NationStates Jolt Archive

OK. I was scrolling through Yahoo a few minutes ago and i came across this. Thought it was the funniest damned thing that i could ever read. Three nations (US, Japan, China) took air samples after the supposed nuclear explosion and they made their findings (partially) public.


By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer
24 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Results from an initial air sampling after North Korea's announced nuclear test showed no evidence of radioactive particles that would be expected from a successful nuclear detonation, a U.S. government intelligence official said Friday.

The test results do not necessarily mean the North Korean blast was not a nuclear explosion, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to disclose the sampling results.

Nonetheless, the readings reinforce uncertainty about the size and success of Monday's underground explosion, which North Korea has trumpeted as a nuclear test. It also keeps alive lingering questions about whether it was in fact a nuclear blast. Data from seismic sensors has already indicated the explosion was smaller than expected, but that is not a conclusive finding on the question of whether the explosion was nuclear.

The Chinese and Japanese governments have done their own air sampling and found no trace of radioactive material, officials from both countries said Friday. A Japanese government official said his country sampled air over the Sea of Japan, as well as rainfall and ground-level air on Japanese territory and found nothing.

The U.S. intelligence official described the U.S. results as the State Department announced that Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice will travel to China, South Korea and Japan next week to discuss steps to be taken to pressure North Korea to drop its nuclear efforts and to assess the security situation in the region.

Rice's trip is the next step in the U.S. diplomatic offensive at the United Nations and with Pyongyang's neighbors.

Members of the U.N. Security Council agreed Friday on the wording of a resolution that would clamp sanctions on the communist country. The draft, which U.S. officials said they hoped would be approved on Saturday, would authorize non-military sanctions against the North, and says that any further action the council might want to take would require another U.N. resolution.

It also eliminates a blanket arms embargo from a tougher, previous draft, instead targeting specific equipment for sanctions including missiles, tanks, warships and combat aircraft.

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said that on Rice's trip, "she's going to be talking about the passage of that resolution certainly, but really what comes after. She's going to be talking about how to go about actually implementing that resolution."

At the White House, press secretary Tony Snow said the Bush administration's analysis of North Korea's claim of a nuclear test was continuing and is covering a wide range of data in an attempt to reach a conclusion about whether it is valid.

"We still do not have a definitive statement on it," he said. "They still think the analysis that they're doing will take another day or two."

McCormack said "the jury is still out" on the Korean test, adding, "You don't know what size device they were hoping to explode."

The air sample was taken Tuesday by a specialized aircraft, the WC-135, flying from Kadena air base in Okinawa, Japan. It apparently took the sample over the Sea of Japan, between the Korean mainland and Japan.

In Beijing, a government official said Friday that Chinese monitoring also has found no evidence of airborne radiation from the test-explosion. The official with the State Environmental Protection Administration said China has been monitoring air samples since Monday.

"We have conducted air monitoring and found no radiation in the air over Chinese territory so far," said the official, who requested anonymity because he was not authorized to publicly release the information. The official declined to explain how the Chinese monitoring was conducted.

The U.S. intelligence official said an initial result from testing of the U.S. air sample became available late this week. He said a final result would be available within days but the initial finding is considered conclusive.

It was not immediately clear whether the WC-135 took additional samples after the Tuesday effort.

The U.S., which has sought tough steps in the United Nations that could leave the door open to a blockade or other military action, has had to give ground to gain support from China and Russia. Those countries, along with South Korea, have been reluctant to abandon diplomatic efforts to resolve the standoff.

On Wednesday, Bush indicated that he saw little distinction between an actual nuclear test by North Korea and its announcement of one.

"The United States is working to confirm North Korea's claim, but this claim itself constitutes a threat to international peace and stability," Bush said.

Yeah, they said they thought it wasn't a nuclear detonation only a few hours after it happened. The explosion only registered with the force of what you'd expect from standard explosives. They were saying that it looked like the detonators intended to set off the device had exploded, but not the device itself. This is just confirmation of that.

Well, it's good to know that North Korea just blew millions of dollars or more and pretty much fucked up its trade relations for the next few years just to create the illusion that they detonated a nuke.

I guess that's more than enough proof that KJI is crazy...

I remember hearing it mentioned that the N Koreands were saying there was no leak of radiation from their nuke. I guess this is why.

