NationStates Jolt Archive

October 9th is the US celebration of Columbus' discovery of America (the actual day is the 12th, of course). This holiday has gotten a bit controversial of late, with Native Americans calling for a halt to celebrations of a man they characterize as a racist mass-murderer and Italians fighting them tooth-and-nail.

Thoughts on Columbus, Native Americans, Italians, holidays ... poll coming!

I'd be stuck in Das Vaterland if it weren't for Mr. Columbus' discoveries, so I greatly approve of them.

I'd be stuck in Das Vaterland if it weren't for Mr. Columbus' discoveries, so I greatly approve of them.

Which is not to say someone else wouldn't have made the trip eventually, but then you might be living in a state whose capitol city was Verrazano.

I can see the point of protesting Spanish treatment of Native Americans, which was not very nice, but putting all the blame on Columbus seems excessive. And I would think the NA organizations, AIM, in particular, would want to concentrate their efforts on helping their living people, a lot of whom still live in what can only be called squalor on the reservations.

The viking deserve their own poll option!

The viking deserve their own poll option!

I know, I know ... didn't think it out. :(

October 9th is the US celebration of Columbus' discovery of America (the actual day is the 12th, of course). This holiday has gotten a bit controversial of late, with Native Americans calling for a halt to celebrations of a man they characterize as a racist mass-murderer and Italians fighting them tooth-and-nail.

Thoughts on Columbus, Native Americans, Italians, holidays ... poll coming!

Native Americans were busy exterminating each other with their constant blood feuds piling up generation after generation long before a European set foot on America.

Native Americans were busy exterminating each other with their constant blood feuds piling up generation after generation long before a European set foot on America.
All we did was unintentionally bring disease.

Although, it’s important not to forget that we were doing the same in Europe. It was a battle between two equally inferior cultures.

It's not as though we get a day off from school for Columbus day. I voted for the vikings.

All we did was indivertibly bring disease.

Although, it’s important not to forget that we were doing the same in Europe. It was a battle between two equally inferior cultures.

story of the world. Though I do believe genuine peace will be achieved in a technologically advanced future. I am a futurist.

Colombus was a racist mass murderer who does not deserve recognition as anything but such.

He should not be regarded as a hero, and we should rename the District of Columbia to something more approrpriate.

Without Columbus we wouldn't have the film 1492, Conquest of Paradise. It was a decent movie that entertained me for a couple of hours, therefore Columbus' impact was mainly positive.

Colombus was a racist mass murderer who does not deserve recognition as anything but such.

He should not be regarded as a hero, and we should rename the District of Columbia to something more approrpriate.
Racism.
Mass murder.
How is it inappropriate for this country? In a historical context, it’s perfect.

Colombus was a racist mass murderer who does not deserve recognition as anything but such.

He should not be regarded as a hero, and we should rename the District of Columbia to something more approrpriate.

Do you think if the roles were reversed and the Native Americans had the technology to invade Europe while Europeans were still living in bands and tribes that the Americans would have been any less racist or murderous? My view of human nature says that they would have acted just as badly as the European collonists.

Racism.
Mass murder.
How is it inappropriate for this country?

We have had people like Abraham Lincoln, William Lloyd Garrison, Harriet Tubman, Martin Luther King, Cesar Chavez, and so on.

It is they who should be honored.

I’m surprised at some of your responses.

Native Americans were busy exterminating each other with their constant blood feuds piling up generation after generation long before a European set foot on America.

Not entirely true. Perhaps this was so with the Aztec, Maya, and other Mesoamerican cultures. But Most North and South American peoples lived in peace, whereas Europeans constantly fought for riches, land, and for 'god.'

All we did was unintentionally bring disease.

Although, it’s important not to forget that we were doing the same in Europe. It was a battle between two equally inferior cultures.

Native Americans were more inferior in technology, Europeans in culture. And Europeans did a lot more than bring disease (that killed off about 80% iirc). They enslaved native populations, burned the books of their 'backward' culture, slaughtered any resistance, and exploited land that was not theirs.

I'm truly taken aback how many of you intelligent people think Native Americans should "move on." Sure, America, Brazil, Canada, etc are great, and none of it would have happened without this guy. But how can we celebrate a man who embodies the counter to everything we believe in, a man who did not tolerate anything different than his own beliefs, a man who committed genocide without remorse?

By all means, have a day and celebrate what we are now. Celebrate our unity and peace as it is today, but for divinity's sake, do not celebrate Columbus; our dark past.

