NationStates Jolt Archive

Well I feel bad now, after almost believing that the Constitution Party (http://www.constitutionparty.com/) is suppose to be America's "true" Christian party, I have now discovered that I was way wrong! And I am a Christian myself! Southern Baptist and still going strong into my 9th year as a Christian. :)

At first I noticed that the Constitution party had some extreme views, such as saying that giving any Foreign Aid at all is unconstitutitional even when it comes to health crises such as the AIDS epidemic; and they call themselves compassionate? How can they call themselves compassionate and not do anything to help the sick, the poor and the hungry? After reading this I thought that this party needs some serious reform!

Then after reading this site (http://www.theamericanview.com/) I began to sense that their was much racism in the party and extreme grassroots beliefs. I began to get the sense that if the Constitution Party had it's way, the slaves would never have been set free and the Civil Rights era of the 1960's would have never taken place! If this party had it's way, all African-Americans would once again become slaves in America, all the amendments except the first 10 would be abolished and they would give all the states except the original 13 colonies back to the Indians! Not to mention they would enforce a way of life that would involve spreading the faith through force, by the sword (much like the Puritans did and also much like a terrorist). Innocent people would be executed for crimes they didn't commit--take the Salem witch trials, for example.

Jesus told us to love our enemies, not hate them. As Christians we are suppose to spread the faith through love and understanding, not force it down people's throats!

Go ahead and read this Constitution Party website (http://www.theamericanview.com/) and see if you don't get the same senses that I get, that the Constitution Party's vision of theocracy in America is the wrong way to have a theocracy. And don't forget to read their party platform (http://www.constitutionparty.com/party_platform.php) either. And to think that this is the fastest growing third-party in America! :mad:

DON'T JOIN AND DON'T GIVE THEM ANY MONEY!!!

Well that kinda sucks.

I honestly had trouble noticing that the Constitution Party wasn't in power given the current administration.

I didn't.

The Constitution Party is one of the worst named political parties ever.

THey're nothing but a bunch of religious busybodies who think they know how to live our lives better than we do and are willing to sell the country piece by piece to the highest corporate bidders.

They're like SuperRepublicans. :p

Not really.

The Constitution Party: What the hell is the Constitution Party?

http://www.constitutionparty.com/

They appear to be a little to the right of Rush Limbaugh. :p

Do they promote seeing if accused witches sink or float? The answer to this is important to me.

I'm having a swimming pool put in.

Do they promote seeing if accused witches sink or float? The answer to this is important to me.

I'm having a swimming pool put in.
Witches float because they're made of wood. Haven't you ever seen Monty Python and the Holy Grail?

Do they promote seeing if accused witches sink or float? The answer to this is important to me.

I'm having a swimming pool put in.

Couldn't tell ya, but just remember, this party thinks much like the Puritans thought, so all you can go on is that. ;)

Shit this is the Pat Robertson party basicly. Or even the Westbro party!

Theocracy at it's finest.

At least they're open about their racism and their desire to subjugate women, along with all the other crap--as opposed to the "christian" wing of the Republican party which is in favor of the same shit, but tries to hide it.

Shit this is the Pat Robertson party basicly. Or even the Westbro party!

Theocracy at it's finest.

Hold up there, buddy. You know that Westboro and Fred Phelps are not truly Baptists and not truly Christian, either. They have nothing to do with and are not even affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention. To make a long story short, Westboro is a cult group, plain and simple, and their tiny following of only about 70 people (mostly family members of Phelps') goes to show it.

But if you're referring the judgemental nature of the Constitution Party, then you are right, this party is VERY judgemental and that would align them pretty close to Westboro.

Jesus told us not to judge others, even those who are supposedly non-believers, or lest we ourselves will be judged.

DON'T JOIN AND DON'T GIVE THEM ANY MONEY!!!

Amen to that. I know I certainly won't be supporting that party in any form. I've disliked their agenda for years, because I think it's both a bastardization of the Constitution and Christianity. I happen to like the Constitution and Christianity, and I don't appreciate it when folks try to twist them to do the very things they should be used to oppose.

I guess if they did somehow acheive power, that "Up The Butt" thread would be kind of out of the question, huh? Except Jolt's a UK outfit, so maybe ...

As has been said, at least the Constitutionalists are up-front about God and Jesus and their platform. A small compensation.

and they call themselves compassionate? How can they call themselves compassionate and not do anything to help the sick, the poor and the hungry?


The fallacy in the above quoted statement resides in the assumption that assisting the sick and the poor requires action by the state. If anything, this reliance on the state reduces or eliminates the responsibility of each and every individual, worsening the free rider/collective property problem ("well, those people over there can handle it so I don't have to" multiplied by a whole lot 'o people), which in turn encourages inaction.

If anything, this reliance on the state reduces or eliminates the responsibility of each and every individual, worsening the free rider/collective property problem ("well, those people over there can handle it so I don't have to" multiplied by a whole lot 'o people), which in turn encourages inaction.

That is precisely what relying on private charity does.

Welfare programs require all taxpayers to give.

Hold up there, buddy. You know that Westboro and Fred Phelps are not truly Baptists and not truly Christian, either. I don't either they do not worship Christ nor God in my opinoin, they worship themselves. But this group does seem like the time that would agree with them. Perhaps they would like to make friends with the President of Iran, perhaps he could give them some pointers.

Well I feel bad now, after almost believing that the Constitution Party (http://www.constitutionparty.com/) is suppose to be America's "true" Christian party.If you think they're bad, just wait until you've seen the Christian Party...

That is precisely what relying on private charity does.


Of course. Which is why I would prefer self-reliant individuals (and mutual/cooperative association there amongst) to charity as well. At its core, "charity" is just as flawed a response as the welfare state.


Welfare programs require all taxpayers to give.

True; and once the tax collections are divided up among all the other uses it needs to go to (including the politicians political pork-barrel cause du jour), that which remains for the welfare state is far reduced. And even then, more disappears into the bottomless pits of bureaucracy. So the amount going to actually assist people is far smaller than the amount of taxes actually collected at the beginning of the process. Of course the taxpayer only sees that apparently large amount at the beginning and assumes that the sick and poor are well taken care of. This, combined with having had part of their income removed, means individuals are less likely to spend any more of their income on assisting the sick or poor on their own initiative. "I already did my part, let someone else do more."

The welfare state is plagued by exactly the same problem as "charity;" so what if contributions are mandatory?

Go ahead and read this Constitution Party website (http://www.theamericanview.com/) and see if you don't get the same senses that I get, that the Constitution Party's vision of theocracy in America is the wrong way to have a theocracy.
DON'T JOIN AND DON'T GIVE THEM ANY MONEY!!!

This means that you believe that there is a right way to have a theocracy in America?

This means that you believe that there is a right way to have a theocracy in America?

Nice catch, there.

