NationStates Jolt Archive

So sayeth three gospels of the Bible

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

But not in the Gospel of John.

Two questions:

Why is it not mentioned in John?

and

Did it really happen? I mean, if it really happened there'd be some sort of Jewish historical record saying on this day the veil that seperated Man and God was torn.

Just curious. :)

It's probably in Luke and Matthew because they used the same source text--Mark and the Q gospel. But even they don't have the same stories all the time, which may explain why it didn't show up in John. They picked and chose what stories they wanted to use.

Definitely didn't happen. The veil wasn't torn. It was folded up neatly and put in a drawer. Veils aren't cheap, you know. :p

Definitely didn't happen. The veil wasn't torn. It was folded up neatly and put in a drawer. Veils aren't cheap, you know. :p

Of course! I forgot God had a budget. ;)

So sayeth three gospels of the Bible

But not in the Gospel of John.

Two questions:

Why is it not mentioned in John?

and

Did it really happen? I mean, if it really happened there'd be some sort of Jewish historical record saying on this day the veil that seperated Man and God was torn.

Just curious. :)

Mind if I stick my 'Christian' head on for a minute?

John doesn't mention it, because John concentrates on the spiritual side of the story, not the mortal physical side.

How's that?

Of course! I forgot God had a budget. ;)

He's not Spielberg, after all.

But not in the Gospel of John.

Two questions:

Why is it not mentioned in John?

and

Did it really happen? I mean, if it really happened there'd be some sort of Jewish historical record saying on this day the veil that seperated Man and God was torn.

Just curious. :)

Mind if I stick my 'Christian' head on for a minute?

John doesn't mention it, because John concentrates on the spiritual side of the story, not the mortal physical side.

How's that?

Thats one question down :). And yeah that does make a lot of sense.

Thats one question down :). And yeah that does make a lot of sense.

I may be a godless heathen, but I get there honestly.

I only differ with the scripture where I think it doesn't work, or it is too much of a stretch to force it to. This sort of thing, I can work 'in character' :)

I may be a godless heathen, but I get there honestly.

I only differ with the scripture where I think it doesn't work, or it is too much of a stretch to force it to. This sort of thing, I can work 'in character' :)

Oooh! "Graven Idol - The Biblical Roleplaying Game" - from the folks who brought you Hackmaster...

It's probably in Luke and Matthew because they used the same source text--Mark and the Q gospel.

it's a damn shame they didn't cite sources and mark quotes in these writings - it would save a bunch of time now.

at least the author of luke mentioned that he was using other sources.

Oooh! "Graven Idol - The Biblical Roleplaying Game" - from the folks who brought you Hackmaster...

That's not a bad idea...

I'll let you know how it works out... I guess you'll want royalties, right?

Oh yay, more religous crap.

Oh yay, more religous crap.

Oh yeah? well you stink. :p

So sayeth three gospels of the Bible





And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

But not in the Gospel of John.

Two questions:

Why is it not mentioned in John?

and

Did it really happen? I mean, if it really happened there'd be some sort of Jewish historical record saying on this day the veil that seperated Man and God was torn.

Just curious. :)

I would say:

1) It isn't mentioned in John because the author didn't think it was necessary/conducive/relevant to the message he was preaching. The Gospels were never intended by the authors to be accurate biographical accounts.

2) It's impossible to know for sure but I'd say no, it didn't happen. The temple was destroyed in 70AD so the Gospels were probably written after its demolition when nobody could confirm the report. This rending of the veil sounds like a purely symbolic event to me.

Alternatively, it's not inconceivable if the veil was rent that the priests would have covered it up (if that was possible) and swiftly produced a replacement. Basically I don't know. :)

EDIT: Just for the record I, like Grave, am an atheist but I think it's also clear from a Christian perspective that Matthew is mirroring the events of Exodus to present Jesus as the new Moses.

Thats one question down :). And yeah that does make a lot of sense.

Apparently, the tearing of the veil is mentioned in extra-biblical sources (unusually - judea being a not especially important province of the Empire, who'd be interested in it/write about it/ be luck enough to have their writings survive without anorganisation dedicated to their preservation?)

The Temple Veil Torn (Matthew 27:51a)

Matt. 27:51a. Immediately after Jesus shouted tetelestai and chose to die physically, the veil of the Temple was "torn in two from top to bottom."

There is extra-biblical evidence for this event also. Roman historian Tacitus (Hist. V. 13), Jewish historian Josephus (Wars of the Jews VI, 5, 3) and the Jewish Talmud (Jer. Yoma 43c; Yoma 39b) all make reference to some "great catastrophe, betokening the impending destruction of the Temple, (that) had occurred in the Sanctuary about this very time." [5]

[5] Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1973), Part 2, p. 610.


http://www.xenos.org/teachings/nt/john/gary/john19-2.htm

Key point is that references are given by the website author(s?) - checkable :)

That's not a bad idea...

I'll let you know how it works out... I guess you'll want royalties, right?

No, I just want to GM a game...

Could it be that cloth rots, even inside. Therefore it would have had to be replaced regularly. So, replacing it wouldn't have been noteworthy.

The veil of the Kaaba is replaced every year. Maybe something like that was done at the temple.

Oh yeah? well you stink. :p

:eek:

Nu-uh!