NationStates Jolt Archive

Who do you think has the most effective economy, based on your own criteria? Does the US win for a much higher GDP per capita, or do you prefer France's social programmes? Poll coming.

I'd rather be happy and carefree than rich anyday.

I'll take France actually, thanks.

the french economy.

Because america is governed by a retard.

Under clinton?
America! Wooooo

JFK?
WOoooo

Roosevelt?
WOOOOO

Retard?
er...no

The US economy by a mile. France is not capable of providing enough jobs for its people, which means they get all the socioeconomic stresses that high unemployment brings to their economy; weak growth and restrictive laws further reduce opportunity and make it increasingly difficult for people to succeed or for their welfare programs to function efficiently enough to accomodate people.

The one thing France got right was gettin over 80% of its power from nuclear plants...other than that, they've made a lot of mistakes.

Who do you think has the most effective economy, based on your own criteria? Does the US win for a much higher GDP per capita, or do you prefer France's social programmes? Poll coming.

France, just to spite you.

Really, you should include a Myrth/Pancakes/Etc choice, because a lot of people enjoy voting in polls but some of them don't really care all that much about anyone's opinion on the French economy versus the US economy. I myself only think about such things when I'm having trouble sleeping.

France.

The US economy by a mile. France is not capable of providing enough jobs for its people, which means they get all the socioeconomic stresses that high unemployment brings to their economy; weak growth and restrictive laws further reduce opportunity and make it increasingly difficult for people to succeed or for their welfare programs to function efficiently enough to accomodate people.

The one thing France got right was gettin over 80% of its power from nuclear plants...other than that, they've made a lot of mistakes.

I think I'm going to have to agree with Vetalia.

Hahahahahaha. 50% of people voted for the French economy.

I guess that 20% unemployment, terrible GDP growth, a suffocatingly huge public sector and little if any economic freedom is a major draw for people around here...

Hahahahahaha. 50% of people voted for the French economy.

I guess that 20% unemployment, terrible GDP growth, a suffocatingly huge public sector and little if any economic freedom is a major draw for people around here...

Or they just did it to spite the OP?

Maybe... but he seemed pretty ambivalent towards the whole issue.

Hahahahahaha. 50% of people voted for the French economy.

I guess that 20% unemployment, terrible GDP growth, a suffocatingly huge public sector and little if any economic freedom is a major draw for people around here...

that has to be the most ignorant post ever.

what 'economic freedom' do americans have that social democratic european states don't? 5 mobile phone networks instead of 3?

and why are we using GDP as a measure, surely GNP is more appropriate here?

The US economy by a mile. France is not capable of providing enough jobs for its people, which means they get all the socioeconomic stresses that high unemployment brings to their economy; weak growth and restrictive laws further reduce opportunity and make it increasingly difficult for people to succeed or for their welfare programs to function efficiently enough to accomodate people.

The one thing France got right was gettin over 80% of its power from nuclear plants...other than that, they've made a lot of mistakes.

Quoted for agreement.

I also find the French economic nationalism quite inefficient and irresponsible. Refusing to allow Pepsi to even consider buying Danone International because it's a "strategic national industry" is almost comical.

Hahahahahaha. 50% of people voted for the French economy.

I guess that 20% unemployment, terrible GDP growth, a suffocatingly huge public sector and little if any economic freedom is a major draw for people around here...

The fact that I'm happy living in France, and wouldn't move to the US even if someone paid me to, must be because I enjoy living in poverty, being crushed daily by a "suffocatingly huge public sector", and delight in my "lack" of economic freedoms.

The fact that immigrants are pouring steadily into the country must be for the same reason. They desperately yearn for a hopeless life.

Or maybe you've never lived here and you have no idea what you're talking about. Or... wait!... could it be that we have a higher life expectancy, better health care, more social rights, less violence, more political rights, a better education system, a high rate of foreign investment and an overall more pleasant lifestyle?

Quoted for agreement.

I also find the French economic nationalism quite inefficient and irresponsible. Refusing to allow Pepsi to even consider buying Danone International because it's a "strategic national industry" is almost comical.

and what happened when a Dubai firm who operate ports all around the world wanted to buy US ports?

Or when African banana growers wanted into US markets.

Or lumber. Or european phone manufacturers.

there are more tariffs and resrictions on business in the US than most EU states

that has to be the most ignorant post ever.

what 'economic freedom' do americans have that social democratic european states don't? 5 mobile phone networks instead of 3?

Verizon, Cingular, Spring, T-Mobile, Virgin USA, Alltell, AT&T Wireless, Nextel? That seems to be more than three, unless my ability to count has gone straight to hell.

and why are we using GDP as a measure, surely GNP is more appropriate here?

Any economist will tell you the flaws of GNP as a measure of anything.

French does not hide unemployed people in the army, they feed their poor's.
America sales guns to these people...

Yes free enterprise is great.

I vote France because French are stupid but with a future.
I do not vote for a country with no future.

and what happened when a Dubai firm who operate ports all around the world wanted to buy US ports?

Or when African banana growers wanted into US markets.

Or lumber. Or european phone manufacturers.

there are more tariffs and resrictions on business in the US than most EU states

We're talking about France, not the EU in general.

I am an equal critic of such actions of economic nationalism in the US as well, but France has it's case of it far worse.

Verizon, Cingular, Spring, T-Mobile, Virgin USA, Alltell, AT&T Wireless, Nextel? That seems to be more than three, unless my ability to count has gone straight to hell..

i meant the other way round. and you clearly ignored my point.



Any economist will tell you the flaws of GNP as a measure of anything.

im an economist and im pointing out the flaws of GDP as well.

French does not hide unemployed people in the army, they feed their poor's.
America sales guns to these people...

Yes free enterprise is great.

I vote France because French are stupid but with a future.
I do not vote for a country with no future.

Eh, wha?

Who do you think has the most effective economy, based on your own criteria? Does the US win for a much higher GDP per capita, or do you prefer France's social programmes? Poll coming.Who do you think took more damage during WWI and WWII and who had the opportunity to fill the economic vacuum afterwards? Who falsely assumes France isn't a conservative country?

We're talking about France, not the EU in general.

I am an equal critic of such actions of economic nationalism in the US as well, but France has it's case of it far worse.

fair enough on the first point.

i disagree on the second. the enterprise economy in france is as cutting edge and innovitave as that seen anywhere else.

thats not where the structural problems in france are, and the french are willing to put up with those issues for various reasons.

that has to be the most ignorant post ever.

what 'economic freedom' do americans have that social democratic european states don't? 5 mobile phone networks instead of 3?

and why are we using GDP as a measure, surely GNP is more appropriate here?

THAT has to be the most ignorant post ever.

According to the Index of Economic Freedom (http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/index.cfm), the U.S. checks in at #9 on economic freedom, while France is a mediocre 44.

The differences you ask for?

-Try mostly free trade and minimal tariffs(except w/China) for the U.S., vs. a severe protectionist trade policy and widespread tariffs for France.

-the unemployment rate has been covered.

-top income tax rate? U.S. = 35% France= 48.1%

-the U.S. government consumes 15.4% of their GDP. France's government consumes 23.7%. This figure represents just what it costs to run the government.

-government expenditures constitute 36% of the U.S. GDP. That huge ass military still comes cheaper than the 54.4% France spends on their social programmes.

-because of these and other factors, France is a YEARLY violator of the EU Stability and Growth Pact

http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/index.cfm

Who falsely assumes France isn't a conservative country?

Indeed. A lot of people in the US seem to believe France is "socialist" - extremely ironic, given that we have a right-wing government.


the enterprise economy in france is as cutting edge and innovitave as that seen anywhere else.


Indeed.


thats not where the structural problems in france are, and the french are willing to put up with those issues for various reasons.