This means that you believe that there is a right way to have a theocracy in America?

Nice catch, there.

I knew that someone would notice the way I worded that, eventually. :cool:

Yes, absolutely! ;)

I knew that someone would notice the way I worded that, eventually. :cool:

Yes, absolutely! ;)

Do explain.

I knew that someone would notice the way I worded that, eventually. :cool:

Yes, absolutely! ;)If you really want a civil war on your hands, that'll be the way to start it.

Well, I honestly believe that Karl Marx stole the economic ideas for a Communist society straight out of the Bible and then perveted them to his own twisted and evil ways.

The ideal Theocracy in America would be a mix of socialist/communist economic ideals, with right-wing personal and political ideals. Basically, it would be a system almost the same as Christian Communism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism), but much more Democratic. Their would still be elections, a Congress and a Judicial system, etc, because there must be accountability.

Until Jesus Christ returns to this earth to rule during the Millennial Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennial_Kingdom), there can be no true Christian Communism, because the perfect dictator needed to run it could only be Jesus Christ himself. :)

My, oh my. *Adds article to the list of 1,000,000 reasons why the US Constitution should be burned, and rewritten by a centrist government.* :P

Well, I honestly believe that Karl Marx stole the economic ideas for a Communist society straight out of the Bible and then perveted them to his own twisted and evil ways.

What "twisted and evil ways"?

The ideal Theocracy in America would be a mix of socialist/communist economic ideals, with right-wing personal and political ideals.

Human emancipation must involve both communism and the abolition of puritanism; one without the other will merely create a new class of oppressors and a new kind of oppression.

If you really want a civil war on your hands, that'll be the way to start it.

Hey, with the way this country is so dangerously divided right now, we may be headed in that directed. Of course, I would never want to wish such a thing upon this country, but sometimes a Civil War and a decisive victory is exactly what it takes to change the political direction of an entire nation. That's what happened after the first Civil War, anyway.

Ok, everyone, you can start flipping me off now. ;)

Well, I honestly believe that Karl Marx stole the economic ideas for a Communist society straight out of the Bible and then perveted them to his own twisted and evil ways.

Put the crack pipe down and back away slowly . . .

I guess everyone is laughing so hard right now that they can't post! :p

the Constitution Party's vision of theocracy in America is the wrong way to have a theocracy.

I agree with you on everything, but let me point out that NO theocracy is EVER right.

Witches float because they're made of wood. Haven't you ever seen Monty Python and the Holy Grail?

No; well, yes, but the test was to see if said witch was lighter than a duck. Needless to say, that doesn't work well.

I agree with you on everything, but let me point out that NO theocracy is EVER right.

No, the God-given primary role of government is to help save people from their sins by leading them to Christ. This is something that I agree with the Constitution party on, although I disagree with their method of helping to save people. The correct way to lead people to Christ is through love and understanding, not by force. :)

The Constitution Party is one of the worst named political parties ever.


In all fairness all they want is to revert society to as it was when the constitution was signed. Viewing the spirit of the constitution as requireing society be set in the way it was when written.

They want to live in an America governed according to the constitution as it was intended wen signed.

(I know they're racists using it as an excuse)

I think it is important to remember history, and for the vast majority of Americas history America was a very different place to what many would regard as what the constitution aims for today.

No, the God-given primary role of government is to help save people from their sins by leading them to Christ. This is something that I agree with the Constitution party on, although I disagree with their method of helping to save people. The correct way to lead people to Christ is through love and understanding, not by force. :)

And if your God isn't the most powerful one out there, or if there isn't one at all, what then?

Well, I honestly believe that Karl Marx stole the economic ideas for a Communist society straight out of the Bible and then perveted them to his own twisted and evil ways.

The ideal Theocracy in America would be a mix of socialist/communist economic ideals, with right-wing personal and political ideals. Basically, it would be a system almost the same as Christian Communism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism), but much more Democratic. Their would still be elections, a Congress and a Judicial system, etc, because there must be accountability.

Until Jesus Christ returns to this earth to rule during the Millennial Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennial_Kingdom), there can be no true Christian Communism, because the perfect dictator needed to run it could only be Jesus Christ himself. :)

I do not know which I find more disturbing.
The fact that you actually believe that The United States of America, a great nation founded on the concept that religion and government should never be mixed because the Founding Fathers knew all to well what happens when they are intertwined, should become a theocracy.
Or the retarded notion that Jesus Christ would be the "perfect dictator"!

Exactly how would Athiests, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Agnostics etc. be represented under your "Christian Communism"?

Why don't people understand that America has a Constitution and a Bill of Rights for a good reason?
Why can't they seem to understand the concept of seperation of church and state and realize that this seperation is in place to protect both the citizens of this country and the church.

Please before you go on spouting off about "Christian Communism" and "perfect dictators" do a little research into the founding of this nation.
Read some of the of works of Thomas Paine (http://www.ushistory.org/paine/) and Thomas Jefferson (http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/jefferson_papers/).

By proposing any form of theocracy you are going against the very fundemental priciples that this country was founded upon.

No, the God-given primary role of government is to help save people from their sins by leading them to Christ. Nope, its to ensure that we don't have to hunt and gather and don't get hit over the head with rocks by members of a different group.

That silly logic is what is being practiced in Iran right now. It's a bad idea.

In all fairness all they want is to revert society to as it was when the constitution was signed. Viewing the spirit of the constitution as requireing society be set in the way it was when written.

They want to live in an America governed according to the constitution as it was intended wen signed.

(I know they're racists using it as an excuse)

I think it is important to remember history, and for the vast majority of Americas history America was a very different place to what many would regard as what the constitution aims for today.

The Constitution was created that way intentionally. It wasn't meant to preserve the government of the time, it was meant to define the government of their ideals. Over time, government has evolved into a closer proximity of what the Framers intended, not drifted away from it. Well, mostly. We're drifting on a few rather alarming points. But the net drift is towad the ideal. To revert the country to the place it was when those ideals were first established would be lunacy. And I ought to know lunacy when I see it. :)

I do not know which I find more disturbing.
The fact that you actually believe that The United States of America, a great nation founded on the concept that religion and government should never be mixed because the Founding Fathers knew all to well what happens when they are intertwined, should become a theocracy.
Or the retarded notion that Jesus Christ would be the "perfect dictator"!

Exactly how would Athiests, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Agnostics etc. be represented under your "Christian Communism"?

Why don't people understand that America has a Constitution and a Bill of Rights for a good reason?
Why can't they seem to understand the concept of seperation of church and state and realize that this seperation is in place to protect both the citizens of this country and the church.

Please before you go on spouting off about "Christian Communism" and "perfect dictators" do a little research into the founding of this nation.
Read some of the of works of Thomas Paine (http://www.ushistory.org/paine/) and Thomas Jefferson (http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/jefferson_papers/).

