NationStates Jolt Archive


Euthanasia

TechSynd
14-10-2006, 05:37
Here's a short essay I wrote on euthanasia (surprise surprise) and the hippocratic oath as it relates to euthanasia.

----------------------

The duty of every doctor is to limit the scope of pain and suffering of each patient. Doing so upholds their Hippocratic oath, an oath taken before becoming a doctor, which promises to do just this. In doing so, they become able to make choices concerning life and death, making choices which will affect potentially thousands of patients throughout their lifetime. While the Hippocratic oath is merely symbolic, meaning, there’s no physical force preventing them from abusing their medical promise, through symbolism, doctors make a promise to never harm their patients, or allow their patients to endure suffering, not necessarily in that order.

The Hippocratic oath recognizes, indirectly, the right to be alive, the right to be free from pain, the right to be free from harm, and the right to personal security and health, or well-being. It also indirectly recognizes the responsibility of patients to uphold, to review, and to listen to suggestions and prescribed treatments of their physicians. This important aspect, the responsibility of the patient, is often overlooked when one considers the ethical nature of the Hippocratic oath.

Going back through history, it was often deemed necessary for doctors to prescribe treatments ranging from leeches to blood-letting to herbal medicines to actual evolution. Leeches and blood-letting was believed to help stop the spread of certain diseases, and to stop the spread of poisons. While blood-letting is primitive, the theory of it helping stop the spread of poison is an actual treatment, albeit very primitive and costly in terms of human material. Through herbal medicines, many tribes throughout the world have used what we would consider to be primitive medicine to treat advanced diseases using basic herbs and plant material. These drugs have become more and more common as treatment methods of contemporary medicine often fail to treat several particular diseases. While the bulk of medical theory overall does treat diseases in the most convenient and advanced way, sometimes some diseases require a return to much more primitive methods, primitive only by comparison to modern medical practices.

Barely over a hundred years ago it was normal, acceptable behavior to not thoroughly wash one’s hands before surgery. Now, latex, masks, and eye-wear isolate the surgeon from their patient. In barely one hundred years we have gone from a much-more germ-ridden society to a society where it is finally acceptable to wash and bathe. Barely five-hundred years ago it was considered normal to only wash oneself twice a year, lest one should develop diseases. Barely over fifty years ago the first organ transplants were conducted. And now, barely a year ago, I volunteered to be an organ donor. Without modern medicine, I would not have been able to make that choice, knowing that someday when I die, I’ll give life to someone else.

Modern medicine has evolved from hand-washing to organ transplant to disease eradication. What was once normal is now barbaric, and what was strange and usual is now the norm. In this respect, we can judge the past of medical history and say this or that was primitive, and say that this or that was barbaric, but in the end, we must realize hindsight is twenty-twenty.

Today, modern medicine cannot reverse the process of living human “vegetables”. A person becomes imprisoned in a vegetative state often after suffering a serious head trauma, a serious stroke, or any other ailment primarily affecting the brain. They become mostly non-responsive to external stimuli, and most of them will never recover from their state.

The Hippocratic oath compels a doctor to do no harm. In this regard, how is it not harmful to keep a human being who will never be a human being again to remain imprisoned within their body, uncommunicative and unresponsive? Often, the argument in favor of keeping them vegetables is religious, and often the argument is that they have the right to live as vegetables. What sort of life is it to live like that? Like a human vegetable? The way to easily refute the religious argument is, if God wanted them to live, they wouldn’t need artificial machines to keep them alive. By putting them on artificial life-support, we violate the will of their God, thus contradicting their own religious argument.

Human vegetables are not the only ones who have the right to die with dignity as a human being should. People in great pain, pain which is caused by a disease or impairment that is irreparable and incurable, also should have the right to die. I myself wish to rather be taken off life-support than to live like a vegetable, or to experience great pain and suffering for the rest of my life. While chance of recovery is slim at best in most cases, pain is something that does not go away easily.

