NationStates Jolt Archive

The French parliament has adopted a bill making it a crime to deny that Armenians suffered "genocide" at the hands of the Turks, infuriating Turkey.

The bill, which provides for a year in jail and a heavy fine, still needs approval from the Senate and president.

Turkey called the decision a "serious blow" to relations with France. It has already threatened economic sanctions.

Armenia says Ottoman Turks killed 1.5 million people systematically in 1915 - a claim strongly denied by Turkey.

The European Commission has said that the bill, if passed into law, will "prohibit dialogue which is necessary for reconciliation" between Turkey and Armenia on the issue.
More here. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6043730.stm)

While I'm not completely comfortable with criminalising debate, I am pleased that the French parliament has taken some concrete steps towards the recognition of the Armenian genocide. Even if a lot of the international community would sooner sweep it under the carpet in order to suck up to Turkey. There was also a quote that I found just a little bit hypocritical:

Turkey's chief negotiator in EU membership talks, Ali Babacan, said: "This is violating one of the core principles of the European Union, which is freedom of expression."
That's a bit rich coming from a minister of a country which regularly prosecutes people who say the Armenian genocide hapenned! It's especially hypocritical when the Turkish parliament is currently considering laws which would criminalise denying French military action in Algeria to be genocide!

I don't like the idea of criminalizing thought or debate, but I'm glad someone is recognizing the Armenian holocaust. Wish they'd found a better way to do it though.

I oppose criminalizing stupidity.

It would be a lot better to mandate teaching it in school rather than criminalizing the denial. After all, it's part of history. Maybe everyone should be required to take a course on the atrocities committed throughout history, and this should be included.

Banning people from denying that it happened is insane. If people want to live in a world where nothing bad has ever happened to anyone, they can go demonstrate that fact by running in front of a moving semi and showing how it can't possibly kill them.

Is this a case of French politicians genuinely caring about the Armenian massacres? I think not. If we consider this in the context of France's (along with a lot of Western Europe) vehemently anti-Turkish attitudes in light of the former nation's aims to enter the European Union.

These people have had decades to propose and instigate this law, and they chose to do it now? I sincerely doubt they have any high motives other than to politicise Turkish relations and deliberately snub a nation by supporting implicit xenophobia.

It would be a lot better to mandate teaching it in school rather than criminalizing the denial. After all, it's part of history. Maybe everyone should be required to take a course on the atrocities committed throughout history, and this should be included.

Banning people from denying that it happened is insane. If people want to live in a world where nothing bad has ever happened to anyone, they can go demonstrate that fact by running in front of a moving semi and showing how it can't possibly kill them.

Very well said.

I don't like the idea of criminalizing thought or debate, but I'm glad someone is recognizing the Armenian holocaust. Wish they'd found a better way to do it though.

I agree. It's been almost 100 years and still the Turks are in denial. Isn't there a quote from some German politician in the 1930's about this?

I oppose criminalizing stupidity.
Why? Because more than 75% of the American public would be locked up? :D

Why? Because more than 75% of the American public would be locked up? :D

More than 99%, but no, that's not the reason. :D

More than 99%, but no, that's not the reason. :D

;) Oh... I see... wink wink...

Is this a case of French politicians genuinely caring about the Armenian massacres? I think not. If we consider this in the context of France's (along with a lot of Western Europe) vehemently anti-Turkish attitudes in light of the former nation's aims to enter the European Union.

These people have had decades to propose and instigate this law, and they chose to do it now? I sincerely doubt they have any high motives other than to politicise Turkish relations and deliberately snub a nation by supporting implicit xenophobia.
I do agree with you that it does seem like a lot of French politicians are using these laws as a way of antagonising Turkey and preventing them from entering the EU. Which is something I will support as I would never want to see Turkey in the EU anyway.

More than 99%, but no, that's not the reason. :D

**slaps Congo with a dead trout for trying to lump me in with those other 297 million**

**reminds Congo that there are plenty of people in this country who don't blindly vote Republican**

**throws arms in air in frustration and storms off**

**slaps Congo with a dead trout for trying to lump me in with those other 297 million**

**reminds Congo that there are plenty of people in this country who don't blindly vote Republican**

**throws arms in air in frustration and storms off**

You're one of the minority, IHP.