By proposing any form of theocracy you are going against the very fundemental priciples that this country was founded upon.

Click Here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4613995330489978540&q=Founding+Fathers&hl=en)

Still haven't answered my question (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11776060&postcount=38).

Over time, government has evolved into a closer proximity of what the Framers intended, not drifted away from it. Well, mostly. We're drifting on a few rather alarming points. But the net drift is towad the ideal. To revert the country to the place it was when those ideals were first established would be lunacy. And I ought to know lunacy when I see it. :)
Without slurring the founding fathers, who were decent people judged by the standards of their culture at the time, but I doubt many of them indended women or black people (or non-whites) to be able to vote in future elections.

Particulary since women were still regarded mostly as property in the West and black people were not even regarded as being really human. I doubt it would ever have even occured to them that women or black people would ever vote.

Didn't they just allow male landowners the right to vote?

This is not to slur them, just to restate that. But a lot of what America has become (in terms of civil rights etc) this last 50-80 years has been due to changing ideals rather than a desire to follow the constitution

Click Here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4613995330489978540&q=Founding+Fathers&hl=en)
I've seen it. That guy wouldn't know historical accuracy if it sat on his face and told him to pleasure it.

Without slurring the founding fathers, who were decent people judged by the standards of their culture at the time, but I doubt many of them indended women or black people (or non-whites) to be able to vote in future elections.

Particulary since women were still regarded mostly as property in the West and black people were not even regarded as being really human. I doubt it would ever have even occured to them that women or black people would ever vote.

Didn't they just allow male landowners the right to vote?

This is not to slur them, just to restate that. But a lot of what America has become (in terms of civil rights etc) this last 50-80 years has been due to changing ideals rather than a desire to follow the constitutionWhat it's really been is a change in understanding of the basic principles written into the Constitution. That's why the Constitution was written in ambiguous and abstract language--it allows for interpretation and flexibility and helps it stay relevant in changing societies.

And if your God isn't the most powerful one out there, or if there isn't one at all, what then?

Obviously, that comes down to a question of faith, but that's really beside the point. People can still be saved, but it would their own personal choice. And remember, once saved, always saved. :)

Obviously, that comes down to a question of faith, but that's really beside the point. People can still be saved, but it would their own personal choice. And remember, once saved, always saved. :)

It's not beside the point. You're suggesting that the nation should be ruled by laws taken from a religion that may be anathema to me, and you refuse to even address the idea that some of us may find that completely offensive.

What it's really been is a change in understanding of the basic principles written into the Constitution. That's why the Constitution was written in ambiguous and abstract language--it allows for interpretation and flexibility and helps it stay relevant in changing societies.

I'd mostly agree with this. But that said - a lot of the ammendments were pretty straight forward. Still - even they are not exactly free from intepretation - their bluntness does not stop people going to a lot of effort trying to 'intepret' whatever they damn well want out of them sometimes.

Without slurring the founding fathers, who were decent people judged by the standards of their culture at the time, but I doubt many of them indended women or black people (or non-whites) to be able to vote in future elections.

Particulary since women were still regarded mostly as property in the West and black people were not even regarded as being really human. I doubt it would ever have even occured to them that women or black people would ever vote.

Didn't they just allow male landowners the right to vote?

This is not to slur them, just to restate that. But a lot of what America has become (in terms of civil rights etc) this last 50-80 years has been due to changing ideals rather than a desire to follow the constitution

Well, we'll never know for sure, and I'm certain that opinions varied among them. But these men were very intelligent scholars. I suspect that they knew the ramification of what they wrote. Did you know that many of the framers were of the opinion that the Bill of Rights was redundant? Many of them thought the government they set up would never need such a document to preserve those rights for the people. They thought everything in the Bill of Rights was a given. I would not have wanted to test that theory.

What it's really been is a change in understanding of the basic principles written into the Constitution. That's why the Constitution was written in ambiguous and abstract language--it allows for interpretation and flexibility and helps it stay relevant in changing societies.

No, I disagree. The Constitution was not meant to be a "living, breathing" document, as many leftists will tell you. That, I do believe, is an invention of the ACLU, eh eh um (American Communist Lawyers Union), eh eh um. :headbang:

I'd mostly agree with this. But that said - a lot of the ammendments were pretty straight forward. Still - even they are not exactly free from intepretation - their bluntness does not stop people going to a lot of effort trying to 'intepret' whatever they damn well want out of them sometimes.
It's the abstract ones that we spend the most time arguing over. I mean, there are very few ways to interpret the 21st Amendment, right? And then there's the one that's just a grammatical disaster area, the second. There's no parsing that one.

No, I disagree. The Constitution was not meant to be a "living, breathing" document, as many leftists will tell you. That, I do believe, is an invention of the ACLU, eh eh um (American Communist Lawyers Union), eh eh um. :headbang:If it wasn't, then there would never ever have been any provisions to ammend it. Proven wrong, next logical fallacy please?

No, I disagree. The Constitution was not meant to be a "living, breathing" document, as many leftists will tell you. That, I do believe, is an invention of the ACLU, eh eh um (American Communist Lawyers Union), eh eh um. :headbang:
So are you really stupid enough to argue that language has not changed over the last 220 years, or that society hasn't changed in that period? Can you tell me with absolute certainty what the intent of the Founders was on every possible nuance of the Constitution, and furthermore, why that should matter since we've amended it in the years since?

They thought everything in the Bill of Rights was a given. I would not have wanted to test that theory.

I don't think it would have been THAT bad. The main one I think would have gone out would have been te right to keep and bear arms and form militas.

The UK does not have anything like the bill of rights at all - and generally I'd say we're pretty free. Kinda on a gentlemans agreement with the government and the courts 800 odd years of common law.
That and the fact the UK is small enough it is not too hard to organise a couple of hundred thousand pissed off people to riot in central London when they're really pissed at the government.

It's the abstract ones that we spend the most time arguing over. I mean, there are very few ways to interpret the 21st Amendment, right? And then there's the one that's just a grammatical disaster area, the second. There's no parsing that one.

Heh... just read the Second. Agreed. But the keeping and bearing arms looks pretty obvious? Or am i missing something on a conditions attached to it? - you have to be in a regulated milita to kep arms maybe?

It's not beside the point. You're suggesting that the nation should be ruled by laws taken from a religion that may be anathema to me, and you refuse to even address the idea that some of us may find that completely offensive.

LOL!!! And all because someone in our Judicial system thought it would be wrong for you obey the Ten Commandments, and violent crime went way up after that as a result! Go figure!