By taking the Hippocratic oath, a doctor promises to do no harm. Therefore, the oath compels the doctor to allow someone to die with dignity rather than live in pain. By keeping them alive against their wishes, the doctor does harm. But what if the patient wishes to live in pain? Or made it clear before becoming uncommunicative that they did not wish to have their lives naturally ended if they became a human vegetable? If they become a human vegetable, they no longer have an existence. Their conscious center is effectively dead. Their personality is also dead. Their identity is dead. They are dead. Their body remains, however. Their lives should be ended with dignity. However, patients who remain conscious, self-aware, and are suffering some sort of irreparable pain, and who wish to live, should be kept alive. The reason being, that which makes them who they are, their memories, personality, identity, and consciousness remains alive. In a human vegetable, the person that once was is forever lost. Even if they recover, it’s not the same person. Very few ever recover. By ending the life of someone who has suffered complete brain-death is not cruel nor is it a violation of the doctor’s oath to do no harm, but is, instead, an act of humanitarian mercy.

However, when does the line end, where does it become apparent that euthanasia and other practices are unethical?

Mental retardation is irreparable damage to the brain caused by flaws and genetic anomalies during conception of the individual. Mental retardation qualifying as lack of self-awareness should justify euthanasia as an act of mercy. An ability for basic conscious self-awareness means the individual is capable of functioning while being able to think and to know they exist. If they are incapable of those two things, they don’t exactly qualify as being “alive” in the sense of conscious awareness of that which is themselves and that which is around them.

Physical retardation does not qualify for potential lack of conscious self-awareness. Through physical therapy, greater mobility can be achieved, and through advanced surgeries available only recently through revolutionary medical breakthroughs, even greater mobility can be achieved.

A hard and difficult question asked by many is whether or not it is suitable for the human race to allow the spread and development of detrimental genes to pollute the gene pool. The answer is yes. It is the right of any citizen of any nation to mate with whomever they wish to, assuming consent is given. Genetic anomalies are often recessive, meaning the damage done to future generations is often rare. Additionally, in the future, detrimental genetic abnormalities may become a thing of the past with gene therapy treatments, and through observation of the progress of the human child during the fetal stages of development during pregnancy.

However, another question arises: is it appropriate to allow oneself to spread a known gene that may or may not cause severe or mild retardation, be it mental or physical, onto one’s offspring? Someone often overlooked is that by mating oneself to any other particular human being increases the risk of spreading anomalous genes into the gene pool anyways, since the chance of a gene mutating into a harmful gene does exist. In this regard, I must say that it is still the right of any citizen to mate with whomever they choose, regardless of their genetic background.

However, it is the right of any citizen to submit themselves to voluntary sterilization if they wish to limit the spread of a genetic anomaly known to cause harm if active. It should not be encouraged, but the option should remain freely available and freely voluntary to those who wish to do so.

It is the right of all citizens to live their lives freely and without interference. It is the right of all citizens to live with dignity, and to die with dignity. To let someone die may be the hardest thing a doctor can do, but it’s the ethical choice. To keep a dead person on life-support may be one of the cruelest things anyone can do, and is certainly the most unethical choice of the lot. Without ethics, human rights are meaningless, and without human rights, ethics are meaningless. The two go hand-in-hand, and must therefore be defined and valued.

The value of a human life is to be held as the greatest possible value. To keep a human life in pain, or imprisoned within a dead body, is to violate moral and ethical concerns. To allow a human life to be ended through consideration of mercy or through the wish of the individual is to uphold the right of life to end when the burden of this world has become too great to bear.

Sometimes, death is truly the dignified release.
Soheran
14-10-2006, 05:43
The way to easily refute the religious argument is, if God wanted them to live, they wouldn’t need artificial machines to keep them alive. By putting them on artificial life-support, we violate the will of their God, thus contradicting their own religious argument.

What if God wills that we intervene?
TechSynd
14-10-2006, 05:47
What if God wills that we intervene?

What leads you to believe that it's God's will? And would you force your God's will on people who don't share your faith?

When did God tell you to put people on life-support, I'm curious?
Similization
14-10-2006, 05:48
What if God wills that we intervene?Then perhaps it should leave a signed note. God knows there's plenty of schizophrenics & people with too vivid imaginations. It's not reasonable of it to expect us to be able to tell the difference between those & someone who truely has heard the "voice" of god.
TechSynd
14-10-2006, 05:50
Then perhaps it should leave a signed note. God knows there's plenty of schizophrenics & people with too vivid imaginations. It's not reasonable of it to expect us to be able to tell the difference between those & someone who truely has heard the "voice" of god.

