NationStates Jolt Archive

This annoys the snerx out of me. http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/10/05/at-columbia-students-attack-minuteman-founder/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nysun.com%2Farticle%2F41020&frame=true

To be brief: he founder of the Minutemen, a volunteer group that monitors the border between the US and Mexico, was attacked by students after being invited to speak at Columbia University.

I don't care if you like or don't like this guy's politics, position or attitude. The Columbia students responsible for this are clearly a bunch of thugs who want to eliminate a dissenting voice.

http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/10/05/at-columbia-students-attack-minuteman-founder/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nysun.com%2Farticle%2F41020&frame=true

they have the Sun in the U.S :eek:

To be brief: he founder of the Minutemen, a volunteer group that monitors the border between the US and Mexico, was attacked by students after being invited to speak at Columbia University.

are we sure this wasn't a university in Columbia that would make much more sense

on the topic: meh young students

good for them

their idiots and they showed that with their banner

what does the border with mexico have anything to do with the arabic language?

and people are illegal when they break the law. their banner made no sense at all and i garuntee most of them have no understanding of the issue at all and most just go along with it because it is against republicans, and as we all know it is cool to be against republicnas

Well in the Columbia students.

Roll on the molotovs for next year.

Fuck the students, fuck the Minutemen and fuck Columbia University.


If I were a columbia student, I would have emptied a huge barrel of eggs over the whoe lot of them as they were leaving the auditorium. :)

Fuck the students, fuck the Minutemen and fuck Columbia University.


If I were a columbia student, I would have emptied a huge barrel of eggs over the whoe lot of them as they were leaving the auditorium. :)
Hmm yes, eggs may have been a better idea - or as a super-idea, how's about putting superglue on their seats and car door-handles... teeheehee.

Hmm yes, eggs may have been a better idea - or as a super-idea, how's about putting superglue on their seats and car door-handles... teeheehee.

or on the steering wheel think of how many lives you would save!

or on the steering wheel think of how many lives you would save!
Urmm... no, the car door/handle would be better, simply because if you were stuck the handle you'd have to drive everywhere, and that's quite a dangerous way to travel.

what does the border with mexico have anything to do with the arabic language?

what does being in favor of the free movement of peoples have to do with the mexican-usian border alone?

and people are illegal when they break the law.

so, ever crossed any streets illegally? littered? changed lanes without signaling?

i hate illegals like you.

their banner made no sense at all

which part did you find confusing, maybe i can explain it to you

I just wonder what sort of reception he expected? Flower petals strewn in his path as he strode to the podium, and hosannahs of praise after his speech?

In a way, appearing on a college campus like Columbia is the equivalent of setting up a strawman arguement in NSG. "I went with my conservative message to a liberal college campus and was heckled! Colleges are ebil!" And who's watching the border while he's traipsing around Manhattan, anyway?

Urmm... no, the car door/handle would be better, simply because if you were stuck the handle you'd have to drive everywhere, and that's quite a dangerous way to travel.

Especally in narrow dorm hallways. :)

I just wonder what sort of reception he expected? Flower petals strewn in his path as he strode to the podium, and hosannahs of praise after his speech?

In a way, appearing on a college campus like Columbia is the equivalent of setting up a strawman arguement in NSG. "I went with my conservative message to a liberal college campus and was heckled! Colleges are ebil!" And who's watching the border while he's traipsing around Manhattan, anyway?

So you have no problem w/ the students trashing the room, assaulting the speaker, and calling one of the black speakers a n*gger?

So you have no problem w/ the students trashing the room, assaulting the speaker, and calling one of the black speakers a n*gger?

Okay, that'll teach me to read the article before commenting. No, that's all pretty extreme and some of it's definitely actionable under the law. Still, what did he expect? Look, college campuses are the natural habitat of the Liberal, just as, say ... well, I'm not sure exactly where I'd find an equal number of conservatives all gathered together. I'm sure there is such a place. I wouldn't worry, though, once they graduate and get jobs and have kids and start earning some money, they'll come around. You know the old saw, "If you are young and not liberal, you have no heart; if you are old and not conservative, you have no brains." I'm not sure I agree totally, but there's a certain sense to it.

Okay, that'll teach me to read the article before commenting. No, that's all pretty extreme and some of it's definitely actionable under the law. Still, what did he expect? Look, college campuses are the natural habitat of the Liberal, just as, say ... well, I'm not sure exactly where I'd find an equal number of conservatives all gathered together. I'm sure there is such a place. I wouldn't worry, though, once they graduate and get jobs and have kids and start earning some money, they'll come around. You know the old saw, "If you are young and not liberal, you have no heart; if you are old and not conservative, you have no brains." I'm not sure I agree totally, but there's a certain sense to it.

Sure. I agree w/ the MM but I also support peaceful protests.

So you have no problem w/ the students trashing the room, assaulting the speaker, and calling one of the black speakers a n*gger?

part the first, no
part the second, nothing wrong with bashing fascists
part the third, what the fuck are you on about?

Look, college campuses are the natural habitat of the Liberal, just as, say ... well, I'm not sure exactly where I'd find an equal number of conservatives all gathered together.

NASCAR races. *nod*

part the first, no
part the second, nothing wrong with bashing fascists
part the third, what the fuck are you on about?

Well, I'm glad you support free speech unless it opposes what you think. In any other setting, this could be called a hate crime. As for the third part, it's been reported in other places besides the netscape link.

Let me get this straight. A group of (Hispanic?) students attack the minutemen, and unroll a banner with English and Arabic on it?

Those students were clearly in the wrong for attacking the founder.

When you disagree with someone, you don't attack them; you try to convince them why they're wrong with words. It's simple.

part the second, nothing wrong with bashing fascists

Bashing with logic and rational thought? Yes, then you're right.

Assault? No.

Bashing with logic and rational thought? Yes, then you're right.

Assault? No.

you don't understand fascism if you have any delusions that its about logic and argument

you don't understand fascism if you have any delusions that its about logic and argument

Ah, the traditional "they're fascists meme so we don't have to allow them to talk" defense. Good arguement.

you don't understand fascism if you have any delusions that its about logic and argument

It's up to us to use logic and argument to prove fascists wrong, and moreso to get them to realize that we're right. Not assault them.

Hmm yes, eggs may have been a better idea - or as a super-idea, how's about putting superglue on their seats and car door-handles... teeheehee.


The article itself said they were unharmed. Did they get scared and that's what the fuss was about? Tone it down a bit It would seem you have to have some sort of harm done to you in order to be attacked. Unless they swung at him and missed I suppose. It's like being attacked by a tennis ball thrown over a fence.

Ah, the traditional "they're fascists meme so we don't have to allow them to talk" defense. Good arguement.

Works for me - A reasonable limitation on freedom of speech is commonplace in many western democracies. Fascists had their day in the 1930s, and don't deserve another kick at the can.

...And you can quote me on that if you like.

Okay, that'll teach me to read the article before commenting. No, that's all pretty extreme and some of it's definitely actionable under the law. Still, what did he expect? Look, college campuses are the natural habitat of the Liberal, just as, say ... well, I'm not sure exactly where I'd find an equal number of conservatives all gathered together. I'm sure there is such a place. I wouldn't worry, though, once they graduate and get jobs and have kids and start earning some money, they'll come around. You know the old saw, "If you are young and not liberal, you have no heart; if you are old and not conservative, you have no brains." I'm not sure I agree totally, but there's a certain sense to it.

He might have expected reasonable security.

On the bright side, I guess it's now an observable fact that it's not only Muslims that are violently opposed to people expressing views they disagree with.

Works for me - A reasonable limitation on freedom of speech is commonplace in many western democracies. Fascists had their day in the 1930s, and don't deserve another kick at the can.

...And you can quote me on that if you like.

Once again, so destroying property, assault, racial epitaphs's, and outright censorship are "reasonable limitations" to you?

Good, I will quote you on that.

you don't understand fascism if you have any delusions that its about logic and argument

You don't understand logic if you think the way to defeat an argument that has completely valid points is to call the people expressing that argument names.

Ah, the traditional "they're fascists meme so we don't have to allow them to talk" defense. Good arguement.

if they weren't fascists but merely morons, it would still be a good thing to interrupt their bullshit. meet the obvious rejoinder of "even more speech". or do you think there is a right to uninterrupted, uncontradicted speech? shouting down stupid fuckers is fine and dandy.


the fact that they are fascists merely means that this isn't a battle than can be won by reason, but must instead be fought by making them look small and weak and afraid and sending them slinking back off to the rocks they crawled out from under.

Once again, so destroying property, assault, racial epitaphs's, and outright censorship are "reasonable limitations" to you?

Good, I will quote you on that.

Misquote me all you like; I care not one whit, for I was responding to your mention of the traditional "they're-fascists-so-we-don't-have-to-allow-them-to-talk-meme". If you want to twist that response to suit your own agenda, so be it. Knowledgable NSers will know that you're full to bursting with nonsensical bullshit - I'm not fretting.

if they weren't fascists but merely morons, it would still be a good thing to interrupt their bullshit. meet the obvious rejoinder of "even more speech". or do you think there is a right to uninterrupted, uncontradicted speech? shouting down stupid fuckers is fine and dandy.

which isn't all that they did, is it? Now you're moving things around. First you say violence is acceptable, now you're shifting to "shouting down"..


the fact that they are fascists merely means that this isn't a battle than can be won by reason, but must instead be fought by making them look small and weak and afraid and sending them slinking back off to the rocks they crawled out from under.

So you admit that it's OK to assault people you disagree w/ by claiming that you can't reason w/ them? Would that be acceptable in other situations?

Misquote me all you like; I care not one whit, for I was responding to your mention of the traditional "they're-fascists-so-we-don't-have-to-allow-them-to-talk-meme". If you want to twist that response to suit your own agenda, so be it. Knowledgable NSers will know that you're full to bursting with nonsensical bullshit - I'm not fretting.

Right, you're supporting FS's statement that it's OK to use violence against those who you claim are "fascists". Now you're dodging around it as well as well as attempting to make insults.

which isn't all that they did, is it? Now you're moving things around. First you say violence is acceptable, now you're shifting to "shouting down"..

that's because i've now seen video of the event. there was no assault.

So you admit that it's OK to assault people you disagree w/ by claiming that you can't reason w/ them? Would that be acceptable in other situations?

depends on the situation. is it up against an ideology that explicitly rejects principles like rationality as weak and instead holds up violence against people like me as an ideal and an actual practice? if so, yes.

You don't understand logic if you think the way to defeat an argument that has completely valid points is to call the people expressing that argument names.

what 'argument' is there to defeat? how do you defeat this 'argument' in the eyes of people that reject argument.

fighting fascists isn't about showing their bad inferences or shitty premises. they don't fucking care about that anyways. its about defending yourself, your community, and your fellow humans against them.

if they weren't fascists but merely morons, it would still be a good thing to interrupt their bullshit. meet the obvious rejoinder of "even more speech". or do you think there is a right to uninterrupted, uncontradicted speech? shouting down stupid fuckers is fine and dandy.


the fact that they are fascists merely means that this isn't a battle than can be won by reason, but must instead be fought by making them look small and weak and afraid and sending them slinking back off to the rocks they crawled out from under.

Not on ly are their arguments reasonable - as can be attested to by the rapifdly deteriorating infrastructure here in LA, but more to the point, even if they aren't reasonable why do you care? Your argument isn't with them. It's up to you to convince the public that they are wrong. Why would you waste your time trying to convince the Minutemen? Your tactic seems to be, I disagree with you so I want to limit the public's access to your speech.

that's because i've now seen video of the event. there was no assault.

Then you're watching a different video than I am.



depends on the situation. is it up against an ideology that explicitly rejects principles like rationality as weak and instead holds up violence against people like me as an ideal and an actual practice? if so, yes.

So you have proof of the "instead holds up violence against people like me as an ideal and an actual practice "? Seems you're the one justifying the use of violence, not them.

You can use all the subjective terms to justify violence against your opponent to squelch their free speech as you want, it makes you more in line w/ fascist policies than the MM.

Wait a second how are the Facist?
And don't quote their anti immigrant minority feelings, that's not facist. Maybe racist but not facist.

what 'argument' is there to defeat? how do you defeat this 'argument' in the eyes of people that reject argument.

fighting fascists isn't about showing their bad inferences or shitty premises. they don't fucking care about that anyways. its about defending yourself, your community, and your fellow humans against them.

Seems the ones needing to defend their rights against violence and censorship are the MM.

what 'argument' is there to defeat? how do you defeat this 'argument' in the eyes of people that reject argument.You don't have to defeat this argument in the eyes of people who already reject it.

fighting fascists isn't about showing their bad inferences or shitty premises. they don't fucking care about that anyways. its about defending yourself, your community, and your fellow humans against them.

They're not fasctists - not by any definition but your own which is anyone who is against illegal immigration and the current mess at our borders. Well, I have news for you. I am against illegal immigration. I live in a city where we have now lost 10 emergency care centers in teh last five years to illegal immigration. I live in a city where 40% of our jail population are illgal immigrants at a time when the governor just had to declare a state of emergency in our penal system due to overcrowdingso they could move prisoners our of state. I live in a city who's schools are amongst the worst in the nation where 70% of the students don't speak English.

Whether you want to hear it or not, there are completely legitimate arguments for shutting down our borders and stopping, or at least slowing as much as possible, the flow of illegal immigration and calling people fascists for pointing them out and violently trying to stop teh public from hearing them is simply a way to say you can't win on the facts so you'll squash what they have to say. That's fascism. As a matter in fact, it's exactly the tactic used by fascists to take power.

You don't have to defeat this argument in the eyes of people who already reject it.



They're not fasctists - not by any definition but your own which is anyone who is against illegal immigration and the current mess at our borders. Well, I have news for you. I am against illegal immigration. I live in a city where we have now lost 10 emergency care centers in teh last five years to illegal immigration. I live in a city where 40% of our jail population are illgal immigrants at a time when the governor just had to declare a state of emergency in our penal system due to overcrowdingso they could move prisoners our of state. I live in a city who's schools are amongst the worst in the nation where 70% of the students don't speak English.

Whether you want to hear it or not, there are completely legitimate arguments for shutting down our borders and stopping, or at least slowing as much as possible, the flow of illegal immigration and calling people fascists for pointing them out and violently trying to stop teh public from hearing them is simply a way to say you can't win on the facts so you'll squash what they have to say. That's fascism. As a matter in fact, it's exactly the tactic used by fascists to take power.

While we don't agree on everything, you just said it much more clearly than I did.

Not on ly are their arguments reasonable...

which? the times when they rant about the mexican army or drug lords or whatever crossing the border to attack them? or when they start gibbering about their favorite nazi myth of how all the hispanics in the country actually are an invasion force for the coming reconquista. or maybe it's their whole idea, that what this country really needs are armed border vigilantes that are directly inspired by and modelled on a string of neo-nazi and other fascist groups doing the exact same goddamned thing?

It's up to you to convince the public that they are wrong. Why would you waste your time trying to convince the Minutemen? Your tactic seems to be, I disagree with you so I want to limit the public's access to your speech.

we make arguments to those not already committed, for those on whom arguments can work. but in all fascist movements, the committment largely comes from emotional or psychological facts, not from rational arguments. the only 'argument' that actually works for most people who are attracted to such movements is to make the leaders and group members look weak and small - to make them the objects of ridicule and send them running away.

Wait a second how are the Facist?

if it operates like a fascist, talks like a fascist, appeals deeply to known fascists, hangs out with known fascists, and has a historical connection to other fascists, it's probably not a cheeseburger

which? the times when they rant about the mexican army or drug lords or whatever crossing the border to attack them? or when they start gibbering about their favorite nazi myth of how all the hispanics in the country actually are an invasion force for the coming reconquista. or maybe it's their whole idea, that what this country really needs are armed border vigilantes that are directly inspired by and modelled on a string of neo-nazi and other fascist groups doing the exact same goddamned thing?



we make arguments to those not already committed, for those on whom arguments can work. but in all fascist movements, the committment largely comes from emotional or psychological facts, not from rational arguments. the only 'argument' that actually works for most people who are attracted to such movements is to make the leaders and group members look weak and small - to make them the objects of ridicule and send them running away.



