NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061009/wl_nm/religion_cartoons_oic_dc

This is quite funny considering that many of their government owned newspapers produce the following.

http://www.adl.org/cartoon_campaign/default_slide_show.asp

All of the following cartoons come from this link: http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_arab_press_080702.asp
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoons/7_28_al_watan.jpg
A Jewish caricature writes President Bush's speech. The caption reads "America's attitude towards Gaza's massacre."

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoons/7-13-02-Al-Ahram-Al-Arabi_400.jpg
A blood-stained Ariel Sharon, in a shirt decorated with a swastika, shoots with a gun in his left hand and holds a club in his right. The label on the right side says "the human rights" and that on the left says "The UN's resolutions" and "children," so it looks as if Sharon is shooting down one and clubbing the other.

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/sharon_blood_libel.jpg
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is shown drinking from a goblet labeled "The Palestinian Children's Blood."
NOTE: Such blood libel has been commonly used by anti-semites throughout the centuries. It has been used since the middle ages and was continued by the Czars and Nazis.

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_022502.gif
A sneering Ariel Sharon is shown watching an Israeli plane crash into the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center. The Arabic words are "The Peace." This cartoon restates the myth, widely accepted in the Arab world, that Israel and Jews were responsible for the attack.

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/arab_press_61002b.gif
The Jew on the right says: "Say: 'I hate the Arabs'!", and the American on the left repeats: "I hate the Arabs, I hate the Arabs".

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/al-ahram-syria-may29_02.jpg
A Jewish caricature is shown fueling the "world media" with "Zionist Media" propaganda while, in the background, bombs are falling on Arab cities. The stereotypical Jew, with his long beard and hooked nose, is a common image used by the Muslim and Arab media. For this cartoon, the Syrian artist also evokes the anti-Semitic canard of supposed "Jewish control" of the international news media.


http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoons/cartoon_2006922.jpg
Akhbar Al-Khalij, September 22, 2006 (Bahrain)
The Star of David representing the Jews is using the Cross to slam the Crescent of “Islam.”


http://www.adl.org/NR/rdonlyres/ehrgp6obn4zzan6erznk7xd6pfssecaaezmitnxu4w6xomaekx3g76kjwllb4jsbcmw2h5yl6n4hpb/01.jpg
Al-Watan, August 24, 2006 (Oman)

Printed above the door: "The Security Council"


http://www.adl.org/NR/rdonlyres/e7rnoypcthzyg5ur4mp2avjjpvr7shkby4m47otoqnzzrebkbaxvxvzlbosru3bgkm5gtimk6h2bgp/07cover.jpg
Al-Gumhuriyya, August 9, 2006 (Egypt)

The cartoon's headline is: "America helps Israel destroy Lebanon."


http://www.adl.org/NR/rdonlyres/efrpi6f3fh7u7hciw5li7uc4lu5slyuxfpibg3hceljjjhkmpnvdevz5triud7d4wda4g5roo2mkah/12.jpg
Ad-Dustur, August 5, 2006 (Jordan)

In Arabic: "A Code of Honor" on Olmert's chest.

Funny, I don't recall Jews in NYC shooting Muslims and burning down embassies over any of these tens of thousands of cartoons from the Islamic World. In fact, I believe that Israel held a contest where Jews made anti-semitic cartoons in order to laugh off what the Islamic media has done. Too bad Mel Brooks isn't an artist, he would've won.

I guess none of the above is surprising considering that the people in these Islamic nations are taught that "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is legitimate.

:eek:

The cartoons explain why they hate us. It's pretty easy to be brainwashed when you are taught at a young age that this is the truth. It's also easy to brainwash people when the majority of your people are uneducated.

Condemning the Danish cartoons and being against free speech are two different things.

I can condemn the KKK without opposing their right to present their bigoted filth.

The cartoons explain why they hate us. It's pretty easy to be brainwashed when you are taught at a young age that this is the truth. It's also easy to brainwash people when the majority of your people are uneducated.
Ok, so what are you going to do? Hate them back? I agree inaction isn't the answer, but I disagree the answer lies in violence/armaments. I truly think what Israel/USA should do is make economically stabilising and developing the middle-east their number 1 priority (rather than the inverse). That way, in the short term you have the 'evil ones' winning support and debunking propaganda against them. Meanwhile, in the long term you have multiple nations of wealthy trading partners who are mostly educated. Educated rich people don't blow themselves up (well, rarely). The only way I see this happening is if USA withdraws support for Israel. That'll smarten them up pretty quick. Israel sans-USA will be much much more interested in making friends methinks.

Condemning the Danish cartoons and being against free speech are two different things.

I can condemn the KKK without opposing their right to present their bigoted filth.

It is wrong to condemn cartoons when agents of your government are producing the above cartoons. You have to remember that many of the media outlets in those countries are owned by the state. They should cleanup their own acts before bitching about a few harmless cartoons that are nowhere near what they put out.

It's perfectly OK to condemn the KKK, just make sure that you aren't starting up an anti-WASP group while doing so. That's about the best analogy I can muster right now.

