NationStates Jolt Archive

This is not simply a toned down version of the “Revolution” thread, though it has its inspiration in that as well as the short-lived “Why do we protest” thread which was going quite well originally. Anyway, I created this thread for the purpose of discussing what are the practical and necessary limits of an American public who finds itself frightened by recent developments in our political climate.

First, let me say that I see little point in measures such as “protest”. There are no battles won when we are segregated off too a little corner where are voices are heard by none other than ourselves. We fear that this state is becoming totalitarian, so how do we respond? Are we obedient even in our civil disobedience!? Such makes no sense to me. Why are we responding to a government that seizes our freedoms by learning to live with reduced ones?

The only course is to defy the state, we cannot play by their rules in the hope that they will begin to play by ours. We owe nothing to the collective when the collective is too foolish to see what is in front of its own eyes, and will keep paying up to the state in the hope that the state will respond with equal generosity. However, do we need to dismantle the entire state to do it? And if we don't where do we stop?

The only question is then, what is necessary, what is prudent? Do we dare disturb the universe? And if we do, how far can/will we take it? Is the trend such that we can destroy it without playing with the most desperate measures?

Also; Thoreau's “Civil Disobedience” http://www.vcu.edu/engweb/transcendentalism/authors/thoreau/civil/

Options? Not be stupid and be overreacting dolts. Work within the system, most certain way to achieve long term success. If you resort to violence and harming the system, you stand a tremendous chance of becoming what you hate.

1) Vitality (life and having needs met) and freedom are necessary
2) Yes
3) Pretty far... I hope
4) NO. Overthrows have always been messy... :(

Options? Work within the system, most certain way to achieve long term success.

Forgive me for not being able to think of a single historical reference where this worked. Even the Womens movement worked outside of the system and thats to say nothing of the 1950's black movements, the abolishment of slavery, or even colonies of America who didnt want to be. Even the Cherokee, they made a language, a constitution, a permanent settlement, and even sent ambassadors in an attempt for self-determination, that went well.

Yes! This is the kind of energy we need to get our voices heard! We need more people like you, willing to take more action than most to get one up to the government!

Options? Not be stupid and be overreacting dolts. Work within the system, most certain way to achieve long term success. If you resort to violence and harming the system, you stand a tremendous chance of becoming what you hate.
History shows us this quite aptly.

Yes! This is the kind of energy we need to get our voices heard! We need more people like you, willing to more action than most to get one up to the government!

Thank you. At this point I think even sending out an Army of spray-painters would be a step up from our actions now.

History shows us this quite aptly.

Provide a single example of substantial social change through working within the system.

Provide a single example of substantial social change through working within the system.

Let's see...universal sufferage, abolition of prohibition, civil rights movement and my soon to be successful campaign to lower the drinking age.

Forgive me for not being able to think of a single historical reference where this worked. Even the Womens movement worked outside of the system and thats to say nothing of the 1950's black movements, the abolishment of slavery.

All of these had strong in-system elements. Newspapers, protests, elections, candidates, Constitutional amendments, court cases. In one of them, they even became an integrated part of the system, and those left out of the system resorted to violence, and were thoroughly defeated, they're ideals crushed.

Options? Not be stupid and be overreacting dolts. Work within the system, most certain way to achieve long term success. If you resort to violence and harming the system, you stand a tremendous chance of becoming what you hate.

Explain Ghandi.

Let's see...universal sufferage,

Not really. Universal suffrage involved civil disobedience on the part of women and African Americans, and war for African Americans; hardly working within the system.

abolition of prohibition,

Hardly a substantial social change.

civil rights movement

Fought on the streets, involved both violence and civil disobedience. Not working within the system.

Provide a single example of substantial social change through working within the system.
I was speaking about the bit on violence.