NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_headline=exclusive--teacher-axed-for-keeping-her-veil-on%26method=full%26objectid=17923551%26siteid=94762-name_page.html
EXCLUSIVE: TEACHER AXED FOR KEEPING HER VEIL ON
By John Kelly & Jake Morris

A MUSLIM teacher has been axed after she insisted on wearing a veil to teach young children.

Aishah Azmi, 24, was asked to take it off in class after pupils said they found English lessons hard to understand because they could not see her lips move.

The junior school in Dewsbury, West Yorks, said she could wear her veil in corridors and the staff room - but must remove it when teaching. Angry Miss Azmi refused, claiming the veil was part of her cultural identity, and was suspended.

A council source said yesterday: "It is ridiculous. How can you teach English to young children with a veil over your face?

"The children themselves were complaining. It is about what's best for the children."

And the Muslim Council of Britain said Miss Azmi was wrong to insist on covering her face.

Spokesman Dr Reefat Drabu said that in the presence of young children Muslim women were not even required to wear a headscarf, let alone a veil.

Miss Azmi has now taken education bosses at Kirklees Council to an employment tribunal. It will rule on her case in a fortnight.

Many of the 529 boys and girls aged seven to 11 at Headfield Church of England Junior are from ethnic backgrounds where English is not the first language.

The school says that because of this it is essential the children are provided with easily-understandable English lessons.

Council education spokesman Jim Dodds said: "This is nothing to do with religion. We accepted the veil could be worn anywhere else in school but not in the classroom."

Commons leader Jack Straw sparked anger among some sectors of the Muslim community last week when he said wearing the veil made community relationships "difficult".

Yesterday Muslim groups announced they had abandoned a protest planned to coincide with Mr Straw's surgery in his Blackburn constituency tomorrow morning.

Moulana Hanif, of the Blackburn Mosques Forum, said police told him they were unable to manage more than 500 protesters. Mr Hanif clams 8,000 were planning to attend.

hmmm...I don't think I would like to sit in a class taught by a veiled teacher. I would be very bored and probably go to sleep.

How about you? Do you think that this is wrong and the teacher should be allowed to keep her veil that she claims part of her "cultural identity"? or do you think that what the school admin did was right?

No need to cover yourself. Take it off to teach, put it on elsewhere.

hmmm...I don't think I would like to sit in a class taught by a veiled teacher. I would be very bored and probably go to sleep.

Because of her clothing?

...

I don't think I've ever consciously watched a teacher's lips during an english class.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_headline=exclusive--teacher-axed-for-keeping-her-veil-on%26method=full%26objectid=17923551%26siteid=94762-name_page.html


hmmm...I don't think I would like to sit in a class taught by a veiled teacher. I would be very bored and probably go to sleep.

How about you? Do you think that this is wrong and the teacher should be allowed to keep her veil that she claims part of her "cultural identity"? or do you think that what the school admin did was right?I think covering her face is obstructing her ability to teach.

Its not really about religion but about the practical ability to teach plus the muslim council in the UK said she was wrong to wear the veil, so meh. Why does she insist on wearing a niqab anyway? not like its required...

Most excellent.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_headline=exclusive--teacher-axed-for-keeping-her-veil-on%26method=full%26objectid=17923551%26siteid=94762-name_page.html


hmmm...I don't think I would like to sit in a class taught by a veiled teacher. I would be very bored and probably go to sleep.

How about you? Do you think that this is wrong and the teacher should be allowed to keep her veil that she claims part of her "cultural identity"? or do you think that what the school admin did was right?

If she was teaching deaf students, then yes, it would be important for them to see her face, so they could read lips. Any other students should be able to use their ears to hear her, so no, the school has no basis for requiring her to remove the veil.

As to your being bored, this is a problem YOU would have to deal with, not the teacher.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_headline=exclusive--teacher-axed-for-keeping-her-veil-on%26method=full%26objectid=17923551%26siteid=94762-name_page.html

hmmm...I don't think I would like to sit in a class taught by a veiled teacher. I would be very bored and probably go to sleep.