Nukes or no nukes something tells me o'l Rowly Kim wants a fight witht he US. North Korea has one of the largest armies in the world, and if Bush made a move it would be a pretty big war, and I think thats what Kim wants, I think he wants the US to start a war with North Korea. I have no idea why, the man is clearly insane, but that's how it strikes me.

well,they are already black on the map,so why not
The us,french,english,indian,russian,chinese ,india and other neither use the test before bringing it to the public,i guess everybody is happy.

Well, it's good to know that North Korea just blew millions of dollars or more and pretty much fucked up its trade relations for the next few years just to create the illusion that they detonated a nuke.

I guess that's more than enough proof that KJI is crazy...
Well, if there's even the possibility, people will worry for awhile. And just because he doesn't have one now doesn't mean he can't make one soon based on the data from this test. It was only a test, after all.
Nukes or no nukes something tells me o'l Rowly Kim wants a fight witht he US. North Korea has one of the largest armies in the world, and if Bush made a move it would be a pretty big war, and I think thats what Kim wants, I think he wants the US to start a war with North Korea. I have no idea why, the man is clearly insane, but that's how it strikes me.

A big army, yes. A good one, not so much. They're vastly intiquated. That isn't to say they couldn't put up a stalwart defense, but just that they might not be such effective enemies as they probably should be.

Just because they haven't detected the radiation does not mean it wasn't a nuke.

Yeah, they said they thought it wasn't a nuclear detonation only a few hours after it happened. The explosion only registered with the force of what you'd expect from standard explosives. They were saying that it looked like the detonators intended to set off the device had exploded, but not the device itself. This is just confirmation of that.

Except that would still spread radioactive material in the air. This appears to have been nothing more than a conventional weapon.

Maybe its just not registering cos the nuke was the same size as the Great Leader

Just because they haven't detected the radiation does not mean it wasn't a nuke.
A failed nuke is still a nuke, after all.:p
Except that would still spread radioactive material in the air. This appears to have been nothing more than a conventional weapon.

Not necessarily. See above.

Nuke or no nuke, I still can't dismiss the possabilty of them having some kind of half-assed nuke program. They claim more tests are on the way. So if the second one also produces no radiation then Mr. Il will get his pound of flesh............ But only from people that laugh themselves to death. :p

It wasn't an atomic bomb.

It was an atomic bong.

http://uncyclopedia.org/images/thumb/4/44/A-bong.jpg/180px-A-bong.jpg

:D

It wasn't an atomic bomb.

It was an atomic bong.

http://uncyclopedia.org/images/thumb/4/44/A-bong.jpg/180px-A-bong.jpg

:D

Mixing those up can have unpleasant consequences.

This is only because our great leader and workers were so good at sealing the blast area, nothing escaped. In reality we detonated the largest nucluear bomb ever!

Nuke or no nuke, I still can't dismiss the possabilty of them having some kind of half-assed nuke program. They claim more tests are on the way. So if the second one also produces no radiation then Mr. Il will get his pound of flesh............ But only from people that laugh themselves to death. :p
Yeah, that'd be dreadfully humiliating for North Korea. The whole government might as well commit suicide to save as much face as possible if that happens. lol
It wasn't an atomic bomb.

It was an atomic bong.

http://uncyclopedia.org/images/thumb/4/44/A-bong.jpg/180px-A-bong.jpg

:D

No, that's still under construction. Apparently, the Koreans are still having difficulty following the instructions that came on the box.:D

Maybe its just not registering cos the nuke was the same size as the Great Leader
nobody noticed it,but i did



lol

Except that would still spread radioactive material in the air. This appears to have been nothing more than a conventional weapon.
*Shrug*

I'm just repeating what I heard a few days ago.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6040494.stm

This is only because our great leader and workers were so good at sealing the blast area, nothing escaped. In reality we detonated the largest nucluear bomb ever!

No. You see, it takes a regular nuclear explosion to trigger a thermonuclear explosion, so that's an impossibility.

nobody noticed it,but i did



lol

I noticed, but I didn't think it was worth a post.:p

No. You see, it takes a regular nuclear explosion to trigger a thermonuclear explosion, so that's an impossibility.

you shouldnt question the party like that comrade

This is only because our great leader and workers were so good at sealing the blast area, nothing escaped. In reality we detonated the largest nucluear bomb ever!
Actualy the french and other imperialist ,will love it
:eek:

Well, if there's even the possibility, people will worry for awhile. And just because he doesn't have one now doesn't mean he can't make one soon based on the data from this test. It was only a test, after all.