Uh huh. And pushing censorship, violence, and rasicsm will discourage them. Right. So far the only emotional arguements have been from the ones actually using fascist tactics, (ie the "protestors)

which? the times when they rant about the mexican army or drug lords or whatever crossing the border to attack them? Yes. Also when they talk about our decaying schools, streets, jails, healthcares systems - you know the stuff they talk about way more than when they "rant" about drug trafficers or Mexican Army escorting drug runners.


or when they start gibbering about their favorite nazi myth of how all the hispanics in the country actually are an invasion force for the coming reconquista. or maybe it's their whole idea, that what this country really needs are armed border vigilantes that are directly inspired by and modelled on a string of neo-nazi and other fascist groups doing the exact same goddamned thing?Bullshit. They say we need citizens at the border because the Federal government refuses to do anything about it. They know they can't do anything themselves, but they are also aware that this kind of thing can embarrass the Fed into action - and it's working.



we make arguments to those not already committed, for those on whom arguments can work.Then why try tyo villently squelch opposing arguments? Just proesent yours and let people decide for themselves.

but in all fascist movements, the committment largely comes from emotional or psychological facts, not from rational arguments. the only 'argument' that actually works for most people who are attracted to such movements is to make the leaders and group members look weak and small - to make them the objects of ridicule and send them running away.

Again, you don't need to change their minds. Why are you worried about it? You only need to present your arguments and let the public decide.

I live in a city where we have now lost 10 emergency care centers in teh last five years to illegal immigration.

what, did they burn them down?

I live in a city where 40% of our jail population are illgal immigrants at a time when the governor just had to declare a state of emergency in our penal system due to overcrowding

of course, anyone arrested without papers isn't exactly going to get out on bail. basically that situation is a feature of the system combined with the effects of the drug war. since both the system and the drug war are unjust and ought be abolished, the problem is only real so long as we keep propping up an unjust state of affairs.

I live in a city who's schools are amongst the worst in the nation where 70% of the students don't speak English.

i heard a rumor that people who don't speak english are not necessarily stupid or even bad at school. i thought it was crazy at the time too, but i looked it up, and it turns out to be true. so maybe there is some issue with the way the schools in your area are funded and run, no?

Again, you don't need to change their minds. Why are you worried about it?

because letting fascism fester is fucking dangerous.

So you admit that it's OK to assault people you disagree w/ by claiming that you can't reason w/ them? Would that be acceptable in other situations?I can't speak forFree Soviets, but my take is this:

The Minutemen shit is actively trying to hurt "illegals". They're not trying to resolve anything, they're simply out to get a few o' those subhuman Mexi-scumbags nicked.

They're causing harm, and doing it to cause harm.

The only rational response to that is to throw a fucking bootparty & make sure the vile twats are incapable of pulling their shit. Maybe, just maybe they'd be willing to resolve the problem, then instead adding to it.

Violence breeds violence. When you are man enough to create a movement for the sole purpose of getting people in trouble for wanting a better life, then you are man enough to face people doing the same to you. That's the long & short of it. As conservatives are prone to say: "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime". It's equally true when you cause harm legally.

if it operates like a fascist, talks like a fascist, appeals deeply to known fascists, hangs out with known fascists, and has a historical connection to other fascists, it's probably not a cheeseburger

I agree. These students used the exact same fascist tactics that are often used by the pro-illegal immigration movement. This episode is nothing new. They've lied, attacked and done everything they can to try to stop the voices of those who want our borders secured from being heard. Thankfully they have failed.

I can't speak forFree Soviets, but my take is this:

The Minutemen shit is actively trying to hurt "illegals". They're not trying to resolve anything, they're simply out to get a few o' those subhuman Mexi-scumbags nicked.

They're causing harm, and doing it to cause harm.

The only rational response to that is to throw a fucking bootparty & make sure the vile twats are incapable of pulling their shit. Maybe, just maybe they'd be willing to resolve the problem, then instead adding to it.

Violence breeds violence. When you are man enough to create a movement for the sole purpose of getting people in trouble for wanting a better life, then you are man enough to face people doing the same to you. That's the long & short of it. As conservatives are prone to say: "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime". It's equally true when you cause harm legally.

So helping the authorities in upholding the law is now "fascist" and "racist"? They "cause harm legally" by alerting authorities to people illegally entering the country?

As a supporter of illegal immigrants and open borders, I have to say this:

From the information I have received, the protestors were wrong to try to stifle debate. The Minutemen, as xenophobic and ignorant as they may be, are not fascist. Their freedom of speech is more important than my feelings. It is as important as my freedom of speech when I defend immigrant rights.

because letting fascism fester is fucking dangerous.

I agree. This is why we need to charge those students with crimes. If we allow them to continue to use these kinds of fascist tactics to prevent people's points of view from being heard then who knows where it will stop. As far as your point of view is concerned, tell it from teh mountain. If you're convinced you're right and people should be allowed to just walk into this country at anytime without so much as an ID check then speak loudly about it. You have a president that supports you in that view so you don't have to worry about having yoru freedom of speech opporessed. The oppossing view, the one espoused by the minutemen, never seem to violently suppress pro-illegal immigration sentiment, it's just teh other way around as far as I can see so you shouldn't have any problem getting your viewpoints heard.

As a supporter of illegal immigrants and open borders, I have to say this:

From the information I have received, the protestors were wrong to try to stifle debate. The Minutemen, as xenophobic and ignorant as they may be, are not fascist. Their freedom of speech is more important than my feelings. It is as important as my freedom of speech when I defend immigrant rights.

You obviously did not attend that university. :)

I can't speak forFree Soviets, but my take is this:

The Minutemen shit is actively trying to hurt "illegals". They're not trying to resolve anything, they're simply out to get a few o' those subhuman Mexi-scumbags nicked.No, they are out to stop the bleeding from our healthcare system, our schools, our prisons and jails, the declining payscale for labor due to the influx of cheap lablor and a host of other problems directly linked to illegal immigration.

They're causing harm, and doing it to cause harm.

The only rational response to that is to throw a fucking bootparty & make sure the vile twats are incapable of pulling their shit. Maybe, just maybe they'd be willing to resolve the problem, then instead adding to it.

Violence breeds violence. When you are man enough to create a movement for the sole purpose of getting people in trouble for wanting a better life, then you are man enough to face people doing the same to you. That's the long & short of it. As conservatives are prone to say: "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime". It's equally true when you cause harm legally.

I've yet to see a Minuteman ever be violent. I have yet to see one of them try to stop a person with an opposing point of view be heard. I only see that from teh pro-illegal immigration sid of the debate and I see it all the time.

I agree. These students used the exact same fascist tactics that are often used by the pro-illegal immigration movement.

you aren't honestly trying to say that jumping on a stage with some banners and telling racists to shut up and get the fuck out of town is fascism, are you?

So helping the authorities in upholding the law is now "fascist" and "racist"? They "cause harm legally" by alerting authorities to people illegally entering the country?You divined that from my post? Damn.. Look, it's not polite to do that kind of kick-ass drugs without sharing.

The immigration issue won't be solved by punishing would-be immigrants. The problem isn't that law enforcement can't catch enough people, the problem is that half your neighbours population are willing to risk everything they have, personal freedom included, for a chance to improve their lives to sub-American standard.
The wannabe-vigilante Minutemen are simply aggrivating the problem by making as many would-be immigrants as miserable as they possinly can. For the sake of doing it.

You see, it is your duty to resist when the law is unjust. It's also your duty to protect your fellow human beings from those who'd pray on them for kicks - like the Minutemen.

If it was illegal for him to transport his kids to school, cracking down on wankers who got kicks from getting him in trouble over it would be just as warrented as curbing Minutemen.

By the way, the scariest thing about this whole thing is that Columbia University is most well known for it's journalism programs.

You know, journalsim? The profession where you're supposed to be fanatically in favor of first amendment rights?

you aren't honestly trying to say that jumping on a stage with some banners and telling racists to shut up and get the fuck out of town is fascism, are you?

* as he ignores the part of vandalizing the advertisements, yelling racial epitaphs, and committing assault* (again)

Remember folks, free speech is only for those you agree w/, everyone else can be restricted and censored.

* as he ignores the part of vandalizing the advertisements, yelling racial epitaphs, and committing assault* (again)

oh noes!1! somebody removed signs that were put up on bulletin boards and telephone poles! call out the national guard!

and seriously, show me evidence of these 'racial epitaphs' and 'assault'

No, they are out to stop the bleeding from our healthcare system, our schools, our prisons and jails, the declining payscale for labor due to the influx of cheap lablor and a host of other problems directly linked to illegal immigration.



I've yet to see a Minuteman ever be violent. I have yet to see one of them try to stop a person with an opposing point of view be heard. I only see that from teh pro-illegal immigration sid of the debate and I see it all the time.


How do illegals get healthcare? All the ones I know, and knew, have and had a lot of difficulty getting even emergency treatment. Same for schooling.
As for prisons and jails, why don't you just deport them to Mexico?

You divined that from my post? Damn.. Look, it's not polite to do that kind of kick-ass drugs without sharing.

Nice assumption.

The immigration issue won't be solved by punishing would-be immigrants.

You mean the ones illegally coming into the US?

The problem isn't that law enforcement can't catch enough people, the problem is that half your neighbours population are willing to risk everything they have, personal freedom included, for a chance to improve their lives to sub-American standard.

Of course the fact that over 10% of the ones illegally crossing the border are prior violent criminals/drug dealers/ etc.
The wannabe-vigilante Minutemen are simply aggrivating the problem by making as many would-be immigrants as miserable as they possinly can. For the sake of doing it.

By alerting the authorities. Right.

You see, it is your duty to resist when the law is unjust. It's also your duty to protect your fellow human beings from those who'd pray on them for kicks - like the Minutemen.

Nice attacks there w/ no basis. Lots of people don't feel that restricting immigration is "unjust". Find me a country w/ completely open borders. Demonizing your opponent is a good tactic when your arguement is weak.

If it was illegal for him to transport his kids to school, cracking down on wankers who got kicks from getting him in trouble over it would be just as warrented as curbing Minutemen.

False analogy. Going to school is legal. Crossing a border w/o a passport is not. More apt analogy. I'm going to come to your house, squat on your land, and use your utilities. I think the law of private ownership is unjust. Now, by your arguement, it would be wrong for you to call the police to remove me.

you aren't honestly trying to say that jumping on a stage with some banners and telling racists to shut up and get the fuck out of town is fascism, are you?

They didn't just jump on stage. They trashed the place and threw shit and were it not for the feeble security that was there may have physically attacked the speakers. Yes. That's exactly how the Nazis and Fascists took power in Italy and Germany - and I mean EXACTLY the tactics they used. It's like they took a page directly from Mein Kampf. First, suppress all opposing viewpoints - violently if you have to and well, they haven't gotten to second yet and hopefully won't. I know out here they are trying to sue radio stations in court who oppose illegal immigration.

you aren't honestly trying to say that jumping on a stage with some banners and telling racists to shut up and get the fuck out of town is fascism, are you?


No. The attempt to stifle debate by "jumping on a stage with some banners and telling racists to shut up and get the fuck out of town" is more reminiscent of fascism than peaceful debate.

How do illegals get healthcare? All the ones I know, and knew, have and had a lot of difficulty getting even emergency treatment. Same for schooling. What country do you live in? The reason we are losing our emergency medical centers here in southern california is because it is illegal to refuse treatment for anyone. Illegal aliens with runny noses show up to the emergency rooms by the thousands every day so they can get some free over the counter cold medicine and not have to pay. Same with schools. It's illegal to turn someone away from education - illegal or not. Hell, out here in CA they just passed a bill that would have given FREE tuition at california community colleges to illegal immigrants. Legal immigrants and citizens would still have to pay - probably a lot more to subsidize the educations of illegal immigrants - but Arnold vetoed it, thankfully.

As for prisons and jails, why don't you just deport them to Mexico?
Good question. Mostly because pro illegal immigrant legislation has made it against the law to deport them for anything less than a felony.

oh noes!1! somebody removed signs that were put up on bulletin boards and telephone poles! call out the national guard!

So you are now supporting vandalizm and censorship

and seriously, show me evidence of these 'racial epitaphs' and 'assault'[/QUOTE]

Well, being that you're selectively watching the video.

"The video of the event shows campus police officers — paid for by the Columbia College Republicans — standing by just feet away as students overturned tables and chairs onstage and proceeded to attack Mr. Gilchrist and his fellow Minuteman, Marvin Stewart."

""Minutemen, Nazis, KKK ... racist fascists go away." (black KKK?)

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCampus.asp?Page=/Campus/archive/200610/CAM20061005a.html
http://www.nysun.com/article/41020

The College campus, especially the liberal ivy league, are no longer safe harbor for the free exchange of thoughts and ideas.

and the arabic writing on the poster was some sort of anti-jewish "zionist conspiracy" sort of message. not sure how the jewish people got into this, but it shows what kind of people were involved in this.

the most disturbing part of all of this though was that members of the faculty were also said to be involved. this is inexcusable.

and one of the black speakers was called a racial epithet. So if you can't win an argument with a conservative, call him a racist; but if he is black, call him a ******.

good going Columbia.

The way I see it is:
Those of us here legally have to pay for college legally. Those that came here legally didn't win some magic lottery. They went through the process. Many of them hate seeing some guy enjoy all the perks of our society(free education for his kids, somewhat average-above average healthcare, etc.) without having to deal with taxes or medical bills just because he crossed some poorly defended desert.

Then, some "racists"(how dare they try to help defend the border from illegally cheap labor) want to have some peaceful debate like the evil violent nazi fascists they are. Some freedom loving students use some non-fascist tactics(you know, trying everything in their physical power to stop the evil that is called "different viewpoint") to righteously keep the fascists quiet before they(MM) could fascistly disagree with them(freedomlovers). I kinda see the irony of using fascist tactics to quell "fascists".

The College campus, especially the liberal ivy league, are no longer safe harbor for the free exchange of thoughts and ideas.

and the arabic writing on the poster was some sort of anti-jewish "zionist conspiracy" sort of message. not sure how the jewish people got into this, but it shows what kind of people were involved in this.

the most disturbing part of all of this though was that members of the faculty were also said to be involved. this is inexcusable.

and one of the black speakers was called a racial epithet. So if you can't win an argument with a conservative, call him a racist; but if he is black, call him a ******.

good going Columbia.



One of the "protesters" told the paper that the MM have no right to free speech so the protesters had every justification to use their free speech and trash the place.

The way I see it is:
Those of us here legally have to pay for college legally. Those that came here legally didn't win some magic lottery. They went through the process. Many of them hate seeing some guy enjoy all the perks of our society(free education for his kids, somewhat average-above average healthcare, etc.) without having to deal with taxes or medical bills just because he crossed some poorly defended desert.

Then, some "racists"(how dare they try to help defend the border from illegally cheap labor) want to have some peaceful debate like the evil violent nazi fascists they are. Some freedom loving students use some non-fascist tactics(you know, trying everything in their physical power to stop the evil that is called "different viewpoint") to righteously keep the fascists quiet before they(MM) could fascistly disagree with them(freedomlovers). I kinda see the irony of using fascist tactics to quell "fascists".

Indeed, they are like secular witch hunters in a modern day Salem.

What country do you live in? The reason we are losing our emergency medical centers here in southern california is because it is illegal to refuse treatment for anyone. Illegal aliens with runny noses show up to the emergency rooms by the thousands every day so they can get some free over the counter cold medicine and not have to pay. Same with schools. It's illegal to turn someone away from education - illegal or not. Hell, out here in CA they just passed a bill that would have given FREE tuition at california community colleges to illegal immigrants. Legal immigrants and citizens would still have to pay - probably a lot more to subsidize the educations of illegal immigrants - but Arnold vetoed it, thankfully.


Good question. Mostly because pro illegal immigrant legislation has made it against the law to deport them for anything less than a felony.

I live in Canada, where all necessary healthcare is free to citizens, and you have to show a health insurance card to get free treatment, unless you are being carried in on a stretcher, in which case they bill you later if they find out you are not a citizen.

Even if you come from another province, you technically have to pay for using the host province's health care system. If you have the health insurance card from your home province, the service provider then automatically charges your home province. Legal immigrants have varying rights and responsibilities, but everyone has to show valid paperwork to get treatment. The only exception is for immediate and life threatening injuries and diseases.