Quite so. We have the sixth most powerful economy in the world, and most of us really don't care about bringing it higher. France is a rich country, which combines a powerful economy with decent levels of social rights, remaining competitive on the international market and drawing in high levels of foreign investment. The balance gives us a better overall standard of living than countries with economies deemed more powerful. I wouldn't want to live in the UK (despite being half-British and visiting there often), the US or Japan; the only country "above" France I would even vaguely consider living in would be Germany.

The people of France have repeatedly indicated they don't want anyone mucking up le modèle social français. We're the ones who live with it, and it suits us fine. Other people may be happy living in the US or the UK with those countries' socio-economic systems; good for them. Trying to dictate to us what we should do with our economy is undemocratic, and the height of ignorance.

That huge ass military still comes cheaper than the 54.4% France spends on their social programmes.


Now see, I don't view that as a bad thing. I'd much rather see my government spend my tax money on helping people less fortunate than me, rather than pump it into a bloated military and blow up innocent civilians in foreign countries.

I'm weird that way...

Or maybe you've never lived here and you have no idea what you're talking about. Or... wait!... could it be that we have a higher life expectancy, better health care, more social rights, less violence, more political rights, a better education system, a high rate of foreign investment and an overall more pleasant lifestyle?

May I ask what people in France think about all the jobseeking foreign immigrants and Jean-Marie Le Pen in comparison to Jack Chirac?

We never hear the views of the avarage French person just what the media tell us.

Now see, I don't view that as a bad thing. I'd much rather see my government spend my tax money on helping people less fortunate than me, rather than pump it into a bloated military and blow up innocent civilians in foreign countries.

I'm weird that way...

Nice way to go off topic and interject your anti-american sentiment. It's quite obvious you are playing the 'homer' role, but my point was, that even with that enormous military, the U.S. government still spends almost 20% less of their GDP than the French government does.

snip

wow, you quoted a neo liberal think tank.

the french choose to pay more tax for the best heathcare system in the world.

explain to me what 'economic freedoms' you have they dont? seriously.

May I ask what people in France think about all the jobseeking foreign immigrants and Jean-Marie Le Pen in comparison to Jack Chirac?

We never hear the views of the avarage French person just what the media tell us.

I can't speak for all French people, obviously. Sadly, France hasn't avoided the rise in extreme right-wing, xenophobic feelings that have swept through many European countries these past few years. Le Pen is popular with a segment of the population; he's a nasty little populist who plays on people's fears, and on the need of idiots to hear simplistic rhetoric.

On the other hand, in 2002 when Le Pen did well in the presidential elections, hundreds of thousands of people - myself included - took to the street in a peaceful march to state firmly we opposed his rhetoric of hate.

Immigration is a complex issue, so views on the topic are very varied, covering the entire spectrum.


Nice way to go off topic and interject your anti-american sentiment.

If you knew me at all, you'd know how silly that accusation is.

Only the simple-minded equate criticism of Bush with "anti-Americanism". If the difference between the two eludes you, I'd be glad to elaborate.


my point was, that even with that enormous military, the U.S. government still spends almost 20% less of their GDP than the French government does.

Yes, your point was quite clear. You consider that a good thing. I disagree.


the french choose to pay more tax for the best heathcare system in the world.

Indeed. It's called democracy, and not wanting our quality of life lowered.

wow, you quoted a neo liberal think tank.

the french choose to pay more tax for the best heathcare system in the world.

explain to me what 'economic freedoms' you have they dont? seriously.


I already did.

And you ignored it by: 1) attacking my source; which conducts research and provides statistics and is internationally recognized, while you provide no evidence other than your 'Go France!' pom poms.

2) deflecting the issue by saying you choose to pay more tax. Good for you. Now, if your healthy neighbor told the government 'no thanks, I'll keep my money, I'm pretty healthy', do you think they would let him? No.

If you knew me at all, you'd know how silly that accusation is.
Only the simple-minded equate criticism of Bush with "anti-Americanism". If the difference between the two eludes you, I'd be glad to elaborate.

Yes, your point was quite clear. You consider that a good thing. I disagree.


1. Bush was never mentioned. Hell, I can't stand Bush. But you just stated that the US blew up innocent civilians. THAT is anti-American sentiment. I can assure you, the US military existed long before Shrub.

2. So, you think the government taking 20% more of the GDP to be good? Then we COMPLETELY disagree. I was merely using the military and health care as examples of what the respective governments spend most on. I don't care if the feds are adopting baby kittens or engineering bio-chemicals, I think the less they take, the better. THAT is economic freedom. Which is what I thought the topic was.

i ideologically oppose the socialist style of government of the french and the corporationist style of economy in the US (although i greatly appreciate the self-sufficiency the americas once had) i will have to pick Myrth:p (now would anyone please explain the term to me, because i've seen it too often and i am really curious as to what its rigins are:rolleyes: )

1. Bush was never mentioned. Hell, I can't stand Bush. But you just stated that the US blew up innocent civilians. THAT is anti-American sentiment. I can assure you, the US military existed long before Shrub.

I thought we were discussing the current situation of our respective countries? I implicitly meant Bush. The current US government is directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people. There is nothing "anti-American" about saying that, no more than my criticising Blair would make me "anti-British". I'm half-British and I criticise Blair. Doesn't mean I hate myself.


2. So, you think the government taking 20% more of the GDP to be good? Then we COMPLETELY disagree. I was merely using the military and health care as examples of what the respective governments spend most on. I don't care if the feds are adopting baby kittens or engineering bio-chemicals, I think the less they take, the better. THAT is economic freedom. Which is what I thought the topic was.

To me, it matters very much what the government is spending my tax money on. I have no objection to them spending it on social policies and healthcare.

I thought we were discussing the current situation of our respective countries? I implicitly meant Bush. The current US government is directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people. There is nothing "anti-American" about saying that, no more than my criticising Blair would make me "anti-British". I'm half-British and I criticise Blair. Doesn't mean I hate myself.

To me, it matters very much what the government is spending my tax money on. I have no objection to them spending it on social policies and healthcare.

I disagree with you on the killing thousands of innocent civilians part, but, again, not part of this topic.

Again, you miss my point. You interpret my metaphors as statements of fact, when I am using them to illustrate. Of course I care how my government spends money. My point is: I want them to spend less of it. Small government = good. Beaurocracy-choked morass = bad.

I already did.

And you ignored it by: 1) attacking my source; which conducts research and provides statistics and is internationally recognized, while you provide no evidence other than your 'Go France!' pom poms.

2) deflecting the issue by saying you choose to pay more tax. Good for you. Now, if your healthy neighbor told the government 'no thanks, I'll keep my money, I'm pretty healthy', do you think they would let him? No.

fisrt things first, your think tank is internationally recognised as being a lobby group for what they percieve to be 'economic freedom'. thats fine, but even you will acknowledge its a subjective index.

you are ignoring the levels of bureacracy that exist in the US, especially at local level. you are also ignoring the levels of indirect taxes in the US and taking income tax alone. thats bad methodology. and you are also ignoring the fundamental and profound point to this thread. you choose to live in a certain type of economy, the french another. you make it sound like they are unaware of neo-liberal boom and bust policies as opposed to just choosing to insulate the economy from the harshest extremes of market capitalism.

now answer the question, define 'economic freedom' and explain how they have less than you as opposed to simply a lower marginal income tax rate

Again, you miss my point. You interpret my metaphors as statements of fact, when I am using them to illustrate. Of course I care how my government spends money. My point is: I want them to spend less of it. Small government = good. Beaurocracy-choked morass = bad.

*nods* My point is that I'm not going to advocate small government for its own sake. I believe government has an important part to play in society. Which is why I don't object to paying taxes to support those less fortunate than me.

You're entitled to your view on the matter, of course. I happen to disagree. Now each of us has the right to vote in our respective countries to try and steer our governments towards policies we believe in.

