NationStates Jolt Archive

Normally sermons that Father Gray or Father Geiger say usually just goes in one ear and out the other. However, last Sunday Father Geiger shared an intresting story, and it has stuck with me for almost a week now! I completely agree with it too!


You have a little girl, and her father. Everyday the little girl would come home from school, and the father would be on the couch watching TV and drinking. The girl would seek attention from her father, but her father would always tell her to go play outside. This led the girl to go down the path of prositution and seeking attention from other men and in other ways. She dies and appears at the gates. St. Peter says "You cannot enter, you are a Prositute." However God said "Let her enter, however, when her dad gets here, hold him responsible."


That is a freakin' awesome sermon!

So... no one's responsible for their own actions? My devious desire are the fault of my druggie father? Great sermon indeed. :rolleyes:

*calls bullshit*

People are responsible for their OWN actions.

Nothing forced the girl into prostitution.

This, of course, assumes that prostitutes don't get into heaven. :p

So... no one's responsible for their own actions? My devious desire are the fault of my druggie father? Great sermon indeed. :rolleyes:

The father has the responsibility of raising the child and do right by her. The father failed at that job, so yes, he is to be held accountable.

the father has his hand in it, yes.

But she still chose. And should be held responsible as such.

Perhaps it was the grandfathers fault for not loving the father enough? And his fathers fault? And his? And his?

The father has the responsibility of raising the child and do right by her. The father failed at that job, so yes, he is to be held accountable.

Again, I call bullshit.

You're implying that her becoming a prostitute was a direct result of his actions.

And I say again...nothing FORCED her to become a prostitute. It was her own decision, and therefore she should be held accountable for her own actions.

Unless you want to throw personal responsibility right out the window...:rolleyes:

the father has his hand in it, yes.

But she still chose. And should be held responsible as such.

Perhaps it was the grandfathers fault for not loving the father enough? And his fathers fault? And his? And his?

All the way to Adam, and then to God. God made her whore herself. *nod*

*laughs at thread title*

Again, I call bullshit.

You're implying that her becoming a prostitute was a direct result of his actions.

And I say again...nothing FORCED her to become a prostitute. It was her own decision, and therefore she should be held accountable for her own actions.

Unless you want to throw personal responsibility right out the window...:rolleyes:

You'd be amazed how kids who don't even get love and attention that they deserve and need turn out. Well, maybe not that suprised. Yes no one forced her to be a prositute, but what if she didn't know that? What if she thought that her daddy didn't love her because she didn't put out? Yes, no one forced her to become a prositute, but the father is also at fault because he did not raise her right and give her the love and attention that she needed. Parents have such an amazing power of shaping their children's lives.

All the way to Adam, and then to God. God made her whore herself. *nod*

and thus, we face the contradiction of omnipotence v. free will.

So basically.

Because she didn't get any attention, she decided to get it from Johns, and not her friends.

It makes sense she'd turn to men. Generally, hatred or inattention from the father results in an epidemic of Christians, Apostates and prostitutes.

But without prostitutes, who would Jeremy Irons sleep with!?

Were I God, I would have let her into Heaven... but then again, were I God, I would let everyone into Heaven, and I have no moral problem with the choice to become a prostitute (merely with the circumstances that may lead to such a choice.)

There is not enough information to assess the father's responsibility, but certainly he appears to be a poor father.

Christianity and Free Will are not compatible.

Their:
God is omniscient. He knows everything that has, is, and will be. Therefore, he knows what we're gonna do. In turn, although we don't know, there is the ending that he has already seen that will occur.

We in turn:
Have local free will, or at least we believe that far. We make what decisions we will - but don't, in the long run, get to pick the ending.

Our novels always end with us waking up.

Oh. It was just a dream.

You'd be amazed how kids who don't even get love and attention that they deserve and need turn out. Well, maybe not that suprised. Yes no one forced her to be a prositute, but what if she didn't know that? What if she thought that her daddy didn't love her because she didn't put out? Yes, no one forced her to become a prositute, but the father is also at fault because he did not raise her right and give her the love and attention that she needed. Parents have such an amazing power of shaping their children's lives.

I agree...and in the example you have illustrated, it is clear that the father is not what one could call a good parent.

That does not absolve the daughter from personal responsibility...it was her decision to become a prostitute, and certainly not the fathers.

I agree...and in the example you have illustrated, it is clear that the father is not what one could call a good parent.

That does not absolve the daughter from personal responsibility...it was her decision to become a prostitute, and certainly not the fathers.

I agree. But what if, beside the prositute part that this girl was geniuenlly (can't spell, sue me) a good person? I mean Jesus befriended a Prositute, so is this sermon really that far out? I do agree that they both should be held accountable for their action, but the father should recieve greater accountability because he was not only in charge of his own life, but in the life of his daughter.

I agree. But what if, beside the prositute part that this girl was geniuenlly (can't spell, sue me) a good person? I mean Jesus befriended a Prositute, so is this sermon really that far out? I do agree that they both should be held accountable for their action, but the father should recieve greater accountability because he was not only in charge of his own life, but in the life of his daughter.