Do you think if the roles were reversed and the Native Americans had the technology to invade Europe while Europeans were still living in bands and tribes that the Americans would have been any less racist or murderous? My view of human nature says that they would have acted just as badly as the European collonists.

Let's take this logic to its natural conclusion.

If the roles had been reversed and the Jews had controlled a powerful state recovering from a war and humiliation while the Germans were a long-oppressed nation without a homeland, do you think the Jews would have been any less racist and murderous?

Thus, we should have a Hitler Day, for the great achievements his scientists made in rocket technology.

Let's take this logic to its natural conclusion.

If the roles had been reversed and the Jews had controlled a powerful state recovering from a war and humiliation while the Germans were a long-oppressed nation without a homeland, do you think the Jews would have been any less racist and murderous?

Thus, we should have a Hitler Day, for the great achievements his scientists made in rocket technology.

Hahahah! Well done!

I’m surprised at some of your responses.



Not entirely true. Perhaps this was so with the Aztec, Maya, and other Mesoamerican cultures. But Most North and South American peoples lived in peace, whereas Europeans constantly fought for riches, land, and for 'god.' I don't know what warfare among North American tribes was like, but South American tribes did in the past, and do to this day fight each other on a regular basis, kidnapp women and girls from other tribes and suffer casualty rates that would horrify the leaders of modern armies.



Native Americans were more inferior in technology, Europeans in culture. And Europeans did a lot more than bring disease (that killed off about 80% iirc). They enslaved native populations, burned the books of their 'backward' culture, slaughtered any resistance, and exploited land that was not theirs.

I'm truly taken aback how many of you intelligent people think Native Americans should "move on." Sure, America, Brazil, Canada, etc are great, and none of it would have happened without this guy. But how can we celebrate a man who embodies the counter to everything we believe in, a man who did not tolerate anything different than his own beliefs, a man who committed genocide without remorse?

By all means, have a day and celebrate what we are now. Celebrate our unity and peace as it is today, but for divinity's sake, do not celebrate Columbus; our dark past.Books? North American natives had written language before the Europeans introduced the concept? That's news to me.

Anyway, Columbus day is popular among many Italian-Americans because it's one Italian we can point to who had a hand in founding this country.

Not entirely true. Perhaps this was so with the Aztec, Maya, and other Mesoamerican cultures. But Most North and South American peoples lived in peace, whereas Europeans constantly fought for riches, land, and for 'god.'
You need to take a closer look at history, bubba. Native Americans fought all the time. Remember they are still people.

Native Americans were more inferior in technology, Europeans in culture.
Uh, no. Both their cultures sucked. If you don't have the wheel, your culture sucks.
Do you think if the roles were reversed and the Native Americans had the technology to invade Europe while Europeans were still living in bands and tribes that the Americans would have been any less racist or murderous? My view of human nature says that they would have acted just as badly as the European collonists.
I agree.
Let's take this logic to its natural conclusion.

If the roles had been reversed and the Jews had controlled a powerful state recovering from a war and humiliation while the Germans were a long-oppressed nation without a homeland, do you think the Jews would have been any less racist and murderous?

Thus, we should have a Hitler Day, for the great achievements his scientists made in rocket technology.
Just because he’s right about human nature, doesn’t mean we should celebrate Hitler Day or Columbus Day.

Anyway, Columbus day is popular among many Italian-Americans because it's one Italian we can point to who had a hand in founding this country.
Sounds to me like they're a bit insecure about something that doesn't matter.

its very apt for america to have a murderous racist founder.
if america hopes mature to the level of the more peacefull civilisations, it should realise it is a pile of shite founded by blood shed.

its very apt for america to have a murderous racist founder.
if america hopes mature to the level of the more peacefull civilisations, it should realise it is a pile of shite founded by blood shed.
How charming.:)

Just because he’s right about human nature, doesn’t mean we should celebrate Hitler Day or Columbus Day.

Exactly. Though I don't know if "human nature" is what I'd call it.

Exactly. Though I don't know if "human nature" is what I'd call it.
What would you call it then?

I don't know what warfare among North American tribes was like, but South American tribes did in the past, and do to this day fight each other on a regular basis, kidnapp women and girls from other tribes and suffer casualty rates that would horrify the leaders of modern armies.Books? North American natives had written language before the Europeans introduced the concept? That's news to me.

Anyway, Columbus day is popular among many Italian-Americans because it's one Italian we can point to who had a hand in founding this country.

