NationStates Jolt Archive

Ten minutes ago, South Korea claimed that North Korea has tested its first nuclear weapon.

How will this effect the world?


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15190745/

How will this effect the world?


it won't.

Ten minutes ago, South Korea claimed that North Korea has tested its first nuclear weapon.

How will this effect the world?


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15190745/

Well, I don't think it'll effect it that much. There may be an invasion of N Korea though by the South Koreans and the Chinese (Who will be thoroughly pissed at Kim Jung Ill)

The networks are just breaking the news, so details are sketchy, but it's true: North Korea has conducted its first nuclear test.

Well, at least we can rest assured that we prevented Iraq from having the Bomb... :rolleyes:

Well, there's an OPLAN for this, that was exercised out of Seymour-Johnson AFB four or five times during the Clinton Admin. It involves nuking the shit out of North Korea.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=502477

beat ya to it:p

I smell bush saying that N. Korea is in ties with Al qaeda and the now have nukes and we are going to go fight them now...

Well, there's an OPLAN for this, that was exercised out of Seymour-Johnson AFB four or five times during the Clinton Admin. It involves nuking the shit out of North Korea.

Not a chance in hell. We can take them conventionally, and nuking them would just make us look bad.

Oh, fuck my ass.:headbang:

Oh man......

Curse my slow fingers!

I smell bush saying that N. Korea is in ties with Al qaeda and the now have nukes and we are going to go fight them now...

Wouldn't shock me one bit. That would be a mistake though, we're spread thin as it is...

Well, there's an OPLAN for this, that was exercised out of Seymour-Johnson AFB four or five times during the Clinton Admin. It involves nuking the shit out of North Korea.

Aw, HELL NO!!!

Like I said in the other thread, "Oh, fuck my ass:headbang: "

Well, there's an OPLAN for this, that was exercised out of Seymour-Johnson AFB four or five times during the Clinton Admin. It involves nuking the shit out of North Korea.

When did Clinton Nuke anyone?

When did Clinton Nuke anyone?

He didn't. But he ordered the USAF to come up with a plan to nuke North Korea, and they practiced the plan several times.

It's mostly F-15E Strike Eagles flying into North Korea, and dropping 40 or so B-61 thermonuclear devices on North Korea.

September/October 2002 pp. 54-59 (vol. 58, No. 5) © 2004 Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists



outh Korean President Kim Dae Jung and President Bill Clinton met at the White House in June 1998 to discuss "new approaches" toward North Korea and "peace and stability on the peninsula." Just days before, a squadron of U.S. F-15E fighter bombers had taken off from Seymour Johnson Air Force Base in North Carolina on course for the Avon Park Bombing Range in Florida. Their mission: to simulate a long-range nuclear strike against North Korea.

Under their wings the aircraft carried BDU-38 mockups of the B61 nuclear bomb. The crews had spent five months training for this event--their final exam for full certification to annihilate North Korea if ordered by the president to do so.

The basis for the exercise was a scenario in which North Korea invades South Korea, and in response, the 336th Fighter Squadron of the 4th Fighter Wing is "generated" in support of OPLAN (Operations Plan) 5027--a sustained offensive operation that includes "strategic attack missions" for the protection of South Korea. On their simulated mission, the F-15Es were accompanied by E-3A Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft, KC-135 tankers for refueling, and F-16 and F-16CJ and F-15C aircraft for protection.

In a July 14, 1998 interview, Wing Commander Randall K. Bigum described the mission: "We simulated fighting a war in Korea, using a Korean scenario. This included [North Korean] chemical attacks to protect against using full chemical gear [sic]. The scenario . . . simulated a decision by the National Command Authority about considering using nuclear weapons. . . . We identified aircraft, crews, and [weapon] loaders to load up tactical nuclear weapons onto our aircraft." The "last phase of the exercise, the employment phase . . . required us to fly those airplanes down to a range in Florida and drop" the BDU-38s.

Like I said in my redundant thread: "at least we can rest assured that we prevented Iraq from having the Bomb... :rolleyes: "

Wouldn't shock me one bit. That would be a mistake though, we're spread thin as it is...

-cough-draft-cough-

When you attend a funeral,
It is sad to think that sooner or'l
Later those you love will do the same for you.
And you may have thought it tragic,
Not to mention other adjec-
Tives, to think of all the weeping they will do.
(But don't you worry.)

No more ashes, no more sackcloth,
And an arm band made of black cloth
Will some day nevermore adorn a sleeve.
For if the bomb that drops on you
Gets your friends and neighbors too,
There'll be nobody left behind to grieve.

And we will all go together when we go.
What a comforting fact that is to know.
Universal bereavement,
An inspiring achievement,
Yes, we will all go together when we go.

We will all go together when we go.
All suffused with an incandescent glow.
No one will have the endurance
To collect on his insurance,
Lloyd's of London will be loaded when they go.

Oh we will all fry together when we fry.
We'll be French fried potatoes by and by.
There will be no more misery
When the world is our rotisserie,
Yes, we will all fry together when we fry.

Down by the old maelstrom,
There'll be a storm before the calm.

And we will all bake together when we bake.
There'll be nobody present at the wake.
With complete participation
In that grand incineration,
Nearly three billion hunks of well-done steak.

Oh we will all char together when we char.
And let there be no moaning of the bar.
Just sing out a Te Deum
When you see that I.C.B.M.,*
And the party will be come-as-you-are.

Oh, we will all burn together when we burn.
There'll be no need to stand and wait your turn.
When it's time for the fallout
And Saint Peter calls us all out,
We'll just drop our agendas and adjourn.

You will all go directly to your respective Valhallas.
Go directly, do not pass Go, do not collect two hundred dollahs.

And we will all go together when we go.
Every Hottentot and every Eskimo.
When the air becomes uranious,
We will all go simultaneous.
Yes, we all will go together
When we all go together,
Yes we all will go together when we go.

But yeah, I don't think we have anything to worry about. Kim Jung Il is not going to Nuke the US. He doesn't have ICBMs, and if he did, and he launched one at us, we'd turn Pyongyang into a nuclear hell hole. You'd be seeing wierd creatures with seven eyes, tenticles, and numerous sucker mouths crawling around in the nuclear wintery snowland for aeons to come.

Today is Nuclear Nyung's day of glory.

*Sigh*

I do believe that someone will try and do something about it.

I believe this is simple advancement. America cannot dictate another nation's policy. They simply cling to the archaic belief that they are the Masters of the World.

I'm hoping this will spur on other nations with the temperance and resolve to develop such weaponry, and advance up the ranks of power.

This is no pyramid of power.

Well, I don't think it'll effect it that much. There may be an invasion of N Korea though by the South Koreans and the Chinese (Who will be thoroughly pissed at Kim Jung Ill)

I actually would not be surprised of PRC troops crossed the Yalu sometime, espescially of the DPRK government collapses.

I actually would not be surprised of PRC troops crossed the Yalu sometime, espescially of the DPRK government collapses.

They might anyway, because they want the US to keep good relations with them, as we're their #1 trade partner.

They might anyway, because they want the US to keep good relations with them, as we're their #1 trade partner.

Wouldnt the DPRK use its nukes if it got invaded?

*Sigh*

I do believe that someone will try and do something about it.

I believe this is simple advancement. America cannot dictate another nation's policy. They simply cling to the archaic belief that they are the Masters of the World.

I'm hoping this will spur on other nations with the temperance and resolve to develop such weaponry, and advance up the ranks of power.

This is no pyramid of power.

I do not think that the US is going to be the one to be the country you would have to worry about doing anything, instead I would be concerned that we might see the Japanese developing their own nuclear arsenal, as well as the ROKs doing the same thing. I would also be concerned that the PRC might consider crossing the Yalu as well. The Chinese want to become a regional hegemon, and the DPRK is a serious challenge to the matter.

Wouldnt the DPRK use its nukes if it got invaded?

Probably, but then we'd waste them.

I'm hoping this will spur on other nations with the temperance and resolve to develop such weaponry

I sure hope it dosen't.
Cant you just imagine the next African genocide with Thermonuclear weapons?

Probably, but then we'd waste them.

I don't think Japan will be too happy about being irradiated, AGAIN.

*Sigh*

I do believe that someone will try and do something about it.

I believe this is simple advancement. America cannot dictate another nation's policy. They simply cling to the archaic belief that they are the Masters of the World.

I'm hoping this will spur on other nations with the temperance and resolve to develop such weaponry, and advance up the ranks of power.

This is no pyramid of power.

That's a great idea :rolleyes:

I want the damn things to go away, not for more people to get 'em.

I don't think Japan will be too happy about being irradiated, AGAIN.

Exactly why I hope Kim Jung won't launch any.

That's a great idea :rolleyes:

I want the damn things to go away, not for more people to get 'em.

What's interesting is that having a nuclear weapon is no guarantee that you can effectively use it against another country - especially against another country's military.

It does, however, make you a target for more advanced militaries, who, even though they may not be able to get every nuke on the first pass, will lay waste to your entire country at will in attempting to do so.

I smell bush saying that N. Korea is in ties with Al qaeda and the now have nukes and we are going to go fight them now...

I smell a lefty sucker-punching Bush in a topic that doesn't involve us, seeingas we arent even negotiating with North Korea, seeing as they refuse multi-party talks.

And since they have nukes, we're gonna go fight them... Re-think that. We're going too all out attack a nation that has nukes targeted at us...

Plus, I think blaming Sadaam, a radical, murderous, muslim, who had supported many terrorist organizations, is a far more legitimate claim, at allying with another facist islamic group (al-qaeda) than the COMPLETELY isolated state of North Korea.

Sucker punches against Bush, on NS: 4,393,110,393 and counting....

*Sigh*

I do believe that someone will try and do something about it.

I believe this is simple advancement. America cannot dictate another nation's policy. They simply cling to the archaic belief that they are the Masters of the World.

I'm hoping this will spur on other nations with the temperance and resolve to develop such weaponry, and advance up the ranks of power.

This is no pyramid of power.

Bro... Anyone who wants to see nukes in the hands of Kim Jong-Il is either murderous or delusional. The man is a raving psychopath, unquestionably.

That said, all that needs to be done is leaning on China a bit. If we get China to cut aid, Jong-Il's government won't survive the month.

China will most likely be cutting aid. They warned North Korea of severe consequences if they went along with this.

Here is what will happen:

--Further condemnation from most countries on the planet.
--Placing of sanctions by the UN Security Council, with China most likely supporting said sanctions.
--Quicker changing of Japan's constitution and rapid militarization of Japan.
--Possible South Korean or Japanese attempts to sabotage North Korea's nuclear facilities (not as likely)
--Demand that North Korea immediately suspend all nuclear programs. They will probably succumb with UN Sanctions placed on them and China completely pulling support for them.

And since they have nukes, we're gonna go fight them... Re-think that. We're going too all out attack a nation that has nukes targeted at us...

I don't think North Korea would nuke us. Kim Jong Il may be crazy, but he isn't stupid.

Plus, I think blaming Sadaam, a radical, murderous, muslim, who had supported many terrorist organizations, is a far more legitimate claim, at allying with another facist islamic group (al-qaeda) than the COMPLETELY isolated state of North Korea.

Al-Qaeda isn't facist, FYI. Al-Qaeda's leadership is decentralized, or pretty much the exact opposite of facism.

Bro... Anyone who wants to see nukes in the hands of Kim Jong-Il is either murderous or delusional. The man is a raving psychopath, unquestionably.

That said, all that needs to be done is leaning on China a bit. If we get China to cut aid, Jong-Il's government won't survive the month.

Well, you're right about his government not lasting a month, but I don't think the "leaning" on China will be quite so easy as you make it sound...

Hmmm. The geological service says they didn't see any spikes or such to suggest an explosion.......

Well, there's an OPLAN for this, that was exercised out of Seymour-Johnson AFB four or five times during the Clinton Admin. It involves nuking the shit out of North Korea.
Your fantasy come true? :eek:

Hmmm. The geological service says they didn't see any spikes or such to suggest an explosion.......