Trying to dictate to us what we should do with our economy is undemocratic, and the height of ignorance.
Just so no one thinks I'm one of those idiotic French haters, I agree completely with Arridia. I just personally prefer the U.S. economy, as it's the one I'm used to, and the income tax even in the U.S. is annoyingly lethal to any attempts to live on my own at the moment as it is.

http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/index.cfm
Allow me to pimp a different ranking of worldwide economic freedom.

http://www.freetheworld.com/

Just so no one thinks I'm one of those idiotic French haters, I agree completely with Arridia. I just personally prefer the U.S. economy, as it's the one I'm used to, and the income tax even in the U.S. is annoyingly lethal to any attempts to live on my own at the moment as it is.

And that's your right. You're a citizen of the US, so you get to have a say in your country's socio-economic policies. I wouldn't want them in my country, but as you're the one who lives with them, it's up to you.

Unsurprisingly, I voted for the US system. I'd probably be happier having to pay for more things mayself, and instead get that extra choice that lower taxes and fewer regulations give me.

That's not for everyone though.

But even so, the French system is failing too much of its work force. That needs to be worked out.

"Economic Freedom" is an inherently subjective term, based entirely on that which constitutes 'economic freedom' to a given person. Arridia, for example, seems to prefer a system which assists lower-income people at the cost of higher-income people, thereby providing more 'freedom' to lower-income people with the ability to spend more freely. Higher-income people lose a relatively small amount (as compared to their incomes. The Euro value of that loss may be fairly high).

AllCoolNamesAreTaken, on the other hand, appears to equate economic freedom with the idea that a government ought to leave the majority of people's income alone, taking the minimum of what it needs and not propping up lower-income people at the expense of everyone else beyond a certain (and relatively restricted) amount. The idea here being that middle and higher-income people ought not be responsible for lower-income people via a government which takes what they earned and gives it out.

Now, I may have butchered either of you somewhat in this, and for that I apologise. But my point is that simply asking which nation is more 'economically free' won't get you much of an answer, just disagreement. In this case, I happen to identify more with ACNAT than Arridia, but it's personal choice. I also acknowledge that I am one of those 'middle income' people, so I see relatively few direct benefits of a welfare system, whereas someone who is 'lower-income' would likely see more. Again, though, I'm assuming.

AllCoolNamesAreTaken's version is actually freedom. It gives people the freedom to start businesses and employ workers, or become a worker, without being impeded by government intervention.

Arridia's version is just subservience.

AllCoolNamesAreTaken's version is actually freedom. It gives people the freedom to start businesses and employ workers, or become a worker, without being impeded by government intervention.

Arridia's version is just subservience.

so no-one in france can start a company? employ others? be employed?

there are no local and federal rules governing employment and how you operate business in the US? none at all?


that has to be one of the most inane posts ive seen on this forum.

so no-one in france can start a company? employ others? be employed?

there are no local and federal rules governing employment and how you operate business in the US? none at all?


that has to be one of the most inane posts ive seen on this forum.
Yes, because economic freedom is a wholly binary operator.

Are you even paying attention?

Yes, because economic freedom is a wholly binary operator.

Are you even paying attention?

aha, sarcasm meter was off....

French does not hide unemployed people in the army, they feed their poor's.
America sales guns to these people...

Yes free enterprise is great.

I vote France because French are stupid but with a future.
I do not vote for a country with no future.

Nah-you vote france because of pathetic and ignorant bias.

America has a future. And France has a past.

Nah-you vote france because of pathetic and ignorant bias.

America has a future. And France has a past.

yeah, he is the one with the bias....

Hahahahahaha. 50% of people voted for the French economy.

I guess that 20% unemployment, terrible GDP growth, a suffocatingly huge public sector and little if any economic freedom is a major draw for people around here...

:confused: Where did you get that figure for unemployment?
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/fr.html states unemployment rate at 9.9% for France 5.1% for the US... so you don't have much to laugh at.

Also note this:
Population below poverty line:
France: 6.5% (2000)
U.S. 12% (2004 est.)

I'd take France if i were not more satisfied with Czech Republic where i live.
GDP - real growth rate: 6% (2005 est.)
Unemployment rate: 8.9% (2005 est.)
Inflation rate (consumer prices): 1.9% (2005 est.)
Investment (gross fixed): 26.4% of GDP (2005 est.)
Public debt: 25.9% of GDP (2005 est.)
Industrial production growth rate: 6.3% (2005 est.)

Exchange rates: koruny per US dollar - 23.957 (2005), 25.7 (2004), 28.209 (2003), 32.739 (2002), 38.035 (2001)

Check this against U.S. stats and tell me what economy is in better shape :D

Arridia's version is just subservience.

To what, I prithee? To democracy? To the will of the majority, and to laws supported by the citizens of this country? Your version of "freedom" would be to deny French people the right to live and do as they please. Do you not see a hint of a contradiction there?

I must also applaud your gross ignorance in suggesting that people here cannot start their own business and prosper from it. I suppose all these foreign companies are settling here in order to lose money...

I wouldn't pick either of those countries as a place to live, but if forced to choose I'd pick France.

Hahahahahaha. 50% of people voted for the French economy.

I guess that 20% unemployment, terrible GDP growth, a suffocatingly huge public sector and little if any economic freedom is a major draw for people around here...

I didn't think unemployment was that high as that

http://www.thisfrenchlife.com/thisfrenchlife/2005/01/french_unemploy.html
FRENCH unemployment levels appear to have stabilised, but the figure still stands at 9.9 per cent.

French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin has pledged to get the figure down to 9 per cent in 2005, but many think this will be a difficult challenge.

The French national statistics office INSEE, is predicting the unemployment figure may fall to 9.7 per cent by June 2005.

The number of unemployed people in France currently stands at just below 2.5 million.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate

France = 10.1 % 2004

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/fr.html

Unemployment rate:
9.9% (2005 est.)

I don't think its doubled in a year has it?

I didn't think unemployment was that high as that

http://www.thisfrenchlife.com/thisfrenchlife/2005/01/french_unemploy.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate

France = 10.1 % 2004

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/fr.html



I don't think its doubled in a year has it?

He may be refering to youth unemployment as I hear that is much higher in France.

France has one of Europe's highest youth unemployment rates. More than 20% of its 18 to 25-year-olds are unemployed - double the national average of 9.6%.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4816306.stm

Some stats from UNECE (United Nations Economic Commission for Europe)

UK's youth unemployment is 10.5 (2001 http://www.unece.org/stats/trend/gbr.pdf)
Overall unemployment: 4.8

US's youth unemployment is 10.6 (2001 http://www.unece.org/stats/trend/usa.pdf)
Overall unemployment: 4.8

France's youth unemployment is 18.7 (2001 http://www.unece.org/stats/trend/fra.pdf) Note that this had dropped from 28.1 in 1997.
Overall unemployment: 8.5

Anyway, I probably out of the two prefer the US, having a lower tax burden is nice though you just end up paying for things in a different way instead of general taxation (e.g. health insurance compared to state provided health).

Plus a higher chance of being unemployed is a winner as I am classed as part of the 'youth'

this poll is split 50/50? :eek:

we have alot of naive people on this message board...

They're neck and neck! The fans are choking on the tension! Wait... what's this? It's Hamilay! Aaaand America pulls ahead by one vote!

This makes a nice change, the poll being so closely contested.:)

though there is no silly third option:(

To what, I prithee? To democracy? To the will of the majority, and to laws supported by the citizens of this country?
Um, yeah. Individual freedom is incompatible with majority rule.
Your version of "freedom" would be to deny French people the right to live and do as they please. Do you not see a hint of a contradiction there?
I'm not telling them to change anything. I'm just pointing out why I don't prefer their system.
I must also applaud your gross ignorance in suggesting that people here cannot start their own business and prosper from it. I suppose all these foreign companies are settling here in order to lose money...
I didn't say they couldn't start businesses. I said they were less free to do so. Why did I say that?

