NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/treasurecoast/content/local_news/epaper/2006/09/29/m1a_SLXMAS_0929.html

According to this article, the pageant was shot down because the principal had a parent bugging her about the separation of church and state. This was last year's pageant over which the parent got angry. So now, rather than letting it go ahead as planned or having cancelled it far in advance, they let kids get excited about it and THEN axe it. Stupid, stupid people.

Granted, I am all for getting rid of these ridiculous "pageants" for elementary kids and sticking to actual work, but the timing of this is atrocious, say what you will about separation of church and state. She is the principal who cancelled Christmas, plain and simple. It's akin to running an entire football season up to the playoffs and then announcing that football is too dangerous and cancelling the playoffs. Again, stupid, stupid people. And these people, especially this principal, are in charge of kids' futures? I wouldn't let them be in charge of a fucking ficus plant.

Okay, for starters, it's not like there aren't significant non-christian communities down here. I work in Boca and live south of there, and you're just as likely to see symbols for Hanukah and Ramadan and every other damn holiday as you are to see Christmas stuff, so it's not like this is a case of one parent objecting, no matter how the paper spins it.

Secondly, here's the money quote for me: "My child learns about Kwanzaa and dreidels," Bender said, referring to religious traditions celebrated by non-Christians. "Why can't they sing about Santa and Rudolph?"
There's a big difference between learning about Kwanzaa and dreidels and singing about Santa and Rudolph. You can learn about Christmas traditions without singing the songs--you'll get a better sense of the tradition if you do, frankly.

But this isn't about learning. It's only dressed up that way to try to elicit sympathy for the cause. It's about putting kids in the uncomfortable situation where they may be asked to set themselves apart so others can celebrate their holiday in front of them.

What if there was going to be a White Pride pageant at school, and "one angry parent" objected to the racism inherent in the program?

Pageants celebrating an organized superstition do not belong in public schools. They are a waste of time and money, and are a violation of the secular principles of our society. It is disgraceful that only one "angry parent" was American enough to point this out.

What if there was going to be a White Pride pageant at school, and "one angry parent" objected to the racism inherent in the program?

First off, if there was only one angry parent, it would be an absolute shock, unless all the other parents are asleep or on vacation on Mars at the time. Given what a hot-button issue a White Pride pageant would be if anyone dared attempt one, whoever attempted it would certainly be run out of town by an angry mob.

I myself am surprised it was only one angry parent, assuming that was actually the case. However, remember that I was more upset at the timing of the cancellation and not at the fact that it was only one parent who shot it down.

Pageants celebrating an organized superstition do not belong in public schools. They are a waste of time and money, and are a violation of the secular principles of our society. It is disgraceful that only one "angry parent" was American enough to point this out.

Pageants of any kind in schools are a waste of time and money that could be spent putting the children to work learning things. This year's pageant should have been the last, and no pageants should be around to replace them.

I just reread the article and noticed something--it wasn't "a single parent" who got the pageant cancelled, though from the context it's easy to understand why a reader might think that. The principal was criticized by a parent last year, but like I said above, this is an area that is extraordinarily diverse--I wouldn't be surprised if there were widespread pressure to cancel the event and the one who did the criticizing was simply a spokesperson. And this principal is hardly alone--most schools down here are moving away from this sort of thing, as the article also notes.

Christian nuts see Christmas as a religious holiday and see attempts to squash it as an attack on their religion.

Other religious nuts see Christmas as a christian religious holiday that belittles their own religious freedom.

Non-religious nuts see Christmas as a religious holiday that treads on their belief in the separation of church and state.

I wish I could gather all the nutcases from all sides of this issue and gas them with Happy Medium Gas(patent pending) and make them understand that:

Christmas is a secular holiday. It is a celebration of Peace on Earth and Good Will Toward Men. It's a day where we try to be a little better as people, try to be a little more generous and a little more forgiving. It's a wonderful holiday. A holiday hijacked by religious wackos who concocted a fable that Jesus Christ was born on December 25th. Even if you believe that fable, so what? Christ(whether you worship him or not) is a symbol of what Christmas represents. Not the other way around.

Then before they come to, I'd strip them naked, tie tiny bells to strategic locations and drop them off in Times Square.

:D

I dont know about you people, but I dont remember that much 'work' in elementary school. I remember, "All right kids, now write a WHOLE PARAGRAPH about what you want to be when you grow up", followed by, "Alright, playtime!"
Of course, that is dead and gone now. Now we have "Do your math" followed by, "Alright, time for the math test!"
They probobly axed Oregon Trail day to. The bastards.

Looking back, I remember how careful our school was to be non-denominational in its holiday celebrations. We did plays from a few religions, and had a lot of fun doing it.

