NationStates Jolt Archive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_New_Guinea

So, what do you think? Are Indonesia justified in their program of migration to replace the natives? or are they carrying out genocide?

There never was any justification for western New Guinea to be annexed by Indonesia. The consequences of colonialism.

The obvious answer would be for the indigenous peoples of western New Guinea to decide what they want to do, but that's not going to happen any time soon.

Ick. Indonesia needs to get the fuck out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_New_Guinea

So, what do you think? Are Indonesia justified in their program of migration to replace the natives? or are they carrying out genocide?
I don't know enough about the situation to know if it's actually "genocide", but the sheer number of the people newly placed on the island makes it pretty obvious that indigenous culture probably won't survive much longer.

Indonesia basically uses the island as a dumping ground for its burgeoning population (Java, anyone?) and as a free-for-all of natural ressources, esp. timber. Obviously, none of this bodes well for the native population or the land. :/

I can't vote in the poll because I don't know if independence or integration with Papua New Guinea would be better - I simply don't know enough about the region.

fuck indonesia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_New_Guinea

So, what do you think? Are Indonesia justified in their program of migration to replace the natives? or are they carrying out genocide?

Don't know if its genocide, but its fucking wrong all the same....

Ick. Indonesia needs to get the fuck out.
yes get the fuck out like Jello Biafra said

fuck indonesia

yes fuck them who need asshole like them telling you what to do

I don't know enough about the situation to know if it's actually "genocide", but the sheer number of the people newly placed on the island makes it pretty obvious that indigenous culture probably won't survive much longer.

Don't know if its genocide, but its fucking wrong all the same....

it almost certainly counts as "cultural genocide"

If this is Indonesian terretory then Indonesia is completely justified in encouraging its people to relocate, as long as no forced relocations are taking place. The region is underpopulated and underdeveloped, Indonesia, as a dynamic developing economy, promises to remedy these problems.

Flooding this region with Indonesians, if that is indeed what is happening, does not amount to genocide (last time I checked people needed to be systematically killed for that). The Tribal cultures may lose their hegemony, so what? The fact is that Tribal cultures are unable to provide the material and economic benefits that their people demand. They are anachronistic and should not be protected (neither should they be destroyed, just not protected) by any authority as its people are better off without having to carry the dead weight of an irrelevent culture.

What is best for the people of this region is for them to embrace Indonesia as the dynamic multicultural nation it is and to attempt to integrate within it whilst maintaining their own identities. Whilst I acknowledge and respect that some may not wish to, I sincerely hope they do not begin another armed insurrection in the region.

The Tribal cultures may lose their hegemony, so what? The fact is that Tribal cultures are unable to provide the material and economic benefits that their people demand. They are anachronistic and should not be protected (neither should they be destroyed, just not protected) by any authority as its people are better off without having to carry the dead weight of an irrelevent culture.

that's some burden you carry

Whilst I acknowledge and respect that some may not wish to, I sincerely hope they do not begin another armed insurrection in the region.

the resistance has been fighting ever since indonesia invaded in the 60s. you know, when indonesia went on its own colonialist land grab.

If this is Indonesian terretory then Indonesia is completely justified in encouraging its people to relocate, as long as no forced relocations are taking place. The region is underpopulated and underdeveloped, Indonesia, as a dynamic developing economy, promises to remedy these problems.


They aren't seen as "problems" by the indigenous population. Quite the contrary; overpopulation would be a significantly greater problem than the reverse. Also, it is Indonesian territory only because Indonesia annexed it.


Flooding this region with Indonesians, if that is indeed what is happening, does not amount to genocide (last time I checked people needed to be systematically killed for that).

Clearly you've never heard of cultural genocide.


The Tribal cultures may lose their hegemony, so what? The fact is that Tribal cultures are unable to provide the material and economic benefits that their people demand.

I happen to know a bit about South Pacific indigenous societies. Obviously you do not, or you wouldn't be spouting such rubbish. Many New Guineans still live in "stone age" societies, and do not "demand" "economic benefits". Their economic systems are more than apt for providing all their needs. I know a fair bit about New Guinean traditional socio-economic systems; how much do you know, I wonder?

Your ignorance is sadly obvious.

Flooding this region with Indonesians, if that is indeed what is happening, does not amount to genocide (last time I checked people needed to be systematically killed for that).

