we'll say he runs his air conditioner and his heater in winter. That plus rent at, say, $550/month, means he probably spends $650/month on rent and electric. We'll say he doesn't have a car and takes the bus to work. That's another $75/month or so. I'll also say he doesn't have cable or internet and that his only phone is a prepaid phone. I'll list that as $25/month.

He has to eat sometime. Groceries may run $100/month. So far, we're up to $850/month. That $16,500/year works out to...$1,375/month, and I'll assume he gets to keep $1,000 of that a month. That's $150 left over, right? If he wants to save $150/month and outpace inflation by 8%, we'll assume that he never gets sick, never has an accident, and never has anything he needs replaced. He can save $1,800/year.

Now let's throw in health insurance. If he's lucky, he can get a plan for $80/month, assuming his employer has something like that (or even if they don't.) Even if it's pre-tax, he still has only $90 or so left each month. We're also assuming that he has no hobbies, never dates, doesn't have any kids or animals, and all his hobbies are free. That's one hell of an assumption.

Sure, it can be done. Sure, someone can work like hell and become a millionaire on $6/hour. Is it likely? Hardly. Considering all the things on my plate, I doubt I can become a millionaire on $35k/year. Then again, I like my digital cable, I have a dog, two cats, and a bird, and I'm getting married here in a month and a half. People have lives. Lives cost money.

I see. You could find no flaw in my argument, so you simply chose to insult me. This model is easily applicable to "the real world" -- hell, it should have been $3,000,000 if I didn't want to take the lowest possible bound.

find no flaws? Im an economist son, ill let the rest tear your plan to shreds.

you cannot become a millionaire on minimum wage. and if you could, whats the point of living in abject poverty to have that title?

Heh, MeansToAnEnd has been pwned.

This is more likely:

Bob gets his first job flipping burgers at McDonalds. They don't need him for 10 hours a day. Maybe he'll get 4-6 hours, just enough to make getting a second job difficult. Maybe, if he lives in a crappy part of town in the Midwest, he MIGHT find a crappy apartment for $550 a month. Until the landlord raises the rent.

Bob gets sick of flipping fries and goes to college. It's not on the bus line, so he buys a crap car, and has to spend big bucks to the mechanic to keep it running part of the time. His part time job pays barely enough so he doesn't starve, and he graduates with $$,$$$ in student loans.

All this assumes that Bob stays healthy and it ignores the large credit card debt Bob racks up in college.

that's 40 hours a week

If someone wants to work their way up to becoming a millionaire, that means that they should work more than 8 hours a day. It's not hard to work 10 hours a day -- in many places, people work 14 hours a day. I was being fair with the figures.

Now shave off Uncle Sam's slice, which for simplicity's sake we'll say is a nice even 25% (which is fairly accurate)

Please show me any state in which Uncle Sam's slice for people who earn $15,000 dollars or less each year is greater than or equal to 2.5% (1/10 of your estimate). You won't find one because people who live on such low wages don't have to pay taxes or have to pay only very few taxes.

Now presume this guy spend absurdly little on food at $30 a week,

Actually, my assumption was that he should spend $100 dollars a week on food. Nice try, though.

Then why don't you actually refute something rather than just pointing out how easy it would be.

I think the OP was fairly conservative in his estimates. Living at subsistence levels (something the model is clearly supposed to simulate), I think $400/month is a pretty generous food budget.

Plus, there's no need to include a car, because cars aren't necessary. I'm 31 years old, and I've never owned a car. I could never justify the expense.

Where do you live???
Let's say that Bob starts working when he's 18 years old. He earns, say $6.00 dollars per hour. He works for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 50 weeks per year.isn't it 52 weeks?

now here is where I cannot believe it.
In total, he would then earn $15,000 dollars per year. With that $15,000 dollars, let's assume that he spends $400 on food each monthpossible...
and $550 on rent550 on rent... so basically he's living in a closet.
which means a total of $11,400 dollars in expenses each year. Hell, he can even spend another $2,800 dollars per year on miscellaneous items, miscellaneous items being...
frivolous stuff? that's only $7.67 a day to spend on frivolous stuff.

so that can't include bills...
like electricity, Gas (home), water, Insurance, medical (he does get sick from time to time... and then there's checkups), does he have TV? add cable then, does he own a computer? add costs for maintenace, as well as upgrades, Internet? add that. a social life? add that on. a phone? installation bills and such, and does the apartment come furnished? most don't especially in the below $1000/month rent, so he needs furniture... and should they need replacing, light bulbs, dishes, pots & Pans and we're not even counting when the water heater breaks or the Refridge goes out. Does he have a car? then add $120 per month for gas (assuming $3/gallon) car insurance, maintenance, tax, safety check. Credit Cards? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Did he go to college? can you say student Loan? Tuition, Supplies? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

which leaves him with $800 at the end of the year. wrong, it means he's bankrupt!
Now, he invests this $800 in a mutual fund with an interest rate of 8% each year (typically, the rate is 11%, but 3% was subtracted due to inflation). That means that he will have about $362,000 dollars in his account by the time he retires at 65. If Bob starts living off his mutual fund from the time he retires, and withdraws $18,000 each year, he'll have $1,139,000 in his account at the time of his death at the age of 85. So even if you work a minimum wage job, you can still become a millionaire; if you were a savvy investor, you could easily double your income. All you need is a bit of frugality -- it's not hard. The poor have the capacity to help themselves if they so wish -- my tax money shouldn't be going to some could-be millionaires.Right... provided you live at home for all your life. have no semblance of a social life, and do nothing... and I do mean Nothing at all except work and sleep.

and you forgot Federal and State taxes, so you include all your interest earned on all investments as well as savings...

Let's say that Bob starts working when he's 18 years old. He earns, say $6.00 dollars per hour. He works for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 50 weeks per year. In total, he would then earn $15,000 dollars per year. With that $15,000 dollars, let's assume that he spends $400 on food each month and $550 on rent, which means a total of $11,400 dollars in expenses each year. Hell, he can even spend another $2,800 dollars per year on miscellaneous items, which leaves him with $800 at the end of the year. Now, he invests this $800 in a mutual fund with an interest rate of 8% each year (typically, the rate is 11%, but 3% was subtracted due to inflation). That means that he will have about $362,000 dollars in his account by the time he retires at 65. If Bob starts living off his mutual fund from the time he retires, and withdraws $18,000 each year, he'll have $1,139,000 in his account at the time of his death at the age of 85. So even if you work a minimum wage job, you can still become a millionaire; if you were a savvy investor, you could easily double your income. All you need is a bit of frugality -- it's not hard. The poor have the capacity to help themselves if they so wish -- my tax money shouldn't be going to some could-be millionaires.


Allowing for medical and utility bills would have been nice . . .

If someone wants to work their way up to becoming a millionaire, that means that they should work more than 8 hours a day. It's not hard to work 10 hours a day -- in many places, people work 14 hours a day. I was being fair with the figures.



Please show me any state in which Uncle Sam's slice for people who earn $15,000 dollars or less each year is greater than or equal to 2.5% (1/10 of your estimate). You won't find one because people who live on such low wages don't have to pay taxes or have to pay only very few taxes.



Actually, my assumption was that he should spend $100 dollars a week on food. Nice try, though.

Now include electricity, gas, phone, maintenance/fares for whatever transportation, FICA, etc.

How does he get around paying payroll taxes, paying for doctor visits and medicine when he's sick, how does he own a car to get him to and from work on 2,800 in miscellaneous expenses which have to cover clothing, phone bills, gas or oil and electric bills, and all the other little expenses of life which add up to a shitload of money? Do you still live with the folks? I can't understand how you wouldn't even think to take that crap into account otherwise.

That's right I forgot a car and gas, and repairs for the car . . .

That's right I forgot a car and gas, and repairs for the car . . .


Hell, even a bus pass, or maintenance on a bike, or new shoes from walking everywhere.

Now include electricity, gas, phone, maintenance/fares for whatever transportation, FICA, etc.

These are included in the miscellaneous costs. They should not total more than $2,800 dollars per year.

These are included in the miscellaneous costs. They should not total more than $2,800 dollars per year.

Ah no, that might cover his groceries and his clothes, if he gets a deal...

Then why don't you actually refute something rather than just pointing out how easy it would be.

I think the OP was fairly conservative in his estimates. Living at subsistence levels (something the model is clearly supposed to simulate), I think $400/month is a pretty generous food budget.

Plus, there's no need to include a car, because cars aren't necessary. I'm 31 years old, and I've never owned a car. I could never justify the expense.

YOU must live somewhere with a decent bus system, not everyone does.

These are included in the miscellaneous costs. They should not total more than $2,800 dollars per year.

That amounts to $233 per month. My heating gas alone is more than that in the winter.

If someone wants to work their way up to becoming a millionaire, that means that they should work more than 8 hours a day. It's not hard to work 10 hours a day -- in many places, people work 14 hours a day. I was being fair with the figures.



Please show me any state in which Uncle Sam's slice for people who earn $15,000 dollars or less each year is greater than or equal to 2.5% (1/10 of your estimate). You won't find one because people who live on such low wages don't have to pay taxes or have to pay only very few taxes.



Actually, my assumption was that he should spend $100 dollars a week on food. Nice try, though.


You have never lived in poverty have you? The government gets their slice first. They don't give a shit what you make, they get theirs. You can't survive on minimum wage, let alone become a millionaire, I don't care how many hours you work.

Best I've done is working 72 hours in one week, that was an absurd amount of hours, hell I didn't hardly sleep. Tell you what, just for shits and giggles let's figure this dude is fuckin SUPERMAN 80 hours a week, at minimum wage:

He's making a total of $525 weekly like that. Annually he's making $27,300 as pointed out earlier that's below the minimum living wage in many states. Hell at that rate Bob here is making nearly what I am.

And he only had to work 4,160 hours a year to earn that. $20,475 after taxes. $13,875 after rent. $8,675 after food, at your budgeted amount. Now let's figure basic upkeep on his home/furniture and miscellanious expenses for roughly $3,000 a year, hell let's include medical in there. Our boy Bob is down to $5,675 to live on for all other expenses, that's a whooping $109 a week to survive. He'd best pray he never has kids, or smokes, or drinks, or breathes too strenuously.

These are included in the miscellaneous costs. They should not total more than $2,800 dollars per year.

Those are not "miscellaneous costs" those are nessisitys.

These are included in the miscellaneous costs. They should not total more than $2,800 dollars per year.

In what world are you living in? Electricity in a small apartment can be up to $1200/year or more, gas another $600, then include phone $480, water/sewage (anywhere from $240-$1200/year), trash $150, never buys new clothes, replaces his appliances or furniture, repaints, nothing ever breaks, .......

Yeah, you'd be a millionaire. However, you'd never have lived.

They are not applicable to those who live below the poverty line.and calculating who is below the poverty line includes savings as well as investments.

If someone wants to work their way up to becoming a millionaire, that means that they should work more than 8 hours a day. It's not hard to work 10 hours a day -- in many places, people work 14 hours a day. I was being fair with the figures.so speaks someone who hasn't done it. for years, due to short staffing and project deadlines, I've put in 80 hours a week. it's tough and not something anyone can do for their entire life!

Please show me any state in which Uncle Sam's slice for people who earn $15,000 dollars or less each year is greater than or equal to 2.5% (1/10 of your estimate). You won't find one because people who live on such low wages don't have to pay taxes or have to pay only very few taxes. and it's not just wages, but investments as well. your sample will have Bob paying taxes because he will be bumped over the poverty line. Did you look at tax forms? it includes interest earned through investments when factoring Taxable Income.

Actually, my assumption was that he should spend $100 dollars a week on food. Nice try, though.and clothes? household supplies like trash bags, cleaning supplies... you don't factor those in.

Then why don't you actually refute something rather than just pointing out how easy it would be.

I think the OP was fairly conservative in his estimates. Living at subsistence levels (something the model is clearly supposed to simulate), I think $400/month is a pretty generous food budget.

Plus, there's no need to include a car, because cars aren't necessary. I'm 31 years old, and I've never owned a car. I could never justify the expense.

In the places where you can get by on 15000per year you need a car. You can get by without in NYC as long as you've got a good income, but not in Wyoming or Nebraska. Shit tends to be far apart over there.

Let's say that Bob starts working when he's 18 years old. He earns, say $6.00 dollars per hour. He works for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 50 weeks per year. In total, he would then earn $15,000 dollars per year. With that $15,000 dollars, let's assume that he spends $400 on food each month and $550 on rent, which means a total of $11,400 dollars in expenses each year. Hell, he can even spend another $2,800 dollars per year on miscellaneous items, which leaves him with $800 at the end of the year. Now, he invests this $800 in a mutual fund with an interest rate of 8% each year (typically, the rate is 11%, but 3% was subtracted due to inflation). That means that he will have about $362,000 dollars in his account by the time he retires at 65. If Bob starts living off his mutual fund from the time he retires, and withdraws $18,000 each year, he'll have $1,139,000 in his account at the time of his death at the age of 85. So even if you work a minimum wage job, you can still become a millionaire; if you were a savvy investor, you could easily double your income. All you need is a bit of frugality -- it's not hard. The poor have the capacity to help themselves if they so wish -- my tax money shouldn't be going to some could-be millionaires.

Yes the poor do. According to your story here you can live like utter shit your whole life so that on the day you die you can become a millionaire. :)

try it. see if it works, tellus when your 85. Dont bother me until then thanks

In what world are you living in? Electricity in a small apartment can be up to $1200/year or more, gas another $600

I assume that Bob is quite adept at effectively utlizing a fire-place and can gather brush at no price to himself. That shaves off a bunch of costs, doesn't it?

These are included in the miscellaneous costs. They should not total more than $2,800 dollars per year.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

WHERE DO YOU LIVE?! The cost of living in your area must be measured in the Pennies!!

Let's say that Bob starts working when he's 18 years old. He earns, say $6.00 dollars per hour. He works for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 50 weeks per year. In total, he would then earn $15,000 dollars per year. With that $15,000 dollars, let's assume that he spends $400 on food each month and $550 on rent, which means a total of $11,400 dollars in expenses each year. Hell, he can even spend another $2,800 dollars per year on miscellaneous items, which leaves him with $800 at the end of the year.

Food and rent are all the expenses there is? No electric, water, heating bills? Car payments and insurance? Clothing? Medical treatments? All this isn't going to be "miscellaneous".

