NationStates Jolt Archive

Well this is going to go down like explosive diarrhoea in a spacesuit.

Linkey (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2395178,00.html)

What do people propose if this becombes a trend for male terrorists and terrorist suspects?

What should police do if they recieve information a terrorist they have a warrent to arrest is disguising himself using a Burqua?

What should they do if they also suspect he may be armed?

Should police start grabbing people in Burqas without warning? Or should they approach them and ask politely for them to remove their veil knowing that if it is the suspect they could start getting shot at?

Or should we just ignore this until it becomes an issue?

Moths! Big giant moths!

politicians in power will ignore it as much as possible untill it comes to a head, like they do for all issues which are difficult to handle. Then they will massively over-react and piss-off everyone.

For security reasons, i.e. at airports, banks etc they should get a female staff member to confirm the identity of the person with the veil then carry on as usual.

As an aside:
For Jack Straw's stance I can understand his view point as it is easier to communicate if you can see someones face and in our culture it is showing respect and politness if someone is not hiding their face when talking to you. For me I would be polite and just respect their wish to wear the veil and not ask them to remove it. Though if they then wish to show respect and politness towards my culture in return by removing the veil when talking face-to-face with me then I will try to be that much more helpful/responsive during th converation.

Trilby63;11782013']Moths! Big giant moths!

You win the thread.

Trilby63;11782013']Moths! Big giant moths!

So that would be "just ignore this until it becomes an issue"?

common sense?

if in airports - ask for person to step into the private booths to verify the person - they need this anyway to check passports. so this isn't even a problem.

the irish used balaclava's and we didn't ban them.

this is another example of the media depicting muslims as evil. give it a rest!

common sense?

if in airports - ask for person to step into the private booths to verify the person - they need this anyway to check passports. so this isn't even a problem.


I meant if people wanted for crimes - particulary violent crimes like terrorism (not even islamic terrorists... anyone could get one of these things to travel incognito) start to use this as a method to evade capture.

Do you wait until they guy goes into an airport until you can find him?

If you know a dangerous criminal is doing this what should the police be able to do to catch them?

If they suspect the criminal is armed then how should they approach someone in a burqua who they have no idea could or could not be the man they seek?

I second common sense. Approach them and ask politely for them to remove their veil, and be ready to defend yourself in case it's the person you're looking for.

If they suspect the criminal is armed then how should they approach someone in a burqua who they have no idea could or could not be the man they seek?
Easy: Simply prepare for a conflict and approach. If it's not the one you're looking for, nothing will happen. If it is the person you're looking for, and he starts shooting, you know where he is now. ;)

I second common sense. Approach them and ask politely for them to remove their veil, and be ready to defend yourself in case it's the person you're looking for.

So... you're a armed cop in a street in Bradford and you know an armed terrorist is disguised like this.

Do you and your squad start approaching every burqua wearing individual of about the right height with your guns pointed at them and then politely ask them to remove the veil at gunpoint?

To stop the guy seeing you doing this to others (if he's not the first one you get) and realising you;re looking for him and just running off do you cordon off the area?

Or how do you propose a cop can safely approach someone who may be armed with a deadly weapon and be able to defend themselves without doing so in a way that would give an incredible photo-op for the newspapers of police holding women in burquas at gunpoint while they demand they remove the mask (like - what if the terrorist refuses to unmask? what if an innocent woman refuses to unmask? or talk?)

So... you're a armed cop in a street in Bradford and you know an armed terrorist is disguised like this.
Okay...

Do you and your squad start approaching every burqua wearing individual of about the right height with your guns pointed at them and then politely ask them to remove the veil at gunpoint?
No, because then it's not polite. Sure, I guess the gun can be visible, but I don't see how it's necessary to go overboard like that.

To stop the guy seeing you doing this to others (if he's not the first one you get) and realising you;re looking for him and just running off do you cordon off the area?
I don't see anything wrong with cordoning off the area.

Or how do you propose a cop can safely approach someone who may be armed with a deadly weapon and be able to defend themselves without doing so in a way that would give an incredible photo-op for the newspapers of police holding women in burquas at gunpoint while they demand they remove the mask
By not doing it at gunpoint.

(like - what if the terrorist refuses to unmask? what if an innocent woman refuses to unmask? or talk?)
That, I'll probably have to give some thought to. It's really late at night in my part of the world.

No, because then it's not polite. Sure, I guess the gun can be visible, but I don't see how it's necessary to go overboard like that.
I was just thinking if the guy has a gun then it might be a bit safer for the cop if when you finally guess which person is the terrorist. If he has a gun do you really want him (or her) to be in a decent position to do a quick draw and put some holes in a policeman?


