NationStates Jolt Archive


Civil Liberties and Civil Security

TechSynd
14-10-2006, 05:40
Civil liberties in modern times is something most of us take for granted. We happily quote our various constitutions for addressing civil liberties as being factual and institutional without realizing the cost of institutionalizing the rights we hold dear. We forget how heavily our ancestors paid to achieve the freedoms we have today, while at the same time, dually believing that our rights will remain inviolable for the most part. We believe that although temporary arrangements may lead to despotisms or to a state of security in which certain liberties are curtailed, that despite all of this, our rights, for the most part, will remain intact.

Human history is a history of some six to seven thousand years of bloody and brutal history. We’ve gone from empires to democracies, oligarchies to republics, and monarchies to constitutional monarchies. Human history of one of progress towards libertarianism if we consider both economics and political application of the rights granted to man. While economic capitalism may be the wrong choice and the wrong direction for man, no one can deny it exists and rules the economic life of virtually every single nation on earth. Even those who deny being capitalistic are indeed capitalistic on a statist level.

Throughout this history, the rights endowed to men have grown over the millennia. Once, only basic rights of property and of finances were allowed, but eventually, pressure put on the despots and monarchs ruling at the time by other nobles or by the people caused the rights to grow into political freedoms and religious freedoms. This was not an easy task.

In the civilization known as Athens, political freedoms were first granted to humankind. Granted, slavery still existed then, and granted women were treated like slaves, but the first selective democracy was established, giving power into the hands of some fifty-thousand people, more than just one or fifty depending on dictator or oligarchy.

The freedom to speak has been the hardest to establish because it poses a threat to those in power. Through freedom of speech, the lowest of the low can make complaints freely in most cases against the ruling individuals, criticizing their ways and methods. The first time the freedom to speak was enshrined within a constitution or formal law as being free and mostly non-selective (you can be arrested for using the freedom of speech to say you will kill other people, or cause serious disorder through other ways of speaking) was in the American colonies. Once they achieved their independence, the option to allow freedom of speech became harder to ignore among the people of every oppressed regime in the world. Eventually, the French created their Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen, and the fight for the freedom to speak your mind was victorious.

The freedom to freely worship any religion was one of the hardest rights to establish since it usurped the power of a state religion and proved dangerous as it allowed people to seek their own path in life rather than accept a given order to “thou shall”. Some of the earliest civilizations allowing freedom of religion were ancient Persia and, surprisingly, the Islamic sultanates. Of course, during a time of war these rights always tend to lessen in order to give greater power to those in charge to “protect” us. It’s one of the oldest tricks in the book, to distract those on bottom from the people on top.

The path towards human progress has been a bloody one. The rights we live with have been established on the lives of men and women fighting to give their children a better future. The greatest insult we could ever make to those people is to support the destruction of due process and civil liberties, one by one. While, during a time of war, it may seem easy to give up civil liberty for civil security, the re-establishment of civil liberties given up is no easy task.

The greatest threat to civil liberty is civil security. Demanding we give up civil liberties to gain civil security, it promises to do away with our rights and replace it with state-controlled “rights”. The right to duty. The right to be watched. The right to be guilty before proven innocent. The right to be declared an enemy combatant. The right to not be reviewed independently. These rights are what will replace our civil liberties if the current trend continues in our war society.

A notable Republican Senator recently said, “If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.” I say, if we have total surveillance, we have nothing to hide from the government, and that in itself is a thought so disturbing that it’s hard to believe there’s people promoting total surveillance in this nation.

The real question is, do we want to live in a society where we are completely safe, where all our enemies are caught and captured, and where stray thoughts no longer exist, but where unorthodox people are caught and captured; or do we want to live in a society where we remain free people, where crime still exists, but is rather a good price to pay for freedom?
Rhaomi
14-10-2006, 05:47
It's really very simple: terrorists can kill us and destroy our works, but we can always heal and rebuild. Our freedoms and ideals, however, are not so easily salvaged.
Wanderjar
14-10-2006, 05:49
It's really very simple: terrorists can kill us and destroy our works, but we can always heal and rebuild. Our freedoms and ideals, however, are not so easily salvaged.

