NationStates Jolt Archive

Why do you have these beliefs? In our society that is almost exclusively Capitalist, why do certain people among us hold Communist or Socialist beliefs?


Heres my personal reason:


My Mom used to work in Wal-Mart. They (the managers, etc) used to pay her bullshit wages to pick up extremely heavy crates that I would be hard pressed to carry, give her crap when she was sick or one time when she needed was needed to have her uterous...tied I believe it was for some reason, they barely gave her the time she needed to recover, and they almost fired her. She was their top Cashier, etc, every month, yet they almost fired her for a medical condition beyond her control. Then, heres the kicker:

Once she was asked to get a package on a top shelf by her boss. She did this, but on the way down she fell and hit her head. Subsequently, she was taken to the ER, where she was fine, but dazed a bit. Those sons of bitches FINED her for not using "The Proper Method of Decending a Ladder". I am not kidding about that either.

There were other things that played a big role in the development of my beliefs, but those were the main ones. I live quite well as I am wealthy, and yet my mother works very hard, for poverty wages, and needs to care for my Fragile X (Similar to Autism) brother, who cannot speak or anything. She has the heart of a saint, and I help her however I can.


Now keep in mind, I'm not one of those commies who thinks that all Capitalists are Imperialist Bastards or anything like that. I just tend to believe that things like...my mother falling off a ladder while doing her job, she should not be punished! You understand?

Anyway, my rant is over. What caused you good blokes to have your beliefs?

Why do you have these beliefs? In our society that is almost exclusively Capitalist,
And which society is that? There are communist, socialist, interventionist and mercantilist societies.

And which society is that? There are communist, socialist, interventionist and mercantilist societies.

I was referring to the fact that Western Society is almost exclusively Capitalist.

I was referring to the fact that Western Society is almost exclusively Capitalist.

Most Western societies are mixed economies. A mixture of mercantalism, socialism, and interventionism, mostly, with a little corporate socialism and crony capitalism tossed in.

Most Western societies are mixed economies. A mixture of mercantalism, socialism, and interventionism, mostly, with a little corporate socialism and crony capitalism tossed in.

Ok, thank you for the information, but we're kinda getting off topic. That really doesn't matter to what this thread is asking. What I'm trying to do is ask if anyone else has a reason for having Communist or Socialist beliefs.

Ok, thank you for the information, but we're kinda getting off topic. That really doesn't matter to what this thread is asking. What I'm trying to do is ask if anyone else has a reason for having Communist or Socialist beliefs.

Most communists and socialists I know don't really have a reason. They just discovered that's what they were. They (at least the ones I know) didn't choose their ideology so much as their ideology chose them. It's like a kid reaching puberty and discovering s/he's interested in sex.

Most communists and socialists I know don't really have a reason. They just discovered that's what they were. They (at least the ones I know) didn't choose their ideology so much as their ideology chose them. It's like a kid reaching puberty and discovering s/he's interested in sex.

Eh, I guess then I'm different. :D

When I was 14 my mother found out she had cervical cancer. Right after than she was in an auto accident that left her with several fractured vertebrae.

My father was typically years behind on child support payments. Mom was in too much pain to work. DHS factored in the amount she was supposed to recieve when determining whether or not she recieved any benefits. They alloted her 10 bucks a month in food stamps. No other benefits.

If not for friends who hunted or had vegetable gardens, we probably would have starved.

When I was 14 my mother found out she had cervical cancer. Right after than she was in an auto accident that left her with several fractured vertebrae.

My father was typically years behind on child support payments. Mom was in too much pain to work. DHS factored in the amount she was supposed to recieve when determining whether or not she recieved any benefits. They alloted her 10 bucks a month in food stamps. No other benefits.

If not for friends who hunted or had vegetable gardens, we probably would have starved.

Wow, I have no idea how to respond to that, other than to say: I understand why you'd have a chip on your shoulder.

I'm not quite a socialist, but I'm very much in favor of a well-regulated capitalist market with a strong safety net, so in the views of many here, I'm practically marxist.