And, besides, if it was God's will to put people on life-support, you think it would be in the Bible.
Wanderjar
14-10-2006, 05:50
Here's a short essay I wrote on euthanasia (surprise surprise) and the hippocratic oath as it relates to euthanasia.

----------------------

The duty of every doctor is to limit the scope of pain and suffering of each patient. Doing so upholds their Hippocratic oath, an oath taken before becoming a doctor, which promises to do just this. In doing so, they become able to make choices concerning life and death, making choices which will affect potentially thousands of patients throughout their lifetime. While the Hippocratic oath is merely symbolic, meaning, there’s no physical force preventing them from abusing their medical promise, through symbolism, doctors make a promise to never harm their patients, or allow their patients to endure suffering, not necessarily in that order.

The Hippocratic oath recognizes, indirectly, the right to be alive, the right to be free from pain, the right to be free from harm, and the right to personal security and health, or well-being. It also indirectly recognizes the responsibility of patients to uphold, to review, and to listen to suggestions and prescribed treatments of their physicians. This important aspect, the responsibility of the patient, is often overlooked when one considers the ethical nature of the Hippocratic oath.

Going back through history, it was often deemed necessary for doctors to prescribe treatments ranging from leeches to blood-letting to herbal medicines to actual evolution. Leeches and blood-letting was believed to help stop the spread of certain diseases, and to stop the spread of poisons. While blood-letting is primitive, the theory of it helping stop the spread of poison is an actual treatment, albeit very primitive and costly in terms of human material. Through herbal medicines, many tribes throughout the world have used what we would consider to be primitive medicine to treat advanced diseases using basic herbs and plant material. These drugs have become more and more common as treatment methods of contemporary medicine often fail to treat several particular diseases. While the bulk of medical theory overall does treat diseases in the most convenient and advanced way, sometimes some diseases require a return to much more primitive methods, primitive only by comparison to modern medical practices.

Barely over a hundred years ago it was normal, acceptable behavior to not thoroughly wash one’s hands before surgery. Now, latex, masks, and eye-wear isolate the surgeon from their patient. In barely one hundred years we have gone from a much-more germ-ridden society to a society where it is finally acceptable to wash and bathe. Barely five-hundred years ago it was considered normal to only wash oneself twice a year, lest one should develop diseases. Barely over fifty years ago the first organ transplants were conducted. And now, barely a year ago, I volunteered to be an organ donor. Without modern medicine, I would not have been able to make that choice, knowing that someday when I die, I’ll give life to someone else.

Modern medicine has evolved from hand-washing to organ transplant to disease eradication. What was once normal is now barbaric, and what was strange and usual is now the norm. In this respect, we can judge the past of medical history and say this or that was primitive, and say that this or that was barbaric, but in the end, we must realize hindsight is twenty-twenty.

Today, modern medicine cannot reverse the process of living human “vegetables”. A person becomes imprisoned in a vegetative state often after suffering a serious head trauma, a serious stroke, or any other ailment primarily affecting the brain. They become mostly non-responsive to external stimuli, and most of them will never recover from their state.

The Hippocratic oath compels a doctor to do no harm. In this regard, how is it not harmful to keep a human being who will never be a human being again to remain imprisoned within their body, uncommunicative and unresponsive? Often, the argument in favor of keeping them vegetables is religious, and often the argument is that they have the right to live as vegetables. What sort of life is it to live like that? Like a human vegetable? The way to easily refute the religious argument is, if God wanted them to live, they wouldn’t need artificial machines to keep them alive. By putting them on artificial life-support, we violate the will of their God, thus contradicting their own religious argument.

Human vegetables are not the only ones who have the right to die with dignity as a human being should. People in great pain, pain which is caused by a disease or impairment that is irreparable and incurable, also should have the right to die. I myself wish to rather be taken off life-support than to live like a vegetable, or to experience great pain and suffering for the rest of my life. While chance of recovery is slim at best in most cases, pain is something that does not go away easily.

