NationStates Jolt Archive

It's just indescribible. The carnage is out of control and I see no way that it will ever get better. Freedom is on the march, though. I was just reading this news story and it just kind of struck me. Everyday these tortured bodies just keep showing up. Bombs are going off. Gunmen are storming police stations, TV stations, government buildings.


BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Gunmen stormed the offices of a Sunni satellite TV station Thursday in Baghdad, killing nine people, police said.

The attack took place in the eastern neighborhood of Zayuna when the gunmen got out of six cars and barged into the Shaabiya satellite channel.

An official with the station earlier identified five of the dead as station employees and two others as guards. It's unclear who the remaining two were.

The station has not officially opened and has only aired test broadcasts, an official said.

Eight others died Thursday in scattered attacks in the capital.

In central Baghdad's Bab al-Shurqi commercial area, two bombs exploded within 10 minutes of each other, killing five people and wounding 10 others, including three police officers, police said.

Also in central Baghdad, a motorcycle rigged with explosives went off as it targeted a police patrol, killing three people and wounding 15 others. One of the dead and five of the wounded were police officers in the Qahira Square attack.

In northern Baghdad, four civilians were wounded when a bomb exploded near a fuel station.

Separately, Iraqi police officials found 40 bullet-riddled bodies Wednesday in various neighborhoods throughout the capital, all showing signs of torture.

More than 400 bodies have been found in similar condition in Baghdad this month alone. Police suspect the killings are a result of sectarian violence between Shiite and Sunni Arabs.

U.S. soldiers killed
Two U.S. soldiers were killed Wednesday in separate incidents.

One was killed and two others wounded in northern Iraq's Tameem province "as a result of enemy action," according to a military statement Thursday.

The dead soldier was assigned to the 3rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team and is a member of Task Force Lightning, the military said.

The other soldier died when a roadside bomb struck his patrol in central Baghdad, the military said.

There have been 39 U.S. military deaths in October. The number of U.S. troops killed in the Iraq war stands at 2,746. Seven American military contractors also have been killed in the war.

Army plans current troop levels through 2010
The Army is planning for the possibility that U.S. troops will remain in Iraq at current levels through 2010, the service's chief of staff said Wednesday.

Gen. Peter Schoomaker said conditions could change but told reporters he has to plan for such a scenario so that combat brigades will be ready when needed.

The United States has about 15 combat brigades in Iraq, the equivalent of 140,000 to 145,000 troops. Last month, Gen. John Abizaid, the chief of U.S. forces in the Middle East, said those levels would be maintained through at least next spring due to rising sectarian violence, especially in Baghdad and western Iraq's Anbar province.

President Bush on Wednesday underscored U.S. efforts to help the besieged Iraqi government, saying, "The stakes couldn't be any higher."

"If we were to abandon that country before the Iraqis can defend their young democracy, the terrorists would take control of Iraq and establish a new safe haven from which to launch new attacks on America," Bush said at a news conference in the White House Rose Garden.

Bush also criticized those Democrats who have urged a time frame be set for U.S. withdrawal.

"When you pull out before the job is done, that's 'cut and run,' as far as I'm concerned," he said. "And that's 'cut and run' as far as most Americans are concerned."

Bush's comments came as Iraq's parliament approved a law allowing the country's 18 provinces to hold referendums on merging with other provinces to create a federal region.

Shiites in the country's south favor the creation of a federal region that would be similar to the Kurdish autonomous region in the north. The Shiite-led United Iraqi Alliance backed the legislation.

Sunnis oppose such regions, saying Shiites and Kurds would control the country's oil riches to the detriment of Sunnis -- who do not live in the oil-producing areas of Iraq.

The legislation passed despite the boycott by two top Sunni blocs, a secular party and two smaller Shiite movements.

Study claims nearly 655,000 Iraqi deaths
Nearly 655,000 Iraqis have died as a direct result of the war, mostly through violence or deteriorating health and environmental conditions, according to American and Iraqi public health researchers. (Watch as the study's startling numbers are revealed -- 1:55)

They found that since the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003, "an additional 2.5 percent of Iraq's population have died above what would have occurred without conflict."

