NationStates Jolt Archive

Come one, come all, it's the big stand-off between the two doomsday theories.

Which is the bigger threat to Europe, and Western Civilisation in general?

Immigration from Muslim countries - or the reemergence of xenophobic and racist mass movements and political parties?

the second one, most definitely. cultures generally survive better with infusion of new elements rather than stagnating and withering from conservatism.

A combination of both, I guess. Because muslim immigration ensures the rising of rightwing movements, as long as the current relationship between Islam and the West doesn't change.

The immigration of Islamofascists, a large portion of all total Muslim immigration.

The immigration of Islamofascists, a large portion of all total Muslim immigration.

you're another unsubtle UNA puppet aren't you?

First--Islamofacist is a Bushite absurdity, Islam even Radical Islamic Extremism is nothing like Facism to cite one example Islam is completely de-centralized.

Second I choose "Other" as it is Human Beings which are clearly the biggest problem.

the second one, most definitely. cultures generally survive better with infusion of new elements rather than stagnating and withering from conservatism.

IDK about that, china has been around the longest and their culture 50 years ago was essentially their culture 1000 years ago. Of course this is not to say that i went for option number 1.

And why don't these movements, like the BNP in Britain, the Danish People's Party, Swiss People's Party, the NPD in Germany and so on, get the same treatment and aren't as publically recognised as a threat as "the Muslims (tm)"?

Shouldn't we be spending a lot more time and effort on fighting a war against xenophobia, rather than a war against terror?

I mean, look at this case here (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,438685,00.html). If this had been some random German guy getting attacked by Muslims because he was an infidel, I'd dare say that it might have gotten a lot more attention. And I'd dare say the attackers wouldn't be out on the street right now.

Nationality, race, etc. are all tribalist absurdities that we would do better without. It is both irrational and immoral to make decisions based on them.

People should be allowed to immigrate anywhere.

And why don't these movements, like the BNP in Britain, the Danish People's Party, Swiss People's Party, the NPD in Germany and so on, get the same treatment and aren't as publically recognised as a threat as "the Muslims (tm)"?

cuz they don't wear funny clothes or speak funny languages or have perma-tanned skin. you can't identify them walking down the street unless they're demonstrating.

Clearly, Myrthzilla is the largest threat that Europe has faced since the Mongol Hordes.

Both of these threats pale by comparison to global warming ...

Nationality, race, etc. are all tribalist absurdities that we would do better without. It is both irrational and immoral to make decisions based on them.

People should be allowed to immigrate anywhere.

I agree, so long as they pose no threat to the place they're immigrating to. i.e., ex-convicts, people carrying contagious diseases rare in the country they're going to, etc., should be inspected thoroughly first.

Clearly, Myrthzilla is the largest threat that Europe has faced since the Mongol Hordes.

Myrthzilla ravaged Europe. He killed all he saw and raped anything he found appealling. Each city was left with nothing but ruins and a pile of shattered egos.

I see nothing wrong with xenophobywhaty.

Muslims are the bad people.

The re-emergence of xenophobic and racist mass movements and political parties. It is already gaining momentum.

Frankly, I think the largest threat to the western world is one very unexpected thing: Big Buisness.


Most wars now are fought in the interest of Big buisnesses. Everything is for buisness and by buisness. In the example of the United States, if we keep out sourcing, we finally won't produce anything anymore, and then our economy, society, and ultimately nation, will collapse.

That is what I believe is the biggest threat to Western Society.

If anything, I fear the U.S. is going to become a totalitarian government...

If anything, I fear the U.S. is going to become a totalitarian government...

Your fears are not unfounded. I have the same reservations.

The last three posters need to whip out the tin foil hats and have a big ol’ “We Don’t Understand the World or the Way it Works so We Buy into Crazy Conspiracies Theories Party.”

As for xenophobia, it’s definitely a bad thing. It has a much more lethal history in the West than Islam. Though, I don’t dismiss fundamental Islamism as a threat any more than I dismiss fundamental Christianity or voting dumbasses in general as threats.