Condemning the Danish cartoons and being against free speech are two different things.

I can condemn the KKK without opposing their right to present their bigoted filth.

They condemn a cartoon that bashes them, but they promote cartoons that bash Israel, the U.S. and Christianity as if it's nothing. It may not be a direct assault on free speech, but it's a hypocritical double standard.

Ok, so what are you going to do? Hate them back? I agree inaction isn't the answer, but I disagree the answer lies in violence/armaments. I truly think what Israel/USA should do is make economically stabilising and developing the middle-east their number 1 priority (rather than the inverse). That way, in the short term you have the 'evil ones' winning support and debunking propaganda against them. Meanwhile, in the long term you have multiple nations of wealthy trading partners who are mostly educated. Educated rich people don't blow themselves up (well, rarely). The only way I see this happening is if USA withdraws support for Israel. That'll smarten them up pretty quick. Israel sans-USA will be much much more interested in making friends methinks.

Well put.

Ok, so what are you going to do? Hate them back? I agree inaction isn't the answer, but I disagree the answer lies in violence/armaments. I truly think what Israel/USA should do is make economically stabilising and developing the middle-east their number 1 priority (rather than the inverse). That way, in the short term you have the 'evil ones' winning support and debunking propaganda against them. Meanwhile, in the long term you have multiple nations of wealthy trading partners who are mostly educated. Educated rich people don't blow themselves up (well, rarely). The only way I see this happening is if USA withdraws support for Israel. That'll smarten them up pretty quick. Israel sans-USA will be much much more interested in making friends methinks.So your solution is to appease them and do exactly what they want.

Real smart :rolleyes:

I'm not saying that there should be violence over these cartoons. I'm just stating that the OIC is being very hipocritical here considering that they are much worse that the Danes they are condemning.

Heck, the Jews and Americans don't burn down mosques and embassies over these cartoons. Over 50 people died and many buildings were burned down over the dozen Danish cartoons.

Israel isn't the problem here. Wealth isn't either. The 9-11 hijackers all came from wealthy families, as does Osama.

Israel isn't the problem here. Wealth isn't either. The 9-11 hijackers all came from wealthy families, as does Osama.

That proves nothing, unless you wish to assert that the hijackers acted alone.

That proves nothing, unless you wish to assert that the hijackers acted alone.

It proves that wealth isn't the problem.

The problem here is that the people are taught from birth that they must be loyal to their Imams who fill them with hate and brainwash them.

The truly change things there, the people must become enlightened with knowledge.

What's with the kangeroo jew?

We need to have a contest to see who can come up with the best anti-Muslim-radical cartoon. Winner gets a hundred thousand bucks and their own TV show or something. That'll tell the wackos to piss off. Or maybe it won't, but it will show them that free speech is a two-way street.

Condemning the Danish cartoons and being against free speech are two different things.

I can condemn the KKK without opposing their right to present their bigoted filth.

Hear, hear!

*gives Soheran a special "Soheran Cookie"*

They have just as much a right to criticize the cartoons as the Danes have to draw them, Freedom of Speech does not ban criticism.

We need to have a contest to see who can come up with the best anti-Muslim-radical cartoon. Winner gets a hundred thousand bucks and their own TV show or something. That'll tell the wackos to piss off. Or maybe it won't, but it will show them that free speech is a two-way street.

If you produce such a cartoon, hundreds will die in the ensuing riots. It happened earlier this year.

The Jews responded by making their own anti-Jewish cartoons. It shouldn't be surprising that we'd answer back this way. After all, we invented self-depricating humor. Just see a Mel Brooks film or read about the stories of the fictional village of "Chelm."

"The inquisition's here and its here to stayyyyyy."

It's Hospiah the Kangajew as I remember it. Some hard right christian childrens website. possibly fake.

They have just as much a right to criticize the cartoons as the Danes have to make them, Freedom of Speech does not ban criticism.

You have no right to condemn such cartoons when you make tens of thousands of such cartoons a year.

It proves that wealth isn't the problem.

The problem here is that the people are taught from birth that they must be loyal to their Imams who fill them with hate and brainwash them.

If that were the case, there would be no al-Qaeda.

They are not exactly fond of the Saudi leadership.

You have no right to condemn such cartoons when you make tens of thousands of such cartoons a year.

Yes you do, but then other people have the right to point out the fact that your being a hypocritical moron.

Freedom of Speech does not ban hypocrisy.

If that were the case, there would be no al-Qaeda.

They are not exactly fond of the Saudi leadership.

Apparently you missed the CNN special on Madrassahs. The kids in those schools are brainwashed to hate the West.

So your solution is to appease them and do exactly what they want.

Real smart :rolleyes:
You think the muslim extremists hate jews because they think it will trick them into developing their countries economically? Who is the smart one?

I'm not saying that there should be violence over these cartoons. I'm just stating that the OIC is being very hipocritical here considering that they are much worse that the Danes they are condemning.

Heck, the Jews and Americans don't burn down mosques and embassies over these cartoons. Over 50 people died and many buildings were burned down over the dozen Danish cartoons. Well they wouldn't be an official body if they weren't hypocritical. At least we know they are actually jews posing as the OIC now.