At his news conference, Bush slammed the report, saying, "The methodology is pretty well discredited." (Watch Bush dismiss the report -- 1:33 )

He said Gen. George Casey, the top-ranking U.S. military official in Iraq, and Iraqi officials agree the report lacks credibility.

In a statement, an Iraqi government spokesman said the report "has exaggerated and unbelievable figures." (Full story)

But an author of the survey defended the work, saying it used methodology common in epidemiological studies.

The survey's release coincided with figures from the Iraqi Health Ministry that found that more than 2,660 Iraqi civilians in Baghdad were killed last month, according to The Associated Press.

The figures came in an official monthly report from the Iraqi Health Ministry to the Cabinet, the AP reported, citing two senior Health Ministry officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.

On Wednesday, the United Nations' humanitarian chief, Jan Egeland, said that "blunt, brutal violence" has targeted police, recruits, judges and lawyers, with women increasingly being attacked for so-called honor killings, according to the AP.

"Revenge killing seems to be totally out of control," the AP quoted Egeland as saying.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/12/iraq.main/index.html

THE PRESIDENT: Because we acted to defend our country, the murderous regimes of Saddam Hussein and the Taliban are history, more than 50 million people have been liberated, and democracy is coming to the broader Middle East. (Applause.) In Afghanistan, terrorists have done everything they can to intimidate people -- yet more than 10 million citizens have registered to vote in the October presidential election -- a resounding endorsement for democracy. (Applause.) Despite ongoing acts of violence, Iraq now has a strong Prime Minister, a national council, and national elections are scheduled for January. Our nation is standing with the people of Afghanistan and Iraq, because when America gives its word, America must keep its word. (Applause.)

As importantly, we are serving a vital and historic cause that will make our country safer. Free societies in the Middle East will be hopeful societies, which no longer feed resentments and breed violence for export. Free governments in the Middle East will fight terrorists instead of harboring them, and that helps us keep the peace. (Applause.) So our mission in Afghanistan and Iraq is clear: We will help new leaders to train their armies, and move toward elections, and get on the path of stability and democracy as quickly as possible. And then our troops will return home with the honor they have earned. (Applause.)

Our troops know the historic importance of our work. One Army Specialist wrote home: "We are transforming a once sick society into a hopeful place. The various terrorist enemies we are facing in Iraq," he continued, "are really aiming at you back in the United States. This is a test of will for our country. We soldiers of yours are doing great and scoring victories and confronting the evil terrorists."

That young man is right -- our men and women in uniform are doing a superb job for America. (Applause.) Tonight I want to speak to all of them, and to their families: You are involved in a struggle of historic proportion. Because of your service and sacrifice, we are defeating the terrorists where they live and plan, and you're making America safer. Because of you, women in Afghanistan are no longer shot in a sports stadium. Because of you, the people of Iraq no longer fear being executed and left in mass graves. Because of you, the world is more just and will be more peaceful. We owe you our thanks, and we owe you something more. We will give you all the resources, all the tools, and all the support you need for victory. (Applause.) :mad:

I'm proud of the Bush administration's willingness to remain in Iraq until a stable, secular, Jeffersonian democracy emerges. It may mean we'll have troops fighting over there for the next five hundred years or more at the cost of thousands of trillions of dollars and hundreds of millions of lives, but it's a small sacrifice to make in order to depose the bloodthirsty tyrant, Saddam Hussein.

Shame on the Democrat pussies who want to cut and run.

I'm proud of the Bush administration's willingness to remain in Iraq until a stable, secular, Jeffersonian democracy emerges. It may mean we'll have troops fighting over there for the next five hundred years or more at the cost of thousands of trillions of dollars and hundreds of millions of lives, but it's a small sacrifice to make in order to depose the bloodthirsty tyrant, Saddam Hussein.

Shame on the Democrat pussies who want to cut and run.
Actually, I'm going to ignore your irony for a second and agree (a bit) with what you said; it was a stupid thing to do in the first place, but now we've gone over there and fucked it all up it's our responsibility to fix it. Declaring victory and leaving would be a right bastard thing to do.