Mary Magdelene quit.

Mary Magdelene quit.

Ehh.... I never read that she did...I might've missed that part.

I agree. But what if, beside the prositute part that this girl was geniuenlly (can't spell, sue me) a good person? I mean Jesus befriended a Prositute, so is this sermon really that far out? I do agree that they both should be held accountable for their action, but the father should recieve greater accountability because he was not only in charge of his own life, but in the life of his daughter.

Well, now you get into the issue of if prostitution is actually a "sin". Personally, I say no. But I also don't believe in sin...so yeah.

I agree. But what if, beside the prositute part that this girl was geniuenlly (can't spell, sue me) a good person? I mean Jesus befriended a Prositute, so is this sermon really that far out? I do agree that they both should be held accountable for their action, but the father should recieve greater accountability because he was not only in charge of his own life, but in the life of his daughter.

We're never going to agree on this point...

...it was not the father's decision for his daughter to become a prostitute. No matter what his motives or intentions, it was HER decision.

Why should he be punished for her choice??

We're never going to agree on this point...

...it was not the father's decision for his daughter to become a prostitute. No matter what his motives or intentions, it was HER decision.

Why should he be punished for her choice??

Because, whether he liked it or not, whether he wanted it or not, he was the father, and being the father puts you in charge of a life, a life that you shape and mold with every action, word and push you make. Simply by being the father, he was, is, and always will be responsible for the life of his offsprings. Just like I'm responsible for the life of my Siamese kitten. I play with my kitten everyday. I don't have to, but if I don't then she'll be resentful towards humans.

The father should be held accountable because he is the father, he is responsible for the life of his daugther, and since he has negelcted that life, he should pay for it. The father is not only responsible for himself. That is what being a father is all about.

Well, now you get into the issue of if prostitution is actually a "sin". Personally, I say no. But I also don't believe in sin...so yeah.
According to christianity, yes.

Sex ex marriage is totally not right. By them



personally,

prostitutes have cool political views. I knew quite a few :D

The father should be held accountable because he is the father, he is responsible for the life of his daugther, and since he has negelcted that life, he should pay for it. The father is not only responsible for himself. That is what being a father is all about.

So if his daughter went on a killing spree at age 26, you'd lock up the father?

Sounds pretty wacky to me.

Because, whether he liked it or not, whether he wanted it or not, he was the father, and being the father puts you in charge of a life, a life that you shape and mold with every action, word and push you make. Simply by being the father, he was, is, and always will be responsible for the life of his offsprings. Just like I'm responsible for the life of my Siamese kitten. I play with my kitten everyday. I don't have to, but if I don't then she'll be resentful towards humans.

The father should be held accountable because he is the father, he is responsible for the life of his daugther, and since he has negelcted that life, he should pay for it. The father is not only responsible for himself. That is what being a father is all about.
I think most of us agree that the father does bear some responsibility...the question becomes how much?

If I'm reading you correctly, he deserves most of it...say...75/25 or so?

My problem is that we aren't given much to go by...he might have been a decent father, but not attentive...he might have had to work several jobs to support his family...there are always circumstances, and those never justify actions, but they explain them.

The same applies to the girl. The circumstances don't justify the actions. The just explain them. Assuming that prostitution is bad, she still made her choice. She could have done many things to cope...some form of addiction (be it drugs, work, rage, whathaveyou), therapy, etc. She still made her choice. And therefore, the rewards are hers as much as the costs.

If she had gone on to be incredibly successful...rich, wonderful husband, beautiful children...would the father deserve the same credit? If he is responsible for her blight, the would be equally responsible in her success.

I think most of us agree that the father does bear some responsibility...the question becomes how much?

If I'm reading you correctly, he deserves most of it...say...75/25 or so?

My problem is that we aren't given much to go by...he might have been a decent father, but not attentive...he might have had to work several jobs to support his family...there are always circumstances, and those never justify actions, but they explain them.

The same applies to the girl. The circumstances don't justify the actions. The just explain them. Assuming that prostitution is bad, she still made her choice. She could have done many things to cope...some form of addiction (be it drugs, work, rage, whathaveyou), therapy, etc. She still made her choice. And therefore, the rewards are hers as much as the costs.

If she had gone on to be incredibly successful...rich, wonderful husband, beautiful children...would the father deserve the same credit? If he is responsible for her blight, the would be equally responsible in her success.

But people never want to hold others responsible for their success. That'd be unAmerican!!

I think most of us agree that the father does bear some responsibility...the question becomes how much?

If I'm reading you correctly, he deserves most of it...say...75/25 or so?

My problem is that we aren't given much to go by...he might have been a decent father, but not attentive...he might have had to work several jobs to support his family...there are always circumstances, and those never justify actions, but they explain them.