How about you? Do you think that this is wrong and the teacher should be allowed to keep her veil that she claims part of her "cultural identity"? or do you think that what the school admin did was right?
yes. If the veil, which is not required in the classroom, then she should take it off in the classroom because it's hampering her ability to teach.

if she really doesn't want to take off the veil, she can look for another school that will allow her to keep the veil on at all times.

If she was teaching deaf students, then yes, it would be important for them to see her face, so they could read lips. Any other students should be able to use their ears to hear her, so no, the school has no basis for requiring her to remove the veil.

Aren't these like young kids learning to speak english for the first time. If so, then wouldn't they need to see the shape her lips take to help them to make the correct sound/word? Besides it was the students who made the initial complaint that led to this.

*goes to pursue a teaching career wearing a balaclava*

this is another case of Cultrual Identity/customs vs doing your job. I wonder how many more of these will be popping up in the future?

If she was teaching deaf students, then yes, it would be important for them to see her face, so they could read lips. Any other students should be able to use their ears to hear her, so no, the school has no basis for requiring her to remove the veil.

As to your being bored, this is a problem YOU would have to deal with, not the teacher.

Wow, you're wrong. Learning English is primarily an aural skill, to be sure, but without some motions and facial inflections to link certain phonemes and morphemes to, it is much harder. Witness the level of ease in learning a foreign language while being immersed in it versus trying to learn it by an audio program. Most anyone you ask who has attempted both will tell you that immersion and face-to-face contact with a native speaker is critical to a quick grasp of language basics.

On top of that, kids under 11 years old might be subtly freaked by a faceless teacher. I know I would. Not only that, but the veil might have been altering the sounds she made, confusing the aural issue.

HER OWN RELIGION and the UK COUNCIL OF HER OWN RELIGION do NOT demand the veil in front of children. This problem is hers and if she cannot conform, she needs to go -- especially when the classroom was the only place they asked her not to wear the damn thing.

Well as we live a non-sexist nation i believe i should be able to wear a veil which hides my eyes, of course that means i can fall asleep in class and not be noticed, but thats a risk i must take for the betterment of Civil and Human Rights...

I'd say its a bit harsh but with the way things are in the UK currently (i blame G. Bush with Iraq and us getting involved, at least partly, we messed up after the invasion) this was definatly the right decision. I personally wouldn't want to be taught by a veiled teacher, and chances are i'd mess around a lot because, quite simply, i can't see their face and tell if their really angry. Not only that but its a sign of respect in my opinion to show your face, if i wore a hoody or balaclava into school i'd get told off and possibly a detention, so why shouldn't teachers? /rhetorical question (ignore any spelling mistakes :))

Edit:
*goes to pursue a teaching career wearing a balaclava*

Lol didn't see that before i posted, nicely done, i agree with that statement although im just going to go into school with one on...or a stocking over my face ;)

this is another case of Cultrual Identity/customs vs doing your job. I wonder how many more of these will be popping up in the future?

Well when people finally get over the "it's not pc to ask" then I feel the floodgates will open.

this is another case of Cultrual Identity/customs vs doing your job. I wonder how many more of these will be popping up in the future?

Innumerable. Western culture, especially the US/UK, have gotten so terminally litigious and entitlement-happy that many don't understand that some things just need to be dealt with and aren't the big deal they're being made into. It makes me wonder who the lawyers are who'll benefit from this fiasco and how quickly they slithered out from under their rocks to spring at this chance.

*snippage*
I personally wouldn't want to be taught by a veiled teacher, and chances are i'd mess around a lot because, quite simply, i can't see their face and tell if their really angry. Not only that but its a sign of respect in my opinion to show your face, if i wore a hoody or balaclava into school i'd get told off and possibly a detention, so why shouldn't teachers?

Very good points. My school doesn't allow the wearing of hats in class (and as a testament to how incredibly thick some of these kids are, they know the rule and yet continue to come in wearing hats...as if they enjoy being asked to remove them) as a sign of respect. Then there's feedback. Is she smiling? Frowning? Angry? Happy? Who knows? Base facial emotions are fairly important interaction indicators for kids.

I think it's important to note that she was suspended, not fired and she would be free to come back to work as soon as she agrees to the perfectly reasonable request.

I don't think I've ever consciously watched a teacher's lips during an english class.