I got that way because I've lived most of my life in the lower to middle economic classes. I've gone stretches of my life where I've been on government assistance despite the fact that I was working two jobs. I've gone longer stretches where I was in pain because I didn't have health or dental insurance and didn't have the money to go to the doctor. And I've read enough about the Gilded Age to see what happens when you remove too many restraints from capitalism. If it weren't for WWII, we might well have had a second American revolution--things were getting that bad for a while.

Strong social programs provide stability, and a stable society is a productive society.

I was referring to the fact that Western Society is almost exclusively Capitalist.
It's not. It's socialist, interventionist, mercantilist, and quasi-fascist.

Ok, thank you for the information, but we're kinda getting off topic. That really doesn't matter to what this thread is asking. What I'm trying to do is ask if anyone else has a reason for having Communist or Socialist beliefs.
But your rant begins with a false premise--as if some flavor of socialism or interventionism isn't the norm for most western nations.

It's not. It's socialist, interventionist, mercantilist, and quasi-fascist.

I'm not sure about europe, but the USA is deffinately not Socialist.

I'm not quite a socialist, but I'm very much in favor of a well-regulated capitalist market with a strong safety net, so in the views of many here, I'm practically marxist.

I got that way because I've lived most of my life in the lower to middle economic classes. I've gone stretches of my life where I've been on government assistance despite the fact that I was working two jobs. I've gone longer stretches where I was in pain because I didn't have health or dental insurance and didn't have the money to go to the doctor. And I've read enough about the Gilded Age to see what happens when you remove too many restraints from capitalism. If it weren't for WWII, we might well have had a second American revolution--things were getting that bad for a while.
Actually, the "gilded age" that you read about in schoolbooks is so utterly different from the reality of the situation as to be laughable, and socialism/fascism caused the depression to be as long as it was.

I really do wish people would do some research. I mean, if you want to be a socialist--that's ok. But don't give reasons that are just blatantly contrary to reality.

I'm not sure about europe, but the USA is deffinately not Socialist.
It's interventionist, mercantilist, and quasi-theo-fascist.

Actually, the "gilded age" that you read about in schoolbooks is so utterly different from the reality of the situation as to be laughable, and socialism/fascism caused the depression to be as long as it was.

I really do wish people would do some research. I mean, if you want to be a socialist--that's ok. But don't give reasons that are just blatantly contrary to reality.
You assume too much, sir. I've done extensive reading on the period, as well as research for a book on the period a colleague was considering writing. My particular interest was Henry Flagler, who was tied in with Rockefeller.

So don't assume my knowledge of the era is limited solely to what one might pick up in a high school or college textbook. That's an easy way to have your ass handed to you.

Ya know, I'm not terribly sure exactly when. Around 12 or 13 when the ideals of Communism and socialism(I'm a Communist idealist-I know it will never happen, but I wish it would) seemed a lot more plausible to me than the current situation of being poor with a father who worked himself nearly to death(He was a police officer), and received shit-poor pay, few medical benefits for himself, virtually no way of paying for anything other the the every-once in a while free medical check-up from the reservation health clinic(I'm barely at the cut off for that, I don't receive much, but it's better than nothing), wearing the same clothes two, three times a week, me and my brother having $100 to spend on clothing for an entire year, TOGETHER, until we were old enough to get jobs.

That, and I have grown a general disdain for American society, and the rampant elitism that is both present and encouraged in our society.

The world is seperated into the have and the have nots. The have nots want just to be comfortable. The haves just want more. At least in my experience.

I guess I just became more jaded over time.

Ya know, I'm not terribly sure exactly when. Around 12 or 13 when the ideals of Communism and socialism(I'm a Communist idealist-I know it will never happen, but I wish it would) seemed a lot more plausible to me than the current situation of being poor with a father who worked himself nearly to death(He was a police officer), and received shit-poor pay, few medical benefits for himself, virtually no way of paying for anything other the the every-once in a while free medical check-up from the reservation health clinic(I'm barely at the cut off for that, I don't receive much, but it's better than nothing), wearing the same clothes two, three times a week, me and my brother having $100 to spend on clothing for an entire year, TOGETHER, until we were old enough to get jobs.