You're one of the minority, IHP.

**guzzles large beer in celebration of that**

More than 99%, but no, that's not the reason. :D

Do you want any of us to come visit you in the slammer?

I do agree with you that it does seem like a lot of French politicians are using these laws as a way of antagonising Turkey and preventing them from entering the EU. Which is something I will support as I would never want to see Turkey in the EU anyway.

Well, I believe that Turkey does belong in the EU... but that's another debate.

In any case, it is very irresponsible (and a severe breach of Separation of Powers) for the French legislature to meddle in diplomatic affairs (which is essentially what this amounts to), and risk anti-Turkish xenophobic sentiment, for party political reasons without the Executive's consent.

Maybe it's partially in response to Turkey's not only complete denial of the genocide, but it's active persecution of anyone who dares bring the issue up (under their 2005 law making it illegal for anyone to insult Turks, the republic or Turkish Grand National Assembly).
Like Orhan Pamuk, for example.
That's right: Telling the world factual history of Turkey is insulting Turkey and can have you arrested and thrown in gaol.
What a great addition this country's gonna be to the EU.

Do you want any of us to come visit you in the slammer?

Eh?

Is this a case of French politicians genuinely caring about the Armenian massacres? I think not. If we consider this in the context of France's (along with a lot of Western Europe) vehemently anti-Turkish attitudes in light of the former nation's aims to enter the European Union.

These people have had decades to propose and instigate this law, and they chose to do it now? I sincerely doubt they have any high motives other than to politicise Turkish relations and deliberately snub a nation by supporting implicit xenophobia.


There's a lot of armenian people in France. One of them (Patrick Devedjian) is a well-known politician (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Devedjian).

The armenian genocide was yet recognized in France. The difference (as told before) is that they want to outlaw the denial.

I don't like the idea of criminalizing thought or debate, but I'm glad someone is recognizing the Armenian holocaust. Wish they'd found a better way to do it though.The German government has admitted to it. Granted, we didn't directly do it, but we supplied the weapons.

**guzzles large beer in celebration of that**

Would you like some pretzels to go with your water? ;)

I don't like the idea of banning free expression of ideas, so a wag of the finger for France.

And one to Turkey as well, pretending it never happened is almost as bad as commiting the atrocity to begin... well, less then almost...

Turkey: "In response to certain events, were going to limit the freedom of speech of our people!"

NS: Boo!

France: "In response to Turkey limiting the freedom of speech of its citizens, were going to do the same thing!"

NS: Yay!

Why does France hate freedom?!

The German government has admitted to it. Granted, we didn't directly do it, but we supplied the weapons.

Huh? :confused:

I never liked the idea of criminalizing speech...

There's already a law in France criminalizing the denial of the Shoah, and it is well accepted, but personaly I don't like when politicians make laws about History.

Denying such events is just stupid, but I don't think that's "criminal". Just stupid, like telling that the Roman Empire didn't exist.

I do agree with you that it does seem like a lot of French politicians are using these laws as a way of antagonising Turkey and preventing them from entering the EU. Which is something I will support as I would never want to see Turkey in the EU anyway.

Why not?

More here. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6043730.stm)

While I'm not completely comfortable with criminalising debate, I am pleased that the French parliament has taken some concrete steps towards the recognition of the Armenian genocide. Even if a lot of the international community would sooner sweep it under the carpet in order to suck up to Turkey. There was also a quote that I found just a little bit hypocritical:


That's a bit rich coming from a minister of a country which regularly prosecutes people who say the Armenian genocide hapenned! It's especially hypocritical when the Turkish parliament is currently considering laws which would criminalise denying French military action in Algeria to be genocide!

What's happened to the freedom of speech? As the 3rd world immigrants increase, the democracy in France is going more 3rd world as I see it.
I'm wondering when they will acknowledge the genocide AGAINST Germans. What the red army did to Germans after WW2 isnt much different than what Ottomans have done to Armenians.

Huh? :confused:

The genozid happend in WW I.

The Turks were a ally of Germany, and as they had a lot of problems fighting against the British, Germany sent troops and material to the Ottomans.