Some students, however, do... especially in language classes where it is important to see how the sounds are shaped.

I am sorry that she was suspended... and if it were not in a class where she was teaching a language, I would be angered, but this is clearly a case in which it made her less able to do this particular job.

For instance: there was a case within the last few years of the NYC Transportation system firing a Sikh for wearing a turban rather than his conductor's cap (they said he was 'out of uniform'). He was perfectly willing to wear his badge on the turban and to wear the rest of the uniform. When it got to the courts, the judge ruled (and rightly, I think) that wearing the turban with his badge of office on it and wearing his uniform was not being out of uniform, as any reasonable person could see that he was, in fact, an employee of the NYC Transit System. The gentleman was reinstated with back pay, as I recall.

If her wish to be veiled, which is not supported by the experts on her religion, interferes with her ability to teach, then there is a problem that could be very easily solved by a compromise she has so far rejected.

Wow, you're wrong. Learning English is primarily an aural skill, to be sure, but without some motions and facial inflections to link certain phonemes and morphemes to, it is much harder. Witness the level of ease in learning a foreign language while being immersed in it versus trying to learn it by an audio program. Most anyone you ask who has attempted both will tell you that immersion and face-to-face contact with a native speaker is critical to a quick grasp of language basics.

On top of that, kids under 11 years old might be subtly freaked by a faceless teacher. I know I would. Not only that, but the veil might have been altering the sounds she made, confusing the aural issue.

HER OWN RELIGION and the UK COUNCIL OF HER OWN RELIGION do NOT demand the veil in front of children. This problem is hers and if she cannot conform, she needs to go -- especially when the classroom was the only place they asked her not to wear the damn thing.

100% agree

Well as we live a non-sexist nation i believe i should be able to wear a veil which hides my eyes, of course that means i can fall asleep in class and not be noticed, but thats a risk i must take for the betterment of Civil and Human Rights...

Lol didn't see that before i posted, nicely done, i agree with that statement although im just going to go into school with one on...or a stocking over my face ;)

Lol do it! Claim it's a new fundamentalist religious belief due to your stricter understanding of (insert religious text here), and claim that if they do not allow it that (put whatever God here) will eat their soul, plus that you'd sue them. I'd almost pay to see that!;)

I think it's important to note that she was suspended, not fired and she would be free to come back to work as soon as she agrees to the perfectly reasonable request.

Didn't notice that, but I feel the school has the right to fire her if she doesn't conform. Many workplaces have uniform rules and if she doesn't want to follow them then she should seek alternate employment. If the kids are complaining then she's not doing her job adequately.

Some students, however, do... especially in language classes where it is important to see how the sounds are shaped.

I am sorry that she was suspended... and if it were not in a class where she was teaching a language, I would be angered, but this is clearly a case in which it made her less able to do this particular job.

English classes in English speaking countries aren't really taught like a language. It's usually expected that the students can already speak english.

English classes in English speaking countries aren't really taught like a language. It's usually expected that the students can already speak english.

Quote:Many of the 529 boys and girls aged seven to 11 at Headfield Church of England Junior are from ethnic backgrounds where English is not the first language.

Edit: FIRST:D

English classes in English speaking countries aren't really taught like a language. It's usually expected that the students can already speak english.

Many of the 529 boys and girls aged seven to 11 at Headfield Church of England Junior are from ethnic backgrounds where English is not the first language.

Not in this case, alot of the students are learning English as a second language.

Edit:2nd dammit.

Quote:Many of the 529 boys and girls aged seven to 11 at Headfield Church of England Junior are from ethnic backgrounds where English is not the first language.

Edit: FIRST:D

I are stoopid :(

I are stoopid :(

No you just don't read the article.:D

I are stoopid :(

Yes. Yes you are....

*pats head*

.....but at least you're honest!;)

On one hand, it's a little ridiculous that she insists on being more strict and fundamentalist than the councils around her say she should. She rightly deserves to be suspended and should be required to teach with a bare face; that or she should teach another subject.

On the other hand, this shoots my entire idea of teaching school while decked out in plate mail complete with an armor helmet...

English classes in English speaking countries aren't really taught like a language. It's usually expected that the students can already speak english.

I am in a school where English is taught to non-English speaking children -- it's taught like a language to them.