The USGS doesn't do the seismic detection of nukes unless they're large scale.

The US Military has its own seismic sensors for that purpose, and they're not likely to say anything without permission.

Well, you're right about his government not lasting a month, but I don't think the "leaning" on China will be quite so easy as you make it sound...

There is no need to lean on China. North Korea started pissing them off when they went out spouting about a nuclear test, and this has probably drastically strained North Korean-Chinese relations.

Hmmm. The geological service says they didn't see any spikes or such to suggest an explosion.......

They're reporting that the military is saying that they believe the DPRK's claim is true.

I wouldn't put it past Pyongyang to bluster about stuff that never happened, but this is one hell of a bluster, if that's the case.

I don't think North Korea would nuke us. Kim Jong Il may be crazy, but he isn't stupid.



Al-Qaeda isn't facist, FYI. Al-Qaeda's leadership is decentralized, or pretty much the exact opposite of facism.

Thats almost sad hearing you say that...an organization that promises "eternal bliss" based on your attempt too murder civilans and "infidels" (who, strangly enough, have been designated by the leadership..hmmm.), dictating how you live and feel, and allowing no room, for argument, from its members... Leaders come too power, through thier own will...imformation, and for that matter, false information is given too all members...Constant propoganda, and basically, a radical heirarchy...No really, thats the OPPOSITE of facism.

Reports coming in now - USGS is saying seismic activity in the range of 3.9 in the area of NK. China reportedly had a 20 minute warning on the test and notified the US, Japan, and others. Reports still coming in fast and furious.

Nothing showing on the USGS site yet. They are saying they should have official report within 30 minutes of this post.

When you attend a funeral,
It is sad to think that sooner or'l
Later those you love will do the same for you.
And you may have thought it tragic,
Not to mention other adjec-
Tives, to think of all the weeping they will do.
(But don't you worry.)

No more ashes, no more sackcloth,
And an arm band made of black cloth
Will some day nevermore adorn a sleeve.
For if the bomb that drops on you
Gets your friends and neighbors too,
There'll be nobody left behind to grieve.

And we will all go together when we go.
What a comforting fact that is to know.
Universal bereavement,
An inspiring achievement,
Yes, we will all go together when we go.

We will all go together when we go.
All suffused with an incandescent glow.
No one will have the endurance
To collect on his insurance,
Lloyd's of London will be loaded when they go.

Oh we will all fry together when we fry.
We'll be French fried potatoes by and by.
There will be no more misery
When the world is our rotisserie,
Yes, we will all fry together when we fry.

Down by the old maelstrom,
There'll be a storm before the calm.

And we will all bake together when we bake.
There'll be nobody present at the wake.
With complete participation
In that grand incineration,
Nearly three billion hunks of well-done steak.

Oh we will all char together when we char.
And let there be no moaning of the bar.
Just sing out a Te Deum
When you see that I.C.B.M.,*
And the party will be come-as-you-are.

Oh, we will all burn together when we burn.
There'll be no need to stand and wait your turn.
When it's time for the fallout
And Saint Peter calls us all out,
We'll just drop our agendas and adjourn.

You will all go directly to your respective Valhallas.
Go directly, do not pass Go, do not collect two hundred dollahs.

And we will all go together when we go.
Every Hottentot and every Eskimo.
When the air becomes uranious,
We will all go simultaneous.
Yes, we all will go together
When we all go together,
Yes we all will go together when we go.
You want 72 virgins with that? Sad, sad poem to say the least.

CNN is saying that the US Military says yes, guardedly, and there is this -

telemetry data (http://aslwww.cr.usgs.gov/Seismic_Data/telemetry_data/INCN_24hr.html) though some are saying that from the weakness of the spikes that it may have just been a small quake.

I know that quakes and underground blasts produce different waves and the diffference can be read, but this is the only data I have my hands on at the moment.

You want 72 virgins with that? Sad, sad poem to say the least.

It's a song by Tom Lehrer. I pity you, because you evidently have no idea who Tom Lehrer is.

Well, you're right about his government not lasting a month, but I don't think the "leaning" on China will be quite so easy as you make it sound...

We just need a carrot and a stick. Tarrifs and aid, or Tarrifs and concessions in the newly reunited Republic of Korea would both work.

We just need a carrot and a stick. Tarrifs and aid, or Tarrifs and concessions in the newly reunited Republic of Korea would both work.

You know, sometimes you're just dealing with crazy or motivated people, and carrots and sticks are bullshit in such cases.

Sure, the average North Korean probably wants food.

But they aren't in charge of jack shit in North Korea.

It's Kim Jong-Il and his generals who are running the place.

Just what we need, another lunatic with a nuke.

So they've set off one nuke. Any ideas on how many they already have/how long it will take to build more?

So they've set of one nuke. Any ideas on how many they already have/how long it will take to build more?

Theoretically, they had enough fissile material to make 6 to 8 already.

The Japanese are going to be pissed.

You know, sometimes you're just dealing with crazy or motivated people, and carrots and sticks are bullshit in such cases.

Sure, the average North Korean probably wants food.

But they aren't in charge of jack shit in North Korea.

It's Kim Jong-Il and his generals who are running the place.

I was speaking of china. You are correct about NK. NK will only be handled by starving them out or wasting resources on a high-casualty war.

And I qouteth:
AW HELL NAH!!!

Thats almost sad hearing you say that...an organization that promises "eternal bliss" based on your attempt too murder civilans and "infidels" (who, strangly enough, have been designated by the leadership..hmmm.), dictating how you live and feel, and allowing no room, for argument, from its members... Leaders come too power, through thier own will...imformation, and for that matter, false information is given too all members...Constant propoganda, and basically, a radical heirarchy...No really, thats the OPPOSITE of facism.

Facism is a type of government centralized around one absolute ruler. The fact that Al-Qaeda does not have any real centralized power makes it the opposite of facist. And no, before you say it, I do not support Al-Qaeda.

Facism is a type of government centralized around one absolute ruler. The fact that Al-Qaeda does not have any real centralized power makes it the opposite of facist. And no, before you say it, I do not support Al-Qaeda.

That's because it's an insurgent group.

Their goal, however, is to establish a highly centralized state. Maybe you need to read Osama's stuff more often.

The Japanese are going to be pissed.

Rightfully so, I think they deserve nukes.

That's because it's an insurgent group.

Their goal, however, is to establish a highly centralized state. Maybe you need to read Osama's stuff more often.

Well, I don't mean to say that they don't plan on creating a facist state, just that the group itself is not facist.

Rightfully so, I think they deserve nukes.

Who, the Japanese or the North Koreans? Because my understanding was that it was a matter of debate in Japan because a lot of people don't want them, and than there being forbbiden by the Japanese constitution.

What's the over/under on China doing something in the next 48 hours?

Japan might even do something here.

Looks like its time for a good ol' citizen coup...

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/02/01/th_KIM_JONG_index-thumb__60x40.jpg :mp5: :mp5:

Obviously, you have no idea how powerless the common North Korean is...:rolleyes:

Looks like its time for a good ol' citizen coup...

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/02/01/th_KIM_JONG_index-thumb__60x40.jpg :mp5: :mp5:

Hmmm...yeah...about that...

No.

Who, the Japanese or the North Koreans? Because my understanding was that it was a matter of debate in Japan because a lot of people don't want them, and than there being forbbiden by the Japanese constitution.

Both.

What's the over/under on China doing something in the next 48 hours?

Japan might even do something here.

Yeah, let's place bets! :D

Nuke the bastards.

Facism is a type of government centralized around one absolute ruler. The fact that Al-Qaeda does not have any real centralized power makes it the opposite of facist. And no, before you say it, I do not support Al-Qaeda.

Absolute ruler, Osama Bin Laden. Does he not dictate, rules, an operates, with the aid of his advisors? Facism is not limited too goverment. Jehovah's Witnesses practice under a facist religion. It doesnt matter if it is not centralized, or used by a goverment. Its an idealology, practiced by Al-Qadea. And I wasnt going too imply you supported Al-Qaeda...

Nuke the bastards.

They didn't nuke them when they had no nukes, what makes you think they will now?

I was just kidding about that. :rolleyes:

It's a song by Tom Lehrer. I pity you, because you evidently have no idea who Tom Lehrer is.
Neither do I want, nor do I solicit your pity. I grew up in the 60’s, some of the best years of my life and I don’t find my life lacking because I never heard of Tom Lehrer. However, after doing a little research on Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Lehrer), perhaps I should learn a little more about this guy. Apparently, he is not a very big fan of your fav George Bush?

When asked by an Australian newspaper about his silence since the 1960s and his legacy now, he commented that his particular brand of political satire is more difficult in the modern world. "The real issues I don't think most people touch. The Clinton jokes are all about Monica Lewinsky and all that stuff and not about the important things, like the fact that he wouldn't ban landmines... I'm not tempted to write a song about George W. Bush. I couldn't figure out what sort of song I would write. That's the problem: I don't want to satirise George Bush and his puppeteers, I want to vaporise them."[2]
So, now I know a bit more about this guy and so do you. Or did you know that he wasn't very fond of your big guy? :p

This is a fucking none issue. A) They just want attention B) even if they want to do something with it, they have no deliver system. What are they going to do, give to some kid to ride it into S. Korea on a bike?

Nuke the bastards.

*was being facetious*

I think we can all agree that the question on everyone's mind is what type of nuke is it? Gun or Compression?

I hope no one in NK learns about Project Pluto (http://www.bisbos.com/rocketscience/pluto/pluto-page.html). It could have revolutionized war just before ending it forever. And transit if it could have been cleaned up.

Think of it. A flying reactor, designed to spew fallout wherever it went. Flying close to the ground at super sonic speeds, leveling everything below its path. The perfect delivery system for the perfect tool of ultimate destruction. Nearly limitless potential and power...

Err, like I said, I hope NK doesn't find out about that little doozy.

Don't let this experience sour your perception of nuclear power or nuclear weapons though. Controlled fission in the latest generation reactors is an excellent source of clean, safe, and reliable power. And it's not like we can stop it from radiaiting, might as well use it while we've got it. And that will be quite a while if it's not mined and refined.

Nuclear bombs can be used in advanced propulsion systems for spacecraft. A nuclear pulse rocket would have a much loser mass ratio than a comparable chemical rocket. Why, the first proposed manned missions to Mars were based on NPRs and NERVAs. The nuclear test bans stopped all that, crippling our space programs and weakening our defenses. Nuclear pulse rockets offer us a peaceful way to dispose of our existing nuclear warheads while advancing exploration. Now that isn't what NK is up to but I hope it gives you a more complete picture of things as they, what they could have been, and what they could yet be.

Time for Diplomacy! (http://www.nn.northropgrumman.com/bush/images/desktops/90tons_1024_768.jpg)

How will this effect the world?

A lot of pissed off folks. DPRK already feels they have their backs up against the wall, and this won't help at all.

Well, I don't think it'll effect it that much. There may be an invasion of N Korea though by the South Koreans and the Chinese (Who will be thoroughly pissed at Kim Jung Ill)

An invasion is doubtful, unless the DPRK government collapses entierly.

Well, there's an OPLAN for this, that was exercised out of Seymour-Johnson AFB four or five times during the Clinton Admin. It involves nuking the shit out of North Korea.
Not a chance in hell. We can take them conventionally, and nuking them would just make us look bad.
He didn't. But he ordered the USAF to come up with a plan to nuke North Korea, and they practiced the plan several times.

It's mostly F-15E Strike Eagles flying into North Korea, and dropping 40 or so B-61 thermonuclear devices on North Korea.

DK, that's the OPLAN for a major theater war. The one you want in this case is OPLAN 5026 (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/oplan-5026.htm).


I smell bush saying that N. Korea is in ties with Al qaeda and the now have nukes and we are going to go fight them now...

He might say it, but short of airstrikes, there's nothing he can do about it right now.


Wouldn't shock me one bit. That would be a mistake though, we're spread thin as it is...

Indeed.

-cough-draft-cough-

Ain't going happen.