They were not involved in the genocid, but they didn't do anything to prevent it.


Back to topic: A denial of a historical proven masscer is not right in my opinion. In Germany, it is outlawed to deny the Holocaust, and I think that this is good.

Nobody blames the turks of today for the genocid - but they must stop their stupid nationalism.

Why does France hate freedom?!

Because they're a bunch of pinko socialist commie sympathizers and terrorist appeasers.

Would you like some pretzels to go with your water? ;)

I don't like the idea of banning free expression of ideas, so a wag of the finger for France.

And one to Turkey as well, pretending it never happened is almost as bad as commiting the atrocity to begin... well, less then almost...

A wag of the finger at France for criminalizing speech, a kick in the pants to Turkey for killing a bunch of Armenians and then locking up anyone who says they did.

What's happened to the freedom of speech? As the 3rd world immigrants increase, the democracy in France is going more 3rd world as I see it.
I'm wondering when they will acknowledge the genocide AGAINST Germans. What the red army did to Germans after WW2 isnt much different than what Ottomans have done to Armenians.

Dear god do you ever shut up about immigrants!?

Because they're a bunch of pinko socialist commie sympathizers and terrorist appeasers.

I thought that's what the Democrats were? :p

unlike most of you, I oppose this descision by France. People should not be imprisoned for an opinion.

in france faschists use armenie as an excuse(against the arabs/turk/croissant,)
don't forget the grey wolf they will sell their mother.
like all faschist.
France don't do that.
they have the bomb
and the monney
they don't need to believe

now snipe

ps: belgium can do that.
taking faschist out
lol

**slaps Congo with a dead trout for trying to lump me in with those other 297 million**

**reminds Congo that there are plenty of people in this country who don't blindly vote Republican**

**throws arms in air in frustration and storms off**

You're right! There are also those people who blindly vote Democrat!

I agree. It's been almost 100 years and still the Turks are in denial. Isn't there a quote from some German politician in the 1930's about this?

To be the devil's advocate...it's been almost 100 years, when should atrocities like this be let go by society?

How far do we go back and demand apologies? Should the present day mongolians be held accountable for Genghis Kahn? Should we demand reparations from the italians for the acts of Caligula?

Eh?

You made the arrogant claim that you are among the smartest 1% of Americans. I was saying that if, indeed, the ninety-ninth percentile of stupid Americans were sent to prison that you would be with them.

But whatever, never mind.

You made the arrogant claim that you are among the smartest 1% of Americans. I was saying that if, indeed, the ninety-ninth percentile of stupid Americans were sent to prison that you would be with them.

But whatever, never mind.

Who said I was among the 1%?

And that sounds like a very subtle attempt at flamebait to me.

Is this a case of French politicians genuinely caring about the Armenian massacres? I think not. If we consider this in the context of France's (along with a lot of Western Europe) vehemently anti-Turkish attitudes in light of the former nation's aims to enter the European Union.

These people have had decades to propose and instigate this law, and they chose to do it now? I sincerely doubt they have any high motives other than to politicise Turkish relations and deliberately snub a nation by supporting implicit xenophobia.

bollocks. the turks want into our club, they play by certain rules. including acknowleding your unsavoury past.

throwing people in jail for even mentioning the genocide is farcical and they have to stop. and if the french highight what the EU have stated as things they need to sort out, good.

that and using dogs to rape kurdish women. just a pity nato havent the balls to say boo

And I was being facetious when I said "99%." -.-

in france faschists use armenie as an excuse(against the arabs/turk/croissant,)
don't forget the grey wolf they will sell their mother.
like all faschist.
France don't do that.
they have the bomb
and the monney
they don't need to believe

now snipe

ps: belgium can do that.
taking faschist out
lol

I'm sorry, did you just say that in France, fascists use Armenia as an excuse against croissants?

Im very happy that this is being acknowledged. However, I am wary of any motion that makes "saying" something a crime. I wonder what a government could criminalise until the people could no longer take it seriously. I do not think any bans on speech should be tolerated by any free people.

Who said I was among the 1%?

And that sounds like a very subtle attempt at flamebait to me.

Its very subtle indeed if you actually had to ask me to come out with it.