# 1967: Operasi Tumpas (operation obliteration). 1,500 alleged dead in Ayamaru, Teminabuan and Inanuatan.
# Apr 1969: Aerial bombing of Wissel Lake District (Paniai and Enarotali area); 14,000 survivors escape into the jungle.
# May 1970: Massacre of women and children by Indonesian troops. Witnesses reported seeing a woman gutted, her baby dissected on the spot and the baby's aunt gang-raped.
# Jun 1971: Mr Henk de Mari reported that 55 men from two villages in North Biak were forced to dig their own graves before being shot. Published in Dutch daily De Telegraaf Oct 1974.
# Unknown: 500 Papuan corpses found in jungle Lereh District, south west of Sentani Airport, Jayapura region.
# 1974: In North Biak, 45 Papuans killed, names and ages known.
# 1975: In Biak, at least 41 people from Arwam and Rumbin villages were killed.
# 1977: Aerial bombing of Akimuga (Freeport McMoRan Inc. mine area).
# 1977-78: Aerial bombing of Baliem Valley.
# Apr 1978: Six unidentifiable bodies were discovered in the Dosai district of Jayapura.
# May 1978: Five OPM (Organisasi Papua Merdeka) leaders surrender to save the village they were caught in. They are beaten to death with red hot iron bars and their bodies thrown into a pit latrine. The 125 villagers were then machine gunned as suspected OPM sympathizers.
# Jun 1978: 14 corpses found shot, West of Sentani Airport, Jayapura region.
# Jun 1978: 6 women gang-raped, shot, and then had their vaginas stuffed with sweet potato leaves and red berries after death following suspicion of collaboration with OPM. Babuma Village, Kelila District, Jayawijaya.
# Jul 1978: 122 people (116 men, six women) fled into jungle with ABRI (Indonesian "red beret" military) in pursuit. The villagers were captured, had their hands and feet bound, were weighted and bagged, then dumped at sea. Merauke area.
# Unknown: North Biak, 12 people shot after receiving permission to leave camp to collect sago for a village feast.
# 1981: 10 killed, 58 disappear without trace. Paniai Region.
# Jun-Aug 1981: Operasi Sapuh bersih (Operation Clean Sweep), populations of Ampas-Waris and Batte-Arso villages bayoneted and left.
# Sep-Dec 1981: estimated 13,000 killed in the central highlands.
# Jul 1984: Naval, air, and ground troop assault of Nagasawa/Ormo Kecil village, 200 dead.
# Unknown: Naval shelling of Taronta, Takar, and Masi-Masi coastal villages; survivors fled towards Jayapura; under Dutch in 1950 each village had 1500 to 2000 population.
# mid 1985: 2,500 killed in Paniai area of Wissel Lake district, including 115 from Iwandoga and Kugapa villages massacred by troops 24/6/1985; 10 people, the village, food gardens, and livestock of Epomani village, Obano Sub-district; 15 people, village, and livestock of Ikopo village Monemane district; and 517 people, 12 villages, food gardens, and live-stock of Monemane.
# 1986-87: 34 known persons shot, Paniai/Wissel Lake District.
# 2001 Theys Eluay, president of the OPM, is kidnapped and murdered by Indonesian soldiers.

an look what happen in timor when they invade and when they left east timor

an look what happen in timor when they invade and when they left east timor

the indonesian military refused to leave without committing a few more atrocities?

the indonesian military refused to leave without committing a few more atrocities?

an thats what they did

an whos not to say they had a hand in what just happen this year

We can blame the dutch for not manning up and putting down the independance movement.

This one seems simpler than it is. It is easy to look at a map and look at the people and say "Papua should be one country". However, I do not agree.

First of all, West Papua was a part of the previous dutch colony that forms Indonesia today (Unlike, say Eat Timor), so Indonesia is definitely justified in it's claim to WP.

Next up, Indonesia is made of many cultral groups and races which form their own semi-autonomous states. I'm sure you have heard of Aceh? Indonesia is also full of chinese, Malay, Polynesian and Indian populations. You will find PNG-esque natives as far up as Malaysia. They are just a majority in West Papua. As such, the claim that West Papua should be independent of Indonesia on racial/religious grounds is not truly valid.

Also, it is actually in the interests of the West Papuans to stay with Indonesia. Indonesia is a rising economic power with rapidly improving living standards. West Papua is a third world crap-hole full of useless Papuans indoctrinated into the 'Won-tok' system (the most effective social construct in obliterating developement since communism). If West Papua were to join PNG they would remain/become a starving, corrupt, shit-hole just like PNG. Whereas if they stay with Indonesia they stand a chance at becoming a wealthy, corrupt, shit-hole. I know which I'd prefer.