As mentioned by the above poster, certain Christian holidays have, gradually, become more like 'US holidays'. The 'celebrating the birth of Jesus' aspect of Christmas is rarely, if ever, mentioned these days. Now its about presents for kids, and presents and parties for adults. To say otherwise is silly.

I dont know about you people, but I dont remember that much 'work' in elementary school. I remember, "All right kids, now write a WHOLE PARAGRAPH about what you want to be when you grow up", followed by, "Alright, playtime!"
Of course, that is dead and gone now. Now we have "Do your math" followed by, "Alright, time for the math test!"

I certainly hope so. Kids need to learn how to work rather than this garbage play time. Middle school and high school are not about "Write a paragraph about what you want to be"; they are about "Write a 6-page paper on the literary devices used in To Kill a Mockingbird." There's no more "Let's make multiplication tables FUN!"; you instead have to face down "Factor (x^2)-1 using the correct method." Kids need to get used to that as early as possible so it doesn't seem so intimidating.

They probobly axed Oregon Trail day to. The bastards.

Good. Let them learn about how much fun the West was when they get home. I don't care how "educational" Oregon Trail and Sim City are. Kids need to accept that things won't always be stimulating to them.

Looking back, I remember how careful our school was to be non-denominational in its holiday celebrations. We did plays from a few religions, and had a lot of fun doing it.

As mentioned by the above poster, certain Christian holidays have, gradually, become more like 'US holidays'. The 'celebrating the birth of Jesus' aspect of Christmas is rarely, if ever, mentioned these days. Now its about presents for kids, and presents and parties for adults. To say otherwise is silly.

Not in the mainstream, it isn't. However, look at how many Americans go to church. It's mentioned there, and people are aware of it. It's certainly on a back-burner, but the fact that there are churches that connect the two mean that it is, on some level, a religious holiday. Don't like it? Celebrate Decemberween.

Good. Let them learn about how much fun the West was when they get home. I don't care how "educational" Oregon Trail and Sim City are. Kids need to accept that things won't always be stimulating to them.
So you're basically saying we should make education as uninteresting as possible to prepare children for their inevitably uninteresting lives? It's not like they play games for hours every week.

If they were to have their Xmas pageant, I'd be rallying to have a proper Saturnalia event, replete with nudity, free-flowing drink, and (simulated) live sex acts - in public, natch. How else to bring the return of the Sun, after all?

And if they don't like it, well- then they can keep their rituals behind closed doors, where they belong.

Okay, for starters, it's not like there aren't significant non-christian communities down here. I work in Boca and live south of there, and you're just as likely to see symbols for Hanukah and Ramadan and every other damn holiday as you are to see Christmas stuff, so it's not like this is a case of one parent objecting, no matter how the paper spins it.

Secondly, here's the money quote for me:
There's a big difference between learning about Kwanzaa and dreidels and singing about Santa and Rudolph. You can learn about Christmas traditions without singing the songs--you'll get a better sense of the tradition if you do, frankly.

But this isn't about learning. It's only dressed up that way to try to elicit sympathy for the cause. It's about putting kids in the uncomfortable situation where they may be asked to set themselves apart so others can celebrate their holiday in front of them.
not only that, but why remove any mention of "Christmas" or "Easter?" because some parents dont want anything religious in the school system? ISN'T KWANZAA and DREIDELS, conncected to RELIGIOUS Celebrations and RELIGIOUS THEMED holidays? so they're teaching some religions yet silencing others... exscuse me, but that is in violation of the FIRST AMENDMENT that states that the Government cannot endorce "or so any preferrence" to ANY RELIGION. some f*#king "WALL OF SEPERATION BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE"

Boo hoo. Like I care about some kids with broken expectations. It's not like they can't celebrate Christmas now, or that they're being fed to lions.

So you're basically saying we should make education as uninteresting as possible to prepare children for their inevitably uninteresting lives? It's not like they play games for hours every week.

Not to that extreme. What I am saying is that it should be as unstimulating as, say, what they expect to get in middle school, high school, and college. That way, they're used to it. That and we need way more subject material in some areas. Some schools do fine with this; others need to ramp it up. But I digress. And are people's lives after school really that interesting?

not only that, but why remove any mention of "Christmas" or "Easter?" because some parents dont want anything religious in the school system? ISN'T KWANZAA and DREIDELS, conncected to RELIGIOUS Celebrations and RELIGIOUS THEMED holidays? so they're teaching some religions yet silencing others... exscuse me, but that is in violation of the FIRST AMENDMENT that states that the Government cannot endorce "or so any preferrence" to ANY RELIGION. some f*#king "WALL OF SEPERATION BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE"

Here's the difference. Learning about holidays--including Christmas--is not a problem as long as it's done in the context of teaching about different cultures and their various traditions. In fact, I think it's helpful, especially at a young age, for kids to uderstand that there is a world outside Mommy and Daddy and the television. So I encourage the teaching of holiday traditions--as long as it's done in that context.