Many of the 529 boys and girls aged seven to 11 at Headfield Church of England Junior are from ethnic backgrounds where English is not the first language.

EDIT: LAST, LOL.

On one hand, it's a little ridiculous that she insists on being more strict and fundamentalist than the councils around her say she should. She rightly deserves to be suspended and should be required to teach with a bare face; that or she should teach another subject.

On the other hand, this shoots my entire idea of teaching school while decked out in plate mail complete with an armor helmet...

Just go with a sallet so you can tip it back while teaching and the forward again to intimidate students on the corridors.

If it gets in the way of her teaching then she should either take it off or not teach. I really don't know how important it is to see people's lips when learning English, so I can't comment on whether or not it does interfere.

I are stoopid :(

"Me are stoopid" not "I". Please, a little more effort next time. Grammar correction tules can be fownd for free on the intersuperhighwaynet.

Because they "couldn't see her lips move"?

That's the biggest load of bullshit I've heard all day, and that's huge, considering the fact that my dad went on one of his psychotic rants this morning.

.. you people.

Have none of you stopped to think they she might be terribly ugly?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/6050392.stm

According to this report, she claims she would take off the veil in front of the children if asked, but not in front of male collegues. She also states the children have never complained.

Think we might have to wait for the tribunal results on this one.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/6050392.stm

According to this report, she claims she would take off the veil in front of the children if asked, but not in front of male collegues. She also states the children have never complained.

Think we might have to wait for the tribunal results on this one.

That directly contradicts the Haaretz report, it stated that the students made the complaint.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/6050392.stm

According to this report, she claims she would take off the veil in front of the children if asked, but not in front of male collegues. She also states the children have never complained.

Think we might have to wait for the tribunal results on this one.

Well according to that article

Kirklees Council said she was asked to take off her veil in class and refused, but the action was "nothing to do with religion", only a practical matter about making herself understood.

If this is correct then she's just negated her own arguement. What a tool. She doesn't have a hope in hell at a tribunal IMO if she claims it's nothing to do with religion.

Trilby63;11808004'].. you people.

Have none of you stopped to think they she might be terribly ugly?

It still works, get rid of the ugger and replace with a hottie!:eek: :D

Because they "couldn't see her lips move"?

That's the biggest load of bullshit I've heard all day, and that's huge, considering the fact that my dad went on one of his psychotic rants this morning.

Then the teaching of any language to any group for whom it is not their first language is bullshit.

Then the teaching of any language to any group for whom it is not their first language is bullshit.

Oh. I thought it was just an everyday English class.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/6050392.stm

According to this report, she claims she would take off the veil in front of the children if asked, but not in front of male collegues. She also states the children have never complained.

Think we might have to wait for the tribunal results on this one.

from the same article...
Headfield Church of England Junior School, in Dewsbury, West Yorkshire, said pupils found it hard to understand her during English language lessons.


But Aishah Azmi, 23, said: "They never complained." to her... perhaps they did but she took it only as a request to remove her veil.

She added she was willing to take the veil off in class, but not in front of any male colleagues. so why keep the veil on During class... is she sharing duities with a Male Teacher?

Kirklees Council said she was asked to take off her veil in class and refused, but the action was "nothing to do with religion", only a practical matter about making herself understood. ah.. a case of He Said, She Said... I hope the council keep good notes...

But Ms Azmi told the BBC: "It hasn't caused a problem between myself and the children. They've never complained and we had a brilliant relationship." a brilliant relationship is fine, but how were the students doing Grade wise?

Disputing the school's version of events, she insisted she had always been willing to take off her veil in front of the children but would not in front of male colleagues. again, so why wear the veil in class... unless this is true...
She said she had taught in class without the veil when there were no males present. note, not Male Colleagues, but Males. Maybe she should move to an All-Girl school...

The teaching assistant admitted she had not been wearing her veil when interviewed by a male member of school staff, but said she had not realised a man would be present.but didn't she have to walk to the interview (like from her car to the office, from her home to her car, etc... )wouldn't she be wearing the veil then? thus when she realized a Male would be present, she could've put the veil on.