That's true, but the test just cost North Korea $145 million per year in trade with Japan; that's 11% of their exports and is a critical source of hard currency for the military. If they lose South Korean or Chinese trade due to sanctions, they will be in very bad shape since it's those loans and trade that keep them afloat.

They are gambling a lot here; this test might prevent them from getting a nuke or prolonging the timeframe extensively due to economic damage.

Mixing those up can have unpleasant consequences.

Or pleasant consequences.

World War 2 would have ended quite differently if Japan had been attacked with an atomic bong. :)

you shouldnt question the party like that comrade
Eh...ye olde USSR actually developed that one....comrade.:p
That's true, but the test just cost North Korea $145 million per year in trade with Japan; that's 11% of their exports and is a critical source of hard currency for the military. If they lose South Korean or Chinese trade due to sanctions, they will be in very bad shape since it's those loans and trade that keep them afloat.

They are gambling a lot here; this test might prevent them from getting a nuke or prolonging the timeframe extensively due to economic damage.

Maybe. But they also probably feel like they're under immense pressure to do something to keep the world's attention and other things. As the saying goes: "No publicity is bad publicity." I don't agree with that, but some people have funny logic.:p

Or pleasant consequences.

World War 2 would have ended quite differently if Japan had been attacked with an atomic bong. :)

Yeah, they would have exhausted their remaining food supplies with the ensuing case of the munchies. *nods*

Or pleasant consequences.

World War 2 would have ended quite differently if Japan had been attacked with an atomic bong. :)

Japan still would have lost, but they'd be way beyond caring.

Maybe. But they also probably feel like they're under immense pressure to do something to keep the world's attention and other things. As the saying goes: "No publicity is bad publicity." I don't agree with that, but some people have funny logic.:p

I'd have to agree; I think they're in a position where they can't go back or move forward, and they are stuck in this situation and need something, anything to make it happen. Maybe this is an attempt by the NK leadership to collapse the country and finally remove Kim Jong-Il from power.

They're stuck because it's impossible to reform because the decrees of Kim Il-Sung and those of his son are literally the Word of God in North Korea, and it is impossible to disobey them even if they're clearly ludicrous and harmful. The juche idea has long since evolved from a socialist ideology in to religious dogma, and the consequence of that evolution is the condition of North Korea today.

Japan still would have lost, but they'd be way beyond caring.
like you say,japan was lost anyway,with russian up north,all but impossible.

Japan still would have lost, but they'd be way beyond caring.

And instead of Godzilla, they would have had a giant killer pop tart. :)

I'd have to agree; I think they're in a position where they can't go back or move forward, and they are stuck in this situation and need something, anything to make it happen. Maybe this is an attempt by the NK leadership to collapse the country and finally remove Kim Jong-Il from power.

They're stuck because it's impossible to reform because the decrees of Kim Il-Sung and those of his son are literally the Word of God in North Korea, and it is impossible to disobey them even if they're clearly ludicrous and harmful. The juche idea has long since evolved from a socialist ideology in to religious dogma, and the consequence of that evolution is the condition of North Korea today.

It might be. That could explain why the test failed. But then that might have just been coincidence either way. NK is just one huge mess. I don't mind dictatorships and suchlike, but when the guy's a reckless nutjob like that, it's time for a change in leadership. A state should never be beyond the possibility for a legitimate change in leadership. But the real trouble is then determining the legitimacy. Who should get to decide? Certainly not the masses. They're even more tyrannical than any individual. A vexing problem...

It might be. That could explain why the test failed. But then that might have just been coincidence either way. NK is just one huge mess. I don't mind dictatorships and suchlike, but when the guy's a reckless nutjob like that, it's time for a change in leadership. A state should never be beyond the possibility for a legitimate change in leadership. But the real trouble is then determining the legitimacy. Who should get to decide? Certainly not the masses. They're even more tyrannical than any individual. A vexing problem...

Certanly the masses! But the masses of the whole of korea. With KJI gone it would leave the place open to some negotiations between the two and if the next leader was to be pro peace etc it could well happen. KJI currently is just making NK a worse and worse place, and UN embargoes will hurt it even more so.

If it's not the masses who decide then its a dictatorship which doesn't represent the people, and i think the people will just want peace and some more home comforts!