Education is similar. Since the government subsidises a lot of education, everyone gets it, provided they show paperwork. The papers you have determine the rate you are charged. As a citizen, I pay the minimum. Foreign students pay anywhere from three to ten times the amount I pay to attend the same classes. Illegals can't even access the system.

and seriously, show me evidence of these 'racial epitaphs'
"Minutemen, Nazis, KKK ... racist fascists go away." (black KKK?)

that's just pathetic. are you even pretending to try?

So you have no problem w/ the students...calling one of the black speakers a n*gger?

I live in Canada. *snip*

Okay, then it's irrelevent. When your free healthcare system gets overrun and your taxes increase tenfold to deal with the influx then come back and talk about it. Here, if you show up in an emergency room with a stubbed toe they have to give you a stint and bill you later - whether or not you intend to pay and whether or not you are a citizen and whether or not you have ever payed.

They didn't just jump on stage.

yeah, there was a bunch of noise too

They trashed the place and threw shit and were it not for the feeble security that was there may have physically attacked the speakers.

no, no, and no. just factually untrue. some tables and chairs got knocked over in the scuffle as fascists and their allies in the young republicans attempted to disrupt the free speech of the people with the banners by attacking them to take their signs away and force them off the stage.

check it out, two can play this game.

Yes. That's exactly how the Nazis and Fascists took power in Italy and Germany - and I mean EXACTLY the tactics they used. It's like they took a page directly from Mein Kampf.

haha. kid, i like you, you're funny

The real irony is that an illegal immigrant probably swept the messy auditorium afterward. :D

yeah, there was a bunch of noise too



no, no, and no. just factually untrue. some tables and chairs got knocked over in the scuffle as fascists and their allies in the young republicans attempted to disrupt the free speech of the people with the banners by attacking them to take their signs away and force them off the stage.

check it out, two can play this game. The border security speakers were invited to speak at that facility. The facility was slated for their use. The pro illegal immigration fascists jumped on stage, threw objuetcs at the speakers and attempted to storm the stage. The security at the event stopped the. That's what happened. The fascists with their proillegal immigrant signs and their stupid, rhetorical slogans, the ones they resort to when they have no logical arguments, had every right to speak their minds - as soon as they rented the facility and had their rally - and I'll bet not one single pro border security person would have attempted to storm the stage and attack the speakers because they're not fascists.



haha. kid, i like you, you're funny

Thanks. makes me feel almost as goos as when I get carded at the bar. Still happens occasionally which is pretty cool since I've been old enough to drink for, well, over a decade anyway.

Nice assumption.Nowhere near as good as all yours, but I do try, so thanks.You mean the ones illegally coming into the US?Indeed I do. Wasn't that pretty fucking obvious?Of course the fact that over 10% of the ones illegally crossing the border are prior violent criminals/drug dealers/ etc.Justifies not trying to solve the problem, but simply criminalize & persecute the lot.

Something tells me that you haven't realised the difference between human beings & objects. Perhaps you should go join those Minutemen.By alerting the authorities. Right.Yups. Citizen informants in DDR made as many human beings as miserable as possible by alerting the authorities as well. That something is legal neither makes it right nor just, my little authoritarian.Nice attacks there w/ no basis. Lots of people don't feel that restricting immigration is "unjust". Find me a country w/ completely open borders. Demonizing your opponent is a good tactic when your arguement is weak.I'm not demonizing my opponent. I couldn't if I tried. But nice strawman.

You see, if you wish to resolve the problem, you don't do it by attacking the symptoms. If you don't want them to mess up the job market, thenenforce employment legislation & tightern it up if needed. If, for example, you took away everything the business owners/stockholders own & deprived them of freedom for employing illegal imigrants, no one would.

Immigrants, legal or not, aren't stealing or taking anything. You're giving it to them. If you want that to stop, then stop yourself. You're the masters of your society. You can moderate your behaviour perfectly easily without resorting to mass punishment of outsiders.False analogy. Going to school is legal. Crossing a border w/o a passport is not. More apt analogy. I'm going to come to your house, squat on your land, and use your utilities. I think the law of private ownership is unjust. Now, by your arguement, it would be wrong for you to call the police to remove me.Bollox.
You claim illegal immigration is a burden on your community, because your community rewards a significant procentage of immigrants with crap you want, and spends your taxes on punishing the rest. Your proposed solution is to punish the lot of them.

That you cannot fathom that punishing people for your ineptitude is obscene, isn't my problem. If you're immine to sense, then it's your loss. That you cannot comprehend that no amount of discouragement is enough when people are desperate & have a real chance, can't ever be on me. I do, however, reserve the right to do unto you as you do unto others. That means if you're man enough to harm defenseless people for trying to improve their lives, then you're man enough to get the same damn treatment. That it's legal for you & illegal for me makes no damn difference.

I find it mildly ammusing how this "debate" repeatedly hammers Free Soviet's point home.

that's just pathetic. are you even pretending to try?

Pathetic, as in supporting fascist tactics to censor "fascists"? As in denouncing free speech by claiming free speech?

OMG, so I can't find the link I saw earlier, I guess we should just take your word on everything.

had every right to speak their minds - as soon as they rented the facility and had their rally

so it's not actually about free speech at all then? it's about user fees and scheduling conflicts?

Nowhere near as good as all yours, but I do try, so thanks.Indeed I do. Wasn't that pretty fucking obvious?Justifies not trying to solve the problem, but simply criminalize & persecute the lot.

Justifies what now? By working to stop people from breaking the law?

Something tells me that you haven't realised the difference between human beings & objects. Perhaps you should go join those Minutemen.Yups. Citizen informants in DDR made as many human beings as miserable as possible by alerting the authorities as well. That something is legal neither makes it right nor just, my little authoritarian.I'm not demonizing my opponent. I couldn't if I tried. But nice strawman.

Something tells me making red herrings and false assumptions to demonize your opponent is the best you've been able to offer. Find me that country w/ completely open borders please.

You see, if you wish to resolve the problem, you don't do it by attacking the symptoms. If you don't want them to mess up the job market, thenenforce employment legislation & tightern it up if needed. If, for example, you took away everything the business owners/stockholders own & deprived them of freedom for employing illegal imigrants, no one would.

And what does that have to do w/ anything.

Immigrants, legal or not, aren't stealing or taking anything. You're giving it to them. If you want that to stop, then stop yourself. You're the masters of your society. You can moderate your behaviour perfectly easily without resorting to mass punishment of outsiders.Bollox.
You claim illegal immigration is a burden on your community, because your community rewards a significant procentage of immigrants with crap you want, and spends your taxes on punishing the rest. Your proposed solution is to punish the lot of them.

Punish law breakers and stop giving them benefits that citizens pay for, right.

That you cannot fathom that punishing people for your ineptitude is obscene, isn't my problem. If you're immine to sense, then it's your loss. That you cannot comprehend that no amount of discouragement is enough when people are desperate & have a real chance, can't ever be on me. I do, however, reserve the right to do unto you as you do unto others. That means if you're man enough to harm defenseless people for trying to improve their lives, then you're man enough to get the same damn treatment. That it's legal for you & illegal for me makes no damn difference.

and more personal attacks. Nice that you completely avoid the comparison now that it doesn't support you.

I find it mildly ammusing how this "debate" repeatedly hammers Free Soviet's point home.

That it perfectly acceptable to attack those you disagree w/?

so it's not actually about free speech at all then? it's about user fees and scheduling conflicts?

Apparently not. The pro illegal immigration fascists don't believe in free speech for anyone who disagres with them. If you think border secudity is important and you feel you'd like to have a confernce about the problems associated with illegal immigration the pro illegal immigration fascists will come and try to drown out your speech, often violently, because they don't want the public to be able to hear both sides of the argument and make up their own minds.

As for fees, it was probably free. This was student sponsored event at the school so if there was a fee it was probably negligible. The pro illegal immigration fascists I'm sure would be able to get the same hall for their own conference on another day. But that's not what this was about. It was about punishing people for saying something that these fascists didn't want other people to hear.

Okay, then it's irrelevent. When your free healthcare system gets overrun and your taxes increase tenfold to deal with the influx then come back and talk about it. Here, if you show up in an emergency room with a stubbed toe they have to give you a stint and bill you later - whether or not you intend to pay and whether or not you are a citizen and whether or not you have ever payed.

It is not irrelevant because it shows that the problem exists with your laws and policies. The problem is not that illegal immigrants are abusing them. It is that they are designed to be open to abuse.

My healthcare and taxation system will not be overrun by anyone because they are designed to be accessed solely by citizens.

And I will talk about it right now, thank you very much.

Perhaps US legislators can think about changing the laws so that if you show up at the emergency room with a stubbed toe, you either show paperwork or pay cash, instead of blaming the people who use such a ludicrous system to get themselves healthcare.

are we sure this wasn't a university in Columbia that would make much more sense




It is as close to a university "in Columbia [sic]" as you will find anywhere in the world, save perhaps Georgetown.

Here's some typical pro illegal immigration fascists, racist tactics on display out here in CA.

A couple of times, unwelcome people came into the counter-protesting crowd to take photos or video, and were quickly surrounded by an angry crowd and pelted with water bottles and debris. Shouts of "you little white b-" were directed at a blond woman; a man yelled "Get out of here, this is our town" through a bullhorn to others.

Some wearing lucha libre masks and some with bandannas obscuring their faces, counter-protesters tried to get close to the SOS demonstrators by cutting down side streets leading to Slauson, and were angry when the cops were already there. Others manned the front lines with signs depicting Arnold Schwarzenegger as a Nazi, chanting "Minutemen! Resist! They're the real terrorists."

Toward the end of the counter-demonstration, those protesters raised the Mexican flag on the pole in front of the U.S. Post Office. Don Silva of SOS said one woman with his group was assaulted while trying to move through the opposition crowd, and some of their cars had tires slashed and were vandalized.

Maywood, regardless of its demographics, is still within the United States of America, and still falls under the laws of this country. Lobby against those laws if you feel they're unfair; that's the beauty of our system.

But when you have virulent protests that include a pre-teen boy yelling "f- that white b-" at a passing fair-skinned woman - me - something is seriously wrong. Especially when it comes from the side holding a banner that proclaimed "Say NO to racism."

http://www.dailynews.com/search/ci_4258266

It is not irrelevant because it shows that the problem exists with your laws and policies. The problem is not that illegal immigrants are abusing them. It is that they are designed to be open to abuse.

My healthcare and taxation system will not be overrun by anyone because they are designed to be accessed solely by citizens.

And I will talk about it right now, thank you very much.

Perhaps US legislators can think about changing the laws so that if you show up at the emergency room with a stubbed toe, you either show paperwork or pay cash, instead of blaming the people who use such a ludicrous system to get themselves healthcare.

I couldn't agree more. As far as I'm concerned illegal immigrants should be denied anything but real emergency healthcare. They should also be denied education, welfare, housing and work. Unfortunately that is not the case. We're trying, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoticDan View Post
Yes. That's exactly how the Nazis and Fascists took power in Italy and Germany - and I mean EXACTLY the tactics they used. It's like they took a page directly from Mein Kampf.

haha. kid, i like you, you're funny

Interesting, Free Soviets. Laughing at reality is usually a good thing. Not this time, I think.

PsychoticDan is absolutely correct. Particularly in Germany, the fascists used this particular tactic more than any other radical group. Hitler is once reputed to have said "keep any other argument from reaching their ears and you can lead the populace around like a trained dog."

You've overused and misused the term "fascist" so often as to have robbed it of any real meaning. The Minutemen are nothing like a fascist group, but because you oppose their politics, you trot out the old saw yet again - and yet are so blind that you cannot see the truly fascist tactics used by those opposing them.
Some of the verbiage of the Minutemen is extreme, yes. But consider them by their actions. They are guilty only of pushing a political viewpoint - and a popular one, at that - and assisting law enforcement in rounding up lawbreakers. In other words, of doing their civic duty as citizens.

In contrast, the Columbia students are clearly guilty of riot, assault, criminal damage and vandalism, all in a desperate and pathetic attempt to silence someone's views they did not agree with.

We cannot judge you by your actions, but only by your words. And those words boil down to "The ends justify the means."

It is you who are parroting the words of Adolf Hitler.

It is not irrelevant because it shows that the problem exists with your laws and policies. The problem is not that illegal immigrants are abusing them. It is that they are designed to be open to abuse.

My healthcare and taxation system will not be overrun by anyone because they are designed to be accessed solely by citizens.

And I will talk about it right now, thank you very much.

Perhaps US legislators can think about changing the laws so that if you show up at the emergency room with a stubbed toe, you either show paperwork or pay cash, instead of blaming the people who use such a ludicrous system to get themselves healthcare.

Denying an illegal immigrant healthcare in our country because of their immigration status would set off more controversy than patrolling and sealing the borders. The media would have a field day with that one.

Yes, the laws here in America need to be enforced and/or clarified but another important matter that must be dealt with is the corruption and incompetence of the Mexican government to take care of its own people. Mexico has enough wealth and resources to take care of their population. There is little reason why so many in their country live in the conditions they live. Pressure needs to be put on this corrupt and uncooperative government. As far as they are concerned, if their poor are fleeing to America then they do not have to worry about political unrest over government and economic reform in their own country.

It is you who are parroting the words of Adolf Hitler.

And Mussolini, Franco, Mao, Stalin, Mugabe, and .....

Mexico has enough wealth and resources to take care of their population. There is little reason why so many in their country live in the conditions they live. Pressure needs to be put on this corrupt and uncooperative government. As far as they are concerned, if their poor are fleeing to America then they do not have to worry about political unrest over government and economic reform in their own country.

The U.S. has the most billionaires in the world. What country comes in second? Germany? Japan? The UK?

No - Mexico has the second most billionaires in the world.

Free Soviets, I just want to ask you something:

IF the "minuteman" founder was actually physically assaulted--as in, they got on the stage and beat him--you wouldn't support the beating, would you?

Free Soviets, I just want to ask you something:

IF the "minuteman" founder was actually physically assaulted--as in, they got on the stage and beat him--you wouldn't support the beating, would you?

yes. Thank you. I, too, am curious to read the response. :) Is it okay to beat the crap out of "fascists" who espouse view you disagree with?

Interesting, Free Soviets. Laughing at reality is usually a good thing. Not this time, I think.

PsychoticDan is absolutely correct. Particularly in Germany, the fascists used this particular tactic more than any other radical group. Hitler is once reputed to have said "keep any other argument from reaching their ears and you can lead the populace around like a trained dog."

yes, it was the jumping on stages with banners that allowed the nazis to take power. it's so obvious!

You've overused and misused the term "fascist" so often as to have robbed it of any real meaning. The Minutemen are nothing like a fascist group, but because you oppose their politics, you trot out the old saw yet again - and yet are so blind that you cannot see the truly fascist tactics used by those opposing them.
Some of the verbiage of the Minutemen is extreme, yes. But consider them by their actions.

if you have a group spouting rhetoric that comes directly from fascist groups, which deeply appeals to members of other fascist groups such that they were the early adopters and promoters of said group, whose leaders have ties to other fascist groups, and whose plan of action was lifted wholesale from the essentially identical actions of other fascist groups over the past few decades, there can be only one logical conclusion. it is inescapable if you are at all intellectually honest.

They are guilty only of pushing a political viewpoint - and a popular one, at that - and assisting law enforcement in rounding up lawbreakers. In other words, of doing their civic duty as citizens.

popularity can't save it from its pedigree and implications.

and an unjust law is no law at all - in fact it is your civic duty to break unjust laws. to quote something from a couple posts back,


That you cannot fathom that punishing people for your ineptitude is obscene, isn't my problem. If you're immine to sense, then it's your loss. That you cannot comprehend that no amount of discouragement is enough when people are desperate & have a real chance, can't ever be on me. I do, however, reserve the right to do unto you as you do unto others. That means if you're man enough to harm defenseless people for trying to improve their lives, then you're man enough to get the same damn treatment. That it's legal for you & illegal for me makes no damn difference.

The U.S. has the most billionaires in the world. What country comes in second? Germany? Japan? The UK?

No - Mexico has the second most billionaires in the world.