I assume that Bob is quite adept at effectively utlizing a fire-place and can gather brush at no price to himself. That shaves off a bunch of costs, doesn't it?

If Bobs place has a fire place he's paying a hell of a lot more that $550 a month . . .

Are you realy this stupid?

isn't it 52 weeks?
See, he even gave the guy vacation time.
550 on rent... so basically he's living in a closet.
You assume he lives alone. I share a 2 bedroom apartment in one of the most expensive cities in North America, and my half of the rent is $600.
frivolous stuff? that's only $7.67 a day to spend on frivolous stuff.
Well he is poor. He can't afford a lot of frivolity.
so that can't include bills...
like electricity, Gas (home), water,
My heat and water are included in my rent. Electricty I have to pay myself. If I take that out of the frivoltiy budget, I give up 2 days worth of frivolity each month to pay my power bill.
Insurance
A lot of renters go without insurance.
medical (he does get sick from time to time... and then there's checkups)
Many people skip this, as well. Plus, if this guy's outside the US, universal healthcare helps him out. And, aren't there programs for poor Americans, too?
does he have TV? add cable then
Cable is a luxury. He can get by with broadcast (as many people do).
does he own a computer? add costs for maintenace, as well as upgrades, Internet?
If he had the skills to use a computer, he wouldn't have a minimum wage job.
a social life? add that on.
Friends don't cost money.
a phone?
Not strictly necessary, but we could easily count that as part of the rent budget, given how generous that was.
does the apartment come furnished? most don't especially in the below $1000/month rent, so he needs furniture.
Used furniture is really cheap. That's what yard sales are for.
and should they need replacing, light bulbs, dishes, pots & Pans and we're not even counting when the water heater breaks or the Refridge goes out.
If he's renting, most of those aren't his responsibility. Dishes, sure, but dishes last a really long time.
Does he have a car?
Of course not. Cars are an extreme luxury. I don't have a car.
Credit Cards?
Anyone can get a credit card. I got one by filling out an application and listing my annual income as $0. He doesn't need one, though, bec ause he doesn't spend any money.
Did he go to college?
If he went to college, you think he's going to work for minimum wage his whole life?

I assume that Bob is quite adept at effectively utlizing a fire-place and can gather brush at no price to himself. That shaves off a bunch of costs, doesn't it?

FIREPLACE!!!

in a $550 per month rental!?!?

*falls off of chair laughting.*


not everyone has a fireplace... and he walks to gather the brush... and then carries it back... he'll need enough brush to fill a large room to have a fire hot enough and long enough to cook one meal. most people use wood not, shrubs and bushes to get a decent, useful fire!

I assume that Bob is quite adept at effectively utlizing a fire-place and can gather brush at no price to himself. That shaves off a bunch of costs, doesn't it?

Nope. Now you have to pay for maintenance/purchase of the tools to do so. Chainsaw, axe, replacement parts, transportation of 6 cord of wood, etc. That only covers heat. Unless you're planning on cooking by the hearth. And assuming you can continue to do so in those senior years.

FIREPLACE!!!

in a $550 per month rental!?!?

*falls off of chair laughting.*


not everyone has a fireplace... and he walks to gather the brush... and then carries it back... he'll need enough brush to fill a large room to have a fire hot enough and long enough to cook one meal. most people use wood not, shrubs and bushes to get a decent, useful fire!

Pretty much, it takes a minimum of six cord of wood to heat a small, well insulated cabin for just the winter months. One cord is 128 cubic feet.

Pretty much, it takes a minimum of six cord of wood to heat a small, well insulated cabin for just the winter months. One cord is 128 cubic feet.

IME, most older and low rent places have crappy insulation, so Bob would either have to buy insulation, or more wood.

IME, most older and low rent places have crappy insulation, so Bob would either have to buy insulation, or more wood.

I was being "generous". :)

See, he even gave the guy vacation time.

You assume he lives alone. I share a 2 bedroom apartment in one of the most expensive cities in North America, and my half of the rent is $600.your HALF of the rent is $600 which means that the RENT is about $1200

Well he is poor. He can't afford a lot of frivolity.at minimum wage? can't even afford food.

My heat and water are included in my rent. Electricty I have to pay myself. If I take that out of the frivoltiy budget, I give up 2 days worth of frivolity each month to pay my power bill.which makes the Rent siginifcantly higher than $550! I pay $700 and the only thing included is Water.

A lot of renters go without insurance.alot of renters don't realize it's included in the rent. so if it's in the rent... guess what... it's way over $550!

Many people skip this, as well. Plus, if this guy's outside the US, universal healthcare helps him out. And, aren't there programs for poor Americans, too?your plan still fails.

Cable is a luxury. He can get by with broadcast (as many people do).so he does have a TV... he gotta buy it, and then increase his electricity.

If he had the skills to use a computer, he wouldn't have a minimum wage job.BWAHAHAHAHA!

Friends don't cost money.yeah, he can FREELOAD off of them... but then they won't be his friends for long.

Not strictly necessary, but we could easily count that as part of the rent budget, given how generous that was.$550 rent with a $7.67 a day budget!!! that's Generous?!?!

Used furniture is really cheap. That's what yard sales are for.then he needs a car to transport that furniture home!

If he's renting, most of those aren't his responsibility. Dishes, sure, but dishes last a really long time.they are if the cost is only $550. so far, the rent seems more like $1500

Of course not. Cars are an extreme luxury. I don't have a car.which limits the furniture he can get,

Anyone can get a credit card. I got one by filling out an application and listing my annual income as $0. He doesn't need one, though, because he doesn't spend any money.LOL.... and how much in APR and fees are you paying... remember, you only gave bob a $7.67 a day budget which also includes his bills!

If he went to college, you think he's going to work for minimum wage his whole life?so far his whole life is looking to be a couple of years then he burns through his savings and starts starving. or else, he gets kicked out of his cheepo apartment becuase he's late with the rent and is now homeless.

Bob cannot afford to buy wood, he must cut it himself. Thus he has to live in a fairly large forest. Not to mention Bob needs to be a stud! Workin 80 hours a week and then going out and chopping wood.

Nope. Now you have to pay for maintenance/purchase of the tools to do so. Chainsaw, axe, replacement parts, transportation of 6 cord of wood, etc. That only covers heat. Unless you're planning on cooking by the hearth. And assuming you can continue to do so in those senior years.

add on the maintenance, and since it's now been confirmed that BOB is uneducated and unskilled... that maintenance has to be hired. ok I can see bob taking care of his fireplace, in his cheepo apartment himself.

but then I also see bob being hit with bankrupcy as his poorly maintained Fireplace burns his apartment down.

Bob cannot afford to buy wood, he must cut it himself. Thus he has to live in a fairly large forest. Not to mention Bob needs to be a stud! Workin 80 hours a week and then going out and chopping wood.

and carrying that wood back himself. remember, no car.

and carrying that wood back himself. remember, no car.

So I take it Bob lives in a hunter-gatherer society?

So I take it Bob lives in a hunter-gatherer society?

Which means MTAE is right, Bob really doesn't need much money to live on, everything can be found in the forest with the extensive bus line.

add on the maintenance, and since it's now been confirmed that BOB is uneducated and unskilled... that maintenance has to be hired. ok I can see bob taking care of his fireplace, in his cheepo apartment himself.

but then I also see bob being hit with bankrupcy as his poorly maintained Fireplace burns his apartment down.

and no insurance.

can I say as a professional financial planner that your "theory" is full of shit?

I can?

okay... wait, I just did.

Let's say that Bob starts working when he's 18 years old. He earns, say $6.00 dollars per hour. He works for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 50 weeks per year. In total, he would then earn $15,000 dollars per year. With that $15,000 dollars, let's assume that he spends $400 on food each month and $550 on rent, which means a total of $11,400 dollars in expenses each year. Hell, he can even spend another $2,800 dollars per year on miscellaneous items, which leaves him with $800 at the end of the year. Now, he invests this $800 in a mutual fund with an interest rate of 8% each year (typically, the rate is 11%, but 3% was subtracted due to inflation). That means that he will have about $362,000 dollars in his account by the time he retires at 65. If Bob starts living off his mutual fund from the time he retires, and withdraws $18,000 each year, he'll have $1,139,000 in his account at the time of his death at the age of 85. So even if you work a minimum wage job, you can still become a millionaire; if you were a savvy investor, you could easily double your income. All you need is a bit of frugality -- it's not hard. The poor have the capacity to help themselves if they so wish -- my tax money shouldn't be going to some could-be millionaires.

stupid.

yes the numbers add up, maybe, but a) life ain't that simple (first thing that springs to mind is this hypothetical person has no kids, and you know how fucking much they cost??), and b) the guy's dead.

your HALF of the rent is $600 which means that the RENT is about $1200
Right, but we only need to worry about his share of the rent, and my rent is inflated by the expensive city I'm in plus the extra bedroom.
which makes the Rent siginifcantly higher than $550! I pay $700 and the only thing included is Water.
Are you listening? I'm using my deal as a guideline, and my rent (which is $600) includes these things.
alot of renters don't realize it's included in the rent. so if it's in the rent... guess what... it's way over $550!
Way to completely ignore the postied conditions.
so he does have a TV... he gotta buy it, and then increase his electricity.
I have a TV and a computer. My monthly power bill is $26, which I split with my co-habitant.
yeah, he can FREELOAD off of them... but then they won't be his friends for long.
Maybe they don't have money, either. Why do you assume friends cost money? Because you only know how to have fun if you're spending money?

Have them over for dinner. Then they do the same. Net cost to anyone: $0. You could form a book club. Buy books used - $3 buys your entertainment for the week.

Clearly you've never been poor. You don't know how.
$550 rent with a $7.67 a day budget!!! that's Generous?!?!
Yes. Thanks for not paying attention again.

If my rent is $600/month, and I'm not making any real effort to economise, then he should be able to do much better than me.

Check your local classified ads for some cheap apartments. Say a 1 bedroom. Now imagine our subject shares that with someone, so his rent is now half of the total. I bet it's less than $550.
then he needs a car to transport that furniture home!
Again, clearly you've never been poor. You can carry furniture home as long as you're travelling less than a mile or so. Get a buddy, or have your roommate help (after all - it's his furniture, too).
they are if the cost is only $550. so far, the rent seems more like $1500
Have you ever tried to rent an apartment? These things are often included, and you continue to assume that this guy lives alone (which is a horribly inefficient way to live).
which limits the furniture he can get
Beggars can't be choosers.
LOL.... and how much in APR and fees are you paying... remember, you only gave bob a $7.67 a day budget which also includes his bills!
Which is why he doesn't need a credit card.
so far his whole life is looking to be a couple of years then he burns through his savings and starts starving. or else, he gets kicked out of his cheepo apartment becuase he's late with the rent and is now homeless.
Only if he's as grossly irresponsible as you seem to think everyone is.

can I say as a professional financial planner that your "theory" is full of shit?

I can?

okay... wait, I just did.

the premise is he doesnt want to fund social insurance

but on another thread he wants the taxpayer to fund a eugenics campaign.

you couldnt make it up.

How does he get around paying payroll taxes, paying for doctor visits and medicine when he's sick, how does he own a car to get him to and from work on 2,800 in miscellaneous expenses which have to cover clothing, phone bills, gas or oil and electric bills, and all the other little expenses of life which add up to a shitload of money? Do you still live with the folks? I can't understand how you wouldn't even think to take that crap into account otherwise.

another important consideration the OP left out: mortgage.

get in debt (ie to buy a place to live or a means to travel/car) and you're kinda fucked after then...
yes i know the OP had rent but rent =/= debt (wow i'm making it sound like renting is great...)

the premise is he doesnt want to fund social insurance

but on another thread he wants the taxpayer to fund a eugenics campaign.

you couldnt make it.

hey I am anti-welfare state too, but I don't even begin to pretend like he does that a minimum wage earner can do much more than starve, work, pay taxes, and starve some more.

another important consideration the OP left out: mortgage.

get in debt (ie to buy a place to live or a means to travel/car) and you're kinda fucked after then...
yes i know the OP had rent but rent =/= debt (wow i'm making it sound like renting is great...)

Mortgage? Not for Poor Bob. He can only manage a minimum wage job, he has no right to own a home.

<snip>
Out of curiosity, where do you live?

Way to completely ignore the postied conditions.

sadly the "posted conditions" are a bit too simple for real life

Only if he's as grossly irresponsible as you seem to think everyone is.
life tends to throw you shit. being personally irrisponsible isn't the only way things can go tits up in life

Out of curiosity, where do you live?
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. Outside Manhattan, the most expensive real estate in North America.

http://van-housing.blogspot.com/2006/03/average-house-prices-to-reach-12.html

Incidentally, I just found a 740 sq.ft. apartment for rent in Houston, TX for $450/month - gas included. If Bob shares that apartment with someone, his share of the rent is down to $225.

As I said before, $550 was pretty generous.

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. Outside Manhattan, the most expensive real estate in North America.

http://van-housing.blogspot.com/2006/03/average-house-prices-to-reach-12.html

Incidentally, I just found a 740 sq.ft. apartment for rent in Houston, TX for $450/month - gas included. If Bob shares that apartment with someone, his share of the rent is down to $225.

As I said before, $550 was pretty generous.
Interesting. I live in Sacramento, and I don't consider cost of living to be that high (possibly because I moved here from the bay area, where cost of living is astronomical). I live in a one bedroom, 720-odd square foot apartment with my boyfriend, and utilities are not included with rent. My share of rent alone is $440. Water, sewage, trash collection, and electricity probably average out to somewhere around $110 per month over the course of the year. And it's not even a particularly nice apartment.

Maybe I should move to Vancouver.

So I take it Bob lives in a hunter-gatherer society?I guess so, since MTAE says no car and he gathers his own wood. but then he does go grocery shopping so no hunting...

Right, but we only need to worry about his share of the rent, and my rent is inflated by the expensive city I'm in plus the extra bedroom.Funny, I don't see bob with a room-mate in the scenario. and you realize that a room mate doesn't alway mean less cost.

Are you listening? I'm using my deal as a guideline, and my rent (which is $600) includes these things.your HALF of the rent is $600, but THE RENT is $1200. you go look for a $550 per month rental with the same coverage.