When you attend a funeral,
It is sad to think that sooner or'l
Later those you love will do the same for you.
And you may have thought it tragic,
Not to mention other adjec-
Tives, to think of all the weeping they will do.
(But don't you worry.)

No more ashes, no more sackcloth,
And an arm band made of black cloth
Will some day nevermore adorn a sleeve.
For if the bomb that drops on you
Gets your friends and neighbors too,
There'll be nobody left behind to grieve.

And we will all go together when we go.
What a comforting fact that is to know.
Universal bereavement,
An inspiring achievement,
Yes, we will all go together when we go.

We will all go together when we go.
All suffused with an incandescent glow.
No one will have the endurance
To collect on his insurance,
Lloyd's of London will be loaded when they go.

Oh we will all fry together when we fry.
We'll be French fried potatoes by and by.
There will be no more misery
When the world is our rotisserie,
Yes, we will all fry together when we fry.

Down by the old maelstrom,
There'll be a storm before the calm.

And we will all bake together when we bake.
There'll be nobody present at the wake.
With complete participation
In that grand incineration,
Nearly three billion hunks of well-done steak.

Oh we will all char together when we char.
And let there be no moaning of the bar.
Just sing out a Te Deum
When you see that I.C.B.M.,*
And the party will be come-as-you-are.

Oh, we will all burn together when we burn.
There'll be no need to stand and wait your turn.
When it's time for the fallout
And Saint Peter calls us all out,
We'll just drop our agendas and adjourn.

You will all go directly to your respective Valhallas.
Go directly, do not pass Go, do not collect two hundred dollahs.

And we will all go together when we go.
Every Hottentot and every Eskimo.
When the air becomes uranious,
We will all go simultaneous.
Yes, we all will go together
When we all go together,
Yes we all will go together when we go.

You want 72 virgins with that? Sad, sad poem to say the least.

It's a song by Tom Lehrer. I pity you, because you evidently have no idea who Tom Lehrer is.[/QUOTE]

CH, you didn't know that one? :eek:

But yeah, I don't think we have anything to worry about. Kim Jung Il is not going to Nuke the US. He doesn't have ICBMs, and if he did, and he launched one at us, we'd turn Pyongyang into a nuclear hell hole. You'd be seeing wierd creatures with seven eyes, tenticles, and numerous sucker mouths crawling around in the nuclear wintery snowland for aeons to come.

I actually would not be surprised of PRC troops crossed the Yalu sometime, espescially of the DPRK government collapses.

If thje government collapses, then yes. If they actually attack ROK, then yes. Otherwise, no.

The Japanese are going to be pissed.

Quite so.

Wouldnt the DPRK use its nukes if it got invaded?

It's quite possible.

I don't think Japan will be too happy about being irradiated, AGAIN.

Indeed.

So they've set off one nuke. Any ideas on how many they already have/how long it will take to build more?

Stockpile Estimates

It is estimated that North Korea has completed the nuclear fuel cycle from acquisition to reprocessing of nuclear fuel and is on the threshold of a nuclear weapons capability. Nevertheless, it is unclear whether it has actually produced or possesses nuclear weapons due to difficulties in developing detonation devices and delivery vehicles, which require high-tech and precision technologies. According to various sources of information, North Korea seemed to have reprocessed enough plutonium to produce one or two nuclear weapons. In addition, sufficient plutonium for another six nuclear weapons remained in fuel removed from the reactor at Yongbon but stored under international supervision, under the provisions of the 1994 Agreed Framework.

Publicly available evidence does not permit an assessment of the extent of the uranium program, and there is a considerable range of uncertainty. It is generally agreed that North Korea has attempted to acquire technology related to uranium enrichment from sources in several countries, including China, Russia and Pakistan. It is also generally agreed that, compared to the plutonium program, the precise status of the uranium program would be difficult to assess using sources such as satellite imagery. In contrast to the large and distinctive plutonium production reactors, a uranium enrichment program could be dispersed and hidden underground.

As of February 2005 Defense Intelligence Agency analysts were reported to believe that North Korea may already have produced as many as 12 to 15 nuclear weapons. This would imply that by the end of 2004 North Korea had produced somewhere between four and eight uranium bombs [on top of the seven or eight plutonium bombs already on hand]. The DIA's estimate was at the high end of an intelligence community-wide assessment of North Korea's nuclear arsenal completed in early 2005. The CIA lowballed the estimate at two to three bombs, which would suggest an assessment that the DPRK either had not reprocessed a significant amount of plutonium from the 8,000 spent fuel rods removed from storage in early 2003, or had not fabricated a significant number of weapons from whatever amount of plutonium had been reprocessed. The Department of Energy's analysis put North Korea's stockpile somewhere in between, which would be consistent with the roughly 7 or 8 plutonium bombs that could be produced from all existing plutonium stocks, with no uranium bombs.

If one assumes that the DPRK produced sufficient plutonium for eight bombs, and expended one of these bombs in a test in Pakistan in 1998, then as of 2005 their plutonium bomb inventory would be seven weapons. Taking the mid-point of the DIA's estimate of between four and eight uranium bombs, the plausible uranium bomb stockpile as of early 2005 would be six weapons, increasing at a rate of one bomb every two months. Thus the early 2005 stockpile would be 13 weapons, growing to about 20 weapons by the end of the year.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/dprk/nuke.htm

China will most likely be cutting aid. They warned North Korea of severe consequences if they went along with this.

Here is what will happen:

--Further condemnation from most countries on the planet.
--Placing of sanctions by the UN Security Council, with China most likely supporting said sanctions.
--Quicker changing of Japan's constitution and rapid militarization of Japan.
--Possible South Korean or Japanese attempts to sabotage North Korea's nuclear facilities (not as likely)
--Demand that North Korea immediately suspend all nuclear programs. They will probably succumb with UN Sanctions placed on them and China completely pulling support for them.

That's the most reasoned assesment anyone's posted yet.
Hmmm. The geological service says they didn't see any spikes or such to suggest an explosion.......

Time for Diplomacy! (http://www.nn.northropgrumman.com/bush/images/desktops/90tons_1024_768.jpg)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15191118/from/RS.2/

North Korea said Monday it had conducted its first nuclear weapons test. The text of the announcement by the country’s official Korean Central News Agency follows. The formal name for North Korea is the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea or DPRK and KPA refers to the Korean People’s Army:

“The field of scientific research in the DPRK successfully conducted an underground nuclear test under secure conditions on October 9, 2006, at a stirring time when all the people of the country are making a great leap forward in the building of a great, prosperous, powerful socialist nation.

“It has been confirmed that there was no such danger as radioactive emission in the course of the nuclear test as it was carried out under scientific consideration and careful calculation.

“The nuclear test was conducted with indigenous wisdom and technology 100 percent. It marks a historic event as it greatly encouraged and pleased the KPA and people that have wished to have powerful self-reliant defense capability.

“It will contribute to defending the peace and stability on the Korean Peninsula and in the area around it.”

I think Gir puts it best.

http://www.siberkat.com/thewavszim2/yaydoomg.wav

I think Gir puts it best.

http://www.siberkat.com/thewavszim2/yaydoomg.wav

That's totally my new windows start sound.

Diplomacy is how they got the nuke...thank Mr Clinton .

I reckon this means that north Korea will be the third country to have thermo nuclear weapons used against them after N.Korea makes someone else the second.

Neither do I want, nor do I solicit your pity. I grew up in the 60’s, some of the best years of my life and I don’t find my life lacking because I never heard of Tom Lehrer. However, after doing a little research on Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Lehrer), perhaps I should learn a little more about this guy.

Indeed you should.

I'll point to the song Who's Next as being more apropos.
(Old Tom was famous for his intros. That's the italicised part.)
One of the big news items of the past year concerned the fact that China, which we called "Red China," exploded a nuclear bomb, which we called a device. Then Indonesia announced that it was going to have one soon, and proliferation became the word of the day. Here's a song about that:

First we got the bomb, and that was good,
'Cause we love peace and motherhood.
Then Russia got the bomb, but that's okay,
'Cause the balance of power's maintained that way.
Who's next?

France got the bomb, but don't you grieve,
'Cause they're on our side (I believe).
China got the bomb, but have no fears,
They can't wipe us out for at least five years.
Who's next?

Then Indonesia claimed that they
Were gonna get one any day.
South Africa wants two, that's right:
One for the black and one for the white.
Who's next?

Egypt's gonna get one too,
Just to use on you know who.
So Israel's getting tense.
Wants one in self defense.
"The Lord's our shepherd," says the psalm,
But just in case, we better get a bomb.
Who's next?

Luxembourg is next to go,
And (who knows?) maybe Monaco.
We'll try to stay serene and calm
When Alabama gets the bomb.
Who's next?
Who's next?
Who's next?
Who's next?

I strongly suspect you'd also enjoy So Long Mom (A Song for WWIII) [[/URL]] and Send the Marines [[URL="http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Send-The-Marines-lyrics-Tom-Lehrer/8BAC8D084920F0D348256A7D00258ABE"]2 (http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/So-Long-Mom-A-Song-for-World-War-III-lyrics-Tom-Lehrer/65C10DC342E63A6848256A7D002581BD)]. :D

Theoretically, they had enough fissile material to make 6 to 8 already.

More than that - around 20. [3 (http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/dprk/nuke.htm)]

Diplomacy is how they got the nuke...thank Mr Clinton .

I love the neocon BS. Bush spends billions taking out a regime that has been demonstrated to not have been developing WMDs and leaves perfectly alone the one that clearly was, and somehow this is Clinton's fault.

I love the neocon BS. Bush spends billions taking out a regime that has been demonstrated to not have been developing WMDs and leaves perfectly alone the one that clearly was, and somehow this is Clinton's fault.

Umm actually, it is Clinton fault. See, Clinton had the silly notion that appeasement works, and he appeased Kim Jong Il by giving him coal for his power plant. I mean comon it's clear that Kim just wanted nuclear power for the power plants. Anyways, the agreement was that Kim Jong Il wouldn't dare develop nukes, and he would get coal for as long as he kept up our end of the bargin. Of course, we're told that appeasement works...

Oh, shit.

I love the neocon BS. Bush spends billions taking out a regime that has been demonstrated to not have been developing WMDs and leaves perfectly alone the one that clearly was, and somehow this is Clinton's fault.
Oh would you let it go with that "BUSH LIED PPL DYED!" crap! He got bad intel and didn't know it until he had already stepped in it big. I am sick and tired of all this "Bush is teh ebilnezz!ZOMFG!!" The problem is that nobody took Lil' Kim seriously until now and let him go about his business without being noticed, which is what he wanted. Now he's close to having something he thinks'll let him take over the south and the rest of the world will debate what to do instead of doing anything. People like him count on diplomacy and committee and talk rather than action.

If he wants a war bad enough he might just get one he won't have a chance to forget.

Umm actually, it is Clinton fault. See, Clinton had the silly notion that appeasement works, and he appeased Kim Jong Il by giving him coal for his power plant. I mean comon it's clear that Kim just wanted nuclear power for the power plants. Anyways, the agreement was that Kim Jong Il wouldn't dare develop nukes, and he would get coal for as long as he kept up our end of the bargin. Of course, we're told that appeasement works...

:D Oh yea! The "Clinton did it" defense.

Let it go buddy. He is gone.

Then again. When Hillary gets elected. :D

Oh would you let it go with that "BUSH LIED PPL DYED!" crap! He got bad intel and didn't know it until he had already stepped in it big. I am sick and tired of all this "Bush is teh ebilnezz!ZOMFG!!" The problem is that nobody took Lil' Kim seriously until now and let him go about his business without being noticed

So we thought the guy who we had no first hand evidence of WMD development was developing WMDs and ignored the guy who actually said he was.

Unfortunatly for you if the only counter argument to "bush lied" is "he didn't lie, it's just that his administration is incompetant" you're not doing so well.

But yeah, I don't think we have anything to worry about. Kim Jung Il is not going to Nuke the US. He doesn't have ICBMs, and if he did, and he launched one at us, we'd turn Pyongyang into a nuclear hell hole. You'd be seeing wierd creatures with seven eyes, tenticles, and numerous sucker mouths crawling around in the nuclear wintery snowland for aeons to come.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3539/nukemd0.png

:D :D :D

:D Oh yea! The "Clinton did it" defense.