Because French labour laws place onerous burdens on employers. Employers have less freedom to hire and fire workers (and firing workers needs to take place, because sometimes the need for workers simply declines).

I've voted for France, but I wish the French would stop preventing the modernisation of the EU CAP. I wonder what France would be like without the massive subsidies its agricultural sector gets? I think Africa would be a better place without the subsidies Western agriculture gets in general.
The French health system is one of the best in the world, if not the best.
The US has 12% of its population below the povert line, France 6.5%
The US has approximately $1 trillion debt, France has a paltry $39 billion.

Those poverty lines are defined by the nations themselves, so the two aren't necessarily measuring the same thing. France can make themselves look better by setting a lower line.

Canada, for example, defines the poverty line as an annual income below 50% of the median income. Which is really quite high, and I wouldn't describe most of those people as poor. Working class, but not poor.

I would prefer a more universal definition of poverty, something resembling subsistence levels. In the US that might end up being $11/day, and there are significantly fewer than 12% of Americans that fall below that line.

Those poverty lines are defined by the nations themselves, so the two aren't necessarily measuring the same thing. France can make themselves look better by setting a lower line.

Canada, for example, defines the poverty line as an annual income below 50% of the median income. Which is really quite high, and I wouldn't describe most of those people as poor. Working class, but not poor.

I would prefer a more universal definition of poverty, something resembling subsistence levels. In the US that might end up being $11/day, and there are significantly fewer than 12% of Americans that fall below that line.

But France doesn't do that since the methodics are the same for the whole EU, and much strictier than those used in the U.S.
Have you perchance looked up how unemployment rate is made up in the U.S.?
Looks like the ENRON reports ;)

That still makes it an apples to oranges comparison, plus neither one is measuring real poverty.

Um, yeah. Individual freedom is incompatible with majority rule.

Just as long as we're clear on what your view is.


I'm not telling them to change anything. I'm just pointing out why I don't prefer their system.


Fair enough.


I didn't say they couldn't start businesses. I said they were less free to do so. Why did I say that?

Because French labour laws place onerous burdens on employers. Employers have less freedom to hire and fire workers (and firing workers needs to take place, because sometimes the need for workers simply declines).

France tries to maintain a balance between social rights and "economic freedom". Believe me, employers remain very much free to fire workers here. But I'm glad there is some form of social legislation.

That's what helps give us a good healthcare system, a good education system, and an overall good quality of life. I'd rather that than greater, unecessary "freedom" for employers. France is by no means a socialist paradise, but it avoids the pitfalls of all-out, jungle law ultra-capitalism. And our economy remains strong, proving it to be a good combination.

The USA, if only due to the markedly lower levels of taxation.

I like les Frenchies better... ;)

Well, I chose France, im from Germany and drove through France for a week, I still think that the social differences in France are quite big, but compared to the US, I´d totally prefer France.

Now to the good old economic freedom discussion. Well, I think the problem in defining economic freedom is related to different positions concerning the way, people see an economy.
The economical right defines freedom basically in the view of the one possessing stuff. So their position sees any laws stopping them in doing with their stuff whatever they like seems like an attempt to limit their freedoms for them. This can be seen as the inside perspective of property.
The economical left, on the other hand, basically sees things through the eyes of the ones not owning stuff or having less. In this perspektive, property is always a limit to doing what you like. You don`t have the necessary machines to produce stuff, so you have to become a worker and do what others tell you. You are almost starving, but theres a huge wall around the table where people eat the good food. If your having less, and ergo see property from the outside perspective, you see private property as the thing stopping you from getting what you want, a view, perfectly described by proudhon with his words "property is theft".
Of course, both the inside and the outside perspective are just reflecting one side, and if you look back in history, they actually seem to end in the same unrealistic utopia: the wonderland, where you take what you need and do as you please. In Locke`s writings pro private property, he says that private property is natural, because, when you go out and take something from nature, it´s yours. The idea, that, because ressources are limited, not everybody is able to do so, is never concerned. The Marxist utopia, on the other hand, says, that once the ultimate communist society begins, everyone will be able to take from nature what he needs, because there will be no more private property stopping you from doing that. (Of course you can argue that this was just a very vulgar way of interpreting Marx, and also, a very simplicistic summary of Locke, but hey, who cares?)
I think the more realistic attitude is to see property and economy as an equivalent to the postmodern view on authority, which means, no form of property can be understood if it´s not seen as a result of human interaction. Therefore, there is no natural form of property. Any form of property limits your freedom. "If you think, you are free, go to the supermarket and pee on the salamy", to quote Triple X (although I haven`t seen the movie in English, so I might have translated it wrong). I mean, "thou shalt not steal" is already limiting my personal freedom although the freedom to steal of course should not be given to anybody. And "you are allowed to do with your stuff, whatever you want to do" is rarely more than a privilege if they´re people owning stuff and people not owning stuff.
All that said (I know I´m someone talking far to much) I personally see those countrys as economically free, where the amount of say one has in economical decissions is proportionate to the degree they are affected and where the economy is egalitarian enough to give everyone the equal (material) chance to get what they want, while the system should also be producing as efficient as possible, which means awarding higher efforts and sacrifices. Unlike most libertarian socialists, I do not think theres only one way to achieve these goals, I rather think that parecon and other council-democratic, syndicalist stile economies, or social democratic market systems when being as grassroots-democratically ruled as possible, or guild socialist systems would offer the greatest chance in realising my idea of economical freedom. But that´s just my opinion.
Whoaa, I hope I didn´t go offtopic by now...

the french economy.

Because america is governed by a retard.

Under clinton?
America! Wooooo

JFK?
WOoooo

Roosevelt?
WOOOOO

Retard?
er...no

And now its time too play, challenge that n00b!

Under Clinton: Higher taxes, complete blunder in Somalia, Sex Scandal. The only good thing he did was cut the federal defeceit.

JFK? Excellent President.

Rooosevelt?
Meh. Ok.

Retard? AKA you:

No you would make a terrible president!

George W. Bush
Stronger internal security, unwavering, lower taxes.

As for the economic thing, the US. Id prefer actually being able too have some civil freedom in spending my income as i wish. Rather than having 80% of my income go towards supporting 4 people who refuse too work. Also, its ridiculous the number of social programs. Meh, it works for socialists though, seeing as the individual has no freedom, and the community dictates the way of life for all (*cough* a libertarians nightmare*) Listen tahts not too short of repression when you think of it. USA, i'd rather spend the money I earn.

George W. Bush
Stronger internal security

Pray tell. I would love to hear this.

As for the OP, I picked France based solely on the basis that it would irk such a jingoistic, amoral and generally idiotic poster.

Hahahahahaha. 50% of people voted for the French economy.

I guess that 20% unemployment, terrible GDP growth, a suffocatingly huge public sector and little if any economic freedom is a major draw for people around here...

Dont forget with that 20% unemployment rate, you pay thier grocery, electricity and water bills, out of your pocket. Have fun spending that 40 euors out of your 600 euro weekly paycheck.

Pray tell. I would love to hear this.

As for the OP, I picked France based solely on the basis that it would irk such a jingoistic, amoral and generally idiotic poster.

ummm....well for the security thing, I havent really seen another plane crash into the pentagon...Spose you dont watch too much news, do ya?

ummm....well for the security thing, I havent really seen another plane crash into the pentagon...Spose you dont watch too much news, do ya?

.....riiiiiiiiiiight.

That's your answer in it's entirety is it?

"I don't see any tigers around here. It must be this magic amulet".
"Quick. I'll give you $10 for it!"
"Dad, there aren't any tigers in Springfield."
"Exactly. Now gimme the amulet."

Dont forget with that 20% unemployment rate, you pay thier grocery, electricity and water bills, out of your pocket. Have fun spending that 40 euors out of your 600 euro weekly paycheck.

Uhuh. I suppose the fact that what you've just said is utter rubbish doesn't concern you in the slightest. God forbid reality should get in the way of your delusions...