'Course, I have no practical idea of how to actually achieve that.

I think it also needs to be pointed out that they still love us occupying them, with only 90% of the population wanting us gone. Thank God majority rules!

Mission accomplished?

Mission accomplished?

Mission Impossible?

Because of you, the people of Iraq no longer fear being executed and left in mass graves.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

It's true. Now they find their tortured corpses floating in the river or on a street corner amid the trash.

Mission Impossible?
Dun-dun duh diddle dun-dun duh duh dun-dun duh diddle dun-dun...

I just wish someone had noticed that about 3-4 years earlier?

I bet the captain of the Titanic also had the best intentions in mind when he went ahead with "Stay the course"?

It's true. Now they find their tortured corpses floating in the river or on a street corner amid the trash.

True. But that's not much different than being in a mass grave. Either way, people are getting gruesomely murdered.

True. But that's not much different than being in a mass grave. Either way, people are getting gruesomely murdered.

Its very different. In Saddam's Iraq you would go about your life with the constant fear that today could be the day that you are diasappeared and next be seen dead. In today's Iraq you can live your life free untill such a point as you are murdered by an unsuspected Suicide attack or random Sectarian murder.

Extrajudicial execution was endemic in both in both times. But at least now there is a democratic process and serious hope of improving the situation.

Actually, I'm going to ignore your irony for a second and agree (a bit) with what you said; it was a stupid thing to do in the first place, but now we've gone over there and fucked it all up it's our responsibility to fix it. Declaring victory and leaving would be a right bastard thing to do.

'Course, I have no practical idea of how to actually achieve that.

Whether you go now or later, six months after the US is out of the picture whatver passes for a western-style government in Iraq will collapse, and we'll see yet another Muslim theocracy emerge. I'll bet a whole bag of cookies on that eventuality.

Its very different. In Saddam's Iraq you would go about your life with the constant fear that today could be the day that you are diasappeared and next be seen dead. In today's Iraq you can live your life free untill such a point as you are murdered by an unsuspected Suicide attack or random Sectarian murder.WHAT?!? People are not free there! They are afraid to leave their houses. The death toll is higher than it ever was under Saddam. People sit and watch people dying in the street because they are afraid to help them. Children do not go to school. What the Hell world do you live in?

Extrajudicial execution was endemic in both in both times. But at least now there is a democratic process and serious hope of improving the situation.

What hope?!?! This is an absolutel disaster for Iraq and for the world! This whole war was a mistake of historic proportions. The violence is goping to get worse in Iraq, Iran will control Iraq in a few years after America and teh UK slink away with their tails between their legs, the violence may spread throughtout the Middle East and the world will be flung into an energy crisis the likes of which we cannot imagine right now.

Whether you go now or later, six months after the US is out of the picture whatver passes for a western-style government in Iraq will collapse, and we'll see yet another Muslim theocracy emerge. I'll bet a whole bag of cookies on that eventuality.

My prediction, as well.

Whether you go now or later, six months after the US is out of the picture whatver passes for a western-style government in Iraq will collapse, and we'll see yet another Muslim theocracy emerge. I'll bet a whole bag of cookies on that eventuality.agreed on that. The French and every other country that stood up and said "don't invade Iraq" are looking very smart right now. That's what you get for electing a President that never set foot outside of his own country, he hasn't a f*****g clue in regards to international politics. Now GWB wants the world to follow has lead in regards to North Korea, he has zero credibility with the world powers.

Whether you go now or later, six months after the US is out of the picture whatver passes for a western-style government in Iraq will collapse, and we'll see yet another Muslim theocracy emerge. I'll bet a whole bag of cookies on that eventuality.
I don't doubt it, but maybe everyone will think better of us (it isn't, perhaps sadly, just the US there) if we try and clear up the mess a bit so that the Muslim theocracy Iraq winds up with has working electricity, hospitals, and relatively low levels of roadside bombing.

That's my hopelessly optimistic thought for the day, anyway.

Split the country in three, then arm the shit out of the Kurds.

Best chance I see, sadly.

Split the country in three, then arm the shit out of the Kurds.