What some people are hoping is that the masses will rise against KJI and throw him out, leaving them open to join SK and form as Korea once more, i personally think its unlikely but there you go...I expect the problem will blow over, NK will suffer even more and we'll just carry on as before.

No. You see, it takes a regular nuclear explosion to trigger a thermonuclear explosion, so that's an impossibility.

thus the reason we call them 2 stage nuclear devices.

Yeah, they said they thought it wasn't a nuclear detonation only a few hours after it happened. The explosion only registered with the force of what you'd expect from standard explosives. They were saying that it looked like the detonators intended to set off the device had exploded, but not the device itself. This is just confirmation of that.

Not really a normal explosive, after all, the blast was something akin to one to half a kiloton, that's one or two million pounds of conventional explosives. That's a lot of conventional explosives, in my opinion.

Just having the detonators on a bomb go off, wouldn't be anywhere near enough to cause the shake that resulted.

There's a couple of possibilities:

1.) The detonators did go off, and were able to get a critical mass of plutonium or enriched uranium, but nowhere near what would be required for nuclear blast.

2.) In an attempt to conserve fissile material, they NK's made an extremely small bomb.

3.) They faked it, and stuffed an assload of conventional explosives underground, and set those off. There are many, many physical problems with doing this, getting the conventional explosives to all detonate at once, hiding the import of over 15,000 cubic feet of conventional explosives, and lots of other stuff.

North Korea is just one big sandy Vagina McGinestien, and Kim Jong Il is the labia.

This never looked like a nuclear device. Even North Korea's warning to China that they were going to detonate a niuke only claimed it would be a 4 kT device.

4kT is really small. All a test that size would do is demonstrate to the world how little fissile material you had.

3.) They faked it, and stuffed an assload of conventional explosives underground, and set those off. There are many, many physical problems with doing this, getting the conventional explosives to all detonate at once, hiding the import of over 50,000 cubic feet of conventional explosives, and lots of other stuff.

Well, we have to remember that North Korea has a lot of coal and chemical plants so it's entirely possible that they produced and stockpiled explosives for this purpose; pretty much any facility in NK can be converted to military purposes overnight, and it's plausible that they simply diverted production to explosives and whatever they couldn't make they imported for a different purpose.

For a half kiloton bomb, you'd need over 15,000 cubic feet of conventional explosives.

For a full kiloton bomb, you'd need about 32,000 cubic feet of conventional explosives.

That's one bitch of a tough thing to do, set off so much conventional bang.

Well, we have to remember that North Korea has a lot of coal and chemical plants so it's entirely possible that they produced and stockpiled explosives for this purpose; pretty much any facility in NK can be converted to military purposes overnight, and it's plausible that they simply diverted production to explosives and whatever they couldn't make they imported for a different purpose.

That's certainly not the objection I have.

The objections I have are based around how much explosives you'd have to use, and how one would be able to set off that much TNT at once. It's a nightmare technical problem, just to equal a tiny nuke.

What some people are hoping is that the masses will rise against KJI and throw him out, leaving them open to join SK and form as Korea once more, i personally think its unlikely but there you go...I expect the problem will blow over, NK will suffer even more and we'll just carry on as before.
NK had GDP of 1000$ per capita.
SK fad 20 times more.
the popolution in NK is half of SK.
if the regime in NK will collapse (which make both koreas unite), it make the economy of SK to collapse too, when dozens of milions of NK refugees will escape to the better life quality of the south.
I think SK will try to avoid it as they can.

That's certainly not the objection I have.

I'm just saying it's feasible to produce that much; getting it to work is a whole other task in itself.

The objections I have are based around how much explosives you'd have to use, and how one would be able to set off that much TNT at once. It's a nightmare technical problem, just to equal a tiny nuke.

I'd have to agree; however, the lack of radiation makes me wonder what it is. It might have just been a very small nuke, or it might have been a huge amount of conventional explosives...I don't know, and by the look of it most people don't know for sure.

NK had GDP of 1000$ per capita.
SK fad 20 times more.
the popolution in NK is half of SK.
if the regime in NK will collapse (which make both koreas unite), it make the economy of SK to collapse too, when dozens of milions of NK refugees will escape to the better life quality of the south.
I think SK will try to avoid it as they can.

