NationStates Jolt Archive


Belgian Socialists Will Do Anything To Stay in Power

Ny Nordland
14-10-2006, 13:54
Including putting far-right muslim candidates on their lists and changing citizenship laws against large public opposition. Note that even immigrant friendly countries like Canada dont give citizenship as quickly as Belgium.


Turning Red: Immigrants Tip the Balance in Belgian Local Elections
From the desk of Paul Belien on Mon, 2006-10-09 10:50

In last March’s local elections in the Netherlands the immigrant vote tipped the balance in favour of the Socialists. The same phenomenon marked yesterday’s local elections in Belgium’s major cities. In Antwerp the Socialists became the largest party. They jumped from 19.5% to 35.3% of the votes, winning 22 of the 55 seats in the municipal council – a gain of ten seats. Seven of the Socialist councillors, almost one third of the total, are Muslim immigrants: Fatma Akbas, Karim Bachar, Ouardia El Taghdouini, Youssef Slassi, Fauzaya Talhaoui, Güler Turan, and Sener Ugurlu. Six of the seven are new in politics.

The self-declared “islamophobic” and Flemish-secessionist Vlaams Belang [Flemish Interest], which until yesterday was Antwerp’s largest party, gained a few extra votes, winning 33.5% of the vote (33.0% last time). Its number of seats remains steady at 20. Antwerp politics is now defined by a polarization between Socialists and the VB. Apart from the VB all parties lost heavily to the Socialists (-7.3% for the Liberals and -6.4% for the Greens). The only party able to avoid being swallowed by the Socialists are the Christian-Democrats. They won 11.2% of the votes, adding an extra 0.1%, and kept their six seats. The Christian-Democrats, too, had put forward immigrant candidates. Two of their elected candidates, one third of the total, are Muslims: Nahima Lanjri and Ergün Top.

The VB also stagnated in other cities with large numbers of immigrants, such as Brussels, Ghent and Mechelen. After the 2000 local elections, in which the VB gained considerably, the Belgian regime extended the vote to immigrants for municipal elections and passed the so-called “Quick Citizenship Bill.” The latter grants hassle-free Belgian citizenship virtually upon demand to every individual who has lived in the country for three (in some cases only two) years, which enfranchises them in the general elections, too (voting is compulsory in Belgium). These measures were introduced with the specific intent of countering the VB.

As Leona Detiège, the then Socialist Antwerp mayor, told Knack Magazine on 13 September 2000: “The Vlaams Blok [as the Vlaams Belang was called at the time] is currently overrepresented because the immigrants are not allowed to vote.” And as Johan Leman, the then director of the Center for Equal Opportunities and Opposition to Racism (CEOOR), a government agency working for the Belgian Prime Minister, announced in the newspaper De Standaard on 15 January 2000: “What will ‘our own people’ still mean fifteen years from now? We will get so many new Belgians that this slogan becomes meaningless. The Vlaams Blok is a thing of the past.” Meanwhile six of Leman’s fifteen years have passed...

Ironically, as I pointed out earlier, in their efforts to counter the indigenous “racists” and “fascists” of the VB, the Socialists and Christian-Democrats do not hesitate to put far-right Muslim candidates on their electoral lists. Some of them, such a Murat Denizli, a member of the Turkish racist and fascist organization Grey Wolves which assassinates Socialist councilors at home, have now become Socialist councilors in Belgium (Mr Denizli was elected for the Parti Socialiste in the Brussels borough of Schaarbeek).

On 10 September I wrote that European politics will swing dramatically to the Left in the coming decades, owing to the growing influence of an immigrant vote eager to retain and expand the welfare benefits. Another trend, however, is also visible.

While yesterday’s elections saw the VB stagnate in the cities the party won massively in the smaller towns and villages. This is likely to continue. While Europe’s cities and major towns turn Muslim and red, the countryside will remain indigenous and will become ever more “islamophobic” and hostile to the cities. The indigenous Europeans – at least if they can afford it – are moving out of the cities (indeed, they are fleeing them). As Filip Dewinter, the VB leader in Antwerp, said in an interview last month: “I am a realist. The number of potential voters for our party is declining year by year [in Antwerp, which has 460,000 inhabitants]. Currently a quarter of the population are immigrants. These people do not vote for us. Every year 4,000 indigenous Antwerpians move out and 5,000 immigrants move in.”

