NationStates Jolt Archive


Another revealing look at how stupidly this admin ran the war...

PsychoticDan
03-10-2006, 21:38
An outake from an outake of Woodward's new book, "A State of Denial."

“Thank you very much,” Bush said when Garner was done. National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice started talking about something else, so Garner figured he was dismissed. As he started to walk out of the room, the president caught his eye.

“Kick ass, Jay,” Bush said.

Garner waited for Rumsfeld outside. Soon, Bush and Rice came out and walked three or four steps past Garner. Suddenly Bush turned back.

“Hey, if you have any problem with that governor down in Florida, just let me know,” he said.

Shortly after the invasion, while Garner was in Kuwait waiting to move into Iraq, Rumsfeld chose L. Paul “Jerry” Bremer, a 61-year-old terrorism expert and protégé of Henry Kissinger, to effectively replace Garner, but as a presidential envoy. On Garner’s first day in Iraq, April 22, he signed on to an agreement to set up an interim Iraqi advisory group, made up of prominent Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis, many of them expatriates, to put an Iraqi face on the postwar occupation government. Two days later, Rumsfeld called to tell him Bremer was coming over, and said he wanted Garner to stay on as well.

“It doesn’t work that way,” Garner said. “You can’t have the guy who used to be in charge and the guy who’s now in charge there, because you divide the loyalties of the people. So the best thing for me is just to step out of here.”

Rumsfeld convinced Garner to stay temporarily, and the retired general and Bremer clashed, as Bremer quickly unveiled a plan to ban as many as 50,000 members of Saddam Hussein’s Baath Party from government employment.

“Hell,” Garner told him, “you won’t be able to run anything if you go this deep.”

The next day, Bremer revealed a second draft order, disbanding the Iraqi ministries of Defense and Interior, the entire Iraqi military, and all of Saddam’s bodyguard and special paramilitary organizations. Garner was stunned. The de-Baathification order was dumb, but this was a disaster.

“We have always made plans to bring the army back,” he insisted. This new plan was just coming out of the blue, subverting months of work.

“Well, the plans have changed,” Bremer replied.

Bremer then met with the Iraqi advisory group Garner had agreed to work with. “One thing you need to realize is you’re not the government,” he told them. “We are. And we’re in charge.”

The next day, the group went home.

Garner came back to the U.S. in June and basically hid out for a couple of weeks, not wanting to see anyone at the Pentagon or talk about his experience in Iraq. Finally, on June 18, 2003, alone with Rumsfeld around the small table in the secretary’s office, Garner felt he had an obligation to state the depths of his concerns.

“We’ve made three tragic decisions,” Garner said.

“Really?” Rumsfeld said.

“Three terrible mistakes,” Garner said. He cited the extent of the de-Baathification, getting rid of the army, and summarily dumping the Iraqi leadership group. Disbanding the military had been the biggest mistake. Now there were hundreds of thousands of disorganized, unemployed, armed Iraqis running around. Garner made his final point: “There’s still time to rectify this. There’s still time to turn it around.”

Rumsfeld looked at Garner for a moment with his take-no-prisoners gaze. “Well,” he said, “I don’t think there is anything we can do, because we are where we are.”


Well worth the read. Really shows you how stupid and incompetent and arrogant this administration is. It's not like they just make stupid, incompetent decisions, they make stupid incompetent decisions in the face of better advice from people who know better.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15075326/site/newsweek/

You might throw up a little in your mouth.
Rhaomi
03-10-2006, 21:56
It's nothing but arrogance and a sense of invincibility. What I want to know is: how did we expect to be greeted by the Iraqis as liberators when we were planning to act as conquerors?
PsychoticDan
03-10-2006, 22:00
It's nothing but arrogance and a sense of invincibility. What I want to know is: how did we expect to be greeted by the Iraqis as liberators when we were planning to act as conquerors?

Because of fruit bowls. :)

I told Rumsfeld that I understood the number of attacks was going up.

“That’s probably true,” he said. “It is also probably true that our data’s better, and we’re categorizing more things as attacks. A random round can be an attack and all the way up to killing 50 people someplace. So you’ve got a whole fruit bowl of different things—a banana and an apple and an orange.”

I was speechless. Even with the loosest and most careless use of language and analogy, I did not understand how the secretary of defense would compare insurgent attacks to a “fruit bowl,” a metaphor that stripped them of all urgency and emotion. The official categories in the classified reports that Rumsfeld regularly received were the lethal IEDs, standoff attacks with mortars, and close-engagements such as ambushes—as far from bananas, apples and oranges as possible.