Finally, it would be a massive blow to Indonesian solidarity and unity. Plenty of Indonesian states are just waiting for a pretext to succeed. They thought they had it with East Timor (but as I said before, East Timor should never have been a part of Indonesia). Indonesia has managed to maintain stability by handing out further autonomy to the seperatist states. It would be a disaster for all indonesians and south east asian developement if Indonesia were to break up. Further, if handled correctly Indonesia can and will become the example not only to the 3rd world, but also to the Muslim world, (alongside Malaysia and Turkey).

*snip*
I happen to know a bit about South Pacific indigenous societies. Obviously you do not, or you wouldn't be spouting such rubbish. Many New Guineans still live in "stone age" societies, and do not "demand" "economic benefits". Their economic systems are more than apt for providing all their needs. I know a fair bit about New Guinean traditional socio-economic systems; how much do you know, I wonder?

What are you serious?! PNG is a giant economic disaster, they have widespread starvation, homelessness, relocation to cities, unemployment, corruption, and welfarism (from Australia). It would seem you do not know as much about New Guinean traditional socio-economic systems as you purport. Otherwise I am sure you'd be aware of the how mind-numbingly, frustratingly, impossible it is for these people to maintain any kind of developement whatsoever thanks to their wondeful socio-economic construct commonly known as 'Won-Tok' or 'One-Talk'. But you knew that, eh?

First of all, West Papua was a part of the previous dutch colony that forms Indonesia today (Unlike, say Eat Timor), so Indonesia is definitely justified in it's claim to WP.

yes, because self-determination doesn't enter into it at all. no siree.

West Papua is a third world crap-hole full of useless Papuans

wow, you sound like loads of fun

fuck indonesia

Watch what you say. I have friends who are Indonesian.

Regarding Western New Guinea, though, all I can say is, let's pray there's not a repeat of East Timor.

And why isn't there a "let the people themselves decide" option?

yes, because self-determination doesn't enter into it at all. no siree. That was one of three points in a three-point arguement.



wow, you sound like loads of fun

"West Papua is a third world crap-hole full of useless Papuans indoctrinated into the 'Won-tok' system (the most effective social construct in obliterating developement since communism)."
Nice selective quoting. :rolleyes:

Watch what you say. I have friends who are Indonesian.

Regarding Western New Guinea, though, all I can say is, let's pray there's not a repeat of East Timor.
East Timor shouldn't get out. They were 'released' on the basis that they were not a part of the original Dutch colony which was to form Indonesia as we currently know it. East Timor was Portuguese.

And why isn't there a "let the people themselves decide" option?
Because people don't know what is good for themselves, especially not in West Papua.

East Timor shouldn't get out. They were 'released' on the basis that they were not a part of the original Dutch colony which was to form Indonesia as we currently know it. East Timor was Portuguese.

What I meant was, I hope what happened in East Timor after Suharto invaded never happens again.

Because people don't know what is good for themselves, especially not in West Papua.

Then why not learn them experiment, and learn for themselves?

Then why not learn them experiment, and learn for themselves?
Points at PNG.
(-_-)---->_____________________________________________#%:mad: P!:mp5: *&N#:(^G#%:headbang: @\____
Everybody including the West Papuans are much better off in Indonesia. This now especially true thanks to the way Indonesia is developing the place. Perhaps after Indonesia has fully developed Papua may want to join them. WP seceding from Indonesia and joining PNG would be like California seceding from the US and joining Mexico.

That was one of three points in a three-point arguement.

none of which addressed the fundamental rationale for any government that even pretends to enlightment ideals. self-determination.

"West Papua is a third world crap-hole full of useless Papuans indoctrinated into the 'Won-tok' system (the most effective social construct in obliterating developement since communism)."
Nice selective quoting. :rolleyes:

the full quote doesn't help you any. seriously, does that burden ever get heavy?

The people should have the right to live as they wish, under their own rule.

We do not want modern life!
We refuse any kinds of development:
Religious groups, aid agencies, and governmental organisations
just Leave Us Alone, Please!

-OPM

bump

First of all, West Papua was a part of the previous dutch colony that forms Indonesia today (Unlike, say Eat Timor), so Indonesia is definitely justified in it's claim to WP.

Hardly. Just because the Dutch lumped them in together doesn't mean the West Papuans should say "Oh, ok, let's go with what our old colonial masters decided".


You will find PNG-esque natives as far up as Malaysia. They are just a majority in West Papua.

It's hardly a coincidence; they come from there.