The same applies to the girl. The circumstances don't justify the actions. The just explain them. Assuming that prostitution is bad, she still made her choice. She could have done many things to cope...some form of addiction (be it drugs, work, rage, whathaveyou), therapy, etc. She still made her choice. And therefore, the rewards are hers as much as the costs.

If she had gone on to be incredibly successful...rich, wonderful husband, beautiful children...would the father deserve the same credit? If he is responsible for her blight, the would be equally responsible in her success.

If the father never changes, but the girl does become successful, then personally I don't think he deserves any credit towards her success because from what we're given, he did nothing to contribute to it.

If the father never changes, but the girl does become successful, then personally I don't think he deserves any credit towards her success because from what we're given, he did nothing to contribute to it.

but if he contributed to her downfall, and it is mostly his fault, then why is it not his work that contributed to her success? If his actions do as much as you say they do to shape her, then it must swing both ways.

But people never want to hold others responsible for their success. That'd be unAmerican!!

Never soil the name of The Glorious Democratic People's Republic of America by mentioning the U.n., our glorious leader, who is always watching in his benevolence, shall strike you down.

Are you serious? That's it? I was all ready to get all flamebaity and agitated but that is just dumb. Not worth it. :(

God should reward that guy on raising a prostitute so famous even St. Peter had heard of her.

woah woah woah! back up a minute people!

obviously people are responsible for their own actions (unless tricked or forced), but had her Father looked after her properly, she wouldn't have gone the way she did. You can't ALWAYS blame the individual when someone else, while they may not be directly responsible, is partly to blame

the father has his hand in it, yes.

But she still chose. And should be held responsible as such...

Let's have a look at the choice: be isolated with a drunk Father who doesn't seem to give a shit about you, or seek attention from other men. Not the best choise in the world is it?

woah woah woah! back up a minute people!

obviously people are responsible for their own actions (unless tricked or forced), but had her Father looked after her properly, she wouldn't have gone the way she did. You can't ALWAYS blame the individual when someone else, while they may not be [/directly[/i] responsible, is partly to blame

I can blame whoever I want, observe. "The coffee's gone" "Jews did it.". See?

God should reward that guy on raising a prostitute so famous even St. Peter had heard of her.

St Peter probably picked her up one night.

St Peter probably picked her up one night.

So that's why he doesn't want her in heaven, he doesn't want Mrs. St. Peter to find out what really happend on that business trip.

woah woah woah! back up a minute people!

obviously people are responsible for their own actions (unless tricked or forced), but had her Father looked after her properly, she wouldn't have gone the way she did.

How do you know that?

Not every prostitute in the world had it rough growing up.

Normally sermons that Father Gray or Father Geiger say usually just goes in one ear and out the other. However, last Sunday Father Geiger shared an intresting story, and it has stuck with me for almost a week now! I completely agree with it too!



That is a freakin' awesome sermon!

actualy i would not aggree that there is anything wrong with prostitution, (aside from all of capitolism being prostitution), but i do aggree her father was an idiot.

not for being nonsocial, but for expecting to find gratification by imparing his judgement and then subjecting himself to the brainwashing of corporate media.

but then i don't reguard organized monotheism as a standard of morality, but rather do appreciate it, along with anything else that does so, for encouraging people to want to avoid causing suffering and harm.

=^^=
.../\...

What if the father dies before the girl turns to prostitution and gets in anyway? Can they change their mind?

:p

My father hardly ever paid attention to me until I became a teenager. He lived in a different house and all of that and my mother and he were divorced.

By the same logic that a father ignoring his daughter turns her into a prostitute, does that mean I'll turn into one?

Uh...sorry no. And where the hell does the mother come into this equation by the way? We've had no comments on her! Does that mean she died or left? Because if that was the case maybe the daughter reminded him too much of his wife and he was grieving.

Either way, the girl is accountable for her own actions and choices in life.

I'm not big on many christians at the moment, esspecially as when I was one, more than a couple shunned me because my parents were divorced, despite there being nothing in the bible against that.

So that's why he doesn't want her in heaven, he doesn't want Mrs. St. Peter to find out what really happend on that business trip.

I'd say so. Imagine how awkward that conversation would be.

I was just, ah, in Sydney for, ah, business. That's right, business, when I, ah, bumped into this young lady, who, ah, helped me go shopping for the rest of the afternoon. That's when I bought you that pretty neckalce, remember? That's all there was to it really.

Wellitwasnicetocatchupwithyouagain,we'llhavetodoitagainsometime,bye.

I'd say so. Imagine how awkward that conversation would be.

I was just, ah, in Sydney for, ah, business. That's right, business, when I, ah, bumped into this young lady, who, ah, helped me go shopping for the rest of the afternoon. That's when I bought you that pretty neckalce, remember? That's all there was to it really.

Wellitwasnicetocatchupwithyouagain,we'llhavetodoitagainsometime,bye.

I bet Mrs. St. Peter was hot in her day.

Normally sermons that Father Gray or Father Geiger say usually just goes in one ear and out the other. However, last Sunday Father Geiger shared an intresting story, and it has stuck with me for almost a week now! I completely agree with it too!



