NationStates Jolt Archive

To take one example,

King James Version, Second Kings 2:23-24

23: And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up that way, there came forth little children of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; Go up, thou bald head.

24: And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood and tare forty and two children of them.

So, mocking some dude warrants a punishment from God involving killing 42 children with cursed bears.

How can Judao-Christians justify such a deity? "God works in mysterious ways?" "It's all part of His plan?" "Just have faith, you'll feel better in the morning?"

And of course, there's that bit about killing all the first-born children in Egypt. That's a nice one. Certain religious folk today are happy to use their faith to decry abortion as murder of innocent children, but the God that they worship did the same thing. Hypocrisy?

There's no such religion as Judeo-Christian. Muslims also worship the same God as Jews and Christians.

So, mocking some dude warrants a punishment from God involving killing 42 children with cursed bears.

How can Judao-Christians justify such a deity? "God works in mysterious ways?" "It's all part of His plan?" "Just have faith, you'll feel better in the morning?"

And of course, there's that bit about killing all the first-born children in Egypt. That's a nice one. Certain religious folk today are happy to use their faith to decry abortion as murder of innocent children, but the God that they worship did the same thing. Hypocrisy?

He punished Adam and Eve for eating the Apple of Knowledge. That's like punishing a kid for learning to read, to give an example closer to home.

He punished Adam and Eve for eating the Apple of Knowledge. That's like punishing a kid for learning to read, to give an example closer to home.

I just had a thought.

assuming that the Christian religion is false s**t (which I am not saying it is...), could that have been something to make the churchgoers ignore knowledge and blindly follow the Church?

The tribes of Israel committing genocide at God's behest was another barrel of laughs that counter indicated God's goodness.

The point of this thread isn't a, Christians or whoever are evil, bashing.

I'm just curious as to how believers reconcile the record of God's cruelty with his supposed good nature.

There's no such religion as Judeo-Christian. Muslims also worship the same God as Jews and Christians.

I'm aware of that.

The point of this thread isn't a, Christians or whoever are evil, bashing.

I'm just curious as to how believers reconcile the record of God's cruelty with his supposed good nature.



I'm aware of that.

Gos is the most good thing to ever exist.....because he's the one who's supposedly defining what's good and what's not. His rules, not mine. Plus, he seems to have been going to some anger management lately. That or he stopped caring so much.

theres no need to take it all literally. its unlikely that god ever really called a bear down to kill naughty children.

theres no need to take it all literally. its unlikely that god ever really called a bear down to kill naughty children.

Okay, so God metaphorically kills kids. This is held as part of a moral guideline for billions of people.

He punished Adam and Eve for eating the Apple of Knowledge. That's like punishing a kid for learning to read, to give an example closer to home.

...or torturing and executing a certain Mister Smith for learning about himself.

...of course, the question of how Adam and Eve were meant to know that eating of the Tree of Knowledge was a bad thing, without having gained the understanding of 'sin' by eating it continues to elude a poor fool like me, but that's probably just renegade theology for you.

The point of this thread isn't a, Christians or whoever are evil, bashing.

I'm just curious as to how believers reconcile the record of God's cruelty with his supposed good nature.



I'm aware of that.

I believe the most common response is that it's a parable, and that it didn't really happen.

The lesson that the parable would be trying to teach was that if you're an ass to someone on the basis of something rather arbitrary, you're going to get that back a hundred-fold, somehow.

And THIS is why I am a dysthiest.

I believe the most common response is that it's a parable, and that it didn't really happen.

...or to take it more literally, it only appears to us poor foolish morts as evil, but really from the (true and eternal) divine perspective it's all good.

I believe the most common response is that it's a parable, and that it didn't really happen.

The lesson that the parable would be trying to teach was that if you're an ass to someone on the basis of something rather arbitrary, you're going to get that back a hundred-fold, somehow.

Sorta like Karma! Except with 6000% interest. Interesting.

And of course with the first-born in Egypt, the lesson is that if your government does something harsh, innocent children will get it. In the ass.

...or torturing and executing a certain Mister Smith for learning about himself.

:confused: Huh?

Anyways, the thing about the Tree Of Knowledge that confuses me is that God is all-knowing, so he should have known that Adam and Eve were going to eat from it, but he put it in there anyways and tells them not to and the security at the gates of the Garden of Eden was crappy because Satan got in, and then God gets angry at Adam and Eve for eating the fruit when he should have known all along that they were going to eat from it so therefore should never have put it there in the first place!!! :headbang: Not only does the Abrahamic God seem to be megalomaniacal and capitalist in some senses, he's hiding crap from humanity!

:mad:

Sorta like Karma! Except with 6000% interest. Interesting.
Reasonably good description.

Good /=/ nice.

And as for abortion, God can do whatever He wishes. We are only to do what He commands. He commands us to protect the unborn, or at least to punish harm done to the unborn. If He wants to punish them for their works or hearts, He is allowed to. We are only allowed to punish some works.

:confused: Huh?

Winston. See also A Brave New World or We for modern retellings.*






* all carrying the less than subtle hint that at best Adam and Eve were suffering from false consciousness prior to the Fall.