The former city dwellers have moved to suburbia, where towns such as Schoten saw their percentage of VB voters rise yesterday from 24.5 to 34.7%, and to rural districts such as Mol, which saw the VB grow from 13.1 to 21.9%.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1480
Pyotr
14-10-2006, 13:56
Oh noes! Brown people are allowed to vote!?:eek:
The Aeson
14-10-2006, 13:57
Wait, so they're going to hold on to their seat by ticking off the majority of voters?
Babelistan
14-10-2006, 14:00
LOL politicians...
Ny Nordland
14-10-2006, 14:00
Wait, so they're going to hold on to their seat by ticking off the majority of voters?

I'm guessing you are an American? You shoud understand not every country has bi-party system.
The Aeson
14-10-2006, 14:02
I'm guessing you are an American? You shoud understand not every country has bi-party system.

I do understand that. I don't understand how that answers my question...

Of course, it's morning here, and I'm not really a morning person, so that may have something to do with it...
Ny Nordland
14-10-2006, 14:06
I do understand that. I don't understand how that answers my question...

Of course, it's morning here, and I'm not really a morning person, so that may have something to do with it...

Meaning even if 70% of population are against such immigration measure it's highly unlikely that a single party will get 70% of the vote. People will vote other parties for other reasons.
Righteous Munchee-Love
14-10-2006, 14:08
Is this a news flash? And now to sports?
Or should a debate sprout somewhere along the way?
If so, how, if the OP merely posts an article?
Allers
14-10-2006, 14:08
Including putting far-right muslim candidates on their lists and changing citizenship laws against large public opposition. Note that even immigrant friendly countries like Canada dont give citizenship as quickly as Belgium.


http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1480
now that i think about it,i live in the netherland since 1995,en now ano 2006, i still can not vote,not on the national level that is.
Beautiful democracy
I 'm a EU rodent btw
Anyway they are social democrats,so what do you expect?
And hell,this is representatieve democracy,not democracy
The Aeson
14-10-2006, 14:12
Meaning even if 70% of population are against such immigration measure it's highly unlikely that a single party will get 70% of the vote. People will vote other parties for other reasons.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they do get seats based on how many people vote for them?
Ny Nordland
14-10-2006, 14:17
Correct me if I'm wrong, but they do get seats based on how many people vote for them?

Even if they loose votes for such measures, they'll get more votes due to "imported voters".
Ny Nordland
14-10-2006, 14:18
now that i think about it,i live in the netherland since 1995,en now ano 2006, i still can not vote,not on the national level that is.
Beautiful democracy
I 'm a EU rodent btw
Anyway they are social democrats,so what do you expect?
And hell,this is representatieve democracy,not democracy

social democrats and racist turks and islamofascists? Ahh...you are right...
The Alma Mater
14-10-2006, 14:19
Correct me if I'm wrong, but they do get seats based on how many people vote for them?

Yes. But in a multi-party system the result of having viewpoints that are not carefully tailored to appeal to as many voters as possible is not necessarily political suicide.

Example: assume we have 1 000 voters and 10 parties. Party A has viewpoints that 80% of the voters does not wish to vote for. 20% does; meaning 200 votes. Assuming the remaining 80% is distributed evenly amongst the other 9 party A will still be the biggest party.
The Aeson
14-10-2006, 14:19
Even if they loose votes for such measures, they'll get more votes due to "imported voters".

So they're aiming to appeal to immigrants.

Is this bad?
Ny Nordland
14-10-2006, 14:21
Yes. But in a multi-party system the result of having viewpoints that are not carefully tailored to appeal to as many voters as possible is not necessarily political suicide.