That is a freakin' awesome sermon!

If that's true, my approval rating for God has gone up by .5%. Now it's up to 3.5%.

Normally sermons that Father Gray or Father Geiger say usually just goes in one ear and out the other. However, last Sunday Father Geiger shared an intresting story, and it has stuck with me for almost a week now! I completely agree with it too!



That is a freakin' awesome sermon!
That's a horrible sermon. God should instead say, "Let her enter, and offer her our sincere apologies because our patriarchal religion is one of the main root causes behind the abuses she endured during her time on Earth. Our faith is one of the primary supports for the woman-hating culture which reduces female human beings to a sex class, and which tells men that they are entitled to have sex regardless of the interest of the individuals they are fucking. Our faith helps to rear girls who believe that their worth is defined by their hymens, that they exist to service men, and that sexual autonomy is only for the boys. We create, support, and perpetuate the culture of prostitution. It would be bonkers for me, as God, to punish a mortal human who got fucked over by the culture that I, omnipotent God, decided to create as part of My Plan."

That's a horrible sermon. God should instead say, "Let her enter, and offer her our sincere apologies because our patriarchal religion is one of the main root causes behind the abuses she endured during her time on Earth. Our faith is one of the primary supports for the woman-hating culture which reduces female human beings to a sex class, and which tells men that they are entitled to have sex regardless of the interest of the individuals they are fucking. Our faith helps to rear girls who believe that their worth is defined by their hymens, that they exist to service men, and that sexual autonomy is only for the boys. We create, support, and perpetuate the culture of prostitution. It would be bonkers for me, as God, to punish a mortal human who got fucked over by the culture that I, omnipotent God, decided to create as part of My Plan."

Now that was a good sermon.

She became a prostitute, so she goes to hell.

Her father was negligent and slothfull so he goes to hell too.

I've lied a few times, so I go to hell.

Hell will be overcrowded, I tell ya. But I do hope to hook up with that girl sometimes during eternity.

I disagree with the sermon on multiple points

I disagree with the sermon on multiple points

Those being....?

That's a horrible sermon. God should instead say, "Let her enter, and offer her our sincere apologies because our patriarchal religion is one of the main root causes behind the abuses she endured during her time on Earth. Our faith is one of the primary supports for the woman-hating culture which reduces female human beings to a sex class, and which tells men that they are entitled to have sex regardless of the interest of the individuals they are fucking. Our faith helps to rear girls who believe that their worth is defined by their hymens, that they exist to service men, and that sexual autonomy is only for the boys. We create, support, and perpetuate the culture of prostitution. It would be bonkers for me, as God, to punish a mortal human who got fucked over by the culture that I, omnipotent God, decided to create as part of My Plan."

*seal of approval*

She became a prostitute, so she goes to hell.

Her father was negligent and slothfull so he goes to hell too.

I've lied a few times, so I go to hell.

Hell will be overcrowded, I tell ya. But I do hope to hook up with that girl sometimes during eternity.

Better hope she doesn't die from an STI then.

Those being....?

her sins are her own, her fathers are his own, neither is the direct cause of the other.

she is responsible for her own actions, crappy childhood does not equal license to do whatever you want.

also, I think that doctrinally the sermon is way off and I just don't like it.

her sins are her own, her fathers are his own, neither is the direct cause of the other.

she is responsible for her own actions, crappy childhood does not equal license to do whatever you want.

also, I think that doctrinally the sermon is way off and I just don't like it.

But her becoming a prostitute was caused by her father's unwillingness to spend time with her. She had to seek attention from father figures, it was psychologically encoded in her. So she became a prostitute to fill that psychological need. If the father had spent time with her, she wouldn't have become a prostitute.

But her becoming a prostitute was caused by her father's unwillingness to spend time with her. She had to seek attention from father figures, it was psychologically encoded in her. So she became a prostitute to fill that psychological need. If the father had spent time with her, she wouldn't have become a prostitute.

not true, she didn't have to do anything, she chose to.

I grew up in just about the most horrible environment that most can imagine, I made a lot of mistakes growing up too, but they were my own choices, my own mistakes, I can't blame anyone for them but myself.

You know, if the father had been abusive and had been whoring his daughter out to his drinking buddies, that would be one thing, but your pastor really chose a shitty example.

not true, she didn't have to do anything, she chose to.

I grew up in just about the most horrible environment that most can imagine, I made a lot of mistakes growing up too, but they were my own choices, my own mistakes, I can't blame anyone for them but myself.

Yes, she chose to seek attention from other men because HER FATHER WOULDN'T GIVE HER ANY. I mean, the father could at least set aside thirty minutes of the day to spend with his little girl.

So how is she when she dies? Because.. you know, the dad would be fucking old.

Yes, she chose to seek attention from other men because HER FATHER WOULDN'T GIVE HER ANY. I mean, the father could at least set aside thirty minutes of the day to spend with his little girl.