By taking the Hippocratic oath, a doctor promises to do no harm. Therefore, the oath compels the doctor to allow someone to die with dignity rather than live in pain. By keeping them alive against their wishes, the doctor does harm. But what if the patient wishes to live in pain? Or made it clear before becoming uncommunicative that they did not wish to have their lives naturally ended if they became a human vegetable? If they become a human vegetable, they no longer have an existence. Their conscious center is effectively dead. Their personality is also dead. Their identity is dead. They are dead. Their body remains, however. Their lives should be ended with dignity. However, patients who remain conscious, self-aware, and are suffering some sort of irreparable pain, and who wish to live, should be kept alive. The reason being, that which makes them who they are, their memories, personality, identity, and consciousness remains alive. In a human vegetable, the person that once was is forever lost. Even if they recover, it’s not the same person. Very few ever recover. By ending the life of someone who has suffered complete brain-death is not cruel nor is it a violation of the doctor’s oath to do no harm, but is, instead, an act of humanitarian mercy.

However, when does the line end, where does it become apparent that euthanasia and other practices are unethical?

Mental retardation is irreparable damage to the brain caused by flaws and genetic anomalies during conception of the individual. Mental retardation qualifying as lack of self-awareness should justify euthanasia as an act of mercy. An ability for basic conscious self-awareness means the individual is capable of functioning while being able to think and to know they exist. If they are incapable of those two things, they don’t exactly qualify as being “alive” in the sense of conscious awareness of that which is themselves and that which is around them.

Physical retardation does not qualify for potential lack of conscious self-awareness. Through physical therapy, greater mobility can be achieved, and through advanced surgeries available only recently through revolutionary medical breakthroughs, even greater mobility can be achieved.

A hard and difficult question asked by many is whether or not it is suitable for the human race to allow the spread and development of detrimental genes to pollute the gene pool. The answer is yes. It is the right of any citizen of any nation to mate with whomever they wish to, assuming consent is given. Genetic anomalies are often recessive, meaning the damage done to future generations is often rare. Additionally, in the future, detrimental genetic abnormalities may become a thing of the past with gene therapy treatments, and through observation of the progress of the human child during the fetal stages of development during pregnancy.

However, another question arises: is it appropriate to allow oneself to spread a known gene that may or may not cause severe or mild retardation, be it mental or physical, onto one’s offspring? Someone often overlooked is that by mating oneself to any other particular human being increases the risk of spreading anomalous genes into the gene pool anyways, since the chance of a gene mutating into a harmful gene does exist. In this regard, I must say that it is still the right of any citizen to mate with whomever they choose, regardless of their genetic background.

However, it is the right of any citizen to submit themselves to voluntary sterilization if they wish to limit the spread of a genetic anomaly known to cause harm if active. It should not be encouraged, but the option should remain freely available and freely voluntary to those who wish to do so.

It is the right of all citizens to live their lives freely and without interference. It is the right of all citizens to live with dignity, and to die with dignity. To let someone die may be the hardest thing a doctor can do, but it’s the ethical choice. To keep a dead person on life-support may be one of the cruelest things anyone can do, and is certainly the most unethical choice of the lot. Without ethics, human rights are meaningless, and without human rights, ethics are meaningless. The two go hand-in-hand, and must therefore be defined and valued.

The value of a human life is to be held as the greatest possible value. To keep a human life in pain, or imprisoned within a dead body, is to violate moral and ethical concerns. To allow a human life to be ended through consideration of mercy or through the wish of the individual is to uphold the right of life to end when the burden of this world has become too great to bear.

Sometimes, death is truly the dignified release.

I agree. There should be a Dying with Dignity law passed, or something to that effect.
Soheran
14-10-2006, 05:51
What leads you to believe that it's God's will? And would you force your God's will on people who don't share your faith?

When did God tell you to put people on life-support, I'm curious?

I'm an atheist. I just think your argument there is absurd.

There is no reason to suspect that God does not wish for humans to act in certain ways, even if it means changing apparently "natural" happenings - that is the doctrine of pretty much every theistic religion on earth, after all.
Similization
14-10-2006, 05:58
And, besides, if it was God's will to put people on life-support, you think it would be in the Bible.Oh, I didn't know we were talking about a particular god. But if that bastard didn't want mercy killing, it, shouldn't have created terminal misery & free will.