And don't you think it's funny that almost no one, not even the ACLU is offended by the likes of Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism. Radical Islam of which is the real enemy this country is facing today. And yet the ACLU and other leftists organizations have continued their war on Christianity and for what? Christians have done a lot of good for this country in the last 200+ years and no one on the left seems to appreciate our efforts! It's so pathetic that we get blamed when we haven't done anything wrong, except try to hold this nation's moral integrety in one piece! :headbang:

Heh... just read the Second. Agreed. But the keeping and bearing arms looks pretty obvious? Or am i missing something on a conditions attached to it? - you have to be in a regulated milita to kep arms maybe?What you just discovered has been the basis for great angst and argument throughout the last couple hundred years of US jurisprudence and has taken up an awful lot of threadspace around here as well, and I'm no closer to an answer than I've ever been.

Heh... just read the Second. Agreed. But the keeping and bearing arms looks pretty obvious? Or am i missing something on a conditions attached to it? - you have to be in a regulated milita to kep arms maybe?

The second amendment'sinterpretation is viciously debated.

Many people believe it is meant to provide the right to keep and bear arms to members of the militia(the armed forces).

Many people beleve it provides the right to a milita, AND the right for the people to keep and bear arms. That they are separate but related.

I believe that the right of the people to keep and bear arms is to insure the regulation of the militia.

LOL!!! And all because someone in our Judicial system thought it would be wrong for you obey the Ten Commandments, and violent crime went way up after that as a result! Go figure!

And don't you think it's funny that almost no one, not even the ACLU is offended by the likes of Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism. Radical Islam of which is the real enemy this country is facing today. And yet the ACLU and other leftists organizations have continued their war on Christianity and for what? Christians have done a lot of good for this country in the last 200+ years and no one on the left seems to appreciate our efforts! It's so pathetic that we get blamed when we haven't done anything wrong, except try to hold this nation's moral integrety in one piece! :headbang:

I can't believe I've been arguing with someone stupid enough to believe in once saved, always saved. Well, that's enough of that.

It's so pathetic that we get blamed when we haven't done anything wrong, except try to hold this nation's moral integrety in one piece! :headbang:

When your insistence upon "moral integrity" deprives me of my freedom, that is a grievous wrong.

The second amendment'sinterpretation is viciously debated.

Many people believe it is meant to provide the right to keep and bear arms to members of the militia(the armed forces).

Many people beleve it provides the right to a milita, AND the right for the people to keep and bear arms. That they are separate but related.

I believe that the right of the people to keep and bear arms is to insure the regulation of the militia.
I kinda think I agree with your option 3. In that I am also intepreting it to include the official armed forces as militas that need to be kept regulated.

Ot option 4 - they were jerks and wanted to put in something very delibrately ambigious and unclear on a topic they knew was important to many people and would likely stay important knowing it would tie up countless hours of leglislative time in order to hinder governments from passing frivilous or stupid leglislation. Sure there's plenty of crap on the books - but imagine how much more there would be if all the time spent debating the Second had been spent thinking up and passing new laws.

LOL!!! And all because someone in our Judicial system thought it would be wrong for you obey the Ten Commandments, and violent crime went way up after that as a result! Go figure!

Funny thing is I don't need a religion to tell me killing is wrong. The right to swing your fist extends as far as another person's nose. Now here is the thing you can believe in the ten comandments all you want and thats fine. But I'd rather not have the government telling me that if I don't worship God its a sin.

And don't you think it's funny that almost no one, not even the ACLU is offended by the likes of Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism. Radical Islam of which is the real enemy this country is facing today. And yet the ACLU and other leftists organizations have continued their war on Christianity and for what? Christians have done a lot of good for this country in the last 200+ years and no one on the left seems to appreciate our efforts! It's so pathetic that we get blamed when we haven't done anything wrong, except try to hold this nation's moral integrety in one piece! :headbang:

I'm sure if any group of people that were involved in those religions listed tried to get legislation passed that violated a person's freedom the ACLU would be over them faster then you could say dirty liberal. Christians have done alot of good but you guys don't do it because your in the government. You do it through charities and other acts that help communities. And I'd rather keep it that way instead of you forcing your morals on me.

So are you really stupid enough to argue that language has not changed over the last 220 years, or that society hasn't changed in that period? Can you tell me with absolute certainty what the intent of the Founders was on every possible nuance of the Constitution, and furthermore, why that should matter since we've amended it in the years since?

Well, if the leftists had never started overregulating the schools and allowed students not to learn the original language and intent of the Constitution as well as the founding fathers, and not to forget forcing students to learn evolution and not including creationism as an alternative, then perhaps we would have a more properly educated society that would much better understand this nation's origins and the true intentions of our Founding Fathers.

The ACLU and our leftist government has been and is actively working behind the scenes to erase this nation's true history by intentionly altering our recorded history and then teaching that to our children in the schools. And you know how that goes. One believes what they've been taught and if what they've been is just a bunch of lies, then that amounts to brain washing! That means your knowledge of American History my friend is completely flawed and you don't even realize it, until now, hopefully!

The left doesn't care about the truth. The left is Godless which gives them the incentive to lie. All the left cares about is what sounds good to them and what they want the public to hear.

Don't take me as a fool, fool.

So there!

I kinda think I agree with your option 3. In that I am also intepreting it to include the official armed forces as militas that need to be kept regulated.

Ot option 4 - they were jerks and wanted to put in something very delibrately ambigious and unclear on a topic they knew was important to many people and would likely stay important knowing it would tie up countless hours of leglislative time in order to hinder governments from passing frivilous or stupid leglislation. Sure there's plenty of crap on the books - but imagine how much more there would be if all the time spent debating the Second had been spent thinking up and passing new laws.

It's an argument that has consumed several dozen threads. We certainly don't want to get this thread hijacked by delving into that can of worms. :p

Perhaps it was option 4A: They wanted to show off their command of punctuation by creating the most convoluted paragraph in history. :)

Well, if the leftists had never started overregulating the schools and allowed students not to learn the original language and intent of the Constitution as well as the founding fathers, and not to forget forcing students to learn evolution and not including creationism as an alternative, then perhaps we would have a more properly educated society that would much better understand this nation's origins and the true intentions of our Founding Fathers.

The ACLU and our leftist government has been and is actively working behind the scenes to erase this nation's true history by intentionly altering our recorded history and then teaching that to our children in the schools. And you know how that goes. One believes what they've been taught and if what they've been is just a bunch of lies, then that amounts to brain washing! That means your knowledge of American History my friend is completely flawed and you don't even realize it, until now, hopefully!

The left doesn't care about the truth. The left is Godless which gives them the incentive to lie. All the left cares about is what sounds good to them and what they want the public to hear.

Don't take me as a fool, fool.

So there!

You're funny because you're dumb. ;)

When your insistence upon "moral integrity" deprives me of my freedom, that is a grievous wrong.

Fine, you criminal! Go out there and commit crimes and mess up your life. Moral integrity is about keeping you from messing up your life. And that is what freedom really is all about.

So, in the name of free speech, ban pornography.