Who's to say he wasn't mistreated by his parents and that's why he can't spend time with her? And what if they were mistreated too? You know, I remember reading somewhere that everyone is descended from one of 7 women, so really they're responsible for every sin ever commited EVAR. Or maybe their parents' are......*implodes*

I can't help but think that the subtext of this sermon is "you're not responsible for the bad you do because you can always blame it on your parents." I'm sure that's not what the pastor was going for, but that's certainly an implication of the sermon.

I can't help but think that the subtext of this sermon is "you're not responsible for the bad you do because you can always blame it on your parents." I'm sure that's not what the pastor was going for, but that's certainly an implication of the sermon.

You can't blame everything you do on your parents. But if your parents neglect or abuse you, then your certainly can blame specific things on them.

Yes, she chose to seek attention from other men because HER FATHER WOULDN'T GIVE HER ANY. I mean, the father could at least set aside thirty minutes of the day to spend with his little girl.

no, she chose to because she thought it would be a good thing.

just like I chose to use drugs because my parents abused me, because it's easier to deal with being physically, emotionally, and sexually abused when you are a zombie.

Yes, she chose to seek attention from other men because HER FATHER WOULDN'T GIVE HER ANY. I mean, the father could at least set aside thirty minutes of the day to spend with his little girl.

*is reminded of an episode of South Park*

"But I never sexually molested you!"
"WHY DIDN'T YOU? IS IT BECAUSE YOU DON'T LOVE ME?!?!"

You can't blame everything you do on your parents. But if your parents neglect or abuse you, then your certainly can blame specific things on them.
Sorry, but there comes a point in your life when you have to take responsibility for yourself. It's called adulthood.

Sure, I've been affected negatively by the way I was raised, but that doesn't excuse my actions now. I've been an adult for as long as I was a kid--if I were still blaming mom and dad for my current fuckups, well, that would be more than a bit pathetic.

no, she chose to because she thought it would be a good thing.

just like I chose to use drugs because my parents abused me, because it's easier to deal with being physically, emotionally, and sexually abused when you are a zombie.

The point here being is that if your parents neglect or abuse you, you will msot probably lead to a bad life. If your parents didn't neglect or abuse you, the chances of that happening are considerably cut.

The point here being is that if your parents neglect or abuse you, you will msot probably lead to a bad life. If your parents didn't neglect or abuse you, the chances of that happening are considerably cut.

so?

I think my parents were assholes, in fact I know they were (are) but that doesn't mean that I don't choose my own future. If it did life would be depressing and I would just have to die.

The only thing that keeps me alive sometimes is knowing that I can choose to be whatever I want and that they don't have any control over my life now.

The point here being is that if your parents neglect or abuse you, you will msot probably lead to a bad life. If your parents didn't neglect or abuse you, the chances of that happening are considerably cut.

I'll tell you a greater factor in determining how your life turns out--what economic class you're born into. If you're born dirt poor, chances are overwhelming that you'll stay that way. If you're born wealthy, same deal. And for every stratum in between, it's the same story. There are good parents and shitty parents in every layer, and they'll have a marginal effect on how you wind up, but the big factor is where you start out on the economic ladder.

I'll tell you a greater factor in determining how your life turns out--what economic class you're born into. If you're born dirt poor, chances are overwhelming that you'll stay that way. If you're born wealthy, same deal. And for every stratum in between, it's the same story. There are good parents and shitty parents in every layer, and they'll have a marginal effect on how you wind up, but the big factor is where you start out on the economic ladder.

Dude, I'm a democratic socialist, you think I don't realize that? But parents still are determining factor. Even if you're born dirt poor, if you have the most caring. loving parents you will probably turn out better.

You can't blame everything you do on your parents. But if your parents neglect or abuse you, then your certainly can blame specific things on them.

Wrong, if you can blame your parents for being terrible when all one of them did was not shower you with attention then you can blame them for EVERYTHING.

You do realize that people are a product of their enviroment. The father didnt just magically become the way he is. Maybe his mother molested him and he is cold and distant to women as a result. It could be one of a near infinate number of things...likewise, a lot of people who go around killing/torturing/robbing or anything bad have also had a bad childhood. Give me any childhood and I can pick things out that could make them have horrible parents. It doesnt matter if they are poverty stricken or born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

Lets play pass the blame. I am an athiest, but only because my father raised me one. He is an athiest only because his mother raised him one. She is an athiest becuase her husband died and left her with 8 kids to raise. He died because his airplane malfunctioned. It wouldnt have malfunctioned if it didnt suffer wear and tear from WW2. WW2 wouldnt have happened if...you see how this can go?

I guess if you dont have kids, its a free ticket into heaven, eh?

Wrong, if you can blame your parents for being terrible when all one of them did was not shower you with attention then you can blame them for EVERYTHING.