I prefer the US. The way I see it:
Americans prefer the American system because they are used to it.
Eurpeans prefer the French system because it's probably closer to what they are used to.

This is in general, meaning that there will always be a few people who will be the exceptions.

Meh, it works for socialists though, seeing as the individual has no freedom, and the community dictates the way of life for all (*cough* a libertarians nightmare*)

Well, let´s compare the individual´s freedoms in a capitalist society and a social democratic/libertarian socialist/any economic model with equal features society, as I see it:

Capitalism:
- John Normal Dude is going to his factory. By which I mean the factory he works at. What is he allowed to do? What he´s told to do. Any sign of disobedience, and he´s fired. That´s what you call the economic freedom of deciding who to fire.
- At home, he´s confronted with a culture, that tells him, if he does not do this, does not eat that, he is out, not following the trends shown to him by TV. Advertisements offer social norms and have-to-dos that can only be avoided on your own risc. Nonconfirmism is distrusted. He´s not wearing a grey suit when going to work? Maybe he disrespects his boss. He dislikes his social status? IS HE A COMMUNIST?
- But is he having enough money to buy the stuff? Well, he works in two jobs to get enough, but that doesn´t mean he is rich. The nations average income is quite high, but nine times 0 and once a 100 still makes a average 10, so that doesn´t mean much, either. So he´s free to do whatever he want´s to do with that few money he has.

lib. soc.:
- John Normal Dude either works in a collectively owned workplace, with the rule "one man, one vote". Then his workplace might be ruled through the principle: Influence on decisions proportional to the grade one is affected. Which means: He is totally free to decide, which suit he wears, as long as this has no negative effect on his coworkers (if there´s a jew in your factory, it might bother him, if you wear a swastika on your suit, for example, I think the jew should have the right to tell his comrade not to wear that thing). If there´s a decision about which new machines the factory wants to buy, the whole staff may decide it democratically, for example.
- Or he works in a social market system, where he doesn´t decide all the stuff in his factory, but through democratic institutions and unions he´s got the means to influence the factory owner´s decisions.
- At home, he may still be confronted with TV advertisments telling him this and that, but at least there´s some public broadcasting without that stuff. These governmentally funded TV channels broadcast both the government´s and the oppositions view and laws make sure the channels won´t get turned into state TV totalitarian style, instead they have to have airtime for all the points of view out there.
- There also might be a "cultural flatrate", which means John pays some monthly tax and gets the right to download whatever he wants. Then there will be a direct upload by artists, download by consumers and no media corporations in between, ergo no advertisements
- Because John either get´s paid per efford and sacrifice (parecon), or any payment close to that, he gets a lot, when he works a lot, so he´s enough money to buy what he wants. In a parecon he would also be allowed to directly decide in questions of collective consumption, like "would I like an airport near me?", in a social market system the government would take his taxes to do what he wants.

Of course, this is just a simple, incomplete comparison, but I think you see what I´m wanting to say.

Oh, and the above might be a rightwing libertarian´s nightmare, the libertarian left, on the other hand, considers extreme capitalism as a nightmare.

this poll is split 50/50? :eek:

we have alot of naive people on this message board...

We sure do. :D :p

I don't think the US has an economy anymore. Once our nation sunk under one trillion dollars of debt our economy vanished. Or maybe it was when Bush started making more tax cuts for the rich and taxing the poor more. Who knows?

I prefer the US. The way I see it:
Americans prefer the American system because they are used to it.
Eurpeans prefer the French system because it's probably closer to what they are used to.

This is in general, meaning that there will always be a few people who will be the exceptions.
Aye. I'd prefer a system that merges the good parts of both systems... and we are getting there. Be certain we'll announce it when we get there - not there yet, but the transition stage isn't too bad either!

That's what helps give us a good healthcare system
I'll give you that.

I'm Canadian, and I envy your your healthcare. It's both better and cheaper than ours.

To the Americans who want universal healthcare, I say this: Don't look to Canada. Look to France or Iceland (I'm especially fond of the Icelandic model) - they do a much better job of universal healthcare.

The USA, if only due to the markedly lower levels of taxation.

what lower tax?

you are aware that there are no sales taxes in france, or state taxes, or local taxes...

you are being asurdly naive if you choose only to use income tax as a measure

Of course, this is just a simple, incomplete comparison, but I think you see what I´m wanting to say.
I would hate to think that John Normal Dude would be so incapable. I prefer to believe in the good side of people, in their abilities and their self-belief.

I would hate to think that John Normal Dude would be so incapable. I prefer to believe in the good side of people, in their abilities and their self-belief.

*shakes fist violently at Leonstein for saying what I was going to say*

what lower tax?

you are aware that there are no sales taxes in france, or state taxes, or local taxes...

you are being asurdly naive if you choose only to use income tax as a measure

Talk about absurdly naive.... Here is the basic French tax system. Notice the VAT tax which is popular in alot of socialist nations.

Direct Taxation

Residents in France, whether French or foreign nationals, are taxed on their global earnings. However, there is a double taxation agreement between the UK and France which prevents those who still have tax liabilities in the United Kingdom from being taxed twice on the same element of income. Its full title is the Convention for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income. It came into force on 29 October 1969 and has been subsequently amended by four protocols dated 10/02/71, 14/05/73, 12/06/86, and 15/10/87 (France Treaty Series n° 6(1970).Cmnd.4253).

The French tax authorities consider an individual to be resident if that person spends over 183 days in France in any calendar year.

The French tax year runs from 1 January to 31 December and residents pay taxes on their income for the preceding year and not the current one. French income tax is a progressive tax with rates of the net salary after Social Security contributions. However, there are a wide range of rebates and exemptions granted on gross income which allow a more moderate rate of taxation. (A standard deduction of 10% and a further deduction of 20% on the balance can be applied for most salaried tax payers.)

Families in France benefit from a system known as "Le quotient Familial" (family quota) through which a taxable income is divided into "units" reflecting the family status of the tax-payer. For example, people living alone (single, widowed etc) represent one unit and are taxed on the whole of their income. A married couple are considered as two units and their joint income will be divided by two. In addition, the first two children count as one-half a unit each and each additional child is counted as a full unit.

Impôt sur la Fortune (Wealth Tax). A standard rate of Wealth Tax is applicable to residents in France - further information can be obtained from the local tax office.
Impôt sur les Bénéfices (Corporation Tax). There is a single rate of Corporation tax - further information can be obtained from the local tax office.

Indirect Taxation

Taxe sur la Valeur Ajoutée - T.V.A. (VAT). There are two rates of VAT in France, a reduced rate of 5.5% and the standard rate of 19.6%.

Well considering my fathers side of the family "escaped" the French socialist to become American capitalist I will have to say proud to live in America. I could not have done what I have done in this nation in France. We actually looked into exporting our business model for the insurance services company that I am part owner. We can not use our business model in the UK and France. Simply put government regulations in those two nations prohibit our type of business model. So will collect my millions in the US. Will visit France on occasion in my life but will never live there. Viva la USA!

We can not use our business model in the UK and France. Simply put government regulations in those two nations prohibit our type of business model. What exactly is that model? You pimp luke warm bodies?

America, hands down.

I despise socialism, so france is a no-no. Call me greedy, but I'd rather have more in my pocket than money in social programs.

I despise socialism, so france is a no-no.I despise tomatos, therefore I don't eat seafood.

What exactly is that model? You pimp luke warm bodies?

It is basically illegal in the UK and France on varying degrees to sell the type of investment and insurance investments that we do here in the US. Let alone the type of advertising that we employ to sell them. If I explained the whole business model here then I would have to kill anyone that read it. Don't feel like moving all the dead bodies.

Dont forget with that 20% unemployment rate, you pay thier grocery, electricity and water bills, out of your pocket. Have fun spending that 40 euors out of your 600 euro weekly paycheck.