I'm a little more interested in you and your ideas. If you don't want to fix the problem, because you perceive that would be 'letting them win', then what would you have?

Apparently you missed the CNN special on Madrassahs. The kids in those schools are brainwashed to hate the West.

Madrassahs are one of the results of a failure of governments to provide effective social infrastructure. The result is that religious organizations fill in the gap.

Edit: Apparently you missed (ignored, more precisely) the thrust of my argument.

You have no right to condemn such cartoons when you make tens of thousands of such cartoons a year.
Yes you do. Implicit in freedom of speech is the right to be hypocritical.

Yes you do. Implicit in freedom of speech is the right to be hypocritical.

Fine, then they should expect shit to be thrown their way from these Danish cartoonists.

I still bet that this recent round of cartoons will lead to more rioting.

You think the muslim extremists hate jews because they think it will trick them into developing their countries economically? Who is the smart one?

Well they wouldn't be an official body if they weren't hypocritical. At least we know they are actually jews posing as the OIC now.

I'm a little more interested in you and your ideas. If you don't want to fix the problem, because you perceive that would be 'letting them win', then what would you have?

Pulling support for Israel doesn't fix the problem. Even the suggestion of that idea proves how little you understand the Middle Eastern region. Pulling support for Israel leaves 6 million Jews vulnerable before a ruthless enemy that has been brainwashed with enough hate that a leader could convince them to commit genocide.

The cartoons and other propoganda are very powerful even with an educated population. Just look what Nazi propoganda did in the 1930s. They convinced the entire nation of Germany along with most of Eastern Europe that it was OK to kill Jews because they drank the blood of Christians or used it to make Matzah.

Pulling support for Israel doesn't fix the problem. Even the suggestion of that idea proves how little you understand the Middle Eastern region. Pulling support for Israel leaves 6 million Jews vulnerable before a ruthless enemy that has been brainwashed with enough hate that a leader could convince them to commit genocide.

Israel has nuclear weaponry, you know.

Fine, then they should expect shit to be thrown their way from these Danish cartoonists. Yes they should. Them and anyone else who doesn't like hypocrisy.

I still bet that this recent round of cartoons will lead to more rioting.
So what?

Pulling support for Israel doesn't fix the problem. Even the suggestion of that idea proves how little you understand the Middle Eastern region. Pulling support for Israel leaves 6 million Jews vulnerable before a ruthless enemy that has been brainwashed with enough hate that a leader could convince them to commit genocide.

I have faith in the IDF(that is, the REAL IDF, not you:p), they beat the shit out of every arab nation who has stepped up, and they'll continue to do so.

Israel has nuclear weaponry, you know.And if Iran gets their nukes, it won't mean a damn thing. We are dealing with a leader in Iran who believes that his messiah will be coming as soon as Israel is wiped off the face of the map. MAD doesn't work against people like that. It worked with the USSR because the Communists didn't believe in an afterlife. Once they died, that was it. Iran's president isn't that rational.

We should end all sales of military hardware to the Middle East, end all forms of aid to Israel and the Arab countries, recognize Israel AND Palestine, and wash our hands of the damned area.

Pulling support for Israel doesn't fix the problem. Even the suggestion of that idea proves how little you understand the Middle Eastern region. Pulling support for Israel leaves 6 million Jews vulnerable before a ruthless enemy that has been brainwashed with enough hate that a leader could convince them to commit genocide.

The cartoons and other propoganda are very powerful even with an educated population. Just look what Nazi propoganda did in the 1930s. They convinced the entire nation of Germany along with most of Eastern Europe that it was OK to kill Jews because they drank the blood of Christians or used it to make Matzah.
You didn't answer my main question. Leave my suggestion for now. What do you suggest? I want to better understand your motivations and ideas on the issue.

We should end all sales of military hardware to the Middle East, end all forms of aid to Israel and the Arab countries, recognize Israel AND Palestine, and wash our hands of the damned area.

That will still leave 6 million Jews vulnerable for Holocaust Part II.

And if Iran gets their nukes, it won't mean a damn thing. We are dealing with a leader in Iran who believes that his messiah will be coming as soon as Israel is wiped off the face of the map. MAD doesn't work against people like that. It worked with the USSR because the Communists didn't believe in an afterlife. Once they died, that was it. Iran's president isn't that rational.

The IAF will bomb Iran to hell before they allow Ahmadinejad to get nukes.

You didn't answer my main question. Leave my suggestion for now. What do you suggest? I want to better understand your motivations and ideas on the issue.

My suggestion would be to close down the Madrassahs.

I honestly think we need to get alternative energy sources. We need to open up a ton of nuke power plants and seriously begin to produce large amounts of E-85 Ethanol fuel.

Once we make the Middle East irrelevant, they won't have money to buy the arms.

That will still leave 6 million Jews vulnerable for Holocaust Part II.
Yeah and easily as many arabs. Why leave them out?

That will still leave 6 million Jews vulnerable for Holocaust Part II.