Well, if the leftists had never started overregulating the schools and allowed students not to learn the original language and intent of the Constitution as well as the founding fathers, and not to forget forcing students to learn evolution and not including creationism as an alternative, then perhaps we would have a more properly educated society that would much better understand this nation's origins and the true intentions of our Founding Fathers.

The ACLU and our leftist government has been and is actively working behind the scenes to erase this nation's true history by intentionly altering our recorded history and then teaching that to our children in the schools. And you know how that goes. One believes what they've been taught and if what they've been is just a bunch of lies, then that amounts to brain washing! That means your knowledge of American History my friend is completely flawed and you don't even realize it, until now, hopefully!

The left doesn't care about the truth. The left is Godless which gives them the incentive to lie. All the left cares about is what sounds good to them and what they want the public to hear.

Don't take me as a fool, fool.

So there!

Yea, damn those leftists and the ACLU for misinterpreting the FF's and the US Constitution.

"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."
-Treaty of Tripoli, 1797

“I have never been a communicant.”
-George Washington

“Nothing is more dreaded than the national government meddling with religion.”
“Thirteen governments [states & former colonies] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretense of miracle or mystery...are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”
“How has it happened that millions of myths, fables, legends and tales have been blended with Jewish and Christian fables and myths and have made them the most bloody religion that has ever existed? Filled with the sordid and detestable purposes of superstition and fraud?”
-John Adams

“I join you [John Adams], therefore, in sincere congratulations that this den of the priesthood is at length broken up, and that a Protestant Popedom is no longer to disgrace the American history and character.”
“I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies.”
“It is not to be understood that I am with him [Jesus] in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist.”
“If by religion, we are to understand sectarian dogmas, in which no two of them agree, then your [John Adams’] exclamation on that hypothesis is just, ‘that this would be the best of worlds if there were no religion in it’.”
Christianity neither is, nor ever was apart of the common law.
- Thomas Jefferson

“Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom? In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U.S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taqxes.”
“The establishment of the chaplainship to Cong[res]s is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected [by the majority] shut the door of worship agst the members whose creeds & consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority.”
- James Madison

“I could not do otherwise without transcending the limits prescribed by the Constitution for the President and without feeling that I might in some degree disturb the security which religion nowadays enjoys in this country in its complete separation form the political concerns of the General Government.”
-Andrew Jackson

“The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion. It has been the most destructive to the peace of man since man began to exist. Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses, who gave an order to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and then rape the daughters. One of the most horrible atrocities found in the literature of any nation. I would not dishonor my Creator's name by attaching it to this filthy book.” (from The Age of Reason)
-Thomas Paine

“Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church and the private school supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and state forever separate.” (Address to the Army of the Tennessee, Des Moines, Iowa, September 25, 1875)
- Ulysses S. Grant

“I hold that in this country there must be complete severance of Church and State; that public moneys shall not be used for the purpose of advancing any particular creed; and therefore that the public schools shall be nonsectarian and no public moneys appropriated for sectarian schools.” (Carnegie Hall address, 12 October 1915)
- Theodore Roosevelt

You're funny because you're dumb. ;)

Who's the more dumb? The one with a brainwashed education or the one with a correct interpretation. Go figure.

Fine, you criminal! Go out there and commit crimes and mess up your life. Moral integrity is about keeping you from messing up your life. And that is what freedom really is all about.

So, in the name of free speech, ban pornography.

I like you. You're silly. :)

LOL!!! And all because someone in our Judicial system thought it would be wrong for you obey the Ten Commandments, and violent crime went way up after that as a result! Go figure!I see. How exactly does working on a sunday (or perhaps a saturday, if you want to be hardcore) cause violent crime to go up?

And don't you think it's funny that almost no one, not even the ACLU is offended by the likes of Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism. I don't either. I think it's good.
Radical Islam of which is the real enemy this country is facing today. Radical Christianity is another, with the exception that it is an enemy within, and not outside.
And yet the ACLU and other leftists organizations have continued their war on Christianity and for what? War? You don't know what war means, kid.
Christians have done a lot of good for this country in the last 200+ years and no one on the left seems to appreciate our efforts! Because some Christians are doing their utmost to unmake the good.
It's so pathetic that we get blamed when we haven't done anything wrong, except try to hold this nation's moral integrety in one piece! :headbang:Good job there. Kids can't even go skinnydipping on public beaches :rolleyes:

I like you. You're silly. :)You said that to me too, a long time ago... Now it stands in a different light :(

Who's the more dumb? The one with a brainwashed education or the one with a correct interpretation. Go figure.

Nazz -1
BS- 0

See above quotes from the FF's.

The left doesn't care about the truth. The left is Godless which gives them the incentive to lie. All the left cares about is what sounds good to them and what they want the public to hear.

Don't take me as a fool, fool.

So there!

Sorry but its hard not to take you for a fool when you say that people such as myself are more likely to lie since we don't believe what you believe. Religion does not hold a monopoly on morality.

Fine, you criminal! Go out there and commit crimes and mess up your life. Moral integrity is about keeping you from messing up your life. And that is what freedom really is all about.

So, in the name of free speech, ban pornography.
Oh, I get it. You're a troll. You had me going for a bit. Buhbye now. Buh bye.

Click Here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4613995330489978540&q=Founding+Fathers&hl=en)

You link is a poor response to my very relevant questions.
How would non-Christians be represented in your "ideal" form of government?

Also do you not find it odd that if the Founding Fathers were indeed all Christians (they were not...a significant number of them were indeed Deists (http://www.lawfulgov.org/deists.htm)) why is it that they did not form a Christian government?

And you seem to forget that in the Treaty of Tripoli (http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html) the United States government itself emphatically stated:
"the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"
This treaty "Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation."

If you want a theocracy please do real Americans a favor and relocate to Iran.

Yea, damn those leftists and the ACLU for misinterpreting the FF's and the US Constitution.