Way to completely ignore the postied conditions.just like the posted conditions ignore Real Life? you think it can be done, you try it. use his budgeting plan, I bet you'll be digging in to your unused portion of your paychecks within two months.

I have a TV and a computer. My monthly power bill is $26, which I split with my co-habitant.that you split. the key words. now add in your telephone. staples (not groceries) bet you'll bust that budget.

Maybe they don't have money, either. Why do you assume friends cost money? Because you only know how to have fun if you're spending money?

Have them over for dinner. Then they do the same. Net cost to anyone: $0. which increases Grocery Costs since now you're not just cooking for yourself. add the same to them. their tastes may not run the same as yours. Smunkee is on a Gluten free diet, that increases cost... oh wait, yes, don't invite that person... nice friendship...

allergies, sorry, can't come over then...

diabetic? maybe next time...

You could form a book club. Buy books used - $3 buys your entertainment for the week.never heard of a Book Club that only covers used books.

Clearly you've never been poor. You don't know how. :rolleyes:

Yes. Thanks for not paying attention again.for someone who claims I'm not paying attention...
400 per month = 4800
550 per month = 6600
so that total of just groceries and Rent = 11400 a year.

now he quotes "which means a total of $11,400 dollars in expenses each year. Hell, he can even spend another $2,800 dollars per year on miscellaneous items, "

so divide 2800 by 365 days = $7.67/day and he doesn't make any adustment for bills, so that is for everything outside of Groceries and rent, he has a budget of approx. 230 a month.


If my rent is $600/month, and I'm not making any real effort to economise, then he should be able to do much better than me. go ahead. track your budget for one month without changing any habits, so keep your activities normal. I bet you'll spend over $630... that's including Rent, $400 for grocieries and 230 for everything else.

Check your local classified ads for some cheap apartments. Say a 1 bedroom. Now imagine our subject shares that with someone, so his rent is now half of the total. I bet it's less than $550.Please point to where THE PLAN includes a roommate? then you must factor in that the Roommate will be doing the same thing... unless you plan on Freeloading off of the roommate...

Again, clearly you've never been poor. You can carry furniture home as long as you're travelling less than a mile or so. Get a buddy, or have your roommate help (after all - it's his furniture, too).gee when I get buddies to help move, I usually treat them to lunch.... even Mcdonalds. if it requires the use of the car, I chip in something for gas as well. but then I treat my friends as friends. not as indentured slaves that don't need thanks of some sort.

Have you ever tried to rent an apartment? These things are often included, and you continue to assume that this guy lives alone (which is a horribly inefficient way to live).I am renting. by myself. and I did rent with a roommate. your point?

Beggars can't be choosers.which means he's paying for substandard stuff and can end up paying more than less.

Which is why he doesn't need a credit card.which is why... if you WERE PAYING ATTENTION, I said "IF"

Only if he's as grossly irresponsible as you seem to think everyone is.
you try living on that proposed budget. see how long you last.

this is equivalent to exercising to prolong my life. I could, but it's awful. Why be miserable for longer?

exercising increases the rate of oxygen to your tissues, and oxygen is ultimately poisonous. by further analogy, one might say being poor is poisonous.

but i might have a hard time backing that up

I guess so, since MTAE says no car and he gathers his own wood. but then he does go grocery shopping so no hunting.

I just want to mention that I was joking when I suggested that he should use fire-wood for both heat and light. I guess it wasn't a very good joke because it may have fit in with my more outlandish ideas.

I just want to mention that I was joking when I suggested that he should use fire-wood for both heat and light. I guess it wasn't a very good joke because it may have fit in with my more outlandish ideas.

Bullshit.

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. Outside Manhattan, the most expensive real estate in North America.

http://van-housing.blogspot.com/2006/03/average-house-prices-to-reach-12.html

Incidentally, I just found a 740 sq.ft. apartment for rent in Houston, TX for $450/month - gas included. If Bob shares that apartment with someone, his share of the rent is down to $225.

As I said before, $550 was pretty generous.

But, Bob had better be careful about that apartment. If it's in the Suburban Northwest just North of Willowbrook (my area), then he should be fine, because it's a nice place with a low crime rate. However, if said apartment is in the city proper, he should be careful... Especially if it's in Southwest Houston.

Poor Bob, he could be murdered by a ravenous group of pre-teens armed with pocket knives when he's just out watering his garden on a Saturday morning.

But, Bob had better be careful about that apartment. If it's in the Suburban Northwest just North of Willowbrook (my area), then he should be fine, because it's a nice place with a low crime rate. However, if said apartment is in the city proper, he should be careful... Especially if it's in Southwest Houston.

Poor Bob, he could be murdered by a ravenous group of pre-teens armed with pocket knives when he's just out watering his garden on a Saturday morning.
Heh.

As it happens, it was SW Houston.

I live 2000 miles from Houston - I know nothing at all about the city, and choose both the city and the quadrant at random just to find an apartment quicker.

But I easily beat the $550 threshold.

Heh.

As it happens, it was SW Houston.

I live 2000 miles from Houston - I know nothing at all about the city, and choose both the city and the quadrant at random just to find an apartment quicker.

But I easily beat the $550 threshold.

I noticed your location, so I know how far you are from the city.

But, you did pick a good one, because the overall rent here is really cheap for an urban area (over five million people). But, like I said, SW Houston is absolutely horrible. It looks nice and peachy on the outside, but the crime is just outrageous.

Silly Bob. Should he run the risk of being murdered on his front lawn, or should he live fifty miles North, far away from his job, so he can be safe?

Heh.

As it happens, it was SW Houston.

I live 2000 miles from Houston - I know nothing at all about the city, and choose both the city and the quadrant at random just to find an apartment quicker.

But I easily beat the $550 threshold.

And after sharing a 740 sq. ft. apartment with someone for ... oh, say a year, Bob will either go crazy and kill the other person, in which case his lifetime expenses get picked up by the Lone Star State, or the other guy kills him, in which case he doesn't care. :p

Poor, poor Bob. He'd have a horrible life, and you damned well know that, MeansToAnEnd.

By the way, I do have to point out one thing: most fast-food restaurants--or at least Wendy's, anyway--typically start you out about two dollars or so above minimum wage. At least, that's where I've started, at 7.75. Also, you guys aren't factoring in raises, probable promotions--if he stays with that job THAT long, he'll become a manager eventually--and such and such.

But then, that's one of the many problems with calculating an entire life's worth of money. You can't, because life isn't that predictable.

Alright, lets see. So he'll be a millionaire when he dies, after cutting himself off from all pleasures during his entire life? Wonderful!

So you figured in rent (which is a little low) and food (which is a little high).
Now lets see what you forgot.

electricity, heat, hot water, gas, furniture, clothing, cooking supplies, car, gas, phone, medical care, insurance (car insurance is mandatory, heath insurance is mandatory in MA), medicine, potential for children, supplies such as light bulbs, repair costs for things such as a broken fridge and the like, laundry costs.

No car? then include public transportation costs, or car pool costs, or what have you.

hell, my rent is 660 a month, with heat and hot water included (in a shit area of the city). Electricity was 30 per person last month, groceries are 80 a month per person, and I have three roommates. Four people is the most economical you can swing, and it STILL would not fit into your formula

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. Outside Manhattan, the most expensive real estate in North America.
cost of real estate says very little about cost of living. Yes, Vancouver is expensive, but it is not the second most expensive city to live in in North America. Only the second most to buy land in.

Funny, I don't see bob with a room-mate in the scenario. and you realize that a room mate doesn't alway mean less cost.
Nor does the scenario say he doesn't have a roommate. In my experience, having one is one of the best ways to reduce costs.
your HALF of the rent is $600, but THE RENT is $1200. you go look for a $550 per month rental with the same coverage.
Already did - that was the point of the Houston exercise. Plus, there's no reason Bob has to live alone.
just like the posted conditions ignore Real Life? you think it can be done, you try it. use his budgeting plan, I bet you'll be digging in to your unused portion of your paychecks within two months.
Since actually following this plan would significantly alter my lifestyle, I'll pass.
that you split. the key words. now add in your telephone. staples (not groceries) bet you'll bust that budget.
How do you not count staples in your grocery budget?

As for the phone, I'll opt for a cheap pay-as-you-go cellphone. Bob doesn't need to make many calls, and he probably can't afford a landline.
which increases Grocery Costs since now you're not just cooking for yourself. add the same to them. their tastes may not run the same as yours. Smunkee is on a Gluten free diet, that increases cost... oh wait, yes, don't invite that person... nice friendship...
Way to assume the worst case scenario. I'm intolerant to lactose, but I don't make my friends cook me special dishes.
never heard of a Book Club that only covers used books.
First time for everything. Books aren't better when they're new.
for someone who claims I'm not paying attention...
400 per month = 4800
I think that's generous. I think $320 is doable.
550 per month = 6600
As demonstrated by my Houston apartment, that's really generous.
so that total of just groceries and Rent = 11400 a year.
Or using my revised figures, $6540/year.
so divide 2800 by 365 days = $7.67/day and he doesn't make any adustment for bills, so that is for everything outside of Groceries and rent, he has a budget of approx. 230 a month.
$7/day adds up, and again I think he'll have a lot more than that if he lives a bit more efficiently.
go ahead. track your budget for one month without changing any habits, so keep your activities normal. I bet you'll spend over $630... that's including Rent, $400 for grocieries and 230 for everything else.
Of course I will. I don't live a subsistence-level lifestyle.
Please point to where THE PLAN includes a roommate? then you must factor in that the Roommate will be doing the same thing... unless you plan on Freeloading off of the roommate...
All I used the roommate for was to split the rent and utilities. Would you like to point out where the plan excludes the possibility of a roommate?

And, if Bob does live alone, then he can look for a studio apartment instead of a 1 bedroom. Let's go find one of those in Houston:

$350/month. 9707 South Gessner Drive Hey, look - I just freed up $2400/year.

Actually, there was another thing I forgot to point out: Employee meals and waste food.

See, at Wendy's--and presumably most other fastfood places--you get an employee meal, which is essentially a free 7.50 you can spend on anything. This is a perk for the employees, so it's not taxed. You can get a lot of food for just that much if you spend it carefully.

Furthermore, whenever a fastfood restaurant closes, they throw away whatever is left. For Wendy's, this tends to be up to ten to twelve pieces of chicken--varied between the Homestyle Chicken, Spicy Chicken, Grilled, and Crispy Chicken--not to mention the buns, the bacon, and whatever other miscellanious food items a restaurant has. For example, there are the potatoes and the Frescata bread at Wendy's. I've taken the whole load home one time, and that can equal up to a week's worth of food if taken care of properly.

Admittedly, it's not the healthiest food to eat, and you'd probably not live to 65 if you ate that crap everyday, but it is a food source, and one we should not forget.

And after sharing a 740 sq. ft. apartment with someone for ... oh, say a year, Bob will either go crazy and kill the other person, in which case his lifetime expenses get picked up by the Lone Star State, or the other guy kills him, in which case he doesn't care. :p
My apartment's actually a bit smaller than that, and I share it.

And it's in an old building where the pipes burst from time to time. 3 times my apartment has been flooded. I've been here for 4 years.

As any honest and mature person can tell, the aim is not to have money in itself, but to have the good life.

This juvenile formula for wretchedness hardly accomplishes that end.

My apartment's actually a bit smaller than that, and I share it.

And it's in an old building where the pipes burst from time to time. 3 times my apartment has been flooded. I've been here for 4 years.

And do you have insurance to cover it? Have you had to replace anything each time that happened?

Oh, I forgot any possible left over fries, chicken nuggest, and chicken strips. Also, the only things that are thrown out are those that can't be kept and sold the next day. So it's not like we're throwing out all sorts of vegetables, condiments, and whatnot. Not even the chili: that's placed in sanitary plastic buckets and rapi-kooled in the walk-in fridge for the next day. (Why we can't do the same for the potatoes and just heat them up the next day, I don't know.)

Though, considering this food is perfectly safe, why they do not just wrap it all up carefully and give it to charity instead, I don't know either.

Actually, there was another thing I forgot to point out: Employee meals and waste food.

See, at Wendy's--and presumably most other fastfood places--you get an employee meal, which is essentially a free 7.50 you can spend on anything. This is a perk for the employees, so it's not taxed. You can get a lot of food for just that much if you spend it carefully.

Furthermore, whenever a fastfood restaurant closes, they throw away whatever is left. For Wendy's, this tends to be up to ten to twelve pieces of chicken--varied between the Homestyle Chicken, Spicy Chicken, Grilled, and Crispy Chicken--not to mention the buns, the bacon, and whatever other miscellanious food items a restaurant has. For example, there are the potatoes and the Frescata bread at Wendy's. I've taken the whole load home one time, and that can equal up to a week's worth of food if taken care of properly.

Admittedly, it's not the healthiest food to eat, and you'd probably not live to 65 if you ate that crap everyday, but it is a food source, and one we should not forget.

oh I lived on waste food for about a year, it was great, I gained 70lbs and never ever want to see another peice of shrimp in my life.....but when you make $9,000 a year, you kinda have to eat what was headed for the trash.

As any honest and mature person can tell, the aim is not to have money in itself, but to have the good life.

This juvenile formula for wretchedness hardly accomplishes that end.

Alright, lets see. So he'll be a millionaire when he dies, after cutting himself off from all pleasures during his entire life? Wonderful!


*claps you both* :)

Actually, there was another thing I forgot to point out: Employee meals and waste food.

See, at Wendy's--and presumably most other fastfood places--you get an employee meal, which is essentially a free 7.50 you can spend on anything. This is a perk for the employees, so it's not taxed. You can get a lot of food for just that much if you spend it carefully.

Furthermore, whenever a fastfood restaurant closes, they throw away whatever is left. For Wendy's, this tends to be up to ten to twelve pieces of chicken--varied between the Homestyle Chicken, Spicy Chicken, Grilled, and Crispy Chicken--not to mention the buns, the bacon, and whatever other miscellanious food items a restaurant has. For example, there are the potatoes and the Frescata bread at Wendy's. I've taken the whole load home one time, and that can equal up to a week's worth of food if taken care of properly.

Admittedly, it's not the healthiest food to eat, and you'd probably not live to 65 if you ate that crap everyday, but it is a food source, and one we should not forget.

oh good. He can spend the money he saves on food to pay for his heart surgery and Coumadin.