A christmas pageant is a completely different animal, and I shouldn't have to explain the difference.

Boo hoo. Like I care about some kids with broken expectations. It's not like they can't celebrate Christmas now, or that they're being fed to lions.

This could have been handled far better than it was, such as not planning for a pageant in the first place. Kids will get over a change being made a lot more quickly than they will get over having the rug pulled out from underneath them. That and I assure you that some time and money was already expended on this. Why not just go all the way and make it the last one? That ought to shut some people up.

If they were to have their Xmas pageant, I'd be rallying to have a proper Saturnalia event, replete with nudity, free-flowing drink, and (simulated) live sex acts - in public, natch. How else to bring the return of the Sun, after all?

And if they don't like it, well- then they can keep their rituals behind closed doors, where they belong.

That's the one for Wilton Manors, not for Palm Beach. :p

This could have been handled far better than it was, such as not planning for a pageant in the first place.

Hindsight is 20/20.

Kids will get over a change being made a lot more quickly than they will get over having the rug pulled out from underneath them.

They'll get over it in either case. Really, weren't you just talking about how they don't need to be mollycoddled with pointless things like the Oregon Trail? But they do, with regards to their delicate sensibilities?

If they were to have their Xmas pageant, I'd be rallying to have a proper Saturnalia event, replete with nudity, free-flowing drink, and (simulated) live sex acts - in public, natch. How else to bring the return of the Sun, after all?

And if they don't like it, well- then they can keep their rituals behind closed doors, where they belong.
Sure, why not...
The Saturnalia was a large and important public festival in Rome. It involved the conventional sacrifices, a couch (lectisternium) set out in front of the temple of Saturn and the untying of the ropes that bound the statue of Saturn during the rest of the year. oh, wait... do you have a santified Church of SATURN? duly registered and reconized by the government of the United States? No? well, get it registered... Quickly!

marked chiefly by having masters and slaves switch placeshmm... no slaves... but would prisoners work? you know... the non-violent ones?

Really, weren't you just talking about how they don't need to be mollycoddled with pointless things like the Oregon Trail? But they do, with regards to their delicate sensibilities?

I referred to canceling it to begin with, as in never planning it. It's one thing not to coddle them. It's another to completely flip them the bird. They're students, not prison inmates, and just because they're there to work doesn't mean that the school can rectify its mistake by punishing kids who were already working on this.

That said, if kids don't take time out of the school day to perform this sort of thing and it's strictly extracurricular, it's not as insane. I wasn't clear on if this pageant involved taking up school time.

Here's the difference. Learning about holidays--including Christmas--is not a problem as long as it's done in the context of teaching about different cultures and their various traditions. In fact, I think it's helpful, especially at a young age, for kids to uderstand that there is a world outside Mommy and Daddy and the television. So I encourage the teaching of holiday traditions--as long as it's done in that context.

A christmas pageant is a completely different animal, and I shouldn't have to explain the difference.
really, so learing about Intelligent Design is no problem for you since it is one of the facets of Christian Beliefs. also learning about the various fables and traditions as described in the BIBLE?

However, instead of trying to silence people, why not include their traditions into the pagent. say, Christmas for one year, next year have KWANZAA, the next, a Jewish celebration... etc...

the best way to learn is to make it fun and enjoyable for the kids. even to the point in getting some expose to those other cultures and customs... welll those that don't break the law.

really, so learing about Intelligent Design is no problem for you since it is one of the facets of Christian Beliefs. also learning about the various fables and traditions as described in the BIBLE?If it's taught in a religion class, then sure, it's fine. Of course, ID is never taught in a religion class, so it really doesn't matter, now does it?

However, instead of trying to silence people, why not include their traditions into the pagent. say, Christmas for one year, next year have KWANZAA, the next, a Jewish celebration... etc...

the best way to learn is to make it fun and enjoyable for the kids. even to the point in getting some expose to those other cultures and customs... welll those that don't break the law.
If you think you can get fundy christian parents to go along with a multi-cultural pageant, then go get 'em, tiger. Somehow I think they'll be pissier about it than the atheists are.

If it's taught in a religion class, then sure, it's fine. Of course, ID is never taught in a religion class, so it really doesn't matter, now does it?and where was Kawanzaa taught? or Drediles?

If you think you can get fundy christian parents to go along with a multi-cultural pageant, then go get 'em, tiger. Somehow I think they'll be pissier about it than the atheists are.not really. the Athiests and Agnostics as well should be just as "Pissy" because they would still have "Religion crammed down their throat"

Oh and Add to that that it was an Athiest who shut down a pagent because of the name CHRISTMAS.