That, and I have grown a general disdain for American society, and the rampant elitism that is both present and encouraged in our society.

The world is seperated into the have and the have nots. The have nots want just to be comfortable. The haves just want more. At least in my experience.

I guess I just became more jaded over time.

I agree with you, I have been fortunate as my father is decently wealthy (We're not fabulously wealthy, but we are not poor either), though as I previously stated, my mother is far from it...

I hate how it seems that this country has become for big buisness and by big buisness.

You assume too much, sir.
No, I don't. Given your words, it's a perfect conclusion.


I've done extensive reading on the period, as well as research for a book on the period a colleague was considering writing. My particular interest was Henry Flagler, who was tied in with Rockefeller.
Then you knowingly lied. That's an easy way to have your ass handed to you.

No, I don't. Given your words, it's a perfect conclusion.



Then you knowingly lied. That's an easy way to have your ass handed to you.

I'm willing to let you go with a "we've interpreted the historical data differently" if you choose, but my feelings about the Gilded Age are decidedly accurate based on the research I've done. I'd imagine that, based on this snippet of conversation, we have much different views on what is beneficial economically speaking, and I'm certainly not going to get into a screaming match about that tonight--there's a wide range of views and they're all, to some length or another legitimate. Much of any belief on economics is based on the outcome you're hoping for, after all. If we vary in that, then there's really no way we can come to any accord on what is good and what is bad in an economic system, can we? You're certainly not going to "prove me wrong," nor will I do the same to you.

But don't you ever question my honesty again, or I will not hesitate to spit you like a roast pig in any debate I can.

The fact I'm raised in liberal Democrat, blue-collar, working class family. My dad gave my socialist ideas. I mean he's not anti-capitalist, he's more of social welfare type, as in universal health care.

He works for the state (Massachusetts), at a college doing HVAC work and dealing with idiots in general, both fellow workers and management.

My mom is a secretary for the local water department whose headquarters is just down the road from my house.

But yeah, I'm a democratic socialist.

I'm willing to let you go with a "we've interpreted the historical data differently" if you choose, but my feelings about the Gilded Age are decidedly accurate based on the research I've done.
Then you've not done enough. Either way--lying or not doing enough research--is an easy enough way to get your ass handed to you.

And I will question your honesty any time I damn well so see that you aren't being honest. If you want to "spit me like a roast pig"--feel free to give your best effort. You'll fail, but feel free to try.

What is the guilded age anyway? I bet dollars to donuts no one actually knows the biggest economic trend in the late 19th C US.

Then you've not done enough. Either way--lying or not doing enough research--is an easy enough way to get your ass handed to you.

And I will question your honesty any time I damn well so see that you aren't being honest. If you want to "spit me like a roast pig"--feel free to give your best effort. You'll fail, but feel free to try.

You're cute. Still believing in one truth when it comes to history, I see. Your way or none at all, huh? Must be nice to live in such a neat and tidy world as that.

Too bad for you the world isn't actually like that. You'll get pwned and won't even realise its happened.

What is the guilded age anyway? I bet dollars to donuts no one actually knows the biggest economic trend in the late 19th C US.

Guilded Age is circa post-Civil War U.S.A. to about 1900. Somewhere around there.

Then you've not done enough. Either way--lying or not doing enough research--is an easy enough way to get your ass handed to you.

And I will question your honesty any time I damn well so see that you aren't being honest. If you want to "spit me like a roast pig"--feel free to give your best effort. You'll fail, but feel free to try.

You're cute. Still believing in one truth when it comes to history, I see. Your way or none at all, huh? Must be nice to live in such a neat and tidy world as that.

Too bad for you the world isn't actually like that. You'll get pwned and won't even realise its happened.