Example: assume we have 1 000 voters and 10 parties. Party A has viewpoints that 80% of the voters does not wish to vote for. 20% does; meaning 200 votes. Assuming the remaining 80% is distributed evenly amongst the other 9 party A will still be the biggest party.

Thx. You explained it simply and quite correctly.
Allers
14-10-2006, 14:22
social democrats and racist turks and islamofascists? Ahh...you are right...
yes meaning democracy shoul be a direct one,
Ny Nordland
14-10-2006, 14:22
So they're aiming to appeal to immigrants.

Is this bad?

Yes, if that means passing unbacked-by-the-majority-measures just to counter their opponents. I guess, this could be called changing the rules of the game while playing.
Ny Nordland
14-10-2006, 14:23
yes meaning democracy shoul be a direct one,

I'm not saying including islamofascist is undemocratic, given the number of muslims in Belgium. I just saying it's hypocritical.
The Potato Factory
14-10-2006, 14:24
At this rate, by 2050 Europe will be divided between the muslims and the Nazis.
Allers
14-10-2006, 14:31
At this rate, by 2050 Europe will be divided between the muslims and the Nazis.
now you are optimist,i think it is now,while forgeting the one hating the 2 above+ this hypocrit system,i think the "k"is collapsing,but like you know
.There is nothing more dengerous than a beast against the wall
Haken Rider
14-10-2006, 15:52
Yes, if that means passing unbacked-by-the-majority-measures just to counter their opponents. I guess, this could be called changing the rules of the game while playing.
Oh yes, those thousands of new votes added to an electorate of several millions surely will have a drastic effect on the result.
Isidoor
14-10-2006, 16:14
Oh yes, those thousands of new votes added to an electorate of several millions surely will have a drastic effect on the result.

17.065 immigrants out of a total of 4.663.728 voters, that's 0.366% :eek: OMFG the Islamofascist hordes are already knocking on my door!!!!
Trotskylvania
14-10-2006, 18:59
Including putting far-right muslim candidates on their lists and changing citizenship laws against large public opposition. Note that even immigrant friendly countries like Canada dont give citizenship as quickly as Belgium.


http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1480

Got news for you. Just because they call themselves socialists, doesn't mean they are socialists. They've gone New Labour, just like every other social democratic party in europe.
Babelistan
14-10-2006, 19:22
Got news for you. Just because they call themselves socialists, doesn't mean they are socialists. They've gone New Labour, just like every other social democratic party in europe.

yes, sadly so.
Ny Nordland
15-10-2006, 13:49
17.065 immigrants out of a total of 4.663.728 voters, that's 0.366% :eek: OMFG the Islamofascist hordes are already knocking on my door!!!!

:confused:
It says quarter of the population of big cities are immigrants...
Haken Rider
15-10-2006, 13:58
:confused:
It says quarter of the population of big cities are immigrants...
Not all immigrants may vote and not all that could, registered.
The SR
15-10-2006, 18:46
:confused:
It says quarter of the population of big cities are immigrants...

Brussels for fucks sake. Europes capital city. How many of the them are employed by or indirectly by the EU.

Not a good example at all.
Congo--Kinshasa
15-10-2006, 18:48
Btw, looking at your sig, you seem like a socialist to me, Ny Nordland.
Ny Nordland
15-10-2006, 18:49
Not all immigrants may vote and not all that could, registered.

Yeah but with easy citizenship laws, most immigrants will be able to vote and who'll they vote for? Socialists or Vlaams Belang?
Ny Nordland
15-10-2006, 18:50
Brussels for fucks sake. Europes capital city. How many of the them are employed by or indirectly by the EU.

Not a good example at all.

cities = plural. :rolleyes:

The article doesnt only talk about Brussels.
New Burmesia
15-10-2006, 18:53
Got news for you. Just because they call themselves socialists, doesn't mean they are socialists. They've gone New Labour, just like every other social democratic party in europe.

Labour doesn't even describe themselves as Socialist any more, at least to the public.
Haken Rider
15-10-2006, 19:01
Yeah but with easy citizenship laws, most immigrants will be able to vote and who'll they vote for? Socialists or Vlaams Belang?
Socialists, Liberals, Green party, yes even for the Christian-Democrats.