How about when he needs glasses (as most elderly do, assuming he doesn't need them already)

Alright, lets see. So he'll be a millionaire when he dies, after cutting himself off from all pleasures during his entire life? Wonderful!

And since he was always too poor to afford kids or a family, the state gets the million bucks when he dies. Brilliant! The system pays for itself.

oh good. He can spend the money he saves on food to pay for his heart surgery and Coumadin.

How about when he needs glasses (as most elderly do, assuming he doesn't need them already)

There are charities that would provide those, you know.

There are charities that would provide those, you know.

and will they also cover his other medical costs? and his bills? How about a car? Phone line? Clothing?

a charity COULD provide those. Not would, but could. There is a striking difference. Generally, if you have a few hundred thousand dollars in mutual funds, you aren't going to qualify for charity. Nor should you, if you are such a miser.

And do you have insurance to cover it? Have you had to replace anything each time that happened?
There are only pipes in some walls or over some rooms. When you move in, you ask for a drawing of the building and put all your water sensitive stuff (like computers) away from the possible leaks.

Though were I as poor as Bob, I likely wouldn't have much stuff worth insuring.

MTEA also assumes that the job he can find will give him all the hours he wants. Often, this is not the case, depending upon the situation that the store is in. For example, my place of employment during the summer often cuts hours back to 10-20(!) hours a week because they have too many people, trying to 'fatten' up for the winter when they start to lose people again. I don't see how you could live off of 52.50 dollars a week.

How about when he needs glasses (as most elderly do, assuming he doesn't need them already)
Not all corrective lenses are prescriptions. Drug stores often sell popuar prescription glasses for $15-$25. You just try a bunch until you can see better.

I just hope Bob never looses his job or has an accident. Luckily, accidents NEVER happen, nor does unforseen things :)

Not all corrective lenses are prescriptions. Drug stores often sell popuar prescription glasses for $15-$25. You just try a bunch until you can see better.

and bifocals? trifocals? How about if he doesn't have one of those perscriptions? Or something close to it? What the fuck is the point of having a million dollars locked up in a mutual fund if you can't see?

Look, there are better ways to do welfare reform, which is really what MTAE is talking about (the "my tax dollars" line at the end of the OP). In fact, I think Clinton signed some such bill a while back. Fantasy economics like the scenario in the OP are just that, fantasy. Yeah, people probably could live on that little money and some probably do, but to me the point of working is to improve my lifestyle. Maybe, because of circumstances, I need a hand from my Uncle Sam. And certainly there are welfare cheats, and the system should deal with them. There are also CEOs and CFOs who cook the books, too, and whose wives weep on TV because they have to sell the house in Aspen for less than seven million.

So, we could argue for days, but when it comes down to it, MTAE's scenario isn't realistic.

If someone wants to work their way up to becoming a millionaire, that means that they should work more than 8 hours a day. It's not hard to work 10 hours a day -- in many places, people work 14 hours a day. I was being fair with the figures.


And I take it you have never worked 10-hour days, five days a week, for a considerable amount of time. "Grunt" work(AKA minimum wage jobs) tend to be fairly physicall demanding. Get to the real world, which you obviously have zero experience in.


Please show me any state in which Uncle Sam's slice for people who earn $15,000 dollars or less each year is greater than or equal to 2.5% (1/10 of your estimate). You won't find one because people who live on such low wages don't have to pay taxes or have to pay only very few taxes.


I get 18% taken out...

Yeah, millionaire by the time you're old and wrinkly and on the verge of dying... chyeah...!

and bifocals? trifocals? How about if he doesn't have one of those perscriptions? Or something close to it? What the fuck is the point of having a million dollars locked up in a mutual fund if you can't see?
My point isn't that the scenario can work for all people all the time. But it is possible to live on a lot less money than most people seem to think. Cable TV is not a necessity of life. Living alone is not a necessity of life. Owning a car is not a necessity of life.

oh I lived on waste food for about a year, it was great, I gained 70lbs and never ever want to see another peice of shrimp in my life.....but when you make $9,000 a year, you kinda have to eat what was headed for the trash.

98 packages of hotdogs cent hotdogs is my main diet. I can get away with two packages a week, and the $1 loaf of bread does the same. Round it all off with a couple 30 cent packages of non-name brand mac-n-cheese, and it rounds off to about 4 bucks a week for food for me. And yet, I still barely have enough money to get by.

My point isn't that the scenario can work for all people all the time. But it is possible to live on a lot less money than most people seem to think. Cable TV is not a necessity of life. Living alone is not a necessity of life. Owning a car is not a necessity of life.

Actually, depending on where you may live, owning a car may be a necessity. You can't always get a job close to home, and not every place has affordable public transportation. So, yes, a car can be a necessity.

These are included in the miscellaneous costs. They should not total more than $2,800 dollars per year.

Hold it... do you know how much electricity costs? Let's see, using my area as an example...

Let's see, it's about $100 a month in summer, fall and spring. In winter, it can get to about 200-300 dollars. Sooo... thinking that 9 months out of the year we have 100 dollar months, and 3 have 200(minimal amount), that comes to about $1500 for electricity alone for ONE YEAR.

That leave $1300 dollars for pretty much everything else... which is not much at all.

My point isn't that the scenario can work for all people all the time. But it is possible to live on a lot less money than most people seem to think. Cable TV is not a necessity of life. Living alone is not a necessity of life. Owning a car is not a necessity of life.

out of all of those, the only one I contest is owning a car. Living in a city, you have public transport. Fine. What about upstate New York? The nearest fast food joint might be two or three towns away. And these are large towns, say, 20 minutes to cross. They very well can be necessary.

As for your point, yes. You can live on alot less than most people would think. You can skimp and cut corners. But if you are working a minimum wage job, you will have a very difficult time feeding yourself, clothing yourself, etc.

You will not, as the OP postulates, become a millionare.

98 packages of hotdogs cent hotdogs is my main diet. I can get away with two packages a week, and the $1 loaf of bread does the same. Round it all off with a couple 30 cent packages of non-name brand mac-n-cheese, and it rounds off to about 4 bucks a week for food for me. And yet, I still barely have enough money to get by.

I lived on the streets for a good 3 months until my boss at the fast food restraunt found out and let me live in the back of the restraunt for a few months (you know back behind the office where the cleaning supplies are)

I lived on the streets for a good 3 months until my boss at the fast food restraunt found out and let me live in the back of the restraunt for a few months (you know back behind the office where the cleaning supplies are)

Jesus, nice boss. Most of the pricks I have worked for wouldn't give a rats ass where you lived, and would not, ever, allow you to live anywhere in the store.

Nor does the scenario say he doesn't have a roommate. In my experience, having one is one of the best ways to reduce costs.

Already did - that was the point of the Houston exercise. Plus, there's no reason Bob has to live alone.and now look who's changing things around...

How do you not count staples in your grocery budget?because staples are not Groceries. Lightbulbs, cleaning materials... add those in and you need more than $400 a month.

As for the phone, I'll opt for a cheap pay-as-you-go cellphone. Bob doesn't need to make many calls, and he probably can't afford a landline.Bob can't afford alot of things, so how can he become a millionare... oh that's right, he doesn't alter his lifestyle while saving money. so he pays his taxes on all that dough but doesn't use it

Way to assume the worst case scenario. I'm intolerant to lactose, but I don't make my friends cook me special dishes.but your friends know you're Lactose intolerant. so if they are cooking for you, they do take that into account.

I think that's generous. I think $320 is doable.

As demonstrated by my Houston apartment, that's really generous.considering your appartment is more than the proposed amount... 2 times the amout.

Or using my revised figures, $6540/year.but this isn't about you, it's BOB... remember?

$7/day adds up, and again I think he'll have a lot more than that if he lives a bit more efficiently.then do it... oh that's right...
Of course I will. I don't live a subsistence-level lifestyle.so you admit that bob is living a Subsistence-level lifestyle for 49 years if we assume that his first and only job is obtained at 16 and he works that job till 65.
All I used the roommate for was to split the rent and utilities. Would you like to point out where the plan excludes the possibility of a roommate?you try and live that lifestyle for 49 years working 14 hr days, with a roommate... you admit you are unwilling to yet you expect someone else to?

And, if Bob does live alone, then he can look for a studio apartment instead of a 1 bedroom. Let's go find one of those in Houston:sure, look for one, that covers all the utilites... at $550 a month...

$350/month. 9707 South Gessner Drive Hey, look - I just freed up $2400/year.and what utilities do they cover? bet it doesn't say! how big, sounds like a room, or literally, a shack.

You will not, as the OP postulates, become a millionare.

but the point is it is, just about within the realms of reality, possible. ergo we live in a meritocracy, all poor people are lazy, and helping the disadvantaged is not remotely required :)

Jesus, nice boss. Most of the pricks I have worked for wouldn't give a rats ass where you lived, and would not, ever, allow you to live anywhere in the store.

I know bosses who do that. they are taking a BIG risk, for if anything happens, it's on their head.

out of all of those, the only one I contest is owning a car. Living in a city, you have public transport. Fine. What about upstate New York? The nearest fast food joint might be two or three towns away. And these are large towns, say, 20 minutes to cross. They very well can be necessary.

As for your point, yes. You can live on alot less than most people would think. You can skimp and cut corners. But if you are working a minimum wage job, you will have a very difficult time feeding yourself, clothing yourself, etc.

You will not, as the OP postulates, become a millionare.
Living in a rural area isn't a necessity of life, either. Plus, I think people fail to realise how far they can walk.

I walk to work. It's not far, but that's why I don't own a car.

but the point is it is, just about within the realms of reality, possible. ergo we live in a meritocracy, all poor people are lazy, and helping the disadvantaged is not remotely required :)
You're such a good capitalist:)

Living in a rural area isn't a necessity of life, either. Plus, I think people fail to realise how far they can walk.

I walk to work. It's not far, but that's why I don't own a car.
The cost of moving, plus the increased living costs? Nope, sometimes, moving isn't an option. Could you, in the strict physical sense, walk what equals a twenty minute drive? Assuming you are healthy (big assumption), yes. You could.

Is that at all a rational expectation? No, not particularly.

Let's say that Bob starts working when he's 18 years old. He earns, say $6.00 dollars per hour. He works for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 50 weeks per year. In total, he would then earn $15,000 dollars per year. With that $15,000 dollars, let's assume that he spends $400 on food each month and $550 on rent, which means a total of $11,400 dollars in expenses each year. Hell, he can even spend another $2,800 dollars per year on miscellaneous items, which leaves him with $800 at the end of the year. Now, he invests this $800 in a mutual fund with an interest rate of 8% each year (typically, the rate is 11%, but 3% was subtracted due to inflation). That means that he will have about $362,000 dollars in his account by the time he retires at 65. If Bob starts living off his mutual fund from the time he retires, and withdraws $18,000 each year, he'll have $1,139,000 in his account at the time of his death at the age of 85. So even if you work a minimum wage job, you can still become a millionaire; if you were a savvy investor, you could easily double your income. All you need is a bit of frugality -- it's not hard. The poor have the capacity to help themselves if they so wish -- my tax money shouldn't be going to some could-be millionaires.

You forgot gas, which you'll need if you don't live in a big city with reliable mass transit systems. You'll need car insurance. There goes your surplus.

If you do live in a town or city with mass transit, your rent will be much higher.

Your budget does not allow for raising children. "Anyone can be a millionaire if they live a barren pointless existence that only serves the state upon their death," is hardly an inspirational message.

I'm going to impart to you one very important piece of information MTaE. If you learn this today then half of your life's work will be complete. I will have spared you 30, or given your attitude as demonstrated in your posts 50, years of wrenching emotional soul-searching and hopelessly frustrated ambitions.

Ready for it?

Here it comes...

You don't know anything about anything. Nothing. Everything you don't know could fill a library. In fact, a slight sample of what you don't know already fills the Library of Congress.

How are you to correct this? For one, make a list of everyone you think you have ever learned anything from. Forget everything they ever told you, and never listen to them again. They're not teaching you a damned thing. Otherwise you wouldn't be this dumb.

Who should you listen to? Anyone. The bum on the corner who stopped taking his meds because then he can't hear God talk to him? Sure. Why not? His ranting is at least as well informed as the stuff you've been listening to, because at least it's clear that he's crazy.

Also, stop trying to analyze stuff. It's clear that your talents aren't in that direction. Take up mathematics. It's boring, but at least when you get the wrong answer, it's clear that it's wrong. Wrong answers in life often don't reveal themselves until years down the road, when it's too late to get the prick out of office.

That's enough for one day. Get on top of that and you'll be well ahead of the game of your life.

I lived on the streets for a good 3 months until my boss at the fast food restraunt found out and let me live in the back of the restraunt for a few months (you know back behind the office where the cleaning supplies are)

How'd you get a job with no address to put on an application?

The cost of moving, plus the increased living costs?
Assuming they are increased. Upstate New York is far from the cheapest place in America to live. We've already covered Houston, plus the cities of the northern plains are pretty cheap. No one is stuck in Cortland.
Could you, in the strict physical sense, walk what equals a twenty minute drive?
That's probably too far. But a 1 hour walk is certainly doable on a daily basis. In fact, I have a colleague who does that very thing.

98 packages of hotdogs cent hotdogs is my main diet. I can get away with two packages a week, and the $1 loaf of bread does the same. Round it all off with a couple 30 cent packages of non-name brand mac-n-cheese, and it rounds off to about 4 bucks a week for food for me. And yet, I still barely have enough money to get by.

Try top ramen with a stick of beef jerky thrown in for protien. Should come to about $6 a week. :D

You forgot gas, which you'll need if you don't live in a big city with reliable mass transit systems...you don't know anything about anything. Nothing.

Here I was, thinking that you were going to write a sane, logical post detailing the flaw in my assumptions. That supposition, however, was torn asunder by your hate-filled raving which consumed the remainder of your post. I'll admit that most people here may be more well-informed on this topic than I -- hell, look at Llewdor, who is single-handedly owning the thread. But please do not resort to such crude tactics in an honest debate.

Here I was, thinking that you were going to write a sane, logical post detailing the flaw in my assumptions. That supposition, however, was torn asunder by your hate-filled raving which consumed the remainder of your post. I'll admit that most people here may be more well-informed on this topic than I -- hell, look at Llewdor, who is single-handedly owning the thread. But please do not resort to such crude tactics in an honest debate.