Israel has the best military and the best Air Force in the ME, they are hardly vulnerable. the Arabs could attack, but they would be killed.

That will still leave 6 million Jews vulnerable for Holocaust Part II.

Israel can and should defend itself.

The IAF will bomb Iran to hell before they allow Ahmadinejad to get nukes.

If Likud were in power, I'd agree with you. I don't think Olmert and his Labor-Kadima Coalition will do it. Besides, Iran learned the lesson from Osirak and has dispersed its facilities. It would take a full strike with ground troops to end the problem there.

And if Iran gets their nukes, it won't mean a damn thing. We are dealing with a leader in Iran who believes that his messiah will be coming as soon as Israel is wiped off the face of the map.

Sounds like baseless speculation to me.

MAD doesn't work against people like that.

There is no reason to suspect that the Iranian leadership - which includes more than Ahmadinejad - is particularly irrational; they are perfectly willing to trade with the West and China, despite any hostility, and their diplomacy, while duplicitous, is hardly based on religious fundamentalism.

Yeah and easily as many arabs. Why leave them out?

The Jews aren't the ones threatening genocide here. It would be Iran who is doing that.

My suggestion would be to close down the Madrassahs.

I honestly think we need to get alternative energy sources. We need to open up a ton of nuke power plants and seriously begin to produce large amounts of E-85 Ethanol fuel.

Once we make the Middle East irrelevant, they won't have money to buy the arms.
Ok but you will still have Israel in a region full of people who hate them. Now they will just be poorer people with even less to lose and greater contempt/jealousy for Israel. Plus they will have lost the only twisted form of education they have, leaving the crazed Imams as their only source of info. Try again. This can't be the exent of your thought on an area in which you exhibit such interest.

Sounds like baseless speculation to me.



There is no reason to suspect that the Iranian leadership - which includes more than Ahmadinejad - is particularly irrational; they are perfectly willing to trade with the West and China, despite any hostility, and their diplomacy, while duplicitous, is hardly based on religious fundamentalism.
It is not speculation. It is a fact that Ahmadinejad believes the 12th imam will show up once Israel is destroyed. He believes his nukes can do it.

The others in his government are the Ayatollahs. They are just as psychotic if not more so than him. They are far from rational.

It is not speculation. It is a fact that Ahmadinejad believes the 12th imam will show up once Israel is destroyed. He believes his nukes can do it.

The others in his government are the Ayatollahs. They are just as psychotic if not more so than him. They are far from rational.

The Iranian government may be insane, but they're not stupid.

Ok but you will still have Israel in a region full of people who hate them. Now they will just be poorer people with even less to lose and greater contempt/jealousy for Israel. Plus they will have lost the only twisted form of education they have, leaving the crazed Imams as their only source of info. Try again. This can't be the exent of your thought on an area in which you exhibit such interest.

If you want a true solution, it would be making every nation there secular. If I were to state how to do that, I'd be called a bigot. These people are being fed a hateful ideology and that is the problem.

Pulling support for Israel doesn't solve that problem. Giving them money won't solve it either. The governments are rich from oil. (That's one of the problems). I honestly don't know if there is a solution so long as these people are told to never question the Koran.

We're dealing with people who are dumber than the creationists. Reason won't work.

The Iranian government may be insane, but they're not stupid.
I wish that were true, but Ahmedinejad is insane.

The Jews aren't the ones threatening genocide here. It would be Iran who is doing that.
Are you saying that you think it wouldn't happen? Israel is just a little more prudent in what they say, and less in what they do (the rest of the ME is the reverse).

If you want a true solution, it would be making every nation there secular. If I were to state how to do that, I'd be called a bigot. These people are being fed a hateful ideology and that is the problem.

Pulling support for Israel doesn't solve that problem. Giving them money won't solve it either. The governments are rich from oil. (That's one of the problems). I honestly don't know if there is a solution so long as these people are told to never question the Koran.

We're dealing with people who are dumber than the creationists. Reason won't work. Please indulge your proposed method of secularising the ME. Everyone thinks you are a troll anyway, plus it is an anonymous forum. I wanna hear it. I can tell you, if it worked it would have to be the first time ever if it succeeded. I'll get to my suggestion in a moment. Stay on track.

The cartoons explain why they hate us. It's pretty easy to be brainwashed when you are taught at a young age that this is the truth. It's also easy to brainwash people when the majority of your people are uneducated.
At what age did you start to hate Islam?

It proves that wealth isn't the problem.

The problem here is that the people are taught from birth that they must be loyal to their Imams who fill them with hate and brainwash them.

The truly change things there, the people must become enlightened with knowledge.
At what age did you become "enlightened with knowledge"? Were you taught to love your neighbours?

After all, we invented self-depricating humor.
Yet, you don't seem to have any?

"The inquisition's here and its here to stayyyyyy."
What inquisition?

Please indulge your proposed method of secularising the ME. Everyone thinks you are a troll anyway, plus it is an anonymous forum. I wanna hear it. I can tell you, if it worked it would have to be the first time ever if it succeeded. I'll get to my suggestion in a moment. Stay on track.