If I'm ever in need of a mercy killing, I'd much perfer people oblige & let me worry about the consequences. To the believers I have free will, so preventing me from damning myself in their eyes, isn't their problem.
TechSynd
14-10-2006, 06:00
I'm an atheist. I just think your argument there is absurd.

Well, you can't blame me for not knowing you're an atheist. You came across as a theist.

There is no reason to suspect that God does not wish for humans to act in certain ways, even if it means changing apparently "natural" happenings - that is the doctrine of pretty much every theistic religion on earth, after all.

True, there's no reason to believe that God doesn't want people to do certain things, but when things happen that aren't prescribed by the Bible at all, you can't know for sure if your ideology wants you to do a prescribed action or not.

Which is why not all Christians believe in keeping people on life-support, and why some do. Their Bible is pretty much obsolete in the modern world and each Christian ideology or denomination has to draw its own conclusions about modern Christian applications.
Seryak
14-10-2006, 06:01
You can leave God out of this one buddy, there is no defense needed to ban euthanasia except for the original text of the Hippocratic Oath itself, which you should brush up on if you are in fact trying to use it to ban euthanasia. And I quote "I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death."

It even goes further to say: "Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion," but I suppose we can leave abortion for another day....
Congo--Kinshasa
14-10-2006, 06:02
I support euthanasia, if the person is truly suffering and it's what they want. If they're unable to communicate their desire (i.e., in a vegetative state), I think euthanasia should only be used if the family is positive that it's what the person would have wanted.

Just my two cents.
Seryak
14-10-2006, 06:03
This does not state a position on euthanasia, it just aims to say that you should not use the Hippocratic oath in support for your argument.
TechSynd
14-10-2006, 06:03
Oh, I didn't know we were talking about a particular god. But if that bastard didn't want mercy killing, it, shouldn't have created terminal misery & free will.

Heh, I didn't mean to imply I'm only talking about the Christian god. It's just, I live in America, and the Judeo-Christian tradition is strongest, so if I were to have mentioned the Quran instead, it wouldn't have a good enough impact as if I were to use the Bible as an example. ^^

And no, it shouldn't have. The pervasiveness of suffering in life has led me to believe (among other reasons) in the absence of a god.

If I'm ever in need of a mercy killing, I'd much perfer people oblige & let me worry about the consequences. To the believers I have free will, so preventing me from damning myself in their eyes, isn't their problem.

I'd rather be allowed to die than live on suffering.
Congo--Kinshasa
14-10-2006, 06:04
I'd rather be allowed to die than live on suffering.

I agree.
TechSynd
14-10-2006, 06:06
You can leave God out of this one buddy, there is no defense needed to ban euthanasia except for the original text of the Hippocratic Oath itself, which you should brush up on if you are in fact trying to use it to ban euthanasia. And I quote "I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

I don't belive in god and I'm not bringing god into anything.

I'm supporting euthanasia, not banning it. Please re-read my original post before you make such inaccurate accusations.

To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death."

Which is why I think they should be allowed to die naturally.
Posi
14-10-2006, 06:06
Youth in Asia should be stopped!

Death to the Adolescence!
Soheran
14-10-2006, 06:10
True, there's no reason to believe that God doesn't want people to do certain things, but when things happen that aren't prescribed by the Bible at all, you can't know for sure if your ideology wants you to do a prescribed action or not.

You do realize that both Christianity and Judaism have a great deal of doctrine that is not found directly in the Bible?

Religious "ideology" encompasses a whole lot more than the literal meaning of the Bible.

Which is why not all Christians believe in keeping people on life-support, and why some do.

The question is not that simple, and never has been.

The Catholic Church, for instance, holds that we have a moral obligation to keep people alive - but only as long as we are not using extraordinary means.

Others hold that we can withhold support if we see fit, but we cannot actually kill the person - even if he or she is in severe pain.
TechSynd
14-10-2006, 06:19
You do realize that both Christianity and Judaism have a great deal of doctrine that is not found directly in the Bible?

Religious "ideology" encompasses a whole lot more than the literal meaning of the Bible.

I apologize for my error in words. I meant to say that there's no way to know what your god wants you to do. I do know, however, that ideologies often differ from their source in more than one way.