Let it go buddy. He is gone.

Then again. When Hillary gets elected. :D

Denial is the most predictable of all human responses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreed_Framework

Yeah, this is definitely worrying... especially for me, when my father lives and works 3 weeks out of every 5 in Seoul. And he's going back to South Korea tonight.

The last thing I want is 30,000,000 people (including, not so coincidentally, my own father) killed in some jackass thermonuclear war because the whacked-out dictator of North Korea decided to prove to everyone he could build a bigger military prick than everybody else.

I'm going to say that someone acts in a military manner within 2 months.

But it won't be China...

Oh would you let it go with that "BUSH LIED PPL DYED!" crap!

Indeed.

He got bad intel and didn't know it until he had already stepped in it big. I am sick and tired of all this "Bush is teh ebilnezz!ZOMFG!!"

Half correct. He set up his administration in such a way that he only got cherry picked intel supporting his preconceived notions. So, yes, he got bad intel, but that was because he had already decided he was correct.

Oh yea! The "Clinton did it" defense.

Let it go buddy. He is gone.

Then again. When Hillary gets elected.

Exactly so.

The problem is that nobody took Lil' Kim seriously until now and let him go about his business without being noticed, which is what he wanted.

More or less.

Now he's close to having something he thinks'll let him take over the south and the rest of the world will debate what to do instead of doing anything. People like him count on diplomacy and committee and talk rather than action.

That contradicts your above statement.... Either he wants to be left alone or he wants to take the ROK.

There is one solution that many people have probably overlooked. The enemy cannot push a button if you disable his hand.

And to Daistallia 2104, I don't see the contradiction. He's been left alone and he's counting on being left alone while he does something downright mean.

There is one solution that many people have probably overlooked. The enemy cannot push a button if you disable his hand.

And to Daistallia 2104, I don't see the contradiction. He's been left alone and he's counting on being left alone while he does something downright mean.

He could just use a stick... :p

He could just use a stick... :p
And how are you ever going to get close enough to throw a knife at him? If you were that close you'd probably just shoot to kill and be done with it. It was just a joke though. I have a terrible sense of humor.

And how are you ever going to get close enough to throw a knife at him? If you were that close you'd probably just shoot to kill and be done with it. It was just a joke though. I have a terrible sense of humor.

I know, I was kidding too. I'd said it in 2003 when we invaded Iraq, and I'll say it again, we are looking at the beginning of World War III.

See I don't think so. I think threat of mutual destruction and all that jazz will keep it from happening. A balance of terror but still a balance. What we have to worry about now are the small fires, the nobodies that wanna be somebodies, the little Hitlers and pseudo-Stalins.

As far as I can tell, this would of been 24 times weaker then Hiroshima. It was fraking tiny.

And to Daistallia 2104, I don't see the contradiction. He's been left alone and he's counting on being left alone while he does something downright mean.

Ah, got you. The way you worded it originally wasn't clear.

It's not WWIII IMO. Since pretty much no country in the world is friends with NK, and everyone in their area is particularly unfriendly, it won't be much of a war. I wouldn't put it past Kim to launch a nuke, but if he does North Korea will be a smoking crater in a day and problems are solved.

See I don't think so. I think threat of mutual destruction and all that jazz will keep it from happening. A balance of terror but still a balance. What we have to worry about now are the small fires, the nobodies that wanna be somebodies, the little Hitlers and pseudo-Stalins.

Eh, do you really think MAD would work this time? I mean back in the Cold War, MAD worked because both leaders realize that the other side has enough nukes to destory the world 10 times over. They both knew that and thus that why Korea and Vietnam were proxy wars.

However, Kim Jong Il, or the President of Iran for that matter doesn't seem that stable to me. They apparently don't realize that US, Russia, India, Pakistan, Israel, UK, etc. All have nukes, and that their actions so far have been hostile. They don't realize that all it takes is for one hostile action to spark a chain reaction that ends in Nuclear winter. Or else Kim wouldn't have gone this far.

It's not WWIII IMO. Since pretty much no country in the world is friends with NK, and everyone in their area is particularly unfriendly, it won't be much of a war. I wouldn't put it past Kim to launch a nuke, but if he does North Korea will be a smoking crater in a day and problems are solved.

Ehh, or it could start a chain reaction. If N. Korea gets nuked, by the US, then all bets are off. Pakistan and India nuke one another, Russia nuke the US, US Nuke Russia, and Iran, Israel nukes Iran etc. Trust me all it takes is for one nuclear bomb to touch foregin ground and all bets are off.

See I'm not so sure about that in this case. The UN is not nuke friendly and there is a weapons testing ban in effect. While I don't think NK signed on, but these tests are still being frowned at by just about everyone. They might be willing to look the other way if Russia, China, and/or some other major powers decided to chip in a joint strike effort. then again, it might turn into another mid-east situation with the US and one other once again taking center stage with other nations making minor contributions by comparison.

Eh, do you really think MAD would work this time? I mean back in the Cold War, MAD worked because both leaders realize that the other side has enough nukes to destory the world 10 times over. They both knew that and thus that why Korea and Vietnam were proxy wars.
Don't forget Afghanistan - the country that just can't be beat by invaders! (TM)
However, Kim Jong Il, or the President of Iran for that matter doesn't seem that stable to me. They apparently don't realize that US, Russia, India, Pakistan, Israel, UK, etc. All have nukes, and that their actions so far have been hostile. They don't realize that all it takes is for one hostile action to spark a chain reaction that ends in Nuclear winter. Or else Kim wouldn't have gone this far.
If he was canny enoughto get a nuke, I'm pretty sure he'll know why he'll never be able to use it.

As far as I can tell, this would of been 24 times weaker then Hiroshima. It was fraking tiny.

Because it was a test. North Korea doesn't produce *that* much nuclear fuel at all, so they wouldn't waste it on some huge test that the whole world could look at. They needed to test the technology, not the extremely difficult to produce fuel.

There are only two kinds of nuke. Gun and compression. Both have been proven to work and the plans for both are on the internet. It's not hard for you or me to build nukes sans fuel and explosives.

And nukes can be made small enough to just blow up a building. They don't have to be huge, just bigger bang for your buck than a normal bomb. No nuke is ever small enough to fit in a suitcase, the smallest are the size of a footlocker.

I'd be willing to say that as N. Korea suddenly having useful nuclear weapons, it's not exactly a big deal. But globally, I would be willing to bet it's going to be a big deal. I only say that thing about weapons though because I had just read in today's paper about how there's probably going to be a nuclear test in N. Korea. There were analysing how there would be a difference between whether it's simply an "oh look at me I can make nuke go boom!" and trying to actually develop a weapon. They were saying that only one single explosion is probably the former, while the latter would be the case should they explode several nukes. But since it only appears to be one, I don't think that we have much to worry about from being nuked by N. Korea. BTW Rhaomi, right on with the Defcon pic :D .

Even if something gets nuked, it probably won't start any wars. MAD doesn't apply here because North Korea doesn't have anybody backing them up.

Shit... This is not good. This is not good at all.

I hear Japan said that if this happened they would start intercepting North Korea shipping.

I
Project Pluto (http://www.bisbos.com/rocketscience/pluto/pluto-page.html)
That missile really looks very phallic.

Bro... Anyone who wants to see nukes in the hands of Kim Jong-Il is either murderous or delusional. The man is a raving psychopath, unquestionably.

That said, all that needs to be done is leaning on China a bit. If we get China to cut aid, Jong-Il's government won't survive the month.
China will cut aid. China MUST cut aid. They may be a bunch of human rights violating commies, but they're not stupid enough to allow North Korea to go around saying "NOOOOOOOKS!"

Frankly, I don't mind stable governments like Britain, France, and whatnot having nukes. It's places like Iran and North Korea that should not have them, because they might be dipshit crazy enough to actually use the damned things.

Thank goodness Shinzo Abe became the PM. Now let's revise the constitution, withdrawal from the NPT and develop our own nukes. With neighbours like these (China and NK) I don't think anyone would blame us.

Thank goodness Shinzo Abe became the PM. Now let's revise the constitution, withdrawal from the NPT and develop our own nukes. With neighbours like these (China and NK) I don't think anyone would blame us.

He'll have a hell of a fight on his hands getting that through. I don't think he really has the political backing to get it through. And if he does... >.<

Thank goodness Shinzo Abe became the PM. Now let's revise the constitution, withdrawal from the NPT and develop our own nukes. With neighbours like these (China and NK) I don't think anyone would blame us.

That would be the WORST mistake you could make right now. We don't need Japan stirring up even more shit. North Korea is bad enough; you start waving your dicks around and sooner or later North Korea WILL shoot them off.

He'll have a hell of a fight on his hands getting that through. I don't think he really has the political backing to get it through. And if he does... >.<

Changing the constitution won't be difficult. Developing nukes would be. But with the way NK is acting, developing nukes won't be a controversial idea in Japan for much longer.

Changing the constitution won't be difficult. Developing nukes would be.

Pfft...Japan could probably have a working nuclear weapon in less than a week, if they really wanted to. They already have all the technology and practical knowledge they need.

F*cking bomb them all. Democracy will prevail over Communism, as long as I'm alive.


Conscription.... damnit.

Pfft...Japan could probably have a working nuclear weapon in less than a week, if they really wanted to. They already have all the technology and practical knowledge they need.

The difficulty isn't technology. It's public opinion. We need a few more provocations, and that will change.

Pfft...Japan could probably have a working nuclear weapon in less than a week, if they really wanted to. They already have all the technology and practical knowledge they need.

The same applies to many nations. Germany, for example.

Changing the constitution won't be difficult. Developing nukes would be. But with the way NK is acting, developing nukes won't be a controversial idea in Japan for much longer.
Half of the LDP, the DPJ, the littles and the LDP's partner beg to differ with you.

Come to think of it, so does half of the rest of Japan.

Though the fallout from this is NOT going to be good.

Changing the constitution won't be difficult. Developing nukes would be. But with the way NK is acting, developing nukes won't be a controversial idea in Japan for much longer.

Well, article 9 is already being ignored, and has been for quite a long time (Shidehara must be spinning in his grave to think that Japan's even considering nuclear weapons).

(BTW, where are you in Japan? We have only have two regular poster here - me and NERVUN, after the poster Emperess Suiko - a Japanese American went bonkers and got herself banned. We are both USAmerican, and a hopefully authentic Japanese voice would make a nice/interesting addition.)

Well, article 9 is already being ignored, and has been for quite a long time (Shidehara must be spinning in his grave to think that Japan's even considering nuclear weapons).

(BTW, where are you in Japan? We have only have two regular poster here - me and NERVUN, after the poster Emperess Suiko - a Japanese American went bonkers and got herself banned. We are both USAmerican, and a hopefully authentic Japanese voice would make a nice/interesting addition.)

Osaka.

Pfft...Japan could probably have a working nuclear weapon in less than a week, if they really wanted to. They already have all the technology and practical knowledge they need.
The difficulty isn't technology. It's public opinion.

Indeed.

It's public opinion. We need a few more provocations, and that will change.

First part's true. The second, I'm going to have very cautiously agree with, depending on the provocations. It would take something quite a bit stronger - for example, if the PRC doesn't follow up obn their threats and wwe see much more of the anti-Japanese rhetoric, maybe...

Half of the LDP, the DPJ, the littles and the LDP's partner beg to differ with you.

Come to think of it, so does half of the rest of Japan.

Though the fallout from this is NOT going to be good.

Indeed.

The difficulty isn't technology. It's public opinion. We need a few more provocations, and that will change.
I think it will need more that that. Japan's modern ID is built around it being the only country to experiance an atomic attack. It wallows in it. Everyone is taught how horrible and bad nukes are and many school trips are taken to the peace museums of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to drive the points home.

Getting Japan to change its mind on nukes will take a whole lot, rather, getting the population to accept it without commiting political suicide will take a lot.