You do realize that people are a product of their enviroment. The father didnt just magically become the way he is. Maybe his mother molested him and he is cold and distant to women as a result. It could be one of a near infinate number of things...likewise, a lot of people who go around killing/torturing/robbing or anything bad have also had a bad childhood. Give me any childhood and I can pick things out that could make them have horrible parents. It doesnt matter if they are poverty stricken or born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

Lets play pass the blame. I am an athiest, but only because my father raised me one. He is an athiest only because his mother raised him one. She is an athiest becuase her husband died and left her with 8 kids to raise. He died because his airplane malfunctioned. It wouldnt have malfunctioned if it didnt suffer wear and tear from WW2. WW2 wouldnt have happened if...you see how this can go?

I guess if you dont have kids, its a free ticket into heaven, eh?

I'm not saying he has to SHOWER her with attention. He just needs to actually spend time with his little girl. I mean, he obviously has the time. All he did was lay around and watch T.V. And I'm not saying you can blame them for everything if they neglect or abuse you. I'm saying you can blame them for SPECIFIC things such as becoming a prostitute if your father doesn't give you enough attention, so therefore you had to seek attention from men in some other way.

I'm not saying he has to SHOWER her with attention. He just needs to actually spend time with his little girl. I mean, he obviously has the time. All he did was lay around and watch T.V. And I'm not saying you can blame them for everything if they neglect or abuse you. I'm saying you can blame them for SPECIFIC things such as becoming a prostitute if your father doesn't give you enough attention, so therefore you had to seek attention from men in some other way.

I think you will change your mind when you get older.

There's no denying parents are a factor in how you turn out. But so does your friends, your teachers, what you read and a myriad of other things. So blaming the parents if a kid turn bad is missing a lot.

But that sermon ignore a lot of things in the christian dogma. Like: was the girl sorry for her life of prostitution and did she ask forgivness? Was she a bad person who didn't care for others or is her only sin being her career choice?No, the pastor hinges all the responsibilities on how her father behaved while she was growing up.

And what of her mother, I may ask? Is the salvation of your soul determined by only what your father does? And what of God changing his stance and making exception? Is that truly the behavior to expect from an all-knowing deity? I would hate to learn that my eternal salvation depends on which side of the bed the Almighty woke up this morning.

No, I agree with those who say this is a bad sermon.

So what if her dad had given her too much attention? Or the wrong kind of attention - might cause her to become stuck up and condescending, or plain wierd...Too many children in this day and age manage to get exactly what they want, and as a result, many have behavioural problems later on in life.
You have to learn how to fend for yourself to a certain extent, however bad your parents seem!

I know of women that get showered with attention from both parents in equal measure and still become prostitutes.
You choose your own path and are accountable for your own actions.

You can't just blame it on your dad or Mum...if it's something hereditary like...say a high or low IQ, or Aspergers syndrome, short stature, you know genetic defects or the like. Sure, blame them or family member that past it on to you, then move on, get over it and get on with your life.
I have a high IQ, Aspergers syndrome (a form of high-functioning Autism), Dyslexia, Dyspraxia, Dyscalculia. I'm short in stature and large in fat.
Some of this is my fault, some of it is genetically passed down to me by my parents. Okay... accepted that, moving on.

Sure you're surrondings can affect you, so can YOU. My fiancé grew up around MORONS for his entire life, and you know what? He likes classical, loves to read, great at science and is very intelligent. He worked for it on his own.
You don't NEED to stay dirt poor if you're born dirt poor, I know rich people that got there from being poor and working hard.
Screw your surrondings, it's YOU that affects it. I love nature around me, I don't say that the nature around me is responsible for a certain part of my personality. I grew up in a place where I've gotten attacked on numerous occassions and had paedophiles interested in me. I don't care! I'm moving out to a better place when I can and I'm going to work my way out of it. I don't blame my mum. Not her fault she did her best to provide for me. I don't blame my dad he was looking out for himself and it wasn't meant to be.
I don't blame myself for what life has dealt me right now either...because you know what? I'm getting where I want to be...I've got people interested in my art, I've got places I'm looking for to get jobs, I'm working myself...and only I can get to where I want to be. Mum can't hand it to me, Tim can't get it for me, and my Dad isn't involved.

This woman chose her path. Her dad didn't. Her actions, so she gets blame and praise for them. He should have probably paid attention to her, but those are his actions. His business.

Bad Sermon.

The father has the responsibility of raising the child and do right by her. The father failed at that job, so yes, he is to be held accountable.

But so is she ...

Both his AND her actions caused this

The problem with this line of thinking is that it can be reduced to obsurdity.

Why did the girl become a hooker? Her father was distant, it's HIS fault.

Well, why was he distant? Well maybe his parents were unavailable, rendering him unable to have substantial parental relationships.

Why were his parents unavailable? Well maybe he's the right age and his father died in World War 2.

And we all know whose fault that war was...but then why was that? And what about his parent's parents?

It becomes absurd. People are responsible for their own choices.

I grew up in just about the most horrible environment that most can imagine, I made a lot of mistakes growing up too, but they were my own choices, my own mistakes, I can't blame anyone for them but myself.
Well, you could blame the Jews.
Everyone does, even Hollywood movie stars so it must be ok.