She said: "The children are aware of my body language, my eye expressions, the way I'm saying things. isn't the veil apart of the garb which is supposed to hide the woman's figure? how can they read body language if she's wearing that? and I'm glad student eyesight is so great that they can see her eye expressions from the back row... or when she's behind them walking around...

"If people think it is a problem, what about blind children? They can't see anything but they have a brilliant education, so I don't think my wearing the veil affects the children at all."and deaf children? or those hard of hearing?

Then the teaching of any language to any group for whom it is not their first language is bullshit.

Oh. I thought it was just an everyday English class.

wow, thats 2 people going on rants without reading the full article. General is teh uber lazy.

Well according to that article

If this is correct then she's just negated her own arguement. What a tool. She doesn't have a hope in hell at a tribunal IMO if she claims it's nothing to do with religion.

Kirklees Council said she was asked to take off her veil in class and refused, but the action was "nothing to do with religion", only a practical matter about making herself understood.

Councill said it was nothing to do with religion, not her.

wow, thats 2 people going on rants without reading the full article. General is teh uber lazy.

I only read the bolded headline. And I'm not going to read any more than that, because I don't want to at the moment. :p

Kirklees Council said she was asked to take off her veil in class and refused, but the action was "nothing to do with religion", only a practical matter about making herself understood.

Councill said it was nothing to do with religion, not her.

I Think Shaolin9's point was that she was asked to take her Veil off during class, and she says she would have if she was ASKED...

so she was asked, but she still didn't take her veil off in the classroom... that was the point.

wow, thats 2 people going on rants without reading the full article. General is teh uber lazy.

I'm tired, leave me alone.

Because of her clothing?

...

No. Because I cannot observe body language and gestures etc. Purely audio classes (which is what this is kinda is) tend to bore me.

The way I see it, if she isn't willing to accept our cultural identity and follow our laws, she shouldn't expect to have hers accepted.Its like the Sikhs who want to be able to wear their turbans when they are riding their bikes. The helmet laws are for a reason.

Kirklees Council said she was asked to take off her veil in class and refused, but the action was "nothing to do with religion", only a practical matter about making herself understood.

Councill said it was nothing to do with religion, not her.

True, but IF correct then she hasn't a leg to stand on. (I did say IF earlier)

I Think Shaolin9's point was that she was asked to take her Veil off during class, and she says she would have if she was ASKED...

so she was asked, but she still didn't take her veil off in the classroom... that was the point.

errrrr..yeah, that's what I meant! (honest).

The way I see it, if she isn't willing to accept our cultural identity and follow our laws, she shouldn't expect to have hers accepted.Its like the Sikhs who want to be able to wear their turbans when they are riding their bikes. The helmet laws are for a reason.

Why should they be forced to wear a helmet? Its their head let them splatter it all over the pavement if they want to.

I don't support 100% borgesque assimilation for immigrants. There is nothing wrong with a diverse culture.

The way I see it, if she isn't willing to accept our cultural identity and follow our laws, she shouldn't expect to have hers accepted.Its like the Sikhs who want to be able to wear their turbans when they are riding their bikes. The helmet laws are for a reason.

that's an idea... a turban helmet... strips of very tough but flexable material that can wrap around like a turban, but will offer the same protection as a light helmet...

anyone see the market potential in this?


on the othe note... It's like the cab driver(s) that refuses to take guide dogs because they interpret the Koran to mean Dogs are unclean.

No. Because I cannot observe body language and gestures etc. Purely audio classes (which is what this is kinda is) tend to bore me.

and if she's actually wearing a Bhurka... and standing infront of a BLACKBOARD... :p

For instance: there was a case within the last few years of the NYC Transportation system firing a Sikh for wearing a turban rather than his conductor's cap (they said he was 'out of uniform'). He was perfectly willing to wear his badge on the turban and to wear the rest of the uniform. When it got to the courts, the judge ruled (and rightly, I think) that wearing the turban with his badge of office on it and wearing his uniform was not being out of uniform, as any reasonable person could see that he was, in fact, an employee of the NYC Transit System. The gentleman was reinstated with back pay, as I recall.