I don't see anything wrong with cordoning off the area.

I'm imagining a photo on the front page of the Guardian showing (most likely armed) police barricading a large number of (most likely very angry) muslims in a small area while more (most likely armed) police approach women and demand they remove their burquas. Then it turns out the guy they were looking for was not in the street in question.

Then the next day a photo on the front page of the Daily Mail/Wail showing a large number of young muslims expressing their opinion of muslim women being rounded up and searched by armed police in a frank and open manner.

If you see a 6'4 person with hairy feet wearing a burqa, chances are good they're not who they appear to be.

If you see a 6'4 person with hairy feet wearing a burqa, chances are good they're not who they appear to be.

Which is why I said:

Do you and your squad start approaching every burqua wearing individual of about the right height


But you run in to a hell of a lot of trouble if they happen to be 5'8" and wearing shoes...

Or is terrorism limited to people well above average height for both men and women?

Or is terrorism limited to people well above average height for both men and women?

I find terrorism is limited to the imaginations of Americans ... specifically old white ones. We can rest assured that if it's "terrorism", they'll be more than happy to point it out to us.

Oh, and no, I do not believe in racial profiling or in the rounding up of women "just in case".

I find the whole thing distasteful.

I find terrorism is limited to the imaginations of Americans ...

Oh, and no, I do not believe in racial profiling or in the rounding up of women "just in case".

I find the whole thing distasteful.
It's not like the IRA were terrorists or anything...
And I guess as a Londoner I imagined those tube trains being blown up? Or was that not terrorism?

Now - back to the origional question - how do you propose finding a terrorist suspect if he (or she) has decided to wear a burqa for concealment?

And I guess as a Londoner I imagined those tube trains being blown up? Or was that not terrorism?

Isolated incident. More people are killed annually by donkeys.

Now - back to the origional question - how do you propose finding a terrorist suspect if he (or she) has decided to wear a burqa for concealment?

I don't. I honestly couldn't possibly care less.

There is no more a 'veil debate' than there is a 'red t-shirt' debate. Its simply a case of panicky and ignorant people trying to enforce their will on others.

Terrorists might dress as Muslim women, eh? In today's climate that would make them much more suspicious than if they were dressed (like the 7/7 bombers) in Western attire.

Isolated incident. More people are killed annually by donkeys.
It was not terrorism?

Were the 11/03/04 isolated?
Were the 11/07/06 Mumbai Train bombings isolated?

Were each and every IRA bombing and action isolated?

Not sure how it's gonna pan out - but were those guys with the planes recently also an isolated incident?

It's not as though this method would be limited to muslims, or even terrorists. There's nothing to stop a much more common murderer (muslim or not) from adopting this disguise


I don't. I honestly couldn't possibly care less.

You don't care if a terrorist/murderer evades capture?

common sense?

if in airports - ask for person to step into the private booths to verify the person - they need this anyway to check passports. so this isn't even a problem.

the irish used balaclava's and we didn't ban them.

this is another example of the media depicting muslims as evil. give it a rest!

My wife and meself was talking about this the other day, she told me that she is geting fed up with all the Muslim bashin,g and how can people think like that. Well i love her loads but I had to laff and suggest that perhaps darling it is not 'people' thinking like that but perhaps just the dumb fucked up media pulling their old tricks(although why they would like to saw distrust is absolutly beyhond my ken?)

It was not terrorism?

In a way, I suppose, if it makes you afraid. I'm not afraid.

You don't care if a terrorist/murderer evades capture?

Not really, nope. I feel we have better things to do with our time and money.

Terrorists might dress as Muslim women, eh? In today's climate that would make them much more suspicious than if they were dressed (like the 7/7 bombers) in Western attire.

Well - before they commit an action it might be useful to be another face in the crowd... After it might be more useful to be able to move through the crowd without having to show your face and in such a way that it is very very very difficult for the police to even ask to see your face without the risk of a major incident if they ask the wrong person.

Not really, nope. I feel we have better things to do with our time and money
Well... If you don't care if wanted terrorists, murderers and presumeably rapists or child molesters and other such criminal elements evade capture then I really don't know what to say.

Well... If you don't care if wanted terrorists, murderers and presumeably rapists or child molesters and other such criminal elements evade capture then I really don't know what to say.

Fascinating that your list keeps getting longer.

"Do you care if a terrorist is caught?"
"Not really."
"So you don't care if child molestors go free!"

Strange debate tactic, but suit yourself.

Fascinating that your list keeps getting longer.

"Do you care if a terrorist is caught?"
"Not really."
"So you don't care if child molestors go free!"

Strange debate tactic, but suit yourself.