Llewdor is taking liberties with your scenario and has himself admitted that Bob is living a subsistence-level lifestyle that even he cannot maintain.

oh I lived on waste food for about a year, it was great, I gained 70lbs and never ever want to see another peice of shrimp in my life.....but when you make $9,000 a year, you kinda have to eat what was headed for the trash.

When I worked in the kitchen of a restaurant I was shocked at some of the stuff the staff ate. Of course, they were almost all illegal aliens working for sub-minimum wages, so I shouldn't be.

One of the bus-boys offered me a piece of the "death-by-chocolate" cake (my absolute favorite). He was about to throw out and said "you want? Not touched." I looked at the big chunk that had been eaten out of it and responded "somebody touched it!"

BTW, this was a really fancy Manhattan restaurant that was paying these slave-wages that drove their staff to literally eat garbage.

Assuming they are increased. Upstate New York is far from the cheapest place in America to live. We've already covered Houston, plus the cities of the northern plains are pretty cheap. No one is stuck in Cortland.It is also far from the most expensive. And there are still moving costs to consider...at the very least, you would need a car to move...a rental, something. And in general, when you move from a very rural area to a most densely populated area, costs will go up atleast a little.

Moving costs, however, are the biggest thing holding people where they are. If you can't afford food, you can't afford to move, unless you go vagrant style, in which case, you're going to have to abandon all of your posessions, and spend more to get just the basics.

That's probably too far. But a 1 hour walk is certainly doable on a daily basis. In fact, I have a colleague who does that very thing.
Again, assuming you are healthy. I personally walk half hour to and from classes (or ride my bike, which cuts it to about 15). I have knee problems, and some days, it can be a pretty big issue. These aren't even severe injuries, but could easily hinder my ability to walk long periods if I couldn't take care of them as I can now

Here I was, thinking that you were going to write a sane, logical post detailing the flaw in my assumptions. That supposition, however, was torn asunder by your hate-filled raving which consumed the remainder of your post. I'll admit that most people here may be more well-informed on this topic than I -- hell, look at Llewdor, who is single-handedly owning the thread. But please do not resort to such crude tactics in an honest debate.

There was no hate in that post MTaE. You truly know nothing. You're wrong about everything to the point that many of us believe that you're trying to be funny in a Colbertesque stort of way. The advice I gave you would do wonders for your advancement in life (assuming you're joking, this advice can apply as fictitious advice to your character).

Take a look at the President. He's only taking advice from people like Cheney and Rumsfeld. If he took advice from people like James Baker and his own father he'd be much better at his job. You're the same. You're trying to learn from people who can't teach you anything. Stop it, and you'll find that the world is a much less frustrating place.

Try top ramen with a stick of beef jerky thrown in for protien. Should come to about $6 a week. :D

Unfortunately, it's hard to find top rammen affordably, around here. 40 cents a pack, for one meal? PFFT. At 98 cents a pack for hot dogs, I eat two a t a time... that means 98/8=12.25 cents a dog. Two dogs-24 1/2 cents a meal. Add in two slices of bread(30 slices in a $1 package=3 1/3 cents, or 6 2/3 cents a meal) and I have a grand total of 31 1/6 cents a meal! I save myself 8 5/6 cents rather than buying top rammen!

Haha, yay careful spending!

Unfortunately, it's hard to find top rammen affordably, around here. 40 cents a pack, for one meal? PFFT. At 98 cents a pack for hot dogs, I eat two a t a time... that means 98/8=12.25 cents a dog. Two dogs-24 1/2 cents a meal. Add in two slices of bread(30 slices in a $1 package=3 1/3 cents, or 6 2/3 cents a meal) and I have a grand total of 31 1/6 cents a meal! I save myself 8 5/6 cents rather than buying top rammen!

Haha, yay careful spending!

oh man, that sucks, Ramen is like 12 for $1 here, I should mail you some LOL

although....I have a Sams card, I should just mail you real food. ;)

oh man, that sucks, Ramen is like 12 for $1 here, I should mail you some LOL

although....I have a Sams card, I should just mail you real food. ;)

when it goes on sale here... it's like a case for $1... and if stored right, they'll last forever...

I like the basic premise some people are arguing from:

That if given the cheapest living conditions conceivable (but not practical, $550 rent including utilities without needing a car is laughable, a minimum wage job providing good health insurance is very unlikely) a person could manage to save enough money to be a millionaire when he is dead, as long as he has no social life, eats the cheapest food, has no entertainment, and no transportation.

This is like trying to prove that your shit actually does stink.

Its a little late, but I wanted to point out that in a lot of places, if you have any of your utilities turned off, its considered unlivable and you will be evicted so no heating/cooking on a hearth.

This thread has convinced me that MTAE is some kid somewhere living off mommy and daddy.
No one can truly believe that an adult with any type of life experience would actually think that you can plan for every eventuality and become a millionaire on minimum wage.

Here is a more realistic scenario.

Bill is a pretty intelligent hard working guy.
When Bill was young he worked doing manual labor, removing asbestos, lead and hazardous waste.
Bill was in a union and made damn good money.
Bill shared an apartment with a buddy so his rent was only around $300.00 a month.
Public transportation sucks where Bill lives so he buys a cheap car (lets say he spends $1000.00 to buy the car and another few hundred a month on gas, maintenance (even doing most repairs and stuff like oil changes himself)
That is another $300.00 a month
Bill likes to eat decent food so let's say that he spent about $100 a week on food and beverages (re: beer...lol)
$400.00 a month on food/beer
Now Bill, being a young adult male, likes the ladies.
And the ladies like going out and having fun and they like little presents now and again so lets factor in another $200.00 a month the keep her entertained (hell I used to spend at least $10.00 a week on condoms alone ;) )
$200.00
One day he met one he really liked and fell in love.:fluffle:
Now it is all well and good to have roommates but they can cramp ones style and eventually the girl you love will want to live with you and she may not find the idea of sharing your space with a roommate to her liking.
So you get married.
Now Bill is not big on ceremony so it is a simple affair at the Justice of the Peace and a party afterwards.
But it still costs a pretty penny.
But now you have another mouth to feed.
But that is ok because she works too right?
Well until she gets pregnant she does.
Then she has to stay home for the last couple of months of her pregnancy and when the baby is born she gets to stay home for a couple of years and raise your child.
Ah children.
The world has never come up with a more efficient method of separating a working man from his money that the kiddies.
You have to buy diapers
Wal-Mart 100 pack $15.00
Baby wipes.
Wal-Mart 150 pack $5.00
Baby Clothes
Let’s just say a few hundred bucks for the first year of life
$300.00
Car seat
$50.00
Then you have co pays for doctor’s visits (which I did not even include during the wife’s pregnancy!)
And so on and so forth.

Now one day while doing his physically demanding job Bill gets hurt and he cannot work.
He ruptures a disc in his lower back and is laid up for nearly 3 weeks in agony.
But Bill, being a smart ambitious guy decides to go back to school instead of being a leech on society and collecting workman’s compensation (which he is entitled to btw).
So Bill goes back to school and learns to fix computers because he finds that taking things apart and putting them back together to be interesting (nearly went into auto mechanics but that class was full and computers are cleaner...lol)

So now Bill has some debt from getting hurt (doctor bills ain't cheap!) and he has to pay for books for school and of cause that old car ain't getting him around so he get another one.
He finishes school and gets a decent job.
Things are going ok until his job is downsized.
Now he is out of work for a little while and his wife goes back to work and his folks help out watching the kid.
Bill is a smart hard working guy and finds another better job.
He works his ass off and pulls 60 to 70 hour weeks thinking he has a career.
But the wife is unhappy because Bill is hardly ever home.
But Bill is moving up in the company and becomes a field supervisor for the entire New England area.
He starts making more money but it also requires more work.
Now the wife is really unhappy and starts turning to alcohol and drugs because she is lonely and miserable because all Bill does is work, eat and sleep and repeat week in and week out.
Bill does not know his wife is using drugs until the signs are very clear (she loses weight, her paychecks keep getting smaller and smaller etc.)

Bill loves his wife and gets her the help she needs and she gets better.
For now.

Then one day Bill's good job starts laying off his crew members.
Bill can see the writing on the wall and starts trying to find a better position at another company.
But remember that Bill is still working 10-12 hours a day 6 days a week.
Not easy to find work, care for your wife who needs you and your son too and find a new job.
So when Bill finally gets the axe (last full time employee out of 40 in his region) he crashes into a fairly serious bout of depression.

Depression sucks.
Bill has lived with mild to moderate depression all his life.
But now with all his problems it is like the weight of the world is on his shoulders.
It is a struggle just to drag his ass out of bed every day and look for work.

But he does find a job.

Now his wife is also suffering from depression and is sneaking around behind his back doing drugs when he is at work.
She is smart enough not to do too much and women can be "creative" in ways to get them without paying.
Then the wife gets pregnant again (damned condom broke!)
Bill does not know that while pregnant the wife is still using.

On what should be a very happy day, the day his second son is born, he finds out the hard way that his wife was using when they take his kids away because the baby is born with drugs in his system.

Now Bill does not do drugs (aside from an occasional joint or two here and there) so he gets the kids back after a couple of months.
But he is separated from his wife due to the stresses put on their relationship.
Bill still loves her and wants to help her get better and re-unite his family.
But his wife meets some scumbag loser and decides that she would rather be with him even though he has an extensive criminal record and cannot hold a job for more than a couple of weeks at a time.

Now Bill becomes truly depressed.
He has two kids he is raising alone and cannot work because one of them is a newborn (thankfully he is healthy even with the way his mother abused herself when pregnant)
Bill ends up living in a family homeless shelter.

But Bill is a strong guy, smart and a hard worker.
So when his kid is 6 months old he gets himself a really good job and gets out of the homeless shelter and into his own apartment.

Bill pays $675.00 a month for rent
$300.00 a month for the car insurance and gas/maintenance (most he still does himself)
$50.00 a month for electric
$40.00 a month (averaged over the year more in winter/less in summer) for gas
$40.00 a month for Internet (because he has to have some form of entertainment...even if it is debating genocide with ignorant fools on the Internet!)
$500 a month for food (kids can eat!)
$100 a month for coffee and bagel each morning before work (a little luxury I allow myself)
Still buying diapers and wipes.
Still buying clothes for two kids now.
Still have birthday presents and Halloween costumes and Christmas presents and all the other little thing that make a kids life special.

I make a lot more than minimum wage and my budget is so tight it squeaks.

The point of this long story?
You do not know what life is going to throw at you.

When you have lived it come back and talk to me.

And one more thing.
If there are any nice young ladies in the New England area that want a hard working, honest and faithful guy Bill is on the market ;)

This thread has convinced me that MTAE is some kid somewhere living off mommy and daddy.
No one can truly believe that an adult with any type of life experience would actually think that you can plan for every eventuality and become a millionaire on minimum wage.

Here is a more realistic scenario.

Bill is a pretty intelligent hard working guy.
When Bill was young he worked doing manual labor, removing asbestos, lead and hazardous waste.
Bill was in a union and made damn good money.
Bill shared an apartment with a buddy so his rent was only around $300.00 a month.
Public transportation sucks where Bill lives so he buys a cheap car (lets say he spends $1000.00 to buy the car and another few hundred a month on gas, maintenance (even doing most repairs and stuff like oil changes himself)
That is another $300.00 a month
Bill likes to eat decent food so let's say that he spent about $100 a week on food and beverages (re: beer...lol)
$400.00 a month on food/beer
Now Bill, being a young adult male, likes the ladies.
And the ladies like going out and having fun and they like little presents now and again so lets factor in another $200.00 a month the keep her entertained (hell I used to spend at least $10.00 a week on condoms alone ;) )
$200.00
One day he met one he really liked and fell in love.:fluffle:
Now it is all well and good to have roommates but they can cramp ones style and eventually the girl you love will want to live with you and she may not find the idea of sharing your space with a roommate to her liking.
So you get married.
Now Bill is not big on ceremony so it is a simple affair at the Justice of the Peace and a party afterwards.
But it still costs a pretty penny.
But now you have another mouth to feed.
But that is ok because she works too right?
Well until she gets pregnant she does.
Then she has to stay home for the last couple of months of her pregnancy and when the baby is born she gets to stay home for a couple of years and raise your child.
Ah children.
The world has never come up with a more efficient method of separating a working man from his money that the kiddies.
You have to buy diapers
Wal-Mart 100 pack $15.00
Baby wipes.
Wal-Mart 150 pack $5.00
Baby Clothes
Let’s just say a few hundred bucks for the first year of life
$300.00
Car seat
$50.00
Then you have co pays for doctor’s visits (which I did not even include during the wife’s pregnancy!)
And so on and so forth.

Now one day while doing his physically demanding job Bill gets hurt and he cannot work.
He ruptures a disc in his lower back and is laid up for nearly 3 weeks in agony.
But Bill, being a smart ambitious guy decides to go back to school instead of being a leech on society and collecting workman’s compensation (which he is entitled to btw).
So Bill goes back to school and learns to fix computers because he finds that taking things apart and putting them back together to be interesting (nearly went into auto mechanics but that class was full and computers are cleaner...lol)

So now Bill has some debt from getting hurt (doctor bills ain't cheap!) and he has to pay for books for school and of cause that old car ain't getting him around so he get another one.
He finishes school and gets a decent job.
Things are going ok until his job is downsized.
Now he is out of work for a little while and his wife goes back to work and his folks help out watching the kid.
Bill is a smart hard working guy and finds another better job.
He works his ass off and pulls 60 to 70 hour weeks thinking he has a career.
But the wife is unhappy because Bill is hardly ever home.
But Bill is moving up in the company and becomes a field supervisor for the entire New England area.
He starts making more money but it also requires more work.
Now the wife is really unhappy and starts turning to alcohol and drugs because she is lonely and miserable because all Bill does is work, eat and sleep and repeat week in and week out.
Bill does not know his wife is using drugs until the signs are very clear (she loses weight, her paychecks keep getting smaller and smaller etc.)

Bill loves his wife and gets her the help she needs and she gets better.
For now.

Then one day Bill's good job starts laying off his crew members.
Bill can see the writing on the wall and starts trying to find a better position at another company.
But remember that Bill is still working 10-12 hours a day 6 days a week.
Not easy to find work, care for your wife who needs you and your son too and find a new job.
So when Bill finally gets the axe (last full time employee out of 40 in his region) he crashes into a fairly serious bout of depression.