I remember that case. FYI, Sikhs get to substitute their turban in place of helmets in a lot of institutions as long as it does not interfere with their job. In my previous company (truck manufacturing), turbaned Sikhs were allowed in places where there is no requirement to wear hard top helmets....but in places where there is such a requirement, they will not be allowed. Sikhs who wanted that job had to cut their hair to get that job.

that's an idea... a turban helmet... strips of very tough but flexable material that can wrap around like a turban, but will offer the same protection as a light helmet...

anyone see the market potential in this?


Kevlar would be too expensive, and any plastic flexible enough to wrap around their heads wouldn't supply adequate protection.

Kevlar would be too expensive, and any plastic flexible enough to wrap around their heads wouldn't supply adequate protection.

so a thick, multilayer of Denim and Nylon won't work? Granted I know nothing about turbans, but it seems that there are at least two layers of cloth when the wrapping is done.

that's an idea... a turban helmet... strips of very tough but flexable material that can wrap around like a turban, but will offer the same protection as a light helmet...

anyone see the market potential in this?

hmmmm...that could work.

Sikhs in our army can use that, starting with the Chief of army staff:D

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Army-Chiefs/Chief-Army24.jpg

hmmmm...that could work.

Sikhs in our army can use that, starting with the Chief of army staff:D

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Army-Chiefs/Chief-Army24.jpg

question... is that a strip that they actually wrap or is that an already formed headdress? (don't want to call it a 'hat')

question... is that a strip that they actually wrap or is that an already formed headdress? (don't want to call it a 'hat')

It is a towel kinda thing that is wrapped around to form the turban. It can be taken out and put back in for a few times before it gets loose and has to unwrapped and wrapped again.

It is a towel kinda thing that is wrapped around to form the turban. It can be taken out and put back in for a few times before it gets loose and has to unwrapped and wrapped again.

hmmm... so a cloth of thick demim layered with a thin plastic mesh might work as a helmet... attach a detachable chin strap...

think it might work?

Should I make a seperate thread to not Hijack this one?

hmmm... so a cloth of thick demim layered with a thin plastic mesh might work as a helmet... attach a detachable chin strap...

think it might work?

Should I make a seperate thread to not Hijack this one?

Go for it.

hmmm... so a cloth of thick demim layered with a thin plastic mesh might work as a helmet... attach a detachable chin strap...

think it might work?

Might.

You need to talk to an actual Sikh to get the right perspective.

Should I make a seperate thread to not Hijack this one?

It's my thread and I don't mind. :fluffle:

Dunno about the mods though..:eek:

It's my thread and I don't mind. :fluffle:

Dunno about the mods though..:eek:

Go for it.

I put a new thread for that... and any other invention ideas up here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=503181).

A salutary development!

If the (alleged) female wants to maintain her "cultural identity", she can maintain it in whatever Turd-World landfill such attire is the norm.

Assimilate. Or evacuate.

Better yet, just evacuate.

A salutary development!

If the (alleged) female wants to maintain her "cultural identity", she can maintain it in whatever Turd-World landfill such attire is the norm.

Assimilate. Or evacuate.

Better yet, just evacuate.

How witty you are :rolleyes:

My Business Law Tutor is from Indonesia, and she wears a veil like this one (http://europa.eu/newsletter/images/new/citizen_77.jpg).

Nothing wrong with it. More problematic is that she gets cranky when she's hungry (she said so herself), and she hasn't been getting much food lately (Ramadan and all that). :p

As for this teacher...I don't think she should be fired for wearing a veil. She's not hurting anyone with it. But if she could have a guarantee that no older males just march into the classroom, she could take it off, because I don't think she'd be required to wear it in front of children.

Assimilate. Or evacuate.

Better yet, just evacuate.

The U.K. is a borg assimilate? When did that happen?

My Business Law Tutor is from Indonesia, and she wears a veil like this one (http://europa.eu/newsletter/images/new/citizen_77.jpg).

Nothing wrong with it. More problematic is that she gets cranky when she's hungry (she said so herself), and she hasn't been getting much food lately (Ramadan and all that). :p

As for this teacher...I don't think she should be fired for wearing a veil. She's not hurting anyone with it. But if she could have a guarantee that no older males just march into the classroom, she could take it off, because I don't think she'd be required to wear it in front of children.this veil that your teacher wore
http://europa.eu/newsletter/images/new/citizen_77.jpg
also, that's not a veil, but a scarf or headdress...

is far different than what the suspended teacher wore.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42199000/jpg/_42199872_veil2bbc203.jpg

My Business Law Tutor is from Indonesia, and she wears a veil like this one (http://europa.eu/newsletter/images/new/citizen_77.jpg).