I still don't get where u have mined from that 20% unemployment rate.
The K.G.B. reports from 1970?

ummm....well for the security thing, I havent really seen another plane crash into the pentagon...Spose you dont watch too much news, do ya?

No, but i have seen a rising trend in international terrorism directed towards american citizens outside U.S. borders.
I don't watch news though, i read agencies (Reuters, ANSA, CTK). It's faster and a little more objective than FOX.

I would hate to think that John Normal Dude would be so incapable. I prefer to believe in the good side of people, in their abilities and their self-belief.

I did never say that John Normal Dude is incapable, actually I believe failing in a Capitalist society is not a sign of incapability, but most time just bad luck and worse chances. Or do you want to tell me that only the richer 10% of society are capable people? That doesn´t look like believing in the good side of the people to me... But when there´s a factory with 100 workers and 1 owner (which is still unrealistic, if you consider how oligopolized today´s business is), I think the worker`s way of live can be considered more average than the owner´s way. I agree, that my John Normal Dude is living a live a bit below average, but do you think that those people should have less freedoms than others? Or why does his perspective not count? Is economic freedom only the freedom of the rich? Then it should be called economic privileges.

Aye. I'd prefer a system that merges the good parts of both systems... and we are getting there. Be certain we'll announce it when we get there - not there yet, but the transition stage isn't too bad either!

I'm going for the Bunnyducks option.^

Both systems are wrong. The american system is great if you make good money and the french system is good if you make little money.

Something more in keeping with Canada's system. Or maybe denmarks or finlands. Not sweden though, not so good if you look to closely..

I'm going for the Bunnyducks option.^

Both systems are wrong. The american system is great if you make good money and the french system is good if you make little money.

Something more in keeping with Canada's system. Or maybe denmarks or finlands. Not sweden though, not so good if you look to closely..

Since my NS country is categoriced as "Scandinavian Liberal Paradise", I´d say Scandinavian states are quite cool, yes...:rolleyes: Their tendency to ensure a good grade of social equality plus a lot of social freedoms is something I really look up to, although I don´t know what´s so bad about Sweden.
Plus: Christiania is in Denmark ^^ So, Scandinavia = :cool:

I vote France because French are stupid but with a future.
LOL

I voted with my Credit Card

Face it, the U.S. kicks ass under Bush. You all need to realize when you look down on your ipod, when you're reminded that Bush isn't doing investigations for illegal downloading of mp3's, your tivo, your dvd's, your high definition screen tv's, your xbox360 and remember that Bush released that tiny chip that is in your iPod, and gave the documents for commercial use. All those things that require sophisticated instruments to function the way they do all cause of that chip.

Let's see oh yeah in the Clinton days, we had casette players! HELL YEAH, oh and we had sega and super nintendo! They were cool, but xbox totally kicks ass. And let's see we live in a better house than we did 10 years ago. Food is cheaper, clothing is cheaper, everything was boring and dull during the Clinton years. The only thing good during those years was old nickolodeon, MTV cartoons, and old cartoon network. THATS IT!

But onto France, the thing about France is, it's economy mostly relies on tourism, and the only good thing about France is the louvre museum, the riviera, and basque country. That is it, nothing else is great about France. The wine sucks, it tastes like fucking grape juice, basque country is okay, and the only thing to do in paris is fucking the prostitutes. And I don't even wanna do that, christ they even have little fucking 14 year olds giving themselves away.

The United States ranks 11th for the cleanest country in the world, where France lands at number 13.

United States ranks 3rd for the most richest countries in the world $37,800.00 per capita, where France ranks in at number 16 with $27,600.00 per capita. Hence U.S. economy = better than France's.

United States ranks 6th for highest quality of life, where France ranks in at number 12, oooh too bad France U.S. outranks you again.

United States ranks 1rst for most olympic medals 2,112. Where France ranks in at 4th with oooh short again France, 601.

We got more Nukes, cept Russia, they have like more than twice we do.

The only thing France outranks the U.S., and thats tourism and life expectancy rate.

But I conclude the U.S. economy is BETTER than France's. GG

Since my NS country is categoriced as "Scandinavian Liberal Paradise", I´d say Scandinavian states are quite cool, yes...:rolleyes: Their tendency to ensure a good grade of social equality plus a lot of social freedoms is something I really look up to, although I don´t know what´s so bad about Sweden.
Plus: Christiania is in Denmark ^^ So, Scandinavia = :cool:


You are very very VERY uneducated. Denmark ISSSSS apart of Scandinavia, look at the crosses on the flags. They symbolize christianity. Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Iceland, all have it. The two greatest countries of Scandinavia is Norway, and Finland. They have the highest quality of life in europe, and some of the best economies. But not all of them do, Denmarks economy isn't going up or down, but Sweden is going down...down...down. You never know what happens to your economy in a socialist country.

Take mine for example, I have a capitalist paradise. Civil rights = Excellent, Economy = Powerhouse, Political Freedoms = Very good. And my Income tax is only 36%!!! I bet your country's income tax is like fucking 80%. I've had one of the most highest employed citizens, most wealthiest, most educated, most safest, most healthiest, and most happy. I ranked around 350 or something for worlds happiest citizens. So take your scandinavian liberal paradise and stick it up your bum, if you turn into a left wing college state, your economy is probably being runned by potheads and drunks.

You never know what happens to your economy in a socialist country.for some reason.. scandinavian Countries are perceived as Liberal.

The two greatest countries of Scandinavia is Norway, and Finland. They have the highest quality of life in europe, and some of the best economies. But not all of them do, Denmarks economy isn't going up or down, but Sweden is going down...down...down. really?
I am under the impression that thay are all doing fine. (highest? best? greatest?.. really?)

Take mine for example, I have a capitalist paradise. Civil rights = Excellent, Economy = Powerhouse, Political Freedoms = Very good. And my Income tax is only 36%!!! I bet your country's income tax is like fucking 80%. I've had one of the most highest employed citizens, most wealthiest, most educated, most safest, most healthiest, and most happy. I ranked around 350 or something for worlds happiest citizens. So take your scandinavian liberal paradise and stick it up your bum, if you turn into a left wing college state, your economy is probably being runned by potheads and drunks.
Somehow I don't think you see the irony of that which I have bolded. :p

BTW, these nations that we tinker with here, is nowhere near reality. :D

You are very very VERY uneducated. Denmark ISSSSS apart of Scandinavia, look at the crosses on the flags. They symbolize christianity. Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Iceland, all have it. The two greatest countries of Scandinavia is Norway, and Finland. They have the highest quality of life in europe, and some of the best economies. But not all of them do, Denmarks economy isn't going up or down, but Sweden is going down...down...down. You never know what happens to your economy in a socialist country.

Take mine for example, I have a capitalist paradise. Civil rights = Excellent, Economy = Powerhouse, Political Freedoms = Very good. And my Income tax is only 36%!!! I bet your country's income tax is like fucking 80%. I've had one of the most highest employed citizens, most wealthiest, most educated, most safest, most healthiest, and most happy. I ranked around 350 or something for worlds happiest citizens. So take your scandinavian liberal paradise and stick it up your bum, if you turn into a left wing college state, your economy is probably being runned by potheads and drunks.

Did you mean Denmark is apart of Scandinavia or it´s a part of it? Because, actually I was quite unsure if Denmark is a part of Scandinavia before posting, so I looked it up in wikipedia.org and there it says that:

Scandinavia is a region in Northern Europe. A common definition includes Denmark, mainland Norway and Sweden.

The German wikipedia states that the geographical definition of Scandinavia doesn`t include Denmark, while culturtally you usually see Denmark as a Scandinavian country. So, yes, I´m a bit uneducated in European geography, but at least I look things up before I make statements that might make me look stupid.

And I wasn´t talking about Christianity at all, I mentioned Christiania, the Freetown in Kopenhagen, some nice, little New Leftist commune (sort of, quite hard to explain in few words). One of the many places I´d like to visit some day.