Changing the constitution won't be difficult. Developing nukes would be.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, making a gun-type nuke is not hard. Just get 2 chunks of uranium at opposite ends of a tube and pack explosives behind one of them. Crude but effective.

Osaka.

:eek: We have a second poster here in Osaka???? :eek:

AWESOME!

:::does happy dance:::

:D:D :D :D

Whereabouts? I'm in Sakai.

Osaka.
*sighs* Everyone is ALWAYS in Southern/Western Japan. They NEVER are up around me. Oh well, such is the lonely life I lead. :D

Is radiation good for bio diversity ?
:gundge:

*sighs* Everyone is ALWAYS in Southern/Western Japan. They NEVER are up around me. Oh well, such is the lonely life I lead. :D

Too cold up there. :p

Is radiation good for bio diversity ?
:gundge:

Yes. Now run along and go play in the traffic - I think I hear a big truck coming...

I think it will need more that that. Japan's modern ID is built around it being the only country to experiance an atomic attack. It wallows in it. Everyone is taught how horrible and bad nukes are and many school trips are taken to the peace museums of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to drive the points home.

Getting Japan to change its mind on nukes will take a whole lot, rather, getting the population to accept it without commiting political suicide will take a lot.

Japan did at one point consider developing nukes though.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/japan/nuke.htm

During the Sato cabinet in the 1960's, it is reported that Japan secretly studied the development of nuclear weapons. Prime Minister Eisaku Sato secured nuclear protection from the United States in 1965 by exagerating Tokyo's readiness to develop nuclear weapons. In a 29 December 1964 meeting, Sato told US Ambassador to Japan Edwin Reischauer that Japan might develop nuclear weapons. This followed China's first successful atom-bomb test in October 1964.




Hahaha I can't believe you live in Sakai! I know the city well. I live near Nanba station.

anyway, I am headed home now. PM me, or something.

Aaarrrggghhhhh.......America has nukes.......bomb it bomb it!!!
After all, it has a despotic leader who starts wars against world opinion!!

Seriously - why can't we leave the country alone. You cannot take sanctions against a 'perceived' threat. Should the police arrest everyone with a gun incase they become murderers??

Japan did at one point consider developing nukes though.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/japan/nuke.htm

During the Sato cabinet in the 1960's, it is reported that Japan secretly studied the development of nuclear weapons. Prime Minister Eisaku Sato secured nuclear protection from the United States in 1965 by exagerating Tokyo's readiness to develop nuclear weapons. In a 29 December 1964 meeting, Sato told US Ambassador to Japan Edwin Reischauer that Japan might develop nuclear weapons. This followed China's first successful atom-bomb test in October 1964.

Bolding mine.
Note that was the government, and that they were saying it for political gain, not out of seriousness.

Hahaha I can't believe you live in Sakai! I know the city well. I live near Nanba station.

Excellent. Send me a telegram if you want to grab a beer sometime. :cool:

Seriously - why can't we leave the country alone. You cannot take sanctions against a 'perceived' threat. Should the police arrest everyone with a gun incase they become murderers??
You're asking that ON THIS FORUM? :eek:

Congratulations DPRK.

The timing is spot on. Abe is visiting Beijing.[added later, actually South Korea, but kinda same effect]

My predictions in Leonstein's thread was The US will react like a wussy that it is when it comes to dealing with Chinese proxies. The Far East will be crying murder. The Muslim countries will snicker at the US discomfort. The EU will do its usual pontifications. The Latin Americans will be partying as usual. India will feel vindicated. Pakistan will be happy that their Chinese bomb still works. Australia will be ignored.

Chicoms have completely outmanouvered US. Let's see how the NPT community spins this one, since it is clear that their darlings China and Pakistan are the sole contributors to DPRK's "indigenous" bomb.

I think it will need more that that. Japan's modern ID is built around it being the only country to experiance an atomic attack. It wallows in it. Everyone is taught how horrible and bad nukes are and many school trips are taken to the peace museums of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to drive the points home.

Getting Japan to change its mind on nukes will take a whole lot, rather, getting the population to accept it without commiting political suicide will take a lot.

People are known to make stranger choices when properly scared.

Aaarrrggghhhhh.......America has nukes.......bomb it bomb it!!!
After all, it has a despotic leader who starts wars against world opinion!!

Seriously - why can't we leave the country alone. You cannot take sanctions against a 'perceived' threat. Should the police arrest everyone with a gun incase they become murderers??
"Nuke it, DoT it...help the whelp groups..."

Ahem.

No, that's not what people are advising. But there comes a point when you have to recognize that a country with leaders as crazy and power-hungry as North Korea is immensly dangerous, even more so with nuclear weaponry. Think about it for a second: would we have wanted Mussolini, Hitler, or Hirohito in possession of nuclear weaponry during World War II? No. We, similarly, do not want North Korea in possession of it. Kim Jong-Il and his ilk are of the same breed as those three Axis leaders: crazy, maniacle idiots who would not stop at anything to gain more power and keep it.

The timing is spot one. Abe is visiting Beijing.

[QUOTE]North Korea said on Monday it had safely and successfully carried out an underground nuclear test in a gesture of defiance as Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe arrived in South Korea.
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2006-10-09T042218Z_01_L08141538_RTRUKOC_0_US-KOREA-NORTH.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

Have you informed the Chinese you moved Beijing to the ROK?

-cough-draft-cough-

My thoughts exactly.

Have you informed the Chinese you moved Beijing to the ROK?

No, but I plan to.:D

Sorry, I remember reading about his visit the area, I mistakenly thought he is in Beijing. Thanks for the correction.

No, but I plan to.:D

Sorry, I remember reading about his visit the area, I mistakenly thought he is in Beijing. Thanks for the correction.

;)

Timeline from 1993 to now.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/10/09/asia/AS_GEN_Koreas_Nuclear_Chronology.php
Published: October 8, 2006
A timeline on nuclear weapons development in North Korea:

- 1993: North Korea shocks world by saying it will quit Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, later suspends its withdrawal.

- 1994: North Korea, United States sign agreement in Geneva, North pledges to freeze, eventually dismantle, nuclear weapons program in exchange for help building two power-producing nuclear reactors.

- Sept. 17, 1999: U.S. President Bill Clinton agrees to first major easing of economic sanctions against North Korea since Korean War's end in 1953.

- July 2000: North Korea threatens to restart nuclear program if Washington does not compensate for loss of electricity due to delays in building nuclear power plants.

- June 2001: North Korea warns it will reconsider missile test moratorium if Washington doesn't resume contacts aimed at normalizing relations.

- July 2001: U.S. State Department reports North Korea developing long-range missile.

- December 2001: President Bush warns Iraq and North Korea will be "held accountable" if they develop weapons of mass destruction.

- Jan. 29, 2002: Bush labels North Korea, Iran and Iraq an "axis of evil."

- Oct. 4, 2002: North Korea tells visiting U.S. delegation it has a second covert nuclear weapons program, Washington says.

- Nov. 11, 2002: U.S. and key Asian allies - Japan, South Korea - halt oil supplies to North promised in 1994 deal.

- Jan. 10, 2003: North Korea says it will withdraw from Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty.

- April 16, 2003: U.S., Chinese and North Korean officials announce talks in Beijing aimed at ending nuclear standoff.

- April 24, 2003: North Korea says it has nuclear weapons and may test, export or use them depending on U.S. actions, Washington says.

- Aug. 27-29, 2003: North Korea joins first round of six-nation nuclear talks in Beijing, which include China, U.S. Japan, Russia and South Korea.

- Feb. 25-28, 2004: Second round of six-nation talks.

- June 23-26, 2004: Third round of six-nation talks.

- September 2004: North Korea refuses to attend fourth round talks, accusing U.S. of "hostile" policies.

- Feb. 10, 2005: North Korea announces it has nuclear weapons.

- July 26, 2005: Fourth round of six-nation talks begins, ends in recess after 13 days with no agreement.

- Sept. 13, 2005: Talks resume.

- Sept. 15, 2005: U.S. blacklists a Macau-based bank for alleged involvement in North Korea's illicit activity such as money laundering and counterfeiting, leads the bank to freeze North Korean assets.

- Sept. 19, 2005: North Korea pledges to dismantle nuclear programs in exchange for pledges of energy assistance; U.S. pledges not to invade and to respect North's sovereignty in an agreement ending talks.

- Nov. 9-11, 2005: Fifth round of six-nation talks.

- Jan. 3, 2006: North Korea says it won't return to talks unless the U.S. lifts financial restrictions imposed for its alleged currency counterfeiting and other illegal activities.

- March 7: North Korean, U.S. officials meet in New York for talks over U.S. financial restrictions.

- July 5: North Korea launches seven missiles into the Sea of Japan, including a long-range Taepodong-2, drawing international condemnation an a later U.N. Security Council resolution condemning it.

- Sept. 26: North Korea rejects further talks on its nuclear program, claims Washington wants to rule the world.

- Oct. 3: North Korea says it will conduct a nuclear test in the face of what it claimed was "the U.S. extreme threat of a nuclear war."

- Oct. 9: North Koreas says it has conducted its first-ever nuclear test.

test site.http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsww/Maps/10/130_40.gif

I don't like any nation to have nukes, I don't care if it is the United States, UK, North Korea, Russia or Israel.

The whole planet is going ape because North Korea has nukes, the planet doesn't care if the US has them. This is a problem since nut case Bush is the president and McNamara almost blasted the world to hell at many points in the last half century.

S.Korea says Richter Magnitude 3.8 and USGS says 4.2.

Any info on what the Chinese and N.Koreans are saying?

S.Korea says Richter Magnitude 3.8 and USGS says 4.2.

Any info on what the Chinese and N.Koreans are saying?

Seismic wave from N. Korea's nuclear test observed in Japan
A seismic graph showing the readout at the time of North Korea's apparent nuclear test on Monday morning.

A seismic wave believed to have been generated by North Korea's underground nuclear test was observed in Japan Monday morning, experts said.

Supersensitive seismometers maintained by Kyushu University and the National Research Institute for Earth Science and Disaster Prevention detected the seismic wave.

Kyushu University seismologists said the artificial earthquake that struck at 10:35 a.m. registered 4.3 on the open-ended Richter scale. Its analysis shows that the focus of the quake was situated somewhere between the Korean Peninsula and the Sea of Japan.

Small vibrations were picked up by seismometers installed in Fukuoka, Saga, Nagasaki Hiroshima and Okayama prefectures. (Mainichi)
Click here for the original Japanese story

http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/national/news/20061009p2a00m0na028000c.html

Oh, BTW, Abe was meeting with President Roh at the time. Also, he met with Hu Jintao in Beijing yesterday, which may be what had you confused.

I hope the North Koreans do realise that they do have an abnormally high water table, and so have now managed to fill their only supply with radioactive heavy metals?

But I doubt anything will come of it. Sanctions on North Korea perhaps, but little change to anything. It's not as if they have oil or anything.

now they made sure that they won't be invaded like Irak because they are weak. Nukes are a necessary tool to sit on the table and sign deals.

Damn them, lets hope China will be really pissed now and dump that maniac Kim.

Damn them, lets hope China will be really pissed now and dump that maniac Kim.

They have. Openly. I think the Chinese have been pissed at Kim for a long, long time, and it's taken this to get them to be honest about it. China is North Korea's largest donor, in terms of capital and food, and is rapidly modernising economically. All it gets in return from backward North Korea is broken promises, political embrassment, and thousands of refugees.

For China, North Korea is a liability that has failed to move with the times. They would rather make money from North Korea, than spend it on them.

How will this effect the world?


It won't. The world has already been effected, many million years ago. It may, however, affect it.


Plus, I think blaming Sadaam, a radical, murderous, muslim

It's interesting to see the effects propaganda has had on you. Saddam (two Ds, one A) was a murderous dictator, yes, but he was not, by any stretch of the imagination, a "radical Muslim". Quite the reverse; he was by far one of the most secular leaders in the Middle East, and religious extremists hated him. I imagine bin Laden cheered when Saddam went down, opening the way for Iraq to become a theocracy at last.