Best chance I see, sadly.

yeah

yeah

So...who gets the rest? :p

So...who gets the rest? :p

Iran

Iran

Just Iran? You don't think Syria will join in?

Just Iran? You don't think Syria will join in?

Sure. A whole shiite crescent in the Middle East that really hates the West and will probably start funding terrorist organizations in Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Then the US and it's military get choked off of their oil and they start funding terrorist organizations here and in Europe...

It's going to be a mess and George Bush is responsible as is everyone who voted for him and supports him.

Sure. A whole shiite crescent in the Middle East that really hates the West and will probably start funding terrorist organizations in Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Then the US and it's military get choked off of their oil and they start funding terrorist organizations here and in Europe...

It's going to be a mess and George Bush is responsible as is everyone who voted for him and supports him.

Oh pshaw. Ya'll're over reactin' - like Kondi said, it's juss' the 'pangs of birth'. Ehyuck.

Sure. A whole shiite crescent in the Middle East that really hates the West and will probably start funding terrorist organizations in Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Then the US and it's military get choked off of their oil and they start funding terrorist organizations here and in Europe...

It's going to be a mess and George Bush is responsible as is everyone who voted for him and supports him.

Start funding terrorism in Saudi Arabia? Who do you think was behind the Khobar Towers bombing?

Start funding terrorism in Saudi Arabia? Who do you think was behind the Khobar Towers bombing?

What I mean is that the Shiite majority in Jordan will get money and weapons from Iran and Syria to help overthrow one of the few stable regimes in the ME and then they'll help the Shiites in SA and Egypt to do the same.

Start funding terrorism in Saudi Arabia? Who do you think was behind the Khobar Towers bombing?

Riyadh's one of the world's premier terrorist capitals. I don't know why we trust the fuckers.

Riyadh's one of the world's premier terrorist capitals. I don't know why we trust the fuckers.

Yeah, but Iran did that one.

Quote:
THE PRESIDENT: Because we acted to defend our country, the murderous regimes of Saddam Hussein and the Taliban are history, more than 50 million people have been liberated, and democracy is coming to the broader Middle East. (Applause.) In Afghanistan, terrorists have done everything they can to intimidate people -- yet more than 10 million citizens have registered to vote in the October presidential election -- a resounding endorsement for democracy. (Applause.) Despite ongoing acts of violence, Iraq now has a strong Prime Minister, a national council, and national elections are scheduled for January. Our nation is standing with the people of Afghanistan and Iraq, because when America gives its word, America must keep its word. (Applause.)

As importantly, we are serving a vital and historic cause that will make our country safer. Free societies in the Middle East will be hopeful societies, which no longer feed resentments and breed violence for export. Free governments in the Middle East will fight terrorists instead of harboring them, and that helps us keep the peace. (Applause.) So our mission in Afghanistan and Iraq is clear: We will help new leaders to train their armies, and move toward elections, and get on the path of stability and democracy as quickly as possible. And then our troops will return home with the honor they have earned. (Applause.)

Our troops know the historic importance of our work. One Army Specialist wrote home: "We are transforming a once sick society into a hopeful place. The various terrorist enemies we are facing in Iraq," he continued, "are really aiming at you back in the United States. This is a test of will for our country. We soldiers of yours are doing great and scoring victories and confronting the evil terrorists."

That young man is right -- our men and women in uniform are doing a superb job for America. (Applause.) Tonight I want to speak to all of them, and to their families: You are involved in a struggle of historic proportion. Because of your service and sacrifice, we are defeating the terrorists where they live and plan, and you're making America safer. Because of you, women in Afghanistan are no longer shot in a sports stadium. Because of you, the people of Iraq no longer fear being executed and left in mass graves. Because of you, the world is more just and will be more peaceful. We owe you our thanks, and we owe you something more. We will give you all the resources, all the tools, and all the support you need for victory. (Applause.)
:mad:

http://home.maine.rr.com/waassaap/Forum%20Pictures/Random/bush%20wtf.jpg

I'm proud of the Bush administration's willingness to remain in Iraq until a stable, secular, Jeffersonian democracy emerges. It may mean we'll have troops fighting over there for the next five hundred years or more at the cost of thousands of trillions of dollars and hundreds of millions of lives, but it's a small sacrifice to make in order to depose the bloodthirsty tyrant, Saddam Hussein.