As such, the claim that West Papua should be independent of Indonesia on racial/religious grounds is not truly valid.

Why don't you let the West Papuans decide that, hmm? Oh, that's right; I forgot. You have an ole' colonial, Kiplingesque mentality and want to guide the "child races" in your "father knows best" style.


Also, it is actually in the interests of the West Papuans to stay with Indonesia.

I refer you to my comment above.


West Papua is a third world crap-hole full of useless Papuans

Absurd racist comment duly noted and ignored.


indoctrinated into the 'Won-tok' system (the most effective social construct in obliterating developement since communism).

In answer to your question, yes, I know what Wan-tok is. Again, I refer you to my previous comment. Your racialist paternalism is as distasteful as your inability to see outside the restraints of your cultural subjectivity.

Why don't you let the West Papuans decide that, hmm? Oh, that's right; I forgot. You have an ole' colonial, Kiplingesque mentality and want to guide the "child races" in your "father knows best" style.

i'm surprised at how common that mentality apparently still is

Hardly. Just because the Dutch lumped them in together doesn't mean the West Papuans should say "Oh, ok, let's go with what our old colonial masters decided". I agree, the west pauans have no reason to feel obliged to continue as a part of Indonesia. However, the Indonesians have plenty of reasons, and a valid arguement to keep them.

Why don't you let the West Papuans decide that, hmm? Oh, that's right; I forgot. You have an ole' colonial, Kiplingesque mentality and want to guide the "child races" in your "father knows best" style. Ahhhh... I love the smell of 'ad hominem' blended with a spinkle of 'straw man' in the morning. To answer the question I think I detected in that sprawling morass of fallacies I think that seeing as Indonesia has a fair claim to the land, that the entirety of Indonesia (Including West Papua) should be the ones to decide that.



I refer you to my comment above. Likewise. *nods*



Absurd racist comment duly noted and ignored. Actually it when paired with its conveniently seperated last half (ala Free soviets) it is quite clear there is nothing racist about it. They are not useless because they are Papuan. They are useless because they are a) underdeveloped and b)subscribers to the 'Won Tok' system. Nothing about race to it. But if you are happy slinging mud, feel free. *zips up spray jacket*



In answer to your question, yes, I know what Wan-tok is. Again, I refer you to my previous comment. Your racialist paternalism is as distasteful as your inability to see outside the restraints of your cultural subjectivity. So you will just toss me another ad hominem, rather than an actual response to the economically backwards Won-Tok system? Or was the Ad hominem the response itself? All these fallacies are making me woozy. Funny you should mention the 'restraints of my cultral subjectivity' seeing as I learned about 'Won-Tok' from a Papuan man anmed Benny, whilst I was living in PNG, no less. But I'm sure you knew all that.

I agree, the west pauans have no reason to feel obliged to continue as a part of Indonesia. However, the Indonesians have plenty of reasons, and a valid arguement to keep them.


Indonesians may well, obviously, have an understandable wish to keep a hold of their colony-in-all-but-name. Such does not make a "valid argument".


I think that seeing as Indonesia has a fair claim to the land, that the entirety of Indonesia (Including West Papua) should be the ones to decide that.

See above.


They are not useless because they are Papuan. They are useless because they are a) underdeveloped and b)subscribers to the 'Won Tok' system.

Useless to whom? Themselves? Were it true (which it is not), that would be their decision. To society? Again, that's an issue for them to resolve, not something for Indonesians (or anyone else) to force upon them. To Indonesia? If that's your point, I hope you realise the irony of it.


So you will just toss me another ad hominem, rather than an actual response to the economically backwards Won-Tok system?

I am not here to judge their system and declare what they should do about it, nor to support external agents trying to change it. Your cultural subjectivity is apparent in your use of the words "economically backwards" and "useless". As long as you make no effort to understand the perspective of those you disagree with, my point stands.