"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."
-Treaty of Tripoli, 1797

“I have never been a communicant.”
-George Washington

“Nothing is more dreaded than the national government meddling with religion.”
“Thirteen governments [states & former colonies] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretense of miracle or mystery...are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”
“How has it happened that millions of myths, fables, legends and tales have been blended with Jewish and Christian fables and myths and have made them the most bloody religion that has ever existed? Filled with the sordid and detestable purposes of superstition and fraud?”
-John Adams

“I join you [John Adams], therefore, in sincere congratulations that this den of the priesthood is at length broken up, and that a Protestant Popedom is no longer to disgrace the American history and character.”
“I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies.”
“It is not to be understood that I am with him [Jesus] in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist.”
“If by religion, we are to understand sectarian dogmas, in which no two of them agree, then your [John Adams’] exclamation on that hypothesis is just, ‘that this would be the best of worlds if there were no religion in it’.”
Christianity neither is, nor ever was apart of the common law.
- Thomas Jefferson

“Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom? In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U.S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taqxes.”
“The establishment of the chaplainship to Cong[res]s is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected [by the majority] shut the door of worship agst the members whose creeds & consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority.”
- James Madison

“I could not do otherwise without transcending the limits prescribed by the Constitution for the President and without feeling that I might in some degree disturb the security which religion nowadays enjoys in this country in its complete separation form the political concerns of the General Government.”
-Andrew Jackson

“The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion. It has been the most destructive to the peace of man since man began to exist. Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses, who gave an order to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and then rape the daughters. One of the most horrible atrocities found in the literature of any nation. I would not dishonor my Creator's name by attaching it to this filthy book.” (from The Age of Reason)
-Thomas Paine

“Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church and the private school supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and state forever separate.” (Address to the Army of the Tennessee, Des Moines, Iowa, September 25, 1875)
- Ulysses S. Grant

“I hold that in this country there must be complete severance of Church and State; that public moneys shall not be used for the purpose of advancing any particular creed; and therefore that the public schools shall be nonsectarian and no public moneys appropriated for sectarian schools.” (Carnegie Hall address, 12 October 1915)
- Theodore Roosevelt

Most likely edited documents there, pal. Oh and by the way, you should research all 90 of the founding fathers for a BIG wake-up call, not just the first 12 and most famous of them. :p

Fine, you criminal! Go out there and commit crimes and mess up your life. Moral integrity is about keeping you from messing up your life.

You do not have the right to keep me from doing acts you consider to be "messing up [my] life."

That is my own decision; if I want to mess up my life, let me.

Furthermore, the freedoms people like you want to deprive me of - having sex with any consenting partner, marrying any consenting partner, watching pornography involving consenting participants - have nothing to do with "messing up [my] life."

Well, if the leftists had never started overregulating the schools and allowed students not to learn the original language and intent of the Constitution as well as the founding fathers,

Huh? The evil leftists are pushing to stop teaching students the original language of the Constitution? Who? Where?


and not to forget forcing students to learn evolution and not including creationism as an alternative,

Oy vey. How DARE those bastards "force" our children to learn scientific facts and refuse to change the entire freaking definition of science in order to include religious doctrine! Religion =/= science. You can teach religion in Sunday school or comparative religion classes to your heart's content, but it has no place in a science class.

then perhaps we would have a more properly educated society that would much better understand this nation's origins and the true intentions of our Founding Fathers.

Undermining students' comprehension of the scientific method would hardly help their education. As for our nation's origin, I still have no idea what evil anti-history-class leftists you're talking about.

The ACLU and our leftist government has been and is actively working behind the scenes to erase this nation's true history by intentionly altering our recorded history and then teaching that to our children in the schools. And you know how that goes. One believes what they've been taught and if what they've been is just a bunch of lies, then that amounts to brain washing! That means your knowledge of American History my friend is completely flawed and you don't even realize it, until now, hopefully!

Buh? Again, sources? Evidence? Anything other than random tinfoil-hat ramblings?

The left doesn't care about the truth. The left is Godless which gives them the incentive to lie. All the left cares about is what sounds good to them and what they want the public to hear.

Holy crap, are you Ann Coulter? You sound uncannily like her...

Good job there. Kids can't even go skinnydipping on public beaches :rolleyes:
In fairness - given the minute size of some bikinis you see on beaches they are only not nude on a technicality.

'course - bet the fundies aren't too happy about that either. The bastards.

(I'm thinking women rather than kids here btw...)

Fine, you criminal! Go out there and commit crimes and mess up your life. Moral integrity is about keeping you from messing up your life. And that is what freedom really is all about.

So, in the name of free speech, ban pornography.

You'sa cute one :)

You said that to me too, a long time ago... Now it stands in a different light :(

Did I?

You've grown so much since then. You're still pretty silly. But in a good way. :)

Most likely edited documents there, pal. Oh and by the way, you should research all 90 of the founding fathers for a BIG wake-up call, not just the first 12 and most famous of them. :p

If you're going to accuse him of mis-quoting then perhaps you'd like to actually look them up and post the full quotes?

Or is the truth against your beliefs?

Who's the more dumb? The one with a brainwashed education or the one with a correct interpretation. Go figure.

The one with a brainwashed education. But if you stick around a while, we might be able to help you. :)

You link is a poor response to my very relevant questions.
How would non-Christians be represented in your "ideal" form of government?

Also do you not find it odd that if the Founding Fathers were indeed all Christians (they were not...a significant number of them were indeed Deists (http://www.lawfulgov.org/deists.htm)) why is it that they did not form a Christian government?

And you seem to forget that in the Treaty of Tripoli (http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html) the United States government itself emphatically stated:
"the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"
This treaty "Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation."

If you want a theocracy please do real Americans a favor and relocate to Iran.

http://www.helpsaveamerica.com/supreme-court.htm

Most likely edited documents there, pal. Oh and by the way, you should research all 90 of the founding fathers for a BIG wake-up call, not just the first 12 and most famous of them. :p

So dispute them Baby Troll. I guess dismissing the first five presidents, supporters of and other of the most powerful presidents is the way to "correctly" interpret" their intentions.

Kinda sad really.

They appear to be a little to the right of Rush Limbaugh. :p

Further. More like Hitler, God even.

You do not have the right to keep me from doing acts you consider to be "messing up [my] life."

That is my own decision; if I want to mess up my life, let me.

Furthermore, the freedoms people like you want to deprive me of - having sex with any consenting partner, marrying any consenting partner, watching pornography involving consenting participants - have nothing to do with "messing up [my] life."

Only in your sick and twisted mind, pal. The laws are suppose to keep people from doing stupid things and that includes messing up their lives as if life has no significance. Sigh. This world is in such a sad state, these days. :(

Come quickly, Lord Jesus! And restore our world to it's original pureness! Amen! :D

DCD...is that you?

I thought the Jesussaves days were over man :D

Only in your sick and twisted mind, pal. The laws are suppose to keep people from doing stupid things and that includes messing up their lives as if life has no significance. Sigh. This world is in such a sad state, these days. :(

Come quickly, Lord Jesus! And restore our world to it's original pureness! Amen! :D

Right to swing your fist extends as far as your neighbor's nose. Hence if I want to clog my arteries by eating lots of McDonalds the government can't tell me no. If I want to kill myself then the government can't tell me I can't since its my body. If I want to punch myself in the face I can, I just can't punch you in the face.

I don't see the point in further arguing this with a bunch of brainwashed leftists, who believe only what sounds good to them, not caring about the facts at all. :(

I leave you now with this only prayer:

"Help them, Lord Jesus! For they know not what they do! Amen."

I don't see the point in further arguing this with a bunch of brainwashed leftists, who believe only what sounds good to them, not caring about the facts at all. :(

I leave you now with this only prayer:

"Help them, Lord Jesus! For they know not what they do! Amen."
In other words, you've either run out of trolling material, or your mommy has called you in for dinner.