Get your facts straight. Your ignorance is embarassing.

As for the rest... I really don't see war coming from this. Kim likes to make everyone nervous, but he won't start a war that'll see him destroyed. And the US won't start a war which would result in Seoul and Tokyo getting bombed by the DPRK.

I hope we kick their arse!

to point out the obvious; the u.s. has more nukes then anybody else and under the current adminsitration is the least trustworthy of anyone with them.

if the u.s. would lead by example, rather then "do as i say and not as i do", which doesn't work well at home, and not at all in international relations, well if it did, n. koria might well never have felt the need to go to the expense of developing them.

also test exploding a 'device' is a Loooooooooooooooong way from having a deployable weapon system or a useful means of delivering it.

at least for a small nation of relatively limited means, whatever the u.s. may have done at the dawn of the nuclear age.

=^^=
.../\...

to point out the obvious; the u.s. has more nukes then anybody else and under the current adminsitration is the least trustworthy of anyone with them.

if the u.s. would lead by example, rather then "do as i say and not as i do", which doesn't work well at home, and not at all in international relations, well if it did, n. koria might well never have felt the need to go to the expense of developing them.

also test exploding a 'device' is a Loooooooooooooooong way from having a deployable weapon system or a useful means of delivering it.

at least for a small nation of relatively limited means, whatever the u.s. may have done at the dawn of the nuclear age.

=^^=
.../\...
The US is the defender of Democracy.
North Korea are a bunch of nutters.

World War 3 (not III, ruman numerals are so not this century) is coming.

I really would hate to be in South Korea or Japan right now.

I mean, yeah, I know most of us lived with some sort of risk of nuclear annihilation during our lives, but no matter what you thought about the Soviets - they were a lot more trustworthy than Kimmy and his classic Hollywood-watching goons.

I don't think anything more will come from it. It's not like you can put any more trade restrictions on the DPRK than there are already. War hasn't exactly become more attractive with the other side now adding nukes to a long list of deterrents.

Little the world can do about this really, but hope that the South Koreans can work something out with Kimmy's successor.

The US is the defender of Democracy.


*falls off his chair laughing*

whats the panic.

they have been open about their weapons programme and now they will relax a bit now no-one can attack them.

this isnt doomsday by any stretch

S.Korea says Richter Magnitude 3.8 and USGS says 4.2.

Any info on what the Chinese and N.Koreans are saying?
China has strongly denounced the test (During Abe's visit).

As for Japan and nukes, it would be akin to Americans suddenly being scared out of having nuclear arms.

It MAY happen, but this won't be the straw. There's still a lot of roll and anger at the central goverment for accepting the USS George Washington to replace the USS Kitty Hawk and a possible release of raditation by the USS Honolulu made headlines.

The conservatives in the Diet may like the idea, but it is still a taboo subject with the Japanese population and I don't forsee the central government challenging the general population, especially as it's still trying to figure out where the people of Japan fit into things after Koizumi.

whats the panic.

they have been open about their weapons programme and now they will relax a bit now no-one can attack them.

this isnt doomsday by any stretch

As has been said, it's a long way from detonating a nuclear device in a controlled environment, to dropping one from a plane, or topping a missile with one.

If anything they'll be more skittish because their patron is going to be pissed as fuck at them.

I wonder if China will suddenly just cut it's normal aid to Kim Bomb Ill? That will cripple NK.

Well, there's an OPLAN for this, that was exercised out of Seymour-Johnson AFB four or five times during the Clinton Admin. It involves nuking the shit out of North Korea.

There's more than one.

*falls off his chair laughing*

Yuck it up, twit. :p

Question is was it actually a nuke or did Kim just bury a couple thousand pounds of TNT and set it off to simulate one?

Question is was it actually a nuke or did Kim just bury a couple thousand pounds of TNT and set it off to simulate one?

You'd need two million pounds of TNT to simulate a tiny, tiny nuke, that's a lot of boom.

That'd be a two megaton blast, which would most likely be a multi-stage device. Rather ambitious for a starter program. There are nukes in the few kiloton range, which is certainly possible to fake with TNT.

That'd be a two megaton blast, which would most likely be a multi-stage device. Rather ambitious for a starter program. There are nukes in the few kiloton range, which is certainly possible to fake with TNT.

No, that would be a one kilton blast.

one ton = 2000 pounds
one kiloton = 1000 tons

2000*1000=2,000,000

Don't worry, I made the exact same math mistake today.

It is more likely that if Kim does decide to use his nuke(s), it will be against the people of North Korea itself. Think about it, yeah they have all these missiles and such but it is unlikely they have the know how to construct a warhead of a high enough efficiency to be small enough to mount on a missile. Even if they did, Kim Jong Il has nothing to gain from using them on neighbouring countries (as many have pointed out). What is more likely however, is a bunch of miscreatants (in the eyes of Kim) stirring up trouble for his regime or (less likely) an invasion to remove him from power.

This is a doomsday device for North Korea.

We have to remember we are dealing with a dictator that is full of himself. It's blantantly obvious he does not give a sh.t about the people of the land - more sanctions won't do much - all he cares about is his own personnal wealth and power, and the best way to maintain that power is to threaten to kill everyone close by if anyone tries to kill or oust him. It's MAD on a national scale.


...at least that's how I see it. :rolleyes:

Supposedly if it was a nuke, it was far smaller than the Trinity/Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombs in terms of yeild.

wheres the sense in having nuclear weapons anyway? if n. korea will "use" their bomb they basicly destroy their own country or at least will have radioactivity in their country. oh... how smart.. -.-
building bombs that destroy a big part of the world if used is... cant find a word saying how stupid.

cant find a word saying how stupid.

It's typically regarded as it being totally batshit insane. Kim has a very distorted view of reality, and he's come to the conclusion that not only is he the head of state and government in the DPRK, but that he is the DPRK embodied in a single person.

Man... we really need to do something quickly. The time is quickly approaching where North Korea will be able to successfully defend itself by nuclear means.


There is a rumour that North Korea's subterranean infrastructure is large and developed enough to maintain a skeleton population for several generations. And that it could continue to wage war from within those sheltered tunnels... although that might just be a simple case of the World filling in the blanks, I wouldn't put it past Pyongyang... it does sound very Juche.

No, that would be a one kilton blast.

one ton = 2000 pounds
one kiloton = 1000 tons

2000*1000=2,000,000

Don't worry, I made the exact same math mistake today.

Actually I didn't catch that you switched between tons and pounds. Two million pounds, while sounding impressive is not a great deal. To demonstrate the company I work for has 45 trailers, each one loaded with 80,000lbs on any given day. That's 360,000lbs capacity. Not really a great deal of stuff. I'm uncertain how dense TNT is, but putting together a few million pounds of the stuff wouldn't be impractically difficult.

Hell there are truck stops that have more than 2 million pounds of freight sitting around.

Man... we really need to do something quickly. The time is quickly approaching where North Korea will be able to successfully defend itself by nuclear means.

Even so, nuclear weapons aren't very useful if you lack the means to deliver them...chances are, we'd take out their nukes before they could even launch them. And, now that NK has totally pissed off China they're pretty much out of allies in the region.

There is a rumour that North Korea's subterranean infrastructure is large and developed enough to maintain a skeleton population for several generations. And that it could continue to wage war from within those sheltered tunnels... although that might just be a simple case of the World filling in the blanks, I wouldn't put it past Pyongyang... it does sound very Juche.

But what would they do about feeding/equipping/arming their population? They can barely feed people as is, let alone stockpile enough to shelter them for decades; they can't even operate an air force or field armored units because of lack of fuel, and they can barely arm their soldiers with guns and ammunition...they're entirely broke.

America is bogged down in Iraq against rag-tag Iraqi militias (not governmental troops, just civilians with AK 47s) now can you picture the outcome if America attacked North Korea? At least Saddam didn't have a nuke to deter Bush and his cronies from attacking him, Jim proved that he's got one and not scared to use it (I'm sure American administrative would think twice before attacking such a country as North Korea). Now America and the rest of anti-North Korea countries must find a much calmer and more rational way in solving this dispute instead of hinting military threats and economic sanctions, further alienating North Korea. North Korea should not be treated like an amateur from the international community and America cannot solve everyone's problems especially problems they (America) are involved in :D.

It's typically regarded as it being totally batshit insane. Kim has a very distorted view of reality, and he's come to the conclusion that not only is he the head of state and government in the DPRK, but that he is the DPRK embodied in a single person.
I have heard many make statements regarding Kim's mental health. Can you point me to proof to what you claim, that he is in fact "batshit insane", and that he thinks that "he is the DPRK embodied in a single person" or is that just "propaganda"?

But what would they do about feeding/equipping/arming their population? They can barely feed people as is, let alone stockpile enough to shelter them for decades; they can't even operate an air force or field armored units because of lack of fuel, and they can barely arm their soldiers with guns and ammunition...they're entirely broke.

*shrug* Hydroponic farms? They don't need to feed everybody, just the useful people.

Maybe they are broke from building expensive subterranean lairs?

I have heard many make statements regarding Kim's mental health. Can you point me to proof to what you claim, that he is in fact "batshit insane", and that he thinks that "he is the DPRK embodied in a single person" or is that just "propaganda"?

Man, just look at him. Look at his actions, look at his behaviour. He's quite clearly insane. There is intelligence to back this up, but I think that it is fairly verifiable by you or I.

America is bogged down in Iraq against rag-tag Iraqi militias (not governmental troops, just civilians with AK 47s) now can you picture the outcome if America attacked North Korea? At least Saddam didn't have a nuke to deter Bush and his cronies from attacking him, Jim proved that he's got one and not scared to use it (I'm sure American administrative would think twice before attacking such a country as North Korea). Now America and the rest of anti-North Korea countries must find a much calmer and more rational way in solving this dispute instead of hinting military threats and economic sanctions, further alienating North Korea. North Korea should not be treated like an amateur from the international community and America cannot solve everyone's problems especially problems they (America) are involved in :D.

We will never engage another nuclear armed nation unless given absolutely no other choice IE we get bombed. Americans are too squemish about casualties.

The UN has called for an emergency session at 9:30am est. To do what? A call for sanctions? I really don't think the world can withstand 10 yrs of resolutions and sanctions. Do you really think N. Korea cares about sanctions or threats? I don't think so since the USA did warn him of the Nukes. He still went forward with it. China, Japan, and Russia all warned him too. Did he care? I think not.

How do you deal with a dictator like him. He doesn't care about his people. I think if he gets invaded, we'll all be doing him a favor on the civilian casualty level that would occur.

I think we, the USA, should leave it to China, Russia, and Japan to deal with. People don't like USA's stance. Let us sit this one out for a change.

America is bogged down in Iraq against rag-tag Iraqi militias (not governmental troops, just civilians with AK 47s) now can you picture the outcome if America attacked North Korea? At least Saddam didn't have a nuke to deter Bush and his cronies from attacking him, Jim proved that he's got one and not scared to use it (I'm sure American administrative would think twice before attacking such a country as North Korea). Now America and the rest of anti-North Korea countries must find a much calmer and more rational way in solving this dispute instead of hinting military threats and economic sanctions, further alienating North Korea. North Korea should not be treated like an amateur from the international community and America cannot solve everyone's problems especially problems they (America) are involved in :D.

Well rest assured if Kim is stupid and suicidal enough to send a nuke over here, not only will we shoot it down over the Pacific Ocean, we will make sure that N. Korea is wiped off the map. N. Korea may be sending over a fire cracker, but we're sending over much much bigger, and in much bigger numbers.

America is bogged down in Iraq against rag-tag Iraqi militias (not governmental troops, just civilians with AK 47s) now can you picture the outcome if America attacked North Korea? At least Saddam didn't have a nuke to deter Bush and his cronies from attacking him, Jim proved that he's got one and not scared to use it (I'm sure American administrative would think twice before attacking such a country as North Korea). Now America and the rest of anti-North Korea countries must find a much calmer and more rational way in solving this dispute instead of hinting military threats and economic sanctions, further alienating North Korea. North Korea should not be treated like an amateur from the international community and America cannot solve everyone's problems especially problems they (America) are involved in :D.
I agree with what you have posted. Ever since the Bush administration came to office in 2001, they have taken a hardline approach towards NK, even to the point of Bush declaring that NK is part of the "Axis of Terror". The US has issued many threats and the result is that NK aggressively pursued nuclear weapons. Since Bush has declared that "we don't negotiate with terrorists", and invaded Iraq, obviously NK decided that the risk to further nuclear weaponry was less than the risk of the US invading/bombing NK if they did nothing.