Shame on the Democrat pussies who want to cut and run.

I really couldn't care what the Americans do, so long as the British troops are pulled out of there (and maybe Afghanistan as well) ASAFP.

I think it also needs to be pointed out that they still love us occupying them, with only 90% of the population wanting us gone. Thank God majority rules!

It's like a cappuchino. That top ninety percent is all froth. The ten percent who want us there may be small, but they are dense!

Split the country in three, then arm the shit out of the Kurds.

Best chance I see, sadly.

Which then pisses off Turkey because they've got their own local Kurds who have the same idea and might see this as a green light from Uncle Sam to start their own Kurdistan franchise on Turkish soil.

And I do recall Turkey is a U.S. ally, just like lovely Pakistan.

It's going to be a mess and George Bush is responsible as is everyone who voted for him and supports him.

Even without partisan and personal dislikes of the Frat Chimp factored in, anyone who would put an Ivy League C-Average MBA who bankrupted three successive companies given to him by Daddy in charge of the biggest business of them all is someone who ought to have their voter registrations revoked.

"Extended Warranty? How can I lose?"

Which then pisses off Turkey because they've got their own local Kurds who have the same idea and might see this as a green light from Uncle Sam to start their own Kurdistan franchise on Turkish soil.

So does Iran...

...I'm normally not this sterotypically American, but in this instance I think we should just tell Turkey to shut the hell up. The problem might not have been this bad had they allowed us to stage troops from their territory.

And I do recall Turkey is a U.S. ally, just like lovely Pakistan.

While history shows that it is unlikely, I'd love to see the U.S. broker more amicable ties between Pakistan and India, if only to help them act as a counterweight to Chinese influence.

It's not like both nations don't have a lot to gain from being friends instead of enemies.

Dun-dun duh diddle dun-dun duh duh dun-dun duh diddle dun-dun...

I just wish someone had noticed that about 3-4 years earlier?

I bet the captain of the Titanic also had the best intentions in mind when he went ahead with "Stay the course"?

PLENTY of people knew this. Hell, George Bush Sr. knew this, and said that an invasion of Iraq would be next to impossible to, and would require having troops there for a very long time. Would have been really great if they had a historian or cultural anthropologist on the Bush crew before tehy invaded. However, I'm sure they would have bitch slapped him for even thinking that we would be in and out with ease.

Oh, how difficult it was to envisage a civil conflict in Iraq! Oh my, how very unfortunate George Bush was!

My word, the current situation is an exemplar of quite why invasion was manifestly wrong; The removal of Saddam was a failry summary matter, however, did it not strike US policy advisors that, given that Saddam required the full apparatues of a police state to retain power, the establishment of democracy within Iraq would be unfeasible. I sincerely hope Britain pulls out of Iraq with alcrity, and abandons the US army to its fate.

Oh, how difficult it was to envisage a civil conflict in Iraq! Oh my, how very unfortunate George Bush was!

My word, the current situation is an exemplar of quite why invasion was manifestly wrong; The removal of Saddam was a failry summary matter, however, did it not strike US policy advisors that, given that Saddam required the full apparatues of a police state to retain power, the establishment of democracy within Iraq would be unfeasible. I sincerely hope Britain pulls out of Iraq with alcrity, and abandons the US army to its fate.

Not while the dog dish still has "Tony" written on it.

Not while the dog dish still has "Tony" written on it.

He he he. In any case, I would be shocked if, provided Britain is still present in force in Iraq in 2009, Cameron does not make withdrawal a policy.

He he he. In any case, I would be shocked if, provided Britain is still present in force in Iraq in 2009, Cameron does not make withdrawal a policy.

I would be shocked if, with the Democrats in control in 2007, the US doesn't make withdrawal a priority.

also sad is the corruption in the police force In Iraq.

according to a rookie in the Iraqi police force at most 10% of them are not corrupt.

you have to bribe them to get into the police force (used to be about $700 but apparently its gone up - the pay the police get is $350/mo which is a good wage for Iraq). I guess you need a referral from the police officer to join, although the rookie I am talking about above was gotten in by a good cop.

