NationStates Jolt Archive

Moments ago, I learned that my mother and her family were ex-communicated from the Lutheran Church, many years ago, for essentially being too poor to tithe.

See, my mother and my aunt were raised Lutheran, as was every child in our family been since Martin Luther nailed "93 Reasons Why You Suck" to a church door. Even myself for a while...

At the time, her mother was a divorcee, and a single parent raising two daughters. Needless to say, in the early 60's this was still quite taboo.

So, having no money to tithe with, the church Ex-Communicated them.

So..my question to you all, is has anything like this happened to anyone you know?

What kind of image does a church portray when they exclude someone for not being able to give them as much money as the church says you should?


Personally, I applauded Mom for this one!

"Whoohoo!! Rock on Mom!"

Oh its only a paper moon, hanging over a cardboard sea, but it wouldnt be make-believe, if you believed in me.

Somehow, I think thats appropriate.

One of my Sisters went to a new church once, and during the service the plate come around for the collection, and the woman next to her told her off for putting summint like £2 in there, and she told my sister that God doesn't come free you know, and she should put in at least 10% of her earnings.


Heh my sis told here where to go with this God doesn't come free nonsense walked out and never went back.

One of my Sisters went to a new church once, and during the service the plate come around for the collection, and the woman next to her told her off for putting summint like £2 in there, and she told my sister that God doesn't come free you know, and she should put in at least 10% of her earnings.


Heh my sis told here where to go with this God doesn't come free nonsense walked out and never went back.

Well done.

I have no problem with a church passing a plate around.
Light bills gotta get paid, and the church needs money to help its congregation in times of need.

So..who exactly decides how much money a church needs?

God seems to be decidedly silent on this issue.

Well, whenever I walk by, clergy make the sign of the cross/avert their eyes/give me the evil eye. I must be doing something right. :)

Well done.

I have no problem with a church passing a plate around.
Light bills gotta get paid, and the church needs money to help its congregation in times of need.

So..who exactly decides how much money a church needs?

God seems to be decidedly silent on this issue.

I don't think God wants all that spare wealth. He is against greed, you know.

I don't think God wants all that spare wealth. He is against greed, you know.

Wich is ironic that this happens to so many people.
I would think that most churches would let such things slide.
I would think that the persons continued presence on sundays would be far more important to them.

Hmm....its a shame my true calling wasnt for the cloth.

I may have made a good minister.

Well, whenever I walk by, clergy make the sign of the cross/avert their eyes/give me the evil eye. I must be doing something right. :)

Its the clown thing.

They can sense the evil, you know.

Give them the "Dio Horns", and move along.

Well done.

I have no problem with a church passing a plate around.
Light bills gotta get paid, and the church needs money to help its congregation in times of need.

So..who exactly decides how much money a church needs?

God seems to be decidedly silent on this issue.

Well, not exactly silent. Offering in Christianity is descended from the feast of first fruits from the Jewish celebration still practised today. The feast is set before harvest when the first parts of the crop are starting to ripen. It was customary for the farmer/worker to take the best of his crop and offer it to the temple as a sign of faith. Giving up the cream of your harvest for God, not knowing what's going to happen in the future, whether or not you're going to have enough on which to survive.

However not everyone farmed for a living thusly the first of the crop was transferred into the first of the wages. The church or at least certain churches expect people to give a percentage of their crop in offering for God. Of course since everyone's income differs thusly so does the amount.

Giving up the best of your crop is an important aspect of faith in God and shouldn't be set aside lightly.

But yeah, in conclusion God has spoken on the issue, it's still vague, but not silent.

My maternal grandparents, aunts and uncles, as well as my mother all left the Catholic Church on principle back in the seventies. My uncle was attending the local Catholic high school, and he got my aunt pregnant. The school expelled my aunt, but not my uncle. In protest of such an unjust situation, the entire family left the Catholic Church.

Quite interesting story!