*pulls up chair, grabs popcorn*

this gonna be great, should be on PPV.

*pulls up chair, grabs popcorn*

this gonna be great, should be on PPV.

*also pulls up chair, sets up video camera*

Would you share that popcorn with a buddy? :D

Most communists and socialists I know don't really have a reason. They just discovered that's what they were. They (at least the ones I know) didn't choose their ideology so much as their ideology chose them. It's like a kid reaching puberty and discovering s/he's interested in sex.I can see that; was this the same way you discovered your own ideology?

Guilded Age is circa post-Civil War U.S.A. to about 1900. Somewhere around there.

No shit sherlock. I didn't know that, which is why I omitted a reference to the late 19th century in my question.

The plain fact is people blat around the term guilded age and they know bugger all about the fucking underlying economic trends during that period. But don't worry, they read a paragraph or two of S. Clemens so they are fit to set fiscal policy in the future.

I can see that; was this the same way you discovered your own ideology?

Everyone's ideology is formed by personal experiance.

My beef with communism is that by nature is stifles individuality and indevidaul success. I don't like the idea of everything being devided up equal by a higher government, it scares me. At the same time, I am very much a socialist, and beleive governments primary goal is to help it's people.

Now, as for idealist communism, my ideal is a world where everyone has a job, and people help each other out of goodness. No specific ideology, just people being people and doing their thing, think like survivors of a disaster, who help each other to survive, but sans-disaster and on a global scale. Of course, second to that I like a regulated capatilasm, like I said above, I find current model communism stifling.

Why do you have these beliefs? In our society that is almost exclusively Capitalist, why do certain people among us hold Communist or Socialist beliefs?


Heres my personal reason:


My Mom used to work in Wal-Mart. They (the managers, etc) used to pay her bullshit wages to pick up extremely heavy crates that I would be hard pressed to carry, give her crap when she was sick or one time when she needed was needed to have her uterous...tied I believe it was for some reason, they barely gave her the time she needed to recover, and they almost fired her. She was their top Cashier, etc, every month, yet they almost fired her for a medical condition beyond her control. Then, heres the kicker:

Once she was asked to get a package on a top shelf by her boss. She did this, but on the way down she fell and hit her head. Subsequently, she was taken to the ER, where she was fine, but dazed a bit. Those sons of bitches FINED her for not using "The Proper Method of Decending a Ladder". I am not kidding about that either.

There were other things that played a big role in the development of my beliefs, but those were the main ones. I live quite well as I am wealthy, and yet my mother works very hard, for poverty wages, and needs to care for my Fragile X (Similar to Autism) brother, who cannot speak or anything. She has the heart of a saint, and I help her however I can.


Now keep in mind, I'm not one of those commies who thinks that all Capitalists are Imperialist Bastards or anything like that. I just tend to believe that things like...my mother falling off a ladder while doing her job, she should not be punished! You understand?

Anyway, my rant is over. What caused you good blokes to have your beliefs?
I agree with you when it comes to how you treat your employees. It doesn't matter who they are or what they make: you treat them with respect.

However, I do have to say one thing, and it has to do with the argument about "working hard" I hear all the time from socialists that just doesn't make sense. I work extremely hard at my job at Wendy's. Know what I make? 7.75 an hour. And I'm happy with that, because that's what I'm worth. The simple fact is, no matter how hard working a person is, the job that they do determines the cost effectiveness of their pay. I could be the hardest working person on the planet, and I'd still probably be paid no more than 9.00 an hour at my job, because no matter how hard working I am, there's a point where it's simply not cost effective or monetarily efficient to pay me more. It's just how an economy works if it wants to be healthy.

That said, people do deserve living wages. How we go about doing that without taxing very well I still haven't figured out. I'm trying to balance my economic views with my social views, and they'll occasionally clash on something like this.