Well - I mentioned murderers earlier, though not in the first post - which was in response to a specific case. And I choose that group as a killer is probably most likely out of the lot to be prepared to kill again, and could well be armed.

It was after making it that it occured to me that really this method of evasion is quite open to anyone. Really the list of criminals who could use this is much much longer than the list I gave.

Personally I think "I don't care if terrorists or murderers go free" is a bit of an odd view - and you can suit yourself too. I was very surprised at your view on not bothering to catch terrorists or murderers am intersted in what extent you think it does not matter if the police are able to track down a criminal or not - which is partly why I expanded the list.

Well - I mentioned murderers earlier, though not in the first post - which was in response to a specific case. And I choose that group as a killer is probably most likely out of the lot to be prepared to kill again, and could well be armed.

It was after making it that it occured to me that really this method of evasion is quite open to anyone. Really the list of criminals who could use this is much much longer than the list I gave.

Personally I think "I don't care if terrorists or murderers go free" is a bit of an odd view - and you can suit yourself too. I was very surprised at your view on not bothering to catch terrorists or murderers am intersted in what extent you think it does not matter if the police are able to track down a criminal or not - which is partly why I expanded the list.


Personally I thought bank robbers would be able to make the best use. Walk into a bank hold it up and have no one seeing your face. They wouldn't even have to do the traditional 'pull stockings over face' as they would already be covered up. Also when they escape they can ditch the veil and force the police to have a PR disaster.

geez what if he put on a fake eyeglasses, nose and moustache? maybe everyone with big noses should be detained!

what if he shaved his legs, plucked his eyebrows put on a wig and dressed in drag? maybe we should be pulling every womans hair, just in case!

what if he had put on a cassock? maybe we should be checking out any priests caught out in public!

bad guys disguise themselves. that doesnt mean that everyone dressed conservatively is a bad guy. maybe your police should get some training to recognize how a woman in a burqa walks differently than a man in a burqua. maybe even try TALKING to a woman in a burqa to see if she sounds like a man. maybe now that they know that it can happen, they will be more alert to it so it needs no extra measures.

its hard for men to walk like women. it takes practice. you cant just toss on a burqa and pass.

not that im saying that all women in burqas should be stopped and questioned. that would be police harrassment. but if its necessary, you can have a police woman take her aside and look at her.

are people allowed to refuse to speak to police in the UK?

are there so many burqa wearing women in the UK?

are there so many burqa wearing women in the UK?

In certain neighbourhoods in a few of the cities the number is quite high but as a whole in the UK, no.

Well - before they commit an action it might be useful to be another face in the crowd... After it might be more useful to be able to move through the crowd without having to show your face and in such a way that it is very very very difficult for the police to even ask to see your face without the risk of a major incident if they ask the wrong person.

After they commit the action? I thought we were primarily dealing with suicide bombers. The state of modern terrorism is not condusive to people walking away from attacks.

Well this is going to go down like explosive diarrhoea in a spacesuit.

Linkey (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2395178,00.html)

What do people propose if this becombes a trend for male terrorists and terrorist suspects?

What should police do if they recieve information a terrorist they have a warrent to arrest is disguising himself using a Burqua?

What should they do if they also suspect he may be armed?

Should police start grabbing people in Burqas without warning? Or should they approach them and ask politely for them to remove their veil knowing that if it is the suspect they could start getting shot at?

Or should we just ignore this until it becomes an issue?

This guy sounds pretty smart:
Shahid Malik, Labour MP for Dewsbury, expressed concern that the issue could create unnecessary tension. “If this is true, then it is the first case of its kind in Britain and an isolated incident. We must not get hysterical about it. There have been many hundreds of cases where robberies have been committed by men wearing women’s stockings on their heads — but no one is talking about banning stockings.

“The important thing is that the police and the security services should feel comfortable and confident about stopping anyone who they have suspicions about, whatever they are wearing.”

Trilby63;11782013']Moths! Big giant moths!

ROFLMAO!

God isn't real.

Please join us in the 21st century.

This guy sounds pretty smart:

It is a very reasonable statement, and it is the first time this has happened here.

My concern is what happens if it becomes more widespread?

What if terrorists actually start using this tatic with the intent of forcing police to unmask women as a way to generate a rallying call?

While is it would be ideal if police could approach them, and ask/tell them to remove their veil if they are not satisified with a verbal response I can't see it going down well.

Somehow I have a feeling that more radical elements will gleefully exploit any police attempts to force a woman to remove a burqa on the accusation of terrorist involvement for identification purposes. And given precautions needed if it is indeed a terrorist they are stopping then it could be a very ugly scene indeed.

there was a terrorist who escaped by changing his coat and putting on a hat.

do we ban jackets and caps?