The last six years of Vicente Fox have been terrible for Mexico in this aspect. Instead of coming up with a sound strategy to spread wealth and combat poverty, his hopes were all set in working an immigration deal with the US that would allow him to send more people over. The deal didn't work out but the government still encouraged, or at least didn't hinder, illegal immigration.

That's an absolutely irresponsible and stupid policy, actually it can't even be called a policy.

Thanks to the pressure from leftist groups it seems that Calderon will put some more interest in programs to get people out of poverty without having to jump borders. Let's hope that is so, as a Mexican I find it truly insulting that a country like Mexico kicks its people out under the pretext of poverty.

yes, it was the umping on stages with banners that allowed the nazis to take power. it's so obvious!

So now you're saying that facists didn't use these tactics to stifle debate?



if you have a group spouting rhetoric that comes directly from fascist groups, which deeply appeals to members of other fascist groups such that they were the early adopters and promoters of said group, whose leaders have ties to other fascist groups, and whose plan of action was lifted wholesale from the essentially identical actions of other fascist groups over the past few decades, there can be only one logical conclusion. it is inescapable if you are at all intellectually honest.

Note: repeating yourself doesn't make your arguement any stronger. By your arguement, the actions of the protests justified beating them.



popularity can't save it from its pedigree and implications.

and an unjust law is no law at all - in fact it is your civic duty to break unjust laws. to quote something from a couple posts back,

And the poster of that still hasn't been able to show how the law is unjust and refused to answer my comment on the subjectivity of the word.

The U.S. has the most billionaires in the world. What country comes in second? Germany? Japan? The UK?

No - Mexico has the second most billionaires in the world.

Yes, they are not the third world country many seem to think they are. Many of their citizens live in third world conditions, but they are not a third world country. I would think that the more liberal or socialist crowd who claim to care about the human rights of the mexican migrants would direct at least some of their energy towards the corruption in Mexico. But ofcourse not, it is always alot easier to blame America.

I believe there should be immigration reform and I support a guest worker program, but not until after the borders have been secured and not if the focus is only on Mexico. There are plenty of Central and South American countries such as Guatemala who actually are stuck in the third world and whose people have as much need as any Mexican to work in America. Mexico needs to start taking responsibility for their own instead of depriving them of basic human rights and literally dumping them into the U.S.

Mexico is also very strict when it comes to their own immigration policy and watch their southern borders like a predatorial hawk to keep out illegal immigrants from the rest of Latin America. Such dupilicity.

I do not wish to see a socialist revolution in Mexico, but there does not to be civil and economic reform. The Mexican Government claims to be concerned about the human rights of their citizens in America...well what about within their own borders? Mexico also needs to drop this whole "the borders crossed us, we didn't cross them" campaign. They signed the treaty of Guadalupe, they lost the Mexican American war and in consequence they lost that land. Accept it. Hopefully the newly elected Mexican president will be a true leader and not a self serving hack like Vincente Fox.

And as I said before, there plenty of other deserving people from Latin America as well Africa, East Europe and Asia who could use work in America to benefit their families and who can be true patriots.

Free Soviets, I just want to ask you something:

IF the "minuteman" founder was actually physically assaulted--as in, they got on the stage and beat him--you wouldn't support the beating, would you?

depends on the beating, probably

Yes, they are not the third world country many seem to think they are. Many of their citizens live in third world conditions, but they are not a third world country. I would think that the more liberal or socialist crowd who claim to care about the human rights of the mexican migrants would direct at least some of their energy towards the corruption in Mexico. But ofcourse not, it is always alot easier to blame America.

I believe there should be immigration reform and I support a guest worker program, but not until after the borders have been secured and not if the focus is only on Mexico. There are plenty of Central and South American countries such as Guatemala who actually are stuck in the third world and whose people have as much need as any Mexican to work in America. Mexico needs to start taking responsibility for their own instead of depriving them of basic human rights and literally dumping them into the U.S.

Mexico is also very strict when it comes to their own immigration policy and watch their southern borders like a predatorial hawk to keep out illegal immigrants from the rest of Latin America. Such dupilicity.

I do not wish to see a socialist revolution in Mexico, but there does not to be civil and economic reform. The Mexican Government claims to be concerned about the human rights of their citizens in America...well what about within their own borders? Mexico also needs to drop this whole "the borders crossed us, we didn't cross them" campaign. They signed the treaty of Guadalupe, they lost the Mexican American war and in consequence they lost that land. Accept it. Hopefully the newly elected Mexican president will be a true leader and not a self serving hack like Vincente Fox.

And as I said before, there plenty of other deserving people from Latin America as well Africa, East Europe and Asia who could use work in America to benefit their families and who can be true patriots.

Can't find anything in there I disagree with, although it may be a little impracticle to have the same labor agreements with Africa and Asia as we do with our neighbors. There is also precedent - we have free trade agreements with Mexico. As far as I'm concerned we should open foreign employment offices throughout Latin America and allow people who wish to work in teh US to apply at them. That way we know who they are, we can do medical and background checks and we can even contract out to private companies to run them so they don't cost tax dollars.

depends on the beating, probably

A physical one. Such as, punching, kicking, etc, that kind.

Let's pretend he lived from it.

My view: Why should America have to be the one feeding non-American Mexicans? If Mexico wasn't so corrupt, I doubt you'd see so much illegal immigration.

Mexico's corruption is hurting Mexicans. As a result, many are forced to either illegally cross into America or starve. As a result, American companies would rather hire them for $1/hr or $2/hr(because they know the illegals wouldn't want to risk being sent back) rather than, you know, hire American citizens and LEGAL immigrants and have to, by law, pay them minimum wage.

The illegals were hurt by Mexico's corruption problem. americans and legal immigrants are hurt by the illegals' desperation. Meanwhile, the companies(and possibly Mexico) are having the time of their lives.

We fix Mexico's problem and the problem lessens alot. Securing the border also helps at least half of the problem(the American and legal immigrant half), which is why so many people want a stronger border.

depends on the beating, probably

You're not going to deny that beating people to supress their views is fascist, are you? You and the illegal immigrant crowd are teh only fascists here.

yes, it was the jumping on stages with banners that allowed the nazis to take power. it's so obvious!


Unfortunately, it was EXACTLY that kind of tactic that made the Nazis a viable political party, then the largest party, then the ruling party - and then, of course, the only party.


if you have a group spouting rhetoric that comes directly from fascist groups, which deeply appeals to members of other fascist groups such that they were the early adopters and promoters of said group, whose leaders have ties to other fascist groups, and whose plan of action was lifted wholesale from the essentially identical actions of other fascist groups over the past few decades, there can be only one logical conclusion. it is inescapable if you are at all intellectually honest.


"Inescapable" only if you make a whole lot of assumptions and connections that frankly don't stand up to scrutiny. The Minutemen have some support from other right-wing groups, yes - but I've seen not a one that deserves the term "fascist".


popularity can't save it from its pedigree and implications.


Popularity is the sole arbiter of whether an idea is mainstream or fringe. The Minutemen's sole purpose is to reduce illegal immigration - a decidedly mainstream concept. And one which, despite yours and many other's intellectual DIShonesty in the labelling, is neither fascist nor racist.


and an unjust law is no law at all - in fact it is your civic duty to break unjust laws. to quote something from a couple posts back,

Unjust? By who's standards? Not mine, to be sure. Immigration law is fair, just and equitable - if you enter the United States by illegal means, then you are a criminal, and have no right to remain.
It may surprise you, but I do have sympathy for those who wish to improve their lot. But I cannot help but compare their situation to that of my father. He scrimped and saved, made his way through the bureaucratic maze, was accepted, and made a life for himself and his family - as a legal immigrant, and, eventually, an American citizen. Let those who come here do as he did. It doesn't take much to apply, it doesn't take much to do the right thing. If these people cross the border illegally, then I don't care if they're White, Black, Brown, Red, Yellow or purple, they are CRIMINALS, and we do not need anyone here who will so flagrantly defy our laws and our government.
To me, the Minutemen are responsible citizens properly doing their duty.

I note, you have no answer to my charge as to who is your true political master...

I don't care if you like or don't like this guy's politics, position or attitude. The Columbia students responsible for this are clearly a bunch of thugs who want to eliminate a dissenting voice.

Oh this is nothing.

Wait till the International Socialists take away our guns.

Note: repeating yourself doesn't make your arguement any stronger.

i figure that this shit is common knowledge by now. it isn't hard to find - david neiwert is as good a place as any to start (http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/01/march-of-minutemen.html)

the early adopters and promoters of the mm project included the lovely folks over at stormfront and similar places. the reconquista paranoia and most other aspects of what mm project leaders start ranting about at the drop of a hat are lifted directly from a selection of the countries finest hate groups (though without attribution - people might feel ooky otherwise). unsurprisingly, those fine folks made up the core of early supporters, because they understood this for what it was - their in road to the mainstream, fascism wearing a cheap suit and with better pr people.

specifically, this 'border patrol' was different in that they kept the obvious markers to a minimum and specifically told participants to keep the confederate and nazi flags folded up in the truck rather than flying openly. this was not your daddy's klan border watch of 1977, and certainly not your aryan nations border militias of the 80s.

are we to believe that all of these border militias except this one were the work of nazis and klansmen, and this one just happened to hit on the same exact idea, spoke in the same language (if slightly more coded sometimes), and promoted the exact same crazed conspiracies? we're to make nothing of the fact that they consistently identify themselves with the militia/patriot movement? their leadership's participation in earlier fascist activities is just a bit of interesting historical character? their ties to and promotion of hate groups is just some sort of mistake?

i figure that this shit is common knowledge by now. it isn't hard to find - david neiwert is as good a place as any to start (http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/01/march-of-minutemen.html)

the early adopters and promoters of the mm project included the lovely folks over at stormfront and similar places. the reconquista paranoia and most other aspects of what mm project leaders start ranting about at the drop of a hat are lifted directly from a selection of the countries finest hate groups (though without attribution - people might feel ooky otherwise). unsurprisingly, those fine folks made up the core of early supporters, because they understood this for what it was - their in road to the mainstream, fascism wearing a cheap suit and with better pr people.

specifically, this 'border patrol' was different in that they kept the obvious markers to a minimum and specifically told participants to keep the confederate and nazi flags folded up in the truck rather than flying openly. this was not your daddy's klan border watch of 1977, and certainly not your aryan nations border militias of the 80s.

are we to believe that all of these border militias except this one were the work of nazis and klansmen, and this one just happened to hit on the same exact idea, spoke in the same language (if slightly more coded sometimes), and promoted the exact same crazed conspiracies? we're to make nothing of the fact that they consistently identify themselves with the militia/patriot movement? their leadership's participation in earlier fascist activities is just a bit of interesting historical character? their ties to and promotion of hate groups is just some sort of mistake?

David Neiwert is a lier with an agenda. No better than the fascists he supports - the pro illegal immigration movement - he lies, uses labels and obfuscates legitimate debate for the sake of political expediancy. There is not one thing in his blog that I give one ounce of creedence to.

Wait till the International Socialists take away our guns.

We don't need yours, we have our own.

are we to believe that all of these border militias except this one were the work of nazis and klansmen, and this one just happened to hit on the same exact idea, spoke in the same language (if slightly more coded sometimes), and promoted the exact same crazed conspiracies? we're to make nothing of the fact that they consistently identify themselves with the militia/patriot movement? their leadership's participation in earlier fascist activities is just a bit of interesting historical character? their ties to and promotion of hate groups is just some sort of mistake?

The problem is, FS, that even if everything you propose is true, and I do not accept that that is the case, the Minutemen themselves have been seriously more reasonable, and quite peaceable. Yes this could actually be an example of the far right mellowing out and getting mainstream. To me, that can't be a bad thing.
The leadership of the MM has links to unsavoury groups? Good reason to keep an eye on them. But I judge a group by it's words and it's deeds, and all these people are doing - is helping to enforce the law. Where's the bad?

The problem is, FS, that even if everything you propose is true, and I do not accept that that is the case, the Minutemen themselves have been seriously more reasonable, and quite peaceable. Yes this could actually be an example of the far right mellowing out and getting mainstream. To me, that can't be a bad thing.
The leadership of the MM has links to unsavoury groups? Good reason to keep an eye on them. But I judge a group by it's words and it's deeds, and all these people are doing - is helping to enforce the law. Where's the bad?

Not to mention the fact that the pro illegal immigrant movement has connections to all kinds of unsavory, racis groups like Reconquista, La Mecha and others.

i figure that this shit is common knowledge by now. it isn't hard to find - *snip links to nonsense*

You've posted this before and I trashed it before. Lots of assumptions, vague "connections", and suggestions. Posting it again doesn't change that. You still can't dispute the fact that the "protestors" are the ones acting like fascists and not the MM.

My view: Why should America have to be the one feeding non-American Mexicans? If Mexico wasn't so corrupt, I doubt you'd see so much illegal immigration.

You are entirely correct in this.

Mexico's corruption is hurting Mexicans. As a result, many are forced to either illegally cross into America or starve. As a result, American companies would rather hire them for $1/hr or $2/hr(because they know the illegals wouldn't want to risk being sent back) rather than, you know, hire American citizens and LEGAL immigrants and have to, by law, pay them minimum wage.

I agree with this as well.

The illegals were hurt by Mexico's corruption problem. americans and legal immigrants are hurt by the illegals' desperation. Meanwhile, the companies(and possibly Mexico) are having the time of their lives.

The only thing I would change is to say (and definitely Mexico).

We fix Mexico's problem and the problem lessens alot. Securing the border also helps at least half of the problem(the American and legal immigrant half), which is why so many people want a stronger border.

Here's where we part company. The USA has no right to intrude on Mexican sovereignty unless it is warranted by self-defense. It is up to the Mexican people to resolve their internal problems.

Securing the border helps some US citizens and most legal immigrants. However, the patriotic fervor whipped up by groups such as the Minutemen may incite people to violence against legal Mexican immigrants and US citizens who look like Mexicans. There is also the fact that the economy of the US southwest is based on the idea that this cheap labour force exists. Stopping the movement of that labour force would damage your economy. How does that help the legal folk?

You've posted this before and I trashed it before. Lots of assumptions, vague "connections", and suggestions. Posting it again doesn't change that. You still can't dispute the fact that the "protestors" are the ones acting like fascists and not the MM.

Sucks that the protestors turned out looking like the bad guys. I guess it shows how far you have to go to look worse than a MinuteMan... you have to bust their leader's reading glasses on National TV.

Sucks that the protestors turned out looking like the bad guys. I guess it shows how far you have to go to look worse than a MinuteMan... you have to bust their leader's reading glasses on National TV.

Not just looking like the bad guys, DM. This time, at least, they really were.

Kecibukia, were I to attempt to insult you, rest assured - there'd be little to no room for interpretation on that score. Why are you uptight about using violence against fascists, anyway? They make damn good targets of themselves. I say let 'em have it.

Like I've already said, they had their day in the Sun (in the first half of the 20th Century), and they really don't deserve another kick at the can. Do you feel otherwise?

Not just looking like the bad guys, DM. This time, at least, they really were.

OK... OK.

But when do the MinuteMen go back to being the bad guys. I won't feel like all is right with the world if it isn't soon.

I think this was one of those cases where there are no good guys.

The argument for silencing the debate rests on two points:

1. The Minutemen are a fascist movement.

2. Fascist movements should be censored.

I am not sure either of these are true.

OK... OK.

But when do the MinuteMen go back to being the bad guys. I won't feel like all is right with the world if it isn't soon.

Don't worry. I've no doubt they'll spout some sort of nonsense you can take umbrage at soon.:p

Kecibukia, were I to attempt to insult you, rest assured - there'd be little to no room for interpretation on that score. Why are you uptight about using violence against fascists, anyway? They make damn good targets of themselves. I say let 'em have it.
Like I've already said, they had their day in the Sun (in the first half of the 20th Century), and they really don't deserve another kick at the can. Do you feel otherwise?

That's nice Dobbs. Like it's already been shown, the only ones acting like your repeated fascist meme are the protestors. SO by your logic, I should feel free to "kick them in the can".

Whats a minuteman without a rifle ...what good was he anyway...getting beat on by kids ??

What a waste....cant find good help anymore ...no wonder the borders are so screwed up .:p

I think this was one of those cases where there are no good guys.