I think south would be the wrong way to go. Any refugees fleeing a collapsed DPRK would probably go north, because, to go south, you'd have to deal with the DMZ, a nightmare gauntlet of landmines and booby traps.

if the regime in NK will collapse (which make both koreas unite), it make the economy of SK to collapse too, when dozens of milions of NK refugees will escape to the better life quality of the south.

Same thing with China; they don't want NK to collapse because they'd have to deal with a flood of refugees. They're already facing that problem now even with the regime still in power; it would be exponentially worse if the regime collapsed.

The best thing would be a Deng Xiaopeng style reform program; gradual introduction of market capitalism, the careful dismantlement of the military and opening of the media to foreign and domestic competition.

I'm just saying it's feasible to produce that much; getting it to work is a whole other task in itself.
Of course. During World War Two, we dropped something like four kilotons worth of TNT on German and Japanese cities, so I'm sure that the DPRK could produce that much TNT.



I'd have to agree; however, the lack of radiation makes me wonder what it is. It might have just been a very small nuke, or it might have been a huge amount of conventional explosives...I don't know, and by the look of it most people don't know for sure.

The lack of radiation does make me ask questions, but there are explainable answers.

I think south would be the wrong way to go. Any refugees fleeing a collapsed DPRK would probably go north, because, to go south, you'd have to deal with the DMZ, a nightmare gauntlet of landmines and booby traps.
but then, they are more likely to unite with china and not with SK, which is what I refered to in my post.

Of course. During World War Two, we dropped something like four kilotons worth of TNT on German and Japanese cities, so I'm sure that the DPRK could produce that much TNT.

It's the technical issues that make it unlikely, as you pointed out.

The lack of radiation does make me ask questions, but there are explainable answers.

True. If NK's nuke test was barely strong enough to register any radiation, we can rest assured that we'll be able to deal with the problem carefully without ushering in a nuclear apocalypse. It seems like they're playing a game of brinkmanship that does not reflect the reality of their nuclear capacity.

Same thing with China; they don't want NK to collapse because they'd have to deal with a flood of refugees. They're already facing that problem now even with the regime still in power; it would be exponentially worse if the regime collapsed.aren't that an expected result of the upcoming sanctions?

The best thing would be a Deng Xiaopeng style reform program; gradual introduction of market capitalism, the careful dismantlement of the military and opening of the media to foreign and domestic competition.reform take time.
when kim will lose his position it will collapse almost immediately and cause huge wave of refugees.
I can't see many of them stay in NK when nothing prohibit them to leave and they get the information about the life quality outside their borders.

aren't that an expected result of the upcoming sanctions?

Hopefully not; if sanctions were to cause the regime to collapse, we should refrain from imposing them. The chaos of a collapse in NK is far worse than the minuscule advances in nuclear technology over the past 12 years.

reform take time.
when kim will lose his position it will collapse almost immediately and cause huge wave of refugees.
I can't see many of them stay in NK when nothing prohibit them to leave and they get the information about the life quality outside their borders.

They wouldn't. That's why we need to play this situation very carefully; I think it all depends really on what Kim's actions are over the next few months and the years that follow.

For a half kiloton bomb, you'd need over 15,000 cubic feet of conventional explosives.

For a full kiloton bomb, you'd need about 32,000 cubic feet of conventional explosives.

That's one bitch of a tough thing to do, set off so much conventional bang.

A half KT blast would only be a slab 50x300x1 to make 15000 cubic feet. Size of a football field. To provide even detonation of something that size would not be impractically difficult. Though if they made is spherical to provide better simulation of a nuke it would be harder, but not impossible.

Certanly the masses! But the masses of the whole of korea. With KJI gone it would leave the place open to some negotiations between the two and if the next leader was to be pro peace etc it could well happen. KJI currently is just making NK a worse and worse place, and UN embargoes will hurt it even more so.

If it's not the masses who decide then its a dictatorship which doesn't represent the people, and i think the people will just want peace and some more home comforts!

What some people are hoping is that the masses will rise against KJI and throw him out, leaving them open to join SK and form as Korea once more, i personally think its unlikely but there you go...I expect the problem will blow over, NK will suffer even more and we'll just carry on as before.
You can't honestly say that a dictatorship not dictated by the masses doesn't represent the masses. It just means it's free the the corruptive influence of the tyranny of the masses.
thus the reason we call them 2 stage nuclear devices.

I know. But the point is that they'd still have to have the capacity to detonate a stage one nuclear device first.