Considering that in that photo she not wearing a veil there is no problem. The veil covers the whole face except the eyes (and in somecases them too with a mesh).

-snip-
Considering that in that photo she not wearing a veil there is no problem. The veil covers the whole face except the eyes (and in somecases them too with a mesh).
I suppose we better use the Arabic words for them then...in English "veil" can mean many things.

I always thought that you can overdo these things, and these black niqabs are probably a bit much IMHO. But that doesn't change anything - she's not hurting anyone with it. So I don't see why it shouldn't be her choice whether or not she wants to wear it.

Because they "couldn't see her lips move"?

That's the biggest load of bullshit I've heard all day, and that's huge, considering the fact that my dad went on one of his psychotic rants this morning.

You never studied a second language did you?

Watching the way the mouth moves is really important for pronunciation.

A few professors even told the class to watch their mouths.

I suppose we better use the Arabic words for them then...in English "veil" can mean many things.

I always thought that you can overdo these things, and these black niqabs are probably a bit much IMHO. But that doesn't change anything - she's not hurting anyone with it. So I don't see why it shouldn't be her choice whether or not she wants to wear it.
except if the students really couldn't understand her, (and we only have the words of both her (who says she never got a complaint from the students) or the Principal (who may have gotten complaints since the principal does not wander from class to class listening in on lessions... well, in the US they don't)).

also, she has repeatedly said, she would remove the veil in class, but only if asked, yet the council did ask, and she did not comply.

her conditions also changes from Male Colleagues to Males which can include Students.

also, wouldn't and shouldn't all this have come up during her interview?

I suppose we better use the Arabic words for them then...in English "veil" can mean many things.

I always thought that you can overdo these things, and these black niqabs are probably a bit much IMHO. But that doesn't change anything - she's not hurting anyone with it. So I don't see why it shouldn't be her choice whether or not she wants to wear it.

The Niqab does obstruct the student's view of her mouth, as it is an english class, it is detrimental to her job performance. Its a simple case of a religious tradition interfering with someone's job, if she were wearing a Hijab then the claim would be BS.

Also note that it was the students who compained initially.

My Business Law Tutor is from Indonesia, and she wears a veil like this one (http://europa.eu/newsletter/images/new/citizen_77.jpg).

Nothing wrong with it. More problematic is that she gets cranky when she's hungry (she said so herself), and she hasn't been getting much food lately (Ramadan and all that). :p

As for this teacher...I don't think she should be fired for wearing a veil. She's not hurting anyone with it. But if she could have a guarantee that no older males just march into the classroom, she could take it off, because I don't think she'd be required to wear it in front of children.

That's fair.

except if the students really couldn't understand her...
True. In that case you have my permission to ask her to get rid of the thing. :D

also, wouldn't and shouldn't all this have come up during her interview?
It seems like she's been a bit dishonest during the whole thing anyways, like she's trying to make it a "clash of cultures" issue and get attention for it.

Also note that it was the students who compained initially.
All right, that settles it. I thought the 'veil' was something alltogether more reasonable. As I said, I think a Niqab is taking things perhaps a step too far...it would be sad if she convinced herself that she can't do her job without it.

True. In that case you have my permission to ask her to get rid of the thing. :D


It seems like she's been a bit dishonest during the whole thing anyways, like she's trying to make it a "clash of cultures" issue and get attention for it.


All right, that settles it. I thought the 'veil' was something alltogether more reasonable. As I said, I think a Niqab is taking things perhaps a step too far...it would be sad if she convinced herself that she can't do her job without it.

Usually, Veil is a covering of the lower face, Nose and Mouth. sometimes it's gauze like, allowing a See-through effect that can tantilize more than hide. others can be of heavier stuff to prevent the face from being shown.

Veil is also used as a word to Hide. Veiled threat is a hidden threat, and to Unveil is to reveal.