I don't doubt there was some Native warfare, but I know it was a lot less rampant (percentage wise, at least) then in Europe. I know for a fact most North American cultures were peaceful and had strict codes of honor. As for literature, yes, Native Americans had written language and a colorful cultural background.

Uh, no. Both their cultures sucked. If you don't have the wheel, your culture sucks.

The wheel is technology, not the end all and be all of culture. And though you're entitled to your opinion, I don't think you should judge a people on technology only.

Not entirely true. Perhaps this was so with the Aztec, Maya, and other Mesoamerican cultures. But Most North and South American peoples lived in peace, whereas Europeans constantly fought for riches, land, and for 'god.'



Not really, there is sufficient evidence that the North American Indian cultures were much more populous before they had any contact with European settlers, and they did indeed wage wars against each other (although these wars were generally more limited because of the distance separating the individual cultures.) Smallpox though, had so severely depopulated the area that when Europeans finally made contact, there were so few people that they were incapable of organizing sufficiently for such wars.

Although the upper Great Lakes tribes that would later be associated with the Iroquois confederacy and such survived a bit more thoroughly, and definitely had inter-group rivalries that amounted to violence quite often.

What would you call it then?

Human behavior under highly unnatural conditions of inequality, perhaps.

I don't doubt there was some Native warfare, but I know it was a lot less rampant (percentage wise, at least) then in Europe. I know for a fact most North American cultures were peaceful and had strict codes of honor. As for literature, yes, Native Americans had written language and a colorful cultural background.

Which has a lot to do with how disperesed Native People's in North America were, and no intrinsic cultural peacefulness.

Although the upper Great Lakes tribes that would later be associated with the Iroquois confederacy and such survived a bit more thoroughly, and definitely had inter-group rivalries that amounted to violence quite often.

In no small part enabled and encouraged by Europeans.

Which has a lot to do with how disperesed Native People's in North America were, and no intrinsic cultural peacefulness.

Yes, of course, I agree. I wasn't arguing the people themselves where better. Humans are much nicer and generous when they have more to share, and mostly all historical events and cultural differences can be explained by geographic luck (ie what land they have been given, or what land has been given to those who have influenced them (read Yali's Question)).

We have had people like Abraham Lincoln, William Lloyd Garrison, Harriet Tubman, Martin Luther King, Cesar Chavez, and so on.

It is they who should be honored.

aren't they already honored? don't you celebrate their birthdays? We do.

aren't they already honored? don't you celebrate their birthdays? We do.

They should be, and are, I agree.

Let's take this logic to its natural conclusion.

If the roles had been reversed and the Jews had controlled a powerful state recovering from a war and humiliation while the Germans were a long-oppressed nation without a homeland, do you think the Jews would have been any less racist and murderous?

Thus, we should have a Hitler Day, for the great achievements his scientists made in rocket technology.

How does comparing the conquest of a technologically impaired culture by a technologically advanced one that's been in a state of constant warfare agianst Muslims tranlate logically into a reversed holocaust? Oh, and yeah, we've got evidence in the old testament that Jews can be genocidal. everyone can. It's human nature.

Sounds to me like they're a bit insecure about something that doesn't matter.

Everyone looks for something to be proud of in his history.

its very apt for america to have a murderous racist founder.
if america hopes mature to the level of the more peacefull civilisations, it should realise it is a pile of shite founded by blood shed.

Go fingerbang an orangutan.

How does comparing the conquest of a technologically impaired culture by a technologically advanced one that's been in a state of constant warfare agianst Muslims tranlate logically into a reversed holocaust?

If reversing the roles of one atrocity is legitimate, why not reverse the roles of another?

Oh, and yeah, we've got evidence in the old testament that Jews can be genocidal. everyone can. It's human nature.

So? What's your point?

If reversing the roles of one atrocity is legitimate, why not reverse the roles of another?



So? What's your point?

My point is that people are people. There are no noble savages. Every ethnic group is capable of attrocities and probably has commited at least one in it's past.

My point is that people are people. There are no noble savages. Every ethnic group is capable of attrocities and probably has commited at least one in it's past.

Okay, but no one is saying that Europeans are particularly evil, despicable people.

Merely that Columbus was an evil, despicable person.

Human behavior under highly unnatural conditions of inequality, perhaps.
Is there any other kind?
Everyone looks for something to be proud of in his history.I don't. I'm great by my own merit.