I'll avoid your nice attempt at flamebait and answer your question.

You have to educate these people. Europe and the West advanced once they embraced science.

Just look at the number of Jewish Nobel prize winners and the number of Muslim ones. To advance the Islamic World, you have to have them embrace science and technology. The Jews and most Christians have done so. The result is that Israel, the US, Japan, and Western Europe are all economic powerhouses where major scientific breakthroughs are made daily.

Christianity used to be in the same boat that Islam is today. A period of enlightenment is what changed that. It was hard, most of the church was against the enlightenment. It took well over a century, but it worked. (We aren't done yet though, just travel to the south).

I know that this involves changing their culture, but its what has to be done.

Fine, then they should expect shit to be thrown their way from these Danish cartoonists.

I still bet that this recent round of cartoons will lead to more rioting.

I don't know... This time the danish government is communicating with the ambassadors of Islamic countries.

At what age did you start to hate Islam?

I don't hate Islam as a whole, but I do seem to hate what seems to be preached by most Imams in the Middle East.

After all, they are preaching the destruction of me and my family for being Jews. It seems like they've decided to copy the Nazis.

What inquisition?Go rent Mel Brooks's "History of the World: Part I."

At what age did you become "enlightened with knowledge"? Were you taught to love your neighbours?

The Muslims don't seem to be loving my people. I would be happy to love my neighbor. You really can't do so when your people are being threatened with extermination by your neighbors.

I'll avoid your nice attempt at flamebait and answer your question.
No flamebait intended, I am just condescending. It is my way. ;)

You have to educate these people. Europe and the West advanced once they embraced science.

Just look at the number of Jewish Nobel prize winners and the number of Muslim ones. To advance the Islamic World, you have to have them embrace science and technology. The Jews and most Christians have done so. The result is that Israel, the US, Japan, and Western Europe are all economic powerhouses where major scientific breakthroughs are made daily.

Christianity used to be in the same boat that Islam is today. A period of enlightenment is what changed that. It was hard, most of the church was against the enlightenment. It took well over a century, but it worked. (We aren't done yet though, just travel to the south).

I know that this involves changing their culture, but its what has to be done. I don't think that is bigoted. I like the idea, but you can't just stage a reformation of a philosophy. Well you can, but not so directly. You see, the western rennaissance/christian reformation didn't just happen. It was the economic circumstances which allowed/triggered it thus. Notice how both of the said events, plus the rise of Japan, China, India all happen right at the introduction of freemarket capitalism (even in it's earliest forms). This is basically due to the fact that Capitalism generates a lot of wealth, and wealth is the manifestation of power (in the capitalist system). In the generation of wealth in such a manner, two things happen. First of all, power goes from the upper class to the newly formed middle-class. Secondly the upperclass and middle class have a lot of money and spare time so they think, and write shit down.

Why would this be a good thing? Because then all of the Imams become a lot less relevant when you can have 3 square meals, a job, a family, and car. Furthermore, arabs don't hate jews, people with agendas convince arabs to hate jews. Humans are in nature somewhat altruistic, and naturally do not want to hurt each other unless they are told to. In order to suit their new life of consumerism and new found command over their own destiny, society will become much more moderate. Hmm, I'm ranting.

Basically, a reformation of Islam is possible, but it has to be initiated economically. To initiate it thus you will need a stable ME and lots of venture capitalists. Invest in their economic infrastructure. Then the people will get rich. Israel could have really good ME buddies in 20 years no sweat.

This, by the way, is why I was so pissed at Israel for bombing the shit out of Lebanon. I mean Lebanon was going to be your best friend in 5 years. Imagine, and Arab nation lobbying for Israels right to exist (or some solution). They were moderating, they were westernising, they were getting damn rich. They had a problem of the Hezbollah festering in their power structure, but bombing them wasn't the answer. They were pro-US man! All Israel had to do was petition US to help Lebanon lose Hezbollah, gradually, as the Lebanese cared less and less about Israel. Or just let them fade away. I swear they would have. But instead you made matyrs out of them. Damn you Israel, you blew one of the greatest oppurtunities in a long time for Arab acceptance of Israel. :headbang:

I don't hate Islam as a whole, but I do seem to hate what seems to be preached by most Imams in the Middle East.

After all, they are preaching the destruction of me and my family for being Jews. It seems like they've decided to copy the Nazis.
Yet you seem to tar all of Islam with the same brush? From your posts here on NS, it appears to me that you have a deep seated hatred towards Islam, and I suspect that is developed at an early age, just the same as you claim happens with young Islamic children.

I am sure indoctrination starts at an early age. Many people grow up with fears that were instilled in them by their parents.

Some people prefer to hold onto their grievances, while others are able to let them go through love and understanding. A peaceful process can take a very long time but someone has to initiate the process.

A resolution of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict could go a long way towards towards ensuring a peaceful co-existence. It doesn't appear that the resolve is there. Continued oppression of the Palestinians is not the answer. Nor is continued anti-Israel sentiment.