It is a very reasonable statement, and it is the first time this has happened here.

My concern is what happens if it becomes more widespread?

What if terrorists actually start using this tatic with the intent of forcing police to unmask women as a way to generate a rallying call?

While is it would be ideal if police could approach them, and ask/tell them to remove their veil if they are not satisified with a verbal response I can't see it going down well.

Somehow I have a feeling that more radical elements will gleefully exploit any police attempts to force a woman to remove a burqa on the accusation of terrorist involvement for identification purposes. And given precautions needed if it is indeed a terrorist they are stopping then it could be a very ugly scene indeed.

As long as (a) some incident prompts the police to be looking for someone who might be disguised in a burqua and (b) all efforts are made to ensure that female officers are the ones who have those in burquas reveal their faces, I see no problems occurring.

No extra precautions are needed just because the possible terrorist is wearing a burqua. If police have a description of a criminal in a hoodie, they don't start accosting everyone with a hoodie on with weapons drawn and ready to shoot. They walk up to those in hoodies and ask them to remove it/get searched/etc., etc., with the knowledge that they *might* have to draw their weapons.

So... you're a armed cop in a street in Bradford and you know an armed terrorist is disguised like this.

Do you and your squad start approaching every burqua wearing individual of about the right height with your guns pointed at them and then politely ask them to remove the veil at gunpoint?

To stop the guy seeing you doing this to others (if he's not the first one you get) and realising you;re looking for him and just running off do you cordon off the area?

Or how do you propose a cop can safely approach someone who may be armed with a deadly weapon and be able to defend themselves without doing so in a way that would give an incredible photo-op for the newspapers of police holding women in burquas at gunpoint while they demand they remove the mask (like - what if the terrorist refuses to unmask? what if an innocent woman refuses to unmask? or talk?)
A) Do UK cops normally approach people on the street with guns drawn? How do UK cops manage to search an area where a non-Muslim suspect is believed to be hiding? Why can't they just use the same tactics for a Muslim suspect?

B) As for burqa wearers who refuse to unveil or speak to strange men -- you don't have women police officers in the UK?

I know it's only 3 pages, but are we ready to conclude that this is a non-issue? The tactics for searching a crowd for a suspect are set, and there are plenty of female officers who can search/identify Muslim female suspects. I fail to see the problem.

Maybe it has to do with trying to justify the hundreds of millions of pounds the British government has spent on all those security cameras without ever thinking beforehand, "wait, what if people cover their faces..."

A) Do UK cops normally approach people on the street with guns drawn? How do UK cops manage to search an area where a non-Muslim suspect is believed to be hiding? Why can't they just use the same tactics for a Muslim suspect?
In terrorist suspect cases that seems to be the case.

'course they've screwed the pooch the last couple of times...

So that would be "just ignore this until it becomes an issue"?

No....because with giant moths you get Godzilla, and thats when the real issue gets decided....

This guy sounds pretty smart:

Shahid Malik is a douchebag. Do not trust a word he says. He sets off every single alarm in my skull.

A) Do UK cops normally approach people on the street with guns drawn? How do UK cops manage to search an area where a non-Muslim suspect is believed to be hiding? Why can't they just use the same tactics for a Muslim suspect?

B) As for burqa wearers who refuse to unveil or speak to strange men -- you don't have women police officers in the UK?

A) No they do not. In the UK we generally believe that guns are bad (mmmkay), and we extend that the police force as well. Only a specialised armed squad in each force is allowed to use guns.

B) Yeah we do. Although I don't so much see what that would make a woman who wishes to keep her face private reveal it.

B) Yeah we do. Although I don't so much see what that would make a woman who wishes to keep her face private reveal it.

Much like women throughout typical Western society, conservative Muslim women are generally willing to preserve less modesty in front of another woman than in front of a man. Even in those places where Shariah law demands that women cover their faces, they are allowed to reveal them to other women.

I used to hide pot in a fake shaving cream can. I hope the terrorists don't get their hands on one of those.

A) No they do not. In the UK we generally believe that guns are bad (mmmkay), and we extend that the police force as well. Only a specialised armed squad in each force is allowed to use guns.
Well, then that puts paid to Free Randomer's worry about unfortunate "photo ops." It is unlikely that the media will be filled with pictures of cops pointing guns at veiled ladies.

B) Yeah we do. Although I don't so much see what that would make a woman who wishes to keep her face private reveal it.
The veil is to keep women from being looked at by strange men. They should not have a major problem showing themselves to women so long as they don't have to do it on the open street, surrounded by men. After all, they go to women doctors.