One thing I do personally think no one should have to pay for is the heating to keep pipes from freezing in the winter. That seriously harms a lot of people's budgets every year, and the fact is, it's necessary, lest they have pipes that shatter. Thusly, since it's something unavoidable, I think it should be governmentally sponsered or something like that. A stipend of sorts giving to the company providing the heating to make up for lost profits. (Of course, how we go about determining how much a person needs to keep their pipes from freezing is a whole different level of difficult.)

My reason is that I grew up raised by my mother. She made less than $20,000 a year and still managed to raise two kids without going into debt, or ruining her credit. I grew up seeing everyone with their Nikes and their CD players (big ticket items when I was a kid), they would have a wallet with a hundred dollar bill and complain they had no money. They lived comfortable lives with plush couches, and big screen TVs and say "it's not much", and my mother didn't go to a dentist for seven years just so she could keep food on the table. All of this really made me realize, at a very early age, that while Bill Gates and Ted Turner and Rupert Murdoch make a million for hitting the toilet when they piss, there are millions of single mothers struggling to keep their kids fed. To me it just seems like good sense to put caps on how much you can make, it just makes sense to have a $10 minimum wage (anything less is a joke if you have kids). I think we should have socialized health and dental. I'm not trying to make anyone else into a socialist, or trying to get sympathy, it's just my reason for believing that a system of socialism is a good idea.

My beef with communism is that by nature is stifles individuality and indevidaul success. I don't like the idea of everything being devided up equal by a higher government, it scares me. At the same time, I am very much a socialist, and beleive governments primary goal is to help it's people.

Now, as for idealist communism, my ideal is a world where everyone has a job, and people help each other out of goodness. No specific ideology, just people being people and doing their thing, think like survivors of a disaster, who help each other to survive, but sans-disaster and on a global scale. Of course, second to that I like a regulated capatilasm, like I said above, I find current model communism stifling.

I'm with you on that. Communism is way too invasive. Now, if someone were to come along with a sort of communism thats main purpose was to put everyone on an equal footing economically, and encourage people to measure success by how safe, or happy you feel rather than how much cash you have in your wallet. Communism never really addresses the human element. Before communism can work, you have to change peoples mind set, and how they view success so they don't ask the question "WHy go to work? I'm a doctor and I make as much as the garbage guy." but they say "I'm a doctor and I'm proud that I can help people.". Can you see where I'm getting at? I'm nto wording this that well.

I'm with you on that. Communism is way too invasive. Now, if someone were to come along with a sort of communism thats main purpose was to put everyone on an equal footing economically, and encourage people to measure success by how safe, or happy you feel rather than how much cash you have in your wallet. Communism never really addresses the human element. Before communism can work, you have to change peoples mind set, and how they view success so they don't ask the question "WHy go to work? I'm a doctor and I make as much as the garbage guy." but they say "I'm a doctor and I'm proud that I can help people.". Can you see where I'm getting at? I'm nto wording this that well.

That's exactly the one main flaw in communist theory. Marx assumed that all people were born "good", that is with a sense of fairness and the desire to help others, and get crrupted by society. As that's not really the case and most people are born egoists who need to be taught about how to behave in society and who need constant tangible reward for their work, communism is a lovely dream but one that'll never work.

That doesn't mean that countries and governments can't be social in thier outlook. In fact that's how they should be in my opinion. They are elected by the people, and they should be there for them. Not the other way around.

My main reason was this.


I like the system where power resides among a few.
Its efficient.
Capitalism means power resides along the many, often those who dont deserve it but are simply ruthless businessmen or the richest or the prettiest.

In socialism a small amount of people hold the power, but awnser to the population and this is good for efficiency.

An efficient country is a good country.

Im also totally against Equal Pay societies.

They piss me off.


It it were a society of Farmers and Labourers, go for it.

If it has a doctor or a policeman, go fuck yourselves. They earned there degree and aside from those with disabilities anyone who could be arsed to do it could do it.
Which is why disabled people should get benefit, workers should get the same wage as farmers, and the middleclass should all be payed roughly the same.
The Governing class should be payed the same as the workers though.