Well, you could blame the Jews.
Everyone does, even Hollywood movie stars so it must be ok.

Teh J00s! did it!

woah woah woah! back up a minute people!

obviously people are responsible for their own actions (unless tricked or forced), but had her Father looked after her properly, she wouldn't have gone the way she did. You can't ALWAYS blame the individual when someone else, while they may not be directly responsible, is partly to blame
Prove it. Prove that, had the father been a good father, she unquestionably would not have become a prostitute. And if he had been a good father, would it still be his fault that she became one? And if he was still a bad father, but she became a successful woman, is that the fathers doing too?

Let's have a look at the choice: be isolated with a drunk Father who doesn't seem to give a shit about you, or seek attention from other men. Not the best choise in the world is it?
Not the best choice, but still a choice. Additionally, just because daddy didn't love you enough does NOT close off literally hundreds of other options. Daddys love is not a requirement to educate yourself or find a good job.

That's a horrible sermon. God should instead say, "Let her enter, and offer her our sincere apologies because our patriarchal religion is one of the main root causes behind the abuses she endured during her time on Earth. Our faith is one of the primary supports for the woman-hating culture which reduces female human beings to a sex class, and which tells men that they are entitled to have sex regardless of the interest of the individuals they are fucking. Our faith helps to rear girls who believe that their worth is defined by their hymens, that they exist to service men, and that sexual autonomy is only for the boys. We create, support, and perpetuate the culture of prostitution. It would be bonkers for me, as God, to punish a mortal human who got fucked over by the culture that I, omnipotent God, decided to create as part of My Plan."
*applause*

But her becoming a prostitute was caused by her father's unwillingness to spend time with her. She had to seek attention from father figures, it was psychologically encoded in her. So she became a prostitute to fill that psychological need. If the father had spent time with her, she wouldn't have become a prostitute.Again, prove it. You have NO way of proving that she would not have become a prostitute. Maybe something else was going on. Maybe the girl just liked to fuck.

You can't blame everything you do on your parents. But if your parents neglect or abuse you, then your certainly can blame specific things on them.You can blame them for the abuse. You cannot blame them for your choices.

I'll tell you a greater factor in determining how your life turns out--what economic class you're born into. If you're born dirt poor, chances are overwhelming that you'll stay that way. If you're born wealthy, same deal. And for every stratum in between, it's the same story. There are good parents and shitty parents in every layer, and they'll have a marginal effect on how you wind up, but the big factor is where you start out on the economic ladder.
One of the most depressing things I've ever been told was when I was in my final year of my business degree. We had some big ceo cow come to give us a pep talk. The usual "world is your oyster, you're the future business leaders of tomorrow bs", or so we thought.
She decided instead to kick us in the guts. She told us that at best we'd be 10% better off than our parents. So if we wanted to know our station in life, look at our parents and go 10% from there. So if your parents are teachers, that's what you'll be (funnily enough I am, but am earning more than both of them together), if your parent(s) are managers, so you'll be. etc etc.
She also then proceeded to inform us that the whole big OE all kiwis dream about (OE = overseas experience: practically a rite of passage for NZ'ers to bum their way around the world for a couple of years before returning home) is a lie and only a few of us would actually do this (guess I must be one of the lucky ones).

Being barely 20 at the time and in a lecture hall of 200+ students along with all our professors, I felt too intimidated to stand up and ask her where she got off with destroying our dreams and aspirations.
Let alone the inherrent self-fulfillment that comes from pre-deciding who to hire based solely on what their parents do. If you only hire people for management positions whose parents have been managers then of course you'll 'prove' that only children of managers become managers themselves.

Really wish I had a bit more mettle back then.

One of the most depressing things I've ever been told was when I was in my final year of my business degree. We had some big ceo cow come to give us a pep talk. The usual "world is your oyster, you're the future business leaders of tomorrow bs", or so we thought.
She decided instead to kick us in the guts. She told us that at best we'd be 10% better off than our parents. So if we wanted to know our station in life, look at our parents and go 10% from there. So if your parents are teachers, that's what you'll be (funnily enough I am, but am earning more than both of them together), if your parent(s) are managers, so you'll be. etc etc.
She also then proceeded to inform us that the whole big OE all kiwis dream about (OE = overseas experience: practically a rite of passage for NZ'ers to bum their way around the world for a couple of years before returning home) is a lie and only a few of us would actually do this (guess I must be one of the lucky ones).

Being barely 20 at the time and in a lecture hall of 200+ students along with all our professors, I felt too intimidated to stand up and ask her where she got off with destroying our dreams and aspirations.
Let alone the inherrent self-fulfillment that comes from pre-deciding who to hire based solely on what their parents do. If you only hire people for management positions whose parents have been managers then of course you'll 'prove' that only children of managers become managers themselves.

Really wish I had a bit more mettle back then.

That's really depressing. Like this woman who told us that you could tell how good a child was at P.E. ... yeah, right. Me and my family all wanted to rip her verbally to shreds for that.