Further sanctions and attempting to starve the NKs just might make matters far worse and perhaps the people of South Korea, and maybe Japan will pay the price?

*shrug* Hydroponic farms? They don't need to feed everybody, just the useful people.

Nope, they're pretty much out of fertilizer, power supplies are falling apart and they don't have fuel to run their machinery...they can't even run regular farms properly, let alone hydroponic ones.

Maybe they are broke from building expensive subterranean lairs?

I wouldn't doubt that such projects have something to do with it; there's something seriously wrong with your country when you spend 2% of GDP on a hotel and can't finish it due to lack of materials...

I agree with what you have posted. Ever since the Bush administration came to office in 2001, they have taken a hardline approach towards NK, even to the point of Bush declaring that NK is part of the "Axis of Terror". The US has issued many threats and the result is that NK aggressively pursued nuclear weapons. Since Bush has declared that "we don't negotiate with terrorists", and invaded Iraq, obviously NK decided that the risk to further nuclear weaponry was less than the risk of the US invading/bombing NK if they did nothing.

Further sanctions and attempting to starve the NKs just might make matters far worse and perhaps the people of South Korea, and maybe Japan will pay the price?

Actually, I believe Bush called N. Korea a part of the "Axis of Evil".
By the way, if you want to blame Bush, go right ahead.
If you think that N. Korea waited until Bush got into office with his rhettoric is the cause of N. Korea's nuke issues, you're dead wrong. Do you have any idea of how many years it takes to learn and to get the proper ingredients for the nuke capabilities. A hell of a lot longer than 6 yrs.

Man, just look at him. Look at his actions, look at his behaviour. He's quite clearly insane. There is intelligence to back this up, but I think that it is fairly verifiable by you or I.
If there is intelligence to "back this up", where can one access that "intelligence"? You can tell if a person is insane just by looking at them? What actions has he done that proves that he is "insane"?

If there is intelligence to "back this up", where can one access that "intelligence"? You can tell if a person is insane just by looking at them? What actions has he done that proves that he is "insane"?

When a leader put his own selfish needs and want over the best intrest for his country, then I'd think it's safe to say he's insane.

If there is intelligence to "back this up", where can one access that "intelligence"? You can tell if a person is insane just by looking at them? What actions has he done that proves that he is "insane"?

Umm...allowed millions of his people to starve to death because he prefers to spend his money on the military? Or perhaps the kidnapping of Japanese citizens and holding them for ransom, or maybe it's his penchant for building gigantic monuments to himself and his father while his people can't get basic medical care, education, clothing, electricity, or anything else? Maybe it's the gigantic personality cult he's created that reveres him as a God...

Umm...allowed millions of his people to starve to death because he prefers to spend his money on the military? Or perhaps the kidnapping of Japanese citizens and holding them for ransom, or maybe it's his penchant for building gigantic monuments to himself and his father while his people can't get basic medical care, education, clothing, electricity, or anything else? Maybe it's the gigantic personality cult he's created that reveres him as a God...

Pretty much sums it up right there.

The UN has called for an emergency session at 9:30am est. To do what? A call for sanctions?
Probably.

I really don't think the world can withstand 10 yrs of resolutions and sanctions.
Straw Man Alert!

Do you really think N. Korea cares about sanctions or threats? I don't think so since the USA did warn him of the Nukes. He still went forward with it. China, Japan, and Russia all warned him too. Did he care? I think not.
Yes, I think they do. The fact that North Korea considers sanctions a declaration of war by the UN shows that the actually do care.

How do you deal with a dictator like him. He doesn't care about his people. I think if he gets invaded, we'll all be doing him a favor on the civilian casualty level that would occur.
I agree with you. An invasion would probably be the best thing for North Korea, at least better than any number of years of famine and extermination.

I think we, the USA, should leave it to China, Russia, and Japan to deal with. People don't like USA's stance. Let us sit this one out for a change.
Well, everybody actually seems to agree with the USA's "we don't like this nuke shit" stance. What's your point?

Umm...allowed millions of his people to starve to death because he prefers to spend his money on the military? Or perhaps the kidnapping of Japanese citizens and holding them for ransom, or maybe it's his penchant for building gigantic monuments to himself and his father while his people can't get basic medical care, education, clothing, electricity, or anything else? Maybe it's the gigantic personality cult he's created that reveres him as a God...
That makes him evil, not insane.

Actually, I believe Bush called N. Korea a part of the "Axis of Evil".
By the way, if you want to blame Bush, go right ahead.
If you think that N. Korea waited until Bush got into office with his rhettoric is the cause of N. Korea's nuke issues, you're dead wrong. Do you have any idea of how many years it takes to learn and to get the proper ingredients for the nuke capabilities. A hell of a lot longer than 6 yrs.

I must say i heavily agree with this thought. Im no fan of bush, but the fact is that it takes longer than 6 years. My sentiment is that this isn't good regardless how it ends. Its also true the U.S. often polices the world, but the major problem is the UN itself is near useless at stopping dictators and the like. Fact is MANY of the dictators left in this world don't care about the people in their countries. Those are some of my thoughts anyways.

I have heard many make statements regarding Kim's mental health. Can you point me to proof to what you claim, that he is in fact "batshit insane", and that he thinks that "he is the DPRK embodied in a single person" or is that just "propaganda"?

We can ascribe severe paranoia to Mr. Kim, that's for certain.

We can also ascribe delusions of grandeu to Mr. Kim as well. The mass performances, the pipe dream military projects, the grandiose military parades all show us signs of someone who has come to a conclusion of immense personal greatness, in spite of his people, and the economic situation of his country.

Not to mention the whole mystical birth thing...

Well, everybody actually seems to agree with the USA's "we don't like this nuke shit" stance. What's your point?

It's one thing to agree that we don't like it. It's quite another to agree what to do about it, aside from sending a very nasty letter from the UN saying just how much we don't like it.

I'm not too worried about N.Korea, really.

1) They have a handful of nuclear weapons, at most. The countries opposing them have tens of thousands.

2) They have no backup. If they committed an act of war, not even their buddies China would back them up.

3) Their leader isn't retarded. He likes his wealth, power and opulence. He just wants nukes to prevent an Allied invasion that would oust him.

That makes him evil, not insane.

Well, I'd say the God complex and megalomaina as well as the total disregard for others probably pushes him to the insane camp as well as the evil one.

But then again, a lot of evil people tend to be on the insane side anyway...

Yes, I think they do. The fact that North Korea considers sanctions a declaration of war by the UN shows that the actually do care.


The DPRK is still technically at war with the UN, as there is only an armistice, and not a treaty.

The DPRK is still technically at war with the UN, as there is only an armistice, and not a treaty.

We should have finished them while we had the chance...

Well rest assured if Kim is stupid and suicidal enough to send a nuke over here, not only will we shoot it down over the Pacific Ocean, we will make sure that N. Korea is wiped off the map. N. Korea may be sending over a fire cracker, but we're sending over much much bigger, and in much bigger numbers.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3539/nukemd0.png

:p

Actually, I believe Bush called N. Korea a part of the "Axis of Evil".
By the way, if you want to blame Bush, go right ahead.
If you think that N. Korea waited until Bush got into office with his rhettoric is the cause of N. Korea's nuke issues, you're dead wrong. Do you have any idea of how many years it takes to learn and to get the proper ingredients for the nuke capabilities. A hell of a lot longer than 6 yrs.
The first nuclear bomb (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/dp45at.html)was constructed and deployed in less than two years, and they were the pioneers. Try again.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3539/nukemd0.png

:p

lol

Well rest assured if Kim is stupid and suicidal enough to send a nuke over here, not only will we shoot it down over the Pacific Ocean, we will make sure that N. Korea is wiped off the map. N. Korea may be sending over a fire cracker, but we're sending over much much bigger, and in much bigger numbers.
All this tough talk is so much bull that it is ridiculous. You forget that NK is right beside China. Methinks that before the US obliterates NK, one would make sure that China would not retaliate?

The first nuclear bomb (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/dp45at.html)was constructed and deployed in less than two years, and they were the pioneers. Try again.

You have to remember, though, that the US had a lot more resources for the nuclear program than North Korea does now. We had access to huge amounts of funding, equipment/materials, infrastructure, research facilities and skilled scientists and engineers. North Korea has been struggling with near economic-collapse since the early 1990's, so it takes them a lot longer to achieve what we were able to with the comparatively limitless resources of the US in WWII.

They did their first tests in 1994 and then they agreed to halt the process until 1999 or 2000, when they violated the agreement and began work on missles and nuclear enrichment programs.

We should have finished them while we had the chance...

We tried, but that asshole Mao got in the way.

Umm...allowed millions of his people to starve to death because he prefers to spend his money on the military? Or perhaps the kidnapping of Japanese citizens and holding them for ransom, or maybe it's his penchant for building gigantic monuments to himself and his father while his people can't get basic medical care, education, clothing, electricity, or anything else? Maybe it's the gigantic personality cult he's created that reveres him as a God...
None of that proves that he is in fact "insane"?

All this tough talk is so much bull that it is ridiculous. You forget that NK is right beside China. Methinks that before the US obliterates NK, one would make sure that China would not retaliate?

N. Korea called China about an hr before doing the test to give them the heads up. China in return notified the USA of N. Korea's intentions. Sounds like it won't take much to get China to side with the USA on nuke issue with N. Korea.

You have to remember, though, that the US had a lot more resources for the nuclear program than North Korea does now. We had access to huge amounts of funding, equipment/materials, infrastructure, research facilities and skilled scientists and engineers. North Korea has been struggling with near economic-collapse since the early 1990's, so it takes them a lot longer to achieve what we were able to with the comparatively limitless resources of the US in WWII.

They did their first tests in 1994 and then they agreed to halt the process until 1999 or 2000, when they violated the agreement and began work on missles and nuclear enrichment programs.

I think all that is pretty evenly balanced out by the fact that NK could pretty much download plans for bombs from the internet.

All this tough talk is so much bull that it is ridiculous. You forget that NK is right beside China. Methinks that before the US obliterates NK, one would make sure that China would not retaliate?

China has been rebuffed by NK, and they are very worried that any NK nuclear test will motivate other nations in the region to develop nuclear weapons as a measure of self defense...and if Taiwan develops a nuke, there goes any attempt to get the Republic of China back under the control of the mainland.

Plus, NK is utterly worthless as an ally. The US is a lot more useful and influential to China than NK; the only reason they even bother with them is because of Cold War ties and the old-guard Communists in the Chinese government.

N. Korea called China about an hr before doing the test to give them the heads up. China in return notified the USA of N. Korea's intentions. Sounds like it won't take much to get China to side with the USA on nuke issue with N. Korea.

Letting the US know that a test was planned is a long way from not being too bothered by a large radioactive cloud floating over your territory.

I think all that is pretty evenly balanced out by the fact that NK could pretty much download plans for bombs from the internet.

Plans are good, but they don't have the materials to build and test them in a short timeframe; they can get plans no problem, but they simply don't have the resources to proceed with enrichment, construction, or testing at the same rate as other nations.

I don't even think they have any significant uranium deposits in their country, and they can no longer get subsidized or free supplies from Russia or China.

You have to remember, though, that the US had a lot more resources for the nuclear program than North Korea does now. We had access to huge amounts of funding, equipment/materials, infrastructure, research facilities and skilled scientists and engineers. North Korea has been struggling with near economic-collapse since the early 1990's, so it takes them a lot longer to achieve what we were able to with the comparatively limitless resources of the US in WWII.
I am not doubting that, I was just responding to KB's claim that it takes longer than 6 years to build nukes.