Most of the police love to work the checkpoints apparently because they make really good money on bribes there.

They are in cahoots with the militias and only punish them if they kill civilians, but if they kill US soldiers then they let them go (which I dont really blame them for).

I would be shocked if, with the Democrats in control in 2007, the US doesn't make withdrawal a priority.

It would be somewhat a waste of effort though....

I think it also needs to be pointed out that they still love us occupying them, with only 90% of the population wanting us gone. Thank God majority rules!

Yup, the best part about it is, you can't rule without support of the population, and you will NEVER EVER be able to defeat a guerrilla force that has support of the population. Everytime you think you beat it, its really beaten you, and gets stronger. Its over, we lost, get over it.

Oh, how difficult it was to envisage a civil conflict in Iraq! Oh my, how very unfortunate George Bush was!

My word, the current situation is an exemplar of quite why invasion was manifestly wrong; The removal of Saddam was a failry summary matter, however, did it not strike US policy advisors that, given that Saddam required the full apparatues of a police state to retain power, the establishment of democracy within Iraq would be unfeasible. I sincerely hope Britain pulls out of Iraq with alcrity, and abandons the US army to its fate.

can we finally stop saying that bush1 made a mistake in not invading iraq and removing saddam hussein when he had the chance?

papa bush knew something about the world. he left saddam in power because he knew what would happen if he was removed. baby bush only knows what he wants to be true about the world so he got us into an intractable mess.

Its very different. In Saddam's Iraq you would go about your life with the constant fear that today could be the day that you are diasappeared and next be seen dead. In today's Iraq you can live your life free untill such a point as you are murdered by an unsuspected Suicide attack or random Sectarian murder.

Extrajudicial execution was endemic in both in both times. But at least now there is a democratic process and serious hope of improving the situation.

you make me sick, are you under a rock?

can we finally stop saying that bush1 made a mistake in not invading iraq and removing saddam hussein when he had the chance?

papa bush knew something about the world. he left saddam in power because he knew what would happen if he was removed. baby bush only knows what he wants to be true about the world so he got us into an intractable mess.

Of course if he knew what was going to happen, Daddy Bush could have held back on cheerleading the Kurds to carry out Bay of Pigs 2.

True. But that's not much different than being in a mass grave. Either way, people are getting gruesomely murdered.

Look old scores are being settled. There was alot of built up resentment and frustration that Saddam kept a lid on because he was so repressive. When a hint of freedom comes. People feel free to settle there problems the old fashioned way.

With other nations supporting these death squads inside Iraq it is difficult to stop. I say seal the borders with US troops and let the Iraqi's square it away inside the country itself.

Look old scores are being settled. There was alot of built up resentment and frustration that Saddam kept a lid on because he was so repressive. When a hint of freedom comes. People feel free to settle there problems the old fashioned way.

With other nations supporting these death squads inside Iraq it is difficult to stop. I say seal the borders with US troops and let the Iraqi's square it away inside the country itself.

You just proved that you know way more about Iraq than this administration does.

I really couldn't care what the Americans do, so long as the British troops are pulled out of there (and maybe Afghanistan as well) ASAFP.

No you don't. This goes to both Americans and Brits.

You broke it, you fix it. :mad:

Don't you fucking cut and run. Whoever/whatever fills in the vacuum (winner of the clash of sunni, shia and kurds in Iraq, pakiban-taliban and northern alliance in Afg) will proceed to kill the others in MUCH HUGE numbers than what you are seeing now.

No you don't. This goes to both Americans and Brits.

You broke it, you fix it. :mad:

Don't you fucking cut and run. Whoever/whatever fills in the vacuum (winner of the clash of sunni, shia and kurds in Iraq, pakiban-taliban and northern alliance in Afg) will proceed to kill the others in MUCH HUGE numbers than what you are seeing now.
Possibly, but I'd prefer to see the taxes paid by British people not being spunked on what has essentially been a catastrophic war when it could have gone on something useful like NHS reform.