I hate people like that.

That's really depressing. Like this woman who told us that you could tell how good a child was at P.E. ... yeah, right. Me and my family all wanted to rip her verbally to shreds for that.

I hate people like that.
Me too. I don't particularly care whether it's true or not. I figure it's just going to be something one will find/work out on one's own later in life.
Until then, let us have our dreams.

of course it was the neglectful father's fault. if he had been paying attention he would have noticed that his wife was running a call service out of the garage and had all the kids working for her.

Me too. I don't particularly care whether it's true or not. I figure it's just going to be something one will find/work out on one's own later in life.
Until then, let us have our dreams.

Yeah, personally I'm happy being a suedo-professional artist..my mother wasn't, my grandmother wasn't, my father DEFINATELY isn't.

You have a little girl, and her father. Everyday the little girl would come home from school, and the father would be on the couch watching TV and drinking. The girl would seek attention from her father, but her father would always tell her to go play outside. This led the girl to go down the path of prositution and seeking attention from other men and in other ways. She dies and appears at the gates. St. Peter says "You cannot enter, you are a Prositute." However God said "Let her enter, however, when her dad gets here, hold him responsible."


CLEARLY it is Jesus' fault. Jesus turned the water into wine, and so Dad, biblically speaking, is on the side of the angels when he is drinking.

Of course, Jesus wouldn't have turned out to be an enabler of drunks if not for HIS dad. :rolleyes:

The father in this story DOES need to be held responsible for his own actions (the neglect), but certainly not for the girl's. There are plenty of other ways to get attention that do not involve prostitution. She made choices, and (if one believes those choices to be evil... and as far as prostitiution goes, I don't) she has to pay for them.

The girl would seek attention from her father, but her father would always tell her to go play outside. This led the girl to go down the path of prositution

Does anyone else find this highly amusing? Becoming a prostitute because you were told to play outside? :D

Does anyone else find this highly amusing? Becoming a prostitute because you were told to play outside? :D

Like becoming a pornstar because you were told to go play with your ball.

All the way to Adam, and then to God. God made her whore herself. *nod*

Omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient ,... god's responsibility all the way.

Omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient ,... god's responsibility all the way.

Well, god did feel responsible, he let her into heaven after all... ;)

Normally sermons that Father Gray or Father Geiger say usually just goes in one ear and out the other. However, last Sunday Father Geiger shared an intresting story, and it has stuck with me for almost a week now! I completely agree with it too!



That is a freakin' awesome sermon!

That story by itself makes for a poor sermon. It does make a good point about the accountability of parents for the way they bring up their children, but a good sermon would also clarify that we are still all responsible for our own actions even though God is ultimately merciful and takes into account our circumstances.

Was that story the entirity of the sermon or did Father Geiger have more to say about it?

Christianity and Free Will are not compatible.

Their:
God is omniscient. He knows everything that has, is, and will be. Therefore, he knows what we're gonna do. In turn, although we don't know, there is the ending that he has already seen that will occur.

We in turn:
Have local free will, or at least we believe that far. We make what decisions we will - but don't, in the long run, get to pick the ending.

Our novels always end with us waking up.

Oh. It was just a dream.

My turn to call *Bull SH-IT*
Yes:
God does Know everything that will happen.

BUT:
God does not act on this knowledge to change a persons actions.
He could. He chooses not to. He simply tells us "A is right and B is wrong".
Do A and I will Reward you. Do B and I will punish you; (much like we do our own children).


SO:
We DO have "Local" Free will. We choose our actions (A or B as God knew we would).

SO:
We are responsible for our own choice of actions and God will hold us accountable.
There is a Day of Judgment comming. :eek:

My turn to call *Bull SH-IT*
Yes:
God does Know everything that will happen.

BUT:
God does not act on this knowledge to change a persons actions.
He could. He chooses not to. He simply tells us "A is right and B is wrong".
Do A and I will Reward you. Do B and I will punish you; (much like we do our own children).


SO:
We DO have "Local" Free will. We choose our actions (A or B as God knew we would).

SO:
We are responsible for our own choice of actions and God will hold us accountable.
There is a Day of Judgment comming. :eek:

If he knew what would happen and he created the universe, he created it to happen, therefore it's all his fault. It's very simple, really. I don't get how people don't understand this.

The father has the responsibility of raising the child and do right by her. The father failed at that job, so yes, he is to be held accountable.

Yeah, I agree with the other guy. Regardless of how bad her father was, nobody held a gun to her head and forced her into prostitution, it was her choice to be affected negatively by her father's neglect and delve into unacceptable practices. So sayeth the Atheist... heh

The father has the responsibility of raising the child and do right by her. The father failed at that job, so yes, he is to be held accountable.

Yeah, I agree with the other guy. Regardless of how bad her father was, nobody held a gun to her head and forced her into prostitution, it was her choice to be affected negatively by her father's neglect and delve into unacceptable practices. So sayeth the Atheist... heh