Well, not exactly silent. Offering in Christianity is descended from the feast of first fruits from the Jewish celebration still practised today. The feast is set before harvest when the first parts of the crop are starting to ripen. It was customary for the farmer/worker to take the best of his crop and offer it to the temple as a sign of faith. Giving up the cream of your harvest for God, not knowing what's going to happen in the future, whether or not you're going to have enough on which to survive.

However not everyone farmed for a living thusly the first of the crop was transferred into the first of the wages. The church or at least certain churches expect people to give a percentage of their crop in offering for God. Of course since everyone's income differs thusly so does the amount.

Giving up the best of your crop is an important aspect of faith in God and shouldn't be set aside lightly.

But yeah, in conclusion God has spoken on the issue, it's still vague, but not silent.


Verse?

Chapter?

Theres quite a difference between religious customs, and rules ordianed in scripture.
Such traditions like the one you mentioned were often implemented well after the Church was off and running.

If theres a place in the bible that says exactly how much to give, Im not aware of it, but I dont claim to be well versed.

Verse?

Chapter?

Theres quite a difference between religious customs, and rules ordianed in scripture.
Such traditions like the one you mentioned were often implemented well after the Church was off and running.

If theres a place in the bible that says exactly how much to give, Im not aware of it, but I dont claim to be well versed.

Not to mention most Jewish rituals (and by proxy Christian ones) are plagiarised from their pagan cousins.

My maternal grandparents, aunts and uncles, as well as my mother all left the Catholic Church on principle back in the seventies. My uncle was attending the local Catholic high school, and he got my aunt pregnant. The school expelled my aunt, but not my uncle. In protest of such an unjust situation, the entire family left the Catholic Church.

Props to your family!

Join us heathen offspring!

Hell will be great!
Everyone you know will be there!

Not to mention most Jewish rituals (and by proxy Christian ones) are plagiarised from their pagan cousins.

Christmas trees?
Easter eggs?

What??

No way!

:)

I had know idea that lutherans excommunicated people. I thought that was reserved for Catholics only.
Perhaps they should refund all the money your mother did tithe. Its disgusting!
I'm Lutherin by by birth, several German generations, but Idon't ascribe to any religion.

Many moons ago, the street where my Grandmother lived in Corby was organised Catholic, Protestant, Catholic, Protestant, etc. in order to prevent either side ganging up on the other too much.

One day a week the priest from the local Catholic church would knock on all the Catholics' doors to collect the share of their wages he thought the Church deserved. He was often disappointed that he received no answer...

...Because they were all at my Grandmother's house having a cup of tea :D

I had know idea that lutherans excommunicated people. I thought that was reserved for Catholics only.
Perhaps they should refund all the money your mother did tithe. Its disgusting!
I'm Lutherin by by birth, several German generations, but Idon't ascribe to any religion.

Neither did I.

I thought that was purely a Catholic thing.

However, Lutheranism, is pretty much Catholicism, with a few things stripped away.

They dont revere saints, nor do they do confessions, but they do take Communion.

Many moons ago, the street where my Grandmother lived in Corby was organised Catholic, Protestant, Catholic, Protestant, etc. in order to prevent either side ganging up on the other too much.

One day a week the priest from the local Catholic church would knock on all the Catholics' doors to collect the share of their wages he thought the Church deserved. He was often disappointed that he received no answer...

...Because they were all at my Grandmother's house having a cup of tea :D


Woot for Tea!

Props to your family!

Join us heathen offspring!

Hell will be great!
Everyone you know will be there!

Pretty much.