They did their first tests in 1994 and then they agreed to halt the process until 1999 or 2000, when they violated the agreement and began work on missles and nuclear enrichment programs.
I believe that the timeline posted earlier suggests that NK escalated nuclear development programs after Bush was elected and especially after Bush declared NK as part of the Axis of Evil?

All this tough talk is so much bull that it is ridiculous. You forget that NK is right beside China. Methinks that before the US obliterates NK, one would make sure that China would not retaliate?

If you'd notice, the PRC is pretty damn displeased with the DPRK at the moment, their irritating little lapdog has officially gone off of the leash, and they're probably worrying that they can no longer effectively control them, and not only that, but the DPRK blatantly thumbed their nose at the PRC by setting them bomb of not far from the Yalu.

I'd see PRC military action as far more likely than US/ROK military action right now, actually.

All this tough talk is so much bull that it is ridiculous. You forget that NK is right beside China. Methinks that before the US obliterates NK, one would make sure that China would not retaliate?

Trust me, N. Korea tries to send a nuke to us or anyone of our allies, then China will say "Fuck you Kim, you're on your own."

N. Korea called China about an hr before doing the test to give them the heads up. China in return notified the USA of N. Korea's intentions. Sounds like it won't take much to get China to side with the USA on nuke issue with N. Korea.
Pure speculation on your part. I personally believe that China would be unwilling to have all that nuclear radiation/fallout from destroying NK, drifting towards their country.

I would suggest that China would not give a green light to the nuclear destruction of NK.

The first nuclear bomb (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/dp45at.html)was constructed and deployed in less than two years, and they were the pioneers. Try again.

Okay, how's this...... http://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/dprkchron.asp

Some 2 years.

Trust me, N. Korea tries to send a nuke to us or anyone of our allies, then China will say "Fuck you Kim, you're on your own."
Why the hell should I trust you? You, like the rest of us, can only guess?

I am not doubting that, I was just responding to KB's claim that it takes longer than 6 years to build nukes.

Most of the time, it doesn't; the Soviets did it in 4 years, although China didn't have a nuke until 1965.

I believe that the timeline posted earlier suggests that NK escalated nuclear development programs after Bush was elected and especially after Bush declared NK as part of the Axis of Evil?

I wouldn't doubt it; North Korea probably saw the way the wind was blowing and decided to take advantage of the fact that our forces would be stretched thin and preoccupied in Iraq or Afghanistan, and decided to go ahead with enrichment. As a side bonus, if they could get a nuke in a decent time frame they might be able to avoid US retaliation; we've been tied down in Iraq for over three years now, and that's a huge time window to make progress on nuclear weapons especially if you've done some prior work on the program.

Of course, NK nukes piss off China considerably; I wonder if the North Korean government took that in to consideration?

Okay, how's this...... http://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/dprkchron.asp

Some 2 years.
You obviously did not read the link I provided? The very first nuclear weapon was built and detonated within two years.

Trust me, N. Korea tries to send a nuke to us or anyone of our allies, then China will say "Fuck you Kim, you're on your own."

I think the PRC is already pretty damn close, now that they DPRK has set off a nuke in direct violation of their demands. This is a black eye on the PRC's reputation internationally, and they don't like that at all. They kept Kim afloat as a strategic toy, a pest to bother the US with, thinking they could control him, he is making clear that they cannot do that, and it's embarassing.

Why the hell should I trust you? You, like the rest of us, can only guess?

If there was a US and ROK/DPRK war, who do you think they'd allign with? The major trading partner, who's investment has been critical to the development of the modern PRC, or with some Cold War backwater who hasn't gotten the memo that Stalinism has failed.

Pure speculation on your part. I personally believe that China would be unwilling to have all that nuclear radiation/fallout from destroying NK, drifting towards their country.

I would suggest that China would not give a green light to the nuclear destruction of NK.

Actually, the fallout would drift towards Japan, given the local upper atmospheric wind currents.

I really don't think that the USA will ask permission of anyone to do what we feel is best. We will try and work with the world in deciding the best way to deal with N. Korea (only having France to rebuke anything the USA suggests, of Course) If there isn't any agreeable solution, we will work with the allies who support ridding the world of the likes of Kim.

Honestly, I feel China will be taking the leading role with N. Korea.

Bottom Line: N. Korea must be dealt with in a timely manner. We really don't have the time that the UN has. Let's "Git 'ir Done"

Why the hell should I trust you? You, like the rest of us, can only guess?

I think China is deathly afraid of an Asian arms race; if Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan all get nukes then they are effectively contained and unable to pursue their Taiwan reunification policy anymore.

Most of the time, it doesn't; the Soviets did it in 4 years, although China didn't have a nuke until 1965.
Exactly my point. The fact remains that technology has advanced greatly since then. The hardest part would be securing the necessary equipment. NK has enough uranium for the raw materials. And now they have the ability.

I wouldn't doubt it; North Korea probably saw the way the wind was blowing and decided to take advantage of the fact that our forces would be stretched thin and preoccupied in Iraq or Afghanistan, and decided to go ahead with enrichment. As a side bonus, if they could get a nuke in a decent time frame they might be able to avoid US retaliation; we've been tied down in Iraq for over three years now, and that's a huge time window to make progress on nuclear weapons especially if you've done some prior work on the program.
Although I personally don't like the idea of nuclear proliferation, I can't blame NK for speeding up their nuclear program when you have powerful countries like the US threatening them.

Of course, NK nukes piss off China considerably; I wonder if the North Korean government took that in to consideration?
Perhaps this will become more of a regional concern rather than a US concern? I don't think that the US can act unilaterally on this matter. It would be insane to do so.

You obviously did not read the link I provided? The very first nuclear weapon was built and detonated within two years.

I did read your post but I wasn't "obviously" talking of the USA who has much better advancement, technology, and intel compared to N. Korea.

I thought it would be "obvious" in the post RE: N. Korea Nukes, would be a topic of N. Korea Nukes. I may be wrong. I will try to be more specific in my future postings from now on.

I think there's something deeply disturbing about a nation that has spent that kind of money researching a weapon that they don't really have the capability of deploying in a safe manner while the majority of it's people subsist on crispy and flavorful rocks and dirt.

But at least Iraq is no longer an iminent threat. They never were, but let's not split hairs. ;)

Perhaps this will become more of a regional concern rather than a US concern? I don't think that the US can act unilaterally on this matter. It would be insane to do so.

It already is.

The ROK is steaming and the Japanese are pissed. The PRC is is mildly embarassed, and is going to get really angry, really soon. The Russians don't care, because the only thing of note they have in the area is Vladivostok.

There's a reason the US insists on six-party talks with the DPRK, we're not the only one's with a bet in this game, and we want to make sure the other folks who count get a say.

If there was a US and ROK/DPRK war, who do you think they'd allign with? The major trading partner, who's investment has been critical to the development of the modern PRC, or with some Cold War backwater who hasn't gotten the memo that Stalinism has failed.
We can only guess, but no one should take anything for certainty in this matter.

When nuclear weapons are being deployed, no one is thinking about who their trading partners are. They will think about self preservation first and foremost.

Actually, according to my Dad, they can't be sure if it actually happened. Kim Jung Il claims it, but aparantly there was no seismic activity in that region last night. Therefore, it is extremely unlikely that a nuclear explosion of any kind even occured.

Here's a better idea
http://www.deepastronomy.com/how-to-destroy-earth-with-a-coffee-can.html

Why the hell should I trust you? You, like the rest of us, can only guess?

States, especially Oligarchic states like China, tend to be quite predictable. They have a set of defined, and widely known policy aims, and will always almost go for the option that best fulfills those aims. It is only Autocracies like the DPRK that display irregular behaviour, and even then its not too difficult to interpret.

Has any revalation been made as to the yeild of the device?

Has any revalation been made as to the yeild of the device?

Like I said, probably none. It might not even have happened, as there was no seismic activity.

Like I said, probably none. It might not even have happened, as there was no seismic activity.

The USGS is now reporting a 4.2 magnitude seismic event from the area...

I think there's something deeply disturbing about a nation that has spent that kind of money researching a weapon that they don't really have the capability of deploying in a safe manner while the majority of it's people subsist on crispy and flavorful rocks and dirt.

But at least Iraq is no longer an iminent threat. They never were, but let's not split hairs. ;)
No, no, lets talk about split hairs!!

http://www.tvshopping-solutions.co.uk/product_images/split%20free3_200mm.jpg

The DPRK is still technically at war with the UN, as there is only an armistice, and not a treaty.

Yeah, and the DPRK sees sanctions a breach of that Armistice. Trust me, I know my history trivia. ;)

Like I said, probably none. It might not even have happened, as there was no seismic activity.

But both the US and Japan said they had detected seismic waves. Russia said it was "100% certain" a nuclear test had occurred

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6033457.stm

Has any revalation been made as to the yeild of the device?

There are conflicting reports about that. South Korea says it was about .5 kilotons, Russia says it was 10 to 15 kilotons. *nod*

No, no, lets talk about split hairs!!

http://www.tvshopping-solutions.co.uk/product_images/split%20free3_200mm.jpg

Oooh! Shiny! :)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6033457.stm

Ok then. Thank you! I can now stick it to my dad! W00t!

The USGS is now reporting a 4.2 magnitude seismic event from the area...

south Korea had reported 3.something erlier today. I was tyhinking in terms of kilotons though.

You have to remember, though, that the US had a lot more resources for the nuclear program than North Korea does now. We had access to huge amounts of funding, equipment/materials, infrastructure, research facilities and skilled scientists and engineers. North Korea has been struggling with near economic-collapse since the early 1990's, so it takes them a lot longer to achieve what we were able to with the comparatively limitless resources of the US in WWII.

They did their first tests in 1994 and then they agreed to halt the process until 1999 or 2000, when they violated the agreement and began work on missles and nuclear enrichment programs.

US did it 50 years ago. Today it wouldn't take anywhere near as long nor would it be nearly as expensive. The hard part is the nuclear material, after that any idiot who can follow directions can rig up a nuke.

US did it 50 years ago. Today it wouldn't take anywhere near as long nor would it be nearly as expensive. The hard part is the nuclear material, after that any idiot who can follow directions can rig up a nuke.

North Korea's economic and technological development easily comparable to that of the US in the 1940's and 1950's; even the military is 1970's/80's tech at best, provided that it works. Their economy is effectively 30-40 years out of date or more.

In fact, North Korea's GDP is equal to 1/5 the US GDP in nominal dollars back in 1945; in constant dollars, it's only 2.5% of the 1945 US level. They simply don't have the economic resources to fund a nuclear weapons project at US levels.

They made thier own fissionables right? or did they by the urranium ore to enrich?

States, especially Oligarchic states like China, tend to be quite predictable. They have a set of defined, and widely known policy aims, and will always almost go for the option that best fulfills those aims. It is only Autocracies like the DPRK that display irregular behaviour, and even then its not too difficult to interpret.
When the parameters change, the policy changes? I can only imagine that China would not look kindly upon the obliteration of NK, no matter their feelings towards the people there. No one really knows what is going to happen when and if nukes start to fly.

I suggest the movie War Games. :D

I think now is the time for Japan to start up it's own militatry (I think they still use the US militatry on offense, they just use their militatry on defense. Then maybe consider making some Nuclear arms.

If China wants to recover from the black eye Kim gave it (remember China said they could control Kim) they need to cut off all ties with N. Korea.

The time for talk has ended, now is the time for action!

They made thier own fissionables right? or did they by the urranium ore to enrich?

I think they would have enriched the Uranium enough to run a fast breeder reactor to activate U-238 to produce weapons-grade Plutonium, and then use that in a spherical compression bomb.

Here's a better idea
http://www.deepastronomy.com/how-to-destroy-earth-with-a-coffee-can.html
It's coffee time!! :p

Ok then. Thank you! I can now stick it to my dad! W00t!
"And if MY calculations are correct, we're all going to die horribly! HA HA ha ha ha...."

u also have to think how south korea will react... i mean they have their families there only a few generations apart.