So many choices, so few votes...
Greyenivol Colony
15-10-2006, 19:08
Yeah but with easy citizenship laws, most immigrants will be able to vote and who'll they vote for? Socialists or Vlaams Belang?

Socialists, and rightly so. If they have the right to vote then they are equal citizens, parties such as Vlaams Belang should not be allowed to capaign for votes on a platform of trying to deny them to fellow citizens.
New Xero Seven
15-10-2006, 19:20
They're all a bunch of Waffles... ;)
Isidoor
15-10-2006, 19:53
there are a lot of other countries where immigrants can vote.
Ireland, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Luxemburg, Finland, Iceland, Estonia, Slovenia, some kantons of Switzerland

in Canada and great Brittain people from the commonwealth can vote.

outside of Europe there are voting rights for immigrants in Peru, Israël, Uruguay, Colombia, Bolivia, Venezuela, Argentinië, Burkina Faso, Chili and Nieuw-Zealand. In addition the last two have very loose migration policy and voting rights on all levels.

If you think about it it is only logical that immigrants can vote.
It's obvious that the place where someone lives is more important for voting rights in local elections than someones nationality.
It's also weird that somebody from Norway or Switzerland can't vote in local elections if he or she lives in Belgium, but someone from inside the EU can.
the last arguement is that voting rights for immigrants also puts pressure on politicians to improve the most neglected neighborhoods, wich is also good for the non-immigrant population.

source: http://users.skynet.be/stemrecht-voor-migranten/repliek.htm


on the numbers of voters:
there were 17.065 immigrants from outside the EU that registered to vote. (http://www.vrtnieuws.net/nieuwsnet_master/versie2/nieuws/details/060816NietEuropeanenStemmen/index.shtml)

4.663.728 is the total amount of registered voters (http://www.vlaanderenkiest.be/overzicht.html#tabevent_tab_participationTotals_GE)

so i think that my numbers are correct.
Ny Nordland
15-10-2006, 21:42
there are a lot of other countries where immigrants can vote.
Ireland, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Luxemburg, Finland, Iceland, Estonia, Slovenia, some kantons of Switzerland

in Canada and great Brittain people from the commonwealth can vote.

outside of Europe there are voting rights for immigrants in Peru, Israël, Uruguay, Colombia, Bolivia, Venezuela, Argentinië, Burkina Faso, Chili and Nieuw-Zealand. In addition the last two have very loose migration policy and voting rights on all levels.

If you think about it it is only logical that immigrants can vote.
It's obvious that the place where someone lives is more important for voting rights in local elections than someones nationality.
It's also weird that somebody from Norway or Switzerland can't vote in local elections if he or she lives in Belgium, but someone from inside the EU can.
the last arguement is that voting rights for immigrants also puts pressure on politicians to improve the most neglected neighborhoods, wich is also good for the non-immigrant population.

source: http://users.skynet.be/stemrecht-voor-migranten/repliek.htm


on the numbers of voters:
there were 17.065 immigrants from outside the EU that registered to vote. (http://www.vrtnieuws.net/nieuwsnet_master/versie2/nieuws/details/060816NietEuropeanenStemmen/index.shtml)

4.663.728 is the total amount of registered voters (http://www.vlaanderenkiest.be/overzicht.html#tabevent_tab_participationTotals_GE)

so i think that my numbers are correct.


No they are NOT! You still dont understand that with easy citizenship laws, immigrants will become citizens and be counted as such. And while immigrants can vote on local elections, they cant on national elections.
New Domici
15-10-2006, 22:03
Including putting far-right muslim candidates on their lists and changing citizenship laws against large public opposition. Note that even immigrant friendly countries like Canada dont give citizenship as quickly as Belgium.


http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1480

Let's just nuke Belgium. That's where this is going, right?
Puppet nr 784512
15-10-2006, 22:40
I 'm a EU rodent btw
A EU rodent?

:D