Considering the economy of Sweden, I actually don´t know much about it (that´s why I said "I don´t know what´s so bad about Sweden". Cause I don´t, I´ve never been there).

And I don´t think my income tax is like fucking 80%, even though I don´t know what fucking 80% feels like. I usually don´t fuck 80%s.

And sticking my country up my bum would actually quite hurt, a country with 40 million inhabitants might be small in comparison to other countrys, but in the context of sticking things up my bum, it would be quite big. That´s what you call relativity. ^^ And uuhh yeah, your NS country´s statistics totally impress me. Is there something you wanna compensate with that? :rolleyes: Because:


BTW, these nations that we tinker with here, is nowhere near reality. :D

Couldn´t agree more. It´s just a game.

The US’s. If you don’t have a good economy, eventually those social programs aren’t going to have any money coming in.

US Economy vs. French Economy

Why ?


Might as well say Bill gates bankroll VS. A welfare recipient .

Are you trying to make fun of France ? they are kinda socialist you know..so the state controlled economy dont work too well .



This poll says more about the make up of this forum than reality...
Although Drinking wine and eeating cheese with a hot French babe in Patis does sound kinda good ...especially if I dont have to even work 40 hours a week . More time to hang with the babe and drink wine .

Might have a slight point in the favor of France .

More time to hang with the babe and drink wine
I hear they don't shave their armpits. Or legs.

Face it, the U.S. kicks ass under Bush. You all need to realize when you look down on your ipod, when you're reminded that Bush isn't doing investigations for illegal downloading of mp3's, your tivo, your dvd's, your high definition screen tv's, your xbox360 and remember that Bush released that tiny chip that is in your iPod, and gave the documents for commercial use. All those things that require sophisticated instruments to function the way they do all cause of that chip.

Let's see oh yeah in the Clinton days, we had casette players! HELL YEAH, oh and we had sega and super nintendo! They were cool, but xbox totally kicks ass. And let's see we live in a better house than we did 10 years ago. Food is cheaper, clothing is cheaper, everything was boring and dull during the Clinton years. The only thing good during those years was old nickolodeon, MTV cartoons, and old cartoon network. THATS IT!
You know that
1. Bush does is not solely (or even mostly) responsable for the advancing technology.
2. CDs have been around since the 80s (we weren't using casettes in the '90s)
3. The US has had more issues with mp3 file sharing in the past 6 years than during the Clinton administration. If I recall, the whole Napster issue was in 2001 to early 2002... it was shortly before I started university at least.
4. Those same technologies are available in many countries all over the world.

But onto France, the thing about France is, it's economy mostly relies on tourism,
I really doubt this.

and the only good thing about France is the louvre museum, the riviera, and basque country.
I love how you didn't even hit on most of the tourist attractions or cultural monuments in Paris alone.

That is it, nothing else is great about France.
Except culture, having gotten modern democracy really started, artists, authors, philosophers...

The wine sucks, it tastes like fucking grape juice,
Right... it tastes so much worse than wine made in California, I'm sure :rolleyes:

(note, I'm broke so any wine I buy is made in Ontario, it's a lot cheaper than imported wines usually)

the only thing to do in paris is fucking the prostitutes. And I don't even wanna do that, christ they even have little fucking 14 year olds giving themselves away.
Uh huh... I'm guessing you haven't been to France.

United States ranks 6th for highest quality of life, where France ranks in at number 12, oooh too bad France U.S. outranks you again.
Canada ranks third... therefore Canada>>>US
Damn, beaten by your neighbours to the North.

United States ranks 1rst for most olympic medals 2,112. Where France ranks in at 4th with oooh short again France, 601.
When you send 10 times as many atheletes as any other country, you tend to win a lot. What's your point?

We got more Nukes, cept Russia, they have like more than twice we do.
Oh yes, let's use the ownership of nuclear devices as an indication of how great a country is.

I hear they don't shave their armpits. Or legs.
From what I've heard (from friends who have been there) they do.

I hear they don't shave their armpits. Or legs.

better drink more wine I guess . Its all good .

"Sides...shaving them can be fun ...:)

I hear they don't shave their armpits. Or legs.

and you lot all wear cowboy hats and cant read. :rolleyes:

some of the sterotyping of the french and their work hours is bizarre stuff.

I still don't get where u have mined from that 20% unemployment rate.
The K.G.B. reports from 1970?

Good question. According to the CIA Factbook, last years estimated unemployment rate for the US was 5.1% Frances' estimated unemployment rate was 9.9% By that factor alone, I vote for the US having a better economy.

You are very very VERY uneducated. Denmark ISSSSS apart of Scandinavia, look at the crosses on the flags. They symbolize christianity. Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Iceland, all have it. The two greatest countries of Scandinavia is Norway, and Finland. They have the highest quality of life in europe, and some of the best economies. But not all of them do, Denmarks economy isn't going up or down, but Sweden is going down...down...down. You never know what happens to your economy in a socialist country.

Take mine for example, I have a capitalist paradise. Civil rights = Excellent, Economy = Powerhouse, Political Freedoms = Very good. And my Income tax is only 36%!!! I bet your country's income tax is like fucking 80%. I've had one of the most highest employed citizens, most wealthiest, most educated, most safest, most healthiest, and most happy. I ranked around 350 or something for worlds happiest citizens. So take your scandinavian liberal paradise and stick it up your bum, if you turn into a left wing college state, your economy is probably being runned by potheads and drunks.
Take a look at Pure Metal's nation. Communist, but has a GDP per capita of like $36,000.That's All Consumming, second highest there is.

Cheese and wine > Cars that couldn't pass for shite

Take a look at Pure Metal's nation. Communist, but has a GDP per capita of like $36,000.That's All Consumming, second highest there is.

*Random pimping of own nation's Economy*

Face it, the U.S. kicks ass under Bush. You all need to realize when you look down on your ipod, when you're reminded that Bush isn't doing investigations for illegal downloading of mp3's, your tivo, your dvd's, your high definition screen tv's, your xbox360 and remember that Bush released that tiny chip that is in your iPod, and gave the documents for commercial use. All those things that require sophisticated instruments to function the way they do all cause of that chip.

Let's see oh yeah in the Clinton days, we had casette players! HELL YEAH, oh and we had sega and super nintendo! They were cool, but xbox totally kicks ass. And let's see we live in a better house than we did 10 years ago. Food is cheaper, clothing is cheaper, everything was boring and dull during the Clinton years. The only thing good during those years was old nickolodeon, MTV cartoons, and old cartoon network. THATS IT!
That was the most retarded thing I have possibly ever read.

"Technology in the early Clinton years was rubbish compared to modern day Bush technology"

Yes... that's because it was ten years ago or so and research has moved on in all fields since then...

It wouldn't matter if Al Gore was in charge, you'd still have your bloody toys, and they'd be just as good.

You're talking about R&D in consumer goods, which has fuck-all to do with whos in charge of a capitalist state, it's due to market demand.
But onto France, the thing about France is, it's economy mostly relies on tourism
1) No it doesn't at all
2) What's the issue with that, anyway?
and the only good thing about France is the louvre museum
It's a bloody gallery, not really a museum.
the riviera
Fair enough...
and basque country.
That's in Spain, not France :rolleyes:
That is it, nothing else is great about France.[QUOTE]
The language, actual existance of culture, lovely food, social justice and beautiful countryside count for nothing, then, no?
[QUOTE]The wine sucks, it tastes like fucking grape juice
You seemingly picked a set of cheap and hence crap wines / have no taste, then.
basque country is okay
But in Spain...
and the only thing to do in paris is fucking the prostitutes
Or looking at the galleries... or going to eat in a restaurant by the river... or going up the Eiffel Tower / any other relic of your choosing.
And I don't even wanna do that, christ they even have little fucking 14 year olds giving themselves away.
Ah yes, because child prostitution simply doesn't exist in the US...
The United States ranks 11th for the cleanest country in the world, where France lands at number 13.
That's because much of the US is fairly uninhabited, or has little other than arable land in it, which produces little pollution.