Cholesterol. :(

Cholesterol. :(

*gives LG a deep fried snickers to ease the pain*

The last three posters need to whip out the tin foil hats and have a big ol’ “We Don’t Understand the World or the Way it Works so We Buy into Crazy Conspiracies Theories Party.”

As for xenophobia, it’s definitely a bad thing. It has a much more lethal history in the West than Islam. Though, I don’t dismiss fundamental Islamism as a threat any more than I dismiss fundamental Christianity or voting dumbasses in general as threats.

*is already wearing a tin foil hat*

Beat you to it. :)


On a serious note, I agree. Neither xenophobia or religious fundamentalism (of any kind) should be taken lightly.

Or voting dumbasses in general. :p

First--Islamofacist is a Bushite absurdity, Islam even Radical Islamic Extremism is nothing like Facism to cite one example Islam is completely de-centralized.Whatever it is, there's nothing absurd about it. You know there's a difference between reality & ideology, right? I live in a socialist democracy, but that doesn't mean I'm either.

The Islamofascist crowd bears the nick because they want to see a sort of orthodox Islam-based fascist state. They didn't get the name because their dystopia exists.

Second I choose "Other" as it is Human Beings which are clearly the biggest problem.That much we can agree on. And between Islamofascists & the new populist/fascist/nazi parties in Europe, I'm not at all worried about the former, but starting to panic over the latter. Hell, if I had to pick my dystopia, I'm not sure I wouldn't rather live in the Islamofascist nightmare.

On a slightly related note, I've been noticing more & more over the last 10 years that the press in Northern Europe is becomming increasingly more Americanised. The focus has shifted from policy consequences to one-off stories, and from party politics to faces. I'd be surprised if 80% of my population could mention 5 ministers from the current government coalition.
10 years ago, I would've been surprised if they couldn't.

I think that kind of journalism, especially when it's infested the printed media (which it has), is what has enabled the new ultra nationalistic parties to win over so many people. None of them have any real policies, but they all take strong stands on popular non-issues, like 5 immigrants beating up a doorman in some ass-backwards village full of the North European equivalent of racist rednecks.

It's sad & pathetic, and scary as hell. And I hate how I feel more ignorant each day for having read the domestic news. Worse yet, I'm not sure I understand why it's happening. There's media consolidation here too, but it's nothing like in the US. We should still see competition on more than brand names.

Well.. Maybe the exiled NL can help me fathom it. He's usually an insightful lad.

*gives LG a deep fried snickers to ease the pain*

Yum! :D

If anything, I fear the U.S. is going to become a totalitarian government...

Same here man, same here. The PATRIOT ACT, the Torture Bill, all these things keep me thinking about 1984....

Clearly, Myrthzilla is the largest threat that Europe has faced since the Mongol Hordes.
A little respect please!
They prefer being referred to as mongoliberators.

As for xenophobia, it’s definitely a bad thing. It has a much more lethal history in the West than Islam.

The only reason for that is two men: Charles Martel and Jan III Sobieski.

Nationality, race, etc. are all tribalist absurdities that we would do better without. It is both irrational and immoral to make decisions based on them.

People should be allowed to immigrate anywhere.

Never. Not on my goddamn land.

Never. Not on my goddamn land.

How is it yours?

Whatever it is, there's nothing absurd about it. You know there's a difference between reality & ideology, right? I live in a socialist democracy, but that doesn't mean I'm either.

The Islamofascist crowd bears the nick because they want to see a sort of orthodox Islam-based fascist state. They didn't get the name because their dystopia exists.
.

No they do not.

A state based on Islam can not be Fascist it is impossible they do not connect. Fascism applies centralized power and Nationalism those are directly opposed to Islamic thinking Extremist or Otherwise.
It is a complete misnomre made to make sheeple connect radical Islamic Extremists withte Nazis. It is a construct of propaganda fo rthe simple minded.
I am not saying that Islamic Extremists are nota threat-I am saying they are not nor have they ever been Fascist--it continues to be absurd regardless of your protests.