Depression sucks.
Bill has lived with mild to moderate depression all his life.
But now with all his problems it is like the weight of the world is on his shoulders.
It is a struggle just to drag his ass out of bed every day and look for work.

But he does find a job.

Now his wife is also suffering from depression and is sneaking around behind his back doing drugs when he is at work.
She is smart enough not to do too much and women can be "creative" in ways to get them without paying.
Then the wife gets pregnant again (damned condom broke!)
Bill does not know that while pregnant the wife is still using.

On what should be a very happy day, the day his second son is born, he finds out the hard way that his wife was using when they take his kids away because the baby is born with drugs in his system.

Now Bill does not do drugs (aside from an occasional joint or two here and there) so he gets the kids back after a couple of months.
But he is separated from his wife due to the stresses put on their relationship.
Bill still loves her and wants to help her get better and re-unite his family.
But his wife meets some scumbag loser and decides that she would rather be with him even though he has an extensive criminal record and cannot hold a job for more than a couple of weeks at a time.

Now Bill becomes truly depressed.
He has two kids he is raising alone and cannot work because one of them is a newborn (thankfully he is healthy even with the way his mother abused herself when pregnant)
Bill ends up living in a family homeless shelter.

But Bill is a strong guy, smart and a hard worker.
So when his kid is 6 months old he gets himself a really good job and gets out of the homeless shelter and into his own apartment.

Bill pays $675.00 a month for rent
$300.00 a month for the car insurance and gas/maintenance (most he still does himself)
$50.00 a month for electric
$40.00 a month (averaged over the year more in winter/less in summer) for gas
$40.00 a month for Internet (because he has to have some form of entertainment...even if it is debating genocide with ignorant fools on the Internet!)
$500 a month for food (kids can eat!)
$100 a month for coffee and bagel each morning before work (a little luxury I allow myself)
Still buying diapers and wipes.
Still buying clothes for two kids now.
Still have birthday presents and Halloween costumes and Christmas presents and all the other little thing that make a kids life special.

I make a lot more than minimum wage and my budget is so tight it squeaks.

The point of this long story?
You do not know what life is going to throw at you.

When you have lived it come back and talk to me.

And one more thing.
If there are any nice young ladies in the New England area that want a hard working, honest and faithful guy Bill is on the market ;)


You're awesome.

This thread, however, is not awesome. This is trolling.

Living in a rural area isn't a necessity of life, either. Plus, I think people fail to realise how far they can walk.

I walk to work. It's not far, but that's why I don't own a car.
If you happen to be born in a rual area though... it's rather hard to leave.

Try living in Nevada. The next town is probably 45 min away by car.

Here I was, thinking that you were going to write a sane, logical post detailing the flaw in my assumptions. That supposition, however, was torn asunder by your hate-filled raving which consumed the remainder of your post. I'll admit that most people here may be more well-informed on this topic than I -- hell, look at Llewdor, who is single-handedly owning the thread. But please do not resort to such crude tactics in an honest debate.

Please tell me you and Llewdor are trolling. I want to have more faith than this in humanity.

Apparently, Bob isn't allowed to have children. Apparently, Bob isn't allowed to have prescription glasses. He's supposed to just find them. Apparently he doesn't pay taxes (and yes, you have to pay taxes if you have this much money in the bank, as you claim). It doesn't account for temporary bouts of unemployment. Unpaid sick leave (which is usually the case with minimum wage jobs). Decreases in hours that sometimes happen. It doesn't take into account diabetes, a sprained ankle, a heart attack, cancer, or any of the other things he might encounter in his life. You didn't account for even poor insurance which generally has a very high deductable. You didn't account for utilities. And in my area it's common for heat to cost a couple of hundred dollars a year. Living in the city? Costs more in rent. Living outside the city, you'll need a car. (Llewdor, most expensive city in America, my ass. Washington DC has studio apartments at 1300/month. Apartments that are shared in Adams Morgan cost more than 550 if you have THREE roommates).

Do we need to keep going are we going to keep being absurd?

Uh, lol?

snip

All you have shown is what he can buy with his budget that the OP said. You haven't made a single example where someone can get by without spending $8 a day on "Misc. stuff". And plus one visit to the emergency room completely dries up his $800 left for the year in a month. And then you pay the same amount next month, and next month, and next month. In all, one visit to the emergency room is going to make the millionaire in the hole about $20,000. Then to get, you must get a loan. Of course, because he will never be paid back for the hospital visit, he will never be able to pay off ther loan, so each year, Bob steadily goes another few thousand in the hole. But who cares about any of that. Let's let Llewdor and MTAE live in their fantasy world.

If you happen to be born in a rual area though... it's rather hard to leave.

Try living in Nevada. The next town is probably 45 min away by car.

You with Nevada...me with upstate New York...


have we stumbled into another Vouchers thread?;)

Then again, I like my digital cable, I have a dog, two cats, and a bird, and I'm getting married here in a month and a half.
congrats on the upcoming nuptials.

You with Nevada...me with upstate New York...


have we stumbled into another Vouchers thread?;)
*lol* Could be, could be.

Of course some of those threads actually presented good arguments, this though...

*lol* Could be, could be.

Of course some of those threads actually presented good arguments, this though...

I actually enjoy those threads, because that is a fight that I have around here pretty often...between friends, the school board, the town government...it is great training.

This is trolling. And not very good. But it let me put off studying for Brit Lit.

I actually enjoy those threads, because that is a fight that I have around here pretty often...between friends, the school board, the town government...it is great training.

This is trolling. And not very good. But it let me put off studying for Brit Lit.
Go study Brit Lit. It's good for you.









Well, not really but I had to deal with it and missery loves company. ;)

Go study Brit Lit. It's good for you.

Well, not really but I had to deal with it and missery loves company. ;)

haha...I've done all I can take for the night...read Rape Of The Lock, Essay On Man, Essay on Criticism, The Castaway, We Are Seven, Tintern Abbey, and Rime of the Ancient Mariner today, plus some handouts. I figure I'll get up early tomorrow and get some more done.

Then I'll go take the test, and realize that I studied all the wrong stuff:)

Let's say that Bob starts working when he's 18 years old. He earns, say $6.00 dollars per hour. He works for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 50 weeks per year. In total, he would then earn $15,000 dollars per year. With that $15,000 dollars, let's assume that he spends $400 on food each month and $550 on rent, which means a total of $11,400 dollars in expenses each year. Hell, he can even spend another $2,800 dollars per year on miscellaneous items, which leaves him with $800 at the end of the year. Now, he invests this $800 in a mutual fund with an interest rate of 8% each year (typically, the rate is 11%, but 3% was subtracted due to inflation). That means that he will have about $362,000 dollars in his account by the time he retires at 65. If Bob starts living off his mutual fund from the time he retires, and withdraws $18,000 each year, he'll have $1,139,000 in his account at the time of his death at the age of 85. So even if you work a minimum wage job, you can still become a millionaire; if you were a savvy investor, you could easily double your income. All you need is a bit of frugality -- it's not hard. The poor have the capacity to help themselves if they so wish -- my tax money shouldn't be going to some could-be millionaires.
However, if Bob ever needs to pay things like unexpected medical bills, or perhaps he gets in a car crash, or any of a million other things that come up all the time, then he's screwed.

This is seriously up for debate? Really?

However, if Bob ever needs to pay things like unexpected medical bills, or perhaps he gets in a car crash, or any of a million other things that come up all the time, then he's screwed.

I think this hypothetical "Bob" is screwed anyway.

15 thousand dollars a year isnt squat, no matter how much you attempt to budget it.
You cant "invest wisely," becuase your income simply does not cover simple meager day to day exspenses, let alone have enough left over to put it into anything.

Its barely enough to eke out a living.

But for anyone like Meanstoandend, who begs to differ, I highly encourage them to try to do so.

Morgan Spurlock, the movie maker who did "Supersize Me" did a documentary on this very subject.
I cant recall the name of it, but I think I know the outcome.

Ive lived it.

I think this hypothetical "Bob" is screwed anyway.

15 thousand dollars a year isnt squat, no matter how much you attempt to budget it.
You cant "invest wisely," becuase your income simply does not cover simple meager day to day exspenses, let alone have enough left over to put it into anything.

Its barely enough to eke out a living.

But for anyone like Meanstoandend, who begs to differ, I highly encourage them to try to do so.

Morgan Spurlock, the movie maker who did "Supersize Me" did a documentary on this very subject.
I cant recall the name of it, but I think I know the outcome.

Ive lived it.
If only you had invested in a calculator and a beyond naively optimistic viewpoint, you wouldn't have had to live it.

Okay, lets move to the real world. I make eight dollars an hour and work fifty hours a week on average. I also work as a musician, bringing another three hundred dollars a month. I only pay $300 a month in rent. So far I'm doing signifacantly better than Bob. And then the real world comes in. One where I have other bills, like a car, gas, electricity, water, phone, insurance. The two easiest to axe would be car and phone, however, I lose either of those and it becomes a great deal harder to hold a job. Trust me. I have unexpected costs. Plumbing repairs, car repairs, medical bills, and so forth. I spend an average of perhaps $40 dollars a month on recreation (eating out, dates, concerts, DVD's etc). Which belive it or not helps mantain my sanity. I have aproxiamelty $2000 in debt. I finish each month with about $300-$500 dollars left over, barring an abnormal amount of the unforseen expenses. Out of this I must take food, basic household objects (soap, TP, laundrey detergent, cleaners, etc) and hopefully have a little to put away towards my education (so I don't have to continue this). Do I have $800 dollars a year to put into a mutual fund. Maybe if I cut back on meals, and never buy a single b-day or christmas gift I might be able to, in a good year. I also hope to one day get married, which belive it or not, costs a lot of money, especially considering the common event of children. Try living that life sometime. It's not as easy as you seem to think it is.

If only you had invested in a calculator and a beyond naively optimistic viewpoint, you wouldn't have had to live it.

*is trying to decide the amount of sarcasm in this statement*

*is trying to decide the amount of sarcasm in this statement*

It's more than a little.

*is trying to decide the amount of sarcasm in this statement*

I'd say its absolutly dripping. However, it might only be saturated.

I'd say its absolutly dripping. However, it might only be saturated.

I was hovering near "soggily squishable"

I was hovering near "soggily squishable"

Turns out it was just "More than a little". How passe.

I think what the OP was trying to say was that with careful budgeting and by being frugal someone on the poverty line can stay there.

Sure they would have 1 million dollars on their deathbed.. but they would have been poor all their lives. I am assuming what he is suggesting is that poor people should know their place. They should stay in their minimum wage jobs till their 85 so they can make their 1 million dollar donation to the state.

Not sure its an opinion I agree with.. but I don't think it is untenable to suggest its possible to get by on minimum wage. People in the third world get by on a whole lot less. The question is whether that is a desirable lifestyle?? Now therein lies an entirely different question :)

If only you had invested in a calculator and a beyond naively optimistic viewpoint, you wouldn't have had to live it.

Come again?

Is my sarcasm font not working properly?

Come again?

Is my sarcasm font not working properly?

No it works fine.... We just need standardized measuring equipment is all.

Okay, lets move to the real world. I make eight dollars an hour and work fifty hours a week on average. I also work as a musician, bringing another three hundred dollars a month. I only pay $300 a month in rent. So far I'm doing signifacantly better than Bob. And then the real world comes in. One where I have other bills, like a car, gas, electricity, water, phone, insurance. The two easiest to axe would be car and phone, however, I lose either of those and it becomes a great deal harder to hold a job. Trust me. I have unexpected costs. Plumbing repairs, car repairs, medical bills, and so forth. I spend an average of perhaps $40 dollars a month on recreation (eating out, dates, concerts, DVD's etc). Which belive it or not helps mantain my sanity. I have aproxiamelty $2000 in debt. I finish each month with about $300-$500 dollars left over, barring an abnormal amount of the unforseen expenses. Out of this I must take food, basic household objects (soap, TP, laundrey detergent, cleaners, etc) and hopefully have a little to put away towards my education (so I don't have to continue this). Do I have $800 dollars a year to put into a mutual fund. Maybe if I cut back on meals, and never buy a single b-day or christmas gift I might be able to, in a good year. I also hope to one day get married, which belive it or not, costs a lot of money, especially considering the common event of children. Try living that life sometime. It's not as easy as you seem to think it is.
You need to invest in rich parents.

You need to invest in rich parents.

Sounds like a plan.....

Turns out it was just "More than a little". How passe.

I'm a bore.

I'm a bore.

It's okay, we forgive you. This time anyways....

It's okay, we forgive you. This time anyways....

I'll razzle dazzle you boys in the future. Just you wait!

You need to invest in rich parents.

Marry into money!

I see. You could find no flaw in my argument, so you simply chose to insult me. This model is easily applicable to "the real world" -- hell, it should have been $3,000,000 if I didn't want to take the lowest possible bound.

What a load of rubbish, travel fares, bills, children, $400 a month on food, hands up who spends this or less on food a month. Beer, drugs, cloths, birthday presents, xmas presents, presents for the wife just because, $15000 a year is simply put not enough to both live and save or invest. I would like to know what 'real world' you are talking about here. Presumably one without all the little hicups of life?

Marry into money!

get an education!

So many missing things to this senario

Bob has to pay 1000 a month for health insurance
Bob has to own a vehicle to get to work at about 350 a month (low end of paying a loan and insurance)

You also forgot things like energy bill ... electricity is important sometimes.

Just to name a few

Well it is more than a mistake here,may be it was intended to value poverty of the mind,but rather be a candide,believing a lot ,as beeing a millionaire will be like beeing a god....
And you know what?he is right.
the fuckers are the one beeing fucked

Morgan Spurlock, the movie maker who did "Supersize Me" did a documentary on this very subject.
I cant recall the name of it, but I think I know the outcome.

Yeah, 30 days. It was a TV series.

Oh my God! MeansToAnEnd, you have just solved poverty! Go now, publish your findings, spread the word! Bring an end to ghettos worldwide. Don't waste your revolutionary intellect on these insignificant forums, the world is calling!


You Fuckstick.

get an education!

That's entirely too much like work! Being a kept man is great, if only I had the looks for it.