I had know idea that lutherans excommunicated people. I thought that was reserved for Catholics only.
Perhaps they should refund all the money your mother did tithe. Its disgusting!
I'm Lutherin by by birth, several German generations, but Idon't ascribe to any religion.

i didnt think they did either, it may not be the lutheran church as a whole but a single church within it. any church that watchs what you give as offereing is no church i want to be a part of. offering is not supposed to be shared it is too be kept between you and God. (if im not mistaken was that not one of the many reforms that happened between catholic and protestant?)

but they do take Communion.

do not most christian churches take communion?

i didnt think they did either, it may not be the lutheran church as a whole but a single church within it. any church that watchs what you give as offereing is no church i want to be a part of. offering is not supposed to be shared it is too be kept between you and God. (if im not mistaken was that not one of the many reforms that happened between catholic and protestant?)

Im not certain if ALL Lutheran churches do Excommunications, or just the one she went to years ago.

I thought it was purely a Catholic thing up until a few hours ago.

However, with all the similarites Lutherans and Catholics share, I wouldnt be surprised if they kept a few traditions.

do not most christian churches take communion?

Not to my knowledge, no.

The town where I live has more churches per capita than any other city, anywhere, and ive been in a few different ones.

Never taken communion in a Baptist church, but only been in one once.

I dont believe Methodists do, but I could be very wrong.

Lutherans do.

Catholics do.

I think Presbyterians do as well.

Also, several churches as "Non-Denominational" so they go either way.

Verse?

Chapter?

Theres quite a difference between religious customs, and rules ordianed in scripture.
Such traditions like the one you mentioned were often implemented well after the Church was off and running.

If theres a place in the bible that says exactly how much to give, Im not aware of it, but I dont claim to be well versed.

Leviticus Chapter 23:9 The LORD said to Moses, 10 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When you enter the land I am going to give you and you reap its harvest, bring to the priest a sheaf of the first grain you harvest. 11 He is to wave the sheaf before the LORD so it will be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath. 12 On the day you wave the sheaf, you must sacrifice as a burnt offering to the LORD a lamb a year old without defect, 13 together with its grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah [a] of fine flour mixed with oil—an offering made to the LORD by fire, a pleasing aroma—and its drink offering of a quarter of a hin of wine. 14 You must not eat any bread, or roasted or new grain, until the very day you bring this offering to your God. [B]This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live.
Theres more in Deuteronomy, but essentialy what I said before is true.

Leviticus Chapter 23:9 The LORD said to Moses, 10 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When you enter the land I am going to give you and you reap its harvest, bring to the priest a sheaf of the first grain you harvest. 11 He is to wave the sheaf before the LORD so it will be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath. 12 On the day you wave the sheaf, you must sacrifice as a burnt offering to the LORD a lamb a year old without defect, 13 together with its grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah [a] of fine flour mixed with oil—an offering made to the LORD by fire, a pleasing aroma—and its drink offering of a quarter of a hin of wine. 14 You must not eat any bread, or roasted or new grain, until the very day you bring this offering to your God. [B]This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live.
Theres more in Deuteronomy, but essentialy what I said before is true.

Yes, but that merely refers to the amount of grain or good to be given, not a monetary amount, nor guideline to use to decide to give to a church.
Merely an offering of the first harvest.

It does not mention 10% of your annual income.

Yes, but that merely refers to the amount of grain or good to be given, not a monetary amount, nor guideline to use to decide to give to a church.
Merely an offering of the first harvest.

It does not mention 10% of your annual income.

It depends on what you define as harvest. I don't exactly go out and bring in crops these days, however what I do bring in is money. I essentially harvest it to provide myself with a living. At the start of every harvest it's customary to give the cream of the crop to God, thusly people give money to God each month or whenever their paid.

The tradition continues and once again the amount given in offering is dependent on the size of the harvest.

It depends on what you define as harvest. I don't exactly go out and bring in crops these days, however what I do bring in is money. I essentially harvest it to provide myself with a living. At the start of every harvest it's customary to give the cream of the crop to God, thusly people give money to God each month or whenever their paid.

The tradition continues and once again the amount given in offering is dependent on the size of the harvest.

Right.

So, where did the ten percent come in?

Who decided it must be exactly ten percent?