Indonesians may well, obviously, have an understandable wish to keep a hold of their colony-in-all-but-name. Such does not make a "valid argument". You do know the difference between an arguement and an assertion, right?
See above. Likewise *nods*
Useless to whom? Themselves? Were it true (which it is not), that would be their decision. To society? Again, that's an issue for them to resolve, not something for Indonesians (or anyone else) to force upon them. To Indonesia? If that's your point, I hope you realise the irony of it. No, useless to me, according to my evaluation. My evaluation is based primarily on economics. Sorry, I know you needed that one...here have cookie instead. If you close your eyes real hard, it'll taste like wit.
I am not here to judge their system and declare what they should do about it, nor to support external agents trying to change it. Your cultural subjectivity is apparent in your use of the words "economically backwards" and "useless". As long as you make no effort to understand the perspective of those you disagree with, my point stands. What suggests I didn't. Or do I have to do it again in front of you on this forum? Validity should always rest on logic, and not the processes behind it. As such, let us return to the issue. The won-tok system was great for the stone-age population that was once the Papuans. Now they are quasi-industrialised, overpopulated, addicted to buai, starving and jobless. 'Won-tok' is an anachronism. It is indeed economically backwards in a developed world of developed economies. It is also quite useless in terms of economic developement (or useful, in preventing it). It would be nice to ditch Papua and let them be as they have for millenia, but it is too late for that now. Papuan culture, like most tribal cultures upon contact with the expansionistic and colonial developed world, has been shattered. They now need to adapt, if they are to continue (or resume) as a successful society. Either that, or purge themselves of all outside influence, demolish everything, retract into complete isolation, and attempt to put the pieces of their broken socio-economic society back together.

However, the Indonesians have...a valid arguement to keep them.

no, they don't. the only valid reason would be because the people of papua wanted to be part of indonesia. even indonesia at least pretends that self-determination matters. they just claim that it was decided in their favor under the completely rigged "act of free choice".

The won-tok system was great for the stone-age population that was once the Papuans. Now they are quasi-industrialised, overpopulated, addicted to buai, starving and jobless. 'Won-tok' is an anachronism. It is indeed economically backwards in a developed world of developed economies. It is also quite useless in terms of economic developement (or useful, in preventing it). It would be nice to ditch Papua and let them be as they have for millenia, but it is too late for that now. Papuan culture, like most tribal cultures upon contact with the expansionistic and colonial developed world, has been shattered. They now need to adapt, if they are to continue (or resume) as a successful society. Either that, or purge themselves of all outside influence, demolish everything, retract into complete isolation, and attempt to put the pieces of their broken socio-economic society back together.

assuming this all as true, for the sake of argument. so fucking what? you have yet to provide an argument against allowing them to decide for themselves what they should do and how they should live their lives, other than a naked restatement of paternalistic white man's burden bullshit.

As a part of indonesia they should have to convince the rest of insdonesai to let them go, which they can't. What if New YTork wanted out of USA? Y'know.

if new york wanted out, there is no way to stop them without giving up on any pretense to enlightement principles and government by consent of the governed and self determination.

How was you day FS? are you a commie?

anarchist, actually. but close enough.

if new york wanted out, there is no way to stop them without giving up on any pretense to enlightement principles and government by consent of the governed and self determination. See this is where we differ. It seems to be a matter of opinion. You are commited to the ideal of enlightenment principles, whereas I am somewhat of a Machiavellian subscriber to realpolitik. Unless I am mistaken, logic cannot win this one for either side. If you'd like, I can continue to argue my case, and provide reasons as to why I support the outcome that I support. However, I truly do not expect anything to come of such discussion.



anarchist, actually. but close enough. Ah! Me too. Only I am something of an 'Anarcho-capitalist' or 'freemarket-Anarchist'. I take it that you are a syndicalist or something of that sort (Left-anarchist)?

By the way, thanks for being gentle in your quoting of my last post. Most honorable.

assuming this all as true, for the sake of argument. so fucking what? you have yet to provide an argument against allowing them to decide for themselves what they should do and how they should live their lives, other than a naked restatement of paternalistic white man's burden bullshit.
Yes, in not so many words. Though not for the reasons of paternalism or white mans burden. More like economics. My idealistic outcome is the developement of all of the world, so that all of the peoples of the world can enjoy the lifestyle that currently only a few do. It is easy enough, but all too often politics, culture, war, religion, and such get in the way. As such, I view much of the said features of human socio-economics to be, how shall I say... Bullshit. In the circumstances of the context of this thread, all I see is an impoverished West Papua with a particularly nasty social construct that looks as if it might land them right where PNG is.

However, much to their fortune, a rising economic power has claim to their land. Or rather, technically, they are a part of this rising economic power. Realistically, to me it is not about the ethics of self-determination, so much as the simplest and most direct path to economic developement. I feel that if West Papua were to make a clear and well thought out assessment of the situation, they should discover that becoming an enthusiastic member of the Indonesian union is well in the best interest of the West Papuan people. If they don't agree, I believe they are in fact wrong. Furthermore, being a legitimate part of the nation of Indonesia, if they don't like it, the will need to talk with Mr. Yudhuyono and hope he's had a very very good day.