Looking down upon Palestinians as uneducated heathens, does not help build the bridges that are necessary. Earlier, you talked about science and technology as essential for growth, but they are useless as long as you cultivate the differences between you and your Islamic brothers and sisters.

People of different languages, religions, and cultures can and do co-exist peacefully and productively. Hate destroys it all.

This, by the way, is why I was so pissed at Israel for bombing the shit out of Lebanon. I mean Lebanon was going to be your best friend in 5 years. Imagine, and Arab nation lobbying for Israels right to exist (or some solution). They were moderating, they were westernising, they were getting damn rich. They had a problem of the Hezbollah festering in their power structure, but bombing them wasn't the answer. They were pro-US man! All Israel had to do was petition US to help Lebanon lose Hezbollah, gradually, as the Lebanese cared less and less about Israel. Or just let them fade away. I swear they would have. But instead you made matyrs out of them. Damn you Israel, you blew one of the greatest oppurtunities in a long time for Arab acceptance of Israel. :headbang:

Completely off topic, but what a post. I take my hat off to you, sir.

No flamebait intended, I am just condescending. It is my way. ;)

I don't think that is bigoted. I like the idea, but you can't just stage a reformation of a philosophy. Well you can, but not so directly. You see, the western rennaissance/christian reformation didn't just happen. It was the economic circumstances which allowed/triggered it thus. Notice how both of the said events, plus the rise of Japan, China, India all happen right at the introduction of freemarket capitalism (even in it's earliest forms). This is basically due to the fact that Capitalism generates a lot of wealth, and wealth is the manifestation of power (in the capitalist system). In the generation of wealth in such a manner, two things happen. First of all, power goes from the upper class to the newly formed middle-class. Secondly the upperclass and middle class have a lot of money and spare time so they think, and write shit down.

Why would this be a good thing? Because then all of the Imams become a lot less relevant when you can have 3 square meals, a job, a family, and car. Furthermore, arabs don't hate jews, people with agendas convince arabs to hate jews. Humans are in nature somewhat altruistic, and naturally do not want to hurt each other unless they are told to. In order to suit their new life of consumerism and new found command over their own destiny, society will become much more moderate. Hmm, I'm ranting.

Basically, a reformation of Islam is possible, but it has to be initiated economically. To initiate it thus you will need a stable ME and lots of venture capitalists. Invest in their economic infrastructure. Then the people will get rich. Israel could have really good ME buddies in 20 years no sweat.
Good stuff!! I am with you all the way on that one!! :)

Good stuff!! I am with you all the way on that one!! :)

Ditto.

The Muslims don't seem to be loving my people. I would be happy to love my neighbor. You really can't do so when your people are being threatened with extermination by your neighbors.
If you would "be happy to love your neighbor, then you could be part of the solution by stop spreading the hate? Just my take on it.

Thanks guys. Unfortunately it took me until now to polish that stance for the forums. Y'know now that Israel is old news. :p It is always like that. By the time I save up and get the best yoyo, the yoyo fad is over. :(

Thanks guys. Unfortunately it took me until now to polish that stance for the forums. Y'know now that Israel is old news. :p It is always like that. By the time I save up and get the best yoyo, the yoyo fad is over. :(

It wouldn't be NationStates without the skeletons in the closet and digging up the dirt.:D

The cartoons explain why they hate us. It's pretty easy to be brainwashed when you are taught at a young age that this is the truth. It's also easy to brainwash people when the majority of your people are uneducated.

The same could be said of any side, in any dispute. How then do you set yourself apart from those you seek to vilify?

This, by the way, is why I was so pissed at Israel for bombing the shit out of Lebanon. I mean Lebanon was going to be your best friend in 5 years. Imagine, and Arab nation lobbying for Israels right to exist (or some solution). They were moderating, they were westernising, they were getting damn rich. They had a problem of the Hezbollah festering in their power structure, but bombing them wasn't the answer. They were pro-US man! All Israel had to do was petition US to help Lebanon lose Hezbollah, gradually, as the Lebanese cared less and less about Israel. Or just let them fade away. I swear they would have. But instead you made matyrs out of them. Damn you Israel, you blew one of the greatest oppurtunities in a long time for Arab acceptance of Israel. :headbang:
Story of the middle east: They're all their own worst enemies.

(In a way, I feel this is true...)

Condemning the Danish cartoons and being against free speech are two different things.

I can condemn the KKK without opposing their right to present their bigoted filth.

This was about neither the Danish cartoons nor the KKK. Interesting that you brought them up.

The cartoons explain why they hate us. It's pretty easy to be brainwashed when you are taught at a young age that this is the truth. It's also easy to brainwash people when the majority of your people are uneducated.That's truer than you believe...

Ok, so what are you going to do? Hate them back? I agree inaction isn't the answer, but I disagree the answer lies in violence/armaments. I truly think what Israel/USA should do is make economically stabilising and developing the middle-east their number 1 priority (rather than the inverse). That way, in the short term you have the 'evil ones' winning support and debunking propaganda against them. Meanwhile, in the long term you have multiple nations of wealthy trading partners who are mostly educated. Educated rich people don't blow themselves up (well, rarely). The only way I see this happening is if USA withdraws support for Israel. That'll smarten them up pretty quick. Israel sans-USA will be much much more interested in making friends methinks.