. I do not think any bans on speech should be tolerated by any free people.

is it ok to advertise cyanide as baby food?

is it ok to call someone a peadophile maliciously?

is it ok to scream fire in a crowded theatre?

'free speech' is an empty soundbite, its limited everywhere.

is it ok to advertise cyanide as baby food?

is it ok to call someone a peadophile maliciously?

is it ok to scream fire in a crowded theatre?

'free speech' is an empty soundbite, its limited everywhere.

"Free speech" is defined usually as "free speech that doesn't directly cause violence or harm." Also, it's fine to believe a lie; it's not OK to force others to believe that same lie. Therefore, schools should teach Darwin's theory of evolution, they should teach the Holocaust and the Armenian genocide, and they should teach the moon landing; people are free to believe that none of these are true if they want to.

In terms of what people want to believe, they can believe that Jesus rescued all the Jews from molten lava shot out of AK-47s by Satan's followers by taking a shit on their guns if they want to; history should teach what there is historical evidence for. There is evidence for the Holocaust and the Armenian genocide; therefore, they should be taught. People have the right to believe they never happened, and criminalizing the denial of a genocide is almost as insane as criminalizing the mentioning of it (provided we're talking about a genocide that has historical evidence. I should be allowed to deny that the state legislature of Kansas committed genocide against left-handed men named Earl in 1968, because there's no historical evidence of it.)

french "moderate right wing" will do anything.
election are on
democracy at its best

I thought that's what the Democrats were? :p

Democrats, French, what's the difference? They're both wine-drinking, brie-eating, beret wearing pansies.

What genocide?

Well if we say turkey is restricting freedom of speech, isnt half of europe doing that already with the law that makes it illegal to deny the holocaust?
And couldnt we further say that if we hadnt used the treaty of versailles to completly destory the german economy after WWI then hitler wouldnt have gotten into power? I cant imagine france making a law about that...

Well anyway, i dont think anyone should restrict freedom of speech like that, i mean, imagine if it really didnt happen...

Democrats, French, what's the difference? They're both wine-drinking, brie-eating, beret wearing pansies.
you forgot the bread

What genocide?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

Well if we say turkey is restricting freedom of speech, isnt half of europe doing that already with the law ..

you could stop here

I agree. It's been almost 100 years and still the Turks are in denial. Isn't there a quote from some German politician in the 1930's about this?

In Mein Kampf, when Hitler talks about getting rid of Jewry, he says something like, and in a decade or two, nobody will even remember it, for who now cares, or remembers the slaughter of the Armenians?

You see... I don't support any inflictions on the Right to Free Speech... but I also don't want Turkey in the EU until it admits the Armenian Genocide, and France is making them have to.

Toughie.

Democrats, French, what's the difference? They're both wine-drinking, brie-eating, beret wearing pansies.

I was being sarcastic. :P

I was being sarcastic. :P

Me too.

To be the devil's advocate...it's been almost 100 years, when should atrocities like this be let go by society?

How far do we go back and demand apologies? Should the present day mongolians be held accountable for Genghis Kahn? Should we demand reparations from the italians for the acts of Caligula?

Well, let's see ... I don't believe the present-day Mongolians deny that Genghis Khan killed a lot of people, in fact, they'd probably condemn the acts. And Caligula, well, given that he was stabbed to death because of his acts, I'd say his acts have been fairly well repudiated (he didn't get to be a god, either). It's easy to say "Get over it and move on," even as the Devil's advocate, but when there are still people living whose lives were shattered by the genocide, and the country who perpetrated it essentially in public (there were many non-Turkish, non-Armenian witnesses, notably several Americans) still denies it happened, I don't think it's time yet.

And has anyone commented on the Turkish writer who spoke out about the denial winning the 2006 Noebl Prize for Literature? Orhan Pamuk his name is.

the funny part is the turkish reaction.
they said if this law will pass, they will pass law criminialises the algerian genocide denial of the french.
except of that being childish from them, I didn't know france tried to deny it happened.

We all know that French did this because they didnt want Turkey in the EU. I wish they could have been more honest so that'd have sent a pack it up and get out signal to muslim immigrants.