Please tell me you and Llewdor are trolling. I want to have more faith than this in humanity.
I'm not trolling. I'm just pointing out that MTaE wasn't using the most conservative possible numbers just to make his math work. I think I could get by on less than $400/month for food (as other people in this thread have demonstrated), and I've shown that $550/month in rent is far from the minimum available in the US.
Apparently, Bob isn't allowed to have children. Apparently, Bob isn't allowed to have prescription glasses.
Not if he want to be a millionaire on minimum wage. He has to make choices.
Apparently he doesn't pay taxes (and yes, you have to pay taxes if you have this much money in the bank, as you claim).
I wasn't aware the US had asset taxes. That's appalling. Canada doesn't tax my savings.
It doesn't account for temporary bouts of unemployment. Unpaid sick leave (which is usually the case with minimum wage jobs).
But it also assumes a minimum wage job for 50 years, with no raises or promotions ever.
Decreases in hours that sometimes happen.
Are jobs really that scarce down there? Give me an able-bodied English speaker and I can find her a job that pays at least $10/hour that starts tomorrow. The job is probably in Edmonton.
It doesn't take into account diabetes, a sprained ankle, a heart attack, cancer, or any of the other things he might encounter in his life.
No it didn't/ MTaE didn't claim the scenario was likely - just possible.
You didn't account for even poor insurance which generally has a very high deductable.
Insurance is optional.
You didn't account for utilities. And in my area it's common for heat to cost a couple of hundred dollars a year.
But I did in my rent calculations.
(Llewdor, most expensive city in America, my ass. Washington DC has studio apartments at 1300/month. Apartments that are shared in Adams Morgan cost more than 550 if you have THREE roommates).
Are those the cheapest apartments available?

Admittedly, I only had real estate prices handy when making my comparison - not rental prices. The dichotomy here suggests I'm living under some form of rent control (and I am, as it turns out - no landlord in British Columbia is permitted to raise rent more than 5%/year).

This OP wasn't suppopsed to be a manual for everyone. It was a thought experiment to determine if such a thing was possible. Clearly Bob is a recluse who stays at home and reads used books for entertainment. He might collect odd trinkets he finds on the side of the highway while he walks to work.

Doesn't everyone have a weird uncle who reminds you of Bob?

Let's say that Bob starts working when he's 18 years old. He earns, say $6.00 dollars per hour. He works for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 50 weeks per year.

Where will this magically guarenteed above minimum wage job with overtime come from?

In total, he would then earn $15,000 dollars per year. With that $15,000 dollars, let's assume that he spends $400 on food each month and $550 on rent, which means a total of $11,400 dollars in expenses each year. Hell, he can even spend another $2,800 dollars per year on miscellaneous items, which leaves him with $800 at the end of the year.

Cite actual facts and figures there, please... (Hint: All of those numbers have been pulled out of your ass.)

Now, he invests this $800 in a mutual fund with an interest rate of 8% each year (typically, the rate is 11%, but 3% was subtracted due to inflation). That means that he will have about $362,000 dollars in his account by the time he retires at 65. If Bob starts living off his mutual fund from the time he retires, and withdraws $18,000 each year, he'll have $1,139,000 in his account at the time of his death at the age of 85. So even if you work a minimum wage job, you can still become a millionaire; if you were a savvy investor, you could easily double your income.

Nice way to reach an unreasonable conclusion.

All you need is a bit of frugality

Buuuuu! Wrong answer. Try again.

it's not hard.

Pull this finger - it has a bell.

The poor have the capacity to help themselves if they so wish -- my tax money shouldn't be going to some could-be millionaires.

Assuming they live in your Candy Land fantasy, yes.

I'm not trolling. I'm just pointing out that MTaE wasn't using the most conservative possible numbers just to make his math work. I think I could get by on less than $400/month for food (as other people in this thread have demonstrated), and I've shown that $550/month in rent is far from the minimum available in the US.

Not if he want to be a millionaire on minimum wage. He has to make choices.

Seriously? Now Bob and all of the rest of the poor, given it was a generalized argument against assistance for the poor, are going to move to cheaper areas? Hmmm... with what money will they move? What happens if the large percentage of people who live in poverty in the US if they all move to cheaper areas? Not enough jobs. Demand for rental properties go up. Demand increases value. Suddenly it's not cheap anymore. Do they move again? Now, there are no jobs so how do they afford the move this time? Moving is expensive so poor people usually can't chase jobs or real estate.

I wasn't aware the US had asset taxes. That's appalling. Canada doesn't tax my savings.

So if you're worth a million dollars and you get a job you shouldn't pay income taxes why? Rich people pay taxes and if you have several hundred thousand in the bank, let alone a million, you're richer than the majority of the US population.


But it also assumes a minimum wage job for 50 years, with no raises or promotions ever.

Promotions and raises aren't a guarantee in minimum wage jobs. Many minimum wage earners have no opportunity for advancement. And given that he's working every waking hour that doesn't include him fixing his own stuff, searching for furniture at garage sales and trying to get over a broken leg with no medical attention, he doesn't have much time to read or take classes or do anything to improve himself.

Are jobs really that scarce down there? Give me an able-bodied English speaker and I can find her a job that pays at least $10/hour that starts tomorrow. The job is probably in Edmonton.

Yes, they are that scarce. You also assume able-bodied. Not necessarily a valid assumption. Yes, most people could find a job if they looked. However, it would necessarily be close to where they live and it wouldn't be immediate. Bob's budget is so tight that he would be several years behind just form a short period of unemployment. And if he goes into debt during his unemployment period, then that will of course cost him in interest.

Meanwhile, most of the jobs here are preferential to people who are in good health and have good teeth, a clean appearance, etc. However, given that Bob has no insurance and eats crappy food he's likely got bad skin, bad teeth and is not going to be very healthy.

No it didn't/ MTaE didn't claim the scenario was likely - just possible.

No, actually he summarized his point like this - "The poor have the capacity to help themselves if they so wish -- my tax money shouldn't be going to some could-be millionaires." He made a generalized statement as an argument for not give government assistance to the poor. Inherent to a generalized argument is the suggestion it's likely.


Insurance is optional.

Not having insurance could ruin your life in the US. In the US, we don't have free healthcare. Bob is literally risking his life, his ability to work, and everything he could EVER save by not having insurance. It makes MTaE's suggestion even more stupid if that's the assumption.




But I did in my rent calculations.

You did it for Canada. In the US, it's highly unlikely in the expensive heat areas to get heat included in cheap apartments. It wasn't included in the DC apartments I found. Granted I chose a very expensive place, but the point is that many cities in the US are very expensive.

Are those the cheapest apartments available?

Yes, some of the cheapest apartments available in that area. Of course, the person could move elsewhere, but keep in mind that you assumed that people would live near there work in your scenario. DC is incredibly expensive.


Admittedly, I only had real estate prices handy when making my comparison - not rental prices. The dichotomy here suggests I'm living under some form of rent control (and I am, as it turns out - no landlord in British Columbia is permitted to raise rent more than 5%/year).

There are often limits like that in the states and many times landlords here will make that promise to you so long as you continue signing yearly leases.


This OP wasn't suppopsed to be a manual for everyone. It was a thought experiment to determine if such a thing was possible. Clearly Bob is a recluse who stays at home and reads used books for entertainment. He might collect odd trinkets he finds on the side of the highway while he walks to work.

Doesn't everyone have a weird uncle who reminds you of Bob?

It wasn't a thought experiment according to the OP. It was a generalized argument for why we shouldn't help the poor as if they don't need help.

This OP wasn't suppopsed to be a manual for everyone. with a title and op like this?
Anyone can be a Millionaire!

[snip] So even if you work a minimum wage job, you can still become a millionaire; if you were a savvy investor, you could easily double your income. All you need is a bit of frugality -- it's not hard. The poor have the capacity to help themselves if they so wish -- my tax money shouldn't be going to some could-be millionaires.
it's kinda evident that this plan is an all encompasing plan. not just for hermits, or people living in certain areas... and especially for people who don't want to do anything with their money, since poor bob dies a millionare, but doesn't enjoy any of it.

with a title and op like this?
Anyone can be a Millionaire!


it's kinda evident that this plan is an all encompasing plan. not just for hermits, or people living in certain areas... and especially for people who don't want to do anything with their money, since poor bob dies a millionare, but doesn't enjoy any of it.

And to me, the key words are, "my tax money shouldn't be going to some could-be millionaires." MTAE is saying, though he may say I'm misinterpreting him, that since it's easy for anyone to put away a million dollars, there's no need for government assistance at any level. If you can't scrape up eight hundred bucks a year on a minimum wage job, well, that's your problem, not the government's.

I was going to post this as a thread (with a poll) rather than mess up this thread but it seemed a little childish:

What means to what end?

It beats me...unless it's a welfareless, Bush-led society where everyone has sex with small children on buses....

The fact that minimum wage is dictated by the government and that it is in no way keeping up with inflation are also not concerns of the OP. He's just absurdly thick about the whole thing, and I seriously doubt he pays taxes anyway, he's obviously just a kid.

12 pages
i'm in awe.
i never knew it just could.
Aye
@x
Again
Aye

we don't have free healthcare


And you think healthcare in Canada is free? Or anywhere else?

as for the OP, you'd be better off getting an 10 dollar job and working less hours.

And you think healthcare in Canada is free? Or anywhere else?

as for the OP, you'd be better off getting an 10 dollar job and working less hours.

Basic healthcare is free in Canada, is it not? Someone pays for it, but for the purposes of this discussion it's not the poor person using the healthcare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(Canada)

Seriously? Now Bob and all of the rest of the poor, given it was a generalized argument against assistance for the poor, are going to move to cheaper areas? Hmmm... with what money will they move? What happens if the large percentage of people who live in poverty in the US if they all move to cheaper areas? Not enough jobs. Demand for rental properties go up. Demand increases value. Suddenly it's not cheap anymore. Do they move again? Now, there are no jobs so how do they afford the move this time? Moving is expensive so poor people usually can't chase jobs or real estate.
If everyone were doing this, that would have already happened. The example applies to a single individual - his marginal impact on the market will be negligible.
So if you're worth a million dollars and you get a job you shouldn't pay income taxes why?
Because they're income taxes. Are you seriously telling me that how much tax you owe is determined by your assets?
Promotions and raises aren't a guarantee in minimum wage jobs.
But nor are they impossible. Since the OP assumes no such advancement, I think we can cut him some slack.
he doesn't have much time to read or take classes or do anything to improve himself.[/quotep
He's only working 50 hours/week. Assuming he sleeps a generous 8 hours/night that leaves 62 free hours/week. If we add 2 hours/weekday commuting, that's still 52 free hours/week. That's plenty of time to learn something new, not to mention the things he might learn just working.
[quote]Not having insurance could ruin your life in the US.
It could. It won't necessarily.
Bob is literally risking his life, his ability to work, and everything he could EVER save by not having insurance.
Yes he is. He's already a pretty strange guy to be living like this anyway - is it surprising he'd be willing to take that risk?

And I'm not sure I'm willing to assume Bob has a crappy diet. Bob has an inexpensive diet, but it can still be balanced.
You did it for Canada. In the US, it's highly unlikely in the expensive heat areas to get heat included in cheap apartments.
Actually, if you'll recall, I was looking for apartments in Houston. And the ones I found had gas included. Gas = heat. The first one had central air conditioning, too.
many cities in the US are very expensive.
It said "Anyone can be a millionaire", not "Anyone can be a millionaire anywhere".
with a title and op like this?
Anyone can be a Millionaire!
It says anyone, not everyone.
Basic healthcare is free in Canada, is it not? Someone pays for it, but for the purposes of this discussion it's not the poor person using the healthcare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(Canada)
Actually, all non-elective healthcare is free in Canada. But, since it can't be rationed by price, it's rationed by waiting lists. If you need a hip replacement, you'll likely have to wait most of a year to get one.

I"ll admit that I see the doctor more than I would if I had to pay for it myself. Some of my visits might be frivolous, but since the marginal cost to me is so small I have no incentive not to abuse the system.

lol

No it didn't/ MTaE didn't claim the scenario was likely - just possible.


Take a look at the thread title, it's called ANYONE can be a millionaire!

It says anyone, not everyone.
and since the OP makes no claims to define who and also inferrs that all poor people can do this, it still lays false your claim.

If everyone were doing this, that would have already happened. The example applies to a single individual - his marginal impact on the market will be negligible.

Again, you're not reading what he wrote, he was arguing to change policy toward poor people. That's not a single individual. That's saying that he is suggesting that this is an option that poor should be doing so that government help is unnecessary. A group of people doing this that is large enough to be a factor in policy is enough to have an impact on the market.

And you're right, everyone isn't doing this. The reason is obvious. It doesn't work.


Because they're income taxes. Are you seriously telling me that how much tax you owe is determined by your assets?

Interest is a form of income. And without interest there would not be a substantial amount of money in the account. In fact, since 800/year for 47 years is only 37,600, his average income from interest is 19,000 year. Especially in the later years, he'll definitely being pay large amounts of taxes. If he places it in a 401K account he can delay until retirement, but he'll still pay. However, in a 401K it's not that likely that you'll see a very good interest rate that outpaces inflation at a rate that would make the amount of money worth the effort and enormous risk this kind of a lifestyle would take.


But nor are they impossible. Since the OP assumes no such advancement, I think we can cut him some slack.

You've not established any reason why we should account for such advancement.


He's only working 50 hours/week. Assuming he sleeps a generous 8 hours/night that leaves 62 free hours/week. If we add 2 hours/weekday commuting, that's still 52 free hours/week. That's plenty of time to learn something new, not to mention the things he might learn just working.

52 free hours to cook his meals, find furniture, fix his stuff himself, and the other things he'd have to do in order to maintain the kind of budget you suggest. In what magical world is he able to find everything second-hand without looking for it. And of course, looking for it will not be very quick since you've not budgeted for any transportation.


It could. It won't necessarily.

No, but it makes the chance of actually making it to retirement with this money highly unlikely and despite your trouble reading what he wrote, he certainly suggested this was a solution for poor people, so much so that the government need not look out for them anymore.


Yes he is. He's already a pretty strange guy to be living like this anyway - is it surprising he'd be willing to take that risk?

And I'm not sure I'm willing to assume Bob has a crappy diet. Bob has an inexpensive diet, but it can still be balanced.

Inexpensive in the US increases the likelihood of unhealthy dramatically. Fresh fruit and vegetables are very expensive in comparison to pre-prepared soups and whatnot.