The argument for silencing the debate rests on two points:

1. The Minutemen are a fascist movement.

2. Fascist movements should be censored.

I am not sure either of these are true.

In a free society, point two is indefensible. Everyone has the right to make their point, especially if you don't agree with it.

Don't worry. I've no doubt they'll spout some sort of nonsense you can take umbrage at soon.:p

Good. Because this is difficult to wrap my mind around.

Kecibukia, were I to attempt to insult you, rest assured - there'd be little to no room for interpretation on that score. Why are you uptight about using violence against fascists, anyway? They make damn good targets of themselves. I say let 'em have it.

Like I've already said, they had their day in the Sun (in the first half of the 20th Century), and they really don't deserve another kick at the can. Do you feel otherwise?

I for one do not. That's why I would hope that these pro illegal immigrant fascists are exposed repeatedly for what they are. I'm glad they so readily and often resort to lies and violence as their sole means of gettin their views across. It exposes these fascists for exacly what they are - enemies of free speech and racist ideologues.

This annoys the snerx out of me. http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/10/05/at-columbia-students-attack-minuteman-founder/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nysun.com%2Farticle%2F41020&frame=true

To be brief: he founder of the Minutemen, a volunteer group that monitors the border between the US and Mexico, was attacked by students after being invited to speak at Columbia University.

I don't care if you like or don't like this guy's politics, position or attitude. The Columbia students responsible for this are clearly a bunch of thugs who want to eliminate a dissenting voice.

The students are nice compared to the coyotes and drug runners if and when they decide he's pissing in their cornflakes long enough.

if it operates like a fascist, talks like a fascist, appeals deeply to known fascists, hangs out with known fascists, and has a historical connection to other fascists, it's probably not a cheeseburger
Seriously what Facist ideas? All I've seen from them is at most Militaristic and racist. That is not a facist exclusive ideal.

And I suppose everyone in Italy are still facists by the last 2 points.


i heard a rumor that people who don't speak english are not necessarily stupid or even bad at school. i thought it was crazy at the time too, but i looked it up, and it turns out to be true. so maybe there is some issue with the way the schools in your area are funded and run, no?
So you're saying that they should fork over Tons of money just to teach them in Spanish, where they hell would they get the money, especially since their parents don't pay taxes.

If the students had organized a peaceful protest - even if they had used unkind words on their signs and in their slogans - that would have been OK.

What they did instead is NOT OK. They restricted the guy from stating his opinion in a public forum.

For the record, as far as I know, the Minutemen are NOT vigilantes - they do not arrest illegal immigrants. They act as additional eyes and ears - not hands - on the border. They see illegals, they call the border patrol. I see nothing racist in this - if we had a problem with Canadian immigrants, there would probably be Minutemen on the Canadian border. Do a lot of these guys support restricting immigration? Probably. If they didn't, they wouldn't want to help the Border Patrol.

I should point out that there are a number of different minuteman groups. The Arizona one (that I know of) acts more like an extension of the Border Patrol, something the BP desperatly needs. They hold illigal migrants and deliver them to the border patrol. The first migrant they caught was half dead already, apparently he ran out of water at some point in the desert and was about to die.
Yes, the Texas one (IE: The one that people build their stereotype off of) is composed of stereotypical hics, out thar on th' border wif' dere shotty-guns waitin' fer dem immy-gints.

To conclude, Arizona > Texas ;)

How awful!

What a pity he wasn't more vigilant, he might have seen them coming at him if he was.

This annoys the snerx out of me. http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/10/05/at-columbia-students-attack-minuteman-founder/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nysun.com%2Farticle%2F41020&frame=true

To be brief: he founder of the Minutemen, a volunteer group that monitors the border between the US and Mexico, was attacked by students after being invited to speak at Columbia University.

I don't care if you like or don't like this guy's politics, position or attitude. The Columbia students responsible for this are clearly a bunch of thugs who want to eliminate a dissenting voice.

Is it just me, or does nothing in that article describe an attack, despite the headline claiming otherwise.

It sounds like they just ran up on stage to make a lot of noise. After all, if there were a lot of students who stormed the stage intent on causing harm, would the phrase "unharmed" be used in the positive?

I've heard quite a few occaisions when liberals like Janeanne Garofalo or that chick from the Pretenders started making anti-war speeches and College Republicans stormed the stage. This is no different, except that it's taking longer for liberals to get angry with more justification.

Is it just me, or does nothing in that article describe an attack, despite the headline claiming otherwise.

nothing in video of the event either.

http://ctv.osa.columbia.edu/ctvnews/2006/10/web-update-minutemen-protest.html

Can't find anything in there I disagree with, although it may be a little impracticle to have the same labor agreements with Africa and Asia as we do with our neighbors. There is also precedent - we have free trade agreements with Mexico. As far as I'm concerned we should open foreign employment offices throughout Latin America and allow people who wish to work in teh US to apply at them. That way we know who they are, we can do medical and background checks and we can even contract out to private companies to run them so they don't cost tax dollars.

Excellent idea not-so-psychotic Dan. Employment offices throughout Latin America would not only benefit the American economy and labor force, but Americas image in the region as well. Eventually those who take advantage of the offer could possibly work and run these offices themselves in the future. This would certainly put CAFTA in a favorable light to many in the region and give Hugo Chavez a stroke.

plus, in all of these offices, I think a quick little message about how service in the American Military can be a fast track to the ultimate prize...American Citizenship. Alot of our respected men and women in the military are not citizens but serve with honor and dignity.

I like your thinking on this issue.

nothing in video of the event either.

http://ctv.osa.columbia.edu/ctvnews/2006/10/web-update-minutemen-protest.html

My goodness. An article about liberals, written by conservatives, that lied. *gasp* Having... Trouble... Typing... Cognative Dissonance... Crippling.

Dammit. Now I've gone and spilled sarcasm on my keyboard.

nothing in video of the event either.

http://ctv.osa.columbia.edu/ctvnews/2006/10/web-update-minutemen-protest.html

Yeah right before the camera pans to the sign on stage you can see students jumping up to attack Gilchriest. Sorry the camera man was so lame. Thankfully there were so many winesses. That guy at teh end of the video is very astute. The pro illegal alian fascists were indeed acting like animals. Hopefully as they get older they'll learn that using violence to stifle dissenting viewpoints is not an appropriate response in a civil society.

You've posted this before and I trashed it before.

David Neiwert is a lier with an agenda.

ah yes, i remember this game with you two before. now, what was in your brilliant rejoinders to it again? oh right, this:

I do not trust him at all. I have seen "journalists" lie plenty and this guy has an extremely obvious bias.

You've got to be kidding. The majority of that comes from the SPLC along with lots of "charges, allegations, and accusations" trying to link the Minutemen to various groups. The news reports have lots of nonsourced numbers and "quotes".

how dare he be a journalist? and what's with all the citing of news reports as sources?

absolutely devastating attacks guys. well played, well played.

Yeah right before the camera pans to the sign on stage you can see students jumping up to attack Gilchriest. Sorry the camera man was so lame. Thankfully there were so many winesses. That guy at teh end of the video is very astute. The pro illegal alian fascists were indeed acting like animals. Hopefully as they get older they'll learn that using violence to stifle dissenting viewpoints is not an appropriate response in a civil society.

The camera panned back. There was no attack. They were just making a scene.

One can't claim, like so many conservatives do, that the exculpatory or incriminating (which ever you're looking for) evidence happens off camera. I could point a camera at a daisy and say that it clearly depicts George Dubya raping a puppy, I just panned away from that bit before I turned the camera on.

My goodness. An article about liberals, written by conservatives, that lied. *gasp* Having... Trouble... Typing... Cognative Dissonance... Crippling.

i'm sure it was just a one time thing, a mistake of some sort. lord knows that conservatives never lie on purpose. and certainly not habitually.

ah yes, i remember this game with you two before. now, what was in your brilliant rejoinders to it again? oh right, this:


how dare he be a journalist? and what's with all the citing of news reports as sources?

absolutely devastating attacks guys. well played, well played.

Right FS. Whatever you say. You've linked to that so many times and had it smacked down so many times it's pathetic. There's not one bit of hard evidence in the whole thing. Lot's of suggestions, allegations, innuendo's, etc.

The whole thing still means little when the fact of the matter is that he and the MM are not the ones vandalizing, attacking, censoring, etc. their opponents.

Keep up the dodging. It's funny.

ah yes, i remember this game with you two before. now, what was in your brilliant rejoinders to it again? oh right, this:





how dare he be a journalist? and what's with all the citing of news reports as sources?

absolutely devastating attacks guys. well played, well played.

I have no problem with the profession - in fact before I ended up getting my degree in film I was a journalism major and actually was editor-in-chief of my campus paper and subsequently spent a year and a half as a jr. reporter for the LA Times. This guy, however is just a very bad journalist. He starts with a viewpoint and then goes out to prove it. I noticed not one single quote that he got from any interview he did with anyone from the Minutemen. The articles he cited were similarily sourced. One article used a pro illegal alien group as the sole source for their whole story on the minutemen. It never occured to the writer to call the Minutemen and get a response? Talk to law enforcement? Do a search of criminal records? No, of course not. Just go to a group with an opposing viewpoint and print everything they say without question or opposition.

It's a bad source. It's every bit as bad as going to CNS for news. Not even Fox news, but CNS. I mean it's REALLY biased, bad and full of unfounded, unresearched bullshit accusations.

The camera panned back. There was no attack. They were just making a scene.

though an older looking man in a hat clearly tried to forcefully take their banner away and threw something at the protestors (it looks like it hit a girl in the head) at about the 45 second mark in the clip.

i'm sure it was just a one time thing, a mistake of some sort. lord knows that conservatives never lie on purpose. and certainly not habitually.

Ah, yes, the traditional red herrings to distract from the fact that it wasn't the MM committing fascist actions.

Dance to my tune little bunny.

The camera panned back. There was no attack. They were just making a scene.

One can't claim, like so many conservatives do, that the exculpatory or incriminating (which ever you're looking for) evidence happens off camera. I could point a camera at a daisy and say that it clearly depicts George Dubya raping a puppy, I just panned away from that bit before I turned the camera on.

So the witnesses were lying? There was also no type of censorship going on? No vandalization of property?

The camera panned back. There was no attack. They were just making a scene.

One can't claim, like so many conservatives do, that the exculpatory or incriminating (which ever you're looking for) evidence happens off camera. I could point a camera at a daisy and say that it clearly depicts George Dubya raping a puppy, I just panned away from that bit before I turned the camera on.

Nobody said they beat him up or actually assaulted him. All that I heard happened was exectly what the video shows. They jumped on stage, threw chairs, knocked over the podium and basically acted like a bunch of Fascists who don't like when people express opposing viewpoints. That's what I heard happened on teh radio, that's what I read in the story and that's what I saw on the video. SF did, however, say that he would support people beating the guy up.

...

so, any luck finding a source to back up your original claim about the protestors calling somebody a "******" yet?

so, any luck finding a source to back up your original claim about the protestors calling somebody a "******" yet? or do you just like being wrong and not admitting it?

Nope, haven't found it. I read it earlier. You can keep calling me a liar all you want. From someone who endorses violence and censorship to opposing political speech, that doesn't bother me.

Any luck defending that?

Edit:

Found it:



Campus protesters quash Minuteman speech
Storm stage in near riot, forcing security to whisk away founder Gilchrist


Minuteman Project founder Jim Gilchrist was attacked by angry, violent protesters last night who stormed the stage during his speech at Columbia University in New York City, forcing an abrupt end to the event.

An African-American member of the Minuteman board who spoke prior to Gilchrist was taunted with the "n-word," according to WND columnist Jerome Corsi.

Corsi had been scheduled to follow Gilchrist with a speech of his own, but after university security personnel whisked the Minuteman leader offstage, the New York Young Republican Club meeting was shut down.

A video of the chaos at Roone Arledge Auditorium, shot by Columbia University Television, can be seen here.

So the witnesses were lying? Of course they were. You can't find one reliable eyewitness in USA anymore. Everybody is willing to sell, and paint, their story the way it sells the best. It's amazing to me they still approve eyewitness fairytales in court (well, not so much, because the lawyers will convince you you are lying). If you don't have a tape or film of it, it didn't happen.

And sadly, I'm not being sarcastic.

From someone who endorses violence and censorship to opposing political speech, that doesn't bother me.

tain't censorship to shout down morons. look it up.

as for violence, i do not approve of it's use in order to 'oppose political speech'. i approve of its use for self-defense and defense of others.

Found it:
...
An African-American member of the Minuteman board who spoke prior to Gilchrist was taunted with the "n-word," according to WND columnist Jerome Corsi.

wingnutdaily! wingnut-fucking-daily is your source! and not just wnd, but jerome corsi, no less?! oh god, that's awesome.

tain't censorship to shout down morons. look it up.

as for violence, i do not approve of it's use in order to 'oppose political speech'. i approve of its use for self-defense and defense of others.

Yes you do. That's exactly what you do. Dress it up however yo want, you approve of using force and violence against people who disagree with your political views. The barometer you just used for when it's okay can be applied to any political discourse there is. The war in Iraq, "It's okay to beat up people in favor of the war because we are defending Iraqis." Abortion, "It's okay to beat up abortionists because they kill babies," or, "It's okay to beat up anti-abortionists because we are defending women's rights to control their bodies. Gay marriage, "It's okay to beat up people who oppose gay marriage because they are a bunch of gay hating nazis." There's no end to how you can apply that logic.

There's not one single shred of evidence that any minuteman has ever harmed an illegal immigrant or acted violently in any way at all. It's just you pro illegal immigrant fascists who resort to that.

YOU are a fascist by every definition of the word. It is YOU who has modeled your political methods after the nazis and the Blackshirts. It is YOU who is the enemy of free speach and civil society and it is YOU and people like YOU that society needs to guard against if our rights are to protected and if we are going to continue to live in a free society. If you get your way and you are able to stifle free and open poliotical debate with violence and intimidation then a great battle to defend our freedom has been lost.

Yes you do. That's exactly what you do. Dress it up however yo want, you approve of using force and violence against people who disagree with your political views. The barometer you just used for when it's okay can be applied to any political discourse there is. The war in Iraq, "It's okay to beat up people in favor of the war because we are defending Iraqis." Abortion, "It's okay to beat up abortionists because they kill babies," or, "It's okay to beat up anti-abortionists because we are defending women's rights to control their bodies. Gay marriage, "It's okay to beat up people who oppose gay marriage because they are a bunch of gay hating nazis." There's no end to how you can apply that logic.

There's not one single shred of evidence that any minuteman has ever harmed an illegal immigrant or acted violently in any way at all. It's just you pro illegal immigrant fascists who resort to that.

YOU are a fascist by every definition of the word. It is YOU who has modeled your political methods after the nazis and the Blackshirts. It is YOU who is the enemy of free speach and civil society and it is YOU and people like YOU that society needs to guard against if our rights are to protected and if we are going to continue to live in a free society. If you get your way and you are able to stifle free and open poliotical debate with violence and intimidation then a great battle to defend our freedom has been lost.

You dont really sound that Phycotic . In fact you actually make a bit of sense .

part the first, no
part the second, nothing wrong with bashing fascists
part the third, what the fuck are you on about?

Word of advice: Don't call people who disagree with you "fascists." It only makes you look like a moron.

You dont really sound that Phycotic . In fact you actually make a bit of sense .

It's 'cause I'm not drunk yet. :)

Word of advice: Don't call people who disagree with you "fascists." It only makes you look like a moron.

its not disagreement that makes them fascist

i do not use the word as a general term of abuse - i use it only where i have solid historical, ideological, or associative reasons for doing so. people that talk like the aryan nations and kkk while engaging in a project invented by the aryan nations and kkk with a core of supporters from the aryan nations and kkk are an outgrowth of the aryan nations and kkk


http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/Minutemen%20rally-793875.jpg
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/Minutemen%20rally%202-706494.jpg
some shots from a minutemen rally last year.

count the number of people in the nazi saluting group shot.
now go find some verified accounts of the number of people the minutemen were actually able to get to show up to any of their shit. the confirmed numbers were always less than 100 for actual patrols and up to 400 for a rally or two (though there were some wild claims of tens of thousands, which never seemed to be gathered together at all). their little trip to california's border in october of last year had some 26 'volunteers' show up.

people who would openly identify as nazis make up a huge percentage of their core support. a good chunk of the rest merely wouldn't do so openly.