The term Islamofacist is a fucking Media Sound Bite. Language is important because it effects directly how we perceive information.

The Islamic Extremist is more akin to seeking an Islamic clerical oligarchy not a fascist state.

How is it yours?

He's white.

How is it yours?

Us Europeans crushed the aborigines for this land.

Us Europeans crushed the aborigines for this land.

And how many aborigines did you "crush?" Oh wait, you weren't even born, and you're just taking credit for conquests committed by people whose only connection with you is race.

Fucking nazi shitbag.

Us Europeans crushed the aborigines for this land.

Might makes right, does it?

Same here man, same here. The PATRIOT ACT, the Torture Bill, all these things keep me thinking about 1984....

This concerns me as much or more than those

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoRjbIQMXGQ

And how many aborigines did you "crush?" Oh wait, you weren't even born, and you're just taking credit for conquests committed by people whose only connection with you is race.

Fucking nazi shitbag.

In your face.

Might makes right, does it?

It did back then.

Never. Not on my goddamn land.
The only way you can legitimately own land is if you buy it with money that you earned by providing some value to your fellow man.

And even that is disputed at times.

In your face.

Snappy comeback. Just remember, the Nazis lost. They'll lose again. And the best you can ever hope for is sitting here masturbating to the glory days of the Third Reich and whining about the evil Russians who Crushed "your" (sorry, no offense to the real Germans on this board) people.

Both of these threats pale by comparison to global warming ...

Not to worry the pale problems will get nicely tanned after the weather warms up and they can sunbathe

Not to worry the pale problems will get nicely tanned after the weather warms up and they can sunbathe

I think tans have to do with UV radiation...

It did back then.

So why do the morals of centuries ago apply today?

So why do the morals of centuries ago apply today?

Because I say so.

Come one, come all, it's the big stand-off between the two doomsday theories.

Which is the bigger threat to Europe, and Western Civilisation in general?

Immigration from Muslim countries - or the reemergence of xenophobic and racist mass movements and political parties?
immigrants that don't confirm to a nations identity!

Because I say so.

I see.

The inevitable penetration of European politics by the Islamic far right-wing and the white far right-wing.

Biggest threat? America. With that stupid new law they just passed, they've created millions more 'extremists' who want to target 'the West' with bombs. I was tempted myself after that (and I'm not muslim, I'm in fact undergoing a Christian confirmation process), but I don't want killing ANYONE on my conscience.

Any number of votes forthe first proves the second is most dangerous.

Any number of votes forthe first proves the second is most dangerous.

You win. :)

the second one, most definitely. cultures generally survive better with infusion of new elements rather than stagnating and withering from conservatism.

yep like, the native american culture, asian culture, african tribe culture, every other culture europeans conquered. they are just as well off as before the europeans came in.

If anything, I fear the U.S. is going to become a totalitarian government...

Erm, possibly. But I don't think it will, for several reasons:
1) Elections: The United States continues to have elections. People have said there is massive fraud, which I'm sure has basis in fact, but so far I have seen no examples cited. The midterm elections are in about six weeks. Americans are clearly disturbed by what they see, and the elections should show that.
2) Term limits: The one I have in mind is for the presidency. George Bush has (rightly) become the poster child for modern American imperialism/totalitarianism. But he cannot stay president forever, unless he changes the Constitution. That brings me to the third point, which is
3) the Constitution: True, the Constitution cannot defend itself against those who misuse it or simply ignore it, both of which have happened. But, it is a very clear document, and eventually the breaches that have been made will be noticed.
4) American knowledge of how our government actually works: Kidding!
5) End of the War on Terror: Anyone who watched the presidential debates must have noticed that President Bush began with "everything changed after 9/11". (Actually, that is likely a misquote; he might have said Sept. 11 or Sept. 11, 2001. But that's the basic idea). Eventually, it will be noticed that Iraq has actually very little to do with the War on Terror, and that trials probably don't hurt our national security. Also, the terrorist groups the United States originally attacked have been weakened. There is certainly an upsurge, but I adimit, I don't know if that's al-Qaida or a new group, or just angry individuals. You can only have a war for so long before people start to wonder why we're fighting anyway.
6) Rest of the world: Despite what the rest of the world might think, the United States still listens to you. True, what you say may go unheeded, but international laws, international bodies, and just the international opinion of the United States will affect what it does. Remember, in 1984 Oceania could be totalitarian only because the other two superpowers were too.