*also pulls up chair, sets up video camera*

Would you share that popcorn with a buddy? :D

*Pulls up chair. Has cooler.*

What you guys want? I got beer, Mountain Dew: Livewire, Dr. Pepper, Barq's Root Beer, and Sprite.

im for a free healthcare for everyone, strong social welfare and a heavy regulated industry among some things. communism or socialism fits that.

My main reason was this.


I like the system where power resides among a few.
Its efficient.
Capitalism means power resides along the many, often those who dont deserve it but are simply ruthless businessmen or the richest or the prettiest.

In socialism a small amount of people hold the power, but awnser to the population and this is good for efficiency.

An efficient country is a good country.Too subjective. What's efficiency?Im also totally against Equal Pay societies.I suspect everyone, even the commies, are deep down. That said, I don't think capitalism is a good system, because it relies on greed to distribute resources. Parecon seems a better solution, since it relies on need.If it has a doctor or a policeman, go fuck yourselves. They earned there degree and aside from those with disabilities anyone who could be arsed to do it could do it.Professional police is always a headache. Set the wages too high, and you get incompetent fools. Set them too low & you only get thugs.

The education thing is easily solved. Make it the society's job to provide free education at all levels & pay students to educate themselves. Then doctors who thinks they're entitled to anything special simply because of their chosen profession can fuck off (as they should). Special benefits should be earned through hard work & talent, not by virtue of being smart enough & lucky enough not to flunk out of school.The Governing class should be payed the same as the workers though.Instead of that elaborate scheme, why not simply institute a basic living wage for all. Then people & workplaces can decide if they think it's a good idea to pile something on top of that.

What is the guilded age anyway? I bet dollars to donuts no one actually knows the biggest economic trend in the late 19th C US.
It's a term used primarily by those who dislike anyone who has a penny more than they have to describe a place that never existed. Supposedly, during the mid-to-late 1800s, the rich got super-rich and had untouchable monopolies, while the poor lost almost everything due to the rich capitalists trying to kill the poor with unsafe working conditions and generally working them to death. No, that's not a strawman of the guilded age believers, either: that's literally what they believe. Further, they believe that it was only because of labor unions, muckrakers, and the Benevolence of Government in the progressive era which turned the tide against the evil capitalists.

Now then, the reality couldn't be further from the "truth" (that is--the "truth" the socialists spew). While there were abuses and monopolies, ALL OF THEM were essentially done under the auspices of the US Federal Government or state governments. Take the normal example: railroads. The state legislature of California granted the CP railroad a 30-year monopoly for rail traffic in southern California. The CP and UP were also essentially government contractors, being paid to build the transcontinental railroad with government funds--and being paid by the mile to do so. Obviously, there would be abuses. If we look at the privately-run Great Northern, it never went bankrupt (unlike the government-contracted ones) and never had any "abuse" charges.

Until, that is, the some of the other railroad owners complained. Especially to people like John Sherman (for whom the antitrust act is named). The driving force of the later part of the 1800s was government-granted cartels, mercantilist crap called antitrust, and government-granted monopolies which mucked up the system for the privately-run companies.

That is the real history of the "guilded age"--not the lies spewed in textbooks.

You're cute. Still believing in one truth when it comes to history, I see. Your way or none at all, huh? Must be nice to live in such a neat and tidy world as that.
*yawn*

Whatever, babe.

Firstly, I am a capitalist because I believe everything I work on, anything I produce, has a part of me in it. I am not going to sit here and make moral justifications for it, but I do not accept any authority which says what I can and cannot do with myself (I do compromise often, though). Therefore, I accept the legitimacy of property rights in granting me the dignity to control myself and support myself.

That isn't to say that there aren't problems with today's system. However, those problems you addressed, are a result of government intervention into the economy, offering benefits to certain entities that it denies to others. This is not a problem restrained to capitalism, either. Whenever government has the power to intervene in an economic capacity, even if it is ultimately accountable, it will continue to work towards special interest groups, providing non-universal benefits to them.