*snip*

Point taken. I concede defeat.

its not disagreement that makes them fascist

i do not use the word as a general term of abuse - i use it only where i have solid historical, ideological, or associative reasons for doing so. people that talk like the aryan nations and kkk while engaging in a project invented by the aryan nations and kkk with a core of supporters from the aryan nations and kkk are an outgrowth of the aryan nations and kkkNo you don't. You lie. Right below is proof.


http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/Minutemen%20rally-793875.jpg
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/Minutemen%20rally%202-706494.jpg
some shots from a minutemen rally last year.

count the number of people in the nazi saluting group shot.
now go find some verified accounts of the number of people the minutemen were actually able to get to show up to any of their shit. the confirmed numbers were always less than 100 for actual patrols and up to 400 for a rally or two (though there were some wild claims of tens of thousands, which never seemed to be gathered together at all). their little trip to california's border in october of last year had some 26 'volunteers' show up.

people who would openly identify as nazis make up a huge percentage of their core support. a good chunk of the rest merely wouldn't do so openly.

That's not a minuteman rally. That's some pictures of a Nazi rally that someone says is a Minuteman rally. Typical of the tactics of teh fascist pro illegal immigrant movement. Can't win with honest debate so you lie, threaten and get violent. I've seen plenty of coverage of dozens of Minutman rally's and I've never seen anything like that. They simply wuldn't allow those people at their rallies.

Point taken. I concede defeat.

Why? He's full of shit. It's just another Gestapo tactic. Here are real pics of Minuteman rallys.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/POLITICS/05/12/bush.immigration/story.dc.protest.afp.gi.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/bdaz01/DSC016322.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/bdaz01/DSC016372.jpg

Now are you going to tell me that the people in those photos are going to go to a rally wirth these people?

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/Minutemen%20rally-793875.jpg

If you believe that then how'd you like to discuss some real estate deals?

Look, here's how the Minutemen express their views:

http://www.ocregister.com/newsimages/news/2006/05/07minute1_md.jpg
http://www.balance.org/images/minuteman.jpg

Here's how the Fascist pro illegal alien movement responds:

http://www.usbordersecurity.org/news_images/060326Indiana%20Goons%20attack.jpg

It's very clear who the Fascists enemies of Free Speech are.

This annoys the snerx out of me. http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/10/05/at-columbia-students-attack-minuteman-founder/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nysun.com%2Farticle%2F41020&frame=true

To be brief: he founder of the Minutemen, a volunteer group that monitors the border between the US and Mexico, was attacked by students after being invited to speak at Columbia University.

I don't care if you like or don't like this guy's politics, position or attitude. The Columbia students responsible for this are clearly a bunch of thugs who want to eliminate a dissenting voice.

I am a conservative.
I say thank God for activist Liberal students who put the boot to this racist scumbag. It is pleasing to know that the ideology gap is not so grt after all and that opression can be just a disgusting to those whom I normally disagree with.
Though I am certain this douche went and beat up some mexican woman who dared to strive for the American Dream.

Lets be clear about a couple of things before I go.
No Islamic terrorists have been proven to have crept across the Mexican border--just because a bunch of slackjawed lily white yocals cant tell the difference between an Arab and a Mexican doesnt mean the Mexicans cant.

This country survives on the labor they provide--there has only been one period in history when it did not--the great depression.

The drugs that come over the Mexican border are typically Mexican or Colombian(see: South America) this is marked as important because the Heroine that is being smuggled into this country from the South does not buy rocket launchers and AKs for the Taliban who are proving themselves to be quite formidable---note as well the world agreed that we should go into Afghan.

The Heroine that is smuggled over the Canadian border(the largest and most pourous border in the world) is typically of Asian origin(see: Afghan poppies)
This nacro-trade places money directly in the hands of people who are killing our boys and girls in Afghanistan.

Why did this douche bag racist decide that the threat was coming from Mexicans seeking work(brown people) rather then the pourous border to the north(Canada--White People--this is a generalization most Americans subscribe to)? Because his interest in not in the security and growth of this great nation but his motivation is in a fear and hatred of brown people.

So goose step your pity for this bastard on down the line because he got a small taste of what he deserves.

I am a conservative.
I say thank God for activist Liberal students who put the boot to this racist scumbag. It is pleasing to know that the ideology gap is not so grt after all and that opression can be just a disgusting to those whom I normally disagree with.
Though I am certain this douche went and beat up some mexican woman who dared to strive for the American Dream.

Lets be clear about a couple of things before I go.
No Islamic terrorists have been proven to have crept across the Mexican border--just because a bunch of slackjawed lily white yocals cant tell the difference between an Arab and a Mexican doesnt mean the Mexicans cant.

This country survives on the labor they provide--there has only been one period in history when it did not--the great depression.

The drugs that come over the Mexican border are typically Mexican or Colombian(see: South America) this is marked as important because the Heroine that is being smuggled into this country from the South does not buy rocket launchers and AKs for the Taliban who are proving themselves to be quite formidable---note as well the world agreed that we should go into Afghan.

The Heroine that is smuggled over the Canadian border(the largest and most pourous border in the world) is typically of Asian origin(see: Afghan poppies)
This nacro-trade places money directly in the hands of people who are killing our boys and girls in Afghanistan.

Why did this douche bag racist decide that the threat was coming from Mexicans seeking work(brown people) rather then the pourous border to the north(Canada--White People--this is a generalization most Americans subscribe to)? Because his interest in not in the security and growth of this great nation but his motivation is in a fear and hatred of brown people.

So goose step your pity for this bastard on down the line because he got a small taste of what he deserves.

Great. Another Fascist.

I think I might have to be phsycotic for a while .

So a man forms a group which uses legal means to watch for and report illegal activities to the proper authorities. Those who support the illegal activities physically attack the guy. It seems pretty cut and dried who is in the right and who is in the wrong.

*snip*

Illegal immigrants don't enter through Canada on anywhere near as great a scale as they do through Mexico. And equating anti-illegal immigration with border control is laughable at best. By that "logic," I guess Mexicans who immigrated here legally and oppose illegal immigration are "racist," too? :rolleyes:

Missed this post before so for the sake of being complete:

what, did they burn them down?No. They overwhelmed them and are not insured and don't pay their bills. These hospitals are going bankrupt as a result.



of course, anyone arrested without papers isn't exactly going to get out on bail. basically that situation is a feature of the system combined with the effects of the drug war. since both the system and the drug war are unjust and ought be abolished, the problem is only real so long as we keep propping up an unjust state of affairs.They don't arrest people for being illegal. It's called "Special Order 40." They aren't even allowed to ask immigration status in a routine stop. These people are in for the same kinds of crimes as the citizens are, robbery, theft, rape, murder...



i heard a rumor that people who don't speak english are not necessarily stupid or even bad at school. i thought it was crazy at the time too, but i looked it up, and it turns out to be true. so maybe there is some issue with the way the schools in your area are funded and run, no?
What the fuck does that have to do with the fact that our classrooms are severely overcrowded and that much of that overcrowding is due to illegal immigrants? Also, it seems it would be much easier to teach a class if everyone spoke the same language.

Ummm are we not supposed to shoot fascist ? Kind of hard to do if everybody is a fascist ...be running out of ammo and beer .

The word is losing its value. Its like everyone is some form of fascist for something.

Cant we stick to the genocidal maniac version ? It will save ammo .

Ummm are we not supposed to shoot fascist ? Kind of hard to do if everybody is a fascist ...be running out of ammo and beer .

The word is losing its value. Its like everyone is some form of fascist for something.

Cant we stick to the genocidal maniac version ? It will save ammo .

This post clearly shows who the Fascists are.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11773667&postcount=149

Ummm are we not supposed to shoot fascist ? Kind of hard to do if everybody is a fascist ...be running out of ammo and beer .

The word is losing its value. Its like everyone is some form of fascist for something.

Cant we stick to the genocidal maniac version ? It will save ammo .

This is entirely too true. If we disagree with someone slightly we call them "stupid" because obviously they dont have brain one in their heads or they would not disagree with us. If we disagree vehemantly then we call them "fascists" because then anything we might do to them, no matter how wrong or dispicable or in this instance violent, is quite justifiable.

No you don't. You lie. Right below is proof.

That's not a minuteman rally. That's some pictures of a Nazi rally that someone says is a Minuteman rally.

ah yes, proof by personal denial. nice work.

however, you are right that it wasn't just a minuteman rally - save our state and the minutemen were working on it together. it just so happens that like half of the people those two organizations could get out were nazis. i'm sure that's just a strange coincidence.

Fuck the students, fuck the Minutemen...


I've got no particular problem with any university, but the rest is good.

*seconds the motion*

ah yes, proof by personal denial. nice work.

however, you are right that it wasn't just a minuteman rally - save our state and the minutemen were working on it together. it just so happens that like half of the people those two organizations could get out were nazis. i'm sure that's just a strange coincidence.

Those pictures are not of a Minuteman rally. As can be seen in my picture post the pics you post don't jive. It doesn't even stand to reason. Even if these people:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/bdaz01/DSC016322.jpg

wanted to hang out with these people:

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/Minutemen%20rally-793875.jpg

They sure as Hell wouldn't invite them to one of their rallys which frequently feature U.S. Congress people and certainly the press. The fact is there is not one single indication in the pictures you posted that they were from a Minuteman rally. No Minuteman banners, no signs, no logos, no speakers, no recognized Minuteman personalities, nothing. It's just that you don't mind lying through your teeth. The truth is, I bleiev you know the specious nature of your claims, but you don't care because lying to you to prove a point is just how you roll. You can't win on the facts so you lie. It's okay, bro! ;) You can admit it! It's the first step to getting better! :p

They sure as Hell wouldn't invite them to one of their rallys which frequently feature U.S. Congress people and certainly the press. The fact is there is not one single indication in the pictures you posted that they were from a Minuteman rally. No Minuteman banners, no signs, no logos, no speakers, no recognized Minuteman personalities, nothing. It's just that you don't mind lying through your teeth. The truth is, I bleiev you know the specious nature of your claims, but you don't care because lying to you to prove a point is just how you roll. You can win on the facts so you lie. It's okay, bro! ;) You can admit it! It's the first step to getting better! :p

He already did half admit it with the "save our state" recant.

It's difficult to paint people as monsters who need and deserve to have their asses kicked and bones broken and paint the ass kickers as heroes unless you can show the kickees waving Nazi flags. Whether they actually wave the flag or not. Theres the rub.

More on Illegal immigration and health care.

Illegal immigration is the number one reason our healthcare system is on life support. Hospitals and emergency rooms across the United States are closing, but they are shutting in the areas with the highest rate of illegal immigration. For example, Los Angeles has a huge illegal immigration population and one-third of the patients treated in Los Angeles’ county health system are illegal immigrants.
That’s why, in the past year alone, six emergency rooms have been forced to close in Los Angeles. In the past decade, California lost 65 emergency rooms to the overwhelming burden of caring for illegal immigrants.

Illegal immigrants generally work low-wage jobs without benefits. Because illegal immigrants don't carry health insurance, they use emergency rooms for primary care—the most expensive health care available.

In fact, if we removed illegal immigrants from the equation, the number of “uninsured Americans” the media keeps touting would plummet, because 76 percent of naturalized citizens and 81 percent of native-born Americans have employment-based health insurance.

In Fiscal Year 2001, the total cost for emergency medical care for illegal immigrants in California was more than $648 million. At the same time, the California Association of Public Hospitals notes that California’s public hospitals face a $600 million a year budget deficit. It doesn’t take a mathematician to see how eliminating illegal immigration would turn a deficit into a surplus.

But this is not just a California problem. In the last decade, as illegal immigration has skyrocketed, so have visits to emergency rooms—up 20 percent. Pennsylvania and New Jersey hospitals provided nearly $2 billion in free emergency and short-term care to uninsured patients in 2002, a large share of whom were illegal immigrants. In South Carolina, hospitals have been left with at least $4 million in unpaid maternity bills from illegal immigrants.

Illegal immigration threatens America's health in other ways, as well. Tuberculosis was virtually wiped out in the United States by 1983. It is on the rise again because of unfettered illegal immigration. One individual in central California, an illegal immigrant from Mexico, was responsible for infecting at least 56 other people before he was incarcerated for forced treatment earlier this year.

In 1996, the John Hopkins Center for Tuberculosis Research estimated it cost $13,000 to treat each case of TB. That means it cost U.S. taxpayers $741,000 in 1996 dollars to stem the epidemic caused by a single illegal immigrant.

But, as frightening as that is, it’s only the tip of the iceberg. About 53 percent of the people diagnosed in the United States each year with TB are born outside the U.S. In the Los Angeles area, 80 percent of people infected with TB are foreign-born, with Mexico leading the way, followed by the Philippines, Vietnam, India and China.

I believe illegal immigrants should be treated for life-threatening illnesses and accidents. But once they are stabilized, they should be deported to their native lands. It is not compassionate to destroy our health care system.
http://www.house.gov/gallegly/press2005/col02-0305immigration.htm

OUR HEALTH CARE DELIVERY SYSTEM HAS BECOME THE HMO FOR THE WORLD. WITHIN OUR HEALTH CARE DELIVERY SYSTEM, APPROXIMATELY 30 PERCENT ARE ILLEGALS WHO ARE BEING TREATED ANNUALLY AT A COST OF ROUGHLY $360

Page 4
4MILLION DOLLARS.THIS INCLUDES INPATIENT AND OUTPATIENT SERVICES AS WELL AS MENTAL HEALTHCARE.OUR COUNTY’S DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH SERVICES ESTIMATES THAT NEARLY 26% OF THE AMBULATORY CARE VISITS WERE MADE BY ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.

That's from a Board of Supervisors County of Los Angeles report.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:L8XoKUxOzdcJ:judiciary.house.gov/media/pdfs/antonovich080206.pdf+%2B%22illegal+immigration%22+%2Bhospitals+%2B%22Los+Angeles%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=610

Neo-Nazis volunteered for Jim Gilchrist's recent congressional campaign and distributed racist propaganda at Gilchrist rallies with the full knowledge of the Minuteman Project co-founder and his campaign managers, according to a former Gilchrist campaign volunteer whose account is supported by photographs, video footage and postings on the white supremacist Web site Stormfront.

"They were basically allowing Skinheads and white nationalists to work the phone banks and do IT [computer work] and distribute National Alliance fliers targeting non-whites," Cliff May, a dance instructor in Orange County, Calif., told the Intelligence Report. "When I told Mary [Gilchrist's finance manager] and Eldon [Gilchrist's grassroots coordinator] that I didn't want to work for a campaign that was tainted by white supremacy in any way, they told me not to cause a stir.

"When I kept bringing it up, they kicked me out."
....

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=610

Neo-Nazis volunteered for Jim Gilchrist's recent congressional campaign and distributed racist propaganda at Gilchrist rallies with the full knowledge of the Minuteman Project co-founder and his campaign managers, according to a former Gilchrist campaign volunteer whose account is supported by photographs, video footage and postings on the white supremacist Web site Stormfront.

"They were basically allowing Skinheads and white nationalists to work the phone banks and do IT [computer work] and distribute National Alliance fliers targeting non-whites," Cliff May, a dance instructor in Orange County, Calif., told the Intelligence Report. "When I told Mary [Gilchrist's finance manager] and Eldon [Gilchrist's grassroots coordinator] that I didn't want to work for a campaign that was tainted by white supremacy in any way, they told me not to cause a stir.

"When I kept bringing it up, they kicked me out."
....

Bullshit. You have lost all credibility. These people you quote are no different than you are. Lying is no problem for them because they feel it is okay to do it if it helps their cause.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?aid=54

A prominent anti-immigration leader has secretly urged the nation’s largest neo-Nazi group to launch a campaign of violence and harassment against undocumented workers in the United States.

Laine Lawless, who started a group called Border Guardians last year, sent an April 3 e-mail to Mark Martin, "SS commander" of the Western Ohio unit of the National Socialist Movement, which has 59 chapters in 30 states. It was titled, "How to GET RID OF THEM!"