The areas around the cities are horrendous compared to even the most industrialised areas of France.
United States ranks 3rd for the most richest countries in the world $37,800.00 per capita, where France ranks in at number 16 with $27,600.00 per capita. Hence U.S. economy = better than France's.
Not really, since a lot of that money lies in a very small amount of people.

In France, wealth is more spread out, which makes it more stable.
United States ranks 6th for highest quality of life, where France ranks in at number 12, oooh too bad France U.S. outranks you again.
Who performed this survey?

Is it for the rich? The poor? The middle class? A broad range of people?

Because in France, at least you can, y'know... eat and things when you're poor. And drink, and dance a bit.

In the US being poor puts you in a much worse situation.
United States ranks 1rst for most olympic medals 2,112. Where France ranks in at 4th with oooh short again France, 601.
The US has more than five times' the population of France. Not winning five times as many medals is, therefore, rubbish. The US should go and fall on its own sword, really.
We got more Nukes, cept Russia, they have like more than twice we do.
Urmm... this is correct. What is your point?

And does this make Russia twice the country that the US is?
The only thing France outranks the U.S., and thats tourism and life expectancy rate.
Culture... social justice... crime... all of those mean nothing to you, eh?
But I conclude the U.S. economy is BETTER than France's.
In some respects, yes, in terms of sheer money owned.

In others, hell no, in almost everything else.
GG
Lolzlolz me ftw gg no re.

Actually, re if you like.

Face it, the U.S. kicks ass under Bush. You all need to realize when you look down on your ipod, when you're reminded that Bush isn't doing investigations for illegal downloading of mp3's, your tivo, your dvd's, your high definition screen tv's, your xbox360 and remember that Bush released that tiny chip that is in your iPod, and gave the documents for commercial use. All those things that require sophisticated instruments to function the way they do all cause of that chip.

Let's see oh yeah in the Clinton days, we had casette players! HELL YEAH, oh and we had sega and super nintendo! They were cool, but xbox totally kicks ass. And let's see we live in a better house than we did 10 years ago. Food is cheaper, clothing is cheaper, everything was boring and dull during the Clinton years. The only thing good during those years was old nickolodeon, MTV cartoons, and old cartoon network. THATS IT!

But onto France, the thing about France is, it's economy mostly relies on tourism, and the only good thing about France is the louvre museum, the riviera, and basque country. That is it, nothing else is great about France. The wine sucks, it tastes like fucking grape juice, basque country is okay, and the only thing to do in paris is fucking the prostitutes. And I don't even wanna do that, christ they even have little fucking 14 year olds giving themselves away.

The United States ranks 11th for the cleanest country in the world, where France lands at number 13.

United States ranks 3rd for the most richest countries in the world $37,800.00 per capita, where France ranks in at number 16 with $27,600.00 per capita. Hence U.S. economy = better than France's.

United States ranks 6th for highest quality of life, where France ranks in at number 12, oooh too bad France U.S. outranks you again.

United States ranks 1rst for most olympic medals 2,112. Where France ranks in at 4th with oooh short again France, 601.

We got more Nukes, cept Russia, they have like more than twice we do.

The only thing France outranks the U.S., and thats tourism and life expectancy rate.

But I conclude the U.S. economy is BETTER than France's. GG
Oh boy, more nukes!! Give your head a shake.

Let's see other things that the US outranks France:

Murders per capita (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita): US 24th France 40th

Total crimes (per capita) (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita): US 8th (85 per 100,000) France 14th (62 per 100,000)

Prisoners per capita (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-prisoners-per-capita): US # 1 (715 per 100,00) France 95th (95 per 100,000)

Poverty rate (http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/indicators.cfm?x=27&y=1&z=1): US 15% (worst of the 17 OECD countries), France 11.4% (10th)

Child poverty (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_chi_pov-economy-child-poverty): US #2 (22.4%) France 15th (7.9%)

The US spends the most per capita for health care (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_hea_car_fun_tot_per_cap-care-funding-total-per-capita)(twice as much as the French), yet the French outlive Americans by 3 years (80 to 77), and the US infant mortality rate is 7 per 1,000 and France is 4.

BTW, the US ranks 10th for Human development index (http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/indicators.cfm?x=1&y=1&z=1)and France ranks 16th.

What the above tells me is that in the US there is a high concentration of wealth (http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/indicators.cfm?x=148&y=1&z=1) in fewer hands than in there is in France.

As far as American healthcare, more and more Americans are becoming uninsured (46,000,000), and spiralling costs (http://www.management-issues.com/2006/9/28/research/soaring-heath-care-costs-point-to-more-trouble-ahead.asp)hurts companies that offer coverage to their employees, causing them to reduce coverages or drop them entirely.

As the cost of employee health coverage in the U.S. again surges ahead of inflation, more than half of workers are worried their health care costs will increase and the scope of their benefits decrease over the next few years.

The cost of employee health care coverage has risen by an average of 7.7 per cent this year, according to a survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation, more than double the rate of inflation and a rise of 87 per cent since 2000.

Despite the fact that this represents the third year in a row that cost increases have slowed, it still means that more and more firms – particularly smaller ones – are forced to reign in wages to pay for health benefits.

The picture is a bit blurry?

Face it, the U.S. kicks ass under Bush. You all need to realize when you look down on your ipod, when you're reminded that Bush isn't doing investigations for illegal downloading of mp3's, your tivo, your dvd's, your high definition screen tv's, your xbox360 and remember that Bush released that tiny chip that is in your iPod, and gave the documents for commercial use. All those things that require sophisticated instruments to function the way they do all cause of that chip.

Let's see oh yeah in the Clinton days, we had casette players! HELL YEAH, oh and we had sega and super nintendo! They were cool, but xbox totally kicks ass. And let's see we live in a better house than we did 10 years ago. Food is cheaper, clothing is cheaper, everything was boring and dull during the Clinton years. The only thing good during those years was old nickolodeon, MTV cartoons, and old cartoon network. THATS IT!

But onto France, the thing about France is, it's economy mostly relies on tourism, and the only good thing about France is the louvre museum, the riviera, and basque country. That is it, nothing else is great about France. The wine sucks, it tastes like fucking grape juice, basque country is okay, and the only thing to do in paris is fucking the prostitutes. And I don't even wanna do that, christ they even have little fucking 14 year olds giving themselves away.

The United States ranks 11th for the cleanest country in the world, where France lands at number 13.

United States ranks 3rd for the most richest countries in the world $37,800.00 per capita, where France ranks in at number 16 with $27,600.00 per capita. Hence U.S. economy = better than France's.

United States ranks 6th for highest quality of life, where France ranks in at number 12, oooh too bad France U.S. outranks you again.

United States ranks 1rst for most olympic medals 2,112. Where France ranks in at 4th with oooh short again France, 601.

We got more Nukes, cept Russia, they have like more than twice we do.

The only thing France outranks the U.S., and thats tourism and life expectancy rate.

But I conclude the U.S. economy is BETTER than France's. GG

Where did you get these statistcs from?

Take mine for example, I have a capitalist paradise. Civil rights = Excellent, Economy = Powerhouse, Political Freedoms = Very good. And my Income tax is only 36%!!! I bet your country's income tax is like fucking 80%. I've had one of the most highest employed citizens, most wealthiest, most educated, most safest, most healthiest, and most happy. I ranked around 350 or something for worlds happiest citizens. So take your scandinavian liberal paradise and stick it up your bum, if you turn into a left wing college state, your economy is probably being runned by potheads and drunks.

Left-Leaning College State - Civil Rights: Superb - Economy: Strong - Political Freedoms: Very Good

Citizens pay a flat income tax of 33% :)

I have been scandinavian liberal paradise with a tax rate of 30! :p

Le French kick le ass. :)