Careful ... your nievete is showing. :rolleyes:

Yet you seem to tar all of Islam with the same brush? From your posts here on NS, it appears to me that you have a deep seated hatred towards Islam, and I suspect that is developed at an early age, just the same as you claim happens with young Islamic children.

I am sure indoctrination starts at an early age. Many people grow up with fears that were instilled in them by their parents.

Some people prefer to hold onto their grievances, while others are able to let them go through love and understanding. A peaceful process can take a very long time but someone has to initiate the process.

A resolution of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict could go a long way towards towards ensuring a peaceful co-existence. It doesn't appear that the resolve is there. Continued oppression of the Palestinians is not the answer. Nor is continued anti-Israel sentiment.

Looking down upon Palestinians as uneducated heathens, does not help build the bridges that are necessary. Earlier, you talked about science and technology as essential for growth, but they are useless as long as you cultivate the differences between you and your Islamic brothers and sisters.

People of different languages, religions, and cultures can and do co-exist peacefully and productively. Hate destroys it all.

You said a mouthful, Chuck! :D

Excellent post!

This was about neither the Danish cartoons nor the KKK. Interesting that you brought them up.

Um... Are we in the same thread? The OP is referring to the Organization of the Islamic Conference condemming the (new) Danish cartoons.

Careful ... your nievete is showing. :rolleyes: I spent a lot of time on this stance. I saw it to be the most rational one available. If you think it is nieve, please elaborate, as I would be happy to change it for a more insightful/realistic one.

You said a mouthful, Chuck! :D

Excellent post!
Thank you very much. :)

Thank you very much. :)

You're welcome.

Oh, and I call everyone "Chuck" who has "Canuck" in their name. Just a habit. :p

I spent a lot of time on this stance. I saw it to be the most rational one available. If you think it is nieve, please elaborate, as I would be happy to change it for a more insightful/realistic one.
I didn't see it as naive at all. Perhaps Eut will explain why he feels that it is "naive"?

I didn't see it as naive at all. Perhaps Eut will explain why he feels that it is "naive"?
I think he was just dropping in to reinforce his stereotype as the 'overly cynical old man', so he can start a new thread on how wrong it is to stereotype him :p Self-fulfilling prophesies are funny like that!

The only way I see this happening is if USA withdraws support for Israel. That'll smarten them up pretty quick. Israel sans-USA will be much much more interested in making friends methinks. It's too late for that... They'll just realized that what they did worked and they will do more things next time.
(Hey if we can get the US to leave Israel maybe we can get them to leave Southeastasia, if we can get them to leave southeast asia maybe we can make them leave Europe? etc etc)

Appeasment never works on idiots.

Those hypocritical idiots deserve nothing.

I spent a lot of time on this stance. I saw it to be the most rational one available. If you think it is nieve, please elaborate, as I would be happy to change it for a more insightful/realistic one.
The nievete is that you are thinking Logical... Religious Fanatics are not logical, they could all be starving and yet they would still not change their ways.

Repeat after me: Their actions and behaviors are not logical. Therefore logical ideas like helping their economy is completely useless.

Oh and if someone started a reformation? The Government and mullahs would just execute them, perhaps their family also. It's hard to have a reform when the Inquestion is so effective.

In my opinion the Middle East is too far gone. They had hundreds of years to get stuck in this rut, we aren't going to be able to force them to change. They will continue to think they're better than everyone else and condemn anyone who doesn't agree with them.

I think he was just dropping in to reinforce his stereotype as the 'overly cynical old man', so he can start a new thread on how wrong it is to stereotype him :p Self-fulfilling prophesies are funny like that!
:D

*laughing here

It's too late for that... They'll just realized that what they did worked and they will do more things next time.
(Hey if we can get the US to leave Israel maybe we can get them to leave Southeastasia, if we can get them to leave southeast asia maybe we can make them leave Europe? etc etc)

Appeasment never works on idiots.

Those hypocritical idiots deserve nothing.
Who is appeasing? They want the destruction of Israel, we should give them a robust economy and political apathy to match!

Who is appeasing? They want the destruction of Israel, we should give them a robust economy and political apathy to match!
Which they will also use to destroy Israel.
It's a mission from god to destroy Israel.
And when they destroy Israel... Israel will destroy them all.

Wait nevermind, problem solved then. (If you don't mind outright Nuclear Genocide ):(

*snip*

The nievete is that you are thinking Logical... Religious Fanatics are not logical, they could all be starving and yet they would still not change their ways.

Repeat after me: Their actions and behaviors are not logical. Therefore logical ideas like helping their economy is completely useless.