The e-mail from Lawless, who was also an original member of Chris Simcox’s vigilante militia before it morphed into the Minuteman Project in early 2005, detailed 11 suggestions for ways to harass and terrorize undocumented immigrants, including robbery and "beating up illegals" as they leave their workplace.

"Maybe some of your warriors for the race would be the kind of people willing to implement some of these ideas," Lawless wrote.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?aid=54

A prominent anti-immigration leader has secretly urged the nation’s largest neo-Nazi group to launch a campaign of violence and harassment against undocumented workers in the United States.

Laine Lawless, who started a group called Border Guardians last year, sent an April 3 e-mail to Mark Martin, "SS commander" of the Western Ohio unit of the National Socialist Movement, which has 59 chapters in 30 states. It was titled, "How to GET RID OF THEM!"

The e-mail from Lawless, who was also an original member of Chris Simcox’s vigilante militia before it morphed into the Minuteman Project in early 2005, detailed 11 suggestions for ways to harass and terrorize undocumented immigrants, including robbery and "beating up illegals" as they leave their workplace.

"Maybe some of your warriors for the race would be the kind of people willing to implement some of these ideas," Lawless wrote.

More lies, inuendo and unsupported allegations. I don't believe a word of it.

http://www.calnews.com/archives/contreras273.htm

Making these Minutemen-worshipping talkers and politicians look silly are words from the "belly of the beast," from Oceanside, California’s James Chase. He founded the Border Watch Federation (all of the USA) California Border Watch (California State) Formerly California Minutemen and United States Border Patrol Auxiliary.
...
"Now Mary (Lewis) is even allowing the Nazi party into the campaign and they refuse to remove Ranch Rescue, Andy Ramirez and Cliff Linquist from their links."
...
More importantly, Chase writes: "You have murderers in your ranks. You have Nazi's, other anti-Jews, and anti-hispanic racists side by side with you. You are whom you run around with. Proud to be a Minuteman now? You may not be so proud in the future."

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?aid=54

A prominent anti-immigration leader has secretly urged the nation’s largest neo-Nazi group to launch a campaign of violence and harassment against undocumented workers in the United States.

Laine Lawless, who started a group called Border Guardians last year, sent an April 3 e-mail to Mark Martin, "SS commander" of the Western Ohio unit of the National Socialist Movement, which has 59 chapters in 30 states. It was titled, "How to GET RID OF THEM!"

The e-mail from Lawless, who was also an original member of Chris Simcox’s vigilante militia before it morphed into the Minuteman Project in early 2005, detailed 11 suggestions for ways to harass and terrorize undocumented immigrants, including robbery and "beating up illegals" as they leave their workplace.

"Maybe some of your warriors for the race would be the kind of people willing to implement some of these ideas," Lawless wrote.

LOL. The Southern Poverty Law Group?

Lets see who they list as demons in this nefarious e-mail agenda which they somehow gained the secrets of

Hmmm
1)prominent anti-immigration leader
2)nation’s largest neo-Nazi group
3)Border Guardians
4)SS commander" of the Western Ohio unit of the National Socialist Movement
5)Chris Simcox’s vigilante militia
6)Minuteman Project
7)warriors for the race
8)a number of neo-Nazi bulletin boards
9)Sisterhood of the Moon, a lesbian pagan organization
10)Civil Homeland Defense outfit
11)an online user group, "Border War
12)neo-Nazi Mark Martin
13)the National Socialist Movement
14)the National Alliance
15)Aryan Nations
16)the white supremacist website Stormfront


Nope no chance of moonbatism there. Solid as a rock evidence. Burn the witches.

LOL. The Southern Poverty Law Group?

Lets see who they list as demons in this nefarious e-mail agenda which they somehow gained the secrets of

Hmmm
1)prominent anti-immigration leader
2)nation’s largest neo-Nazi group
3)Border Guardians
4)SS commander" of the Western Ohio unit of the National Socialist Movement
5)Chris Simcox’s vigilante militia
6)Minuteman Project
7)warriors for the race
8)a number of neo-Nazi bulletin boards
9)Sisterhood of the Moon, a lesbian pagan organization
10)Civil Homeland Defense outfit
11)an online user group, "Border War
12)neo-Nazi Mark Martin
13)the National Socialist Movement
14)the National Alliance
15)Aryan Nations
16)the white supremacist website Stormfront


Nope no chance of moonbatism there. Solid as a rock evidence. Burn the witches.

Sonme people just don't know when they've been beat. Some people do know but just can't bring themselves to admit it.

http://www.calnews.com/archives/contreras273.htm

Making these Minutemen-worshipping talkers and politicians look silly are words from the "belly of the beast," from Oceanside, California’s James Chase. He founded the Border Watch Federation (all of the USA) California Border Watch (California State) Formerly California Minutemen and United States Border Patrol Auxiliary.
...
"Now Mary (Lewis) is even allowing the Nazi party into the campaign and they refuse to remove Ranch Rescue, Andy Ramirez and Cliff Linquist from their links."
...
More importantly, Chase writes: "You have murderers in your ranks. You have Nazi's, other anti-Jews, and anti-hispanic racists side by side with you. You are whom you run around with. Proud to be a Minuteman now? You may not be so proud in the future."

Let us assume for the sake of argument that you are right and there are witches...I mean Nazis in the Minutemen. So far the Minutemen have watched the border and reported anyone crossing the border illegally to the authorities. Nothing more. How does their behavior as Minutemen justify beating the hell out of the guy at Columbia U?

The surest way of showing that you fear an idea, that you on some level feel you can not compete with it in the marketplace of ideas, is to attack that idea’s messenger.

Now, I strongly support the freedom of movement for all peaceful human beings, and I think the Minuteman are an unfortunate alliance of xenophobes, nationalists and racists, but I would never stifle their right to speak their mind freely.

Sonme people just don't know when they've been beat. Some people do know but just can't bring themselves to admit it.

Im certain the guy at Columbia knew he had been beaten.

Let me ask you this: What has the Minutemen THEMSELVES done that would be considered fascist?

If all you can TRUTHFULLY say is that they hang with the wrong crowd, that's not enough. I'm talking about a small portian of them or their "friends". I'm tlaking about the group as a whole.

Wheen you show a picture of a neo-nazi rally and say it's of the minutemen, why should I take your word for it? That's not how this works. You show proof THEN I change my mind. Key words are proof and then .

as a non american have i got this straight?

the head of a vigilante group with ties to the extreme right got done by students?

whats the problem? what goes around etc.

as a non american have i got this straight?

the head of a vigilante group with ties to the extreme right got done by students?

whats the problem? what goes around etc.

The problem, SR is that A) The Minutemen aren't a vigilante group, B) no connvincing evidence that they have strong connections to the extreme right has been provided (note that EVERY link Free Soviets has provided has been to the same website) and C), even if they were, the actions of the Columbia students would still be unacceptable.

A few pages back I pointed out to Free Soviets that he was parroting the words and tactics of Adolf Hitler. It seems he accepts this, as he has not deigned to either reply or comment.

The problem, SR is that A) The Minutemen aren't a vigilante group, B) no connvincing evidence that they have strong connections to the extreme right has been provided (note that EVERY link Free Soviets has provided has been to the same website) and C), even if they were, the actions of the Columbia students would still be unacceptable.

A few pages back I pointed out to Free Soviets that he was parroting the words and tactics of Adolf Hitler. It seems he accepts this, as he has not deigned to either reply or comment.

a: they are a textbook definition of vigilantes. a group with no legal mandate 'enforcing' the law (or their version thereof).

b: ill accept thats disputed, but the whiff of those links has always been there.

and c: why is it unacceptable? if he chooses to step outside the law, there are inherent negative consequences. and one of those is the risk of a slap.

a: they are a textbook definition of vigilantes. a group with no legal mandate 'enforcing' the law (or their version thereof).

b: ill accept thats disputed, but the whiff of those links has always been there.

and c: why is it unacceptable? if he chooses to step outside the law, there are inherent negative consequences. and one of those is the risk of a slap.

So vigilante actions to oppose vigilanteism? Fascist actions to oppose fascists? Freedom of speech to oppose freedom of speech?

a: they are a textbook definition of vigilantes. a group with no legal mandate 'enforcing' the law (or their version thereof).
From what I've gathered of the Minutemen, they patrol the border and alert the border patrol to illegal immigrants. If that's vigilantism then so is running a neighbourhood watch.

So vigilante actions to oppose vigilanteism? Fascist actions to oppose fascists? Freedom of speech to oppose freedom of speech?

not quite what i said.

if someone chooses to set up an 'law enforcement agency' outside the law, its a bit rich to complain when someone else steps outside the law to say hello.

they cant have it both ways, they either respect the law and those entrusted to uphold it, or they dont.

not quite what i said.

if someone chooses to set up an 'law enforcement agency' outside the law, its a bit rich to complain when someone else steps outside the law to say hello.

they cant have it both ways, they either respect the law and those entrusted to uphold it, or they dont.

There's a huge difference between contacting authorities when the law is being broken and vandalism, assault, slander, and censorship.

not quite what i said.

if someone chooses to set up an 'law enforcement agency' outside the law, its a bit rich to complain when someone else steps outside the law to say hello.

they cant have it both ways, they either respect the law and those entrusted to uphold it, or they dont.
So if I call the police when I see a neighbour's house being burgled, does that make me a vigilante? If not, the Minutemen aren't vigilantes either. They're just eyes and ears on the ground who help the authorities enforce the law. It's an admirable thing to do.

There's a huge difference between contacting authorities when the law is being broken and vandalism, assault, slander, and censorship.

and there is a huge difference between 'contacting authorities when the law is being broken' and founding a militia with the specific intention of ursurping the role of the legally mandated border authorities.

lifting the phone when you see a crime is one thing.

arming yourself and going on patrol is a whole different ball game.

stop pretending these guys are some sort of residents association group

not quite what i said.

if someone chooses to set up an 'law enforcement agency' outside the law, its a bit rich to complain when someone else steps outside the law to say hello.

they cant have it both ways, they either respect the law and those entrusted to uphold it, or they dont.

They just sit, observe and report illegal activity to the police. How is that not respecting the law and those entrusted to uphold it?

It's like complaining about neighborhood watch schemes,


If however there are subgroups that get a bit more 'involved' then that is a very different issue.

not quite what i said.

if someone chooses to set up an 'law enforcement agency' outside the law, its a bit rich to complain when someone else steps outside the law to say hello.

they cant have it both ways, they either respect the law and those entrusted to uphold it, or they dont.

They just sit, observe and report illegal activity to the police. How is that not respecting the law and those entrusted to uphold it?

It's like complaining about neighborhood watch schemes,


If however there are subgroups that get a bit more 'involved' then that is a very different issue.

not quite what i said.

if someone chooses to set up an 'law enforcement agency' outside the law, its a bit rich to complain when someone else steps outside the law to say hello.

they cant have it both ways, they either respect the law and those entrusted to uphold it, or they dont.

They just sit, observe and report illegal activity to the police. How is that not respecting the law and those entrusted to uphold it?

It's like complaining about neighborhood watch schemes,


If however there are subgroups that get a bit more 'involved' then that is a very different issue.

not quite what i said.

if someone chooses to set up an 'law enforcement agency' outside the law, its a bit rich to complain when someone else steps outside the law to say hello.

they cant have it both ways, they either respect the law and those entrusted to uphold it, or they dont.

They just sit, observe and report illegal activity to the police. How is that not respecting the law and those entrusted to uphold it?

It's like complaining about neighborhood watch schemes,


If however there are subgroups that get a bit more 'involved' then that is a very different issue.

and there is a huge difference between 'contacting authorities when the law is being broken' and founding a militia with the specific intention of ursurping the role of the legally mandated border authorities.

lifting the phone when you see a crime is one thing.

arming yourself and going on patrol is a whole different ball game.

stop pretending these guys are some sort of residents association group

"Usurp authority"? Sure, right. whatever you say.

They sit there and call border patrol. Are some armed? Yes. Are some border crossers violent? Yes.

The students are only like this because now the price of the illegal drug marijuana is going up. And of course marijuana giving them the ability of a dellusional thought process, has made them quite ignorant and stupid.

But of course, such protests should never be acceptable EVER. All protests should be done in a peaceful manner. No anger and no violence. It also disrupts the man entitled to his freedom of speech to those who want to hear more about the minutemen project.

Anyways, it is very clear that far left agendas are being lodged into the fickle minded college student at major universities all around the country. Because the far left know how to get the masses on their side. When college students drink and use drugs, they are as fickle as a german. Then they have to go to class and let the corruption begin!

All I want to say is put up a fucking wall already. It'd much cheaper rebuilding a fence and the employment of border patrol. Drug trafficing and illegal immigration will cease, and they will wait in line like everybody else. We choose who comes into our country, not them. How would we know if a terrorist gets in through like that. If you're rich enough you will be given a citizenship to mexico like that, and then off to Texas! And Al-Qaeda is well funded.

The Great Wall Of America, KEEP THEM GAWD DAWM MONGOEANS i i mean mexicans OUT!

note that EVERY link Free Soviets has provided has been to the same website

oh?

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?aid=54

http://www.calnews.com/archives/contreras273.htm



http://ctv.osa.columbia.edu/ctvnews/2006/10/web-update-minutemen-protest.html

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/01/march-of-minutemen.html

A few pages back I pointed out to Free Soviets that he was parroting the words and tactics of Adolf Hitler. It seems he accepts this, as he has not deigned to either reply or comment.

or, perhaps he finds it so mindnumbingly stupid that it isn't worth his time. like "hitler was a vegetarian, therefore vegetarians are hitler" - except that in that case the connection actually is slightly more real. it's like neo undelia's claim over in "the battle of cable street" thread that the weimar fell because it didn't protect free speech; so retarded as to make you question whether the speaker might actually be retarded.

I say thank God for activist Liberal students who put the boot to this racist scumbag.


just because a bunch of slackjawed lily white yocals cant tell the difference between an Arab and a Mexican doesnt mean the Mexicans cant.



???

This annoys the snerx out of me. http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/10/05/at-columbia-students-attack-minuteman-founder/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nysun.com%2Farticle%2F41020&frame=true

To be brief: he founder of the Minutemen, a volunteer group that monitors the border between the US and Mexico, was attacked by students after being invited to speak at Columbia University.

I don't care if you like or don't like this guy's politics, position or attitude. The Columbia students responsible for this are clearly a bunch of thugs who want to eliminate a dissenting voice.

Why haven't you heard! "Freedom of speech" only applies if the far left agrees with you! Tsk! How behind the times you are. :D

oh?











or, perhaps he finds it so mindnumbingly stupid that it isn't worth his time. like "hitler was a vegetarian, therefore vegetarians are hitler" - except that in that case the connection actually is slightly more real. it's like neo undelia's claim over in "the battle of cable street" thread that the weimar fell because it didn't protect free speech; so retarded as to make you question whether the speaker might actually be retarded.

Okay, I'll retract - it was only all the links I'd noticed that were to the one site.

Neo Undelia isn't entirely wrong, by the by. Lack of enunciated rights is a common flaw in democratic governments, and it was one that Hitler used - one of many. It was a contributory factor.

Now, you have addressed my statement, but you still fail to refute it. By your words, you are in favour of the concept of the ends justifying the means - in this case, using illegal and extrajudicial methods to eliminate and silence anyone you label "fascist".
That is still the position of the totalitarian, such as Hitler (or, to be fair, Stalin). You are still his parrot.

SR - the Minutemen, from everything I have been able to find, have not been seriously implicated of any case of "taking the law into their own hands." They seem to have conducted a few Citizen's Arrests (which are quite legal in the US), and mostly seem content to simply inform the Border Patrol of possible incursions. They have broken no law, and seem mainly to have acted as good citizens. The students at Columbia had no excuse for their behaviour.

Wow, lots of rhetoric getting tossed around this thread the way a monkey tosses his feces.

I would just like to know how anti-Illegal immigration suddenly becomes synonymous with anti-immigration.

Wow, lots of rhetoric getting tossed around this thread the way a monkey tosses his feces.

I would just like to know how anti-Illegal immigration suddenly becomes synonymous with anti-immigration.