Is there any other kind?

Absolutely. There is no reason to suspect that such an imbalance in the means of violence has been a constant throughout the existence of the human species.

aren't they already honored? don't you celebrate their birthdays? We do.
Why would you? Lincoln and Garrison were deeply flawed in their beleifs.

Absolutely. There is no reason to suspect that such an imbalance in the means of violence has been a constant throughout the existence of the human species.
Other animals fight over territory all the time. There's no reason to suspect that people are in any different. The only difference is that human beings have willpower and can avoid violence if we are only willing to.

I don't doubt there was some Native warfare, but I know it was a lot less rampant (percentage wise, at least) then in Europe. I know for a fact most North American cultures were peaceful and had strict codes of honor. As for literature, yes, Native Americans had written language and a colorful cultural background.
I forgot that Mexico is part of North America. Yeah, the Aztecs and Mayans did have a written language. They also had major wars and human sacrifice.


The wheel is technology, not the end all and be all of culture. And though you're entitled to your opinion, I don't think you should judge a people on technology only.
The wheel and beasts of burden to pull wheeled carts are an important development. They facilitate trade between distant as well as neighboring peoples and spread culture, technology and ideas which spur further development in the fields of art, technology, and government.

I agree, however my original point stands. Europeans had the wheel for thousands of years. They advanced culturally in some areas, but lacked tolerance and valued ignorant beliefs above science.

However the Incans, Iroquois, etc never developed the wheel and welcomed multiple beliefs within their own borders. And many Mesoamericans devoted studies to astrology and other sciences (so did Europeans, but it was not usually culturally accepted).

The wheel is not the end all and be all of culture.

I agree, however my original point stands. Europeans had the wheel for thousands of years. They advanced culturally in some areas, but lacked tolerance and valued ignorant beliefs above science.

However the Incans, Iroquois, etc never developed the wheel and welcomed multiple beliefs within their own borders. And many Mesoamericans devoted studies to astrology and other sciences (so did Europeans, but it was not usually culturally accepted).

The wheel is not the end all and be all of culture.

Ok, but let's not go overboard and call astrology a science. Pseudoscientific superstition maybe, but definitely not a science.

systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.

A flawed science, according to some, but a science nonetheless.

But that doesn't really matter; I meant to say astronomy, but astrology is good too.

A flawed science, according to some, but a science nonetheless.

But that doesn't really matter; I meant to say astronomy, but astrology is good too.

How exactly does one confirm astrology by experimentation? My horoscope always seems to contain information vague enough that could apply to anyone. Also which kind of Astrology? Mayan, European, Chinese and Indian versions of Astrology would use different combinations of stars and planets and come to different conclusions for the same exact person.

Astronomy is a science, Astrology is pseudoscientific superstition.

Why would you? Lincoln and Garrison were deeply flawed in their beleifs.

all humans are flawed. try to find one outside of religious text, that wasn't.

Well, if you're not going to celebrate October 12 as a day of an Italian in Spanish ships sighting land in the Western Hemisphere, but NOT Continental North America, then please celebrate October 12 for a much better reason: this one (http://maxhedrm.montebellopark.com/blog/media/birthday.jpg).

all humans are flawed. try to find one outside of religious text, that wasn't.

Try to find one in a religious text that wasn't (with the exception of Jesus, who was divine.)

Well, if you're not going to celebrate October 12 as a day of an Italian in Spanish ships sighting land in the Western Hemisphere, but NOT Continental North America, then please celebrate October 12 for a much better reason: this one (http://maxhedrm.montebellopark.com/blog/media/birthday.jpg).

Your birthday has been noted and we encourage you to consider it "happy".

I agree, however my original point stands. Europeans had the wheel for thousands of years. They advanced culturally in some areas, but lacked tolerance and valued ignorant beliefs above science.

However the Incans, Iroquois, etc never developed the wheel and welcomed multiple beliefs within their own borders. And many Mesoamericans devoted studies to astrology and other sciences (so did Europeans, but it was not usually culturally accepted).

The wheel is not the end all and be all of culture.

Lest we forget the Aztecs who never figured out the wheel OR cultural tolerance, but still managed one of the most memorable short-lived civilizations this side of the world.

Your birthday has been noted and we encourage you to consider it "happy".

Why thank you, thank you. It shall be "happy" and much joviality shall be had.