:confused: Huh?

Anyways, the thing about the Tree Of Knowledge that confuses me is that God is all-knowing, so he should have known that Adam and Eve were going to eat from it, but he put it in there anyways and tells them not to and the security at the gates of the Garden of Eden was crappy because Satan got in, and then God gets angry at Adam and Eve for eating the fruit when he should have known all along that they were going to eat from it so therefore should never have put it there in the first place!!! :headbang: Not only does the Abrahamic God seem to be megalomaniacal and capitalist in some senses, he's hiding crap from humanity!

:mad:


which is why it doesnt pay to overthink these stories.

the story of the garden of eden is a simple explanation of why life sucks. it coulda been good but things went wrong and this sucky life is the result

some people blame god, some blame satan (as the serpent), some blame eve. in the end, there is no one to blame, its just a story. its not meant to be taken literally.

Good /=/ nice.

And as for abortion, God can do whatever He wishes. We are only to do what He commands. He commands us to protect the unborn, or at least to punish harm done to the unborn. If He wants to punish them for their works or hearts, He is allowed to. We are only allowed to punish some works.

We are not only to do what He commands. He gave us free will and I doubt he cares about the fetus in its parasite state (before the 19th week, after which the fetus gets consciousness (and thus, a soul, IMO).

To take one example,



So, mocking some dude warrants a punishment from God involving killing 42 children with cursed bears.

How can Judao-Christians justify such a deity? "God works in mysterious ways?" "It's all part of His plan?" "Just have faith, you'll feel better in the morning?"

And of course, there's that bit about killing all the first-born children in Egypt. That's a nice one. Certain religious folk today are happy to use their faith to decry abortion as murder of innocent children, but the God that they worship did the same thing. Hypocrisy?

God doesn't follow our rules. What he does is not necessarily what we like, but what is probably better in the long run. Also, I believe many of the stories such as this one are just designed to scare people into believing. But not all of them are.

We are not only to do what He commands. He gave us free will and I doubt he cares about the fetus in its parasite state (before the 19th week, after which the fetus gets consciousness (and thus, a soul, IMO).

Why does consciousness = soul?

We have free will, but we are obligated to follow His commands. If we do not, there will be consequenses, and they will be far from pleasant.

Why does consciousness = soul?

We have free will, but we are obligated to follow His commands. If we do not, there will be consequenses, and they will be far from pleasant.

Yeah infinite punishment for a finite sin ... something wrong with that in my opinion

Good /=/ nice.

And as for abortion, God can do whatever He wishes. We are only to do what He commands. He commands us to protect the unborn, or at least to punish harm done to the unborn. If He wants to punish them for their works or hearts, He is allowed to. We are only allowed to punish some works.

First of all, as I've said to you already, all good things are nice but not all nice things are good.
Secondly, explain why this is a fine and not the death penalty:
22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [a] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.

Footnotes:

Exodus 21:22 Or she has a miscarriage

Yeah infinite punishment for a finite sin ... something wrong with that in my opinion

If sin were in a single action, of course there would be something wrong with it. But that's not what the Bible teaches. It says that the only reason you were able to commit that particular sin is because there is sin in your heart.

You are not a sinner because you sin; you sin because you are a sinner.

First of all, as I've said to you already, all good things are nice but not all nice things are good.
Secondly, explain why this is a fine and not the death penalty:

All good things are nice? Is punishment good? Yes. Is punishment nice? No, unless you're a sadist or something.

22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [a] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.

Footnotes:

Exodus 21:22 Or she has a miscarriage

First, who said the death penalty was not fine? I'm all for the death penalty. In fact, if you read on, the punishment for harm (not to the mother only, harm in general) is to be eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life.

Why does consciousness = soul?

We have free will, but we are obligated to follow His commands. If we do not, there will be consequenses, and they will be far from pleasant.

Consciousness is soul because that is what makes humans special. That is the only thing that soul could be, frankly. Think: that is what seperates humans from animals. That is what makes you more important than the worms, in God's eye.

We are not obligated to follow his wishes in some senses, but we are in the more colloquial sense (to what you refer).

And who knows what God truly wants? Unless you can read fluent Aramaic, you won't even know what jesus proportedly wanted. You can never trust the translations. Even they have errors, unintentional or otherwise.

Maybe God is a liberal. Personally, I know that God is DEFINETLY not some macho man. Just look around for proof there. With all of the beauty in the world and the universe, God is not a manly 'retrosexual' type of person.

So before you say we must follow God's command, know that we might already be.

Christians try to say that God is merciful but anyone who looks in the Bible knows that is false. Under the Law there are many crimes that give the death penalty. All the pagan tribes who were occupying the Holy Land were slaughtered by the Israelites. Plenty of examples of God getting angry and exacting revenge by killing untold thousands (not to mention the Flood).

Hard to claim any kind of mercy when if you disobey then you die.

He punished Adam and Eve for eating the Apple of Knowledge. That's like punishing a kid for learning to read, to give an example closer to home.