Agreed.


You'll never stop terrorism. It is impossible. So we have to live with the fact that there are going to be periodic terror attacks on our nation.

9/11 was a masterfully planned and executed attack. There will be others, but we don't need to give up our freedom because terrorists might strike. If we do that, then the terrorists truly have won.
The Black Forrest
14-10-2006, 05:50
Ben Franklin baby!
Wanderjar
14-10-2006, 05:52
Ben Franklin baby!

Yup. Agree 100%.

"He who would give up a little liberty, for a little security, loses both, and deserves neither."
TechSynd
14-10-2006, 05:53
Agreed.


You'll never stop terrorism. It is impossible. So we have to live with the fact that there are going to be periodic terror attacks on our nation.

9/11 was a masterfully planned and executed attack. There will be others, but we don't need to give up our freedom because terrorists might strike. If we do that, then the terrorists truly have won.

Not just terrorists, mind you, but the Establishment itself. Ever read 1984 by George Orwell? The government used an eternal war to justify the handing over of power to itself.
Congo--Kinshasa
14-10-2006, 05:56
I'm happy to note that no one has voted for "security" yet. :)
Kyronea
14-10-2006, 06:01
It's really very simple: terrorists can kill us and destroy our works, but we can always heal and rebuild. Our freedoms and ideals, however, are not so easily salvaged.

Indeed.

I suspect that, if there are any votes for security, it will most likely be the following individuals:

Deep Kimchi
New Mittani
MeansToAnEnd/RealAmerica

I'm tempted to say Eut, but while Eut is a stubborn old man set in his conservative ways--an essential opposing polar force to my dad--he's not going to be that way.
TechSynd
14-10-2006, 06:08
I'm happy to note that no one has voted for "security" yet. :)

Maybe it's because I worded the poll wrong. By "security" I do mean civil security: police and the whole works.
Soheran
14-10-2006, 06:13
Liberty and security cannot be separated. If the state denies its citizens liberty, they will never be secure.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated
Congo--Kinshasa
14-10-2006, 06:15
Liberty and security cannot be separated. If the state denies its citizens liberty, they will never be secure.

Agreed.
TechSynd
14-10-2006, 06:23
Liberty and security cannot be separated. If the state denies its citizens liberty, they will never be secure.

It can be separated if the topic thread deals with choosing either civil liberty or civil security. ;)

You're of course correct that without liberty, you don't have much security, but if you don't have security, you have no protections from violations of your liberty.
Congressional Dimwits
14-10-2006, 06:55
You're of course correct that without liberty, you don't have much security, but if you don't have security, you have no protections from violations of your liberty.

Ah, but one could say that the purpose of civil liberty is to secure one from one's own government. Therefore, liberty is security.
Congressional Dimwits
14-10-2006, 06:57
"They who give up a little liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-Benjamin Franklin
Gurguvungunit
14-10-2006, 07:11
Well, yes. But making it larger and restating it doesn't necessarily make it true. While I happen to agree, it's always nice to hear reasons.

I think that the poll is a bit slanted-- not intentionally. It's saying that you need to have one or the other, and I don't think that anyone here is going to say 'take my right to vote away and draft me into the army'. The real issue is much more complex than anyone seems to give it credit for, and the trick is balancing security and liberty such that people have reasonably extensive liberties (for example, the right to shoot a successful businessman because his company is polluting the world is not a liberty that I think should be protected) but society still maintains a certain amount of order.

I think that, on the whole, we Americans have gone a tad too far on the 'security' thing. However, it's also possible to go too far along the 'liberty' side of the scale. For example, people would be more free if they were given the right to stage peaceful protests in such locations as airport tarmacs or in/on military vessels and installations. They would be more free if it were legal to spike trees or vandalise the property of companies with which they find issue. But these freedoms are, I believe, not so necessary as to justify the risk to life, financial damage or the civil disruption that they cause.