Fruitbowls. :)
Zilam
03-10-2006, 22:03
It's nothing but arrogance and a sense of invincibility. What I want to know is: how did we expect to be greeted by the Iraqis as liberators when we were planning to act as conquerors?

Because we are America, the bright light of freedom in a world of opression...


Wow...I need to go brush my teeth now, with that pile of bullshit i just spewed out of my mouth.
Kyronea
03-10-2006, 22:04
An outake from an outake of Woodward's new book, "A State of Denial."


Well worth the read. Really shows you how stupid and incompetent and arrogant this administration is. It's not like they just make stupid, incompetent decisions, they make stupid incompetent decisions in the face of better advice from people who know better.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15075326/site/newsweek/

You might throw up a little in your mouth.

Thank you, Dan, for proving once again what we already knew. Now maybe certain Bushiveks will actually listen for once.
PsychoticDan
04-10-2006, 00:57
The most damining part of it all. It seems he admits it's a failure but is unwilling to take responsibility for hi own, well documented failures - and Bush is unwilling to hold him accountable. This juvenile behavior is a travesty for our nation and the world.

“Are you optimistic?” I asked.

Rumsfeld looked through me and continued. Three of his aides who were sitting with us at the table in his office could not help but register surprise as Rumsfeld plowed on without answering.

“We’re fighting the first war in history in the new century,” he continued, “and with all these new realities, with an industrial-age organization in an environment that has not adapted and adjusted, a public environment that has not adapted and adjusted.”

At the end of the second of two interviews, I quoted former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara: “Any military commander who is honest with you will say he’s made mistakes that have cost lives.”

“Um hmm,” Rumsfeld said.

“Is that correct?”

“I don’t know. I suppose that a military commander ...”

“Which you are,” I interrupted.

“No I’m not,” the secretary of defense said.

“Yes, sir,” I said.

“No, no. Well … ”

“Yes. Yes,” I said, raising my hand in the air and ticking off the hierarchy. “It’s commander in chief, secretary of defense, combatant commander.”

“I can see a military commander in a uniform who is engaged in a conflict having to make decisions that result in people living or dying and that that would be a truth. And certainly if you go up the chain to the civilian side to the president and to me, you could by indirection, two or three steps removed, make the case.”

Indirection? Two or three steps removed? It was inexplicable. Rumsfeld had spent so much time insisting on the chain of command. He was in control—not the Joint Chiefs, not the uniformed military, not the National Security Council or the NSC staff, not the critics or the opiners. How could he not see his role and responsibility?

I could think of nothing more to say.
Gurguvungunit
04-10-2006, 01:05
Oh, yes. Let's have another 'Bush is an effing idiot' thread. Because we haven't seen enough of them.

Yeah, I know. I'm not making an argument, nor am I really contributing anything. I suppose you could criticise me for that, but honestly? It's all getting a tad repetetive. Seriously, when do we get tired of trumpeting new versions of 'we were right, Bush is wrong/stupid/an evil Republican bastard/scum'?

*steps out*
The Nazz
04-10-2006, 01:11
Oh, yes. Let's have another 'Bush is an effing idiot' thread. Because we haven't seen enough of them.

Yeah, I know. I'm not making an argument, nor am I really contributing anything. I suppose you could criticise me for that, but honestly? It's all getting a tad repetetive. Seriously, when do we get tired of trumpeting new versions of 'we were right, Bush is wrong/stupid/an evil Republican bastard/scum'?

*steps out*

When the fuckers are gone, or in jail, or both, and not one second before then. Sorry, but that's how it's got to roll.
PsychoticDan
04-10-2006, 01:22
When the fuckers are gone, or in jail, or both, and not one second before then. Sorry, but that's how it's got to roll.

Exactly. As long as that team occupies the Oval Office and continues to do irreperable harm to my country and teh rest of the world I will continue to point out his incompetence. The only thing I thank him for is making it so easy.
R0cka
04-10-2006, 01:23
An outake from an outake of Woodward's new book, "A State of Denial."

Well worth the read. Really shows you how stupid and incompetent and arrogant this administration is. It's not like they just make stupid, incompetent decisions, they make stupid incompetent decisions in the face of better advice from people who know better.

You read this book?

Does it mention the 87 billion?
Congo--Kinshasa
04-10-2006, 01:50
Now maybe certain Bushiveks will actually listen for once.

You set your expectations way too high. ;)
PsychoticDan
04-10-2006, 17:13
You read this book?

Does it mention the 87 billion?

If you're talking about all that missing money, I'm not sure but I would imagine it would have to.