This is why I prefer the story of Prometheus and his Gift to Humanity.

Consciousness is soul because that is what makes humans special. That is the only thing that soul could be, frankly. Think: that is what seperates humans from animals. That is what makes you more important than the worms, in God's eye.

What about the unconcious person lying in the hospital bed. They're brain dead. Do they no longer have a soul?

We are not obligated to follow his wishes in some senses, but we are in the more colloquial sense (to what you refer).

I didn't realize there was more than one sense.

And who knows what God truly wants? Unless you can read fluent Aramaic, you won't even know what jesus proportedly wanted. You can never trust the translations. Even they have errors, unintentional or otherwise.

If you look at all the translations over the years, the message has remained the same. The only things that have changed are inconsequential: a missing preposition or added article.

Maybe God is a liberal. Personally, I know that God is DEFINETLY not some macho man. Just look around for proof there. With all of the beauty in the world and the universe, God is not a manly 'retrosexual' type of person.

Well, since God has no gender...

So before you say we must follow God's command, know that we might already be.

If the Bible is God's word, it's quite obvious we are not following it.

most of this thread is opinion-based, so I won't bother responding to that

what I will respond to is Minaris' last comment...

There are only a few parts of the bible that are in Aramaic, found only in the Old Testament very sporadically (i.e., in the few passages that were written by non-believers. The only one I can remember is a passage in Daniel that is written by King Nebuchaddnezzer of Babylon about some of the things Daniel had done) The rest of the Old Testament is written in... (3 guesses...) Hebrew. All of the New Testament was written in Greek, which brings me to my actual point:

I'm studying Greek right now. Well, not right now. I'm in the process of procrastinating and avoiding studying for my Greek test that is tomorrow morning. In about a year, maybe two, I will be fluently reading the language of the original Gospels. In fact, the Bible is one of the main texts for teaching Greek here. I'll let you know how well the translations hold up then.

God is conservative by definition. according to modern poltical definitions, He may be liberal, but in the actual meaning of the word (one favoring traditional views or values) He's as conservative as it gets.

....of course, the question of how Adam and Eve were meant to know that eating of the Tree of Knowledge was a bad thing, without having gained the understanding of 'sin' by eating it continues to elude a poor fool like me, but that's probably just renegade theology for you.

All I can figure is that the punishment wasn't because eating the fruit was just "a bad thing." They weren't ejected from the Garden for doing something naughty. What they knew was that God said not to eat of the fruit of the Tree. What they did was disobey. But what does it mean for people without the knowledge that disobedience of God is bad to disobey? As far as I can see, it means that they didn't trust God, pure and simple. And that lack of trust - that lack of faith, lack of love - was why they could not remain in fellowship with God. So in effect, eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (NOT just "knowledge," I must emphasize) showed them only what good they had already lost. It's just like we so often understand how great something is only when it's gone - eating of the Tree showed them that sudden contrast between their present distrust and their previous trust in God... how they had mistreated and devalued their relationship with their Creator. No wonder they were ashamed and hid.

I'll let you know how well the translations hold up then.
Arguments about translation pose little difficulty. Anyone with knowledge of Greek can double-check the work of scholars - it's a little silly to accuse thousands of people, Christian and non-Christian, of a massive conspiracy to mis-translate, just because they can read the language and the rest of us can't.

The real issue is not translation, but transmission. It's the question of how well the texts have survived being copied by hand over millenia. And if we can accept the usual estimations of accuracy ("pretty good") derived from analysis of textual errors in the manuscript tradition, the real real problem is whether or not Jesus said and did what his disciples wrote down. And you'll find all kinds of opinions on that.


I'm studying Greek right now. Well, not right now. I'm in the process of procrastinating and avoiding studying for my Greek test that is tomorrow morning.
Whee, me too! Only my test isn't till Thursday.

God doesn't follow our rules. What he does is not necessarily what we like, but what is probably better in the long run.

So, faith in God, despite the fact that we pretty much know for sure that killing 42 children because some holy man feels offended is an evil act. Terroristic, really.

Clearly it seems he DOES follow our rules - petty vengence and wanton cruelty.

According to the Bible, anyway.

So, faith in God, despite the fact that we pretty much know for sure that killing 42 children because some holy man feels offended is an evil act. Terroristic, really.

Clearly it seems he DOES follow our rules - petty vengence and wanton cruelty.

According to the Bible, anyway.

Oh, of course. Right in the OT it specifically says god is a jealous and vengeful god. How you can be jealous and vengeful and still be a perfect being is beyond be and my small mind's comprehension, even though jealousy and vengefulness are products of said small mind. In general you'd think a higher being would be above all those things.

Ah, Christianity, the religion of "take two platitudes and don't call me." The treatment of Cain, Job, Judas etc. has always bewildered me. If I had been abused as Job was abused, I certainly wouldn't go crawling back to God and ask to be forgiven, forgiven for what? A legitimate question? I find the Judeo-Christian-Islamic version of God to be a bogeyman to scare children. I want nothing to do with it.

Whether or not god is good doesn't matter. Its his followers that you have to worry about.