To blithely say that 'liberty is always better than security' is to overlook why this issue is an issue at all.
Bitchkitten
14-10-2006, 07:15
My grandfather, conservative that he was, was wise in this respect. He told me that any freedom you have, he could give a logical sounding argument for the suspension of that liberty.
Freedom of speech, religion, to bear arms. There will always be suckers that fall for these arguments. Don't give up any of them. They're harder to get back than they are to get in the first place.
TechSynd
14-10-2006, 07:15
I think that the poll is a bit slanted-- not intentionally.

It's intentionally "slanted". I wanted the choice to be "one or the other" to gauge the opinions of people polling who wanted one or the other.

I think that, on the whole, we Americans have gone a tad too far on the 'security' thing. However, it's also possible to go too far along the 'liberty' side of the scale. For example, people would be more free if they were given the right to stage peaceful protests in such locations as airport tarmacs or in/on military vessels and installations. They would be more free if it were legal to spike trees or vandalise the property of companies with which they find issue. But these freedoms are, I believe, not so necessary as to justify the risk to life, financial damage or the civil disruption that they cause.

Wouldn't that just be freedom to be a vigilante?

To blithely say that 'liberty is always better than security' is to overlook why this issue is an issue at all.

That is true. The issue is a hot-topic because people do want to have security, but they also want liberty to go along with that security, or else you don't have any security at all.
JiangGuo
14-10-2006, 08:25
Liberty hands-down.

These national-security-over-civil-liberties advocates won't understand until the Gesta...ahem I mean Homeland Security...kicks in their door at 3 A.M and declare their loved ones to be "enemy combatants". Drags them off in unmarked black vans or ones with huge agency emblems.

No real trial, no information, no mercy.
Congressional Dimwits
14-10-2006, 08:37
I think that, on the whole, we Americans have gone a tad too far on the 'security' thing. However, it's also possible to go too far along the 'liberty' side of the scale. For example, people would be more free if they were given the right to stage peaceful protests in such locations as airport tarmacs or in/on military vessels and installations. They would be more free if it were legal to spike trees or vandalise the property of companies with which they find issue. But these freedoms are, I believe, not so necessary as to justify the risk to life, financial damage or the civil disruption that they cause.

To blithely say that 'liberty is always better than security' is to overlook why this issue is an issue at all.

I think that is a misinterpretation of liberty itself. By its very nature, liberty cannot be anarchy. What I'm trying to say is: my liberty stops where your begins. The minute my liberties begin to infringe upon yours, they are no longer liberties. I think a good explanation (That's a horrible thing to say; I wrote it myslef.) could be found in the thread "Should freedom be limited by morals or is freedom a moral?" (again rude- I started that too) [Note: the thread is at http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=500923 .]


"One of the most basic aspects of civil rights is that they stop wherever someone else's begin. Otherwise you have anarchy. I'm not talking about a society in which people are free to do whatever the hell they like; I'm talking about a society where other people's personal beleifs do not infringe on your own." [That was a reference to an reference to an earlier portion of the thread.] "Take, for example, gay marriage. While it is illeagal, it's a victimless crime. Who gets hurt if someone else gets married? No one. Who gets hurt if I practice my own religion and not the religion of the majority? No one. Who gets hurt if I am dying of a long, slow, and terminal disease, and I decide, to preserve the memory of me to my family, that it's time for me to go? No one. In all these scenarios, if I make a bad choice, the only person who gets hurt is me. However, you cross the line if you, say, blare music out your window all night long. Suddenly, you're impacting someone else. Your neighbors can't sleep. They've lost their inalienable right to sleep. And, of course, you had no right to take their rights away. So you have violated the law. Your freedoms end where someone else's begin."


Do you agree?