That, in short, is why I doubt the emergence of a totalitarian US. The reason some may think it is coming the same reason some think Christians are intolerant, Muslims are violent, and big business is corrupt: in the news, you only hear about Pat Robertson, Osama bin Laden, and Enron. Similarly, you rarely hear about freedom of speech unless it is being surpressed, or voting rights unless they are being ignored.

Well.. Maybe the exiled NL can help me fathom it. He's usually an insightful lad.
As for the media...well, hard to say. As you pointed out, I'm exiled :p . So I haven't kept up with all the low-life media out there...I generally stick with more reputable outlets like Spiegel, Zeit and The Economist.

But the reasons that racist parties seem to become more and more fashionable, that's a thing I could speculate on:

Firstly, we should start by pointing out that Europe's always had its share of racists, even after WWII. It's not some sort of utopia, and there are plenty of arseholes around.
But parties and policies like we see today in several countries, that's fairly new, or at least goes against the wider trends.

To start with, every country will have its own domestic reasons. Specific events and actions by domestic governments can spawn such movements, for example the Danish People's Party, which can thank a scandal in a former Danish government for its existence. In Germany you could look at the failed integration of the former GDR - smart people have been leaving the area since 1945, and what's left over isn't the most intellectually open of environments.

Which brings us to the next reason: Europe's governments haven't exactly been outstanding the past few years. Scandal after scandal, the inability to deal with globalisation and the necessary economic restructuring, no more Soviets to unite against, etc etc. It just erodes any sort of confidence people might have into normal politicians.

Globalisation is the next one. The traditional class-based understanding of society is dead, and won't come back. And even if the untrained couldn't really expect to make it big in the 50s or 60s, at least they knew there would always be that job at a factory or whatever. Many defined themselves through those jobs. But they're falling away, and the whole economy is restructuring.

That also adds another problem for government - if your state identifies itself with a "Social Market Economy" in which the government is heavily involved, then a global economy that deprives the state of almost all its power to change economic variables is going to create issues of identity as well.

Then there's the EU. Especially in recent years scepticism has increased. Talkfest after talkfest, it doesn't seem to be able to solve any of the issues Europe is facing today. Add to that the general fear of change (eg giving away your currency - in Germany the myth that the Euro made everything more expensive is still around...the inflation data doesn't support it though). Plus, to people with a rudimentary (at best) understanding of history, the idea of giving up government power to a multinational entity must be scary.

So that's a whole lot of problems...now for the scapegoats. Immigration has increased, and compared to the 50s or 60s you'll undoubtedly see much more non-Europeans in Europe today. Integration has in recent years failed to a worrying extent. Past governments didn't want to realise that immigrants were a part of European society (which brings us back to the share of arseholes from above), and refused to do anything that could help in the future. Hell, in many European countries even today citizenship is still based on Jus sanguinis.

Foreigners will always be used as scapegoats. The media has certainly added to that by making stories about bad immigrants look worse than they were. That has only become more today as it is one of the most sure-fire ways of selling papers or ads around.

9/11 and this whole "war of cultures" idea has only added to it. Political Correctness went out the window to some extent, and people's prejudices started to mix with reasonable questions about the issue. And besides, the "us vs them" approach always works very well - and that doesn't account for foreigners who are more us than them.

And finally, there has been a greater number of quite smart heads who took charge of all these trends. From Pia Kjærsgaard over Pim Fortuyn to Udo Voigt, a few good thinkers in the right places give a whole new quality to extremist parties and policies.