The question is not that simple, and never has been.

The Catholic Church, for instance, holds that we have a moral obligation to keep people alive - but only as long as we are not using extraordinary means.

And my point is that that particular doctine is found no where in the "word of God".

Do you happen to know if the Catholic Church supports life-support? If you say they don't use "extraordinary" means, it sounds like they wouldn't.
Gladstad
14-10-2006, 06:24
According to the Catholic Church, people should be free to choose whether to use life support.
Seryak
14-10-2006, 06:24
Yes, I am agreeing with you that God can be left out of this argument, but that does still not address what the Hippocratic oath actually says. Letting someone "die naturally" sounds as if we are to never intervene with modern medical procedures. Where does one draw the line for "pulling the plug"? If the person only has a 10% chance of living? 5%? 1%?
Kilthemods
14-10-2006, 06:25
I had two grandparents euthanised, one requested it and the other the MD did it on his own. This was in the Netherlands but it was done decades before the Netherlands present euthanasia laws were in effect, it was done and was widespread it just wasn't talked about. I also had two uncles who were given a sufficient dose of medicine in their last months that they could do the job on their own, they did. I will follow the same path should it become needed, problem is I don't live in the Netherlands so I'll have to go back there to do it. Where I live now it is done but you need to be lucky enough to have a doctor that agrees to it. I have a friend who is MD I've never asked him if he would do it for me but if the time comes he might.

It seems the compasionate thing to do for those who want it, we do it for dogs and call it humane, but doing it for humans is not gods will? God is a sick bastard for wanting people to suffer needlessly, why should I and others who do not believe in this evil God who likes to watch people die in agony.
Soheran
14-10-2006, 06:27
I apologize for my error in words. I meant to say that there's no way to know what your god wants you to do.

If you hold by the religion, there is.

And my point is that that particular doctine is found no where in the "word of God".

But maybe it is found in the rational person's participation in the eternal law, thus amounting to the same thing.

Do you happen to know if the Catholic Church supports life-support? If you say they don't use "extraordinary" means, it sounds like they wouldn't.

"Life support" is a vague term.

My recollection is that they tend to make a distinction between "natural" sorts of life support - feeding tubes, for instance - that just imitate natural functions, and "artificial" ones that do not.
Seryak
14-10-2006, 06:32
Soheran, just out of curiosity, are you actually Catholic, or are you just knowledgeable of the subject and are playing Devil's Advocate.
TechSynd
14-10-2006, 06:33
Yes, I am agreeing with you that God can be left out of this argument, but that does still not address what the Hippocratic oath actually says. Letting someone "die naturally" sounds as if we are to never intervene with modern medical procedures. Where does one draw the line for "pulling the plug"? If the person only has a 10% chance of living? 5%? 1%?

Alright, what I mean by "die naturally" is I'd personally rather die naturally than get a lethal shot of chemicals. That's the way I want to die.

If I were a doctor, I'd give a lethal injection if the patient was in pain and there was nothing you could do for him or her, or if the patient wanted to be put to sleep prior in a written or verbal statement verified by witnesses.
TechSynd
14-10-2006, 06:37
If you hold by the religion, there is.

It would be argued that you can't know what your god thinks. You can easily quote scripture for what to do, but in the modern world, where issues like life support weren't written about thousands of years ago, but you can't know for sure exactly what your god wants you to do, no matter what new doctrines you come up with. Of course to the average fundamentalist, they still think they know what their god thinks.

But maybe it is found in the rational person's participation in the eternal law, thus amounting to the same thing.

Well, like I said, fundamentalism creates new doctrines as it sees fit, and thinks it's what god supports.

"Life support" is a vague term.

I could use the verbose "feeding tube apparatus coupled with secondary systems machine" if you'd like. ;)
Kilthemods
14-10-2006, 06:38
Yes, I am agreeing with you that God can be left out of this argument, but that does still not address what the Hippocratic oath actually says. Letting someone "die naturally" sounds as if we are to never intervene with modern medical procedures. Where does one draw the line for "pulling the plug"? If the person only has a 10% chance of living? 5%? 1%?just maybe the Hippocratic oath is outdated? written at a time when religion played a greater role in society it no doubt had influence in the lives of those who wrote it.