I don't see the point in further arguing this with a bunch of brainwashed leftists, who believe only what sounds good to them, not caring about the facts at all. :(

I leave you now with this only prayer:

"Help them, Lord Jesus! For they know not what they do! Amen."

And the baby troll cuts and runs.

Pathetic.

Edit: Should we place odds on whether this was a puppet or a legitimate troll Nazz?

Well, if the leftists had never started overregulating the schools and allowed students not to learn the original language and intent of the Constitution as well as the founding fathers, and not to forget forcing students to learn evolution and not including creationism as an alternative, then perhaps we would have a more properly educated society that would much better understand this nation's origins and the true intentions of our Founding Fathers.The only way what you describe would have been possible is if English were a DEAD language like latin. The only way to kill a language is to get people to stop speaking it and to restrict it to scholarly work and mottos. The entire English-speaking world is to blame for the loss of the language of the time of the constitution and the founding fathers are equally culpable for the loss of the language 200 years before their time.

I don't see the point in further arguing this with a bunch of brainwashed leftists,
I thought you were a 'leftist'...

"Help them, Lord Jesus! For they know not what they do! Amen."I use that one on people like you a lot. ;)

Most likely edited documents there, pal. Oh and by the way, you should research all 90 of the founding fathers for a BIG wake-up call, not just the first 12 and most famous of them. :pAnd if there's evidence to prove you wrong, use the "liberal lies" scheme.

In fairness - given the minute size of some bikinis you see on beaches they are only not nude on a technicality.

'course - bet the fundies aren't too happy about that either. The bastards.

(I'm thinking women rather than kids here btw...)On a German public beach, there's no restriction on either.

Did I?

You've grown so much since then. You're still pretty silly. But in a good way. :)It was back in my early days, when I still had a word document where I stored all the positive things people said about me on this forum:p

On a German public beach, there's no restriction on either.

It was back in my early days, when I still had a word document where I stored all the positive things people said about me on this forum:p

I don't remember the context I used it in. I have used it a few times in a positive way. Maybe yours was one of them. But I usually use it to dismiss someone without making his opinion seem relevant with an actual critical response.

No offense. :p

It was back in my early days, when I still had a word document where I stored all the positive things people said about me on this forum:p

That must have been pretty short. *rimshot* :)

That must have been pretty short. *rimshot* :)I'm putting that comment at the end on page 10 :D

I don't remember the context I used it in. I have used it a few times in a positive way. Maybe yours was one of them. But I usually use it to dismiss someone without making his opinion seem relevant with an actual critical response.

No offense. :pPah. Like I value your opinion anyway... (jk ;))

And BTW you commies, just so you know, if the ACLU's plan to bring Communism to America works out it would never stop Christianity from spreading, just like Communism didn't stop it in the former U.S.S.R. After the Berlin wall came down and the Iron Curtain fell, 75% of the population came out and claimed to be Christian.

If I was living under a Communist regime, you can bet that I would still be practicing my faith and still be going to church and still be living a righteous life, right under the very nose of those pathetic Communist punk police, too, and so would the rest of my family and millions upon millions of other Christians across the country. We would do it more discreetly, of course, but we are very brave.

I would still have my Bible. I would know exactly where to hide that "contraband" where no one would ever find it. I would take it out and read it whenever I want to without fear. I would even take it on the road. And those pathetic Communist punk police would never find it if they pulled me over. And my family would do the same thing, and so would millions upon millions of other Christians across the country.

And you can bet I'd still be evangelizing, too. So long as Communism is around, there will always be people suffering and those are the very people who will be easiest to convert without the danger of them snitching on me to those pathetic Commie punk police! Oh, and BTW, my family would do the same thing, and so would millions upon millions of other Christians across the country.

If by chance, I'd happen to get caught, I would first look for a way to escape and take advantage of an escape opportunity if one existed. Life is so precious and I wouldn't even allow myself to suffer and die if I didn't have to. But if they want to go ahead kill me; I would say "just do it", because I know that the next moment I'll be with my Jesus, "and I hope that one day, you people that murdered me will be forgiven and be with me in heaven with Jesus." My family would do exactly the same thing and so would millions upon millions of other Christians across the country.

It takes a lot to have faith like that. Do you have faith? Is your faith stronger than mine?

*snip*

You do realize that no one wants to ban Christianity?

You do realize that no one wants to ban Christianity?

Those Marxist Communist Lawyers in that pathetic ACLU want to do it, and I bet you'd want to do it to, even though you won't admit it, and neither will the ACLU. Oh poo poo.

Those Marxist Communist Lawyers in that pathetic ACLU want to do it, and I bet you'd want to do it to, even though you won't admit it, and neither will the ACLU. Oh poo poo.

Your manufactured victimhood only makes your worthless cause look more ludicrous.

puritans piss me off

puritans piss me off

In some ways I feel the same way, and in others I don't.

Your manufactured victimhood only makes your worthless cause look more ludicrous.

Your sinful acts of adultery and lust for porn sickens me.

BTW, did you know that the Church not only survives when it is being persecuted, but it thrives! That's right! If you read the unaltered history of the church in the past 2,000 years you will find that this is very accurate, especially in the early days of the Roman Empire, of which the rise of Christianity was a major factor that caused this empire to fall, and thank goodness this evil, wicked, sadistic empire did fall. And good riddens to it, too. :mad:

If they scrapped their pro-theocracy stance, as well as their homophobia and a few other things, they'd actually be a pretty good party.

Your sinful acts of adultery and lust for porn sickens me.

<VOICE='homer simpson'>mmmmmmm....porn. **drooling noises**</VOICE>

Your sinful acts of adultery and lust for porn sickens me.

Good. I would hate to be the kind of person who does not sicken you.

Good. I would hate to be the kind of person who does not sicken you.

*gives Soheran a cookie*

:D

Hold up there, buddy. You know that Westboro and Fred Phelps are not truly Baptists and not truly Christian, either. They have nothing to do with and are not even affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention. To make a long story short, Westboro is a cult group, plain and simple, and their tiny following of only about 70 people (mostly family members of Phelps') goes to show it.

But if you're referring the judgemental nature of the Constitution Party, then you are right, this party is VERY judgemental and that would align them pretty close to Westboro.

Jesus told us not to judge others, even those who are supposedly non-believers, or lest we ourselves will be judged.


They're more like Christian Identity, only slightly less hardline. Well, that and the utter obsession with homosexuality. Westboro Batshits I mean, I bet alot of the Constitution Party core are Christian Identity too. I think they claim to be Calvinists too.

There's hundreds of groups that use Baptist in their name and aren't associated with the SBC, anyways.

They appear to be a little to the right of Rush Limbaugh. :p

More like a little to the right of Attilla the Hun.