And again, you keep acting like we are just talking about some random individual. The OP clearly suggested this was an opportunity for poor people in general to help themselves. Adding this to the argument just makes it further nonsense. Seriously, just admit you're trolling. In thread after thread you appear and just argue nonsense that is completely unsupported. "Inductive reasoning doesn't involve reason" and whatnot. This is my last reply. It's not like anyone needs me to explain how dumb your premise is.


Actually, if you'll recall, I was looking for apartments in Houston. And the ones I found had gas included. Gas = heat. The first one had central air conditioning, too.

Yes, in Houston. In case you're unaware, Houston is in the south. Heat is much less of an issue in Houston than in DC or Detroit. So they can throw in gas, because they aren't going to spend as much for it.


It said "Anyone can be a millionaire", not "Anyone can be a millionaire anywhere".

Yes, so where are they getting the money to move. They're poor. And despite your difficulties reading his post, he clearly states that he believes this to be an encompassing solution to poverty. He states as his conclusion that the government should stop giving his money to the poor.


It says anyone, not everyone.

Uh-huh. This is why I think you're trolling. You're replying so I'm quite sure you read just fin. He said that he doesn't want the government to help the poor. That's not one person. That's *gasp* all of the poor. He didn't say, so now the government doesn't need to help Bob.


Actually, all non-elective healthcare is free in Canada. But, since it can't be rationed by price, it's rationed by waiting lists. If you need a hip replacement, you'll likely have to wait most of a year to get one.

I"ll admit that I see the doctor more than I would if I had to pay for it myself. Some of my visits might be frivolous, but since the marginal cost to me is so small I have no incentive not to abuse the system.

That's the point. It wouldn't be necessary to have health insurance in Canada, but it's necessary in the US.

Basic healthcare is free in Canada, is it not? Someone pays for it, but for the purposes of this discussion it's not the poor person using the healthcare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(Canada)

At least in Alberta, if you do not pay your health care, and you do not specifically get exempted from it, you will be taken off the list; you lose your healthcare number(happened to me).

In anycase, it is a tax, owed by equally by all residents. It is not taken out of paychecks(in Alberta). it is unlawfully distributed by the federal government out of general tax revenues(it is a provincial power/right). They withhold healthcare money as a bargaining tool so they may infringe on healthcare policy.

Uh-huh. This is why I think you're trolling. You're replying so I'm quite sure you read just fin. He said that he doesn't want the government to help the poor. That's not one person. That's *gasp* all of the poor. He didn't say, so now the government doesn't need to help Bob.
If you build a system that helps even the people who don't try, you create a free-rider problem.

If it can work for anyone, then anyone who doesn't do it is voluntarily choosing poverty. Do they really warrant aid?

If you build a system that helps even the people who don't try, you create a free-rider problem.

If it can work for anyone, then anyone who doesn't do it is voluntarily choosing poverty. Do they really warrant aid?

And it can't work for everyone as I've demonstrated. There are many it can't work for. Everytime I bring it up you claim it wasn't meant to apply to everyone, but you just stated that it does. Make up your mind.

Meanwhile, no is claiming that the system should be set up so that people should be rewarded for not trying. I am claiming that this is a simplistic, unrealistic and absurd solution. You've admitted that the likelihood this would work is low and that it doesn't apply to anyone.

And it can't work for everyone as I've demonstrated. There are many it can't work for. Everytime I bring it up you claim it wasn't meant to apply to everyone, but you just stated that it does. Make up your mind.
I have. That it can apply to anyone doesn't presuppose it can apply to everyone simultaneously. The universal application might be contingent on its not being widely used.

I have. That it can apply to anyone doesn't presuppose it can apply to everyone simultaneously. The universal application might be contingent on its not being widely used.

That's a contradiction, either that or my English comprehension just went straight to hell.

It can apply to anyone, ok, in theory it could.

THe unverisal application might be contingent on it's not being widely used. So the univerisal application requires it not be univerisally applied? Maybe I'm missin somethin.

I have. That it can apply to anyone doesn't presuppose it can apply to everyone simultaneously. The universal application might be contingent on its not being widely used.

However, his suggestion of the effect of such a program being available makes it clear that this is a program meant for everyone and meant to be widely used. Unless you consider it a reasonable argument that we pull the rug out from under 100% of the people who need just because a very small percentage of people, a very lucky percentage of people won't fall down. We've already established that in following this program you take VERY large risks that make it highly unlikely to be successful. I don't see how a low percentage of success could justify the removal of the entire support system that we've created for the poor. However, his argument, not yours, makes it clear that he doesn't consider it low percentage and he thinks it is a program available to all and that all could and should use. Your arguments to contrary don't negate his actual words and arguments.

That's a contradiction, either that or my English comprehension just went straight to hell.

It can apply to anyone, ok, in theory it could.

THe unverisal application might be contingent on it's not being widely used. So the univerisal application requires it not be univerisally applied? Maybe I'm missin somethin.

No, you see, despite the fact that the dictionary definition of universal is how you're applying it, he doesn't like that definition because it really should mean selectively applied. See, that's pretty much how every one of his arguments goes. He says something that is just by the meaning of English contradictary and then complains when you point it out.

For example - "Inductive reasoning isn't reasoning" and "your claim that Inductive reasoning is related to reason is baseless", etc.

However, in case you're unaware, if you disagree with him, as he has pointed out that most people do, then it's because your thinking isn't like his and is insane.

No, you see, despite the fact that the dictionary definition of universal is how you're applying it, he doesn't like that definition because it really should mean selectively applied. See, that's pretty much how every one of his arguments goes. He says something that is just by the meaning of English contradictary and then complains when you point it out.

For example - "Inductive reasoning isn't reasoning" and "your claim that Inductive reasoning is related to reason is baseless", etc.

However, in case you're unaware, if you disagree with him, as he has pointed out that most people do, then it's because your thinking isn't like his and is insane.

Oh good, I thought maybe I was having a stroke or something.

That's a contradiction, either that or my English comprehension just went straight to hell.

It can apply to anyone, ok, in theory it could.

THe unverisal application might be contingent on it's not being widely used. So the univerisal application requires it not be univerisally applied? Maybe I'm missin somethin.

I think he was referring to the fallacy (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/composit.html) of composition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition). The logic runs something along these lines: anyone may buy stilts and thus be taller than everybody around then. However, if everyone bought stilts, they would not all be taller than everyone else.

I think he was referring to the fallacy (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/composit.html) of composition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition). The logic runs something along these lines: anyone may buy stilts and thus be taller than everybody around then. However, if everyone bought stilts, they would not all be taller than everyone else.

Ain't nobody talkin to you boy. You're comparing relative measures instead of absolutes. Unless you want to discuss inflation which you dearly do not.


Anyone can be a millionaire. Meaning anyone could in theory accrue one million dollars.

Anyone could be the world's tallest person. Meaning you could buy stilts and become tallest, but since everyone else can be just as tall you're not tallest. If you say however "Anyone could stand 8 feet tall" it would be completely accurate.


See, logic!

Where are these 16% mutual funds?
What happens to mutual funds when the stock market crashes, as it does every 5 years or so?

Where are these 16% mutual funds?
What happens to mutual funds when the stock market crashes, as it does every 5 years or so?

you lose money, it's a long term investment.

the first year my money was in I got 20%, 3 years later I got 2%, this year 17% it's better if I don't look at it. ;)

2001 I actually lost a lot of money, but I try to forget that.

No, you see, despite the fact that the dictionary definition of universal is how you're applying it, he doesn't like that definition because it really should mean selectively applied. See, that's pretty much how every one of his arguments goes. He says something that is just by the meaning of English contradictary and then complains when you point it out.

For example - "Inductive reasoning isn't reasoning" and "your claim that Inductive reasoning is related to reason is baseless", etc.

However, in case you're unaware, if you disagree with him, as he has pointed out that most people do, then it's because your thinking isn't like his and is insane.
You make me sound pretty funny.

Just because the program is universally available doesn't mean it can afford to have everyone take advantage of it. Like insurance. Everyone can buy insurance, and anyone can claim benefits, but everyone can't claim benefits. The insurance system requires that only some people claim benefits, even though anyone could.

And just because the OP has no idea about living expenses, taxation or investments doesn't mean we shouldn't take him seriously. Oh, wait...

And just because the OP has no idea about living expenses, taxation or investments doesn't mean we shouldn't take him seriously. Oh, wait...
yeah, I already gave him my opinion as a professional financial planner. ;)

I think he was referring to the fallacy (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/composit.html) of composition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition). The logic runs something along these lines: anyone may buy stilts and thus be taller than everybody around then. However, if everyone bought stilts, they would not all be taller than everyone else.

Using that line of reasoning, one would be justified in assuming that if everyone had money, then being rich wouldn't be special anymore. Oh, horrors! That means the fabulously wealthy would no longer have any measurable way of justifying their misplaced sense of overentitlement and their feelings of natural superiority over the dirty rabble. We simply can't have that, can we?

"I wish those poor people would just go away, Muffy. They're just so... so... icky..."

"Yes, Binky, but they're so deliciously low that they're absolutely enchanting, don't you think?"

"Enchanting, yes, of course... Oh, look, Muffy -- here's a story in the Wall Street Journal about one of those poor people who just won the lottery."

"Well, if they're allowing just anyone to be rich, all I can say is, 'there goes the neighbourhood'!"

yeah, I already gave him my opinion as a professional financial planner. ;)

He might not believe professional financial planning from a clown though :)

There's a word for when everyone is rich it's "inflation".

He might not believe professional financial planning from a clown though :)

yeah, I have a lot of jobs. I actually had to go to school for the financial planning though.....not so much for the other jobs. LOL

Let's say that Bob starts working when he's 18 years old. He earns, say $6.00 dollars per hour. He works for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 50 weeks per year. In total, he would then earn $15,000 dollars per year. With that $15,000 dollars, let's assume that he spends $400 on food each month and $550 on rent, which means a total of $11,400 dollars in expenses each year. Hell, he can even spend another $2,800 dollars per year on miscellaneous items, which leaves him with $800 at the end of the year. Now, he invests this $800 in a mutual fund with an interest rate of 8% each year (typically, the rate is 11%, but 3% was subtracted due to inflation). That means that he will have about $362,000 dollars in his account by the time he retires at 65. If Bob starts living off his mutual fund from the time he retires, and withdraws $18,000 each year, he'll have $1,139,000 in his account at the time of his death at the age of 85. So even if you work a minimum wage job, you can still become a millionaire; if you were a savvy investor, you could easily double your income. All you need is a bit of frugality -- it's not hard. The poor have the capacity to help themselves if they so wish -- my tax money shouldn't be going to some could-be millionaires.



By the time he gets a million he would be dead... You also didn't account for what happens if he gets fired or other emergencies.

He might not believe professional financial planning from a clown though :)

Why Not? They're the professionals. (http://www.fool.com/)

By the time he gets a million he would be dead... You also didn't account for what happens if he gets fired or other emergencies.

Don't you know that being a conservative means that you can plan up to the infinite horizon and no surprises will ever arise. Conservative plans always go smoothly. :D

I think what the OP was trying to say was that with careful budgeting and by being frugal someone on the poverty line can stay there.

Sure they would have 1 million dollars on their deathbed.. but they would have been poor all their lives. I am assuming what he is suggesting is that poor people should know their place. They should stay in their minimum wage jobs till their 85 so they can make their 1 million dollar donation to the state.

Not sure its an opinion I agree with.. but I don't think it is untenable to suggest its possible to get by on minimum wage. People in the third world get by on a whole lot less. The question is whether that is a desirable lifestyle?? Now therein lies an entirely different question :)

Of course when you live in an area where your plumbing is the nearby river and the commute to work, if any, consists of 30 people in a 2 door car, there just aren't that many expenses. Expenses I have that I would not have to worry about if I lived in a third world village:

Heat. Either it's very warm already, or I can burn stuff. Right now I don't have a fire place, so if I don't buy oil at this grotesquely inflated price I well, in the coming weeks, freeze.

Water. There is no naturally occuring potable water here. It all has to be pumped down from upstate. My neighbors are shitting in the water that I would be drinking if my water was turned off. And Long Island water? Forget it.

Transportation. Urban sprawl means that most gainful employment is further away than a person can walk. I either need mass transit or a car. In a third world village, no one has a car, so employers have to handle that cost. Here most people can at least afford bus fair, so I have to fend for myself in getting to work.

Food. There is no edible wild game, commonage for me to hunt, room for me to farm my own produce. Hell, even when I lived in England 20 years ago we had a vegetable garden (and if I never taste another 'spring potato' it will be too soon). And this wasn't exactly the countryside. In NYC (if you count the boroughs) a 5x3 patch of grass is called a front yard. Third world villages, except during the desolation of warfare, almost always have some form of farming going on.

Even shelter is less of a problem in a third world village, because building costs are so much lower.

The way I see it, civilization owes it to it's members to provide some compensation for those things that are taken away. If society doens't provide you with the means to feed and shelter yourself and your family, then why are you even participating in it?

You make me sound pretty funny.

Just because the program is universally available doesn't mean it can afford to have everyone take advantage of it. Like insurance. Everyone can buy insurance, and anyone can claim benefits, but everyone can't claim benefits. The insurance system requires that only some people claim benefits, even though anyone could.

Yes, but it's universally applicable because everyone is permitted to buy insurance and in some cases expected to. This program banks on everyone that is poor needing this program but not using it. That makes it not universally applied. Universally applied means that it applies to everyone. You're counting on it not applying to some people.

Don't you know that being a conservative means that you can plan up to the infinite horizon and no surprises will ever arise. Conservative plans always go smoothly. :D



I could say the same about a Liberal plan.;)

I think he was referring to the fallacy (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/composit.html) of composition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition). The logic runs something along these lines: anyone may buy stilts and thus be taller than everybody around then. However, if everyone bought stilts, they would not all be taller than everyone else.

However if you said the universally applicable solution to being shorter than others is to buy stilts it would be nonsensical since if you it was actually universally applied, you'd still be shorter than others.

Yes, but it's universally applicable because everyone is permitted to buy insurance and in some cases expected to. This program banks on everyone that is poor needing this program but not using it. That makes it not universally applied. Universally applied means that it applies to everyone. You're counting on it not applying to some people.
You do realise that applying to anyone and applying to everyone are different things, right?