My father refused all extra means of prolonging his life and forebade any attempts to revive him should he die. It was not a pleasent death, slowly drowning in his own body fluids, what would it have hurt for him to be eased out of his agony? What kind of sick mind thinks it's right for people to suffer needlessly.
Soheran
14-10-2006, 06:39
Soheran, just out of curiosity, are you actually Catholic,

Absolutely not. I think natural law is a load of nonsense, if perhaps the most coherent theory of objective morality yet constructed.

I am an atheist heretic and an ardent supporter of euthanasia rights, though I do have some reservations about the non-voluntary variety (regardless of whether "extraordinary means" are involved).

or are you just knowledgeable of the subject

I know a bit about it. Calling me "knowledgeable" would probably be a stretch.

and are playing Devil's Advocate.

You could call it that.
Seryak
14-10-2006, 06:39
That's a fine position, but the Hippocratic oath cannot be adequately used to defend that position. You simply cannot take one or two lines out of the Hippocratic oath, mainly "The duty of every doctor is to limit the scope of pain and suffering of each patient," and assume that is entirity of the oath. Simply not the case. The oath goes much further to indicate that euthanasia is intolerable in the medical profession. There are historically practical reasons for this, which I can get into if need be.
TechSynd
14-10-2006, 06:43
That's a fine position, but the Hippocratic oath cannot be adequately used to defend that position. You simply cannot take one or two lines out of the Hippocratic oath, mainly "The duty of every doctor is to limit the scope of pain and suffering of each patient," and assume that is entirity of the oath. Simply not the case. The oath goes much further to indicate that euthanasia is intolerable in the medical profession. There are historically practical reasons for this, which I can get into if need be.

The fact that part of the Hippocratic Oath seems to justify euthanasia would thus moot any point made trying to justify banning euthanasia.
Seryak
14-10-2006, 06:47
According to that logic, the opposite would be equally true. If at any point the Hippocratic oath says that euthanasia is unjustifiable, then it makes your argument moot.
Soheran
14-10-2006, 06:48
It would be argued that you can't know what your god thinks. You can easily quote scripture for what to do, but in the modern world, where issues like life support weren't written about thousands of years ago, but you can't know for sure exactly what your god wants you to do, no matter what new doctrines you come up with. Of course to the average fundamentalist, they still think they know what their god thinks.

We can extrapolate from past decisions, and come to reasonable answers. Add a bit of divine inspiration to the mix, and you have a workable system.

Well, like I said, fundamentalism creates new doctrines as it sees fit, and thinks it's what god supports.

Have you ever considered that perhaps people actually think about these problems, and come to reasonable answers consistent with their beliefs?

Not every doctrine is simply adopted for its convenience.
TechSynd
14-10-2006, 06:57
According to that logic, the opposite would be equally true. If at any point the Hippocratic oath says that euthanasia is unjustifiable, then it makes your argument moot.

It depends on interpretation. I don't see it unjustifying euthanasia as do you, which is why we have differing opinions. ;)
TechSynd
14-10-2006, 06:59
We can extrapolate from past decisions, and come to reasonable answers. Add a bit of divine inspiration to the mix, and you have a workable system.

Agh I've really dug myself into this one.

I've not meant to say that theologies aren't possible or realistic. I'm debating the logic and rationality (evidence I have done so in that manner is evidenced through my opinions on how theology interprets "God") of theology.

Sometimes my choice of words can be vague or misleading, but unintentionally so.

Have you ever considered that perhaps people actually think about these problems, and come to reasonable answers consistent with their beliefs?

Not every doctrine is simply adopted for its convenience.

I've considered.

Isn't wanting to avoid hell a convenient reason to adopt a doctrine?
Bitchkitten
14-10-2006, 07:08
The last couple of years my mother has been seriously ill. She has congestive heart failure, is in end stage renal failure and has tumors on her adrenal and pituitary glands. She can't have a transplant because they're afraid general anethesia would kill her.

We have talked about her wishes in great detail. Assisted suicide would be a possible if she is in great pain and had little chance of recovery. She already has a DNR and I have power of attorney. I would much rather see her dead than lingering in pain with little chance of recovery. Obviously she agrees.

My own choice would be the same.