BTW, did you know that the Church not only survives when it is being persecuted, but it thrives! That's right! If you read the unaltered history of the church in the past 2,000 years you will find that this is very accurate, especially in the early days of the Roman Empire, of which the rise of Christianity was a major factor that caused this empire to fall, and thank goodness this evil, wicked, sadistic empire did fall. And good riddens to it, too. :mad:

I'm sorry, I've read too much of your drivel. Your religion is based on a pack of lies and your knowledge of real history wouldn't fill a thimble. First, Jeshua was a Rabbi (meaning Jewish), which actually means teacher, and there are no written records of the man. Which is really interesting because Romans were pretty nuts about the census. Second, most of the New Testament, on which most Christian religions are based, is based on a compromise that came about at the Council of Nicea in the 3rd century. It was here that church leaders decided which gospels and other books were to be in it. It seems curious to me that the early church leaders had to borrow from several other religions in order to make their own palatable. As an example, the idea of the ressurrected God is the Egyptian story of Osiris, the Christians borrowed it sometime in the 2nd or 3rd century, long after the death of Jesus.

And the idea that Christianity had anything to do with the fall of Rome is laughable. If it weren't for the deathbed conversion of Emporer Constantine, Christainity would still be a highly fragmented, second rate, mystery religion, which is how it started in the first place. If you ask me, the only major religion which has got it right is Buddhism. There are no gods in the Buddhist religion, Buddha was a great teacher, nothing more.

I think that Jeshua would be appalled at all you have managed to achieve in his name.

I'm sorry, I've read too much of your drivel.

I've read too much of his drivel too.

First, Jeshua was a Rabbi (meaning Jewish), which actually means teacher, and there are no written records of the man.

None at all? Now that's interesting. I recall, upon glancing at some parts of the Bible, a few references to a Rabbi named "Jeshua".

Which is really interesting because Romans were pretty nuts about the census.

So you're claiming that there are no Roman records of the fellow? It'd be awful nice if you could provide some substantiation of that.

Second, most of the New Testament, on which most Christian religions are based, is based on a compromise that came about at the Council of Nicea in the 3rd century. It was here that church leaders decided which gospels and other books were to be in it.

Yeah. Terrible thing, them religious folks deciding what their religion's going to be about. How dare they decide what they're going to believe? :rolleyes:

It seems curious to me that the early church leaders had to borrow from several other religions in order to make their own palatable. As an example, the idea of the ressurrected God is the Egyptian story of Osiris, the Christians borrowed it sometime in the 2nd or 3rd century, long after the death of Jesus.

Source? At the very least, the story of Osiris was around a hell of a long time before the 2nd or 3rd century so it seems a little odd that they took a couple centuries to borrow it, and I don't see that borrowing that story would win any points with the folks the early Christians had to worry about, the Romans.

And the idea that Christianity had anything to do with the fall of Rome is laughable. If it weren't for the deathbed conversion of Emporer Constantine, Christainity would still be a highly fragmented, second rate, mystery religion, which is how it started in the first place.

I'm in agreement with you on this one.

If you ask me, the only major religion which has got it right is Buddhism. There are no gods in the Buddhist religion, Buddha was a great teacher, nothing more.

I dunno about that. At least from my studies of Buddhism and conversations with Buddhists, that's not the case for all sects.

That said, Buddhism is a very nice religion that I seriously considered converting to some years ago, so I can appreciate why you like it so much.

I think that Jeshua would be appalled at all you have managed to achieve in his name.

Oh, he'd certainly be appalled at a fair amount of it. The Crusades, the Inquisition, the denominationalism, the not uncommon violations of the vows of celibacy by priests and other sexual immorality on the part of clergy, the excessive legalism, the building up of wealth, the political intrigue and corruption, the persecution of minorities. That sort of thing.

He might favor the worldwide charity networks, aid foundations, the building of schools and universities and medical facilities, the volunteer work by so many Christian youngsters, and millions of people who are focused on making themselves better because of him. My grandfather quit all his bad habits because of that Jewish Rabbi, and became the most gentle and loving person I have ever known. I think ol' "Jeshua" might be cool with that, and similar things done by plenty of other converts to Christianity.

Sadly, we have folks like the ones in the Constitution Party trying to undo a lot of the good things that folks like my grandfather stand for.

damn shame. But in this two party system, any credible Christian and/or conservative will go to the Republican or even the Democratic party because that is where they can have the most influence.

The Constitution party, like the Green Party, actually looked like a liegitimate alternate party back in the early to mid 90s, but now it is full of a bunch of loons, like the Reform party.

BTW, did you know that the Church not only survives when it is being persecuted, but it thrives! That's right! If you read the unaltered history of the church in the past 2,000 years you will find that this is very accurate, especially in the early days of the Roman Empire, of which the rise of Christianity was a major factor that caused this empire to fall, and thank goodness this evil, wicked, sadistic empire did fall. And good riddens to it, too. :mad:So it fell because they converted to Christianity? One more good reason why we shouldn't let the US become a theocracy...

BTW, did you know that the Church not only survives when it is being persecuted, but it thrives! That's right! If you read the unaltered history of the church in the past 2,000 years you will find that this is very accurate, especially in the early days of the Roman Empire, of which the rise of Christianity was a major factor that caused this empire to fall, and thank goodness this evil, wicked, sadistic empire did fall. And good riddens to it, too. :mad:

If you look at the unaltered history of the church you can also see that what came after the Roman empire wasn't much better.

*snip*

Translation: I can't refute anything that's been presented so I'm going to go off on a ranting tangent.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/superheroes/images/hulk.jpg
"JESUS R TEH ANGRIE!"

So you're claiming that there are no Roman records of the fellow? It'd be awful nice if you could provide some substantiation of that.


Proving a Negative?

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/rome-jesus.html
http://kassevans.com/REL2011/jesus/sources.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Jesus

Proving a Negative?

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/rome-jesus.html
http://kassevans.com/REL2011/jesus/sources.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Jesus

I really had no expectation of him proving a negative. I was just hoping to watch smugly as he(?) struggled to do so, and perhaps in the course of his research found a little skepticism regarding sweeping historical claims. :)

No, the God-given primary role of government is to help save people from their sins by leading them to Christ.

And the role given by the gods to those non-Christians in such a goverment is to overthrow it by force.

<snips foolishnes>

Don't take me as a fool, fool.


Then stop posting foolish things . . .

Who's the more dumb? The one with a brainwashed education or the one with a correct interpretation. Go figure.

You do realise that YOU are the bolded one right?

You do realise that YOU are th bolded one right?

ER, I think our baby troll has crawled back under the bridge.

I see. How exactly does working on a sunday (or perhaps a saturday, if you want to be hardcore) cause violent crime to go up?


Or for that matter worshiping other gods before Him, or covetting thy neighbors wife . . .

Looks like UN Abassadorship found religion.