October 9th is the US celebration of Columbus' discovery of America (the actual day is the 12th, of course). This holiday has gotten a bit controversial of late, with Native Americans calling for a halt to celebrations of a man they characterize as a racist mass-murderer and Italians fighting them tooth-and-nail.

Thoughts on Columbus, Native Americans, Italians, holidays ... poll coming!
was santa klaus here ?

was santa klaus here ?

No, silly, he lives at the North Poll with his horde of squat, stooped, sharp-clawed, jagged-toothed, insane monstrosities who slave away in his poorly ventilated toy factory.

No, silly, he lives at the North Poll with his horde of squat, stooped, sharp-clawed, jagged-toothed, insane monstrosities who slave away in his poorly ventilated toy factory.
i just knew,i knew that!~~~~~~
thanks Dcd,i'll go to shop now.brrrr! :p

In no small part enabled and encouraged by Europeans.

Of course, they just encouraged existing hostilities. It's a tough thing to create new hostilities out of nothing, much as it's tough to break existing hostilities.

St. Brendan the Navigator found it first and he didn't get large numbers of natives killed because of it.

How exactly does one confirm astrology by experimentation? My horoscope always seems to contain information vague enough that could apply to anyone. Also which kind of Astrology? Mayan, European, Chinese and Indian versions of Astrology would use different combinations of stars and planets and come to different conclusions for the same exact person.

Astronomy is a science, Astrology is pseudoscientific superstition.

Don't forget that, depending upon which source you use, you'll find that you've got multiple different horoscopes each day as well. I once went out of my way to prove to someone that, according to two different astrologers, I was supposed to either A.) Make that big financial leap today or B.) Keep on eye on my cash, and hold on to it because a big deal was coming.

No, silly, he lives at the North Poll with his horde of squat, stooped, sharp-clawed, jagged-toothed, insane monstrosities who slave away in his poorly ventilated toy factory.

http://www.herr-der-ringe-film.de/v2/media/galerie/sonstiges3/londonexh07.jpg

This is the one I captured and penned up!

Lest we forget the Aztecs who never figured out the wheel OR cultural tolerance, but still managed one of the most memorable short-lived civilizations this side of the world.

Actually the Aztecs didn't care who you worshipped, so long as they could rip your heart out and feed it to their gods...

Actually the Aztecs didn't care who you worshipped, so long as they could rip your heart out and feed it to their gods...

Equal opportunity sacrifices it would seem, eh?

Even their own. Excellent population control method.

Columbus' exploration helped to shape the world as it exists today. I can't help but feel a little grateful. He was a courageous explorer and a visionary. He was also a greedy ethnocentric bastard. Just because he was a great man doesn't mean he was a good man.

I think that the good and evil that came out of his journeys should be always kept in context.

Colombus was a racist mass murderer who does not deserve recognition as anything but such.
And the natives were tribalist mass murderers who deserve only that recognition.

I guess we're even, aren't we?

Now then, you can lose the hysterical nonsense and try to post something sensible, can't you?

We have had people like Abraham Lincoln,
Lincoln was a petty tyrant who tried to jail anyone who disagreed with him. He should be reviled as pretty much the inventor of the Imperial Presidency. In fact, the current president is a near-reincarnation of Lincoln.

Well, if you're not going to celebrate October 12 as a day of an Italian in Spanish ships sighting land in the Western Hemisphere, but NOT Continental North America, then please celebrate October 12 for a much better reason: this one (http://maxhedrm.montebellopark.com/blog/media/birthday.jpg).
October 13 is Chris Carter's (X-Files fame).

I think this is a perfect way to celebrate Columbus Day. Why not celebrate by arguing about him? Look at how much I'm learning!!

I get the day off from school, so celebrate!

I get the day off from school, so celebrate!

Yay!

Yay!

*raises beer bottle*

Cheers!

columbus did NOT discover america. and I am not an american. so I do not celebrate columbus day.

Columbus was very much a man of his time. A great explorer and visionary who could also be a total ass.

Yes, yes, America was already discovered, he just stumbled upon it trying to reach Asia (after grossly miscalculating Earth's size), he was a tyrant with his men (in the age of sail and wooden ships, who wasn't?) but still he had the balls to do something no one had tried before (or maybe just a couple of others) and, more importantly, he was able to promote his achievement successfuly and launch European settlement of the American continent.

Of course that wasn't such good news for Americans, but such is life.

St. Brendan the Navigator found it first and he didn't get large numbers of natives killed because of it.

Yes but what he did do was rid Ireland of all snakes. I hate snakes.