Oh and if someone started a reformation? The Government and mullahs would just execute them, perhaps their family also. It's hard to have a reform when the Inquestion is so effective.
Bah, they are just hungry and poor. Rousing starving peasants is like shooting fish in a barrel. Seriously, if you can sneak a half decent economy in it will undermine the power of the ayotallahs/mullahs/Imams, ect.. Best example I can think of of the hip is China. FO the last half-century htey have been executing people for even considering underming the power of the CCP. Then they let a bit of the capitalist action in on Shanghai and Guangzhou, then Beijing, now most of the coast. The joke is that while the get richer and gain money-power, so do their people (Much faster than them too). Already the CCP doesn't have the iron grip it used to.I expect to see them fully moderate or disappear altogether. Plus, when it began the Chinese were all nuts about Communism, which is not unlike Islam in that it is a BS ideaology. I think it'd work fine.

btw Chelm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelm) is certainly not a fictional place.

Condemning the Danish cartoons and being against free speech are two different things.

I can condemn the KKK without opposing their right to present their bigoted filth.
You can't compare them. The KKK were despicable scum that denied humans their basic rights. The Danish cartoons were at best a breath of fresh air, at worst a minor annoyance.

I spent a lot of time on this stance. I saw it to be the most rational one available. If you think it is nieve, please elaborate, as I would be happy to change it for a more insightful/realistic one.

Expect to wait a long time for a reasoned response, GPN.

It proves that wealth isn't the problem.

The problem here is that the people are taught from birth that they must be loyal to their Imams who fill them with hate and brainwash them.

The truly change things there, the people must become enlightened with knowledge.

Isnt the position of imam only significant in minority shia Islam?

The Muslims don't seem to be loving my people. I would be happy to love my neighbor. You really can't do so when your people are being threatened with extermination by your neighbors.

They might be the worst pack of bastards on green earth. And it still won't justify a first world power beating the shit out of Palestinians in the occupied territories. Theres no high horse for Israel while theres a settlement outside Israels borders. Go "play" with Iran, and leave the Palestinians be.

Which they will also use to destroy Israel.
It's a mission from god to destroy Israel.
And when they destroy Israel... Israel will destroy them all.

Wait nevermind, problem solved then. (If you don't mind outright Nuclear Genocide ):( "Hey you! You there in the SUV. Israel is the root of all evil, lets destroy them!"
"Meh"
"Aren't you muslim?! Whats wrong with you?"
*Flashy new mobile phone rings- it's his boss, the Israel deal came through and he gets the bonus*
"Hold on I need to make a call"
*Calls his wife*
"Honey the Israel deal came through! I was thinking, maybe we can afford a child"
"Hey! C'mon Jihad! You know. Destruction of the Zionsits. I would threaten you but my ruthless power has been undermined by the economy and doing so would curtail my increasing money-power, which is in effect ending my iron fist"

*Looks at him for a second...hands him tax return*


You get the picture. Poor people are easy to radicalise. Give them something to live for and they will lose interest in throwing away *everything* for some BS ideal. It's easy when your everything is nothing, and the subsequent nothing is everything.

No flamebait intended, I am just condescending. It is my way. ;)

I don't think that is bigoted. I like the idea, but you can't just stage a reformation of a philosophy. Well you can, but not so directly. You see, the western rennaissance/christian reformation didn't just happen. It was the economic circumstances which allowed/triggered it thus. Notice how both of the said events, plus the rise of Japan, China, India all happen right at the introduction of freemarket capitalism (even in it's earliest forms). This is basically due to the fact that Capitalism generates a lot of wealth, and wealth is the manifestation of power (in the capitalist system). In the generation of wealth in such a manner, two things happen. First of all, power goes from the upper class to the newly formed middle-class. Secondly the upperclass and middle class have a lot of money and spare time so they think, and write shit down.

Why would this be a good thing? Because then all of the Imams become a lot less relevant when you can have 3 square meals, a job, a family, and car. Furthermore, arabs don't hate jews, people with agendas convince arabs to hate jews. Humans are in nature somewhat altruistic, and naturally do not want to hurt each other unless they are told to. In order to suit their new life of consumerism and new found command over their own destiny, society will become much more moderate. Hmm, I'm ranting.

Basically, a reformation of Islam is possible, but it has to be initiated economically. To initiate it thus you will need a stable ME and lots of venture capitalists. Invest in their economic infrastructure. Then the people will get rich. Israel could have really good ME buddies in 20 years no sweat.

If you study history, you will see wealth had nothing to do with it. The people for the most part were still very poor when it happened. I don't think you can really say there was a rise of a true middle class until about 200 years after the Rennasaince (sp). What started it was the printing press. The printing press allowed the people to read the work of Greek philosophers. They had something other than the Bible to read.

Unfortunately, people in the Middle East seem to still be stuck with only the Koran. What other material they read is filth put out by their governments or vile material like "Protocols of the Elders of Zion."

The people in the Middle East need to truly read the great philosophical works that brought enlightenment to the West and encouraged free thinking.

If you would "be happy to love your neighbor, then you could be part of the solution by stop spreading the hate? Just my take on it.

You can love your neighbor all you want, but when he opens fire on you, you have to open up a can of whoop ass.

Lots of people have double standards, especially ignorant ones. It's something you have to learn to accept about people.
You can love your neighbor all you want, but when he opens fire on you, you have to open up a can of whoop ass.
Well, you're certainly a manly man aren't you?