You are getting tied up in a legalist definition in regard to a religion whose founder left the strict guidelines of the law in return for the great principle "Love thy God with all your heart, with all your soul, strength and mind." Christianity modified this harvest celebration to allow Christians to tangibly demonstrate their faith to God, while at the same time supporting others of the persecuted Christian community who were being discriminated against by the Roman/Jewish establishment.

I don't pretend to be an expert, however I am giving you the vague foundations on which offering is established. And it certainly stems from Leviticus and the Jewish traditions.

Right.

So, where did the ten percent come in?

Who decided it must be exactly ten percent?

No one decided it should exactly be ten per cent however, it is often seen as the disposible part of the income which can be sacrificed. Once more, it's certainly up to the individual to gift their income and decide how much is enough to lay their trust in God. I don't agree with what the church done, but I was pointing out that God wasn't exactly silent on the issue of offering.

Which is the point I'm getting at.

I actually got disfellowshiped from church when I was 16 because I listened to secular music and planned on going to prom.... it was compounded by the fact that I was the current youth minister so apparently I was to be held to a higher standard.

No one decided it should exactly be ten per cent however, it is often seen as the disposible part of the income which can be sacrificed. Once more, it's certainly up to the individual to gift their income and decide how much is enough to lay their trust in God. I don't agree with what the church done, but I was pointing out that God wasn't exactly silent on the issue of offering.

Which is the point I'm getting at.


Its not the idea of offering I have issue with.

Its the amount, and the fact that so many such churches make it mandatory.
Especially when they consider that to excommunicate a person, may be equivalent to damning them.

10% of a hundred dollars a week, is ten bucks worth of food for a single mom to feed her kids with.
Does that mean she should be removed from the church if she cant cough that up?

Of course not, I dont believe that, and neither do you.

So then, what we have is a practice of greed, used by Churches all around the world, for huge profit.

Never taken communion in a Baptist church, but only been in one once.

Usually Baptist churches don't do it every Sunday, they do it quarterly or on special occasions. (talking about my own experience here with Southern Baptists.)

Not to my knowledge, no.

The town where I live has more churches per capita than any other city, anywhere, and ive been in a few different ones.

Never taken communion in a Baptist church, but only been in one once.

I dont believe Methodists do, but I could be very wrong.

Lutherans do.

Catholics do.

I think Presbyterians do as well.

Also, several churches as "Non-Denominational" so they go either way.

interesting... the town i was born in had about 10 christian churches of various denominations for about 10,000 people(and these are only the ones i know of)... slightly excessive if you ask me:rolleyes:

anyway mormons excomunicat people aswell

Moments ago, I learned that my mother and her family were ex-communicated from the Lutheran Church, many years ago, for essentially being too poor to tithe.

See, my mother and my aunt were raised Lutheran, as was every child in our family been since Martin Luther nailed "93 Reasons Why You Suck" to a church door. Even myself for a while...

At the time, her mother was a divorcee, and a single parent raising two daughters. Needless to say, in the early 60's this was still quite taboo.

So, having no money to tithe with, the church Ex-Communicated them.

So..my question to you all, is has anything like this happened to anyone you know?

What kind of image does a church portray when they exclude someone for not being able to give them as much money as the church says you should?


Personally, I applauded Mom for this one!

"Whoohoo!! Rock on Mom!"



Somehow, I think thats appropriate.

My parents were both exiled from their own churches, and told that 'the church' would never recognise their marriage as legitimate. In the end, they married in a registry office.

Their crime?

My mother was raised Church of England, my father - Roman Catholic.

When my mom was young, she was sitting in Sunday school and someone came up to her and told her that, since her parents (who never made much money anyway) had not tithed, she was no longer welcome in the church. That pretty much soured my mom on organized religion, and I won't go to any church that requires tithing. I'll give what I damn well feel like, thank you very much, and frankly, I have bills to pay, debts to work off, a POS car that needs replaced someday, and I need my White Castle. Aside from that, the church is getting $600 out of us when we get married.