The FAR, far-Left(very far) can not tell the difference between a Mexican going through the process and entering the United States legally and a Mexican that got here just by crossing a poorly-defended border. Many of those that far left will call anyone who is willing to help the authorities fascists and will resort to fascist tactics(silencing all those who disagree with you) to silence the "fascists". Trust me when I say this: Fight fire with fire and all you end up with is a bigger fire.

Let me ask you this: What has the Minutemen THEMSELVES done that would be considered fascist?

mainstreamed fascist rhetoric and ideas and watered-down versions of fascist actions. given fascists a ride into some sort of respectability and given them a platform for recruiting and advertising. every time you allow that to happen, fascists start feeling brave and start attacking people. so you get the waves of fascist organizing and violence that we've seen around the country since this whole thing came up. the one follows directly from the other.

Wheen you show a picture of a neo-nazi rally and say it's of the minutemen, why should I take your word for it?

that's not a nazi rally. if it were nazis rallying as nazis (rather than as something else, but willing to show off their nazi-itude on the side) there would be a line of cops and some barriers to keep them seperated from the 1000 or so counter-demonstrators.

i'm not going to post the link (i don't think it's allowed here in the first place, and i'm not sending anyone there myself), but i am right now looking at a thread on stormfront's forum where the fascists are talking about that day. you can find it too, fairly easily, if you're interested. the thread title is "Arrested at Laguna Beach II". a few of the comments:

Why use something that is going to turn off the majority of those who would otherwise agree with us?
The flags came out in the last few moments of the protest. The commies were chanting "Nazis Go Home" for hours on end non-stop, so I and everyone present on the street in the hot sun, facing hostile commies, browns, and who-knows-what greenlighted the flag idea. We will stand behind our decision.

And by the way, where was SOS? I think I saw one guy with a SOS sign which was across the way from us. Those fighting and putting our lives ont he line for what we believe in consist of National Socialists, Klansmen, or other racially away folk. We were on the front-line. We are the soldiers.

All those opposing us kept yelling, or had signs saying "Nazis go home". I thought I would kick it up a notch by showing our true hatred for this scum. Having my brother go back and get the flags, was discussed and agreed upon by several others prior to it being done.

sos is "save our state", which joined with the minutemen last year to organize a series of protests and rallies, each well attended by nazis and not so well attended by anyone else.

By your words, you are in favour of the concept of the ends justifying the means - in this case, using illegal and extrajudicial methods to eliminate and silence anyone you label "fascist".
That is still the position of the totalitarian, such as Hitler (or, to be fair, Stalin). You are still his parrot.

even if it were the case that i held that the ends justify the means, that is a position in no way, shape, or form restricted to totalitarians. it isn't even restricted to authoritarians. for example, it actually falls out of one of the most commonly held ethical theories around. utilitarianism explicitly holds it, as must all consequentialist theories of ethics as far as i can see.

of course, i actually hold that in light of what we know about fascism - what it is, how it operates, how it spreads, the danger it poses, and what actually works to defeat it - the means i advocate are just in themselves.

I was going to stay out of this but I have to comment. Free Soviets, I don't care how much you hate the minutemen or how much you use the word "fascist" but you are completely out of line excusing the actions of these students and especially the faculty at Columbia.

They called a black minuteman speaker a racial epithet (How dare a black man follow his own conscience!) and held up a sign with Arabic writing which slandered Jews and mentioned some "Zionist" conspiracy. How did the Jews get brought into this? Yet you condone all of this. Hate begets more Hate. Violence begets more violence.

Also, a huge chunk of the "pro illegal immigration" crowd is just as extreme in their rhetoric as you insist the MM to be. I do not know about you, but I do not buy into their whole Aztlan philosophy of "One Continent, One Nation, One people...No Anglos!". I scoff at the slogan "We didn't cross the borders, the borders crossed us!" often used at protests and I see plenty of Che Guevarra posters and other Communist symbolism at their rallies. I believe in natonal sovereignty and controlling our borders and I welcome legal immigration. I have gone into more detail about my stance on this issue if you care to look back in this thread. I am no radical and feel I have a sensible outlook on this whole issue.

But screaming "Fascists!" at one side while approving of the actions of another side which has proven itself to be extreme...well...that does not give you much credibility in the objectivity department.

and your name "Free Soviets"; at first I thought it was an intentional oxymoron but I think I now know its true meaning...a euphemism for Anarchy.

lesse 12 million people just wandered illegally into thee US ...so the border guards are a joke and that systems broke..(FACT ALERT ).


So a group of American citizens in areas directly affected by the influx of ILLEGAL immigrants .. ( FACT ALERT ) ILLEGAL because they are tresspassing and ignoring the law in a country built and governed on the RULE of law.( Fact ALERT ).

The above Americans decide to fill in the gaps along the thousand mile border pratrolled by the few hundred border agents...that have LET 12 MILLION immigrants in Illlegally ...being that they are out at night in the wilderness or dessert and in remote area's and may have to deal with anything from rattleesnakes to Coyotes to actual Mexicans with guns caalled coyotes that resent being ratted on ..it cost them money dammit ! ..along with the occasional drug smuggler and friends,,,they decide its a bit STUPID not to carry at least a hand gun ..cripes they do it just to check the fences on the ranch !

Now I realise your normal everyday left wing radical whack job has not a clue about being out in the south west at night and why its a bit smart to carry a shotgun or a handgun...so I cut them some slack...not much need for a gun in the chatroom drinking lattes...


So these average American Citizens organise to do a town watch only along the border...

All the left wing radical nutjobs go insane and run foaming at the mouth screaming about FASCIST ! AHHHHHHH they are oppressing the poor brown buggers sneaking over the border AND MAY BE armed and WATCHING ...AHHHHHHHHHH ...its HITLER AT THE BORDER !!! ( Good name for a band ) ...


Now back to earth and reality...ummm the government cant fix it..this is America so we tend to fix stuff when the government fails to protect us...its like PART of our job ..you know ??? Well YOU dont know ..but its sort of a tradition...forming militia to protect your state from invasion...joining the National guard...the army...the police force... AND forming watch groups to supplement the police aand thee border guards is no FUCKING DIFFERENT .

Its Civic fucking duty and its a good thing being done for good reasons by GOOD people .


Fascist fascust .FASCIST,,,your a little fascist...opressing the minority ...blah blah blah..

Ahhh reality.....cut back on the caffine and go hug a tree .

Better yet go surround business that hire illegaals and protest them point them out...boycott companies that hire illegals ..force change the right way by CIVIC and CIVIL action...soon the dudes with money will get the message and change the law so that guest workers who are welcome AND needed can come over the border LEGAL LIKE .


It much more fun to beat up an old dude and make fun at the minutemen and run around screaming FASCIST instead of doing ANYTHING usefull .

Besides doing civic things in a civil manner is so boring .

Who said the students actually rioted because the price of marijuana went up thanks to less supply getting past the minutemen? That was pretty funny. Something like that could be on the Daily Show...if the Daily Show wasn't so tilted to the left these days.

Maybe Colbert would mention that on his show. He's ruthless with everybody but lacks the smirk of Stewart. imo :)

I was going to stay out of this but I have to comment. Free Soviets, I don't care how much you hate the minutemen or how much you use the word "fascist" but you are completely out of line excusing the actions of these students and especially the faculty at Columbia.

their actions weren't even illegal, and any punishment they recieve will be from their university, not from the police. because you do not have a right to not be interrupted.

They called a black minuteman speaker a racial epithet

didn't happen
don't lie

and held up a sign with Arabic writing which slandered Jews and mentioned some "Zionist" conspiracy.

don't lie

How did the Jews get brought into this?

by you. you are the first person to mention them. funny, that.

Also, a huge chunk of the "pro illegal immigration" crowd is just as extreme in their rhetoric as you insist the MM to be. I do not know about you, but I do not buy into their whole Aztlan philosophy of "One Continent, One Nation, One people...No Anglos!". I scoff at the slogan "We didn't cross the borders, the borders crossed us!" often used at protests and I see plenty of Che Guevarra posters and other Communist symbolism at their rallies.

Have you been to any of their rallies? I have.

Never seen anyone say or hold a sign saying "No Anglos." Ever.

I have seen images of Che Guevara, but those are common to all movements affiliated with the Left.

Now, Communist symbolism - blame the Leninist parties that show up in force every time those things are held, not the planners themselves. And they aren't that bad, really; their line on immigration is better than that of most of the others.

even if it were the case that i held that the ends justify the means, that is a position in no way, shape, or form restricted to totalitarians. it isn't even restricted to authoritarians. for example, it actually falls out of one of the most commonly held ethical theories around. utilitarianism explicitly holds it, as must all consequentialist theories of ethics as far as i can see.

of course, i actually hold that in light of what we know about fascism - what it is, how it operates, how it spreads, the danger it poses, and what actually works to defeat it - the means i advocate are just in themselves.

To be perfectly honest, that is the most insane and inhuman posting I have ever seen on this, or any, board.

You have chosen for yourself the position of judge, jury and executioner for anyone you consider "Fascist", said label to be applied to anyone slightly to the right of Karl Marx. In the name of stamping out fascism, you are apparently willing to stamp out Free Speech, condone political violence, and even use one of the Nazi's most effective propaganda techniques - blame the victim.
I was wrong. You don't just parrot Hitler - you want to BE Hitler!

their actions weren't even illegal, and any punishment they recieve will be from their university, not from the police. because you do not have a right to not be interrupted.



didn't happen
don't lie



don't lie



by you. you are the first person to mention them. funny, that.


The Black Minuteman said it himself during a couple of interviews I saw. If you wish to ignore this serious accusation and call him a liar because you lack any objectivity what so ever, then so be it.

And it seems if anyone questions anything those students did, you call them a liar. Did you not see the sign? it had Arabic writing on it, and it is said to have slandered the Jews by saying the holocaust did not happen or something along those lines. No matter what is said, what the hell is ARABIC writing doing on that sign?

In your mind those students did nothing wrong simply because you agree with them. You lack any sort of objectivity and your thinking is void of rationality and driven solely by your ideology. If someone disagrees with you, you will try to shout them down with words such as rascist, fascist or liar. Real productive.

What they did was not technically illegal, but it was immature and inappropriate. Let the man speak, then later argue your position like an ADULT. They were going to offer a question and answer segment after the speech, this is where they could have been heard instead of acting like a bunch of hooligans coming very close to inciting a riot which, by the way, happens to be a serious offense.

I guess it is ok for true fascists like Ahmadinejad to speak at universities, but not what essentially amounts to a citizen watch group. :rolleyes:

As I said before, there is no such thing as the free exchange of ideas on college campuses anymore. Oh and what is it that liberals say when it comes to the first amendment..."it is not speech that you like that it is protected, but speech that you hate". Well start practicing what you preach because if Columbia is a sign of how people like you distort the first amendment...I thank God for the Second Amendment.

Free Soviet, free as long as you subscribe to the soviet way of thinking.

Subject: Democrat/Repubplican/Texan response to a problem

The answer can be found by answering the following question:


You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, an Islamic Terrorist with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, praises Allah, raises the knife, and charges at you. You are carrying a Glock 40 caliber, and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family.


What do you do?


Democrat's Answer:


Well, that's not enough information to answer the question!

What have I done to provoke this attack?

Could we run away?

What does my wife think?

What does the UN think?

Could I perhaps swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? Does this Glock have appropriate safety built into it?

What kind of message does this gun send to society and to my children? Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me?

Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was taking time stabbing me? Should I call 9-1-1?

We need to raise taxes. This is all so confusing!

I need to discuss this with some liberal friends for a few days and try to come to a consensus.


Republican's Answer:


BANG!


Texan's Answer:


BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!

Click..... (Reload)

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!

Click


Daughter: "Nice grouping, Daddy! Were those the Winchester Silver Tips or Hollow Points?"


Son: "Can I shoot the next one!"


Wife: "You ain't taking that to the Taxidermist!"

Well, I hold the President and his staff responsible. When a university invites a guest to their campus, they have a certain amount of responsibility to see that the guest is protected. They failed as a host. The campus police stood around with their fingers up there butts and allowed it to happen.

Columbia University is a shame. Not only did they attack the minute man they also attacked a black speaker too. Calling him a n****r and throwing stuff at him. It was a complete mess and the campus police did absolutely nothing.

I say stop the funding.

The Black Minuteman said it himself during a couple of interviews I saw. If you wish to ignore this serious accusation and call him a liar because you lack any objectivity what so ever, then so be it.

and yet it didn't make any news accounts of the event
three possibilities:
1) nobody who isn't a minuteman heard it
2) nobody who isn't a minuteman thought it worth reporting
3) the minutemen, who have been caught being a little loose with truth many times before, are doing so again.

1 and 2 seem rather unlikely, at best.

Did you not see the sign? it had Arabic writing on it, and it is said to have slandered the Jews by saying the holocaust did not happen or something along those lines. No matter what is said, what the hell is ARABIC writing doing on that sign?

you mean this sign?
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/5992/yellowsignlo9.jpg

hmm, it appears to say "no one is illegal" in spanish and english. but i'm sure you are right that the middle part of it says "kill the jews". that's completely reasonable.



btw, if anyone wants to see the minuteman with the hat - the one that threw something at one of the protesters in the last video i linked - kick someone in the head, check out univision's coverage of the event:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N41eXtVK7hA

You have chosen for yourself the position of judge, jury and executioner for anyone you consider "Fascist", said label to be applied to anyone slightly to the right of Karl Marx.

yeah, that's completely consistent with what i said. i am amazed at your powers of reading comprehension.

and yet it didn't make any news accounts of the event
three possibilities:
1) nobody who isn't a minuteman heard it
2) nobody who isn't a minuteman thought it worth reporting
3) the minutemen, who have been caught being a little loose with truth many times before, are doing so again.

1 and 2 seem rather unlikely, at best.



you mean this sign?
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/5992/yellowsignlo9.jpg

hmm, it appears to say "no one is illegal" in spanish and english. but i'm sure you are right that the middle part of it says "kill the jews". that's completely reasonable.



btw, if anyone wants to see the minuteman with the hat - the one that threw something at one of the protesters in the last video i linked - kick someone in the head, check out univision's coverage of the event:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N41eXtVK7hA

Or 4. the protestors (the ones actually using the fascist tactics) are going to deny and downplay thier actions so as to continue to make themselves out as the victims and to justify using freedom of speech to stop someones freedom of speech.

Or 4. the protestors (the ones actually using the fascist tactics) are going to deny and downplay thier actions so as to continue to make themselves out as the victims and to justify using freedom of speech to stop someones freedom of speech.

discounted by the fact that there were cameras and reporters there, and nobody else seems to have heard anything of the sort. also by the fact that the only people claiming that anyone called anyone a ****** are the same exact people that are claiming that the arabic writing on the sign above says anything other than 'no one is illegal', like it does in the other two langauges on it.

basically, marvin stewart is full of shit and should probably shut up and stop embarassing himself.

yeah, that's completely consistent with what i said. i am amazed at your powers of reading comprehension.

To be fair, the "slightly to the right of Karl Marx" part may have been somewhat hyperbolic, but I stand by the rest.

You have consistently been defending the use of force in order to silence those you deem "fascists". You have been outspoken in your use of Simple Denial propaganda techniques ("That didn't happen" "he didn't say that") but when challenged on such have failed to put up links or statements corroborating your POV - rather like Goebels' clear declaration that Kristallnacht "did not happen" to foreign journalists. Your evidence of the Minutemen being a Fascist organization has been weak, at best, showing only a relationship between them and other extreme right-wing organizations - and we already knew they were right-wing. And you have now stated that, and I quote:

i actually hold that in light of what we know about fascism - what it is, how it operates, how it spreads, the danger it poses, and what actually works to defeat it - the means i advocate are just in themselves.

Therefore, the only thing I can conclude is that A) you advocate violence against those you consider "fascist", B) you have set yourself up as the arbiter of who is or isn't "fascist", and C) any action against "fascists" is automatically justified.

I see no functional difference between your position and that of Adolf Hitler regarding "subhumans" (Gypsies, Jews, Slavs et al).

Neither position is compatible with a civilized society.

Or 4. the protestors (the ones actually using the fascist tactics) are going to deny and downplay thier actions so as to continue to make themselves out as the victims and to justify using freedom of speech to stop someones freedom of speech.

You seem to be overplaying what is reasonable to be on that sign ...