On the other hand, I am becoming a Catholic (can't take Communion yet in church...have to wait for Easter...don't think that's really fair, but whatever) and I told the folks in my RCIA class that, before I met my fiancee (a cradle Catholic,) I had been shopping around for a religion and considered becoming a Muslim. I might as well have told them I was from Omicron Persei VIII.

I was threatened to be ex communicated when the church found out that I told a theripist about being molested ...

But I left them before they left me

my mother in law was born in las vegas newmexico in 1930. it was a hard time to be born poor with an alcoholic father.

when her parents took her into the priest to arrange a baptism, they were reminded that they hadnt yet PAID for the baptism of their older child. so the priest decided that he would pass on the baptism of the new baby until they had done so.

her father, shocked, asked what he should do with the new baby and the priest replied "feed her to the pigs"

they became baptists that day.

my mother in law remained a baptist all her life. she played piano and kept the books for the local spanish baptist church until her youngest child died of luekemia. not only didnt the minister show up at the hospital when her daughter was dying (he had some party to attend) but afterwards, while she was still in mourning, the mininster's wife accused her of having an affair with the bastard

she hasnt set foot in any church since.

I was threatened to be ex communicated when the church found out that I told a theripist about being molested ...

But I left them before they left me

I'm automatically excommunicated for committing apostasy, heresy, desecrating the eucharist, gay adultery, establishing three cults, supporting abortion and farting in the pope's general direction. I laughed. I'm willing to bet 90% of Catholics would be eligible for automatic excommunication.

My parents were both exiled from their own churches, and told that 'the church' would never recognise their marriage as legitimate. In the end, they married in a registry office.

Their crime?

My mother was raised Church of England, my father - Roman Catholic.

That's remarkably excessive. My dad is Anglican, and my mum Catholic, and they've had no problems with that whatsoever. Same as another of my friends.

Speaking on the issue of offerings, the churches I've been to never pressured anyone into giving money... sure there were often second collections and people standing by the doors, but no one was forced to give.

That's remarkably excessive. My dad is Anglican, and my mum Catholic, and they've had no problems with that whatsoever. Same as another of my friends.

Speaking on the issue of offerings, the churches I've been to never pressured anyone into giving money... sure there were often second collections and people standing by the doors, but no one was forced to give.

Well, my parents were married in the late sixties, I guess... maybe that has something to do with it. Or maybe they both had very excessive churches?

Seemed like something of an 'extreme' angle to take, to me, also.

It does not mention 10% of your annual income.That verse didn't--in the version it was quoted from--but "the tenth" as a tithe is indeed a Biblical concept. How it's worded can vary by version, but I found these which DO specifically mention a tenth as the figure:

Deuteronomy 14:22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year.(Bold added by me.)

And in the King James Version:

Leviticus 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.


*Tips hat to BibleGateway.com's search function*

What kind of shitty church excommunicates you for being poor? I'm glad I'm an atheist.

What kind of shitty church excommunicates you for being poor? I'm glad I'm an atheist.

Yeah..

*baptises Ifreann*

Welcome to the Church of Discordianism.

Fergi America;11816535']That verse didn't--in the version it was quoted from--but "the tenth" as a tithe is indeed a Biblical concept. How it's worded can vary by version, but I found these which DO specifically mention a tenth as the figure:

(Bold added by me.)

And in the King James Version:



*Tips hat to BibleGateway.com's search function*

AH-HA!

I see.

I had always wondered why exactly ten percent.
Its a shame its from Leviticus, though.

That book is so backwards, you should start reading it at the end.

this only proves that churches (and religions by exstension) is a load of shit IMO.

this only proves that churches (and religions by exstension) is a load of shit IMO.

does the fact that you make such a sweeping statement prove anything about you?

I think it does. ;)